What is a vaulted ceiling?

[Dingbat]

What is a vaulted ceiling?
https://bungalow.com/articles/what-is-a-vaulted-ceiling

Vaulted seems a misnomer for this kind of ceiling but common realtor
speak in the US. It's a sloped ceiling. What do the Brits call this ceiling?

IMHO, vaults are as described here:
https://in.pinterest.com/pin/362962051201126027/

A vaulted ceiling kit is never a kit to build a sloped ceiling;
it is one to build what I call a vaulted ceiling:
https://www.archwaysandceilings.com/products/cloister-vaults

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 20:41:56 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
<ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>What is a vaulted ceiling?
>https://bungalow.com/articles/what-is-a-vaulted-ceiling
>
>Vaulted seems a misnomer for this kind of ceiling but common realtor
>speak in the US. It's a sloped ceiling.

No, it is not a "sloped" ceiling. A sloped ceiling would be higher at
one side than at the other side.

What is described in that article is a self-supporting arched ceiling,
and it can be composed of straight or curved lines.

It is not "Realtor®" speak. It is an architectural term. Real estate
agents speak of houses that others have designed and built. If they
say it is a "vaulted ceiling", they are using the term the architect
used.

("Realtor® is a trademarked non-word that real estate agents have
coined. A real estate agent is not a Realtor® unless he/she is a
registered real estate agent and a member of the National Association
of Realtors.) A real estate agent is not required to be a member, but
most are because there's a minimal cost to joining.

https://www.nar.realtor/membership/how-to-join-nar

What do the Brits call this ceiling?

The above applies to US architects and real estate agents.
--

Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

[Mark Brader]

Ranjit Mathews:
>> ...common realtor speak in the US...

Tony Cooper:

> ("Realtor® is a trademarked non-word that real estate agents have
> coined. A real estate agent is not a Realtor® unless he/she is a
> registered real estate agent and a member of the National Association
> of Realtors.)

You forgot "in countries where that trademark exists". Ranjit may
not be in one of them.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "It's a massive 'Get out of Euclid free' card."
m...@vex.net | --Matt Parker

[J. J. Lodder]

Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> What is a vaulted ceiling?
> https://bungalow.com/articles/what-is-a-vaulted-ceiling
>
> Vaulted seems a misnomer for this kind of ceiling but common realtor
> speak in the US. It's a sloped ceiling. What do the Brits call this ceiling?

Right, just American bigspeak.
Real vaulted ceilings are the ones you see
in (medieval) churches.

A vaulted ceiling is a self-supported arch
above the walls and below the roof.

Jan

[Peter Moylan]

On 31/08/21 19:05, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> What is a vaulted ceiling?
>> https://bungalow.com/articles/what-is-a-vaulted-ceiling
>>
>> Vaulted seems a misnomer for this kind of ceiling but common
>> realtor speak in the US. It's a sloped ceiling. What do the Brits
>> call this ceiling?
>
> Right, just American bigspeak. Real vaulted ceilings are the ones
> you see in (medieval) churches.
>
> A vaulted ceiling is a self-supported arch above the walls and below
> the roof.

Agreed. I'd normally expect a church if someone mentioned a vaulted ceiling.

I did once meet someone who bought an ancient castle and renovated it.
(The renovation still had a long way to go when I met him.) That was the
only time I ever saw a vaulted ceiling in a private home.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[J. J. Lodder]

Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 31/08/21 19:05, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> What is a vaulted ceiling?
> >> https://bungalow.com/articles/what-is-a-vaulted-ceiling
> >>
> >> Vaulted seems a misnomer for this kind of ceiling but common
> >> realtor speak in the US. It's a sloped ceiling. What do the Brits
> >> call this ceiling?
> >
> > Right, just American bigspeak. Real vaulted ceilings are the ones
> > you see in (medieval) churches.
> >
> > A vaulted ceiling is a self-supported arch above the walls and below
> > the roof.
>
> Agreed. I'd normally expect a church if someone mentioned a vaulted ceiling.

Rich barons or bishops built homes with vaulted ceilings too.
In those times they didn't care about space heating.

Doing so in a donjon had a defensive advantage too.
You could flee upstairs as a last resort,
in the hope that a last minute relief force would turn up.
If you had a vault instead of wooden beams
the enemy couldn't burn the floor under your feet.

> I did once meet someone who bought an ancient castle and renovated it.
> (The renovation still had a long way to go when I met him.) That was the
> only time I ever saw a vaulted ceiling in a private home.

Vaulting was more common for cellars,
and many 'ordinary' homes had a vaulted one,

Jan

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 01:36:02 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

>Ranjit Mathews:
>>> ...common realtor speak in the US...
>
>Tony Cooper:
>> ("Realtor® is a trademarked non-word that real estate agents have
>> coined. A real estate agent is not a Realtor® unless he/she is a
>> registered real estate agent and a member of the National Association
>> of Realtors.)
>
>You forgot "in countries where that trademark exists". Ranjit may
>not be in one of them.

No, I did not forget that. The post included this line:

"The above applies to US architects and real estate agents.|

Rather than note each point that it is true in the US, but perhaps not
elsewhere, adding that line indicates that all above applies to the
US.

The fact that the trademark is not recognized in a country does not
mean the trademark should be used incorrectly in that country. What
it means is that there's no legal protection to the trademark holder
if it is used incorrectly.

Realtor® is not an English word. It is a tradename devised by the NAR
to describe a member of their organization.

Ranjit should not use "cheerios" to mean any breakfast cereal. He
need not add the ® or capitalize word if he writes "cheerios", but he
should understand that it's a brand name.

[Ken Blake]

On 8/31/2021 1:05 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> What is a vaulted ceiling?
>> https://bungalow.com/articles/what-is-a-vaulted-ceiling
>>
>> Vaulted seems a misnomer for this kind of ceiling but common realtor
>> speak in the US. It's a sloped ceiling. What do the Brits call this ceiling?
>
> Right, just American bigspeak.
> Real vaulted ceilings are the ones you see
> in (medieval) churches.

Also Rennaissance and Gothic churches.


--
Ken

[Ken Blake]

On 8/31/2021 12:31 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 31/08/21 19:05, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What is a vaulted ceiling?
>>> https://bungalow.com/articles/what-is-a-vaulted-ceiling
>>>
>>> Vaulted seems a misnomer for this kind of ceiling but common
>>> realtor speak in the US. It's a sloped ceiling. What do the Brits
>>> call this ceiling?
>>
>> Right, just American bigspeak. Real vaulted ceilings are the ones
>> you see in (medieval) churches.
>>
>> A vaulted ceiling is a self-supported arch above the walls and below
>> the roof.
>
> Agreed. I'd normally expect a church if someone mentioned a vaulted ceiling.

I remember seeing a vaulted ceiling in a public building (I forgot its
name) in Dubrovnik. And I've also seen them in several castles in Europe.

> I did once meet someone who bought an ancient castle and renovated it.
> (The renovation still had a long way to go when I met him.) That was the
> only time I ever saw a vaulted ceiling in a private home.

Speaking of what you expect to find in churches, but not private homes.
I've been in only one home that had a pipe organ. The pipes jutted out
of the upper wall at one end of the living room, and the console was on
the other side of the room.



--
Ken

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, August 30, 2021 at 11:41:58 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:

> What is a vaulted ceiling?
> https://bungalow.com/articles/what-is-a-vaulted-ceiling

A ceiling that was jumped over, of course!

