Which sentence is better?

[Peter T. Daniels]

To sum up, in dealing with these questions, we need to be careful to
distinguish IDEOGRAMS from LOGOGRAMS; and REBUSES from
PHONETICISM: two contrasts that predate, or “forerun,” the five types
of writing system.

To sum up, in dealing with these questions, we need to be careful to
distinguish IDEOGRAMS from LOGOGRAMS; and REBUSES from
PHONETICISM: two contrasts that predate, or “forerun,” the five types
of writing systems.

(They differ only in the last letter.) I won't tell you (until later) which
one I wrote and which one a reader suggested.

[Bebercito]

The latter, as "writing system" can only be countable.

[Adam Funk]

I don't think it makes a lot of difference, although I'd probably go
for the second.


--
I never met a people who were better at not getting to the
point than the Brits. ---Rich Hall

[bruce bowser]

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:18:23 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> To sum up, in dealing with these questions, we need to be careful to
> distinguish IDEOGRAMS from LOGOGRAMS; and REBUSES

I think i've heard of someone with the name Rebus. Or was it Remus?

[S K]

shamus?

[Tony Cooper]

Rebus is Ian Rankin's Inspector. Remus is Joel Chandler Harris's
Uncle.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

[bil...@shaw.ca]

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:48:14 AM UTC-7, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Fri, 6 May 2022 10:40:00 -0700 (PDT), bruce bowser
> <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:18:23 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> To sum up, in dealing with these questions, we need to be careful to
> >> distinguish IDEOGRAMS from LOGOGRAMS; and REBUSES
> >
> >I think i've heard of someone with the name Rebus. Or was it Remus?

> Rebus is Ian Rankin's Inspector. Remus is Joel Chandler Harris's
> Uncle.
>

A rebus is also a kind of puzzle that uses pictures of objects to suggest
words.

bill

[Peter T. Daniels]

I suspect TC knows that, though I wouldn't be so sure about the
bowser. When I saw you'd entered the thread, I anticipated a bit
of useful style advice.

[Tony Cooper]

A rebus (puzzle) is a "something" but not a "someone".

[Anders D. Nygaard]

The former. It is "types" there are five of.

/Anders, Denmark

[Ken Blake]

On Fri, 06 May 2022 14:48:06 -0400, Tony Cooper
<tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 6 May 2022 10:40:00 -0700 (PDT), bruce bowser
><bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:18:23 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> To sum up, in dealing with these questions, we need to be careful to
>>> distinguish IDEOGRAMS from LOGOGRAMS; and REBUSES
>>
>>I think i've heard of someone with the name Rebus. Or was it Remus?
>
>Rebus is Ian Rankin's Inspector. Remus is Joel Chandler Harris's
>Uncle.

It strikes me as odd that Ian Rankin needs inspecting.

More to the point, it always struck me as odd that a fictional
character got the name "Rebus." Is it an actual name? Have you or
anyone else here ever seen that name for a real person?

[bruce bowser]

Suffice it to say: that's the thing about New York. No one is "sure" of anyone.

[Peter Moylan]

That's the one I would have chosen. The second is poor English, but I'd
hesitate to label it definitely wrong.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Hibou]

I don't think there's any grammatical or logical reason to prefer one to
the other; it's a matter of idiom.

A useful technique is to change elements in the phrase under test.
Google Ngram Viewer tells me that "types of people" has always been much
commoner than "types of person", for instance; similarly for cars and
houses. On the other hand, until about 1987, "types of disease" was
commoner than "types of diseases". And "types of system" has a
respectable following, it seems, having been about a quarter as popular
as "types of systems" in 2019.

[Hibou]

Le 07/05/2022 à 08:20, Hibou a écrit :
>
> I don't think there's any grammatical or logical reason to prefer one to
> the other; it's a matter of idiom.

On second thoughts, there may be a logical reason. One could think of
writing systems as distinct solutions to the problem, i.e. as plural, or
as a manifestation of system as method. In the latter case, the singular
might seem natural.

Disease is susceptible to the same dual interpretation - various
diseases, or their common result, dis-ease, sickness. ("Types of
sickness" is commoner than "types of sicknesses".)

> A useful technique is to change elements in the phrase under test.
> Google Ngram Viewer tells me that "types of people" has always been much
> commoner than "types of person", for instance; similarly for cars and
> houses. On the other hand, until about 1987, "types of disease" was
> commoner than "types of diseases". And "types of system" has a
> respectable following, it seems, having been about a quarter as popular
> as "types of systems" in 2019.

These results may be misleading, since I find GNV is picking up "types
of system" where 'system' is used as an adjective - "types of system
software". There remain plenty of examples of the noun - "Two basic
types of system are usually..." (Google Book Search).

[CDB]

On 5/6/2022 3:08 PM, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:

> Tony Cooper wrote:
>> bruce bowser <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:18:23 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels
>>> wrote:
>>>> To sum up, in dealing with these questions, we need to be
>>>> careful to distinguish IDEOGRAMS from LOGOGRAMS; and REBUSES

>>> I think i've heard of someone with the name Rebus. Or was it
>>> Remus?

>> Rebus is Ian Rankin's Inspector. Remus is Joel Chandler Harris's
>> Uncle.

> A rebus is also a kind of puzzle that uses pictures of objects to
> suggest words.

"By means of things".

[Ruud Harmsen]

Fri, 6 May 2022 08:18:19 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:

I prefer systems.

[Adam Funk]

Robulus & Rebus?


--
So you say I got a funny face
I ain't got no worries
And I don't know why
And I don't know why

[lar3ryca]

https://www.redbubble.com/i/t-shirt/I-Love-Country-Music-by-lar3ry/6048843.NL9AC#&gid=1&pid=3

[Sam Plusnet]

On 07-May-22 19:21, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2022-05-06, bruce bowser wrote:
>
>> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:18:23 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> To sum up, in dealing with these questions, we need to be careful to
>>> distinguish IDEOGRAMS from LOGOGRAMS; and REBUSES
>>
>> I think i've heard of someone with the name Rebus. Or was it Remus?
>
> Robulus & Rebus?
>
>

On a coach trip, one may disembark and later Rebus.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Den 06-05-2022 kl. 22:12 skrev Stefan Ram:
> Bebercito <bebe...@aol.com> writes:
>> [two contrasts that predate the five types of writing system(s)]

>> The latter, as "writing system" can only be countable.
>

> I hereby acknowledge that you wrote first that countability
> is what matters here!

You (both) have me confused here - how does countability enter into it?
All three of us are non-native speakers, and the (few) native speakers
who have ventured an opinion seem to disagree as well - but AFAICS
all without providing reasons.

I'm looking forward to PTD disclosing what he chose, why, and why
one might disagree.

/Anders, Denmark

[Lewis]

In message <48ra7hh3aqs7n5vdm...@4ax.com> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 6 May 2022 10:40:00 -0700 (PDT), bruce bowser
> <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:18:23 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> To sum up, in dealing with these questions, we need to be careful to
>>> distinguish IDEOGRAMS from LOGOGRAMS; and REBUSES
>>
>>I think i've heard of someone with the name Rebus. Or was it Remus?

