Should we capitalize Mom & Dad? (and 2 other capitalization questions)

[Berkeley Brett]

I hope you are all well & in good spirits.

As I see it, Mom and Dad made quite a few sacrifices bringing me up: so I think they've each earned a capital letter.

Do you capitalize 'Mom' and 'Dad'?

Additional questions about capitalization:

1. Are there some words we do not capitalize that we should?

In essays that I write primarily for my own later reading, I capitalize most virtues and other excellent qualities: Compassion, Wisdom, Diligence, Patience, etc. We give the Honorable Judge Smith multiple capital letters, though (s)he may or may not be honorable. But Honor *itself* is surely the real, noble, and capital-letter-worthy thing.

2. Are there some words we capitalize but should not.

Nothing springs to my mind, but perhaps it does to yours.

Thank you all in advance for any thoughts you choose to share....

--
Brett (in Berkeley, California, USA)
http://www.ForeverFunds.org/
My plan for saving the world!
(Micro-trusts & Micro-Endowments that survive you)

[Eric Walker]

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 01:32:01 -0700, Berkeley Brett wrote:

> As I see it, Mom and Dad made quite a few sacrifices bringing me up: so
> I think they've each earned a capital letter.
>
> Do you capitalize 'Mom' and 'Dad'?

I, at least, follow the general rule: when the pronoun points to a
particular thing, it is eligible for capitalization; otherwise not.

I am very grateful to my Mom and Dad for the opportunities they gave me.

A person's mom and dad are probably the most important figures in his
or her transformation to adulthood.

> Additional questions about capitalization:
>
> 1. Are there some words we do not capitalize that we should?
>
> In essays that I write primarily for my own later reading, I capitalize
> most virtues and other excellent qualities: Compassion, Wisdom,
> Diligence, Patience, etc. We give the Honorable Judge Smith multiple
> capital letters, though (s)he may or may not be honorable. But Honor
> *itself* is surely the real, noble, and capital-letter-worthy thing.

I would say that one capitalizes when the thing being named is conceived
as personified.

He felt that his honor was at stake.

He felt that Honor was the most profound possible human measure.

> 2. Are there some words we capitalize but should not.
>
> Nothing springs to my mind, but perhaps it does to yours.

In the end, you know, a good style guide is Your Friend.


--
Cordially,
Eric Walker

[Dr Nick]

Berkeley Brett <roya...@gmail.com> writes:

> I hope you are all well & in good spirits.
>
> As I see it, Mom and Dad made quite a few sacrifices bringing me up: so I think they've each earned a capital letter.
>
> Do you capitalize 'Mom' and 'Dad'?

I wouldn't be surprised if this is the first time I've ever written
"Mom" (with any capitalisation) in my entire life.

[Pablo]

Ditto, capitalised or not.

Mum, on the other hand...

--
Pablo

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wibbleypants/
http://paulc.es/

[DavidW]

Berkeley Brett wrote:
> I hope you are all well & in good spirits.
>
> As I see it, Mom and Dad made quite a few sacrifices bringing me up:
> so I think they've each earned a capital letter.
>
> Do you capitalize 'Mom' and 'Dad'?

Yes, (well, "Mum" anyway) for my own, but there are also mums and dads.

> Additional questions about capitalization:
>
> 1. Are there some words we do not capitalize that we should?
>
> In essays that I write primarily for my own later reading, I
> capitalize most virtues and other excellent qualities: Compassion,
> Wisdom, Diligence, Patience, etc.

Those are simple nouns that certainly should not be capitalized. What is it
about virtues that require a capitalization beacon to increase visibility
regardless of context? "The blood-thirsty killer had the Patience to wait 15
hours in the alley for his target to appear."

And how are you going to define "virtue" so everyone knows the same set of
nouns to captalize?

> We give the Honorable Judge Smith
> multiple capital letters, though (s)he may or may not be honorable.

Of course. It's a title and a name. Quite straightforward. If you have a
problem with a particular "Honorable", take it up with the authority that
prescribes the title. It's not an English language issue.

The capitalization trouble I have most is deciding whether to write "Prime
Minister" or "prime minister", "Government" or "government" etc., e.g., Did
Prime Minister David Cameron speak fondly of former Prime Minister Margaret
Thatcher or former prime minister Margaret Thatcher?

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

If I used the word "Mom" at all (it still looks odd even 50 years after
I first encountered it) I would agree with you about the capitals.

On the other hand, even for someone hates singular "they" as much as
you do, isn't there is something very ugly about "his or her
transformation"? The sentence cries out to be put in the plural:
"Peoples's moms and dads are probably the most important figures in
their transformation to adulthood."


--
athel

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 08:48:29 +0000 (UTC), Eric Walker
<em...@owlcroft.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 01:32:01 -0700, Berkeley Brett wrote:
>
>> As I see it, Mom and Dad made quite a few sacrifices bringing me up: so
>> I think they've each earned a capital letter.
>>
>> Do you capitalize 'Mom' and 'Dad'?
>
>I, at least, follow the general rule: when the pronoun points to a
>particular thing, it is eligible for capitalization; otherwise not.
>
> I am very grateful to my Mom and Dad for the opportunities they gave me.
>
> A person's mom and dad are probably the most important figures in his
> or her transformation to adulthood.
>

While I agree with your "rule", the above sentence seems very
inappropriate to me. Using "mom and dad", instead of "mother and
father", when it is not a reference to specific people seems juvenile.

I can see referring to my "Mom and Dad", and your "Mom and Dad", but
not mom and dad as terms as a general replacement for "mother" and
"father".




--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL

[James Silverton]

I agree completely and, in fact quite dislike "mom" and "dad" as
replacements for "mother" and "father". A newspaper headline like "DA
says Mom Killed Family" or in the text "The Bottencourt county DA, O.
Howe Dewey, said that it seemed the mom killed her family." seem
incongruous. Capitalized "Mom" and "Dad" are for discussions with my
children and close acquaintances.


--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not" in Reply To.

[Arcadian Rises]

On Apr 14, 4:32 am, Berkeley Brett <royal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I hope you are all well & in good spirits.
>
> As I see it, Mom and Dad made quite a few sacrifices bringing me up: so I think they've each earned a capital letter.
>
> Do you capitalize 'Mom' and 'Dad'?
>
> Additional questions about capitalization:
>
> 1. Are there some words we do not capitalize that we should?
>
> In essays that I write primarily for my own later reading, I capitalize most virtues and other excellent qualities: Compassion, Wisdom, Diligence, Patience, etc. We give the Honorable Judge Smith multiple capital letters, though (s)he may or may not be honorable. But Honor *itself* is surely the real, noble, and capital-letter-worthy thing.
>
> 2. Are there some words we capitalize but should not.
>
> Nothing springs to my mind, but perhaps it does to yours.

I wish there were no capitalization at all.

Once there was a trend not to capitalize anything; I thought it was
ridiculous when I read emails of some children of the sixties. But
nowadays when passwords became capital sensitive and I don't remember
if I used any caps, I begin to appreciate the simplicity of uniform
non-caps.

>
> Thank you all in advance for any thoughts you choose to share....
>
> --

> Brett (in Berkeley, California, USA)http://www.ForeverFunds.org/

[Pablo]

The word "parents" springs to mind.