[Dingbat]

On Tuesday, August 31, 2021 at 10:07:34 AM UTC+5:30, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 20:41:56 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
> <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >What is a vaulted ceiling?
> >https://bungalow.com/articles/what-is-a-vaulted-ceiling
> >
> >Vaulted seems a misnomer for this kind of ceiling but common realtor
> >speak in the US. It's a sloped ceiling.
> No, it is not a "sloped" ceiling. A sloped ceiling would be higher at
> one side than at the other side.
>
> What is described in that article is a self-supporting arched ceiling,
> and it can be composed of straight or curved lines.
>
> It is not "Realtor®" speak. It is an architectural term. Real estate
> agents speak of houses that others have designed and built. If they
> say it is a "vaulted ceiling", they are using the term the architect
> used.
>
> ("Realtor® is a trademarked non-word that real estate agents have
> coined. A real estate agent is not a Realtor® unless he/she is a
> registered real estate agent and a member of the National Association
> of Realtors.) A real estate agent is not required to be a member, but
> most are because there's a minimal cost to joining.
> https://www.nar.realtor/membership/how-to-join-nar

In the movie "A Series of Unfortunate Events" based on 3 books by
American Daniel Handler, pen name Lemony Snicket, Jane Lynch
makes a cameo appearance as a Realtor. She might well be
appearing as a member of the NAR. Nevertheless, Aunt
Josephine's stated fear of realtors
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_wGGOjxHEA>
seems to mean fear of real estate agents, including Realtors®.
If she feared only real estate agents who are Realtors®,
she'd sell her house through one who's not a Realtor®.

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 11:11:52 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat

I don't think the average home buyer/home seller pays any attention or
knows if their agent is a Realtor®. They would have to know that
Realtor® on the business card has some meaning.

I happened to know because one of my wife's good friends is a Realtor,
and I helped her bone up for the test she had to take to get her
license.

However, if a real estate agent is employed by a broker, the broker is
likely to insist that the agent join NAR. At least in Florida, all
real estate agents have to work under a broker.

https://investfourmore.com/agents-work-under-broker/

The "fear" is actually distrust because there are so many horror
stories about "puffery" in descriptions about properties and failure
to disclose important information on the part of real estate agents.

Certain things must be disclosed, but if the next door neighbor to the
house you are considering the purchase of is the Social Chairman for
the local chapter of a motorcyle gang, and hosts montly parties, that
does not have to be disclosed. If the previous owner was murdered in
the house by the next door neighbor, that has to be disclosed. The
murder, not who did it.

The real estate agent can claim "It's a great school district" even if
it's a F-rated school. That's "puffery".

As far as the movie goes, it's a movie. The script writer determined
the basis of Aunt Josephine's fear. There's no "if" involved. All
that is involved is what is in the script and your imagination.

I happen to be a fan of Jane Lynch as an actress, and one of the
reasons I am is that she could make me fear her character in any role
she plays. She's best at being intimidating.

>> What do the Brits call this ceiling?
>> The above applies to US architects and real estate agents.

[Mark Brader]

Mark Brader:

>> You forgot "in countries where that trademark exists". Ranjit may
>> not be in one of them.

Tony Cooper:

> No, I did not forget that. The post included this line:
>
> "The above applies to US architects and real estate agents.|

Sorry, I should have read more carefully.

> The fact that the trademark is not recognized in a country does not
> mean the trademark should be used incorrectly in that country.

...

> Realtor® is not an English word.

That, I think, is a matter of opinion.
--
Mark Brader What is it about
Toronto Haiku that people find so
m...@vex.net Infatuating? --Pete Mitchell

[J. J. Lodder]

Hence the ()
Just curious, do you rate Gothic as later than Renaissance?

Jan

[Ken Blake]

Yes.


--
Ken

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 14:40:56 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

>Mark Brader:
>>> You forgot "in countries where that trademark exists". Ranjit may
>>> not be in one of them.
>
>Tony Cooper:
>> No, I did not forget that. The post included this line:
>>
>> "The above applies to US architects and real estate agents.|
>
>Sorry, I should have read more carefully.
>
>> The fact that the trademark is not recognized in a country does not
>> mean the trademark should be used incorrectly in that country.
>...
>> Realtor® is not an English word.
>
>That, I think, is a matter of opinion.

Everything is, innit?

Because it has one, and only one meaning, and that meaning is that it
is a registered trademark to indicate membership in an organization,
and was coined by that organization to so indicate, I would not
consider it to be an English word.

Note that I do not deny that it is used with the meaning "person
employed as a real estate agent" without any indicatation of that
person's membership in the NAR.

I would not normally point out that it's a trademark, that it requires
the capital "R", and requires the ® symbol. I'm realistic; I don't
expect people to observe the requirements and realize that most people
think it's a synonym for "real estate agent".

In this thread, though, the poster referred to "realtor speak" and I
thought the correction was warranted.

Just don't try to use "realtor" in Scrabble.

[Mark Brader]

Tony Cooper:

> I would not normally point out that it's a trademark, that it requires

> the capital "R", and requires the ® symbol. I'm realistic...

It does not require the symbol -- the trademark holder's heavy use of the
symbol is just their affectation to reinforce the idea that the term is
trademarked. They also like to write it in block capitals. The rest of
us, even if acknowledging the trademark, are not reqired to comply.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Beware the Calends of April also."
m...@vex.net -- Peter Neumann

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[Janet]

In article <O7WdnRJPG4dVGLP8...@giganews.com>, m...@vex.net
says...

>
> Mark Brader:
> >> You forgot "in countries where that trademark exists". Ranjit may
> >> not be in one of them.
>
> Tony Cooper:
> > No, I did not forget that. The post included this line:
> >
> > "The above applies to US architects and real estate agents.|
>
> Sorry, I should have read more carefully.
>
> > The fact that the trademark is not recognized in a country does not
> > mean the trademark should be used incorrectly in that country.
> ...
> > Realtor® is not an English word.
>
> That, I think, is a matter of opinion.

It's not the word used in UK. Nor do we call them real-estate
agents.

We call them estate agents.

Janet

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 15:19:41 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

>Tony Cooper:
>> I would not normally point out that it's a trademark, that it requires
>> the capital "R", and requires the ® symbol. I'm realistic...
>
>It does not require the symbol -- the trademark holder's heavy use of the
>symbol is just their affectation to reinforce the idea that the term is
>trademarked. They also like to write it in block capitals. The rest of
>us, even if acknowledging the trademark, are not reqired to comply.

Well, no, we are not required to write the word that way. I'm not
required to capitalize your names or even spell them correctly.

But, if I want to write your name the correct way, I should.

[J. J. Lodder]

That must be American Gothic,

Jan

[Peter T. Daniels]

Oops.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, August 31, 2021 at 5:02:22 PM UTC-4, Janet wrote:
> In article <O7WdnRJPG4dVGLP8...@giganews.com>, m...@vex.net
> says...
> > Mark Brader:

> > > Realtor® is not an English word.
> > That, I think, is a matter of opinion.
>
> It's not the word used in UK. Nor do we call them real-estate
> agents.
>
> We call them estate agents.

That sounds like "executors" (of a will).

And then there are (or were) "estate wagons."

[Ken Blake]

I was talking about the styles of architecture that were used in
European churches, but I used a wrong word.

Sorry, I said "Rennaissance" when I meant "Romanesque" (which was
actually medieval).


