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Is it me or is everything...?

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bozo de niro

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Sep 18, 2022, 2:53:26 AM9/18/22
to
Broken? Or is it me AND also everything Broken?

I just hate updating and upgrading my Windows Vista Operating system to a Windows 10 operating system that is now almost all but obsolete and soon cannot be upgraded to a Windows 11 operating system.

Hibou

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Sep 18, 2022, 4:01:05 AM9/18/22
to
Le 18/09/2022 à 07:53, bozo de niro a écrit :
>
> Broken? Or is it me AND also everything Broken?
>
> I just hate updating and upgrading my Windows Vista Operating system to a Windows 10 operating system that is now almost all but obsolete and soon cannot be upgraded to a Windows 11 operating system.

Linux.

Ken Blake

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Sep 18, 2022, 11:48:49 AM9/18/22
to
On Sat, 17 Sep 2022 23:53:24 -0700 (PDT), bozo de niro
<bosod...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Broken? Or is it me AND also everything Broken?
>
>I just hate updating and upgrading my Windows Vista Operating system to a Windows 10 operating system


It's not possible. If you're running Vista and want to go to 10, you
have to do a clean installation, not an upgrade.

You could also upgrade from Vista to 7 and then from 7 to 10, but a
double upgrade doubles the risk of problems.


>that is now almost all but obsolete


No, it's not. Support for it will end in 2025--three years from now--
but the end of support does not mean it's obsolete or that it can no
longer be used


>and soon cannot be upgraded to a Windows 11 operating system.

No, that's not correct. However, even now, whether 10 can be upgraded
to 11 depends on what hardware you have.

Richard Heathfield

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Sep 18, 2022, 12:04:58 PM9/18/22
to
On 18/09/2022 4:48 pm, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Sep 2022 23:53:24 -0700 (PDT), bozo de niro
> <bosod...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Broken? Or is it me AND also everything Broken?
>>
>> I just hate updating and upgrading my Windows Vista Operating system to a Windows 10 operating system
>
>
> It's not possible. If you're running Vista and want to go to 10, you
> have to do a clean installation, not an upgrade.

In which case he might as well stick Linux on it.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

Ken Blake

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Sep 18, 2022, 1:58:49 PM9/18/22
to
On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 17:04:53 +0100, Richard Heathfield
<r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:

>On 18/09/2022 4:48 pm, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Sep 2022 23:53:24 -0700 (PDT), bozo de niro
>> <bosod...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Broken? Or is it me AND also everything Broken?
>>>
>>> I just hate updating and upgrading my Windows Vista Operating system to a Windows 10 operating system
>>
>>
>> It's not possible. If you're running Vista and want to go to 10, you
>> have to do a clean installation, not an upgrade.
>
>In which case he might as well stick Linux on it.

My view is very different. There's no "might as well." He should run
the operating system that he likes the best.

If you prefer Linux to Windows, that's fine with me; I have no
objection. I prefer Windows, and have no interest in Linux. That's not
because I think Windows is better than Linux; I know very little about
Linux and I don't know which is better and I don't care. I stay with
Windows basically for two reasons:

1. I've used Windows for over 30 years. I've run every version since
2.0. I know it very well (I'm running 11). I have no interest in
switching to any flavor of Linux or to a Macintosh or to anything else
because I don't want to invest the time and trouble it would take to
bring my knowledge and comfort to the same level.

2. There are many more choices of third-party software available for
Windows--much of it free. I can almost easily find what I need or
want. If I were to switch to Linux, I might be able to find
Linux-compatible versions of the same programs I currently run, or
other programs that do the same thing, but almost nothing would be
exactly the same. The result would be the need for a further
investment of time and trouble to learn what would be new to me.

Kerr-Mudd, John

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Sep 18, 2022, 2:33:10 PM9/18/22
to
It's never too late for an old dog to learn new tricks; I've stuck a linux
distro on a PC & managed to use a browser fairly quickly.

grepping with standard expressions isn't required; well I didn't and still
haven't taken that step.

Knowing about the filesystem structure & mounting drives, and then finding
a MS-style editor (Gedit) was all I needed (I think). Maybe I did have to
learn a bit of Grub, but I don't know if that's needed these day.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Ken Blake

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Sep 18, 2022, 2:42:41 PM9/18/22
to
It's not that I *can't* learn. it's that, as I said, I don't want to
take the time and trouble. My life is busy enough as it is.


>I've stuck a linux
>distro on a PC & managed to use a browser fairly quickly.

That's fine. As I said to Richard, you are welcome to use whatever
operating system you want. I won't try to convince you to use what I
use.

Richard Heathfield

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Sep 18, 2022, 2:46:58 PM9/18/22
to
On 18/09/2022 6:58 pm, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 17:04:53 +0100, Richard Heathfield
> <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 18/09/2022 4:48 pm, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On Sat, 17 Sep 2022 23:53:24 -0700 (PDT), bozo de niro
>>> <bosod...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Broken? Or is it me AND also everything Broken?
>>>>
>>>> I just hate updating and upgrading my Windows Vista Operating system to a Windows 10 operating system
>>>
>>>
>>> It's not possible. If you're running Vista and want to go to 10, you
>>> have to do a clean installation, not an upgrade.
>>
>> In which case he might as well stick Linux on it.
>
> My view is very different. There's no "might as well." He should run
> the operating system that he likes the best.

Agreed. And he clearly doesn't like Windows.

> If you prefer Linux to Windows, that's fine with me; I have no
> objection. I prefer Windows,

De gustibus non est disputandum.

Paul Carmichael

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Sep 18, 2022, 3:08:16 PM9/18/22
to
My windows 10 box just told me that it can't be "upgraded". It's about 3
years old.



--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

Ken Blake

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Sep 18, 2022, 4:03:58 PM9/18/22
to
On 18 Sep 2022 19:08:10 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com>
wrote:
It's not age. It's mostly a matter of what CPU it has.

There are workarounds, but I don't recommend using them. They might
cause problems down the road.

charles

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Sep 18, 2022, 4:21:20 PM9/18/22
to
In article <pan$f3369$b204677f$ecfa908d$d77a...@gmail.com>,
I have a much older one that can be. perhaps yours in low on memory.

> -

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Richard Heathfield

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Sep 18, 2022, 4:28:10 PM9/18/22
to
On 18/09/2022 9:13 pm, charles wrote:
> In article <pan$f3369$b204677f$ecfa908d$d77a...@gmail.com>,
> Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

>
>> My windows 10 box just told me that it can't be "upgraded". It's about 3
>> years old.
>
> I have a much older one that can be. perhaps yours in low on memory.