> Rebus is Ian Rankin's Inspector. Remus is Joel Chandler Harris's
> Uncle.

There are a few well known Remuses. One of the legendary founders of
Rome, of course. Uncle Remus and Remus Lupin are fictional characters
somewhat well known, and the name is not uncommon in Romania, though I
don't know any Romanians off the top of my head named Remus.

The first movie actress to play Dorthy Gale (Wizard of Oz) was name
Ramona Remus, IIRC.

I had never heard of either Ian Rankin or Inspector Rebus, but I am
looking to see if my library has them.

--
Why can't you be in a good mood? How hard is it to decide to be in a
good mood and be in a good mood once in a while?"

[wugi]

Op 7/05/2022 om 18:45 schreef Stefan Ram:

> "Anders D. Nygaard" <news2...@gmail.com> writes:
>> Den 06-05-2022 kl. 22:12 skrev Stefan Ram:
>>> Bebercito <bebe...@aol.com> writes:
>>>> [two contrasts that predate the five types of writing system(s)]
>>>> The latter, as "writing system" can only be countable.
>>> I hereby acknowledge that you wrote first that countability
>>> is what matters here!
>> You (both) have me confused here - how does countability enter into it?
>

> I am not a native speaker of English. That's true.
>
> My intution told me that "five types of writing systems" was
> correct, but my intuition is sometimes right and sometimes
> wrong when it comes to English. I can not trust it in this
> regard!
>
> So I turned to the Web (the World-Wide Web). There was a
> kind of a discussion I found where people said so. I.e.,
> they said that one uses the plural when the noun is countable,
> in such cases. For the case of "systems" this agreed with my
> own feeling (from the previous paragraph), so I adopted that view.
>
> I could have tried find more Web pages about this question
> to provide stronger support for the statement or to refute
> it, or to look this up in a usage or grammar book to hear an
> even more authoritative opinion, but decided that this would
> be too much effort in this case.
>
> So I took my intuition, one other opinion from the Web,
> and a certain degree of willingness to be wrong in public,
> and started to write my follow-up.

What about one type of writing systems?

--
guido wugi

[Tony Cooper]

On Sat, 7 May 2022 21:39:49 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

>In message <48ra7hh3aqs7n5vdm...@4ax.com> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 10:40:00 -0700 (PDT), bruce bowser
>> <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:18:23 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>> To sum up, in dealing with these questions, we need to be careful to
>>>> distinguish IDEOGRAMS from LOGOGRAMS; and REBUSES
>>>
>>>I think i've heard of someone with the name Rebus. Or was it Remus?
>
>> Rebus is Ian Rankin's Inspector. Remus is Joel Chandler Harris's
>> Uncle.
>
>There are a few well known Remuses. One of the legendary founders of
>Rome, of course. Uncle Remus and Remus Lupin are fictional characters
>somewhat well known, and the name is not uncommon in Romania, though I
>don't know any Romanians off the top of my head named Remus.
>
>The first movie actress to play Dorthy Gale (Wizard of Oz) was name
>Ramona Remus, IIRC.
>
>I had never heard of either Ian Rankin or Inspector Rebus, but I am
>looking to see if my library has them.

Should you decide to read the Rankin books in which Rebus is the main
character, you should start with "Knights and Crosses" if the library
has it. He does get better over time, though.

Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
written. But, like all authors who write about a single character in
a series of books, a later book will mention a character or event that
was in an earlier book, and it can be confusing. Authors seem to
expect you to know the reference.

If you read Rankin, do it with the understanding that his books are
about a Glasgow policeman (in the late 1980s at first) and doesn't go
out of his way to explain Glascow landmarks, the Scottish police
system, or the Scottish legal system. You may have to do some
Googling to keep up.

The only real problem for me with Rankin is that he will set something
in some part of Glascow or the surrounds that he describes by name,
but the name doesn't mean anything to me. Yet, what is describes
would be typical of that part of Glascow.

[Lewis]

In message <s0qd7h5ut4gn195b1...@4ax.com> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 7 May 2022 21:39:49 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
> <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

>>In message <48ra7hh3aqs7n5vdm...@4ax.com> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 10:40:00 -0700 (PDT), bruce bowser
>>> <bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:18:23 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>> To sum up, in dealing with these questions, we need to be careful to
>>>>> distinguish IDEOGRAMS from LOGOGRAMS; and REBUSES
>>>>
>>>>I think i've heard of someone with the name Rebus. Or was it Remus?
>>
>>> Rebus is Ian Rankin's Inspector. Remus is Joel Chandler Harris's
>>> Uncle.
>>
>>There are a few well known Remuses. One of the legendary founders of
>>Rome, of course. Uncle Remus and Remus Lupin are fictional characters
>>somewhat well known, and the name is not uncommon in Romania, though I
>>don't know any Romanians off the top of my head named Remus.
>>
>>The first movie actress to play Dorthy Gale (Wizard of Oz) was name
>>Ramona Remus, IIRC.
>>
>>I had never heard of either Ian Rankin or Inspector Rebus, but I am
>>looking to see if my library has them.


> Should you decide to read the Rankin books in which Rebus is the main
> character, you should start with "Knights and Crosses" if the library
> has it. He does get better over time, though.

I generally try to read series in order, I've been reading all the Ngaio
Marsh books in order, and next up is the Slough House books (though I
did read the first one of those already in anticipation of the Slow
Horses series which was excellent).

> Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
> written. But, like all authors who write about a single character in
> a series of books, a later book will mention a character or event that
> was in an earlier book, and it can be confusing. Authors seem to
> expect you to know the reference.

> If you read Rankin, do it with the understanding that his books are
> about a Glasgow

Edinburgh, innit?

--
By the way, I think you might be the prettiest girl I've ever seen
outside the pages of a really filthy magazine

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 8 May 2022 00:46:29 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

You are correct. My error. I was just reading another book that was
set in Glasgow, and had Glasgow on my mind.

All comments still apply except for the city name.

[charles]

In article <s0qd7h5ut4gn195b1...@4ax.com>,

All the Rebus books I have read - I ssupect all of them - are about
Edinburgh not Glasgow.

> The only real problem for me with Rankin is that he will set something
> in some part of Glascow or the surrounds that he describes by name,
> but the name doesn't mean anything to me. Yet, what is describes
> would be typical of that part of Glascow.

--

from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[CDB]

On 5/7/2022 3:02 PM, lar3ryca wrote:

How come the woman's shirt doesn't say "ex-husband"?

[CDB]

On 5/7/2022 4:53 PM, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> Adam Funk wrote:

>> bruce bowser wrote:
>>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:

>>>> To sum up, in dealing with these questions, we need to be
>>>> careful to distinguish IDEOGRAMS from LOGOGRAMS; and REBUSES

>>> I think i've heard of someone with the name Rebus. Or was it
>>> Remus?

>> Robulus & Rebus?

> On a coach trip, one may disembark and later Rebus.

"Give me my sin again".

[lar3ryca]

Good question.

Two things;
'Ex-husband" does not work for the phrase, as most folks would not
associate it with the right syllable. Though in Australia, it would
probably work just as well.