[CDB]

On 14/04/2013 10:01 AM, James Silverton wrote:
> Tony Cooper wrote:

But it's personal or general use, not the familiarity of the context,
that rules. If you ask little Billingsgate, on a sleepover with your
grandchildren, "Do your mom and dad know you talk like that?", those
parents are lower-case.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2013-04-14 14:08:56 +0000, Arcadian Rises said:

> On Apr 14, 4:32�am, Berkeley Brett <royal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I hope you are all well & in good spirits.
>>
>> As I see it, Mom and Dad made quite a few sacrifices bringing me up: so
>> I think they've each earned a capital letter.
>>
>> Do you capitalize 'Mom' and 'Dad'?
>>
>> Additional questions about capitalization:
>>
>> 1. Are there some words we do not capitalize that we should?
>>
>> In essays that I write primarily for my own later reading, I capitalize
>> most virtues and other excellent qualities: Compassion, Wisdom,
>> Diligence, Patience, etc. We give the Honorable Judge Smith multiple
>> capital letters, though (s)he may or may not be honorable. But Honor
>> *itself* is surely the real, noble, and capital-letter-worthy thing.
>>
>> 2. Are there some words we capitalize but should not.
>>
>> Nothing springs to my mind, but perhaps it does to yours.
>
> I wish there were no capitalization at all.

If you removed every "redundant" feature of language you wouldn't end
up with the perfect system; you'd end up with something where the
tiniest error would produce either a wrong or an unintelligible result.

>
> Once there was a trend not to capitalize anything; I thought it was
> ridiculous when I read emails of some children of the sixties. But
> nowadays when passwords became capital sensitive and I don't remember
> if I used any caps, I begin to appreciate the simplicity of uniform
> non-caps.
>
>>
>> Thank you all in advance for any thoughts you choose to share....
>>
>> --
>> Brett (in Berkeley, California, USA)http://www.ForeverFunds.org/
>> My plan for saving the world!
>> (Micro-trusts & Micro-Endowments that survive you)

--
athel

[Christian Weisgerber]

Berkeley Brett <roya...@gmail.com> wrote:

> 1. Are there some words we do not capitalize that we should?

Apart from German, which treats all nouns to this, I don't think
any language capitalizes more words than English already does, and,
judging from the major European ones, most languages capitalize
less.

> 2. Are there some words we capitalize but should not.

For starters, most languages don't capitalize some or all of these:
* the names of the days of the week,
* the names of the months,
* adjectives derived from proper names.

(Obviously we are only talking about languages written in a script
that has an upper-lower case distinction in the first place.)

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de

[Jerry Friedman]

That's the rule I follow. They're capitalized when they're used in
the same way as names. So are "Mother" and "Father". But when
they're used as common nouns, as in "my mom", they're not.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

On Apr 14, 2:32 am, Berkeley Brett <royal...@gmail.com> wrote:
...

> Additional questions about capitalization:
>
> 1. Are there some words we do not capitalize that we should?
>
> In essays that I write primarily for my own later reading, I capitalize most virtues and other excellent qualities: Compassion, Wisdom, Diligence, Patience, etc. We give the Honorable Judge Smith multiple capital letters, though (s)he may or may not be honorable. But Honor *itself* is surely the real, noble, and capital-letter-worthy thing.
>
> 2. Are there some words we capitalize but should not.
>
> Nothing springs to my mind, but perhaps it does to yours.

...

"The" in names of institutions, as in the pretentious "The Ohio State
University". Although I can't say "we" capitalize them, since I
don't.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Stan Brown]

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 08:48:29 +0000 (UTC), Eric Walker wrote:
> I, at least, follow the general rule: when the pronoun points to a
> particular thing, it is eligible for capitalization; otherwise not.

I don't think this rule is correctly stated, or at least not
according to how I learned it in Maryland in the 1950s and 1960s.

How I learned it: "Mom", "Dad", "Sister", "Brother" and such are
capitalized when they are used as names, not otherwise.

"You're inviting me for dinner? I'll have to check with my mom."
"You're inviting me for dinner? I'll have to check with Mom."

> I am very grateful to my Mom and Dad for the opportunities they gave me.

The Chicago Manual (13th) at 7.30 says:

"Kinship names are lowercased when preceded by modifiers. When used
before a proper name or alone, in place of the name, they are usually
capitalized:

"His father died at the age of ninety-three.
"My brother and sister live in California.
"the Grimke sisters
" 'Happy birthday, Uncle Ed.'
"I know that Mother's middle name is Marie.
"Please, Dad, let's go."

That matches how I learned it in school.

--
"The difference between the /almost right/ word and the /right/ word
is ... the difference between the lightning-bug and the lightning."
--Mark Twain
Stan Brown, Tompkins County, NY, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com

[Stan Brown]

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 13:50:05 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> The sentence cries out to be put in the plural:
> "Peoples's moms and dads are probably the most important figures in
> their transformation to adulthood."

I suppose Abraham and Sarah(*) would qualify as a people's mom and
day. Do other peoples have recognized moms and dads, thus justifying
the double plural?

(*) Mrs. Abraham's name was Sarah, right? I'm having a mental lapse.

[Arcadian Rises]

I don't like the capitalization of titles, actually parts of titles,
which is confusing: I don't know if it's "Gone With the Wind" or "Gone
with the Wind"; or perhaps "Gone With The Wind"?

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2013-04-14 17:48:21 +0000, Stan Brown said:

> On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 13:50:05 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>
>> The sentence cries out to be put in the plural:
>> "Peoples's moms and dads are probably the most important figures in
>> their transformation to adulthood."
>
> I suppose Abraham and Sarah(*) would qualify as a people's mom and
> day. Do other peoples have recognized moms and dads, thus justifying
> the double plural?

It took a moment to see what you were getting at, but OK, a plural too
many: People's moms and dads

>
> (*) Mrs. Abraham's name was Sarah, right? I'm having a mental lapse.

Yes. She was originally called Sarai, but for some reason that I've
forgotten she changed it to Sarah.


--
athel

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2013-04-14 15:22:25 +0000, Christian Weisgerber said:

> Berkeley Brett <roya...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> 1. Are there some words we do not capitalize that we should?
>
> Apart from German, which treats all nouns to this, I don't think
> any language capitalizes more words than English already does, and,
> judging from the major European ones, most languages capitalize
> less.
>
>> 2. Are there some words we capitalize but should not.
>
> For starters, most languages don't capitalize some or all of these:
> * the names of the days of the week,
> * the names of the months,
> * adjectives derived from proper names.

On the other hand French does capitalize some things that English
doesn't, such as names of species used as sources of biological
material: e.g. "nous utilisons l'enzyme de Rat" -- "we use the rat
enzyme". It's also much more inclined to write the names of people
entirely in capitals. I've been reading a text today that mentions V.
HENRI in almost every sentence. That sort of thing isn't unknown in
English, even today, though mainly in journals published in Germany or
The Netherlands, but it's much more common in French. Likewise the
French are much more inclined to write about "Nature" than we are, who
mostly prefer "nature".

>
> (Obviously we are only talking about languages written in a script
> that has an upper-lower case distinction in the first place.)


--

athel

[James Silverton]

I never regarded it as pretentious when my school had an address:

The University
Glasgow, Scotland

There *was* only one university in Glasgow at the time and it was
appropriate. However, I see now that there are several universities in
the city, addresses like the following are used:

2 The Square
University of Glasgow
Glasgow G12 8QQ

The other universities have their own names like Strathclyde University,
Paisley University, Glasgow Caledonian University etc. but they were
only non-degree granting colleges in my time.

[Stan Brown]

Probably to evade bill collectors.

[Cora Fuchs]

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 01:32:01 -0700 (PDT), Berkeley Brett
<roya...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I hope you are all well & in good spirits.
>
>As I see it, Mom and Dad made quite a few sacrifices bringing me up: so I think they've each earned a capital letter.
>
>Do you capitalize 'Mom' and 'Dad'?

