Use of A or AN before words starting with U
Ralph M Jones
John Cranmer wrote:
>
> For example we say A UNIVERSITY but AN UMBRELLA. A quick look through
> the dictionary suggests that if the third letter of the noun is I then
> A is used otherwise we use AN.
>
> Is this correct.
>
> jo...@jacy.demon.co.uk
That's an interesting observation about the third letter of the word
determining which indefinite article is to be used. I can't think of
many exceptions on the spur of the moment.
The rule that I've always applied determines the article by the way that
the "u" is pronounced. If it's pronounced as though there's a hidden
"y" in front of the "u" (as in "usual" but not in "unusual") then you
use "a" otherwise, you use "an".
rmj
John Cranmer
Forgive me if this is a FAQ but I have been asked by a Dutch friend to
clarify the correct use of A or AN infront of nouns starting with the
letter U.
For example we say A UNIVERSITY but AN UMBRELLA. A quick look through
the dictionary suggests that if the third letter of the noun is I then
A is used otherwise we use AN.
Is this correct.
As I do not usually read this group an e-mail reply would be
appreciated but I will try to look hear over the next few days.
:
We are born naked, wet and hungry. Then it gets worse.
Markus Deill
>John Cranmer wrote:
>>
>> For example we say A UNIVERSITY but AN UMBRELLA. A quick look through
>> the dictionary suggests that if the third letter of the noun is I then
>> A is used otherwise we use AN.
>>
>> Is this correct.
No, you should use a question mark after an interrogative.
--
Markus Deill
J. Edward Sanchez
jo...@jacy.demon.co.uk (John Cranmer) wrote:
>Forgive me if this is a FAQ but I have been asked by a Dutch friend to
>clarify the correct use of A or AN infront of nouns starting with the
>letter U.
>
>For example we say A UNIVERSITY but AN UMBRELLA. A quick look through
>the dictionary suggests that if the third letter of the noun is I then
>A is used otherwise we use AN.
>
>Is this correct.
The rule is to use "an" when the next word starts with a vowel sound,
and "a" when the next word starts with a consonant sound.
"Umbrella" clearly starts with a vowel sound, the "short u".
"University", on the other hand, starts with "long u", as in
"yoonivertity". Since it starts with a "y" sound, it is preceded with
"an" instead of "a".
Other examples:
a ukelele
a unit
a use
an uncle
an udder
an undertaker
>As I do not usually read this group an e-mail reply would be
>appreciated but I will try to look hear over the next few days.
Posted and e-mailed at your request. Please don't reply by e-mail.
Edward
--
J. Edward Sanchez <je...@lightlink.com>
http://www.spiresoft.com/ (SoftArts)
http://www.spiresoft.com/jess/ (Edward's Place)
Daan Sandee
In article <32F7E2...@hal-pc.org> rmj...@hal-pc.org writes:
>John Cranmer wrote:
>>
>> For example we say A UNIVERSITY but AN UMBRELLA. A quick look through
>> the dictionary suggests that if the third letter of the noun is I then
>> A is used otherwise we use AN.
>
>determining which indefinite article is to be used. I can't think of
>many exceptions on the spur of the moment.
A unanimous rejection of what was
an unintentional joke ? Sheesh.
>The rule that I've always applied determines the article by the way that
>the "u" is pronounced. If it's pronounced as though there's a hidden
>"y" in front of the "u" (as in "usual" but not in "unusual") then you
>use "a" otherwise, you use "an".
Right. The pronunciation determines whether the article is "a" or "an."
This one, though it gets frequently asked, isn't in the FAQ. Probably
because it's too simple. The FAQ doesn't list elementary grammar rules
either.
Daan "learned this one in grade school - as a foreign language" Sandee
Burlington, MA Use this email address: sandee (at) east . sun . com
curtis cameron
John Cranmer wrote:
>
> For example we say A UNIVERSITY but AN UMBRELLA. A quick look through
> the dictionary suggests that if the third letter of the noun is I then
> A is used otherwise we use AN.
From the alt.usage.english FAQ:
> "A" is used before words beginning with consonants; "an", before
> words beginning with vowels. This is determined by sound, not
> spelling ("a history", "an hour", "a unit", "a European", "a one").
So your Dutch friend must know how the word is supposed to be
pronounced. If it starts with a vowel sound, use "a", and if it
starts with a consonant sound, regardless of which letter it
begins with, use "an". "Unit" begins with a "y" sound, "one"
begins with a "w" sound, "university" with a "y".
-Curtis Cameron
John Cranmer
Thanks of all the replies I had by e-mail and here. I now understand
The correct usage.
John
Richard Cochran
John Cranmer (jo...@jacy.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> Forgive me if this is a FAQ but I have been asked by a Dutch friend to
> clarify the correct use of A or AN infront of nouns starting with the
> letter U.
> For example we say A UNIVERSITY but AN UMBRELLA. A quick look through
> the dictionary suggests that if the third letter of the noun is I then
> A is used otherwise we use AN.
That rule holds for surprisingly many examples, even though it is not
the general rule. The general rule is: spelling is irrelevant, if the
PRONUNCIATION of the word begins with a consonant sound, use "a",
otherwise, use "an". University is pronounced as though it begins
with the consanant Y (Yewniversity), so it takes the article "A".
Some examples:
a univerisity
a unanimous verdict (breaks your "third letter I" rule)
an umbrella
an utterance
an ugly duckling
a Ukranian (breaks the "third letter I" rule)
a unique situation
an historic occasion (if you don't pronounce the "H" in "historic")
a historic occasion (if you DO pronounce the "H" in "historic")
Note the ambiguity with "historic". Since its pronunciation varies
regionally, the selection of "a" vs. "an" varies likewise.
--Rich
lanza
Yes, this phonetic, rather than ortographic, rule is in fact similar to
proper elision of the article "the" followed by a vowel sound or not.
Hence, using rough conversions: "tha boy," but "thee energetic boy."