--
Ken

[Quinn C]

* Janet:

How do you call a person who professionally takes care of an
inheritance?

Because that's the first meaning of "estate" that comes to mind for me
without further context. The second one would be a real large property,
like a manor with acres/hectares of land attached. Certainly not a
family home or condo unit.

--
Some things are taken away from you, some you leave behind-and
some you carry with you, world without end.
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.31

[Quinn C]

* Ken Blake:

> On 8/31/2021 2:18 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> Ken Blake <k...@invalidemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/31/2021 12:49 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>> > Ken Blake <k...@invalidemail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> On 8/31/2021 1:05 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:

>>> >> > Real vaulted ceilings are the ones you see
>>> >> > in (medieval) churches.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Also Rennaissance and Gothic churches.
>>> >
>>> > Hence the ()
>>> > Just curious, do you rate Gothic as later than Renaissance?
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>
>> That must be American Gothic,

Let's go with neo-Gothic, shall we? There's plenty in Europe, too.

> I was talking about the styles of architecture that were used in
> European churches, but I used a wrong word.
>
> Sorry, I said "Rennaissance" when I meant "Romanesque" (which was
> actually medieval).

As was the original Gothic.

--
Democracy means government by the uneducated,
while aristocracy means government by the badly educated.
-- G. K. Chesterton

[Peter Moylan]

On 01/09/21 08:02, Janet wrote:
> In article <O7WdnRJPG4dVGLP8...@giganews.com>,
> m...@vex.net says...
>> Mark Brader:

>>> Realtor® is not an English word.
>>
>> That, I think, is a matter of opinion.
>
> It's not the word used in UK. Nor do we call them real-estate
> agents.
>
> We call them estate agents.

The qualified form "real estate" continues in use in Australia, because
they deal in the tangible assets of houses and land.

One's estate apparently includes both real estate and imaginary estate,
although I must admit that I'm struggling to think of examples of the
latter.

[Peter Moylan]

On 01/09/21 05:55, Tony Cooper wrote:

> Certain things must be disclosed, but if the next door neighbor to
> the house you are considering the purchase of is the Social Chairman
> for the local chapter of a motorcyle gang, and hosts montly parties,
> that does not have to be disclosed. If the previous owner was
> murdered in the house by the next door neighbor, that has to be
> disclosed. The murder, not who did it.

We moved into a house where the next door neighbour was the son of a
local car dealer, and who specialised in giving a new life to stolen
cars. It was a nuisance being woken in the middle of the night by trucks
delivering and taking away cars.

That wasn't disclosed to us, perhaps because he hadn't yet been convicted.

[Jerry Friedman]

Use your imagination!

--
Jerry Friedman

[Quinn C]

* Peter Moylan:

Money that exists only as electrons rushing through wires?

--
Trans people are scapegoated for the impossibilities of this two-box
system, but the system harms all of us. Most people have felt ashamed
of the ways we don't conform to whatever narrow idea of man or woman
has been prescribed onto our bodies -- H.P.Keenan in Slate

[Snidely]

Jerry Friedman was thinking very hard :

A stock answer. It was bond to come up.

/dps

--
Yes, I have had a cucumber soda. Why do you ask?

[Snidely]

On Tuesday, Peter Moylan exclaimed wildly:

AIUI, the estates of real and unreal are the types of property ... only
land is real, all others are not (but may be private property) ... this
includes art, silverware, and your grandfather's threshing machine.

/dps

--
"First thing in the morning, before I have coffee, I read the obits, If
I'm not in it, I'll have breakfast." -- Carl Reiner, to CBS News in
2015.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Tuesday, August 31, 2021 at 9:16:49 PM UTC-6, Snidely wrote:
> Jerry Friedman was thinking very hard :
> > On Tuesday, August 31, 2021 at 8:01:41 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >> On 01/09/21 08:02, Janet wrote:

...

> >>> We call them estate agents.

> >> The qualified form "real estate" continues in use in Australia, because
> >> they deal in the tangible assets of houses and land.
> >>
> >> One's estate apparently includes both real estate and imaginary estate,
> >> although I must admit that I'm struggling to think of examples of the
> >> latter.
> >
> > Use your imagination!
> A stock answer. It was bond to come up.

You're saying it was derivative?

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter Moylan]

It's a complex problem.

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <sgmmu1$trn$1...@dont-email.me>,

Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>One's estate apparently includes both real estate and imaginary estate,
>although I must admit that I'm struggling to think of examples of the
>latter.

Well, it would certainly include things that were made up, so long as
they were fixed in a tangible form before the decedent's demise.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wol...@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 19:16:14 -0400, Quinn C
<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Janet:
>
>> In article <O7WdnRJPG4dVGLP8...@giganews.com>, m...@vex.net
>> says...
>>>
>>> Mark Brader:
>>>>> You forgot "in countries where that trademark exists". Ranjit may
>>>>> not be in one of them.
>>>
>>> Tony Cooper:
>>>> No, I did not forget that. The post included this line:
>>>>
>>>> "The above applies to US architects and real estate agents.|
>>>
>>> Sorry, I should have read more carefully.
>>>
>>>> The fact that the trademark is not recognized in a country does not
>>>> mean the trademark should be used incorrectly in that country.
>>> ...
>>>> Realtor® is not an English word.
>>>
>>> That, I think, is a matter of opinion.
>>
>> It's not the word used in UK. Nor do we call them real-estate
>> agents.
>>
>> We call them estate agents.
>
>How do you call a person who professionally takes care of an
>inheritance?

The executor of the the estate.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/executor.asp

>
>Because that's the first meaning of "estate" that comes to mind for me
>without further context. The second one would be a real large property,
>like a manor with acres/hectares of land attached. Certainly not a
>family home or condo unit.

The "estate" is the assets and liabilities of the deceased. The
executor pays the liabilities and distributes the remaining assets to
those named in the will. If the assets are tangible property, the
executor arranges for it to be sold.

A residence - home or condo - can be part of the estate. For that
matter, a comic book collection can be part of the estate. Anything
of value is part of the estate.

If no executor was appointed by the person before his/her death, the
probate court appoints one.

The above comments apply to the US, and may or may not apply to other
countries.

[Peter Moylan]

On 01/09/21 15:35, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 19:16:14 -0400, Quinn C
> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>> How do you call a person who professionally takes care of an
>> inheritance?
>
> The executor of the the estate.

I've been an executor. It turns out that that doesn't allow you to
execute anyone.

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 04:30:33 -0000 (UTC), wol...@bimajority.org
(Garrett Wollman) wrote:

>In article <sgmmu1$trn$1...@dont-email.me>,
>Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>>One's estate apparently includes both real estate and imaginary estate,
>>although I must admit that I'm struggling to think of examples of the
>>latter.
>
>Well, it would certainly include things that were made up, so long as
>they were fixed in a tangible form before the decedent's demise.

Intellectual property is part of a decedent's estate. Future
royalties are not a tangible asset.

[bil...@shaw.ca]

Not only that, but the futures are bright.

bill

[Richard Heathfield]

On 31/08/2021 21:06, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 14:40:56 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>
>> Mark Brader:
>>>> You forgot "in countries where that trademark exists". Ranjit
>>>> may not be in one of them.
>>
>> Tony Cooper:
>>> No, I did not forget that. The post included this line:
>>>
>>> "The above applies to US architects and real estate agents.|
>>
>> Sorry, I should have read more carefully.
>>
>>> The fact that the trademark is not recognized in a country does
>>> not mean the trademark should be used incorrectly in that
>>> country.
>> ...
>>> Realtor® is not an English word.
>>
>> That, I think, is a matter of opinion.
>
> Everything is, innit?