Deserve's got nothing to do with it. You're using "Mom" and "Dad" as
names. In this context, they are proper nouns, hence capitalized. When
you use these words with a modifier, as in "My mom and dad are both
fans of Buffy the Vampire Slayer," they are common nouns, hence
uncapitalized.

>Additional questions about capitalization:
>
>1. Are there some words we do not capitalize that we should?
>
>In essays that I write primarily for my own later reading, I capitalize most virtues and other excellent qualities: Compassion, Wisdom, Diligence, Patience, etc. We give the Honorable Judge Smith multiple capital letters, though (s)he may or may not be honorable. But Honor *itself* is surely the real, noble, and capital-letter-worthy thing.

Unless you intend to personify those qualities, cut it out.

>2. Are there some words we capitalize but should not.

What you mean, "we"?

[Peter Moylan]

On 14/04/13 20:08, DavidW wrote:
> The capitalization trouble I have most is deciding whether to write "Prime
> Minister" or "prime minister", "Government" or "government" etc., e.g., Did
> Prime Minister David Cameron speak fondly of former Prime Minister Margaret
> Thatcher or former prime minister Margaret Thatcher?

That would have been easier to answer a couple of weeks ago. Now she's
former in both senses.

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

[Peter Moylan]

I've seen it often enough, but I can never resist the temptation to
pronounce it as written, which can give a strange effect.

[the Omrud]

On 14/04/2013 11:08, DavidW wrote:

> The capitalization trouble I have most is deciding whether to write "Prime
> Minister" or "prime minister", "Government" or "government" etc., e.g., Did
> Prime Minister David Cameron speak fondly of former Prime Minister Margaret
> Thatcher or former prime minister Margaret Thatcher?

The latter, I hope. Prime Minister is not a title, but a job. It
should only be capitalised when addressing the job holder directly.

--
David

[Peter Moylan]

On 15/04/13 00:08, Arcadian Rises wrote:

> Once there was a trend not to capitalize anything; I thought it was
> ridiculous when I read emails of some children of the sixties. But
> nowadays when passwords became capital sensitive and I don't remember
> if I used any caps, I begin to appreciate the simplicity of uniform
> non-caps.

At work we have a rule that a password must contain at least one
upper-case letter, at least one lower-case letter, at least one digit,
and at least one punctuation. There's also some sort of rule about
minimum length.

As a result, everyone has to have their password written on a note in
their desk drawer. That's called security.

I have so many passwords on different sites, mostly because of different
rules at the different places, that I would be completely lost without
LastPass.

[Eric Walker]

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 10:29:08 -0700, Jerry Friedman wrote:

[...]

> "The" in names of institutions, as in the pretentious "The Ohio State
> University". Although I can't say "we" capitalize them, since I don't.

There are a few that always seem bizarre to me either way (that is,
neither looks right):

It was the laugh of The Shadow.
It was the laugh of the Shadow.

That masked man was The Lone Ranger.
That masked man was the Lone Ranger.

Mr Templar is better known as The Saint.
Mr Templar is better known as the Saint.

I believe that in all those cases, the capitalized article is the
canonical form.

--
Cordially,
Eric Walker

[Peter Moylan]

My own university went through a phase in which the staff were sternly
reminded that they might only refer to "The University of Newcastle",
and never "Newcastle University". It had something to do with copyright,
or branding, or something like that. Nobody bothered to follow the order.

At about that time there was another institution, right next door to the
university, originally called Newcastle Teachers' College but by then
called The Newcastle College of Advanced Education. Then it changed its
name to Newcastle Institute of Higher Education. The local newspaper ran
a cartoon showing the university's vice-chancellor up a ladder painting
a sign that said "Newcastle University of Even Higher Education".

By now the two institutions have been amalgamated into a single
university, and all the former certificates and diplomas have been
renamed as degrees.

[Robert Bannister]

She kept getting mixed up with her cousin, Caravan Serai.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

It is very "modern" to use baby talk when and wherever possible. We
should be thankful they're not using "People's mummies and daddies".

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

I only capitalised them in direct address. So I always wrote "my mum",
but in letters would write "Dear Mum". I have no excuse for why I mostly
capitalise points of the compass and the names of seasons.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 14/04/13 10:09 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 14/04/13 18:56, Dr Nick wrote:
>> Berkeley Brett <roya...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> I hope you are all well & in good spirits.
>>>
>>> As I see it, Mom and Dad made quite a few sacrifices bringing me up: so I think they've each earned a capital letter.
>>>
>>> Do you capitalize 'Mom' and 'Dad'?
>>
>> I wouldn't be surprised if this is the first time I've ever written
>> "Mom" (with any capitalisation) in my entire life.
>
> I've seen it often enough, but I can never resist the temptation to
> pronounce it as written, which can give a strange effect.
>

The way my Leicestershire cousins pronounce "mum", it sounds like "mom".
The way Americans pronounce "o", one assumes "mom" will sound like
"maam" to us.
--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

Are we able to distinguish between titles, jobs and job titles? I would
write "Chief Executive Officer" or "Second Assistant Secretary to the
Minister" or "Primus Pilus of the Secret Committee (non-extant) of the
A.U.E.".
--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

And what did the Reform of German do? -- Changed phrases like "auf
deutsch" to "auf Deutsch", "zuhause/zu haus" to "zu Haus" and many others.
--
Robert Bannister

[Arcadian Rises]

> Robert Bannister- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Also known as Seraglio, from whom she was abducted.

[Jerry Friedman]

I don't blame you a bit. I like "Gone with the Wind" myself, but
"Gone With the Wind" is also in use.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

They all look better to me with "the".

Here's a book with "The Shadow":

http://ebooks.gutenberg.us/WorldeBookLibrary.com/pulpy103.htm

Here's one with "the Saint":

http://www.e-reading-lib.org/bookreader.php/71222/Charteris_-_The_Saint_Meets_the_Tiger.html

I suppose that for the Lone Ranger, you'd have to find a comic book
that used lower case, or some source about him that you trust.

--
Jerry Friedman

[R H Draney]

Jerry Friedman filted:

>
>On Apr 14, 11:49=A0am, Arcadian Rises <Arcadianri...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> I don't like the capitalization of titles, actually parts of titles,
>> which is confusing: I don't know if it's "Gone With the Wind" or "Gone
>> with the Wind"; or perhaps "Gone With The Wind"?
>
>I don't blame you a bit. I like "Gone with the Wind" myself, but
>"Gone With the Wind" is also in use.

On the Beatles' "White Album", several inconsistent sets of rules appear to be
in use...apart from those titles with no words that are commonly capitalized
under one rule and not under another, we have:

all words except articles, conjunctions and short prepositions:
Back in the U.S.S.R.
The Continuing Story of Bungalow Bill
Everybody's Got Something to Hide Except Me and My Monkey

first word of title only:
I'm so tired
Why don't we do it in the road?

some rule I've never seen described:
Happiness is a Warm Gun

....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Dr Nick]

"DavidW" <n...@email.provided> writes:

> The capitalization trouble I have most is deciding whether to write "Prime
> Minister" or "prime minister", "Government" or "government" etc., e.g., Did
> Prime Minister David Cameron speak fondly of former Prime Minister Margaret
> Thatcher or former prime minister Margaret Thatcher?

You avoid that by sticking to traditional BrE usage.

We've never used political job titles as though they were military
titles in the UK, until in recent years. As in so many things, my
instincts are to blame the BBC for picking up on US habits but I have no
idea if that is the case.

"Prime Minister Thatcher", "Chancellor Osborne", "Foreign Secretary
Hague" etc are Just Not British.