Listen to Lord Larry speaking Shakespeare for numerous other examples.
--
******************************
"MUSS ES SEIN? ES MUSS SEIN."
--LvB
******************************
Rainer Thonnes
In article <5dbacl$m...@autodesk.autodesk.com>,
ri...@autodesk.com (Richard Cochran) writes:
> John Cranmer (jo...@jacy.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> > Forgive me if this is a FAQ but I have been asked by a Dutch friend to
> > clarify the correct use of A or AN infront of nouns starting with the
> > letter U.
>
> > For example we say A UNIVERSITY but AN UMBRELLA. A quick look through
> > the dictionary suggests that if the third letter of the noun is I then
> > A is used otherwise we use AN.
>
> That rule holds for surprisingly many examples, even though it is not
> the general rule. The general rule is: spelling is irrelevant, if the
> PRONUNCIATION of the word begins with a consonant sound, use "a",
> otherwise, use "an". University is pronounced as though it begins
> with the consanant Y (Yewniversity), so it takes the article "A".
Well said, and it would have been even better if the examples had included
one for which John's "rule" fails: An uninvited guest.
M.P.D.Simmons
On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Ralph M Jones wrote:
> John Cranmer wrote:
> >
> > For example we say A UNIVERSITY but AN UMBRELLA. A quick look through
> > the dictionary suggests that if the third letter of the noun is I then
> > A is used otherwise we use AN.
> >
> > Is this correct.
> >
> > jo...@jacy.demon.co.uk
>
> That's an interesting observation about the third letter of the word
> determining which indefinite article is to be used. I can't think of
> many exceptions on the spur of the moment.
>
> The rule that I've always applied determines the article by the way that
> the "u" is pronounced. If it's pronounced as though there's a hidden
> "y" in front of the "u" (as in "usual" but not in "unusual") then you
> use "a" otherwise, you use "an".
>
> rmj
>
* 'An' also has to appear before words which a silent 'h' before
vowels thus:
an hour an historical essay an honour and (US) an herb but
(Brit.) a herb
I've found, as a teacher of English as a Foreign Language, that while to
native speakers there is a supreme ease in using 'an' before a following
vowel sound (and it's the sound on the phoneme level which is crucuial,
not the orthographical level) for many people learning English it's quite
usual to use 'a' in such cases. If you or I tried this (if you are a
native speaker) you might find it jars.
Can anyone think of any other cases where 'an' is used apart from before a
vowel (at orthographic level), except when the sound is [ju:] or 'h'
precedes the vowel?
mpds
Larry Krakauer
M.P.D.Simmons wrote:
[...]
> * 'An' also has to appear before words which a silent 'h' before
> vowels thus:
>
> an hour an historical essay an honour and (US) an herb but
> (Brit.) a herb
The second case is also a US/British difference:
US (most dialects): a historical essay
Brit: an historical essay
That is, in the US, most people pronounce the "h" on "historical"
just as the British pronounce the "h" on "herb".
--
Larry Krakauer (lar...@kronos.com)
Philip Eden
Adrian Tan <as...@usyd.edu.au> wrote:
>M.P.D.Simmons wrote:
>
>> Can anyone think of any other cases where 'an' is used apart from before a
>> vowel (at orthographic level), except when the sound is [ju:] or 'h'
>> precedes the vowel?
>
>sound? "An MGM production", for instance.
>
>Adrian
And, of course, "an 11th hour reprieve".
Philip Eden
Rick Martin
Ah, but FAQ takes a different article depending on how you say FAQ
a fack
an eff-ay-cue
Rick
Adrian Tan
M.P.D.Simmons wrote:
> Can anyone think of any other cases where 'an' is used apart from before a
> vowel (at orthographic level), except when the sound is [ju:] or 'h'
> precedes the vowel?
On the orthographic level, before letters that have an initial vowel
sound? "An MGM production", for instance.
Adrian
(who once heard an audience member whispering to the rest of the theatre
"Shouldn't that be '*A* MGM'?")
Christopher Perrott
Larry Krakauer wrote:
>
> That is, in the US, most people pronounce the "h" on "historical"
> just as the British pronounce the "h" on "herb".
Actually, in the UK also, most people pronounce the "h" on "historical".
Using "an" is just an affectation, and quite rare. It tends to come
up in some stock phrases, like "This is an historical occasion".
Hysterical, isn't it?
--
Chris Perrott
BILLM...@delphi.com
Quoting "M.P.D.Simmons"<mpds from a message in alt.usage.english
>* 'An' also has to appear before words which a silent 'h' before
>vowels thus:
>an hour an historical essay an honour
>and (US) an herb but (Brit.) a herb
Do you really say "an 'istorical"? I would say "a historical".
Bill McCray (billm...@delphi.com)
Lexington, KY
Adrian Tan
I'm no linguist. I suspect, however, that there can be different
degrees of aspiration and, thus, that a rule like "'a' is used before
words beginning with a consonant-sound" can fail even though
"historical", for instance, be aspirated.
Gareth Williams
Thus spake Christopher Perrott <cper...@pacific.net.sg> :
+Larry Krakauer wrote:
+>
+> That is, in the US, most people pronounce the "h" on "historical"
+> just as the British pronounce the "h" on "herb".
+
+Actually, in the UK also, most people pronounce the "h" on "historical".
+Using "an" is just an affectation, and quite rare. It tends to come
+up in some stock phrases, like "This is an historical occasion".
+Hysterical, isn't it?
I think you mean 'an historic occasion' - the use of the present tense
with 'historical' seems to lack logic!
regards
Gareth Williams <g...@fmode.demon.co.uk>
L. Scott Kelbell
Adrian Tan <as...@usyd.edu.au> wrote in article
<3308E0...@usyd.edu.au>...
> I'm no linguist. I suspect, however, that there can be different
> degrees of aspiration and, thus, that a rule like "'a' is used before
> words beginning with a consonant-sound" can fail even though
> "historical", for instance, be aspirated.