No, I don't think so. Some things are matters of fact. It is of course
possible to hold an opinion such as "in my opinion the density of gold
is 0.6", but does that really make the density of gold a matter of
opinion? I don't think so.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2021-08-31 21:02:16 +0000, Janet said:

> In article <O7WdnRJPG4dVGLP8...@giganews.com>, m...@vex.net
> says...
>>
>> Mark Brader:
>>>> You forgot "in countries where that trademark exists". Ranjit may
>>>> not be in one of them.
>>
>> Tony Cooper:
>>> No, I did not forget that. The post included this line:
>>>
>>> "The above applies to US architects and real estate agents.|
>>
>> Sorry, I should have read more carefully.
>>
>>> The fact that the trademark is not recognized in a country does not
>>> mean the trademark should be used incorrectly in that country.
>> ...
>>> Realtor® is not an English word.
>>
>> That, I think, is a matter of opinion.
>
> It's not the word used

or understood

> in UK. Nor do we call them real-estate
> agents.
>
> We call them estate agents.

Yes

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

[J. J. Lodder]

Ah, that clears it up.
I felt you were stuck somewhere,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

> * Ken Blake:
>
> > On 8/31/2021 2:18 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >> Ken Blake <k...@invalidemail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 8/31/2021 12:49 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >>> > Ken Blake <k...@invalidemail.com> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >> On 8/31/2021 1:05 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
> >>> >> > Real vaulted ceilings are the ones you see
> >>> >> > in (medieval) churches.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Also Rennaissance and Gothic churches.
> >>> >
> >>> > Hence the ()
> >>> > Just curious, do you rate Gothic as later than Renaissance?
> >>>
> >>> Yes.
> >>
> >> That must be American Gothic,
>
> Let's go with neo-Gothic, shall we? There's plenty in Europe, too.

And neo-Romanesque, and neo-Renaissance,
and neo-whatever-can-be imitated.
And if all that was still too difficult
they fell back on Ecclecticism.

With all their technical progress
they prefered to live in the past.
The Romantic movement killed originality,

Jan

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

We've probably been here before, but for left-pondian clarification only the extremely wealthy and extremely poor live on estates.

>


--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[Janet]

In article <34cf3749-886a-421b...@googlegroups.com>,
gram...@verizon.net says...

>
> On Tuesday, August 31, 2021 at 5:02:22 PM UTC-4, Janet wrote:
> > In article <O7WdnRJPG4dVGLP8...@giganews.com>, m...@vex.net
> > says...
> > > Mark Brader:
>
> > > > Realtor® is not an English word.
> > > That, I think, is a matter of opinion.
> >
> > It's not the word used in UK. Nor do we call them real-estate
> > agents.
> >
> > We call them estate agents.
>
> That sounds like "executors" (of a will).

But isn't. Though the executor of a will does deal with the estate of
the deceased person.

Someone who didn't make a will, died intestate.

>
> And then there are (or were) "estate wagons."

and housing estates. Some of which are council estates.

Janet.

[Janet]

In article <h3ekask5...@mid.crommatograph.info>,
lispa...@crommatograph.info says...

>
> * Janet:
>
> > In article <O7WdnRJPG4dVGLP8...@giganews.com>, m...@vex.net
> > says...
> >>
> >> Mark Brader:
> >>>> You forgot "in countries where that trademark exists". Ranjit may
> >>>> not be in one of them.
> >>
> >> Tony Cooper:
> >>> No, I did not forget that. The post included this line:
> >>>
> >>> "The above applies to US architects and real estate agents.|
> >>
> >> Sorry, I should have read more carefully.
> >>
> >>> The fact that the trademark is not recognized in a country does not
> >>> mean the trademark should be used incorrectly in that country.
> >> ...
> >>> Realtor® is not an English word.
> >>
> >> That, I think, is a matter of opinion.
> >
> > It's not the word used in UK. Nor do we call them real-estate
> > agents.
> >
> > We call them estate agents.
>
> How do you call a person who professionally takes care of an
> inheritance?

The Executor of a will.


Janet

[Madhu]

* Ken Blake <ip74lt...@mid.individual.net> :
Wrote on Tue, 31 Aug 2021 09:45:48 -0700:

>
> Speaking of what you expect to find in churches, but not private
> homes. I've been in only one home that had a pipe organ. The pipes
> jutted out of the upper wall at one end of the living room, and the
> console was on the other side of the room.

Probably Not D.E.Knuth's pipe organ. The pictures are incomplete but I
think https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/organ.html
describes the console alongside the pipes

[Janet]

In article <sgmmu1$trn$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
says...

Scottish inheritance law distinguishes between moveable estate and
heritable estate. Moveable includes such things as money, shares, cars,
furniture and jewellery, heritable means land and buildings.

Inheritance is different in England and Wales.

Janet

[Janet]

In article <sgmn8o$v73$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
says...

In UK, the vendor is legally obliged to disclose any formal
dispute with the neighbour.

So if you're planning to sell your house to escape the drug
dealer/brothel next door, best grit your teeth and don't complain to
him. And don't write a letter to the local paper/your MP.

Janet

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Yes, but estate agents deal with properties that are not at the extremes.

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 07:00:44 +0100, Richard Heathfield
<r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:

>On 31/08/2021 21:06, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 14:40:56 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>>
>>> Mark Brader:
>>>>> You forgot "in countries where that trademark exists". Ranjit
>>>>> may not be in one of them.
>>>
>>> Tony Cooper:
>>>> No, I did not forget that. The post included this line:
>>>>
>>>> "The above applies to US architects and real estate agents.|
>>>
>>> Sorry, I should have read more carefully.
>>>
>>>> The fact that the trademark is not recognized in a country does
>>>> not mean the trademark should be used incorrectly in that
>>>> country.
>>> ...
>>>> Realtor® is not an English word.
>>>
>>> That, I think, is a matter of opinion.
>>
>> Everything is, innit?
>
>No, I don't think so. Some things are matters of fact. It is of course
>possible to hold an opinion such as "in my opinion the density of gold
>is 0.6", but does that really make the density of gold a matter of
>opinion? I don't think so.

An opinion may be correct factually. When you write "In my
opinion..." whatever follows is your opinion even if it is factually
correct. It's not the density of gold that is the opinion. It is
your statement that is the opinon.

[Richard Heathfield]

If the density of gold is not an opinion, and I would certainly agree
that it is not, then it is an example of something that is not an
opinion, and so the claim that everything is falls.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, August 31, 2021 at 7:15:53 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Janet:

> > In article <O7WdnRJPG4dVGLP8...@giganews.com>, m...@vex.net
> > says...
> >> Mark Brader:

> >>> Realtor® is not an English word.
> >> That, I think, is a matter of opinion.

> > It's not the word used in UK. Nor do we call them real-estate
> > agents.
> > We call them estate agents.
>

> How do you call a person who professionally takes care of an
> inheritance?

what do you call [nicht "wie heisst"]

> Because that's the first meaning of "estate" that comes to mind for me
> without further context. The second one would be a real large property,
> like a manor with acres/hectares of land attached. Certainly not a
> family home or condo unit.