I made it the way I made it. Redbubble decides what product(s) it goes on.

I see that the "Hey there big fella" shirt is being sold as both women's
and men's.

https://www.redbubble.com/i/t-shirt/Hey-there-big-fella-by-lar3ry/5652075.8PZ5B

https://www.redbubble.com/i/t-shirt/Hey-there-big-fella-by-lar3ry/5652075.TR8D9

I think I've only sold two of that design.

[Ken Blake]

On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper

So have I.

> But, like all authors who write about a single character in
>a series of books, a later book will mention a character or event that
>was in an earlier book, and it can be confusing. Authors seem to
>expect you to know the reference.

Some authors do; others don't.

>
>If you read Rankin, do it with the understanding that his books are
>about a Glasgow policeman (in the late 1980s at first) and doesn't go
>out of his way to explain Glascow landmarks, the Scottish police
>system, or the Scottish legal system. You may have to do some
>Googling to keep up.
>
>The only real problem for me with Rankin is that he will set something
>in some part of Glascow or the surrounds that he describes by name,
>but the name doesn't mean anything to me. Yet, what is describes
>would be typical of that part of Glascow.

I've read most of his books as Kindle books on my smart phone. As I
think I said earlier in another thread, one of the big advantages of
Kindle to me is that you can just tap on a word and quickly find out
what it means or refers to. That's especially valuable to me for
rightpondian books.

[charles]

In article <kdsf7h9srbp7fs2n5...@4ax.com>,

And some authors get their geography totally mixed up. A well known author
had his hero be driven from Waterloo station to Century House passing
Hammersmith Hospital (which isn't in hammersmith) on the way. It's only a
10 minute walk; while it would probably take 30 minutes each way to the
hospital.

> >
> >If you read Rankin, do it with the understanding that his books are
> >about a Glasgow policeman (in the late 1980s at first) and doesn't go
> >out of his way to explain Glascow landmarks, the Scottish police
> >system, or the Scottish legal system. You may have to do some
> >Googling to keep up.
> >
> >The only real problem for me with Rankin is that he will set something
> >in some part of Glascow or the surrounds that he describes by name,
> >but the name doesn't mean anything to me. Yet, what is describes
> >would be typical of that part of Glascow.


> I've read most of his books as Kindle books on my smart phone. As I
> think I said earlier in another thread, one of the big advantages of
> Kindle to me is that you can just tap on a word and quickly find out
> what it means or refers to. That's especially valuable to me for
> rightpondian books.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 08 May 2022 09:41:34 -0700, Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com>
wrote:

I have pad with Kindle, and did use it at the beginning of COVID when
the libraries were closed. I couldn't wait to get back to actual
books.

If I do come across something that needs an explanaton, I don't find
it to be a problem to go to my computer and Google.

I've just finished a book set in WWI times, and a character in the
book is a nurse in the Queen Alexandria's Royal Army Nursing Corps.
There are numerous references to battles in France and wounded
veterans returning from those battles.

As you can imagine, "the Somme" appeared quite frequently. First I
went to Google just to determine where in France the Somme is. But,
typically when Googling something, one page leads to another and I
ended spending more than hour on WWI battles.

The short answer can be all that's wanted, though. I like the longer
one.

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Den 07-05-2022 kl. 23:45 skrev Stefan Ram:
> "Anders D. Nygaard" <news2...@gmail.com> writes:

>> Den 06-05-2022 kl. 22:12 skrev Stefan Ram:
>>> Bebercito <bebe...@aol.com> writes:
>>>> [two contrasts that predate the five types of writing system(s)]
>>>> The latter, as "writing system" can only be countable.
>>> I hereby acknowledge that you wrote first that countability
>>> is what matters here!
>> You (both) have me confused here - how does countability enter into it?
>

> I am not a native speaker of English. That's true.
>
> My intution told me that "five types of writing systems" was
> correct, but my intuition is sometimes right and sometimes
> wrong when it comes to English. I can not trust it in this
> regard!
>
> So I turned to the Web (the World-Wide Web). There was a

> kind of a discussion I found [...]

Where? Please be specific, so I have a chance of assessing
the validity of your (or, rather, their) claim.

/Anders, Denmark

[Peter Moylan]

On 09/05/22 03:08, charles wrote:

> And some authors get their geography totally mixed up. A well known
> author had his hero be driven from Waterloo station to Century House
> passing Hammersmith Hospital (which isn't in hammersmith) on the way.
> It's only a 10 minute walk; while it would probably take 30 minutes
> each way to the hospital.

A recent TV series set in Newcastle started very strangely. A woman who
had just flown from England was picked up at Newcastle beach by a
relative and driven to Merewether, a beach suburb that's less than a
ten-minute drive away if you take any of the obvious routes. Along the
way, they pass through an industrial area that would have been at least
a forty-minute detour, in the opposite direction.

What really puzzled me, though, was the question of how she got to
Newcastle Beach in the first place. The airport buses don't go that way.

[Lewis]

There are currently somewhere in excess of 1100 books on my iPad. That
advantage trumps everything else, but in addition, all my books are also
instantly searchable, shareable, and If I really want, editable.

The iPad is also lighter than most dad-tree books and does not require
a light source to read.

A kindle would be even lighter, but I'd have to buy a newer one with its
own light and I much prefer the crisp exact text of the iPad to the
somewhat mushy pixels of the kindle. I have been tempted by a Kobo,
however.

It's not all skittles and beer, of course, I do have to charge the iPad
every day or three, and I need to remember to put it into a distraction-
free focus mode or else I get interrupted/distracted too often.

With some books, the ability to simply look up place names in wikipedia
has been invaluable. When the read the Saxon Stories (The last Kingdom)
I was constantly looking up place names and finding that the research
into a series of adventure novels about a kid growing up in the late
800s was astonishingly well-done and accurate.

> I do come across something that needs an explanaton, I don't find
> it to be a problem to go to my computer and Google.

that means making the decision to take an extended break from reading,
likely involving moving to another room or at latest different chair. Each
time you move you risk a bout of threshold amnesia and 4 hours later you
find you get back to your book only to realize you never looked up what
you stopped reading to look up. The immediacy of having your book be
the Internet is a major benefit for staying focused.

> I've just finished a book set in WWI times, and a character in the
> book is a nurse in the Queen Alexandria's Royal Army Nursing Corps.
> There are numerous references to battles in France and wounded
> veterans returning from those battles.

Queen Alexandra, I think. There is a book by that name by Juliet Piggott
on my reading list, but I have not gotten to it yet.

Queen Alexandra was Edward VII wife, and was an important figure in
Britain during WWI, as Queen Mother.

I don't know if any of this figures in the book, but Queen Alexandra is
a fascinating woman and well-worth reading about.

Oh, and she is a close relative of basically every important figure of
the time, including Nicholas II and Wilhelm II. She also started a
charity that sold 'roses' made by disabled people to raise funds for
charity that morphed into the Remembrance Day Poppies that are still an
annual tradition in the UK to this day.

> As you can imagine, "the Somme" appeared quite frequently. First I
> went to Google just to determine where in France the Somme is. But,
> typically when Googling something, one page leads to another and I
> ended spending more than hour on WWI battles.