This is very interesting. It seems comfortable for me to use the phrase
"an historic whatever" but I would never say "an hip" or "an hill."
Hmmm....
My introspection brings up another question: Is there a rule for the
pronunciation of the word "a?" When is it proper to say "*ay* hill" versus
"*uh* hill." (Sorry guys, I don't know the appropriate pronunciation
symbols.)
--Scott
Christopher Perrott
> +Using "an" is just an affectation, and quite rare. It tends to come
> +up in some stock phrases, like "This is an historical occasion".
>
> I think you mean 'an historic occasion' - the use of the present tense
> with 'historical' seems to lack logic!
"An historic occasion" is certainly more conventional :-)
--
Chris Perrott
Ruud Harmsen
> My introspection brings up another question: Is there a rule for the
>pronunciation of the word "a?" When is it proper to say "*ay* hill" versus
>"*uh* hill." (Sorry guys, I don't know the appropriate pronunciation
>symbols.)
sometimes used in slow, stressed, American English. This
is just my totaly worthless, prejudiced opinion of course.
It's perhaps a bit like the US tendency, especially in
songs, to sing a word like memory as it is written,
instead of the more natural (I hope) memery.
Spelling pronunciations?
Ruud Harmsen: http://utopia.knoware.nl/users/rharmsen/index.htm
M.P.D.Simmons
_________________________________________________________________________
Michael P.D. Simmons Tel: +44 (0)1227 787800 x70
Assistant to the Vice-Chancellor Fax: +44 (0)1227 784267
Chaucer College, University Road, Canterbury, Kent UK CT2 7LJ
But I could also ask 'Do you really say 'erb, I say herb'.
mpds
>
>
>
Adrian Tan
L. Scott Kelbell wrote:
>
> Adrian Tan <as...@usyd.edu.au> wrote in article
> <3308E0...@usyd.edu.au>...
>
> > I'm no linguist. I suspect, however, that there can be different
> > degrees of aspiration and, thus, that a rule like "'a' is used before
> > words beginning with a consonant-sound" can fail even though
> > "historical", for instance, be aspirated.
>
> This is very interesting. It seems comfortable for me to use the phrase
> "an historic whatever" but I would never say "an hip" or "an hill."
> Hmmm....
On second thoughts, I'm not sure that that speculation amounts to much
more than an example of me being whimsical. I find the "use 'an' before
words beginning with aitch that aren't accented on the first syllable"
idea much more persuasive (but do people who use "an" with "hundred"
aspirate "hundred"?).
On third thoughts, no stress might correspond to less aspiration
anyway...
Adrian
(who just doesn't know, and never did)
Kim Bastin
In <330D6A...@usyd.edu.au> as...@usyd.edu.au writes:
The rule is that `a' is used before a consonant sound, `an' before a vowel
sound. The spelling is an imperfect guide, as `h' may or may not represent
a sound, `eu' is pronounced `yoo', and `u' may be.
`An historical' is a special case. Historical used to be pronounced without
an `h' sound, so `an' was regular. Now that the h sound has been introduced
from the spelling (and from `history'), `an historical' is without justification
other than as a piece of cute academic affectation :->
Kim
BILLM...@delphi.com
Quoting "M.P.D.Simmons"<mpds from a message in alt.usage.english
>But I could also ask 'Do you really say 'erb, I say herb'.
>mpds
Actually, I've said it both ways. However, my question was not
just whether you pronounce the "h" or not. It was whether you
pronounce the "h" after "an" in "an historical"? I pronounce the
"h", so I precede it with "a", not "an".
Adrian Tan
Kim Bastin wrote:
> In <330D6A...@usyd.edu.au> as...@usyd.edu.au writes:
> > On second thoughts, I'm not sure that that speculation amounts to much
> > more than an example of me being whimsical. I find the "use 'an' before
> > words beginning with aitch that aren't accented on the first syllable"
> > idea much more persuasive (but do people who use "an" with "hundred"
> > aspirate "hundred"?).
> > On third thoughts, no stress might correspond to less aspiration
> > anyway...
>
> The rule is that `a' is used before a consonant sound, `an' before a vowel
> sound. The spelling is an imperfect guide, as `h' may or may not represent
> a sound, `eu' is pronounced `yoo', and `u' may be.
>
> `An historical' is a special case. Historical used to be pronounced without
> an `h' sound, so `an' was regular. Now that the h sound has been introduced
> from the spelling (and from `history'), `an historical' is without justification
> other than as a piece of cute academic affectation :->
Incidentally, on the "degrees of aspiration" idea, I've found some
support in Michael Swan's "Practical English Usage" -- "There are a few
other words, like _hotel_... , _habitual_..., which begin with _h_ in an
unstressed syllable. Some people use the articles _an_ and _the_...
before these and drop the _h_, or pronounce it very lightly."
I didn't realize that "historical" used to be pronounced without the
aitch. :-)
Kim Bastin
In <330EC1...@usyd.edu.au> as...@usyd.edu.au writes:
: Kim Bastin wrote:
:
: > In <330D6A...@usyd.edu.au> as...@usyd.edu.au writes:
:
: > > On second thoughts, I'm not sure that that speculation amounts to much
: > > more than an example of me being whimsical. I find the "use 'an' before
: > > words beginning with aitch that aren't accented on the first syllable"
: > > idea much more persuasive (but do people who use "an" with "hundred"
: > > aspirate "hundred"?).
: > > On third thoughts, no stress might correspond to less aspiration
: > > anyway...
: >
: > `An historical' is a special case. Historical used to be pronounced without
: > an `h' sound, so `an' was regular. Now that the h sound has been introduced
: > from the spelling (and from `history'), `an historical' is without justification
: > other than as a piece of cute academic affectation :->
:
: Incidentally, on the "degrees of aspiration" idea, I've found some
: support in Michael Swan's "Practical English Usage" -- "There are a few
: other words, like _hotel_... , _habitual_..., which begin with _h_ in an
: unstressed syllable. Some people use the articles _an_ and _the_...