So you fix your problem by saying:
> Did David Cameron, the Prime Minister, speak fondly of the former
> prime minister, Margaret Thatcher

We'll quietly ignore the fact that my rewording doesn't really solve the
problem - but I think it helps you think about how the word is being
used in each case.

[Peter Brooks]

On Apr 14, 4:09 pm, Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> On 14/04/13 18:56, Dr Nick wrote:
>

> > Berkeley Brett <royal...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >> I hope you are all well & in good spirits.
>
> >> As I see it, Mom and Dad made quite a few sacrifices bringing me up: so I think they've each earned a capital letter.
>
> >> Do you capitalize 'Mom' and 'Dad'?
>
> > I wouldn't be surprised if this is the first time I've ever written
> > "Mom" (with any capitalisation) in my entire life.
>
> I've seen it often enough, but I can never resist the temptation to
> pronounce it as written, which can give a strange effect.
>

To rhyme with 'bomb'? Isn't that how it's pronounced?

[Peter Brooks]

On Apr 15, 1:14 am, Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> On 15/04/13 00:08, Arcadian Rises wrote:
>
> > Once there was a trend not to capitalize anything; I thought it was
> > ridiculous when I read emails of some children of the sixties. But
> > nowadays when passwords became capital sensitive and I don't remember
> > if I used any caps, I begin to appreciate the simplicity of uniform
> > non-caps.
>
> At work we have a rule that a password must contain at least one
> upper-case letter, at least one lower-case letter, at least one digit,
> and at least one punctuation. There's also some sort of rule about
> minimum length.
>
> As a result, everyone has to have their password written on a note in
> their desk drawer. That's called security.
>
> I have so many passwords on different sites, mostly because of different
> rules at the different places, that I would be completely lost without
> LastPass.
>

The most difficult passwords to crack are phrases. I came to a site,
just yesterday, that didn't allow a space in a password.

There's a difference between people who wish to make something secure
for sound business reasons and the little hitlers who just want to
bully people - they're the ones that insist on silly passwords that
everybody has to write down.

[Peter Brooks]

On Apr 15, 8:08 am, Dr Nick <nospa...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
> "DavidW" <n...@email.provided> writes:
> > The capitalization trouble I have most is deciding whether to write "Prime
> > Minister" or "prime minister", "Government" or "government" etc., e.g., Did
> > Prime Minister David Cameron speak fondly of former Prime Minister Margaret
> > Thatcher or former prime minister Margaret Thatcher?
>
> You avoid that by sticking to traditional BrE usage.
>
> We've never used political job titles as though they were military
> titles in the UK, until in recent years.  As in so many things, my
> instincts are to blame the BBC for picking up on US habits but I have no
> idea if that is the case.
>
> "Prime Minister Thatcher", "Chancellor Osborne", "Foreign Secretary
> Hague" etc are Just Not British.
>

More to the point, they are just not English. They do sound very odd
and foreign when used.

[abc]

Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>
>> But it's personal or general use, not the familiarity of the context,
>> that rules. If you ask little Billingsgate, on a sleepover with your
>> grandchildren, "Do your mom and dad know you talk like that?", those
>> parents are lower-case.
>

> That's the rule I follow. They're capitalized when they're used in
> the same way as names. So are "Mother" and "Father". But when
> they're used as common nouns, as in "my mom", they're not.

"When used in the same way as NAMES" - THERE you hit the nail on the head.

Other "rules", referring to specific people or this or that context or
whatever, are just approximations that don't hold up when examined closely.
abc

[the Omrud]

In BrE the use of Mummy and Daddy by adults is marked as upper class.

--
David

[the Omrud]

On 15/04/2013 01:57, Robert Bannister wrote:
> On 15/04/13 6:21 AM, the Omrud wrote:
>> On 14/04/2013 11:08, DavidW wrote:
>>
>>> The capitalization trouble I have most is deciding whether to write
>>> "Prime Minister" or "prime minister", "Government" or "government" etc.,
>>> e.g., Did Prime Minister David Cameron speak fondly of former Prime Minister

>>> Margaret Mhatcher or former prime minister Margaret Thatcher?

>>
>> The latter, I hope. Prime Minister is not a title, but a job. It
>> should only be capitalised when addressing the job holder directly.
>
> Are we able to distinguish between titles, jobs and job titles? I would
> write "Chief Executive Officer" or "Second Assistant Secretary to the
> Minister" or "Primus Pilus of the Secret Committee (non-extant) of the
> A.U.E.".

I mean a title by which you address a person directly: Doctor Smith,
Professor Jones, President Regan. There are no (if you like, pre-nom)
titles of "Prime Minister", "Chancellor", "Home Secretary", etc, no
matter how much the US-influenced media want us to think there are.

In the quote above, Cameron is referring to the previous prime minister,
named Margaret Thatcher. Not to a person with the pre-nom title of
Prime Minister, since we don't have one of those.

--
David

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Examples?

--
athel

[R H Draney]

Peter Brooks filted:

>
>On Apr 14, 4:09=A0pm, Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>> On 14/04/13 18:56, Dr Nick wrote:
>>
>> > Berkeley Brett <royal...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> >> I hope you are all well & in good spirits.
>>

>> >> As I see it, Mom and Dad made quite a few sacrifices bringing me up: s=

>o I think they've each earned a capital letter.
>>
>> >> Do you capitalize 'Mom' and 'Dad'?
>>
>> > I wouldn't be surprised if this is the first time I've ever written
>> > "Mom" (with any capitalisation) in my entire life.
>>
>> I've seen it often enough, but I can never resist the temptation to
>> pronounce it as written, which can give a strange effect.
>>
>To rhyme with 'bomb'? Isn't that how it's pronounced?

I suppose he'd rather it rhyme with "from"....r

[R H Draney]

Peter Brooks filted:

>
>The most difficult passwords to crack are phrases. I came to a site,
>just yesterday, that didn't allow a space in a password.

The Hashtag Generation are at an advantage here, although they can still slip
up...just the other day, I heard that some people were reading
#nowthatcherisdead as "now that Cher is dead"....r

[CDB]

On 14/04/2013 9:27 PM, Arcadian Rises wrote:
> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> Stan Brown said:

[moms and dads]

>>>> (*) Mrs. Abraham's name was Sarah, right? I'm having a mental lapse.

>>> Yes. She was originally called Sarai, but for some reason that I've
>>> forgotten she changed it to Sarah.

>> She kept getting mixed up with her cousin, Caravan Serai.

> Also known as Seraglio, from whom she was abducted.

After which she lived quietly under the name of K. Sarah.

[CDB]

On 15/04/2013 5:13 AM, R H Draney wrote:
> Peter Brooks filted:

>> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>> Dr Nick wrote:
>>>> Berkeley Brett <royal...@gmail.com> writes:

>>>>> I hope you are all well & in good spirits.

>>>>> As I see it, Mom and Dad made quite a few sacrifices bringing me up: so

>>>>> I think they've each earned a capital letter.

>>>>> Do you capitalize 'Mom' and 'Dad'?

>>>> I wouldn't be surprised if this is the first time I've ever written
>>>> "Mom" (with any capitalisation) in my entire life.

>>> I've seen it often enough, but I can never resist the temptation to
>>> pronounce it as written, which can give a strange effect.

>> To rhyme with 'bomb'? Isn't that how it's pronounced?

> I suppose he'd rather it rhyme with "from"....r

It does for me (but for all I know, Mom spelled it "mum").

[Katy Jennison]

A Brit pronouncing it to rhyme with "from", "bomb", "Pom", "Tom" etc
would sound odd to an American.

