"Same as above" marks
John Lacey
two vertical lines to mean that something doesn't change. For
example, we might write
Make changes to foo.
" " " bar.
What are these marks called? How should they be typeset?
--
John Lacey, How can I do this? I don't know; and because I do
jo...@whale.cs.indiana.edu not know, I shall make the attempt. e e cummings
Lyle Wiedeman
when typing.
--
Lyle Wiedeman Office of Academic Computing
wied...@uci.edu Univ. Calif. Irvine
wied...@UCI.BITNET Irvine, CA 92717
(714) 856-8718 FAX (714) 725-2069
Frank R.A.J. Maloney
>I am sure we are all familiar with these marks: they are written as
>two vertical lines to mean that something doesn't change. For
>example, we might write
>
>Make changes to foo.
>" " " bar.
>
I and my dictionary (Webster's New World Dictionary of the American
Language) agree on dittos or ditto marks. We also agree on the plural
(i.e., not dittoes).
The word ditto derives from the Latin dictum, a saying, which in turns
derives from dico, dicere, to say.
Before copiers, btw, there was duplicating machine called a Ditto
machine, a trade-mark that became a generic term for similar machines.
As far as typography, we would use straight double quotation marks, if
we used dittos at all in our docs.
--
Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney
"Only the mediocre can always be at their best." -- Mencken
For an average time write uunet!microsoft!frankm
For an even more mediocre time try fra...@microsoft.com
John Raoul Dombart
>I am sure we are all familiar with these marks: they are written as
>two vertical lines to mean that something doesn't change. For
>example, we might write
>
>Make changes to foo.
>" " " bar.
>
>What are these marks called? How should they be typeset?
It's kinda off-topic (for this is alt.usage.*english*), but in
german, they're called "Gaensefuesschen", i.e. "Goosefeet".
Have a nice whatsoever,
R.D.
----
/\ muli - may unexpected love increase
/..\ Let's say that I'm a tourist of a certain kind.
/_\/_\ dom...@muli.saar.sub.org
Neal Whitman
>derives from dico, dicere, to say.
>
opposed to the prefix "haplo" meaning either "once" or "half" (I'm not
sure which." Take the pure Greek derivative "dittography," which describes
a scribal error of the type, "Paris in the the spring."
-verbum
Andrew Merritt
The OED disagrees with you. It gives 'dictum' as the root, with the word
ditto entering English from the Italian 'detto'. 'Detto' was used
in Italian exclusively to refer to a previously mentioned month, but took on
a wider meaning in English. The references given begin around 1628 with an
Italian/English dictionary, if I remember correctly from last night.
The very next entry is dittogram, which is from the Greek, so I suspect they
have considered and rejected any connection.
Andrew
N. Trafford Vaccaro
> >two vertical lines to mean that something doesn't change. For
> >example, we might write
> >
> >Make changes to foo.
> >" " " bar.
> >
>
> I and my dictionary (Webster's New World Dictionary of the American
> Language) agree on dittos or ditto marks. We also agree on the plural
> (i.e., not dittoes).
>
> The word ditto derives from the Latin dictum, a saying, which in turns
> derives from dico, dicere, to say.
>
> Before copiers, btw, there was duplicating machine called a Ditto
> machine, a trade-mark that became a generic term for similar machines.
Four questions:
1) What is the meaning of "foo" and "bar"? I see them in "C" programming
books once in a while, or from "C" programmers.
2) According to the above poster, we know where the word "ditto" comes
from. When were the " marks first used to mean continuation?
3) What happened to the ditto machines? I used to like the smell of
the test sheets when they were handed out to us. I hope there
wuzint eny long term illl efects as a result.
4) My sister and I used to get into "insulting matches". She would
eventually say, "I hate you!!!", and to show my sophistication,
I would reply, "And I, you!".
Is it "And I, you!"
or "And I...you!"
or "And I you!"
or "And I: you!"
If you don't want to answer, I'll understand (sniff).
Ethan Bradford
1) What is the meaning of "foo" and "bar"? I see them in "C" programming
books once in a while, or from "C" programmers.
"Foo" and "bar" mean nothing; they have become standard words used by
CS types to stand for another arbitrary word. They come from dividing
the (Navy, I think) acronym "fubar", which stands for "Fucked Up
Beyond All Repair" (I use "Fouled" as the first word when explaining
this to tender listeners, but accuracy is crucial on this group).
If one needs a third word, it is "baz"; I don't know where that came
from.
--
-- Ethan (eth...@u.washington.edu)
Ethan Bradford
3) What happened to the ditto machines? I used to like the smell of
the test sheets when they were handed out to us. I hope there
wuzint eny long term illl efects as a result.
I believe they fell to the greater convenience and flexibility of copy
machines, after the latter became cheap enough.
--
-- Ethan (eth...@u.washington.edu)
Peter Moylan
> 1) What is the meaning of "foo" and "bar"? I see them in "C" programming
> books once in a while, or from "C" programmers.