: before these and drop the _h_, or pronounce it very lightly."
: I didn't realize that "historical" used to be pronounced without the
: aitch. :-)
All these words used to be. They are borrowed from French, which has no _h_
(except in the spelling). There has been a tendency in English to introduce
an _h_ sound from the spelling, with the result that e.g. _an 'otel_, though
historically right, is now either pedantic or - paradoxically - non-standard.
A contrary tendency, still with us, is to drop _h_ (the sound) in unstressed
syllables. This can be seen in the weak forms of _his_, _him_, _her_, _have_,
_has_, _had_. This may have tended to maintain pairs such as _history_ (_h_ in
stressed syllable) vs. _(h)istoric(al)_ (_h_ in unstressed syllable).
Kim
Matthew Rabuzzi
Kim Bastin wrote:
>
> : I didn't realize that "historical" used to be pronounced without the
> : aitch. :-)
>
> All these words used to be. They are borrowed from French, which has
> no _h_ (except in the spelling).
French now has two aitches: one, as you say, completely silent
(as in "l'hotel", "l'histoire"), and one with an aspiration
(as in "le homard", "la harpiste"; note that this aspiration doesn't
have a puff of air from the lungs as in some English aitches).
I don't know what the French pronunciation situation was when these
words were imported to English.
..................
Naughty quipu quip
Matthew Rabuzzi
Keith C. Ivey
Adrian Tan <as...@usyd.edu.au> wrote:
>M.P.D.Simmons wrote:
>
>> Can anyone think of any other cases where 'an' is used apart from before a
>> vowel (at orthographic level), except when the sound is [ju:] or 'h'
>> precedes the vowel?
>
>On the orthographic level, before letters that have an initial vowel
>sound? "An MGM production", for instance.
Yes, "an" is used before the letters F, H, L, M, N, R, S, and X
when they are pronounced as letters (because they all start with
vowel sounds), even those these letters are called consonants:
an FDA regulation
an HMO
an L.L. Bean catalog
an M&M
an N-methyl-D-aspartate receptor
an R&B band
an SF novel
an X ray
There are also examples like these:
an Yves Saint Laurent suit
an yttrium compound
And going the other way, "a" is used before the letter U when
it's pronounced as a letter:
a U-turn
a UN peacekeeping operation
It's also used before words that begin with the letter O in
writing but a /w/ in sound:
a one
a Ouija board
a Ouagadougou resident
People who are confused just need to abandon the idea that the
choice of "a" versus "an" has anything to do with starting
letters. It is based purely on whether the starting *sound* is
a vowel or a consonant.
Keith C. Ivey <kci...@cpcug.org> Washington, DC
Contributing Editor/Webmaster
The Editorial Eye <http://www.eeicom.com/eye/>
kotiling...@gmail.com
> John Cranmer wrote:
> >
> > For example we say A UNIVERSITY but AN UMBRELLA. A quick look through
> > the dictionary suggests that if the third letter of the noun is I then
> > A is used otherwise we use AN.
> >
> > Is this correct.
> >
> > jo...@jacy.demon.co.uk
>
> That's an interesting observation about the third letter of the word
> determining which indefinite article is to be used. I can't think of
> many exceptions on the spur of the moment.
>
> The rule that I've always applied determines the article by the way that
> the "u" is pronounced. If it's pronounced as though there's a hidden
> "y" in front of the "u" (as in "usual" but not in "unusual") then you
> use "a" otherwise, you use "an".
>
> rmj
CDB
> Ralph M Jones wrote:
>> John Cranmer wrote:
>>> For example we say A UNIVERSITY but AN UMBRELLA. A quick look
>>> through the dictionary suggests that if the third letter of the
>>> noun is I then A is used otherwise we use AN.
>>> Is this correct.
>> word determining which indefinite article is to be used. I can't
>> think of many exceptions on the spur of the moment.
>> The rule that I've always applied determines the article by the way
>> that the "u" is pronounced. If it's pronounced as though there's a
>> hidden "y" in front of the "u" (as in "usual" but not in "unusual")
>> then you use "a" otherwise, you use "an".
> this follows For example we say A UNIVERSITY but AN UMBRELLA. A
> quick look through
>>> the dictionary suggests that if the third letter of the noun is I
>>> then A is used otherwise we use AN.
word. Note that I said "sound", not "letter". If the first sound to
follow the article is a consonant, then the article is "a"; if the first
sound is a vowel, the article is "an".
The reason words beginning with the *letter* "u" need a little extra
care is that some of them begin with the *sound* of "y", a consonant,
and therefore require the article "a" ("university" is one of these);
others begin with a vowel sound and take "an", like "umbrella".
You have to know how the word is pronounced before you can decide on "a"
or "an".
Peter T. Daniels
the date from the attribution.)
CDB
since he repeats the erroneous idea that the difference depends
on the third letter of the noun modified:
************************************************************************
>>> 1950 this follows For example we say A UNIVERSITY but AN
>>> UMBRELLA. A quick look through
>>>>> the dictionary suggests that if the third letter of the noun
>>>>> is I then A is used otherwise we use AN.
In any case, there may be other readers who are puzzled by the usage. I
don't post only for OPs.
At an earlier time I might have passed the question by, but I have been
posting more often since I noticed that the traffic here had become sparse.
I had been posting infrequently, under the impression that my messages
were not welcome to some here. I don't imagine that my relative
absence had brought on a lack of interest, but I do think that I can
help bulk up the traffic pro tem. And I think my posts are worth
reading, of course, or I wouldn't send them.