Let us not forget that 640KB is enough for anybody.

Sam Plusnet

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Sep 18, 2022, 4:45:35 PM9/18/22
to
I wonder what Microsoft expect Win 10 users will do when they stop
support for that version?
Do they think everyone will go out and buy new hardware - even though
their current equipment is perfectly capable?


Tony Cooper

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Sep 18, 2022, 6:22:24 PM9/18/22
to
On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 18:12:38 -0400, Tony Cooper
<tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 21:45:29 +0100, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
>
>>On 18/09/2022 20:08, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>> El Sun, 18 Sep 2022 08:48:42 -0700, Ken Blake escribi?>>
>>>>
>>>> No, that's not correct. However, even now, whether 10 can be upgraded to
>>>> 11 depends on what hardware you have.
>>>
>>> My windows 10 box just told me that it can't be "upgraded". It's about 3
>>> years old.
>>>
>>
>>I wonder what Microsoft expect Win 10 users will do when they stop
>>support for that version?
>>Do they think everyone will go out and buy new hardware - even though
>>their current equipment is perfectly capable?
>>
What does "stop support" mean in this context?

I have some apps on my computer where the source has stopped support.
The apps continue to work, but are no longer updated by the source and
the source will no longer give me advice or support via email or
phone.

As far as I know, that's the case with Forte Agent V7 which I'm using
to send this message.

If I need support, I have to go to
alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent and wait for Ralph Fox to
respond.

I also have some Adobe Photoshop versions that are long past being
supported by Adobe. Again, they would still work if I load them. They
were purchased before the current subscription program.

I keep them in case I drop out of the subscription program but still
want to Photoshop an image. They don't have some of the features as
the current version, but do have all of the basic capabilities.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Ken Blake

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Sep 18, 2022, 6:43:04 PM9/18/22
to
On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 21:45:29 +0100, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:

I don't know what Microsoft expects, but it's important that such
people understand that Microsoft's stopping support doesn't mean it
can no longer be used. It just means they will no longer provide
updates for it.

Sam Plusnet

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Sep 19, 2022, 3:06:19 PM9/19/22
to
Where those updates are:
"We've given it a refresh to make it look new and shiny."
I don't care.
When it's more a case of:
"Oops! we just been made aware of yet another security hole that can be
exploited."
I am less sanguine.

Hibou

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Sep 20, 2022, 12:55:26 AM9/20/22
to
Yes.

Linux is lighter than Windows in my experience, and thus a way of
keeping a machine going - but I agree that personal preference is the
overriding factor.

I really dislike change for change's sake, especially when I end up
losing something. I don't have a PC example in mind, but up to Android
6, I could turn wi-fi on or off with one touch; in Android 12, it takes
four. (This in the system as supplied, without installing an app.)

Paul Carmichael

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Sep 20, 2022, 3:37:39 AM9/20/22
to
El Tue, 20 Sep 2022 05:55:17 +0100, Hibou escribió:

> I really dislike change for change's sake, especially when I end up
> losing something. I don't have a PC example in mind, but up to Android
> 6, I could turn wi-fi on or off with one touch; in Android 12, it takes
> four. (This in the system as supplied, without installing an app.)

Really? On mine it's 2 touches. Pull down tool thingy and touch wifi
icon. I don't know what version it is, but it's certainly later than 6.



--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 20, 2022, 3:41:09 AM9/20/22
to
Mon, 19 Sep 2022 20:06:15 +0100: Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> scribeva:

>On 18/09/2022 23:43, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 21:45:29 +0100, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 18/09/2022 20:08, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>>> El Sun, 18 Sep 2022 08:48:42 -0700, Ken Blake escribió:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, that's not correct. However, even now, whether 10 can be upgraded to
>>>>> 11 depends on what hardware you have.
>>>>
>>>> My windows 10 box just told me that it can't be "upgraded". It's about 3
>>>> years old.

Linux Mint.

>>> I wonder what Microsoft expect Win 10 users will do when they stop
>>> support for that version?
>>> Do they think everyone will go out and buy new hardware - even though
>>> their current equipment is perfectly capable?
>>
>>
>> I don't know what Microsoft expects, but it's important that such
>> people understand that Microsoft's stopping support doesn't mean it
>> can no longer be used. It just means they will no longer provide
>> updates for it.
>
>Where those updates are:
>"We've given it a refresh to make it look new and shiny."
>I don't care.
>When it's more a case of:
>"Oops! we just been made aware of yet another security hole that can be
>exploited."
>I am less sanguine.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Hibou

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Sep 20, 2022, 4:12:13 AM9/20/22
to
Really. Pull down tool thingy, touch 'Internet', touch wi-fi on-off
switch, touch 'Done'. Four touches.

The extra step came in with Android 12. It wasn't there in 11.

occam

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Sep 20, 2022, 4:29:52 AM9/20/22
to
On 18/09/2022 20:46, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 18/09/2022 6:58 pm, Ken Blake wrote:

>
>> If you prefer Linux to Windows, that's fine with me; I have no
>> objection. I prefer Windows,
>
> De gustibus non est disputandum.
>

Yet, in the case of flavours of Linux, you have to choose between 57
distributions of Linux. (I never liked Heinz Beanz either.)

Richard Heathfield

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Sep 20, 2022, 4:37:15 AM9/20/22
to
You don't like choice. Got it.

De gustibus non est disputandum.

occam

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Sep 20, 2022, 7:31:10 AM9/20/22
to
On 20/09/2022 10:37, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 20/09/2022 9:29 am, occam wrote:
>> On 18/09/2022 20:46, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>> On 18/09/2022 6:58 pm, Ken Blake wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> If you prefer Linux to Windows, that's fine with me; I have no
>>>> objection. I prefer Windows,
>>>
>>> De gustibus non est disputandum.
>>>
>>
>> Yet, in the case of flavours of Linux, you have to choose between 57
>> distributions of Linux. (I never liked Heinz Beanz either.)
>
> You don't like choice. Got it.
>

In this case, more (choice) is less.

Richard Heathfield

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Sep 20, 2022, 8:26:27 AM9/20/22
to
Less to your taste, perhaps. Your loss, not mine.

Peter Moylan

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Sep 20, 2022, 8:38:58 AM9/20/22
to
On 19/09/22 01:48, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Sep 2022 23:53:24 -0700 (PDT), bozo de niro
> <bosod...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Broken? Or is it me AND also everything Broken?
>>
>> I just hate updating and upgrading my Windows Vista Operating
>> system to a Windows 10 operating system
>
> It's not possible. If you're running Vista and want to go to 10, you
> have to do a clean installation, not an upgrade.
>
> You could also upgrade from Vista to 7 and then from 7 to 10, but a
> double upgrade doubles the risk of problems.