Perhaps this too belongs in the FAQ file; though I'm not sure that it
counts as usage.english.
FUBAR stands for "f****d up beyond all recognition".
I presume that I don't have to explain why this turns up predominantly
in books about programming in C. :-)
Peter.
Frank R.A.J. Maloney
No need to beg, just cite the dictionary or dictionaries
that support your etymology.
Webster's Ninth New Collegiate and Webster's New World
Dictionary of the American Language support the etymology I
described above. The former adds that ditto comes most
immediately from an Italian dialect word.
As for haplo-, if you had bothered to look in a dictionary
you would have found an entry similar to this one:
"hapl- or haplo- comb form [NL, from Gr., from haploos, from
ha- one (akin to homos same) + ploos, multiplied by; akin to
L -plex -fold -- more at SAME, FOLD] 1 : single : simple .
. . ."
Mark Slagle
In article <35...@novavax.UUCP>, vac...@novavax.UUCP (N. Trafford Vaccaro) writes:
> 1) What is the meaning of "foo" and "bar"? I see them in "C" programming
> books once in a while, or from "C" programmers.
Perhaps this too belongs in the FAQ file; though I'm not sure that it
counts as usage.english.
----
It is in the FAQ file ("Answers to Frequently Asked Questions"
in news.announce.newusers):
2. What is the derivation of "foo" as a filler word?
The favorite story is that it comes from "fubar" which is an
acronym for "fouled up beyond all recognition", which is supposed
to be a military term. (Various forms of this exist, "fouled"
usually being replaced by a stronger word.) "Foo" and "Bar" have
the same derivation.
--
----
Mark E. Slagle PO Box 61059
sla...@lmsc.lockheed.com Sunnyvale, CA 94088
408-756-0895 USA
Frank R.A.J. Maloney
[deletions]
>
>Four questions:
>
>1) What is the meaning of "foo" and "bar"? I see them in "C" programming
> books once in a while, or from "C" programmers.
>
According my managing editor, who edits out references in
our programming docs to foo and bar &c, fubar is Army talk for
"fucked up beyond all relief". And she doesn't want
profanity, even by reference, in the docs. If this is a folk
etymology, I wouldn't be a bit surprised; and if it is
undocumentable, so it goes. But it's gospel around here.
[deletion]
>
>4) My sister and I used to get into "insulting matches". She would
> eventually say, "I hate you!!!", and to show my sophistication,
> I would reply, "And I, you!".
>
My preference would be "And I you." But I'm far from being a
punctuation queen myself.
Jess Anderson
In article <1992Apr09....@microsoft.com>
fra...@microsoft.com (Frank R.A.J. Maloney) writes:
>According my managing editor, who edits out references in
>our programming docs to foo and bar &c, fubar is Army talk for
>"fucked up beyond all relief". And she doesn't want
>profanity, even by reference, in the docs. If this is a folk
>etymology, I wouldn't be a bit surprised; and if it is
>undocumentable, so it goes. But it's gospel around here.
Some years ago, when I was our document person, we got an
*extremely* irate letter from a faculty member who objected
to the filename "crud" in and example in one of our manuals.
Perplexed, we thumbed the pages of various dictionaries,
there to discover that this word *does* refer to shit, not
(as we all had figured) junk. Lord, it can *so* hard to
be proper!
--
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: ande...@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: ande...@yak.macc.wisc.edu Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
Mark Brader
> CS types to stand for another arbitrary word. They come from dividing
> the (Navy, I think) acronym "fubar", which stands for "Fucked Up
The last word is usually given as "recognition".
It turns out that this explains "bar", but not necessarily "foo".
Here are the relevant excerpts from the recent release 2.9.9 of
the Jargon File:
:foo: /foo/ 1. interj. Term of disgust. 2. Used very generally
as a sample name for absolutely anything, esp. programs and files
(esp. scratch files). 3. First on the standard list of
{metasyntactic variable}s used in syntax examples. See also
{bar}, {baz}, {qux}, {quux}, {corge}, {grault},
{garply}, {waldo}, {fred}, {plugh}, {xyzzy},
{thud}.
The etymology of hackish `foo' is obscure. When used in
connection with `bar' it is generally traced to the WWII-era Army
slang acronym FUBAR (`Fucked Up Beyond All Recognition'), later
bowdlerized to {foobar}. (See also {FUBAR}).
However, the use of the word `foo' itself has more complicated
antecedents, including a long history in comic strips and cartoons.
The old "Smokey Stover" comic strips by Bill Holman often
included the word `FOO', in particular on license plates of cars;
allegedly, `FOO' and `BAR' also occurred in Walt Kelly's
"Pogo" strips. In the 1938 cartoon "Daffy Doc", a very
early version of Daffy Duck holds up a sign saying "SILENCE IS
FOO!"; oddly, this seems to refer to some approving or positive
affirmative use of foo. It is even possible that hacker usage
actually springs from `FOO, Lampoons and Parody', the title of
a comic book first issued in September 1958; the byline read
`C. Crumb' but this may well have been a sort-of pseudonym for
noted weird-comix artist Robert Crumb. The title FOO was featured
in large letters on the front cover.