Kerr-Mudd,John
these (end?) days.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
HVS
<nots...@invalid.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 21:01:59 GMT, CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I had been posting infrequently, under the impression that my
messages
> > were not welcome to some here. I don't imagine that my relative
> > absence had brought on a lack of interest, but I do think that I
can
> > help bulk up the traffic pro tem. And I think my posts are worth
> > reading, of course, or I wouldn't send them.
> Please continue; there seems to be a genereal lack of posting on
usenet
> these (end?) days.
Peter Moylan
> On Tuesday, February 4, 1997 at 1:30:00 PM UTC+5:30, Ralph M Jones wrote:
>> John Cranmer wrote:
>>>
>>> For example we say A UNIVERSITY but AN UMBRELLA. A quick look through
>>> the dictionary suggests that if the third letter of the noun is I then
>>> A is used otherwise we use AN.
> For example we say A UNIVERSITY but AN UMBRELLA. A quick look through
had changed since 1997.
I'm not sure what the relevance of 1950 is.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter T. Daniels
crossposted here _in medias res_ and OP did not quote the forebears.
Jenny Telia
remember not too long ago that there were league tables of posters in
AUE, fuelling a frenzy of posts from some unnamed person(s) posting for
the sake of stats, rather than content. The phrase "attention whore"
comes to mind.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
--
athel
Kerr-Mudd,John
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 21:19:07 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
> <nots...@invalid.org> wrote:
>> On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 21:01:59 GMT, CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> -snip -
>
>> > I had been posting infrequently, under the impression that my
> messages
>> > were not welcome to some here. I don't imagine that my relative
>> > absence had brought on a lack of interest, but I do think that I
> can
>> > help bulk up the traffic pro tem. And I think my posts are worth
>> > reading, of course, or I wouldn't send them.
>
>> Please continue; there seems to be a genereal lack of posting on
> usenet
>> these (end?) days.
>
> Is it some kind of genereal disease?
>
CDB
> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
[grammar explained; you still here?]
>> At an earlier time I might have passed the question by, but I have
>> been posting more often since I noticed that the traffic here had
>> become sparse.
>> I had been posting infrequently, under the impression that my
>> messages were not welcome to some here. I don't imagine that my
>> relative absence had brought on a lack of interest, but I do think
>> that I can help bulk up the traffic pro tem. And I think my posts
>> are worth reading, of course, or I wouldn't send them.
> Please continue; there seems to be a genereal lack of posting on
> usenet these (end?) days.
CDB
> CDB wrote:
>> And I think my posts are worth reading, of course, or I wouldn't
>> send them.
> Quite right. If only all posters here adopted the same principle. I
> remember not too long ago that there were league tables of posters
> in AUE, fuelling a frenzy of posts from some unnamed person(s)
> posting for the sake of stats, rather than content. The phrase
> "attention whore" comes to mind.
out things that he thought the group should consider. And to war down
the proud, of course.
snide...@gmail.com
> Quite right. If only all posters here adopted the same principle. I
> remember not too long ago that there were league tables of posters in
> AUE, fuelling a frenzy of posts from some unnamed person(s) posting for
> the sake of stats, rather than content. The phrase "attention whore"
> comes to mind.
but to highlight who had already been dominating the conversation.
Attention whores don't need stats.
(This isn't the only group, or even the chief one,
that Gus aka Augustus was disgorging in)
I will admit that there were a few people,
who if they fell of the top *25* for a couple weeks,
would ruefully say they needed to post more,
but they didn't exhibit any frenzy.
/dps
bill van
numbers of posts, and, you may recall, there was a weekly summary
of the best turns of phrase. A poster called groo compiled the summary
for a time, and it became known as the groo summary,
and eventually the Gruesome Mary.
Those were the days.
bill
Jenny Telia
come along, any minute now. <I say that, realising full well that my
prediction may kill off this branch of the thread.>
CDB
use the phrase here, AFAICR, about the person you meant. I also wanted
to say something about my own motives, of course.
Snidely
AW has just recently simmered a summary in TONG.
Here is a list of guilty parties. There are several with less than 25
posts that I'd like to hear more from.
/dps
Group : alt.usage.english
Statistics : from 6/1/2019 to 6/30/2019
***** Users with most messages *****
num| Name | Nb Msg | size | or. | %
----|--------------------|--------|-----------|-----|------------------|