My advice to Bozo would be, in any case, not to "upgrade". The Microsoft
philosophy is that software must get slower faster than hardware gets
faster. Or, to put it another way, there is an assumption behind every
new Windows release that the users are going to buy much more powerful
hardware.

The more powerful hardware is required because the new bells and
whistles are not compensated for by better-designed and more efficient
software. Instead, the faster and bigger hardware is supposed to offset
the resource-wasting software design.

I have a laptop running Windows 10. It's not my primary computer, but I
need it for a handful of programs that won't run on anything except
Windows. And it is painfully, painfully slow. I avoid shutting it down
if I can, because startup takes about ten minutes. When I bought that
computer it was really fast, but at some stage I made the mistake of
installing Windows 10 on it. That made it really slow.

Besides, Windows 10 introduced the concept of "widgets" and "apps" that
are grossly inferior to decently designed software. Mostly I avoid them,
but now and then I have to scan a document and then deal with the fact
that the result then has to be retrieved from some obscure directory
because there is no provision for me to specify where it really should go.

If I had a choice, I would upgrade that computer from Windows 10 to
Windows NT, which was the only member of the Windows family to be faster
and more efficient than its predecessor.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

bozo de niro

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Sep 20, 2022, 8:39:09 AM9/20/22
to
Re: De gustibus non est disputandum.
Thx for that, had to look it up:
The phrase is commonly rendered in English as "There is no accounting for taste (s)."

bozo de niro

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Sep 20, 2022, 9:09:49 AM9/20/22
to
Only thing worse (or shamauactured ll I say painful) than "painfully, painfully slow" is when the platform and OS come together in holy hell with a defect so intrinsic to the meld of hardware platform and software that its bastard unofficial name "Touch Freeze Jumping Cursor" really does it do it justice — you can even see it's handiwork just two line above where it buried itself in between the parentheses above and didn't have time or bother to fix it since it was an opportunity to display it as a shameless father with a son or daughter whose intrinsic nature cannot be denied and where congenital ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny in this HP-manufacured default defect from hell and its HP maker complicity refused to admit and fess up its role in the deed is shared by many like its microprocessor and touch pad and all the software pointer abstractions that must move the mouse and its pointer and on and on and on and on and on ....


Paul Carmichael

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Sep 20, 2022, 9:44:17 AM9/20/22
to
El Tue, 20 Sep 2022 09:41:05 +0200, Ruud Harmsen escribió:

> Mon, 19 Sep 2022 20:06:15 +0100: Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> scribeva:
>
>>On 18/09/2022 23:43, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 21:45:29 +0100, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 18/09/2022 20:08, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>>>> El Sun, 18 Sep 2022 08:48:42 -0700, Ken Blake escribió:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> No, that's not correct. However, even now, whether 10 can be
>>>>>> upgraded to 11 depends on what hardware you have.
>>>>>
>>>>> My windows 10 box just told me that it can't be "upgraded". It's
>>>>> about 3 years old.
>
> Linux Mint.

What about it? Did you used to be called Derek?

BTW, I'm typing this on a Linux Mint box.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

Paul Carmichael

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Sep 20, 2022, 9:50:25 AM9/20/22
to
Just checked. My Android is version 12. On A Galaxy S10e or somesuch.

It must be just you.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

Paul Carmichael

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Sep 20, 2022, 9:55:02 AM9/20/22
to
El Tue, 20 Sep 2022 22:38:51 +1000, Peter Moylan escribió:

> Besides, Windows 10 introduced the concept of "widgets" and "apps" that
> are grossly inferior to decently designed software. Mostly I avoid them,
> but now and then I have to scan a document and then deal with the fact
> that the result then has to be retrieved from some obscure directory
> because there is no provision for me to specify where it really should
> go.

They're not directories any more. They're now "folders". They're called
this because you can take them off the computer, fold them up and store
them in a filing cabinet, like in the old days. Ain't technology great?

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

Hibou

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Sep 20, 2022, 10:01:30 AM9/20/22
to
That's a large conclusion from one sample, and a disturbing one. It
means Google are deliberately making life difficult for me, and me alone.

Help!

Whatever. It doesn't alter the point, which is: change is not always
improvement, and change for change's sake is often retrograde and annoying.

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 20, 2022, 10:13:03 AM9/20/22
to
Tue, 20 Sep 2022 10:29:47 +0200: occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> scribeva:
In practice, with Debian and Ubuntu, the majority are covered.

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 20, 2022, 10:14:52 AM9/20/22
to
Tue, 20 Sep 2022 22:38:51 +1000: Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
Linux Mint. Or Bodhi is you need it small.

>Besides, Windows 10 introduced the concept of "widgets" and "apps" that
>are grossly inferior to decently designed software. Mostly I avoid them,
>but now and then I have to scan a document and then deal with the fact
>that the result then has to be retrieved from some obscure directory
>because there is no provision for me to specify where it really should go.
>
>If I had a choice, I would upgrade that computer from Windows 10 to
>Windows NT, which was the only member of the Windows family to be faster
>and more efficient than its predecessor.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

occam

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Sep 20, 2022, 10:23:21 AM9/20/22
to
On 19/09/2022 00:22, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 18:12:38 -0400, Tony Cooper
> <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 21:45:29 +0100, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 18/09/2022 20:08, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>>> El Sun, 18 Sep 2022 08:48:42 -0700, Ken Blake escribi?>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, that's not correct. However, even now, whether 10 can be upgraded to
>>>>> 11 depends on what hardware you have.
>>>>
>>>> My windows 10 box just told me that it can't be "upgraded". It's about 3
>>>> years old.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I wonder what Microsoft expect Win 10 users will do when they stop
>>> support for that version?
>>> Do they think everyone will go out and buy new hardware - even though
>>> their current equipment is perfectly capable?
>>>
> What does "stop support" mean in this context?

Security updates, mostly. No support means no security updates. (I have
been using Win7 on my laptop for the last 2 1/2 years, with no worries.)

>
> I have some apps on my computer where the source has stopped support.
> The apps continue to work, but are no longer updated by the source and
> the source will no longer give me advice or support via email or
> phone.
>
> As far as I know, that's the case with Forte Agent V7 which I'm using
> to send this message.
>
> If I need support, I have to go to
> alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent and wait for Ralph Fox to
> respond.
>

Good man, Ralph Fox.