Which would have been less likely have you not had to switch devices and
locations. To be fair, it could still happen, but the odds are a bit
better in your favor.

> The short answer can be all that's wanted, though. I like the longer
> one.

The entire Internet is on my iPad, without getting out of my chair (or
bed).


--
"What if your DOPE was on fire?"
"Impossible, sir, it's in Johnson's underwear."

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

What we learn from French films set in Marseilles (of which there are
many) is that it takes 5 minutes or less to drive from any part of the
city to another, and that there is no point from which you don't have a
view of Notre Dame de la Garde. Also that when we're not shooting one
another we are playing boules or sipping pastis.


--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

[Ken Blake]

On Sun, 08 May 2022 15:18:41 -0400, Tony Cooper

You're not the only one. That's a common point of view, but it's not
mine.

For people who like Kindle, most also prefer to use an Amazon Kindle
device, but I'm unusual in that I prefer to use my phone.

Why do I prefer Kindle on my phone to actual books or Kindle devices?

1. One of the big advantages of Kindle to me is that you can just tap

on a word and quickly find out what it means or refers to.

2. My phone is much lighter than a book (or even a Kindle device) and
that makes reading in bed (which is where I usually read) much more
comfortable.

3. I only need to use one hand to hold the phone and turn the pages.

4. I always have my phone with me, so I don't have to remember to take
a book with me, for example, to read if I have to wait in a doctors
office.

[lar3ryca]

I like my Kobo a lot. You didn't mention the best advantage over paper
books; that I don't need to hold the book open. I often read while
having breakfast or lunch, and have a 3D-printed adjustable stand that
will hold it at the optimum angle.

It's a Kobo Aura H2O, which does have a back-light and is, somewhat
waterproof. It's actually one of the reasons I still run a single
Windows computer and access it with TeamViewer from my Linux box, since
Adobe sees fit to not provide Digital Editions for Linux.

While it does have a browser, I never use it.

--
The best way to accelerate a Windows machine is at 32 ft/sec/sec.

[bruce bowser]

On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 3:12:32 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2022-05-09 01:36:11 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>
> > On 09/05/22 03:08, charles wrote:
> >
> >> And some authors get their geography totally mixed up. A well known
> >> author had his hero be driven from Waterloo station to Century House
> >> passing Hammersmith Hospital (which isn't in hammersmith) on the way.
> >> It's only a 10 minute walk; while it would probably take 30 minutes
> >> each way to the hospital.
> >
> > A recent TV series set in Newcastle started very strangely. A woman who
> > had just flown from England was picked up at Newcastle beach by a
> > relative and driven to Merewether, a beach suburb that's less than a
> > ten-minute drive away if you take any of the obvious routes. Along the
> > way, they pass through an industrial area that would have been at least
> > a forty-minute detour, in the opposite direction.
> >
> > What really puzzled me, though, was the question of how she got to
> > Newcastle Beach in the first place. The airport buses don't go that way.
>
> What we learn from French films set in Marseilles (of which there are
> many)

I hear that is a diverse place. It has "no go" zones. That's a crazy term. Elderly, handicapped and many women raise kids in those areas. Why call it a no-go zone simply because it has no money, like Bordeaux does? In the US, the Bronx, NY is like that.

> is that it takes 5 minutes or less to drive from any part of the
> city to another, and that there is no point from which you don't have a
> view of Notre Dame de la Garde. Also that when we're not shooting one
> another we are playing boules or sipping pastis.

I look at crime thrillers from Germany. In two minutes, one of them characterizes a French-speaking family in such a quaint way. I couldn't stop laughing when I saw it. Here it is (after the 7:00 minute):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIfjjLOwl6w&t=14s (

[Sam Plusnet]

On 09-May-22 8:12, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> What we learn from French films set in Marseilles (of which there are
> many) is that it takes 5 minutes or less to drive from any part of the
> city to another, and that there is no point from which you don't have a
> view of Notre Dame de la Garde. Also that when we're not shooting one
> another we are playing boules or sipping pastis.

There must be a few enterprising Marseillais who could manage all three?


--
Sam Plusnet

[bruce bowser]

I'm sure that most Marseillais have their ideas.

[Quinn C]

* Ken Blake:

> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
> <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>written.
>
> So have I.

Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
who've done this kind of change.

Recently I heard about someone changing their (first) name from Jules to
Ozzie, apparently for gender-related reasons. That confused me, since
they are both male-associated names to me. But thinking about it, most
anglophone people named Jules I've encountered (including fictional
ones) have been women.

--
Some of the most horrific things ever done to humans
were done by the politest, best-dressed, most well-spoken
people from the very best homes and neighborhoods.
-- Jerry Springer

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 9 May 2022 23:21:29 -0400, Quinn C
<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Ken Blake:
>
>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>> <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>written.
>>
>> So have I.
>
>Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
>who've done this kind of change.
>

I assume you figured it out. It used to be very common to do it that
way using née to indicate her maiden name but the current trend seems
to be just write "his wife Miranda (Harvey)...".

It's better to write "Ian and Miranda (Harvey) Rankin live in
Edinburgh".

[Lewis]

In message <uijqakenhi68$.d...@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> * Ken Blake:

>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>> <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>written.
>>
>> So have I.

> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
> Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
> name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
> who've done this kind of change.

Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?

née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's maiden
name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.

> Recently I heard about someone changing their (first) name from Jules to
> Ozzie, apparently for gender-related reasons. That confused me, since
> they are both male-associated names to me. But thinking about it, most
> anglophone people named Jules I've encountered (including fictional
> ones) have been women.

The only person I've ever known who was named Jules was female, and it
is a frequent nickname for Julie.

--
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Umm, I think so, Brain, but three men in a tub? Ooh, that's
unsanitary!"

[charles]

In article <slrnt7jqra....@zephyrus.local>,

I've known both sexes called Jules. My impresson was that the female used
"Jules" to hide her identity - she was an army officer.

> --

[Quinn C]

* Tony Cooper:

> On Mon, 9 May 2022 23:21:29 -0400, Quinn C
> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>>* Ken Blake:
>>
>>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>> <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>>written.
>>>
>>> So have I.
>>
>>Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>>Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>>name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
>>who've done this kind of change.
>>
>
> I assume you figured it out. It used to be very common to do it that
> way using née to indicate her maiden name but the current trend seems
> to be just write "his wife Miranda (Harvey)...".
>
> It's better to write "Ian and Miranda (Harvey) Rankin live in
> Edinburgh".

And then I have to figure out what the parentheses mean, different from
that, in an obituary:

... father of Dion (Chris), Cedric (Julie) of Montreal, and Troy
(Maxine) and Paul (Maxine) of Barbados. Eldest son of predeceased...

I may not have the expected routine because I don't read death notices
regularly, but I read this because I know one of the children, so
figured out that it's the name of the partner of the person before the
parenthesis.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 10 May 2022 10:18:47 -0400, Quinn C

Standard obit style as long as I can remember. Once seen, it becomes
clear.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 11:21:33 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:

> Recently I heard about someone changing their (first) name from Jules to
> Ozzie, apparently for gender-related reasons. That confused me, since
> they are both male-associated names to me. But thinking about it, most
> anglophone people named Jules I've encountered (including fictional
> ones) have been women.