1 | Peter T. Daniels | 464 | 1,571,486 | 3 | 8.83% xxxxxxxxxx
2 | Tony Cooper | 337 | 1,014,564 | 4 | 6.41% xxxxxxx
3 | Quinn C | 288 | 899,087 | 3 | 5.48% xxxxxx
4 | Peter Moylan | 276 | 697,930 | 0 | 5.25% xxxxx
5 | Athel Cornish- ... | 256 | 678,303 | 1 | 4.87% xxxxx
6 | Jerry Friedman | 196 | 610,369 | 0 | 3.73% xxxx
7 | J. J. Lodder | 169 | 534,731 | 0 | 3.22% xxx
8 | Kerr-Mudd,John | 165 | 418,828 | 0 | 3.14% xxx
9 | Lewis | 150 | 450,968 | 0 | 2.85% xxx
10 | CDB | 143 | 372,324 | 0 | 2.72% xxx
11 | RH Draney | 139 | 272,343 | 0 | 2.64% xx
12 | Peter Duncanso ... | 125 | 400,381 | 2 | 2.38% xx
13 | Katy Jennison | 121 | 383,302 | 1 | 2.30% xx
14 | bill van | 105 | 276,202 | 0 | 2.00% xx
15 | Ken Blake | 93 | 228,720 | 0 | 1.77% xx
16 | Yurui Liu | 90 | 429,320 | 6 | 1.71% x
17 | snidely.too@gm ... | 86 | 271,105 | 0 | 1.64% x
18 | bebe...@aol.com | 79 | 280,049 | 0 | 1.50% x
19 | charles | 76 | 267,260 | 0 | 1.45% x
20 | Mark Brader | 74 | 170,381 | 1 | 1.41% x
21 | Paul Wolff | 72 | 225,258 | 0 | 1.37% x
22 | John Varela | 57 | 161,288 | 0 | 1.08% x
23 | Sam Plusnet | 56 | 150,142 | 0 | 1.07% x
24 | Colonel Edmund ... | 55 | 95,424 | 26 | 1.05% x
25 | HVS | 55 | 161,716 | 0 | 1.05% x
26 | Paul Carmichael | 52 | 98,470 | 1 | 0.99% x
27 | Cheryl | 52 | 157,592 | 0 | 0.99% x
28 | Adam Funk | 49 | 133,116 | 1 | 0.93% x
29 | Janet | 49 | 124,492 | 1 | 0.93% x
30 | Dingbat | 47 | 115,919 | 13 | 0.89% x
31 | LFS | 47 | 141,867 | 1 | 0.89% x
32 | Commander Kinsey | 44 | 143,382 | 1 | 0.84%
33 | arthurvarr@gma ... | 43 | 105,044 | 24 | 0.82%
34 | Peter Young | 42 | 133,721 | 0 | 0.80%
35 | Peeler | 42 | 85,342 | 0 | 0.80%
36 | Madhu | 40 | 97,214 | 0 | 0.76%
37 | David Kleinecke | 38 | 107,348 | 2 | 0.72%
38 | Horace LaBadie | 34 | 96,155 | 0 | 0.65%
39 | occam | 33 | 64,682 | 1 | 0.63%
40 | bozo_de_niro@3 ... | 32 | 58,671 | 10 | 0.61%
41 | Stefan Ram | 28 | 57,474 | 1 | 0.53%
42 | skpf...@gmail.com | 26 | 61,118 | 7 | 0.49%
43 | Jack | 25 | 66,202 | 0 | 0.48%
44 | alex zuber | 24 | 33,245 | 23 | 0.46%
45 | lenona321@yaho ... | 23 | 76,429 | 1 | 0.44%
46 | Yusuf B Gursey | 23 | 113,024 | 0 | 0.44%
47 | Rich Ulrich | 22 | 76,594 | 1 | 0.42%
48 | j...@mdfs.net | 18 | 37,810 | 2 | 0.34%
49 | spuorgelgoog@g ... | 18 | 40,080 | 0 | 0.34%
50 | Carlos E.R. | 17 | 72,867 | 0 | 0.32%
51 | Gene Wirchenko | 15 | 34,697 | 0 | 0.29%
52 | Pamela | 13 | 25,243 | 3 | 0.25%
53 | Tak To | 12 | 42,607 | 0 | 0.23%
54 | Garrett Wollman | 12 | 25,681 | 0 | 0.23%
55 | Spains Harden | 11 | 27,283 | 0 | 0.21%
56 | Steve Hayes | 10 | 20,137 | 2 | 0.19%
57 | grabber | 10 | 27,294 | 1 | 0.19%
58 | Percival P. Ca ... | 9 | 22,793 | 0 | 0.17%
59 | Joseph C. Fineman | 9 | 14,910 | 0 | 0.17%
60 | helenlacedaemo ... | 8 | 25,043 | 1 | 0.15%
61 | Bill Day | 8 | 22,372 | 1 | 0.15%
62 | Robert Strawbridge | 8 | 17,090 | 1 | 0.15%
63 | Ross | 8 | 28,204 | 0 | 0.15%
64 | Eric Stevens | 8 | 26,288 | 0 | 0.15%
65 | GordonD | 8 | 23,305 | 0 | 0.15%
66 | Anders D. Nygaard | 8 | 21,626 | 0 | 0.15%
67 | Jenny Telia | 8 | 12,881 | 0 | 0.15%
68 | blmblm@myrealb ... | 7 | 23,640 | 0 | 0.13%
69 | Snidely | 7 | 22,437 | 0 | 0.13%
70 | nospam | 7 | 17,413 | 0 | 0.13%
71 | Mr. Marmite | 7 | 15,552 | 0 | 0.13%
72 | Dr. Jai Maharaj | 6 | 13,933 | 6 | 0.11%
73 | tonbei | 6 | 11,264 | 3 | 0.11%
74 | Paul | 6 | 15,670 | 2 | 0.11%
75 | the Omrud | 6 | 13,523 | 1 | 0.11%
76 | Pat Durkin | 6 | 18,936 | 0 | 0.11%
77 | John Dunlop | 6 | 14,542 | 0 | 0.11%
78 | coleenbrown007 ... | 6 | 11,768 | 0 | 0.11%
79 | loganharries44 ... | 6 | 11,655 | 0 | 0.11%
80 | % | 6 | 10,697 | 0 | 0.11%
81 | Sir Gregory Ha ... | 6 | 10,492 | 0 | 0.11%
82 | grammarian1976 ... | 5 | 12,765 | 2 | 0.10%
83 | Mack A. Damia | 5 | 8,424 | 2 | 0.10%
84 | jew pedophile ... | 5 | 10,015 | 1 | 0.10%
85 | musika | 5 | 11,786 | 0 | 0.10%
86 | jazzlion32@gma ... | 5 | 9,624 | 0 | 0.10%
87 | Bart Dinnissen | 5 | 9,361 | 0 | 0.10%
88 | emmamartin734@ ... | 5 | 9,152 | 0 | 0.10%
89 | libbyrich55@gm ... | 5 | 8,835 | 0 | 0.10%
90 | Arindam Banerjee | 5 | 8,437 | 0 | 0.10%
91 | soup | 5 | 7,847 | 0 | 0.10%
92 | Damaeus | 4 | 8,490 | 1 | 0.08%
93 | Lanarcam | 4 | 11,504 | 0 | 0.08%
94 | Lars Enderin | 4 | 8,386 | 0 | 0.08%
95 | katiewwoods@gm ... | 4 | 8,334 | 0 | 0.08%
96 | Don P | 4 | 8,301 | 0 | 0.08%
97 | Joy Beeson | 4 | 8,035 | 0 | 0.08%
98 | elizabethewwwi ... | 4 | 7,729 | 0 | 0.08%
99 | Mike_Duffy | 4 | 7,571 | 0 | 0.08%
100 | mw1755729@gmai ... | 4 | 7,551 | 0 | 0.08%
----|--------------------|--------|-----------|-----|------------------|
--
There's nothing inherently wrong with Big Data. What matters, as it
does for Arnold Lund in California or Richard Rothman in Baltimore, are
the questions -- old and new, good and bad -- this newest tool lets us
ask. (R. Lerhman, CSMonitor.com)
Peter Moylan
members left. Let us note that positions 20 onwards are occupied by a
mixture of trolls, drive-by contributors, and genuine group members. For
what it's worth, I would classify number 99 as a genuine group member,
and likewise for many people above him in the list. And I note that
number 24 is an obvious troll.