Ken Blake

unread,
Sep 20, 2022, 11:50:22 AM9/20/22
to
On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 16:23:16 +0200, occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:

>On 19/09/2022 00:22, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 18:12:38 -0400, Tony Cooper
>> <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 21:45:29 +0100, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 18/09/2022 20:08, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>>>> El Sun, 18 Sep 2022 08:48:42 -0700, Ken Blake escribi?>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, that's not correct. However, even now, whether 10 can be upgraded to
>>>>>> 11 depends on what hardware you have.
>>>>>
>>>>> My windows 10 box just told me that it can't be "upgraded". It's about 3
>>>>> years old.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I wonder what Microsoft expect Win 10 users will do when they stop
>>>> support for that version?
>>>> Do they think everyone will go out and buy new hardware - even though
>>>> their current equipment is perfectly capable?
>>>>
>> What does "stop support" mean in this context?
>
>Security updates, mostly. No support means no security updates.


Yes, mostly no anti-virus updates. But two points:

1. As an operating system gets older, it has already undergone many
security updates, and except for new viruses and other forms of
malware, security risks are few.

2. If you continue to use an operating system that's no longer
supported, you should be safe as long as you use third-party security
software that's kept up to date.



> (I have
>been using Win7 on my laptop for the last 2 1/2 years, with no worries.)



>> I have some apps on my computer where the source has stopped support.
>> The apps continue to work, but are no longer updated by the source and
>> the source will no longer give me advice or support via email or
>> phone.
>>
>> As far as I know, that's the case with Forte Agent V7 which I'm using
>> to send this message.


Yes. I use V6 here.

>> If I need support, I have to go to
>> alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent and wait for Ralph Fox to
>> respond.
>>
>
>Good man, Ralph Fox.


Yes.

Ken Blake

unread,
Sep 20, 2022, 11:52:16 AM9/20/22
to
On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 15:01:09 +0100, Hibou <h...@b.ou> wrote:

>Whatever. It doesn't alter the point, which is: change is not always
>improvement, and change for change's sake is often retrograde and annoying.


Yes to both those statements.

Ken Blake

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Sep 20, 2022, 11:54:32 AM9/20/22
to
On 20 Sep 2022 13:44:12 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com>
wrote:
I've never used Linux Mint (nor any other flavor of Linux), but Mint
Mobile is my cell phone supplier.

Ken Blake

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Sep 20, 2022, 12:20:15 PM9/20/22
to
Windows 10 does not take ten minutes to start. If it does on your
computer, it's almost certainly because of what programs you have
autostarting.

Moreover, my personal view is that the attention many people pay to
how long it takes to boot is usually unwarranted. Assuming that the
computer's speed is otherwise satisfactory, it is not generally worth
worrying about. Most people start their computers once a day or even
less frequently. In the overall scheme of things, even a few minutes
to start up isn't very important. Personally I power on my computer
when I get up in the morning, then go get my coffee. When I come back,
it's done booting. I don't know how long it took to boot and I don't
care.


>When I bought that
>computer it was really fast, but at some stage I made the mistake of
>installing Windows 10 on it. That made it really slow.
>
>Besides, Windows 10 introduced the concept of "widgets" and "apps" that
>are grossly inferior to decently designed software. Mostly I avoid them,

I always avoid them.


>but now and then I have to scan a document and then deal with the fact
>that the result then has to be retrieved from some obscure directory
>because there is no provision for me to specify where it really should go.


I don't know what scanning software you use, but I use CanoScan, and
I've never had that problem.

By no means do I think that any version of Windows has been perfect,
nor that all its "widgets" and "apps" are better than the
alternatives. If I were in charge, I would make many changes to
improve it.

However, although I can't change Windows itself, I *can* change the
way it works and make it much more to my liking, by making
configuration changes, by using third -party utility software, and by
choosing better programs than what comes with Windows (or which
Microsoft has for sale).


>If I had a choice, I would upgrade that computer from Windows 10 to
>Windows NT, which was the only member of the Windows family to be faster
>and more efficient than its predecessor.

I've run every version of Windows starting with 2.0. I've never found
any version to be slower than its predecessor. I've also found every
version to be better (better to me) than its predecessor with only two
exceptions: Me (not better, but also not worse) and 8 (much worse, but
that's the only example of that to me).

You didn't say what Windows version you ran on your laptop before 10,
but it might possibly have been a faster version than 10. It's not
uncommon for a newer version of any kind of software to be slower,
because it has improvements, and running those improvements takes
extra time.

However, it's also possible that 10 is not really slower than what you
were running before, but that the reason it was slower on your
computer that you hadn't configured it to run at the speed it's
capable of, and also perhaps that you were running some unneeded
autostarting background programs that slowed things down.

I can't know for sure, of course, but my guess is that it's very
likely that a Windows expert could retune it to make it as fast as it
used to be.

Ken Blake

unread,
Sep 20, 2022, 12:22:29 PM9/20/22
to
On 20 Sep 2022 13:54:57 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>El Tue, 20 Sep 2022 22:38:51 +1000, Peter Moylan escribió:
>
>> Besides, Windows 10 introduced the concept of "widgets" and "apps" that
>> are grossly inferior to decently designed software. Mostly I avoid them,
>> but now and then I have to scan a document and then deal with the fact
>> that the result then has to be retrieved from some obscure directory
>> because there is no provision for me to specify where it really should
>> go.
>
>They're not directories any more. They're now "folders".

As I said here a short while ago, although they are similar,
"directory" and "folder" are *not* two names for the same thing.

musika

unread,
Sep 20, 2022, 1:28:43 PM9/20/22
to
And Kendal Mint is my cake supplier.

--
Ray
UK

Rich Ulrich

unread,
Sep 20, 2022, 1:33:41 PM9/20/22
to
On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 22:38:51 +1000, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>
>I have a laptop running Windows 10. It's not my primary computer, but I
>need it for a handful of programs that won't run on anything except
>Windows. And it is painfully, painfully slow. I avoid shutting it down
>if I can, because startup takes about ten minutes. When I bought that
>computer it was really fast, but at some stage I made the mistake of
>installing Windows 10 on it. That made it really slow.

My recently-departed laptop ran Win-10, slowly. I shut down most of
the automatic start-ups, but it still took 3 or 4 minutes to catch up
with itself (Norton checks home for updates, etc.) and become usable.
A whole bunch of disk activity. It would be especially slow when
(regularly) Windows was preparing itself for an upgrade. I would
check with Task Manager to see when disk-busy fell under 100% if
I wanted lag-free interaction.