I know only the Broadway composer Jule Styne (*Gypsy*, *Funny Girl*),
pronounced "Julie" -- OMG, he was a Brit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jule_Styne

and the director Jules Dassin -- who I always assumed was French,
but I learned from the *Naked City* (movie) DVD that he was a nize
Jewish boy from New York -- "joolz DASS-in."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Dassin

[Ken Blake]

On Mon, 9 May 2022 23:21:29 -0400, Quinn C
<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Ken Blake:
>
>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>> <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>written.
>>
>> So have I.
>
>Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>Miranda (née Harvey)",
>I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>name from Harvey to Miranda.

Just in case you still don't understand, no, she changed her name from
Miranda Harvey to Miranda Rankin.

> I might know too many people at this point

>who've done this kind of change.ve encountered (including fictional
>ones) have been women.

[Quinn C]

* Ken Blake:

> On Mon, 9 May 2022 23:21:29 -0400, Quinn C
> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>>* Ken Blake:
>>
>>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>> <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>>written.
>>>
>>> So have I.
>>
>>Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>>Miranda (née Harvey)",
>>I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>>name from Harvey to Miranda.
>
> Just in case you still don't understand, no, she changed her name from
> Miranda Harvey to Miranda Rankin.

I don't think that first thought survived for a whole second in my mind.
It was very, may I say: transitional.

[Quinn C]

* Lewis:

> In message <uijqakenhi68$.d...@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>> * Ken Blake:
>
>>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>> <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>>written.
>>>
>>> So have I.
>
>> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>> Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>> name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
>> who've done this kind of change.
>
> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?

First, it has a lot to do with "Harvey" being a common first name. It
would never have happened with "Smith".

> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's maiden
> name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.

But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.

I live in a place where changing your last name upon marriage has not
been offered by the law for 50 years, so some people do forget about
this old custom. I had people be confused by my spouse and me having the
same last name - or maybe not confused, but just doubtful this was her
actual legal name.

And some trans people talk of their former name as "birth name" rather
than "deadname".

>> Recently I heard about someone changing their (first) name from Jules to
>> Ozzie, apparently for gender-related reasons. That confused me, since
>> they are both male-associated names to me. But thinking about it, most
>> anglophone people named Jules I've encountered (including fictional
>> ones) have been women.
>
> The only person I've ever known who was named Jules was female, and it
> is a frequent nickname for Julie.

I guess that must be the source of it, then. I hadn't seen a case where
I knew they were officially "Julie".

--
Behold, honored adversaries,
We are the instruments of your joyful death.
Consu war chant -- J. Scalzi, Old Man's War

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 10 May 2022 13:22:02 -0400, Quinn C

<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Lewis:
>
>> In message <uijqakenhi68$.d...@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>> * Ken Blake:
>>
>>>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>>> <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>>>written.
>>>>
>>>> So have I.
>>
>>> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>>> Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>>> name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
>>> who've done this kind of change.
>>
>> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?
>
>First, it has a lot to do with "Harvey" being a common first name. It
>would never have happened with "Smith".
>
>> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's maiden
>> name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.
>
>But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.

It's "limited" by convention and by style sheets of the publication.

It isn't used when a woman changes from her birth first name to
another first name or is known by a different first name than her
birth first name. It's only used to designated the maiden name.

Because it has a conventional and known meaning, it would confuse
people to see Mary (née John) Smith where Mary transistioned from
John. Reader would assume that Mary's maiden name was John.

In the case of a Mary who had transitioned, the more understandable
form would be "Mary (formerly John) Smith.

It - née - is only seen in publications, and "publications" does
include what is published in web pages.

[Peter Moylan]

On 11/05/22 04:02, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Tue, 10 May 2022 13:22:02 -0400, Quinn C
> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

[née]

>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems
>> outdated.
>
> It's "limited" by convention and by style sheets of the publication.
>
> It isn't used when a woman changes from her birth first name to
> another first name or is known by a different first name than her
> birth first name. It's only used to designated the maiden name.
>
> Because it has a conventional and known meaning, it would confuse
> people to see Mary (née John) Smith where Mary transistioned from
> John. Reader would assume that Mary's maiden name was John.
>
> In the case of a Mary who had transitioned, the more understandable
> form would be "Mary (formerly John) Smith.
>
> It - née - is only seen in publications, and "publications" does
> include what is published in web pages.

As a French word, née does not mean "before marriage". It means "born".
So it *should* apply regardless of the reason for the name change. But
of course in English it doesn't, so far.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".

[Lewis]

In message <t5f13t$b48$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/05/22 04:02, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 May 2022 13:22:02 -0400, Quinn C
>> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

> [née]

>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems
>>> outdated.
>>
>> It's "limited" by convention and by style sheets of the publication.
>>
>> It isn't used when a woman changes from her birth first name to
>> another first name or is known by a different first name than her
>> birth first name. It's only used to designated the maiden name.
>>
>> Because it has a conventional and known meaning, it would confuse
>> people to see Mary (née John) Smith where Mary transistioned from
>> John. Reader would assume that Mary's maiden name was John.
>>
>> In the case of a Mary who had transitioned, the more understandable
>> form would be "Mary (formerly John) Smith.
>>
>> It - née - is only seen in publications, and "publications" does
>> include what is published in web pages.

> As a French word, née does not mean "before marriage".

Which is relevant in alt.usage.french.

> It means "born". So it *should* apply regardless of the reason for
> the name change. But of course in English it doesn't, so far.

The dictionary seems to imply it COULD be used that way, but I have only
seen it used for a woman who changes her name (not even used when a man
changes his name) after marriage.

> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".

It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since the word
is née and wtf is né?

--
Talk is cheap because supply exceeds demand.

[Tony Cooper]

The Seekers of a Shubbery

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e2kaQqxmQ0

[lar3ryca]

As far as I can remember, I have only seen it written 'nee'.

[Bebercito]

That's because, in English, the word is much more often used
in reference to women, i.e. as "née" (the final <e> marks the
feminine in French). However, M-W also has an entry for the
masculine form:

---
né adjective
\ ˈnā \
Definition of né (Entry 3 of 3)
1—used to indicate the original, former, or legal name of a man
Robert Roe, né John Doe
2: originally or formerly called
First Known Use of Ne
Adjective

1905, in the meaning defined at sense 1

History and Etymology for Ne
Adjective

French, literally, born — more at NÉE

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/n%C3%A9
___

[Peter Moylan]

French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and née is
feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although the
feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and sometimes
without the acute accent.

We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
writing the accent.

[Lewis]

In message <t5ff9p$qim$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/05/22 12:40, Lewis wrote:
>> In message <t5f13t$b48$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>>
>> It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since the
>> word is née and wtf is né?

> French adjectives inflect for gender,

Yes, I know, thus "confusing to anyone who is not a francophone".

> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
> writing the accent.

Résumé puts paid to that.