--
Katy Jennison

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2013-04-15 16:01:11 +0200, Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> said:

> In message <at0a2h...@mid.individual.net>

> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>> On 2013-04-14 17:48:21 +0000, Stan Brown said:
>
>>> On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 13:50:05 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The sentence cries out to be put in the plural:
>>>> "Peoples's moms and dads are probably the most important figures in
>>>> their transformation to adulthood."
>>>
>>> I suppose Abraham and Sarah(*) would qualify as a people's mom and
>>> day. Do other peoples have recognized moms and dads, thus justifying
>>> the double plural?
>
>> It took a moment to see what you were getting at, but OK, a plural too

>> many: People's moms and dads

>>>
>>> (*) Mrs. Abraham's name was Sarah, right? I'm having a mental lapse.
>
>> Yes. She was originally called Sarai, but for some reason that I've
>> forgotten she changed it to Sarah.
>

> Wasn't Sarai her name when she was a slave?
>
> Or was that the one where "god" changed her name as part of some deal
> for her husband having a child with a slave?

That's more or less what I remember.

No doubt Evan or someone else who knows some Hebrew can tell us what
change in meaning the change of name implied.


--
athel

[Mike L]

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 10:01:10 -0400, James Silverton
<not.jim....@verizon.net> wrote:

>On 4/14/2013 9:49 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 08:48:29 +0000 (UTC), Eric Walker
>> <em...@owlcroft.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 01:32:01 -0700, Berkeley Brett wrote:
>>>

>>>> As I see it, Mom and Dad made quite a few sacrifices bringing me up: so
>>>> I think they've each earned a capital letter.
>>>>
>>>> Do you capitalize 'Mom' and 'Dad'?
>>>

>>> I, at least, follow the general rule: when the pronoun points to a
>>> particular thing, it is eligible for capitalization; otherwise not.
>>>
>>> I am very grateful to my Mom and Dad for the opportunities they gave me.
>>>
>>> A person's mom and dad are probably the most important figures in his
>>> or her transformation to adulthood.
>>>
>> While I agree with your "rule", the above sentence seems very
>> inappropriate to me. Using "mom and dad", instead of "mother and
>> father", when it is not a reference to specific people seems juvenile.
>>
>> I can see referring to my "Mom and Dad", and your "Mom and Dad", but
>> not mom and dad as terms as a general replacement for "mother" and
>> "father".
>>
>

>I agree completely and, in fact quite dislike "mom" and "dad" as
>replacements for "mother" and "father". A newspaper headline like "DA
>says Mom Killed Family" or in the text "The Bottencourt county DA, O.
>Howe Dewey, said that it seemed the mom killed her family." seem
>incongruous. Capitalized "Mom" and "Dad" are for discussions with my
>children and close acquaintances.

You two are so RIGHT! I would never refer to another family's parents
by the pet forms: bloody rude. These days, however, "mother" is
practically a tabu word in British journalism, with "father" coming up
on the rails. Even the formidable feminist Jenni Murray calls female
parents "mums". I think there are at least two things going on here.
First, advertising and journalism want to get intimate with us whether
we like it or not: the most famous British bogroll is presenting as an
interesting controversy whether we wipe our arses with "scrunched" or
"folded" paper (I now buy another brand). I also, more questionably,
wonder if many writers are actually rather uncomfortable with the idea
of motherhood, and would like to euphemise it out of the way.

I'm quite a matey type, but I highly value my private space.

--
Mike.

[Mike L]

Hence the bizarre old "Modom" meme: American spelling met British
vowels, and got absorbed for unintended comic purposes.

--
Mike.

[Mike L]

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 01:32:01 -0700 (PDT), Berkeley Brett
<roya...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I hope you are all well & in good spirits.
>

>As I see it, Mom and Dad made quite a few sacrifices bringing me up: so I think they've each earned a capital letter.
>
>Do you capitalize 'Mom' and 'Dad'?

(Answered elsewhere in this thread.)

>
>Additional questions about capitalization:
>
>1. Are there some words we do not capitalize that we should?

Practice varies, and is sometimes quite vigorously disputed.

Formally, I follow the technical practice of giving the English names
of flora and fauna capital letters: Levant Sparrowhawk, Purple Viper's
Bugloss.

>
>In essays that I write primarily for my own later reading, I capitalize most virtues and other excellent qualities: Compassion, Wisdom, Diligence, Patience, etc. We give the Honorable Judge Smith multiple capital letters, though (s)he may or may not be honorable. But Honor *itself* is surely the real, noble, and capital-letter-worthy thing.
>

It's all right for private use, but if I saw the names of those
qualities with capital intials in print I'd take it as an indication
of personification.

>2. Are there some words we capitalize but should not.

I don't, but there are those who cap up seasons and points of the
compass. There must be some more examples.

>
>Nothing springs to my mind, but perhaps it does to yours.
>

>Thank you all in advance for any thoughts you choose to share....

--
Mike.

[John Briggs]

It depends on the age of the children. What would you say to "Mother"
and "Father"? (The daughter of one of my friends had "Mum" and "Dad" on
her mobile phone - in case someone else saw it...)
--
John Briggs

[John Briggs]

On 15/04/2013 21:38, Mike L wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 01:32:01 -0700 (PDT), Berkeley Brett
> <roya...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I hope you are all well & in good spirits.
>>
>> As I see it, Mom and Dad made quite a few sacrifices bringing me up: so I think they've each earned a capital letter.
>>
>> Do you capitalize 'Mom' and 'Dad'?
>
> (Answered elsewhere in this thread.)
>>
>> Additional questions about capitalization:
>>
>> 1. Are there some words we do not capitalize that we should?
>
> Practice varies, and is sometimes quite vigorously disputed.
>
> Formally, I follow the technical practice of giving the English names
> of flora and fauna capital letters: Levant Sparrowhawk, Purple Viper's
> Bugloss.
>>
>> In essays that I write primarily for my own later reading, I capitalize most virtues and other excellent qualities: Compassion, Wisdom, Diligence, Patience, etc. We give the Honorable Judge Smith multiple capital letters, though (s)he may or may not be honorable. But Honor *itself* is surely the real, noble, and capital-letter-worthy thing.
>>
> It's all right for private use, but if I saw the names of those
> qualities with capital intials in print I'd take it as an indication
> of personification.

Probably because it is...
--
John Briggs

[Tony Cooper]

Whatever happened to "Mumsie"? Don't you have to have a trust fund to
have a Mumsie?

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL

[James Silverton]

Do you sometimes post under the name "Muffy"?

--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not" in Reply To.

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 14:06:09 +0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>In message <egclm896de2vpue82...@4ax.com>

> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 08:48:29 +0000 (UTC), Eric Walker
>> <em...@owlcroft.com> wrote:
>
>>>On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 01:32:01 -0700, Berkeley Brett wrote:
>>>
>>>> As I see it, Mom and Dad made quite a few sacrifices bringing me up: so
>>>> I think they've each earned a capital letter.
>>>>
>>>> Do you capitalize 'Mom' and 'Dad'?
>>>
>>>I, at least, follow the general rule: when the pronoun points to a
>>>particular thing, it is eligible for capitalization; otherwise not.
>>>
>>> I am very grateful to my Mom and Dad for the opportunities they gave me.
>>>
>>> A person's mom and dad are probably the most important figures in his
>>> or her transformation to adulthood.
>>>
>> While I agree with your "rule", the above sentence seems very
>> inappropriate to me. Using "mom and dad", instead of "mother and
>> father", when it is not a reference to specific people seems juvenile.
>
>> I can see referring to my "Mom and Dad", and your "Mom and Dad", but
>> not mom and dad as terms as a general replacement for "mother" and
>> "father".
>

>The way I learned it was that my aunt, my mom, my dad, my teacher, etc were all always lowercase. If you used one of those as a form of address, then it was capitalized.
>
>Like I told you, Mom said we could order a pizza.
>Like I told you, Aunt Mary said we could order a pizza.
>
>BUT
>
>My aunt was named Mary after her cousin.
>
>Like I told you, Dad said we could order a pizza.
>Like I told you, Teacher said we could order a pizza.
>
>BUT
>
>Like I told you, the teacher said we could order a pizza.
>
>I, myself, would never use "Teacher" as a replacement for a person's name.