My new laptop runs Win-11 but I made sure to have SSD storage.
Programs start in a few seconds, even Firefox with six tabs open.
The lack of delays reminds me of PC-DOS days.


It never really sleeps. Closing the lid shuts it down, sort of. Login
is by fingerprint. One thing that bothers me: If there is a physical
on-off switch, I have not found it. I /think/ there is a logical OFF
that I could request if I wanted it totally off, to save battery, but
I do not need that since I leave it permanently plugged in.

--
Rich Ulrich

Richard Heathfield

unread,
Sep 20, 2022, 1:40:34 PM9/20/22
to
On 20/09/2022 6:33 pm, Rich Ulrich wrote:
> One thing that bothers me: If there is a physical
> on-off switch, I have not found it.

What in the name of all that's holy possessed the lap-top
stylists to make the on-off switch, trackpad, and trackpad
buttons black on bloody black? Don't they ever *use* computers?

Paul Carmichael

unread,
Sep 20, 2022, 1:47:29 PM9/20/22
to
El Tue, 20 Sep 2022 09:22:23 -0700, Ken Blake escribió:

> On 20 Sep 2022 13:54:57 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>El Tue, 20 Sep 2022 22:38:51 +1000, Peter Moylan escribió:
>>
>>> Besides, Windows 10 introduced the concept of "widgets" and "apps"
>>> that are grossly inferior to decently designed software. Mostly I
>>> avoid them,
>>> but now and then I have to scan a document and then deal with the fact
>>> that the result then has to be retrieved from some obscure directory
>>> because there is no provision for me to specify where it really should
>>> go.
>>
>>They're not directories any more. They're now "folders".
>
> As I said here a short while ago, although they are similar, "directory"
> and "folder" are *not* two names for the same thing.

OK. Everything that used to be called a directory in a computer context
is now called a folder.


--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

Richard Heathfield

unread,
Sep 20, 2022, 2:38:24 PM9/20/22
to
By you, perhaps. Not by me.

Sam Plusnet

unread,
Sep 20, 2022, 4:07:23 PM9/20/22
to
On 20/09/2022 16:50, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 16:23:16 +0200, occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>
>> On 19/09/2022 00:22, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 18:12:38 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>> <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 21:45:29 +0100, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 18/09/2022 20:08, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>>>>> El Sun, 18 Sep 2022 08:48:42 -0700, Ken Blake escribi?>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, that's not correct. However, even now, whether 10 can be upgraded to
>>>>>>> 11 depends on what hardware you have.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My windows 10 box just told me that it can't be "upgraded". It's about 3
>>>>>> years old.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder what Microsoft expect Win 10 users will do when they stop
>>>>> support for that version?
>>>>> Do they think everyone will go out and buy new hardware - even though
>>>>> their current equipment is perfectly capable?
>>>>>
>>> What does "stop support" mean in this context?
>>
>> Security updates, mostly. No support means no security updates.
>
>
> Yes, mostly no anti-virus updates. But two points:
>
> 1. As an operating system gets older, it has already undergone many
> security updates, and except for new viruses and other forms of
> malware, security risks are few.

There are always new forms of attack. All those previous security
updates were just playing catch-up on the previously discovered forms of
attack.
>
> 2. If you continue to use an operating system that's no longer
> supported, you should be safe as long as you use third-party security
> software that's kept up to date.
>
If you (and many other people) continue to use an operating system which
no longer has updates, and thus any newly discovered holes are not being
plugged. You become a prime target for evil-doers everywhere.

"They've fixed that hole in Win11 - but Win10 is still wide open!"


Sam Plusnet

unread,
Sep 20, 2022, 4:12:50 PM9/20/22
to
On 20/09/2022 05:55, Hibou wrote:
> Le 19/09/2022 à 20:06, Sam Plusnet a écrit :
>> On 18/09/2022 23:43, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't know what Microsoft expects, but it's important that such
>>> people understand that Microsoft's stopping support doesn't mean it
>>> can no longer be used. It just means they will no longer provide
>>> updates for it.
>>
>> Where those updates are:
>> "We've given it a refresh to make it look new and shiny."
>> I don't care.
>> When it's more a case of:
>> "Oops! we just been made aware of yet another security hole that can
>> be exploited."
>> I am less sanguine.
>
> Yes.
>
> Linux is lighter than Windows in my experience, and thus a way of
> keeping a machine going - but I agree that personal preference is the
> overriding factor.
>
> I really dislike change for change's sake, especially when I end up
> losing something. I don't have a PC example in mind, but up to Android
> 6, I could turn wi-fi on or off with one touch; in Android 12, it takes
> four. (This in the system as supplied, without installing an app.)

My pet irritation is that every time MS do a significant update to
Win10, my Solitaire games disappear.
I and my wife liked the version supplied with (thinks back) Win7 which
was taken away in later Win versions. I reinstalled it on our machines
but for some reason it vanishes each time MS decide to ubgger everything
with a major update.

lar3ryca

unread,
Sep 20, 2022, 4:22:26 PM9/20/22
to
They are the same to me.

--
Doctor: "You have onomatopoeia"
"What is that?"
"It's exactly what it sounds like"

Ken Blake

unread,
Sep 20, 2022, 4:32:50 PM9/20/22
to
Same with Windows 11.

It's not my pet irritation. To me it's a very minor one.

>I and my wife liked the version supplied with (thinks back) Win7


Yes.


>which
>was taken away in later Win versions.

Yes. In my opinion, they were much better than the later versions.


>I reinstalled it on our machines
>but for some reason it vanishes each time MS decide to ubgger everything
>with a major update.


Yes, but it's no big deal to me. It's very easy to put back, and I
rarely use any of the games anyway--only Spider Solitaire when I'm on
the phone with somebody and get put on hold, but that's about it.

I'm downloading Windows 11 22H2 as I'm writing this, so I'll probably
find them gone and have to put them back in a little while.

Ken Blake

unread,
Sep 20, 2022, 4:33:29 PM9/20/22
to
On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 18:28:39 +0100, musika <mUs...@NOSPAMexcite.com>
wrote:
Do you get mints pie there?