--
You are in my inappropriate thoughts

[bil...@shaw.ca]

My home Oxford, which is 35 or 40 years from its printing, has ne' as a man's
name at birth. There seems to be an implication that his name is something
different now than when he was born.

bill

[Hibou]

Le 11/05/2022 à 05:49, Peter Moylan a écrit :
>
> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and née is
> feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although the
> feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and sometimes
> without the acute accent.
>
> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
> writing the accent.

It's difficult to have everyone agree.

I think I'd say a word is naturalised when a majority of speakers treat
it as native - pronunciation, pluralisation, inflection or not for
gender, conjugation if it's a verb, and so on.

An example that seems to be stuck halfway is 'homage'. For myself, I'd
treat it as naturalised, and pronounce it à l'anglaise (hɒmɪdʒ) - yet I
hear a lot of people try to do so à la française, while voicing the 'h'
instead of saying 'omaage (ɔmaʒ). I wish they'd spare us this hybrid.

[Richard Heathfield]

On 11/05/2022 6:55 am, Hibou wrote:
> Le 11/05/2022 à 05:49, Peter Moylan a écrit :
>>
>> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and
>> née is
>> feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although
>> the
>> feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and
>> sometimes
>> without the acute accent.
>>
>> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
>> writing the accent.
>
> It's difficult to have everyone agree.

No, it's not.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

I say, what a nice knee.

You 'ave a loverly nees </Shifty character>

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Wed, 11 May 2022 06:58:05 +0100
Richard Heathfield <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:

> On 11/05/2022 6:55 am, Hibou wrote:
> > Le 11/05/2022 à 05:49, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> >>
> >> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and
> >> née is
> >> feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although
> >> the
> >> feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and
> >> sometimes
> >> without the acute accent.
> >>
> >> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
> >> writing the accent.
> >
> > It's difficult to have everyone agree.
>
> No, it's not.
>
>

You're all individuals!

[Adam Funk]

On 2022-05-10, Quinn C wrote:

> * Lewis:
>
>> In message <uijqakenhi68$.d...@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>> * Ken Blake:
>>
>>>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>>> <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>>>written.
>>>>
>>>> So have I.
>>
>>> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>>> Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>>> name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
>>> who've done this kind of change.
>>
>> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?
>
> First, it has a lot to do with "Harvey" being a common first name. It
> would never have happened with "Smith".
>
>> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's maiden
>> name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.
>
> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.
>
> I live in a place where changing your last name upon marriage has not
> been offered by the law for 50 years, so some people do forget about

"not been offered" = the wife cannot change surname on marriage, or
just that it isn't the default?

> this old custom. I had people be confused by my spouse and me having the
> same last name - or maybe not confused, but just doubtful this was her
> actual legal name.
>
> And some trans people talk of their former name as "birth name" rather
> than "deadname".
>
>>> Recently I heard about someone changing their (first) name from Jules to
>>> Ozzie, apparently for gender-related reasons. That confused me, since
>>> they are both male-associated names to me. But thinking about it, most
>>> anglophone people named Jules I've encountered (including fictional
>>> ones) have been women.
>>
>> The only person I've ever known who was named Jules was female, and it
>> is a frequent nickname for Julie.
>
> I guess that must be the source of it, then. I hadn't seen a case where
> I knew they were officially "Julie".
>


--

Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room.
---President Muffley

[Adam Funk]

On 2022-05-11, Richard Heathfield wrote:

> On 11/05/2022 6:55 am, Hibou wrote:
>> Le 11/05/2022 à 05:49, Peter Moylan a écrit :
>>>
>>> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and
>>> née is
>>> feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although
>>> the
>>> feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and
>>> sometimes
>>> without the acute accent.
>>>
>>> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
>>> writing the accent.
>>
>> It's difficult to have everyone agree.
>
> No, it's not.

Oh yes it is.


--
Ambassador Trentino: "I am willing to do anything to prevent this
war."
President Firefly: "It's too late. I've already paid a month's
rent on the battlefield." _Duck Soup_

[Peter Moylan]

On 11/05/22 19:30, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2022-05-11, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> On 11/05/2022 6:55 am, Hibou wrote:
>>> Le 11/05/2022 à 05:49, Peter Moylan a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and
>>>> née is feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English -
>>>> although the feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes
>>>> with and sometimes without the acute accent.
>>>>
>>>> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone
>>>> stops writing the accent.
>>>
>>> It's difficult to have everyone agree.
>>
>> No, it's not.
>
> Oh yes it is.

Behind you!

[CDB]

We can assume M. Massenet was French. I do, anyway.

[Janet]

In article <t5ff9p$qim$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
says...

In BrE, the gender distinction between nee and ne is as commonly
recognised as that between fiancee/fiance. With or without accent.

Chauffeur/chauffeuse, maitre/maitresse are still recognisable

Janet

[CDB]

On 5/10/2022 1:22 PM, Quinn C wrote:
> Lewis:

>> Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>> * Ken Blake:

>>>> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>> Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every
>>>>> book he's written.

>>>> So have I.

>>> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his
>>> wife, Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had
>>> changed her name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many
>>> people at this point who've done this kind of change.

>> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?

> First, it has a lot to do with "Harvey" being a common first name.
> It would never have happened with "Smith".

>> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's
>> maiden name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.

> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.

> I live in a place where changing your last name upon marriage has
> not been offered by the law for 50 years, so some people do forget
> about this old custom. I had people be confused by my spouse and me
> having the same last name - or maybe not confused, but just doubtful
> this was her actual legal name.

> And some trans people talk of their former name as "birth name"
> rather than "deadname".

Using the conventional marriage notation for trans people would raise a
small conundrum: is (say) a trans-woman "nee", for her preferred status,
or "né", for when she was born? I added the accent because a bare "ne"
seemed to need it.

>>> Recently I heard about someone changing their (first) name from
>>> Jules to Ozzie, apparently for gender-related reasons. That
>>> confused me, since they are both male-associated names to me. But
>>> thinking about it, most anglophone people named Jules I've
>>> encountered (including fictional ones) have been women.

>> The only person I've ever known who was named Jules was female, and
>> it is a frequent nickname for Julie.

> I guess that must be the source of it, then. I hadn't seen a case
> where I knew they were officially "Julie".

Could be "Jezza", if she was a belle.

[CDB]

On 5/10/2022 8:47 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:

> Tony Cooper wrote:
>> Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

> [née]

>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name
>>> upon marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems
>>> outdated.

>> It's "limited" by convention and by style sheets of the
>> publication.

>> It isn't used when a woman changes from her birth first name to
>> another first name or is known by a different first name than her
>> birth first name. It's only used to designated the maiden name.

>> Because it has a conventional and known meaning, it would confuse
>> people to see Mary (née John) Smith where Mary transistioned from
>> John. Reader would assume that Mary's maiden name was John.

>> In the case of a Mary who had transitioned, the more
>> understandable form would be "Mary (formerly John) Smith.

>> It - née - is only seen in publications, and "publications" does
>> include what is published in web pages.

> As a French word, née does not mean "before marriage". It means
> "born". So it *should* apply regardless of the reason for the name
> change. But of course in English it doesn't, so far.

> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".

ITYM "nx". Here's such a coil!