I agree with you on the caps thing, but that wasn't my point. It's
the media's use of "mom" and "dad" that I don't agree with.

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 21:38:57 +0100, Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>I don't, but there are those who cap up seasons and points of the
>compass. There must be some more examples.
>>
>>Nothing springs to my mind, but perhaps it does to yours.
>>
>>Thank you all in advance for any thoughts you choose to share....

I cap "North", "East", "West", and "South" when I am referring to a
particular aspect of that area: "He's from the East, so he doesn't
wear socks with loafers". "I'm from the south, not the South". "He's
from cattle country out West."

Westerners are from Texas or Oklahoma or one of those states, but
Californians live too far west to be Westerners. Easterners live in
New York, but there aren't any in neighboring New Jersey. There are
some around Boston, though. Up in Maine and New Hampshire, they live
Down East. I've heard "Up East", but I don't know where that is.

Hoosiers, and their neighbors in Illinois and Ohio are "Midwesterners"
and live in the Midwest. Some Kentuckians, but not all, are
Southerners.

People from Wisconsin have no compass point references. They are
Cheeseheads.

I have no idea how to describe a person from North or South Dakota.
It's never been necessary for me to know.

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Berkeley Brett <roya...@gmail.com> writes:

> I hope you are all well & in good spirits.
>

> As I see it, Mom and Dad made quite a few sacrifices bringing me up:
> so I think they've each earned a capital letter.
>
> Do you capitalize 'Mom' and 'Dad'?

I capitalize it only when it's used as a proper noun as a proxy for
the person's name:

Where's Mom?
Hey, Dad, could you come help me?
I told Mom we'd meet her at five.

but not when it's used in a description

I spoke to my mom yesterday.
Is your mom coming?

I use the same rule for other similar descriptions, e.g., Professor,
Doctor, Nurse, Coach, Rabbi, Grandmother, Master.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Of course, over the first 10^-10
SF Bay Area (1982-) |seconds and 10^-30 cubic
Chicago (1964-1982) |centimeters it averages out to
|zero, but when you look in
evan.kir...@gmail.com |detail....
| Philip Morrison
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Okay, first off, Sarah wasn't ever, as far as I can recall, a slave.
Hagar, who bore Abra(ha)m's first child, Ishmael, was Sarai's slave,
and Sarai gave her to her husband. Yeah, she got pissed off when
Hagar got pregnant, and the name changing came just after that, but
it's not presented as a quid pro quo. (And, indeed, the name change
is held to be a P story and the getting pissed off is considered a J
story.)

As for the name changes, which came as part of the whole covenant
given to Abraham (and the changes were made by God), both Abram and
Sarai got a heh added to their names. "Ab-raham" is literally "father
of multitudes", while "Sarah" is, according to the footnote in the
NJPS translation, "princess". (Google Translate doesn't give that for
"princess", but it does give "sar" as one option for "prince".)

So it looks as though it was just a matter of taking two names that
didn't have any particular meaning and transforming them into names
that were full of importance.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Sometimes I think the surest sign
SF Bay Area (1982-) |that intelligent life exists
Chicago (1964-1982) |elsewhere in the universe is that
|none of it has tried to contact us.
evan.kir...@gmail.com | Calvin

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Robert Bannister]

I like that version best so far. Much applause.
--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 15/04/13 10:06 PM, Lewis wrote:

> I, myself, would never use "Teacher" as a replacement for a person's name.
>

Certainly not. When I was of an age where the desire to refer to
Teacher-as-a-name might have entered my head, the word was "Miss" -
whether married or not and sometimes even for male teachers.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

I would certainly use lower case as you do in the paragraph above, but I
would write about the Prime Minister if I didn't add the name, but I was
referring to a specific person like David Cameron, Julia Gillard,
Stephen Harper or David Key - for example, I would write, "Today, the
Prime Minister claimed we were all wealthy". Similarly, with president
and other job titles.

Now, I agree with you entirely that we would not, in conversation, even
if we knew the people concerned, say things like "Please to meet you,
Home Secretary", so yes, we do not use job titles as names. But then, I
frequently meet in American (fantasy) novels things like "Please to meet
you, duke".

--
Robert Bannister

[Eric Walker]

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 17:15:56 -0400, Tony Cooper wrote:

[...]

> I agree with you on the caps thing, but that wasn't my point. It's the
> media's use of "mom" and "dad" that I don't agree with.

Most of the print media's murdering of English arises from their
desperate desire to subtract out every possible character from the text,
so as to fit more in. "Mom" and "Dad" save three character each over
"Mother" and "Father"; by newspaper standards, three characters saved is
a huge triumph (saving one character, such as a series-terminating comma,
is already an accomplishment).


--
Cordially,
Eric Walker

[Robert Bannister]

On 15/04/13 1:18 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Apr 14, 5:32 pm, Eric Walker <em...@owlcroft.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 10:29:08 -0700, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> "The" in names of institutions, as in the pretentious "The Ohio State
>>> University". Although I can't say "we" capitalize them, since I don't.
>>
>> There are a few that always seem bizarre to me either way (that is,
>> neither looks right):
>>
>> It was the laugh of The Shadow.
>> It was the laugh of the Shadow.
>>
>> That masked man was The Lone Ranger.
>> That masked man was the Lone Ranger.
>>
>> Mr Templar is better known as The Saint.
>> Mr Templar is better known as the Saint.
>>
>> I believe that in all those cases, the capitalized article is the
>> canonical form.
>
> They all look better to me with "the".
>
> Here's a book with "The Shadow":
>
> http://ebooks.gutenberg.us/WorldeBookLibrary.com/pulpy103.htm
>
> Here's one with "the Saint":

That's the version I find strange. I would write either "The Saint" or
the "Saint".

--
Robert Bannister

[Skitt]

Robert Bannister wrote:

> Now, I agree with you entirely that we would not, in conversation, even
> if we knew the people concerned, say things like "Please to meet you,
> Home Secretary", so yes, we do not use job titles as names. But then, I
> frequently meet in American (fantasy) novels things like "Please to meet
> you, duke".
>

A puzzlement -- why is the final d in "Pleased" missing in both of your
"Pleased to meet you ..." instances?

--
Skitt (SF Bay Area)
http://home.comcast.net/~skitt99/main.html

[Eric Walker]

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 22:18:06 -0700, Jerry Friedman wrote:

[...]

> They all look better to me with "the".
>
> Here's a book with "The Shadow":
>
> http://ebooks.gutenberg.us/WorldeBookLibrary.com/pulpy103.htm
>
> Here's one with "the Saint":
>

> http://www.e-reading-lib.org/bookreader.php/71222/Charteris_-
_The_Saint_Meets_the_Tiger.html
>
> I suppose that for the Lone Ranger, you'd have to find a comic book that
> used lower case, or some source about him that you trust.

In Clayton Moore's autobiography, _I Was That Masked Man_, he lower-cases
the article, as do the writers of the several introductions and
prefaces. So does, for example, Jim Harmon in _The Great Radio Heroes_.
So I guess for that one, the initial-capped article is not canonical.

On the other hand, Harmon carefully refers throughout to The Shadow,
which accords with my memories of usage in both the old pulps and the
newer paperback revivals.