Ken Blake

unread,
Sep 20, 2022, 4:35:50 PM9/20/22
to
On 20 Sep 2022 17:47:25 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>El Tue, 20 Sep 2022 09:22:23 -0700, Ken Blake escribió:
>
>> On 20 Sep 2022 13:54:57 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>El Tue, 20 Sep 2022 22:38:51 +1000, Peter Moylan escribió:
>>>
>>>> Besides, Windows 10 introduced the concept of "widgets" and "apps"
>>>> that are grossly inferior to decently designed software. Mostly I
>>>> avoid them,
>>>> but now and then I have to scan a document and then deal with the fact
>>>> that the result then has to be retrieved from some obscure directory
>>>> because there is no provision for me to specify where it really should
>>>> go.
>>>
>>>They're not directories any more. They're now "folders".
>>
>> As I said here a short while ago, although they are similar, "directory"
>> and "folder" are *not* two names for the same thing.
>
>OK. Everything that used to be called a directory in a computer context
>is now called a folder.


Yes, but everything that's called a folder is not a directory. See
https://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch001320.htm

Rich Ulrich

unread,
Sep 21, 2022, 12:22:11 AM9/21/22
to
On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 18:40:30 +0100, Richard Heathfield
<r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:

>On 20/09/2022 6:33 pm, Rich Ulrich wrote:
>> One thing that bothers me: If there is a physical
>> on-off switch, I have not found it.
>
>What in the name of all that's holy possessed the lap-top
>stylists to make the on-off switch, trackpad, and trackpad
>buttons black on bloody black? Don't they ever *use* computers?


Hear! Hear! Right, the surfaces of mine mine are all black, too.
(Today, I'm inspired to THINK about providing dabs of fingernail
polish as visual clues.)


The fingerprint reader is a 1 cm circle above the keyboard,
black on black of course. However, there IS a tiny LED just
to the left of it, and that's a help. Lenovo, if anyone wonders.

By the way, the new PC arrived with a guard made of (almost)
transparent plastic tape over the fingerprint reader. After a
couple of attempts failed to enter my print, I looked closer and
then pulled off the tape. When I looked at it from eight inches
away, I could read around the perimeter: "PLEASE REMOVE
IT" and "WHEN FIRST USE"[sic]. Okay. I pulled it off and saved it.

In the center of it is a black swirly that stylizes a fingerprint. And
which prevented the proper reading of my finger, through it.
Today, I wonder if I could have submitted it, alone, as my print, and
then put the tape permanently in place -- Could that be an
undocumented hack for avoiding any need to sign in, ever?

BTW, after weeks of experience giving a finger at home, I was
not totally surprised when their fingerprint reader worked for me
when I checked in at my doctor's office last week. FYI, what I have
learned at home is to give the reader more finger /tip/ and less
finger /pad/.

New question and answer: I look at my fingers, and the prints
do not seem as apparent as what I remember them looking. I
have to peer closely to see swirling on any finger on my left hand.
Does aging do that? - Yes. Googlehit-1 seems to understate -

"As you age, skin on your fingertips becomes less elastic and the
ridges get thicker. This doesn't change your fingerprint, but it's
harder to scan or take a print from it."

--
Rich Ulrich

Peter Moylan

unread,
Sep 21, 2022, 12:44:19 AM9/21/22
to
On 21/09/22 02:20, Ken Blake wrote:

> You didn't say what Windows version you ran on your laptop before
> 10, but it might possibly have been a faster version than 10. It's
> not uncommon for a newer version of any kind of software to be
> slower, because it has improvements, and running those improvements
> takes extra time.

No, that's not true. I also install newer versions of software on my
main computer, which runs OS/2. Very often, one of the improvements is
that the new version runs faster.

It's only in the Windows world that extra glitter is called an
"improvement". In other operating systems, programmers tend also to fix
anything that's wrong under the hood, rather than trying to mask it.

Peter Moylan

unread,
Sep 21, 2022, 12:49:54 AM9/21/22
to
On 21/09/22 00:14, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Tue, 20 Sep 2022 22:38:51 +1000: Peter Moylan
> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:

>> I have a laptop running Windows 10. It's not my primary computer,
>> but I need it for a handful of programs that won't run on anything
>> except Windows. And it is painfully, painfully slow. I avoid
>> shutting it down if I can, because startup takes about ten minutes.
>> When I bought that computer it was really fast, but at some stage I
>> made the mistake of installing Windows 10 on it. That made it
>> really slow.
>
> Linux Mint. Or Bodhi is you need it small.

Thanks, but I doubt that that would help. As I said upthread, the only
reason I have that laptop is to run a few programs that will only run on
Windows. And to run Spider Solitaire while I'm waiting for the desktop
to start up.

For my main computing needs, I already have something superior to Windows.

Richard Heathfield

unread,
Sep 21, 2022, 12:58:31 AM9/21/22
to
On 21/09/2022 5:49 am, Peter Moylan wrote:
> For my main computing needs, I already have something superior to
> Windows.

Etch-a-Sketch?

occam

unread,
Sep 21, 2022, 6:23:02 AM9/21/22
to
On 20/09/2022 22:07, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> "They've fixed that hole in Win11 - but Win10 is still wide open!"

Win 10 is still supported, so that statement cannot be true. (Perhaps
for Win 7, yes.)

You should also take into account that hackers are not interested in a
minority of people who still use, say, Win98. They go for the mass
herd, where more sheeple are to be found.

Richard Heathfield

unread,
Sep 21, 2022, 6:34:17 AM9/21/22
to
On 21/09/2022 11:22 am, occam wrote:
> On 20/09/2022 22:07, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> "They've fixed that hole in Win11 - but Win10 is still wide open!"
>
> Win 10 is still supported, so that statement cannot be true.

Why not?

Peter Moylan

unread,
Sep 21, 2022, 7:14:45 AM9/21/22
to
Yes. We've been told multiple times that part of the art of scamming is
to target the gullible. So what's a good way of detecting that someone
is gullible?

Paul Wolff

unread,
Sep 21, 2022, 7:43:21 AM9/21/22
to
On Wed, 21 Sep 2022, at 21:14:40, Peter Moylan posted:
Watching them eat street food in a seaside resort.
--
Paul

Peter Moylan

unread,
Sep 21, 2022, 8:26:25 AM9/21/22
to
A hit, a very palpable hit.

Richard Heathfield

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Sep 21, 2022, 8:32:48 AM9/21/22
to
Do you mean *apart* from Windows users?