I'd guess the big-property sense is prior to the deceased's-property sense.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, August 31, 2021 at 10:01:41 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 01/09/21 08:02, Janet wrote:

> > In article <O7WdnRJPG4dVGLP8...@giganews.com>,
> > m...@vex.net says...
> >> Mark Brader:

> >>> Realtor® is not an English word.
> >> That, I think, is a matter of opinion.
> > It's not the word used in UK. Nor do we call them real-estate
> > agents.
> > We call them estate agents.
>

> The qualified form "real estate" continues in use in Australia, because
> they deal in the tangible assets of houses and land.
>
> One's estate apparently includes both real estate and imaginary estate,
> although I must admit that I'm struggling to think of examples of the
> latter.

"real property and chattels"

[Peter T. Daniels]

They are, however, inherited. Susie Bright gets 1/2 the royalties
on *The World's Writing Systems*. (If you google her you might
be amused. And she looks just like him.)

[Peter T. Daniels]

That's fairly large for a house organ. He does like to blow his own horn, though.

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 07:51:09 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 12:46:00 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 04:30:33 -0000 (UTC), wol...@bimajority.org
>> (Garrett Wollman) wrote:
>> >In article <sgmmu1$trn$1...@dont-email.me>,
>> >Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>> >>One's estate apparently includes both real estate and imaginary estate,
>> >>although I must admit that I'm struggling to think of examples of the
>> >>latter.
>> >Well, it would certainly include things that were made up, so long as
>> >they were fixed in a tangible form before the decedent's demise.
>>
>> Intellectual property is part of a decedent's estate. Future
>> royalties are not a tangible asset.
>
>They are, however, inherited.

Ain't no "however" to it. They are part of the estate, as I said. The
inheritor(s) divvy up the estate including future revenue from IP.

Unless, of course, the revenues are to go to a trust as in the case of
Harper Lee. In that case, the trust administrator divvies up the
proceeds.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 11:28:30 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 07:51:09 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 12:46:00 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 04:30:33 -0000 (UTC), wol...@bimajority.org
> >> (Garrett Wollman) wrote:
> >> >In article <sgmmu1$trn$1...@dont-email.me>,
> >> >Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> >> >>One's estate apparently includes both real estate and imaginary estate,
> >> >>although I must admit that I'm struggling to think of examples of the
> >> >>latter.
> >> >Well, it would certainly include things that were made up, so long as
> >> >they were fixed in a tangible form before the decedent's demise.
> >> Intellectual property is part of a decedent's estate. Future
> >> royalties are not a tangible asset.
> >They are, however, inherited.
>
> Ain't no "however" to it. They are part of the estate, as I said. The
> inheritor(s) divvy up the estate including future revenue from IP.

"so long as they were fixed in tangible form ... not a tangible asset"

> Unless, of course, the revenues are to go to a trust as in the case of
> Harper Lee. In that case, the trust administrator divvies up the
> proceeds.

Did you enjoy Susie Bright's famous *Rolling Stone* cover photo?

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 08:47:05 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

While I certainly appreciate your suggestion to Google Susie Bright, I
did not avail myself of that opportunity. I prefer rolling stones
that gather Kate Moss photographs.

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <MPG.3b9968d2f...@news.individual.net>,

Janet <nob...@home.com> wrote:

> Scottish inheritance law distinguishes between moveable estate and
>heritable estate. Moveable includes such things as money, shares, cars,
>furniture and jewellery, heritable means land and buildings.

Pretty standard thing for Continental civil-law legal systems, innit?
French distinguishes "meuble" and "immeuble".

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Tuesday, August 31, 2021 at 7:15:53 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Janet:
>>> In article <O7WdnRJPG4dVGLP8...@giganews.com>, m...@vex.net
>>> says...
>>>> Mark Brader:
>
>>>>> Realtor® is not an English word.
>>>> That, I think, is a matter of opinion.
>>> It's not the word used in UK. Nor do we call them real-estate
>>> agents.
>>> We call them estate agents.
>>
>> How do you call a person who professionally takes care of an
>> inheritance?
>
> what do you call [nicht "wie heisst"]

Auch nicht "wie nennt man" - that's the one that's so close it
interferes.

>> Because that's the first meaning of "estate" that comes to mind for me
>> without further context. The second one would be a real large property,
>> like a manor with acres/hectares of land attached. Certainly not a
>> family home or condo unit.
>
> I'd guess the big-property sense is prior to the deceased's-property sense.

But how did the Scots get to the "any-size property" sense? Direct
shrinking or by shortening from "real estate"?

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

[Ken Blake]

I didn't even know he ever had one.

No, that's very different from the one I was describing. That looks like
a freestanding self-contained unit. The one I saw was very different; it
was built into the house, and was similar to what many old churches
have. Knuth's has two manuals. I can't remember whether the one I sayw
had two or three, but I do remember that it had a set of footpedal keys
(I don't know what they should be called)


--
Ken

[Ken Blake]

On 8/31/2021 9:35 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:

> On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 19:16:14 -0400, Quinn C
> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>>* Janet:
>>
>>> In article <O7WdnRJPG4dVGLP8...@giganews.com>, m...@vex.net
>>> says...
>>>>
>>>> Mark Brader:

>>>>>> You forgot "in countries where that trademark exists". Ranjit may
>>>>>> not be in one of them.
>>>>
>>>> Tony Cooper:
>>>>> No, I did not forget that. The post included this line:
>>>>>
>>>>> "The above applies to US architects and real estate agents.|
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, I should have read more carefully.
>>>>
>>>>> The fact that the trademark is not recognized in a country does not
>>>>> mean the trademark should be used incorrectly in that country.
>>>> ...

>>>>> Realtor® is not an English word.
>>>>
>>>> That, I think, is a matter of opinion.
>>>
>>> It's not the word used in UK. Nor do we call them real-estate
>>> agents.
>>>
>>> We call them estate agents.
>>
>>How do you call a person who professionally takes care of an
>>inheritance?
>

> The executor of the the estate.
>
> https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/executor.asp


Yes, but a minor quibble with Quinn's quesion: the word "professionally"
doesn't really belong there. I've been the executor of three estates,
but didn't act as a professional in any of them. I don't have the
appropriate skills to do that. In all three cases, I used a lawyer to
provide the professional skills and advice.




--
Ken

[Ken Blake]

On 8/31/2021 6:01 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 01/09/21 08:02, Janet wrote:

>> In article <O7WdnRJPG4dVGLP8...@giganews.com>,
>> m...@vex.net says...
>>> Mark Brader:
>

>>>> Realtor® is not an English word.
>>>
>>> That, I think, is a matter of opinion.
>>
>> It's not the word used in UK. Nor do we call them real-estate
>> agents.
>>
>> We call them estate agents.
>

> The qualified form "real estate" continues in use in Australia, because
> they deal in the tangible assets of houses and land.
>

> One's estate apparently includes both real estate and imaginary estate,
> although I must admit that I'm struggling to think of examples of the
> latter.

You can probably find many examples in literature.


--
Ken

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Den 31-08-2021 kl. 10:05 skrev J. J. Lodder:
> Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> What is a vaulted ceiling?
>> https://bungalow.com/articles/what-is-a-vaulted-ceiling
>>
>> Vaulted seems a misnomer for this kind of ceiling but common realtor
>> speak in the US. It's a sloped ceiling. What do the Brits call this ceiling?
>
> Right, just American bigspeak.

> Real vaulted ceilings are the ones you see
> in (medieval) churches.