Likewise, checking Leslie Charteris's own works, he refers throughout to
"the Saint".

So the only canonical capped-article character of that lot is The
Shadow. I call, "Speak, memory" and it stutters. Pfui.


--
Cordially,
Eric Walker

[R H Draney]

Eric Walker filted:

It's interesting that as El Zorro moved from magazine serial to silent film to
talkies to television, his identity largely lost its Spanish article, while at
the same time his civilian alter ego went from plain "Diego Vega" to "Don Diego
de la Vega"....r

[the Omrud]

On 15/04/2013 21:48, John Briggs wrote:
> On 15/04/2013 08:47, the Omrud wrote:
>> On 15/04/2013 01:47, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>
>>> It is very "modern" to use baby talk when and wherever possible. We
>>> should be thankful they're not using "People's mummies and daddies".
>>
>> In BrE the use of Mummy and Daddy by adults is marked as upper class.
>
> It depends on the age of the children.

Er, the children are adults - that was my point.

> What would you say to "Mother"
> and "Father"? (The daughter of one of my friends had "Mum" and "Dad" on
> her mobile phone - in case someone else saw it...)

Stiff and formal, and fairly unlikely these days from any class.

--
David

[the Omrud]

I remember, at the age of about 16, wanting to attract the attention of
one of a pair of female teachers who were walking down the corridor
ahead of me. "Miss", I called. They both turned round and asked which
one I was calling. When I chose one, the other said "I'm a Miss, but
she's a Mrs.". I was left unable to speak, since clearly I couldn't
call out "Missus", to attract a teacher.

They were, of course, having fun with my embarrassment. Must make a
teacher's life a little more interesting.

--
David

[Nick Spalding]

the Omrud wrote, in <8iabt.2858$FR3....@fx30.fr7>
on Tue, 16 Apr 2013 12:06:54 +0100:

My lot sometimes do it jokingly.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

[Mike L]

On Tue, 16 Apr 2013 12:12:05 +0100, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
wrote:

It's a nuisance that social considerations have made it almost
impossible for us to use "Ma'am" and "Sir" in ordinary intercourse.

--
Mike.

[Robert Bannister]

On 16/04/13 9:10 AM, Skitt wrote:
> Robert Bannister wrote:
>
>> Now, I agree with you entirely that we would not, in conversation, even
>> if we knew the people concerned, say things like "Please to meet you,
>> Home Secretary", so yes, we do not use job titles as names. But then, I
>> frequently meet in American (fantasy) novels things like "Please to meet
>> you, duke".
>>
> A puzzlement -- why is the final d in "Pleased" missing in both of your
> "Pleased to meet you ..." instances?
>

I'm puzzled too.
[Checks to make sure there is a d on 'puzzled']

Sorry if I caused you mental pain.
--
Robert Bannister

[Dr Nick]

I do, sometimes to their faces ("oh come on Mother!" and sometimes
elsewhere "Remind me: I must phone Mother tonight").

[R H Draney]

Dr Nick filted:

If you want to make the intent clear, switch to Latin: "Mater will be *ever* so
pleased!"...

BTW, I keep getting an uneasy feeling when I look at the subject line of this
thread...most would consider it rude to sell one's parents for cash....r

[Robert Bannister]

On the other hand, investing Mum and Dad isn't very nice either.

--
Robert Bannister

[John Holmes]

Robert Bannister wrote:
>
> I only capitalised them in direct address. So I always wrote "my mum",
> but in letters would write "Dear Mum". I have no excuse for why I
> mostly capitalise points of the compass and the names of seasons.

A compass point should only be capitalised when it appears in a heading.

--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au

[Robert Bannister]

On 17/04/13 6:46 PM, John Holmes wrote:
> Robert Bannister wrote:
>>
>> I only capitalised them in direct address. So I always wrote "my mum",
>> but in letters would write "Dear Mum". I have no excuse for why I
>> mostly capitalise points of the compass and the names of seasons.
>
> A compass point should only be capitalised when it appears in a heading.
>

As I said: I have no excuse, but those capitals keep on appearing
however hard I try.
--
Robert Bannister

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> writes:

> On 15/04/2013 01:57, Robert Bannister wrote:
>> On 15/04/13 6:21 AM, the Omrud wrote:
>>> On 14/04/2013 11:08, DavidW wrote:
>>>
>>>> The capitalization trouble I have most is deciding whether to
>>>> write "Prime Minister" or "prime minister", "Government" or
>>>> "government" etc., e.g., Did Prime Minister David Cameron speak
>>>> fondly of former Prime Minister Margaret Mhatcher or former prime
>>>> minister Margaret Thatcher?
>>>
>>> The latter, I hope. Prime Minister is not a title, but a job. It
>>> should only be capitalised when addressing the job holder directly.
>>
>> Are we able to distinguish between titles, jobs and job titles? I
>> would write "Chief Executive Officer" or "Second Assistant
>> Secretary to the Minister" or "Primus Pilus of the Secret Committee
>> (non-extant) of the A.U.E.".
>
> I mean a title by which you address a person directly: Doctor Smith,
> Professor Jones, President Regan. There are no (if you like,
> pre-nom) titles of "Prime Minister", "Chancellor", "Home Secretary",
> etc, no matter how much the US-influenced media want us to think
> there are.

Your media make it easy to believe that there are. Here,

<URL:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/9971026/
David-Cameron-chugged-down-rice-wine-with-Japans-prime-minister.html>

for example, is a recent photograph in the _Telegraph_ captioned
"Prime Minister David Cameron with Yoshihiko Nodo". Nodo is described
elsewhere as "the former Japanese prime minister", so presumably the
capitals before Cameron are intended to be significant.

The _Times_ similarly has "Prime Minister Cameron with Baroness
Thatcher outside No 10".

And it apparently extends to the [Pp]rime [Mm]inister's office:

Prime Minister David Cameron has welcomed the adoption of an Arms
Trade Treaty by the United Nations General Assembly.

http://www.number10.gov.uk/news/pm-statement-arms-trade-treaty/

>
> In the quote above, Cameron is referring to the previous prime
> minister, named Margaret Thatcher. Not to a person with the pre-nom
> title of Prime Minister, since we don't have one of those.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |"The Dynamics of Interbeing and
SF Bay Area (1982-) |Monological Imperatives in 'Dick
Chicago (1964-1982) |and Jane' : A Study in Psychic
|Transrelational Modes."
evan.kir...@gmail.com | Calvin

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Peter Brooks <peter.h....@gmail.com> writes:

> On Apr 15, 1:14 am, Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>> On 15/04/13 00:08, Arcadian Rises wrote:
>>
>> > Once there was a trend not to capitalize anything; I thought it
>> > was ridiculous when I read emails of some children of the
>> > sixties. But nowadays when passwords became capital sensitive and
>> > I don't remember if I used any caps, I begin to appreciate the
>> > simplicity of uniform non-caps.
>>
>> At work we have a rule that a password must contain at least one
>> upper-case letter, at least one lower-case letter, at least one digit,
>> and at least one punctuation. There's also some sort of rule about
>> minimum length.
>>
>> As a result, everyone has to have their password written on a note in
>> their desk drawer. That's called security.
>>
>> I have so many passwords on different sites, mostly because of different
>> rules at the different places, that I would be completely lost without
>> LastPass.

Exactly what I was going to suggest.

> The most difficult passwords to crack

and among the easiest to remember.

> are phrases. I came to a site, just yesterday, that didn't allow a
> space in a password.