[CDB]

I pronounce it (hɒmɪdʒ) ['hAmidZ], like you. When I say "'omaage"
[om'AZ], I spell it in French: "hommage".

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Not to mention M. le Divisionnaire Maigret.


--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Maybe né(e?) would be clearer.

[Peter Moylan]

In AmE, I understand, the only adjective that inflects for gender is
blond/blonde. Strangely this is not a word that inflects for gender in BrE.

[Peter Moylan]

>> And some trans people talk of their former name as "birth name"
>> rather than "deadname".

Adoptees also use "birth name".

[Hibou]

Nay.

[lar3ryca]

Certainly not in my English. I seldom see it written with any accent
marks at all.

[Adam Funk]

On 2022-05-11, Peter Moylan wrote:

> On 11/05/22 21:48, Janet wrote:
>> In article <t5ff9p$qim$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
>> says...
>>>
>>> On 11/05/22 12:40, Lewis wrote:
>>>> In message <t5f13t$b48$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
>>>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>>>>
>>>> It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since
>>>> the word is née and wtf is né?
>>>
>>> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and née
>>> is feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although
>>> the feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and
>>> sometimes without the acute accent.
>>>
>>> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
>>> writing the accent.
>>
>> In BrE, the gender distinction between nee and ne is as commonly
>> recognised as that between fiancee/fiance. With or without accent.
>>
>> Chauffeur/chauffeuse, maitre/maitresse are still recognisable

I can't recall ever hearing a female driver called a "chauffeuse" in
English except facetiously among people studying French.

> In AmE, I understand, the only adjective that inflects for gender is
> blond/blonde. Strangely this is not a word that inflects for gender in BrE.

I don't think blond/e is consistently inflected for gender in AmE;
some people do it & some don't.


--
It was far easier for you as civilised men to behave
like barbarians, than it was for them as barbarians to
behave like civilised men. ---Spock

[Hibou]

Le 11/05/2022 à 12:50, CDB a écrit :
>
> Using the conventional marriage notation for trans people would raise a
> small conundrum: is (say) a trans-woman "nee", for her preferred status,
> or "né", for when she was born?  I added the accent because a bare "ne"
> seemed to need it.

There is a movement in France towards so-called inclusive writing
(l'écriture inclusive), one controversial component of which is what I
call 'dotty writing' (l'écriture à point médian), where the word would
be written 'né·e' (singular ungendered) or 'né·e·s' (singular or
plural). Dotty writing is fashionable among some politically correct
types, but is almost certain to disappear. It is hard work to write,
especially in any long text, and its pronunciation is unclear. One could
also object that the masculine part still comes first, and it is still
firmly based in binarism.

[Janet]

In article <t5gai6$ua6$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid

Are you sure? I think br.E speakers still use blonde/blonde according
to context and grammar.

I'd describe a man's yellow hair as "blond". His hair is blond.

While noun "blonde" refers to a female with yellow hair. She's a
blonde.

Janet

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2022-05-11 13:06:30 +0000, Adam Funk said:

> On 2022-05-11, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>> On 11/05/22 21:48, Janet wrote:
>>> In article <t5ff9p$qim$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
>>> says...
>>>>
>>>> On 11/05/22 12:40, Lewis wrote:
>>>>> In message <t5f13t$b48$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
>>>>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since
>>>>> the word is née and wtf is né?
>>>>
>>>> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and née
>>>> is feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although
>>>> the feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and
>>>> sometimes without the acute accent.
>>>>
>>>> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
>>>> writing the accent.
>>>
>>> In BrE, the gender distinction between nee and ne is as commonly
>>> recognised as that between fiancee/fiance. With or without accent.
>>>
>>> Chauffeur/chauffeuse, maitre/maitresse are still recognisable
>
> I can't recall ever hearing a female driver called a "chauffeuse" in
> English except facetiously among people studying French.

Nor can I.

As for maître/maîtresse, maître refers in French to any lawyer,
regardless of sex; maîtresse has various very different meanings (more
or less the same range as English mistress), but there seems no obvious
reason for importing it into English.

>
>
>
>> In AmE, I understand, the only adjective that inflects for gender is
>> blond/blonde. Strangely this is not a word that inflects for gender in BrE.
>
> I don't think blond/e is consistently inflected for gender in AmE;
> some people do it & some don't.


--

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2022-05-11 13:34:39 +0000, Janet said:

> In article <t5gai6$ua6$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
> says...
>>
>> On 11/05/22 21:48, Janet wrote:
>>> In article <t5ff9p$qim$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
>>> says...
>>>>
>>>> On 11/05/22 12:40, Lewis wrote:
>>>>> In message <t5f13t$b48$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
>>>>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since
>>>>> the word is née and wtf is né?
>>>>
>>>> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and née
>>>> is feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although
>>>> the feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and
>>>> sometimes without the acute accent.
>>>>
>>>> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
>>>> writing the accent.
>>>
>>> In BrE, the gender distinction between nee and ne is as commonly
>>> recognised as that between fiancee/fiance. With or without accent.
>>>
>>> Chauffeur/chauffeuse, maitre/maitresse are still recognisable
>>
>> In AmE, I understand, the only adjective that inflects for gender is
>> blond/blonde.

There is also "Filipino/Filipina" (though personally I use Filipino for both).

>> Strangely this is not a word that inflects for gender in BrE.
>
> Are you sure? I think br.E speakers still use blonde/blonde according
> to context and grammar.
>
> I'd describe a man's yellow hair as "blond". His hair is blond.
>
> While noun "blonde" refers to a female with yellow hair. She's a
> blonde.
>
> Janet

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:48:01 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:

> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".

Except, being French, it's gendered. Perhaps nÉe?

[Quinn C]

* Adam Funk:

> On 2022-05-10, Quinn C wrote:
>
>> * Lewis:
>>
>>> In message <uijqakenhi68$.d...@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>> * Ken Blake:
>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>>>> <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>>>>written.
>>>>>
>>>>> So have I.
>>>
>>>> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>>>> Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>>>> name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
>>>> who've done this kind of change.
>>>
>>> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?
>>
>> First, it has a lot to do with "Harvey" being a common first name. It
>> would never have happened with "Smith".
>>
>>> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's maiden
>>> name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.
>>
>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.
>>
>> I live in a place where changing your last name upon marriage has not
>> been offered by the law for 50 years, so some people do forget about
>
> "not been offered" = the wife cannot change surname on marriage, or
> just that it isn't the default?

Name change isn't part of the marriage process, and if you ask for a
generic name change, independent of that, you need to give a reason, and
marriage is not enough of a reason. Or so I've been told.

My feeling is that the bureaucracy simply wants to file a person under
their birth name forever for simplicity's sake. Even though my wife had
legally changed her name upon marriage when we arrived here, they wanted
her "birth name" on the health insurance card, for example. "You can add
your married name as an addendum".

I used scare quotes in the above because her "birth name" is the name
before marriage, but not the name she actually had from birth, because
she changed it once before, both given and family name.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

[Quinn C]

* CDB:

"né.e" is the way of staying neutral I see most.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Had he been a good enough student to be considered Anglophone?

[Peter T. Daniels]

An awful lot of masseurs are being called masseuses these days.
(In TV scripts.)