Not many of those in the US of A, so the term has been appropriated
for a different concept.

/Anders, Denmark

[Peter T. Daniels]

Pedals.

[Quinn C]

* Ken Blake:

I knew that, but didn't put it in my post so as not to prime the person
I was aiming the question at. Tony completely missed the point. Well,
later I saw that PTD had put it out there already.

> Yes, but a minor quibble with Quinn's quesion: the word "professionally"
> doesn't really belong there. I've been the executor of three estates,
> but didn't act as a professional in any of them.

The question behind my question was whether "estate agent" could be
misunderstood as "executor". But I wouldn't expect a non-professional
executor to be called any kind of "agent". I could be wrong.

Anyway, I was certainly not trying to ask Janet: "What's an executor in
US law?" That much should've been clear. I have no quibble with thread
drift, but this really wasn't on my behalf.

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 20:05:26 -0400, Quinn C

And still don't understand your point. The question "How do you
call..." should be answered "Loudly", "On the phone", or some other
indication of "how", but I chose to think you meant "What do you
call...".

Well,
>later I saw that PTD had put it out there already.
>
>> Yes, but a minor quibble with Quinn's quesion: the word "professionally"
>> doesn't really belong there. I've been the executor of three estates,
>> but didn't act as a professional in any of them.
>
>The question behind my question was whether "estate agent" could be
>misunderstood as "executor". But I wouldn't expect a non-professional
>executor to be called any kind of "agent". I could be wrong.

Then you don't understand the legal sense of "agent". A agent is a
person who is legally empowered to act for another person or entity.
A non-professional or a professional (an attorney) who is named as
executor of an estate is the agent of the estate.

If I give someone power of attorney to sell my car when I'm out of
town, they act as my agent.

It has nothing to do with being a professional (one who is paid for
their service or trained in the practice).

>
>Anyway, I was certainly not trying to ask Janet: "What's an executor in
>US law?" That much should've been clear. I have no quibble with thread
>drift, but this really wasn't on my behalf.
--

Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

[Snidely]

Lo, on the 9/1/2021, Peter T. Daniels did proclaim ...

> On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 1:52:54 PM UTC-4, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 9/1/2021 3:32 AM, Madhu wrote:
>>> * Ken Blake <ip74lt...@mid.individual.net> :
>>> Wrote on Tue, 31 Aug 2021 09:45:48 -0700:
>
>>>> Speaking of what you expect to find in churches, but not private
>>>> homes. I've been in only one home that had a pipe organ. The pipes
>>>> jutted out of the upper wall at one end of the living room, and the
>>>> console was on the other side of the room.
>>> Probably Not D.E.Knuth's pipe organ. The pictures are incomplete but I
>>> think https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/organ.html
>>> describes the console alongside the pipes

The console shows in the one picture.

>> I didn't even know he ever had one.
>>
>> No, that's very different from the one I was describing. That looks like
>> a freestanding self-contained unit. The one I saw was very different; it
>> was built into the house, and was similar to what many old churches
>> have. Knuth's has two manuals. I can't remember whether the one I sayw
>> had two or three, but I do remember that it had a set of footpedal keys
>> (I don't know what they should be called)
>
> Pedals.

Indeed, as that page says of the third division. The pedal pedals can
be glimpsed by the northeast corner of the bench, using picture north
(top center of the frame).

/dps

--
The presence of this syntax results from the fact that SQLite is really
a Tcl extension that has escaped into the wild.
<http://www.sqlite.org/lang_expr.html>

[Adam Funk]

I'd heard of her but I wasn't aware of the connection.


--
A Discordian is Prohibited of Believing What he Reads.
_Principia Discordia_

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

She "wrote under the pseudonym Sue Daniels"

[Richard Heathfield]

"What does 'under the name' mean?" asked Christopher Robin. "It means he
had the name over the door in gold letters, and lived under it."

[Peter Moylan]

Piglet, on the other hand, lived under the name of his grandfather
Trespassers W.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Adam Funk]

Well, I'd heard of her as "Susie Bright" & "Susie Sexpert".

(Coïncidentally, "Bright" happens to be a common surname in South
Yorkshire.)


--
Dear Ann [Landers]: if there's an enormous rash of necrophilia that
happens in the next year because of this song, please let me know.
99.9% of the rest of us know it's a funny song! ---Alice Cooper

[Dingbat]

On Tuesday, August 31, 2021 at 10:15:54 PM UTC+5:30, Ken Blake wrote:
> On 8/31/2021 12:31 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > I did once meet someone who bought an ancient castle and renovated it.
> > (The renovation still had a long way to go when I met him.) That was the
> > only time I ever saw a vaulted ceiling in a private home.

> Speaking of what you expect to find in churches, but not private homes.
> I've been in only one home that had a pipe organ. The pipes jutted out
> of the upper wall at one end of the living room, and the console was on
> the other side of the room.
>

Piped music is unusual in houses:-)

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2021-09-02 12:47:32 +0000, Adam Funk said:

> On 2021-09-02, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
>> On 2021-09-02 07:54:02 +0000, Adam Funk said:
>>
>>> On 2021-09-01, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 12:46:00 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 04:30:33 -0000 (UTC), wol...@bimajority.org
>>>>> (Garrett Wollman) wrote:
>>>>>> In article <sgmmu1$trn$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> One's estate apparently includes both real estate and imaginary estate,
>>>>>>> although I must admit that I'm struggling to think of examples of the
>>>>>>> latter.
>>>>>> Well, it would certainly include things that were made up, so long as
>>>>>> they were fixed in a tangible form before the decedent's demise.
>>>>>
>>>>> Intellectual property is part of a decedent's estate. Future
>>>>> royalties are not a tangible asset.
>>>>
>>>> They are, however, inherited. Susie Bright gets 1/2 the royalties
>>>> on *The World's Writing Systems*. (If you google her you might
>>>> be amused. And she looks just like him.)
>>>
>>> I'd heard of her but I wasn't aware of the connection.
>>
>> She "wrote under the pseudonym Sue Daniels"
>
> Well, I'd heard of her as "Susie Bright" & "Susie Sexpert".
>
> (Coïncidentally, "Bright" happens to be a common surname in South
> Yorkshire.)

Yes, but I wondered if she chose her pseudonym in honour of you know who.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, September 2, 2021 at 9:00:08 AM UTC-4, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2021-09-02, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > On 2021-09-02 07:54:02 +0000, Adam Funk said:
> >> On 2021-09-01, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 12:46:00 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >>>> On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 04:30:33 -0000 (UTC), wol...@bimajority.org
> >>>> (Garrett Wollman) wrote:
> >>>>> In article <sgmmu1$trn$1...@dont-email.me>,
> >>>>> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> >>>>>> One's estate apparently includes both real estate and imaginary estate,
> >>>>>> although I must admit that I'm struggling to think of examples of the
> >>>>>> latter.
> >>>>> Well, it would certainly include things that were made up, so long as
> >>>>> they were fixed in a tangible form before the decedent's demise.
> >>>> Intellectual property is part of a decedent's estate. Future
> >>>> royalties are not a tangible asset.
> >>> They are, however, inherited. Susie Bright gets 1/2 the royalties
> >>> on *The World's Writing Systems*. (If you google her you might
> >>> be amused. And she looks just like him.)
> >> I'd heard of her but I wasn't aware of the connection.
> > She "wrote under the pseudonym Sue Daniels"

No connection. That was nearly two decades before her father
introduced himself to me.