I find it relatively easy to type phrases capitalizing each word
rather than using spaces, which satisfies both the "no spaces" and
"must have a capital letter" requirement, while allowing a nicely
secure password when it matters. The problem is when they come back
with "password too long". Well, yeah. I wanted it to be hard to
crack.

> There's a difference between people who wish to make something secure
> for sound business reasons and the little hitlers who just want to
> bully people - they're the ones that insist on silly passwords that
> everybody has to write down.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |This gubblick contains many
SF Bay Area (1982-) |nonsklarkish English flutzpahs, but
Chicago (1964-1982) |the overall pluggandisp can be
|glorked from context.
evan.kir...@gmail.com |
| David Moser
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> writes:

> On Apr 14, 5:32�pm, Eric Walker <em...@owlcroft.com> wrote:

>> On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 10:29:08 -0700, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>

>> > "The" in names of institutions, as in the pretentious "The Ohio State
>> > University". �Although I can't say "we" capitalize them, since I don't.
>>
>> There are a few that always seem bizarre to me either way (that is,
>> neither looks right):
>>
>> � �It was the laugh of The Shadow.
>> � �It was the laugh of the Shadow.
>>
>> � �That masked man was The Lone Ranger.
>> � �That masked man was the Lone Ranger.
>>
>> � �Mr Templar is better known as The Saint.
>> � �Mr Templar is better known as the Saint.
>>
>> I believe that in all those cases, the capitalized article is the
>> canonical form.
>

> They all look better to me with "the".
>
> Here's a book with "The Shadow":
>
> http://ebooks.gutenberg.us/WorldeBookLibrary.com/pulpy103.htm
>
> Here's one with "the Saint":
>
> http://www.e-reading-lib.org/bookreader.php/71222/Charteris_-_The_Saint_Meets_the_Tiger.html
>
> I suppose that for the Lone Ranger, you'd have to find a comic book
> that used lower case, or some source about him that you trust.

The Lone Ranger was a radio serial (1933) and then a series of novels
(1936) before it was a comic book (1948) or even a comic strip (1938).
Fran Striker's 1941 novel _The Lone Ranger Rides_ gives it as "the
Lone Ranger" in the text.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |When correctly viewed,
SF Bay Area (1982-) | Everything is lewd.
Chicago (1964-1982) |I could tell you things
| about Peter Pan,
evan.kir...@gmail.com |and the Wizard of Oz--
| there's a dirty old man!
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Tom Lehrer

[Jerry Friedman]

On Apr 19, 9:59 am, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> writes:
> > On Apr 14, 5:32 pm, Eric Walker <em...@owlcroft.com> wrote:
> >> On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 10:29:08 -0700, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
> >> [...]
>
> >> > "The" in names of institutions, as in the pretentious "The Ohio State
> >> > University". Although I can't say "we" capitalize them, since I don't.
>
> >> There are a few that always seem bizarre to me either way (that is,
> >> neither looks right):
>
> >> It was the laugh of The Shadow.
> >> It was the laugh of the Shadow.
>
> >> That masked man was The Lone Ranger.
> >> That masked man was the Lone Ranger.

...

> > I suppose that for the Lone Ranger, you'd have to find a comic book
> > that used lower case, or some source about him that you trust.
>
> The Lone Ranger was a radio serial (1933) and then a series of novels
> (1936) before it was a comic book (1948) or even a comic strip (1938).
> Fran Striker's 1941 novel _The Lone Ranger Rides_ gives it as "the
> Lone Ranger" in the text.

I was thinking the radio serial wouldn't help. I didn't know about
the novels, though. That seems to settle it, as corroborated by the
sources Eric gave.

--
Jerry Friedman

[the Omrud]

Those are sort of tolerable. They give the description of the type of
person and then the name of the individual who fills that position, for
this purpose. Like: "Primary school teacher Lucy Locket said ..." or
"Eye-witness Margaret Muffet reported seeing ..."

But addressing somebody as "Prime Minister Cameron" would be very weird.
But when I referred to the "US-influenced media", I meant our very own
media, which would really like to be American.

--
David

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

So is David Cameron prime minister or Prime Minister? I'll draw your
attention to the fact that both the "P" and the "M" are capitalized in
each of those examples, even when, in one case, someone else is
described as a "former Japanese prime minister".

> But addressing somebody as "Prime Minister Cameron" would be very
> weird. But when I referred to the "US-influenced media", I meant our
> very own media, which would really like to be American.

--

Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a
SF Bay Area (1982-) |barbarian, and thinks that the
Chicago (1964-1982) |customs of his tribe and island are
|the laws of nature.
evan.kir...@gmail.com |
| Shaw, _Caesar & Cleopatra_
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

And I was going to say that I would have called "Ma'am".

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |If a bus station is where a bus
SF Bay Area (1982-) |stops, and a train station is where
Chicago (1964-1982) |a train stops, what does that say
|about a workstation?
evan.kir...@gmail.com

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Robert Bannister]

Long passwords are great so long as you're using the keyboard, but when
you come to a site that insists you enter it by using mouse clicks over
a picture of a keyboard, and when you're using a touch pad instead of a
mouse, you suddenly feel the need for short passwords again.

--
Robert Bannister

[Peter Moylan]

I do have an excuse. I upper-case Spring whenever there's a risk of
confusion between the season and the coiled metal thing.

The pressure to do that must be even greater for those who have a season
called Fall.

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

[Eric Walker]

On Tue, 16 Apr 2013 21:57:15 +0100, Mike L wrote:

[...]

> It's a nuisance that social considerations have made it almost
> impossible for us to use "Ma'am" and "Sir" in ordinary intercourse.

Have they? I do not find it so.


--
Cordially,
Eric Walker

[Dr Nick]

I was thinking about this in bed and came up with half a dozen more
examples where we don't use titles the way AmE does, but I seem to have
forgotten most of them apart from "Mayor" and "Judge". Boris may be the
Mayor of London, but he's not "Mayor Johnson". Igor may be a judge
called Judge but he's not (unfortunately) "Judge Judge".

[the Omrud]

On 19/04/2013 23:57, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>
>> On Tue, 16 Apr 2013 12:12:05 +0100, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I remember, at the age of about 16, wanting to attract the attention of
>>> one of a pair of female teachers who were walking down the corridor
>>> ahead of me. "Miss", I called. They both turned round and asked which
>>> one I was calling. When I chose one, the other said "I'm a Miss, but
>>> she's a Mrs.". I was left unable to speak, since clearly I couldn't
>>> call out "Missus", to attract a teacher.
>>>
>>> They were, of course, having fun with my embarrassment. Must make a
>>> teacher's life a little more interesting.
>>
>> It's a nuisance that social considerations have made it almost
>> impossible for us to use "Ma'am" and "Sir" in ordinary intercourse.
>
> And I was going to say that I would have called "Ma'am".

All female teachers in the UK are addressed as "Miss", no matter what
their age or marital status.

--
David

[the Omrud]

I refer my honourable friend to my comment about the UK media being
"US-influenced". They may well be using the title as a personal title,
but it's just not British English. It will be, I suppose <big sigh>.

--
David

[Dr Nick]

He's right you know. I made almost the exact same point - including how
the media are trying to change BrE here - at almost the same moment.

[Eric Walker]

On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 09:55:15 +0100, Dr Nick wrote:

> the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> writes:

[...]

>> I refer my honourable friend to my comment about the UK media being
>> "US-influenced". They may well be using the title as a personal title,
>> but it's just not British English. It will be, I suppose <big sigh>.
>
> He's right you know. I made almost the exact same point - including how
> the media are trying to change BrE here - at almost the same moment.

Not a new topic: see _The American Language_, H. L. Mencken, c. 1936
(there were several editions).


--
Cordially,
Eric Walker