Kerr-Mudd,John
I would contend that the top x are serial arguers. Ah. I can't see why
I'm in there; the stats must be wrong (c. D Trump).
Tony Cooper
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>I blame my high score on the fact that there are very few genuine group
>members left. Let us note that positions 20 onwards are occupied by a
>mixture of trolls, drive-by contributors, and genuine group members. For
>what it's worth, I would classify number 99 as a genuine group member,
>and likewise for many people above him in the list. And I note that
>number 24 is an obvious troll.
cross-posters. I recognize a few names as regulars in another group.
While many of my posts are follow-ups to others, some are posts on
subjects that I have originated. We do need new grist for the mill,
and originating posts often lead to interesting discussions.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Jerry Friedman
> On Wed, 03 Jul 2019 15:05:27 GMT, Peter Moylan
> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
> > On 03/07/19 17:30, Snidely wrote:
> > I blame my high score on the fact that there are very few genuine
> > group members left. Let us note that positions 20 onwards are occupied
> > by a mixture of trolls, drive-by contributors, and genuine group
> > members. For what it's worth, I would classify number 99 as a genuine
> > group member, and likewise for many people above him in the list. And
> > I note that number 24 is an obvious troll.
> and 32.
>
>
> I would contend that the top x are serial arguers.
> Ah. I can't see why
> I'm in there; the stats must be wrong (c. D Trump).
--
Jerry Friedman
Quinn C
> Here is a list of guilty parties. There are several with less than 25
> posts that I'd like to hear more from.
> 69 | Snidely | 7 | 22,437 | 0 | 0.13%
significant. My script can deal with multiple identities, giving:
| 13 Katy Jennison | 121 ( 2.3%)| 4601 ( 2.6%)| 374 ( 2.6%)
| 14 bill van | 108 ( 2.0%)| 4166 ( 2.3%)| 275 ( 1.9%)
| 15 Snidely | 96 ( 1.8%)| 3446 ( 1.9%)| 295 ( 2.0%)
| 16 Ken Blake | 93 ( 1.8%)| 3568 ( 2.0%)| 223 ( 1.5%)
| 17 Yurui Liu | 90 ( 1.7%)| 6016 ( 3.4%)| 419 ( 2.9%)
Here's a few selected other tidbits:
Top threads:
| *go to the bathroom | 470
| -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Peter T. Daniels | 14 day(s), 38 writers
| main contrib: Tony Cooper (53, 11%), Quinn C (47, 10%)
| -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| *Antonyms for "obvious"? | 338
| -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| leno...@yahoo.com | 11 day(s), 36 writers
| main contrib: Peter T. Daniels (36, 11%)
| -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Antonyms for "obvious"? | 313
| Custard tart was Re: Antonyms for "obvious"? | 25
|
| Democracy sausage | 334
| -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Peter Moylan | 31 day(s), 36 writers
| -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| *Arkanas | 216
| -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Tony Cooper | 10 day(s), 33 writers
| -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Arkanas | 198
| placename pronunciation | 9
| Arkansas | 9
|
| What's the word for a story that's not true? | 205
| -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| John Doe | 12 day(s), 30 writers
| main contrib: J. J. Lodder (29, 14%)
| -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Most answered posts:
| Can't understand New Yorker cartoon
| Paul 2019-06-03 20:25:05 9
| How do anglophones know how to pronounce Hallelujah?
| Dingbat 2019-06-19 14:12:08 9
People getting lots of responses:
| Gene Wirchenko | 31 (2.07/post)
| Carlos E.R. | 32 (1.78/post)
| leno...@yahoo.com | 36 (1.57/post)
| Katy Jennison | 173 (1.43/post)
| ...
| Tony Cooper | 415 (1.22/post)
People getting few responses:
| Colonel Edmund J. Burke | 22 (0.40/post)
| CDB | 95 (0.66/post)
| Peter T. Daniels | 316 (0.68/post)
Like to answer themselves:
| Colonel Edmund J. Burke | 10 (18.2%)
| Peter Duncanson [BrE] | 8 ( 6.4%)
| Yurui Liu | 7 ( 7.8%)
| ...
| tonbei | 3 (50.0%)
Traffic by day of week:
| Sun | 163
| Mon | 156
| Tue | 171
| Wed | 235
| Thu | 191
| Fri | 177
| Sat | 148
--
In the old days, the complaints about the passing of the
golden age were much more sophisticated.
-- James Hogg in alt.usage.english
Tony Cooper
<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>Top threads:
>
>| *go to the bathroom | 470
>| -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>| Peter T. Daniels | 14 day(s), 38 writers
>| main contrib: Tony Cooper (53, 11%), Quinn C (47, 10%)
>| -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, Daniel's boy, the pipes, the pipes are calling
From wall to wall artistically arranged,
The thread is gone, and all the sinks are falling.
It's you, it's you must go for you are deranged.
snide...@gmail.com
> * Snidely:
>
> > Here is a list of guilty parties. There are several with less than 25
> > posts that I'd like to hear more from.
>
> Like this one?