> Well, I'd heard of her as "Susie Bright" & "Susie Sexpert".

She did a column under the latter name.

> (Coïncidentally, "Bright" happens to be a common surname in South
> Yorkshire.)

I don't know his ancestry.

The squiggler doesn't like the dieresis.

He and notorious evangelist Bill Bright ("Campus Crusade for
Christ") used the same bank in Los Angeles and sometimes
their accounts got confused.

[Peter T. Daniels]

A "scientist" who has no conception of time?

[Chrysi Cat]

I highly suspect you're looking at these and figuring out the derivative
was instead the one derived *from*.

The key is that "real" is still an adjective even in that phrase.

Whether it's "real" as in "tangible" or "real" as in "the precursor term
to 'royal'", it's likely that the word "estate" pre-existed it and
"real" was appended to it.

If the coinage _was_ "real estate" as Anglo-Norman for "royal property"
or "tangible property", that's the only way there's a shrinkage as
"estate" takes over for "property" as opposed an expansion.

--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 2 Sep 2021 19:17:20 -0600, Chrysi Cat <Chry...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>If the coinage _was_ "real estate" as Anglo-Norman for "royal property"
>or "tangible property", that's the only way there's a shrinkage as
>"estate" takes over for "property" as opposed an expansion.

There seems to be a rule in this country that any housing subdivision
that has "Estates" in the name is not a place where any residence
would, in any way, qualify as an "estate".

[Adam Funk]

I wasn't implying anything (NTTIAW Yorkshire), just throwing in
personal observations as we do here.

> The squiggler doesn't like the dieresis.
>
> He and notorious evangelist Bill Bright ("Campus Crusade for
> Christ") used the same bank in Los Angeles and sometimes
> their accounts got confused.

--
The history of the world is the history of a privileged few.
---Henry Miller

[Chrysi Cat]

On 8/30/2021 9:41 PM, Dingbat wrote:
> What is a vaulted ceiling?
> https://bungalow.com/articles/what-is-a-vaulted-ceiling
>
> Vaulted seems a misnomer for this kind of ceiling but common realtor
> speak in the US. It's a sloped ceiling. What do the Brits call this ceiling?
>

> IMHO, vaults are as described here:
> https://in.pinterest.com/pin/362962051201126027/
>
> A vaulted ceiling kit is never a kit to build a sloped ceiling;
> it is one to build what I call a vaulted ceiling:
> https://www.archwaysandceilings.com/products/cloister-vaults
>

Having finally dug all the way through this one, I'd go with either
"cathedral ceiling" (though also a realty-phrase) or "peaked ceiling".

Plenty of cathedrals haven't actual vaults that rise to one central
point, after all, especially over the nave.

Incidentally, our house has a 22-foot-or-higher cathedral/peaked ceiling
running from the point of the living room furthest from the front door,
to the front door.

In addition, a secondary line runs off it back towards the road (from
which the house is set off at almost a right angle), which means the
kitchen also has a peaked ceiling. The floodlights installed in those
are enough of a pain to replace bulbs in that we have floor lamps in the
living room just as though the house were a "normal" one with no
ceiling-based lighting. There's not a flat ceiling above any part of the
main floor of the house other than the hallway (which gets it because
it's directly under a bridge between the portions of our loft-type attic).

The _actual_ sloped ceiling that the dining room receives because of
this makes for a chandelier that we've never once been able to get
properly level, so it may be the ultimate "form over function" triumph
I've ever seen.

(Yes, the house was custom-built. No, we are _not_ the original owners,
though we do love the 10-foot level ceilings in the basement as opposed
to normal 7- or 8-foot ones, and the dumbwaiter between the garage and
the kitchen was great until it stopped working and apparently cannot be
repaired, while a replacement will likely take away either the kitchen
or the garage for an extended time).

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 3 Sep 2021 21:03:15 -0600, Chrysi Cat <Chry...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On 8/30/2021 9:41 PM, Dingbat wrote:
>
>The _actual_ sloped ceiling that the dining room receives because of
>this makes for a chandelier that we've never once been able to get
>properly level, so it may be the ultimate "form over function" triumph
>I've ever seen.

That confuses me. A chandelier hangs from the ceiling, and is usually
connected to the ceiling by a single chain. It would not need to be
leveled. The slope of the ceiling would not make any difference.

There must be something about the design of the chanelier itself that
you're not explaining.

[Chrysi Cat]

Nothing about the design of the *chandelier*, no. Perhaps the design of
the *anchor* at the ceiling, though. I'm pretty sure the chain hangs
from somewhere other than *its* lowest point, and we've _tried_ to
re-level the chandelier that it supports repeatedly.

I'd take a photo and add it, but between this being usenet and my
"camera" being an iPhone SE (which either means lower resolution than
many modern phones or just that I haven't figured out how to change
default resolution), I'm not sure if it'd be worth it.

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 3 Sep 2021 21:43:20 -0600, Chrysi Cat <Chry...@gmail.com>

wrote:

>On 9/3/2021 9:32 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Fri, 3 Sep 2021 21:03:15 -0600, Chrysi Cat <Chry...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/30/2021 9:41 PM, Dingbat wrote:
>>>
>>> The _actual_ sloped ceiling that the dining room receives because of
>>> this makes for a chandelier that we've never once been able to get
>>> properly level, so it may be the ultimate "form over function" triumph
>>> I've ever seen.
>>
>> That confuses me. A chandelier hangs from the ceiling, and is usually
>> connected to the ceiling by a single chain. It would not need to be
>> leveled. The slope of the ceiling would not make any difference.
>>
>> There must be something about the design of the chanelier itself that
>> you're not explaining.
>>
>
>Nothing about the design of the *chandelier*, no. Perhaps the design of
>the *anchor* at the ceiling, though. I'm pretty sure the chain hangs
>from somewhere other than *its* lowest point, and we've _tried_ to
>re-level the chandelier that it supports repeatedly.
>
>I'd take a photo and add it, but between this being usenet and my
>"camera" being an iPhone SE (which either means lower resolution than
>many modern phones or just that I haven't figured out how to change
>default resolution), I'm not sure if it'd be worth it.

Hmmm. Gravity should make the chandlier hang straight down regardless
of the anchor plate's position.

Have you been vaccinated? If so, perhaps you are a magnetic field and
the chandelier is being drawn to you as you walk into the room.

[Mark Brader]

Tony Cooper:

> > That confuses me. A chandelier hangs from the ceiling, and is usually
> > connected to the ceiling by a single chain. It would not need to be
> > leveled. The slope of the ceiling would not make any difference.
> >
> > There must be something about the design of the chanelier itself that
> > you're not explaining.

"Chrysi":

> Nothing about the design of the *chandelier*, no. Perhaps the design of
> the *anchor* at the ceiling, though. I'm pretty sure the chain hangs
> from somewhere other than *its* lowest point, and we've _tried_ to
> re-level the chandelier that it supports repeatedly.