[Bebercito]

Le mercredi 11 mai 2022 à 15:15:07 UTC+2, Adam Funk a écrit :
> On 2022-05-11, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
> > On 11/05/22 21:48, Janet wrote:
> >> In article <t5ff9p$qim$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
> >> says...
> >>>
> >>> On 11/05/22 12:40, Lewis wrote:
> >>>> In message <t5f13t$b48$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
> >>>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
> >>>>
> >>>> It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since
> >>>> the word is née and wtf is né?
> >>>
> >>> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and née
> >>> is feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although
> >>> the feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and
> >>> sometimes without the acute accent.
> >>>
> >>> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
> >>> writing the accent.
> >>
> >> In BrE, the gender distinction between nee and ne is as commonly
> >> recognised as that between fiancee/fiance. With or without accent.
> >>
> >> Chauffeur/chauffeuse, maitre/maitresse are still recognisable
> I can't recall ever hearing a female driver called a "chauffeuse" in
> English except facetiously among people studying French.

In French, a female driver is actually called a "chauffeur" (or sometimes
"chauffeure", with the reform of orthography), while "chauffeuse" refers
either to a female stoker or a type of low chair.

[Ken Blake]

On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:47:53 +1000, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 11/05/22 04:02, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 May 2022 13:22:02 -0400, Quinn C
>> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>[née]
>

>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems
>>> outdated.
>>

>> It's "limited" by convention and by style sheets of the publication.
>>
>> It isn't used when a woman changes from her birth first name to
>> another first name or is known by a different first name than her
>> birth first name. It's only used to designated the maiden name.
>>
>> Because it has a conventional and known meaning, it would confuse
>> people to see Mary (née John) Smith where Mary transistioned from
>> John. Reader would assume that Mary's maiden name was John.
>>
>> In the case of a Mary who had transitioned, the more understandable
>> form would be "Mary (formerly John) Smith.
>>
>> It - née - is only seen in publications, and "publications" does
>> include what is published in web pages.
>
>As a French word, née does not mean "before marriage". It means "born".
>So it *should* apply regardless of the reason for the name change. But
>of course in English it doesn't, so far.
>

>Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".

I do. If I saw that, I'd think it had née misspelled, and referred to
a married woman whose last name is Quinn, whose last name before
marriage was Oliver.

[Ken Blake]

On Tue, 10 May 2022 22:41:42 -0700 (PDT), "bil...@shaw.ca"
<bil...@shaw.ca> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:46:08 PM UTC-7, lar3ryca wrote:
>> On 2022-05-10 20:40, Lewis wrote:

>> > In message <t5f13t$b48$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>> >> On 11/05/22 04:02, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> >>> On Tue, 10 May 2022 13:22:02 -0400, Quinn C
>> >>> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>> >
>> >> [née]
>> >
>> >>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>> >>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems
>> >>>> outdated.
>> >>>
>> >>> It's "limited" by convention and by style sheets of the publication.
>> >>>
>> >>> It isn't used when a woman changes from her birth first name to
>> >>> another first name or is known by a different first name than her
>> >>> birth first name. It's only used to designated the maiden name.
>> >>>
>> >>> Because it has a conventional and known meaning, it would confuse
>> >>> people to see Mary (née John) Smith where Mary transistioned from
>> >>> John. Reader would assume that Mary's maiden name was John.
>> >>>
>> >>> In the case of a Mary who had transitioned, the more understandable
>> >>> form would be "Mary (formerly John) Smith.
>> >>>
>> >>> It - née - is only seen in publications, and "publications" does
>> >>> include what is published in web pages.
>> >
>> >> As a French word, née does not mean "before marriage".
>> >

>> > Which is relevant in alt.usage.french.

>> >
>> >> It means "born". So it *should* apply regardless of the reason for
>> >> the name change. But of course in English it doesn't, so far.
>> >

>> > The dictionary seems to imply it COULD be used that way, but I have only
>> > seen it used for a woman who changes her name (not even used when a man
>> > changes his name) after marriage.

>> >
>> >> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>> >

>> > It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since the word
>> > is née and wtf is né?
>

>> As far as I can remember, I have only seen it written 'nee'.
>
>My home Oxford, which is 35 or 40 years from its printing, has ne' as a man's
>name at birth. There seems to be an implication that his name is something
>different now than when he was born.


To me, née always refers to a woman's last name before she changed it
when she married. Since men don't normally change their last name at
marriage, that usage of né would be so rare, that if I saw it, I'd
think it was most likely a typo or a misspelling of née.

[Ken Blake]

Same for me.

[Ken Blake]

My mother-in-law, who was very poorly educated, knew the difference
between "fiancee" and "fiance." What she didn't know was how to
pronounce "fiance." Before we were married, she would call me her
daughter's fee-AHNZ.

[Ken Blake]

I don't know about BrE, but in AmE, it used to, but very rarely does
these days.

Is it the only adjective that does (did?)? I don't know.

[Ken Blake]

On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:31:37 -0400, Quinn C

I've known several women who didn't change their last name to their
husband's when they were married, usually because they were
professionally known by their birth name.

[Ken Blake]

On Wed, 11 May 2022 14:17:13 +0100, Hibou <h...@b.ou> wrote:

>Le 11/05/2022 à 12:50, CDB a écrit :
>>
>> Using the conventional marriage notation for trans people would raise a
>> small conundrum: is (say) a trans-woman "nee", for her preferred status,
>> or "né", for when she was born?  I added the accent because a bare "ne"
>> seemed to need it.
>
>There is a movement in France towards so-called inclusive writing
>(l'écriture inclusive), one controversial component of which is what I
>call 'dotty writing' (l'écriture à point médian), where the word would
>be written 'né·e' (singular ungendered) or 'né·e·s' (singular or
>plural). Dotty writing is fashionable among some politically correct
>types, but is almost certain to disappear.

I certainly hope it disappears It looks dotty to me.

[Ken Blake]

On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:31:37 -0400, Quinn C

I've never seen it.

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:30:38 -0700, Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com>

The use of née is supposed to be to identify her to people who knew
her when her last name was her original last name.

Is it appropriate, though, when a woman has been using a prior
husband's last name for a long time but has now re-married?

Was "Joyce Smith (née Jones) Joyce Jones prior to her first marriage,
or Joyce (née Brown) Jones before she married Mr Smith?

The nursing school and high school newsletters that my wife receives
use her married name as her last name, but the last name she used when
in nursing school and high school in parenthesis.

Simple for my wife, but some of the women on the lists have changed
married names over time.


--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

[Ken Blake]

On 11 May 2022 16:53:02 GMT, r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
wrote:

>Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> writes:
>>My mother-in-law, who was very poorly educated, knew the difference
>>between "fiancee" and "fiance." What she didn't know was how to
>>pronounce "fiance." Before we were married, she would call me her
>>daughter's fee-AHNZ.
>

>fi·an·cé A man engaged to be married.


Yes, I know.

>fi·an·cée A woman engaged to be married.


Yes, I know.

> Both are pronounced the same.


Yes, I know.

I was talking about what my mother-in-law knew and didn't know.