An old-time member reports that in the 1959 `Dictionary of the
TMRC Language', compiled at {TMRC} there was an entry that went
something like this:
FOO: The first syllable of the sacred chant phrase "FOO MANE PADME
HUM." Our first obligation is to keep the foo counters turning.
For more about the legendary foo counters, see {TMRC}. Almost
the entire staff of what became the MIT AI LAB was involved with
TMRC, and probably picked the word up there.
Very probably, hackish `foo' had no single origin and derives
through all these channels from Yiddish `feh' and/or English
`fooey'.
:foobar: n. Another common {metasyntactic variable}; see {foo}.
Hackers do *not* generally use this to mean {FUBAR} in
either the slang or jargon sense.
:bar: /bar/ n. 1. The second {metasyntactic variable}, after {foo}
and before {baz}. "Suppose we have two functions: FOO and BAR.
FOO calls BAR...." 2. Often appended to {foo} to produce
{foobar}.
:baz: /baz/ n. 1. The third {metasyntactic variable} "Suppose we
have three functions: FOO, BAR, and BAZ. FOO calls BAR, which
calls BAZ...." (See also {fum}) 2. interj. A term of mild
annoyance. In this usage the term is often drawn out for 2 or 3
seconds, producing an effect not unlike the bleating of a sheep;
/baaaaaaz/. 3. Occasionally appended to {foo} to produce
`foobaz'.
Earlier versions of this lexicon derived `baz' as a Stanford
corruption of {bar}. However, Pete Samson (compiler of the
{TMRC} lexicon) reports it was already current when he joined TMRC
in 1958. He says "It came from `Pogo'. Albert the Alligator,
when vexed or outraged, would shout `Bazz Fazz!' or `Rowrbazzle!'
The club layout was said to model the (mythical) New England
counties of Rowrfolk and Bassex (Rowrbazzle mingled with
(Norfolk/Suffolk/Middlesex/Essex)."
:TMRC: /tmerk'/ n. The Tech Model Railroad Club at MIT, one of
the wellsprings of hacker culture. The 1959 `Dictionary of
the TMRC Language' compiled by Peter Samson included several terms
which became basics of the hackish vocabulary (see esp. {foo}
and {frob}).
By 1962, TMRC's legendary layout was already a marvel of
complexity. The control system alone featured about 1200 relays.
There were {scram switch}es located at numerous places around
the room that could be pressed if something undesirable was about
to occur, such as a train going full-bore at an obstruction.
Another feature of the system was a digital clock on the dispatch
board. Normally it ran at some multiple of real time, but if
someone hit a scram switch the clock stopped and the display was
replaced with the word `FOO'.
Steven Levy, in his book `Hackers' (see the Bibliography in
{appendix C}), gives a stimulating account of those early
years. TMRC's Power and Signals group included most of the early
PDP-1 hackers and the people who later bacame the core of the MIT
AI Lab staff. Thirty years later that connection is still very
much alive, and this lexicon accordingly includes a number of
entries from a recent revision of the TMRC Dictionary.
--
Mark Brader "A facility for quotation covers the absence
SoftQuad Inc., Toronto of original thought" -- Lord Peter Wimsey
utzoo!sq!msb, m...@sq.com (Dorothy L. Sayers, "Gaudy Night")
This article is in the public domain, including the Jargon File excerpts.
Jennifer Mac vean
and flirting with everyobody here. It was not my intention. I did not
realize until too late that it had been cross-posted out of soc.bi. I hope
y'all (to borrow a Southern US-ism) don't mind too much. By the way, I
pronounce "mary" and "marry" the same, and "merry" only slightly different.
How is "marry" pronounced, if not like "mary?" Feel free to respond here or
via email. Lynne
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
telnet: jmac...@willamette.edu snailmail: 900 State Street-G254
Salem, Oregon 97301
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
G Toal
>I would like to apologize for accidentally cross-posting to alt.usage.english
>and flirting with everyobody here. It was not my intention. I did not
No problem - not *nearly* enough flirting on a.u.e ;-)
>realize until too late that it had been cross-posted out of soc.bi. I hope
>y'all (to borrow a Southern US-ism) don't mind too much. By the way, I
>pronounce "mary" and "marry" the same, and "merry" only slightly different.
>How is "marry" pronounced, if not like "mary?" Feel free to respond here or
>via email. Lynne
Hee hee - another soc.bi convert to alt.usage.english! (As you'll soon
find out, half the gang's here already).
Marry in UK English uses the vowel in Carry; Mary uses the vowel in Eight.
Of course if you don't pronounce either of those words as we do, that
info won't help :-) Makes answering questions like this difficult. We
could of course answer definitively using the International Phonetic
Alphabet (IPA) - but folks who ask questions like that are unlikely to
know the IPA anyway. I could always phone you and give you a sample ;-)
Regards
Graham