If a chandelier hangs on a single chain, is supposed to be level, and
isn't, then the problem *cannot* be at the upper end of the chain.
Either the chandelier itself is unbalanced, or the chain is attached
to the wrong place on it, or something is wrong with the attachment
itself.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto, m...@vex.net
"The recent explosion of tourism has ruined the
planet Arrakis for me forever." -- Spider Robinson

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[J. J. Lodder]

Chrysi Cat <Chry...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 8/30/2021 9:41 PM, Dingbat wrote:
> > What is a vaulted ceiling?
> > https://bungalow.com/articles/what-is-a-vaulted-ceiling
> >
> > Vaulted seems a misnomer for this kind of ceiling but common realtor
> > speak in the US. It's a sloped ceiling. What do the Brits call this ceiling?
> >
> > IMHO, vaults are as described here:
> > https://in.pinterest.com/pin/362962051201126027/
> >
> > A vaulted ceiling kit is never a kit to build a sloped ceiling;
> > it is one to build what I call a vaulted ceiling:
> > https://www.archwaysandceilings.com/products/cloister-vaults
> >
>
> Having finally dug all the way through this one, I'd go with either
> "cathedral ceiling" (though also a realty-phrase) or "peaked ceiling".
>
> Plenty of cathedrals haven't actual vaults that rise to one central
> point, after all, especially over the nave.

Don't know what you are thinking of, but true vaults
depend on wedge-shape stone pressing on stone,
so they can't be flat.
Some cathedrals have wooden roofs, with the beams in sight.
This may happen naturally, beecause the order of building
is walls, roof, vaults under the roof.
Sometimes money ran out while half way. [1]

> Incidentally, our house has a 22-foot-or-higher cathedral/peaked ceiling
> running from the point of the living room furthest from the front door,
> to the front door.
>
> In addition, a secondary line runs off it back towards the road (from
> which the house is set off at almost a right angle), which means the
> kitchen also has a peaked ceiling. The floodlights installed in those
> are enough of a pain to replace bulbs in that we have floor lamps in the
> living room just as though the house were a "normal" one with no
> ceiling-based lighting. There's not a flat ceiling above any part of the
> main floor of the house other than the hallway (which gets it because
> it's directly under a bridge between the portions of our loft-type attic).

Sounds like you don't have real vaults, but instead vault-like
ceilings suspended from a roof-like structure above it.

> The _actual_ sloped ceiling that the dining room receives because of
> this makes for a chandelier that we've never once been able to get
> properly level, so it may be the ultimate "form over function" triumph
> I've ever seen.

As others have said, this is hard to understand.

Jan

[1] There is a notorious case in the Netherlands, in Utrecht.
Instead of completing the nave with vaults they spent their money
on building the highest tower in the land next to it.
The tower still stands, but the nave collapsed in a storm,
and is now an empty square.

[Peter Moylan]

On 04/09/21 20:28, J. J. Lodder wrote:

> [1] There is a notorious case in the Netherlands, in Utrecht.
> Instead of completing the nave with vaults they spent their money
> on building the highest tower in the land next to it.
> The tower still stands, but the nave collapsed in a storm,
> and is now an empty square.

Is that when Dutch broke up into a number of different dialects?

[Sam Plusnet]

On 04-Sep-21 9:53, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 04/09/21 20:28, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
>> [1] There is a notorious case in the Netherlands, in Utrecht.
>> Instead of completing the nave with vaults they spent their money
>> on building the highest tower in the land next to it.
>> The tower still stands, but the nave collapsed in a storm,
>> and is now an empty square.
>
> Is that when Dutch broke up into a number of different dialects?
>

Hmm.
How do people pronounce "Babel"?

On a Youtube video I watched recently, the US presenter pronounced it in
the same way I pronounce "babble".

--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK

[J. J. Lodder]

Right next to that tower they say Ba-bel, emphasis on Ba-,
with a long 'a', same as 'aa',
a sound that was badly degraded after crossing one or two ponds,
to such an extent that Anglos can no longer say it,

Jan

[Peter T. Daniels]

Yes, that's how it's pronounced.

What other option is there, besides saying it in Hebrew, [ba:'vEl]?

[Janet]

In article <1bbb6fb3-8dc7-4316...@googlegroups.com>,
gram...@verizon.net says...

Babel rhymes with table.

Janet

[Jerry Friedman]

On Saturday, September 4, 2021 at 3:42:16 PM UTC-6, Janet wrote:
> In article <1bbb6fb3-8dc7-4316...@googlegroups.com>,
> gram...@verizon.net says...
> >
> > On Saturday, September 4, 2021 at 3:13:47 PM UTC-4, Sam Plusnet wrote:

[that hideous strength]

> > > How do people pronounce "Babel"?
> > >
> > > On a Youtube video I watched recently, the US presenter pronounced it in
> > > the same way I pronounce "babble".
> >
> > Yes, that's how it's pronounced.
> >
> > What other option is there, besides saying it in Hebrew, [ba:'vEl]?

> Babel rhymes with table.

I've heard both versions here in the U.S. (Actually all three.)

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter Moylan]

We have a cheese here called Babybel. Babel is pronounced the same,
except for the middle syllable.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Yes

[Dingbat]

barb-illooh?

Nimrod founded a city, and he named it Babilu. Not Babel.
https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/1381/Babilu.htm

Is it different from the Akkadian Babilu?
(Sumerian Kadingirra, Akkadian Babilu, literally “gate of god”), in antiquity a city in northern
Mesopotamia on the banks of the Euphrates; the ruins of Babylon are near the modern city
of Hilla (Iraq). It was first mentioned in the legend of Sargon the Akkadian (third millennium
B.C.). Babylon’s importance grew during the time of the first Babylonian dynasty (1894-
1595 B.C.).
https://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Babilu

[J. J. Lodder]

'Babybel' is a French brand name,
and you should pronounce it French-like
for superior one-upmanship.
The name derives from the brand owners,
Le Groupe Bel.

The red paraffin coating is a rip-off,
to cash in on the international reputation
of the Dutch Edammer cheese.
(which had a red paraffin coating for export)

Jan

[Peter T. Daniels]

I was afraid that might be the answer.

There was no Great English Vowel Shift in Hebrew any more than there
was one in Latin.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 2:45:13 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:

> Nimrod founded a city, and he named it Babilu. Not Babel.

"Nimrod" is a Hebrew culture-hero ("the mighty hunter"), so why
would he be founding a city in Babylonia?

"Later extra-biblical traditions identified Nimrod as the ruler who
commissioned the construction of the Tower of Babel, which led
to his reputation as a king who was rebellious against God."

No ancient extra-biblical evidence for the name.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod

> https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/1381/Babilu.htm
>
> Is it different from the Akkadian Babilu?

Hebrew doesn't have case-endings, so it lost the -u.

[Ken Blake]

I don't pronounce it often but if I do, I also say it that way, like babble.

I think that's the usual AmE pronunciation.


--
Ken

[Chrysi Cat]

Neither, actually. There's a reason why I didn't try to defend "vaulted
ceiling" for anything not composed of quadrants-of-a-sphere meeting at a
single point.

I might even insist that they have a groin on the inside.

Instead, I was offering "cathedral ceiling" or "peaked ceiling" for an
acceptable term after we'd agreed that "vaulted" must forever be
reserved for actual vault construction.

>
>> The _actual_ sloped ceiling that the dining room receives because of
>> this makes for a chandelier that we've never once been able to get
>> properly level, so it may be the ultimate "form over function" triumph
>> I've ever seen.
>
> As others have said, this is hard to understand.
>
> Jan
>
> [1] There is a notorious case in the Netherlands, in Utrecht.
> Instead of completing the nave with vaults they spent their money
> on building the highest tower in the land next to it.
> The tower still stands, but the nave collapsed in a storm,
> and is now an empty square.
>