Tony Cooper

unread,
Sep 21, 2022, 9:23:33 AM9/21/22
to
On Wed, 21 Sep 2022 00:22:03 -0400, Rich Ulrich
<rich....@comcast.net> wrote:

>On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 18:40:30 +0100, Richard Heathfield
><r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 20/09/2022 6:33 pm, Rich Ulrich wrote:
>>> One thing that bothers me: If there is a physical
>>> on-off switch, I have not found it.
>>
>>What in the name of all that's holy possessed the lap-top
>>stylists to make the on-off switch, trackpad, and trackpad
>>buttons black on bloody black? Don't they ever *use* computers?
>
>
>Hear! Hear! Right, the surfaces of mine mine are all black, too.
>(Today, I'm inspired to THINK about providing dabs of fingernail
>polish as visual clues.)
>
My HP laptop also has all-black, unlabeled, buttons. I finally
figured out which one turns off and on the laptop and attached a small
bit of blue masking tape above it.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Jerry Friedman

unread,
Sep 21, 2022, 9:33:25 AM9/21/22
to
On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 10:22:11 PM UTC-6, Rich Ulrich wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 18:40:30 +0100, Richard Heathfield
> <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
>
> >On 20/09/2022 6:33 pm, Rich Ulrich wrote:
> >> One thing that bothers me: If there is a physical
> >> on-off switch, I have not found it.
> >
> >What in the name of all that's holy possessed the lap-top
> >stylists to make the on-off switch, trackpad, and trackpad
> >buttons black on bloody black? Don't they ever *use* computers?
> Hear! Hear! Right, the surfaces of mine mine are all black, too.
> (Today, I'm inspired to THINK about providing dabs of fingernail
> polish as visual clues.)
...

Huh. The Dell laptops I've checked out from my employer are tasteful
black on black, but that doesn't cause me any problems. I don't
usually look at the keys when I type, either.

I would like the whole trackpad to be sensitive, though.

--
Jerry Friedman

Peter T. Daniels

unread,
Sep 21, 2022, 10:10:48 AM9/21/22
to
On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 7:43:21 AM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Sep 2022, at 21:14:40, Peter Moylan posted:

> >Yes. We've been told multiple times that part of the art of scamming is
> >to target the gullible. So what's a good way of detecting that someone
> >is gullible?
>
> Watching them eat street food in a seaside resort.

As I walked up the hill to the train station in Brighton, a dead
seagull fell out of the sky a few feet from me, almost landing
on people dining at a sidewalk café. Is that what you mean?

Peter T. Daniels

unread,
Sep 21, 2022, 10:12:15 AM9/21/22
to
On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 9:23:33 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:

> My HP laptop also has all-black, unlabeled, buttons. I finally
> figured out which one turns off and on the laptop and attached a small
> bit of blue masking tape above it.

Probably not a good idea to use it for turning it off ...

Quinn C

unread,
Sep 21, 2022, 1:01:38 PM9/21/22
to
* Peter Moylan:

> On 19/09/22 01:48, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Sep 2022 23:53:24 -0700 (PDT), bozo de niro
>> <bosod...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Broken? Or is it me AND also everything Broken?
>>>
>>> I just hate updating and upgrading my Windows Vista Operating
>>> system to a Windows 10 operating system
>>
>> It's not possible. If you're running Vista and want to go to 10, you
>> have to do a clean installation, not an upgrade.
>>
>> You could also upgrade from Vista to 7 and then from 7 to 10, but a
>> double upgrade doubles the risk of problems.
>
> My advice to Bozo would be, in any case, not to "upgrade". The Microsoft
> philosophy is that software must get slower faster than hardware gets
> faster. Or, to put it another way, there is an assumption behind every
> new Windows release that the users are going to buy much more powerful
> hardware.

Although there have been exceptions. When I upgraded my two machines
from Vista to 8, they got faster on the same hardware.

> Besides, Windows 10 introduced the concept of "widgets" and "apps" that
> are grossly inferior to decently designed software.

They were introduced in 8, but I rarely encounter them - occasionally
when I open an exotic sound file format, that's the only one I remember.

> I have a laptop running Windows 10. It's not my primary computer, but I
> need it for a handful of programs that won't run on anything except
> Windows. And it is painfully, painfully slow. I avoid shutting it down
> if I can, because startup takes about ten minutes. When I bought that
> computer it was really fast, but at some stage I made the mistake of
> installing Windows 10 on it. That made it really slow.

Startup is one of the things that got notably faster since version 8,
maybe even 7.

--
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against
his government.
-- Edward Abbey

Quinn C

unread,
Sep 21, 2022, 1:01:39 PM9/21/22
to
* Ruud Harmsen:

> Tue, 20 Sep 2022 10:29:47 +0200: occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> scribeva:
>
>>On 18/09/2022 20:46, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>> On 18/09/2022 6:58 pm, Ken Blake wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> If you prefer Linux to Windows, that's fine with me; I have no
>>>> objection. I prefer Windows,
>>>
>>> De gustibus non est disputandum.
>>>
>>
>>Yet, in the case of flavours of Linux, you have to choose between 57
>>distributions of Linux. (I never liked Heinz Beanz either.)
>
> In practice, with Debian and Ubuntu, the majority are covered.

Ubuntu being Debian-based, that's in a way just one major flavor.

IIRC, the other major base player used to be Slackware, but I don't
think Slackware-based distros are popular now. Fedora?

--
They're telling the truth. [...] I know what you mean. There's
another truth that they're not telling. But newspapers never
do, that's not what they're for.
-- James Baldwin, Giovanni's Room

Sam Plusnet

unread,
Sep 21, 2022, 4:03:00 PM9/21/22
to
You missed what preceded that.
The discussion was based upon what happens when support for Win10 ends,
but a large number of people see no reason to throw away some perfectly
decent hardware in order to adopt Win11.
That large user base will make it a prime target for malware etc.

Sam Plusnet

unread,
Sep 21, 2022, 4:08:43 PM9/21/22
to
We intend to go to St Ives tomorrow, and fish & chips al fresco is quite
on the cards, assuming The Balancing Eel is still in business[1]. We
always adopt defensive measures whilst doing so.

[1] Easily my favourite name for a Fish & Chip Emporium.

Sam Plusnet

unread,
Sep 21, 2022, 4:16:00 PM9/21/22
to
On 21/09/2022 14:23, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Sep 2022 00:22:03 -0400, Rich Ulrich
> <rich....@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 18:40:30 +0100, Richard Heathfield
>> <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 20/09/2022 6:33 pm, Rich Ulrich wrote:
>>>> One thing that bothers me: If there is a physical
>>>> on-off switch, I have not found it.
>>>
>>> What in the name of all that's holy possessed the lap-top
>>> stylists to make the on-off switch, trackpad, and trackpad
>>> buttons black on bloody black? Don't they ever *use* computers?
>>
>>
>> Hear! Hear! Right, the surfaces of mine mine are all black, too.
>> (Today, I'm inspired to THINK about providing dabs of fingernail
>> polish as visual clues.)
>>
> My HP laptop also has all-black, unlabeled, buttons. I finally
> figured out which one turns off and on the laptop and attached a small
> bit of blue masking tape above it.
>
This laptop (only used whilst away from home) has a black Power On/OFF
button which is carefully camouflaged - but it does have a (dim) LED in
its centre.
Of course you have to _find_ the bliddy thing first in order to get the
LED to illuminate.