>
> > 69 | Snidely | 7 | 22,437 | 0 | 0.13%
>
> 7 more or less is a minor issue, but in the past, it has been more
> significant. My script can deal with multiple identities, giving:
>
> | 13 Katy Jennison | 121 ( 2.3%)| 4601 ( 2.6%)| 374 ( 2.6%)
> | 14 bill van | 108 ( 2.0%)| 4166 ( 2.3%)| 275 ( 1.9%)
> | 15 Snidely | 96 ( 1.8%)| 3446 ( 1.9%)| 295 ( 2.0%)
> | 16 Ken Blake | 93 ( 1.8%)| 3568 ( 2.0%)| 223 ( 1.5%)
> | 17 Yurui Liu | 90 ( 1.7%)| 6016 ( 3.4%)| 419 ( 2.9%)
GG knows me whether I post with GG or Mesnews,
but Mesnews doesn't know my GG side.
Makes searching for my posts less satisfactory.
>
> Here's a few selected other tidbits:
>
> Top threads:
>
because I wasn't being a serious stats geek around here.]
/dps
snide...@gmail.com
and you spoiled the mood.
Is your urge to win that strong?
/dps
snide...@gmail.com
> I blame my high score on the fact that there are very few genuine group
> members left.
you had better not hold back.
> Let us note that positions 20 onwards are occupied by a
> mixture of trolls, drive-by contributors, and genuine group members.
> For
> what it's worth, I would classify number 99 as a genuine group member,
> and likewise for many people above him in the list. And I note that
> number 24 is an obvious troll.
vs the Scottish Blade,
TwentyFour seems to be more interested in
camping out in the corner with his coterie,
and mostly having nothing in common with the rest of the group.
/dps
Ken Blake
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
that. Am I a "genuine group member"?
snide...@gmail.com
a) regional dialect and vocabulary
b) sandwiches
c) comfort food
d) grammatical constructions
e) sheep
f) house construction
g) drains
h) historical vocabulary
i) languages that are not English and what English /didn't/ steal from them
j) baked foods
k) knitted garments
l) poetry
m) trains
n) Hemingway--Bulwer-Lytton contests
o) handtools
p) Thoreau vs Kierkegaard
q) 19th century naval vocabulary and notable incidents
r) prose
s) pond vs mere
t) pondial vs continental trends
u) power tools
v) the shortest route not involving more than 5 border crossings
w) how to use a browser
v) "my dad's newsreader will beat your dad's newsreader even on Tuesdays"
x) lies, damned lies, and statistics
y) politics, especially the errors of the Wrong Guys
z) grades of stainless steel and methods of gold refining
/dps
Peter Moylan
recognise the names, minus a few obvious troublemakers.
We used to talk about Respected Regulars, but nobody dared come up with
lists of who was respected and who wasn't.
I'll have to think some more about snidely's answer to your question. I
doubt that any of us could get a score of 26, but 10 or more would
certainly qualify.
Peter Moylan
RH Draney
Ken Blake
>On 04/07/19 07:45, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Thu, 4 Jul 2019 01:05:27 +1000, Peter Moylan
>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> I blame my high score on the fact that there are very few genuine
>>> group members left.
>>
>> What is a "genuine group member"? I have no idea what you mean by
>> that. Am I a "genuine group member"?
>
>Oh, definitely. I mean simply those who post regularly enough for us to
>recognise the names, minus a few obvious troublemakers.
than "genuine," but we're all different.
Kerr-Mudd,John
>
Do the chess people get left out?
and the half-bath/all-toilet dichotomy?
Kerr-Mudd,John
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> On 04/07/19 07:45, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Thu, 4 Jul 2019 01:05:27 +1000, Peter Moylan
>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> I blame my high score on the fact that there are very few genuine
>>> group members left.
>>
>> What is a "genuine group member"? I have no idea what you mean by
>> that. Am I a "genuine group member"?
>
> Oh, definitely. I mean simply those who post regularly enough for us to
> recognise the names, minus a few obvious troublemakers.
>
> We used to talk about Respected Regulars, but nobody dared come up with
> lists of who was respected and who wasn't.
>
> I'll have to think some more about snidely's answer to your question. I
> doubt that any of us could get a score of 26, but 10 or more would
> certainly qualify.
>
--
Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>
>
> I would contend that the top x are serial arguers. Ah. I can't see why
> I'm in there; the stats must be wrong (c. D Trump).
--
athel
Kerr-Mudd,John
Lewis
> 9 | Lewis | 150 | 450,968 | 0 | 2.85% xxx
--
"He raised his hammer defiantly and opened his mouth to say, "Oh, yeah?"
but stopped, because just by his ear he heard a growl. It was quite low
and soft, but it had a complex little waveform which went straight down
into a little knobbly bit in his spinal column where it pressed an
ancient button marked Primal Terror."
Lewis
they are *genuine* regulars, but they are regulars.
--
"...and that's not incense"
Lewis
> People getting few responses:
>| Colonel Edmund J. Burke | 22 (0.40/post)
>| CDB | 95 (0.66/post)
>| Peter T. Daniels | 316 (0.68/post)
--
There's no such thing as too much chocolate.
Peter T. Daniels
> q) 19th century naval vocabulary and notable incidents
> r) prose
> s) pond vs mere
> t) pondial vs continental trends
> u) power tools
> v) the shortest route not involving more than 5 border crossings
CDB
>> Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>> Top threads:
>>> | *go to the bathroom
>>> | 470 |
>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>> | Peter T. Daniels | 14 day(s), 38 writers |
>>> main contrib: Tony Cooper (53, 11%), Quinn C (47, 10%) |
>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>> Too bad no one responded with:
>> Oh, Daniel's boy, the pipes, the pipes are calling From wall to
>> wall artistically arranged, The thread is gone, and all the sinks
>> are falling. It's you, it's you must go for you are deranged.
> Whenever I hear that tune I think of a former girlfriend from
> London.