Paul Wolff

unread,
Sep 21, 2022, 6:27:53 PM9/21/22
to
On Wed, 21 Sep 2022, at 21:08:38, Sam Plusnet posted:
Did I recently mention here The Codfather, in Ryde, IoW, opposite the
hovercraft terminal?
--
Paul

Paul Wolff

unread,
Sep 21, 2022, 6:27:54 PM9/21/22
to
On Wed, 21 Sep 2022, at 07:10:45, Peter T. Daniels posted:
Yuck. I wouldn't have liked that. Still, I suppose every seagull gotta
go sooner or later. When I go, I want to go calmly, and not in a flap.

But an interesting adoption of the modern 'train station' where once
'railway station' was the immutable norm.
--
Paul

Peter Moylan

unread,
Sep 21, 2022, 8:42:22 PM9/21/22
to
Had you just asked the gods for a sign?

Richard Heathfield

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Sep 21, 2022, 9:28:43 PM9/21/22
to
Along the same lines, in early 1990s Bristol: Good Cod.

Jerry Friedman

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Sep 21, 2022, 9:34:03 PM9/21/22
to
But as Noel Coward pointed out, you /cannot/ serve cod and
gammon.

--
Jerry Friedman

Peter Moylan

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Sep 22, 2022, 12:17:40 AM9/22/22
to
On 22/09/22 11:28, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 21/09/2022 11:21 pm, Paul Wolff wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Sep 2022, at 21:08:38, Sam Plusnet posted:

>>> We intend to go to St Ives tomorrow, and fish & chips al fresco
>>> is quite on the cards, assuming The Balancing Eel is still in
>>> business[1]. We always adopt defensive measures whilst doing so.
>>>
>>> [1] Easily my favourite name for a Fish & Chip Emporium.
>>>
>> Did I recently mention here The Codfather, in Ryde, IoW, opposite
>> the hovercraft terminal?
>
> Along the same lines, in early 1990s Bristol: Good Cod.

Not all cod is good. I still remember the piece of cod that passeth all
understanding.

bil...@shaw.ca

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Sep 22, 2022, 2:25:20 AM9/22/22
to
Coddamn.

bill

Athel Cornish-Bowden

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Sep 22, 2022, 2:38:20 AM9/22/22
to
A codpiece, you mean?


--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

Snidely

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Sep 22, 2022, 5:59:19 AM9/22/22
to
Peter Moylan asserted that:

> I have a laptop running Windows 10. It's not my primary computer, but I
> need it for a handful of programs that won't run on anything except
> Windows. And it is painfully, painfully slow. I avoid shutting it down
> if I can, because startup takes about ten minutes. When I bought that
> computer it was really fast, but at some stage I made the mistake of
> installing Windows 10 on it. That made it really slow.

I don't understand this. 2 minutes to boot up W10 is a long time
(although W10 does cheat a bit; some elements are still loading while
you log in). Having worked for a company providing a boot device, I
have some experience with having to worry about how long it takes.

>
> Besides, Windows 10 introduced the concept of "widgets" and "apps" that
> are grossly inferior to decently designed software.

Depending on your definition of "decently designed software".

> Mostly I avoid them,
> but now and then I have to scan a document and then deal with the fact
> that the result then has to be retrieved from some obscure directory
> because there is no provision for me to specify where it really should go.

I'm surprised by that.

> If I had a choice, I would upgrade that computer from Windows 10 to
> Windows NT, which was the only member of the Windows family to be faster
> and more efficient than its predecessor.

NT was beautiful in 2000. But it had many 0 day exploits. and I don't
really miss it. And I've had very few problems adapting to the UI
changes since then.

/dps

--
Ieri, oggi, domani

Snidely

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Sep 22, 2022, 6:08:33 AM9/22/22
to
After serious thinking Peter Moylan wrote :
> On 21/09/22 02:20, Ken Blake wrote:
>
>> You didn't say what Windows version you ran on your laptop before
>> 10, but it might possibly have been a faster version than 10. It's
>> not uncommon for a newer version of any kind of software to be
>> slower, because it has improvements, and running those improvements
>> takes extra time.
>
> No, that's not true. I also install newer versions of software on my
> main computer, which runs OS/2. Very often, one of the improvements is
> that the new version runs faster.
>
> It's only in the Windows world that extra glitter is called an
> "improvement". In other operating systems, programmers tend also to fix
> anything that's wrong under the hood, rather than trying to mask it.

Unless you've worked with what's under the hood in Windows, you are
only speaking to the changes in the UI. There's been a lot of work
under the hood to make the kernel and middleware more reliable and more
secure. Could it be better? Yes. Are they ignoring problems? No.
Is Linux better? Maybe, but Linux exploits are still a serious
problems. And there are also Macintosh exploits (some of which are
also BSD exploits). Is open source the answer? Well, maybe, when you
solve the poisoning of the supply chain.

/dps

--
Yes, I have had a cucumber soda. Why do you ask?

Snidely

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Sep 22, 2022, 6:21:48 AM9/22/22
to
Rich Ulrich speculated:
> On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 18:40:30 +0100, Richard Heathfield
> <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:

>>> On 20/09/2022 6:33 pm, Rich Ulrich wrote:
>>> One thing that bothers me: If there is a physical
>>> on-off switch, I have not found it.

The fingerprint button is the physical on-off switch. It is also the
"wakey-wakey" button.

>> What in the name of all that's holy possessed the lap-top
>> stylists to make the on-off switch, trackpad, and trackpad
>> buttons black on bloody black? Don't they ever *use* computers?
>
>
> Hear! Hear! Right, the surfaces of mine mine are all black, too.
> (Today, I'm inspired to THINK about providing dabs of fingernail
> polish as visual clues.)
>
>
> The fingerprint reader is a 1 cm circle above the keyboard,
> black on black of course. However, there IS a tiny LED just
> to the left of it, and that's a help. Lenovo, if anyone wonders.
>

My Lenovo is dark charcoal keys on a medium charcoal chassis. The only
unlabeled key is the fingerprint reader/power key. What I have trouble
with is finding the Fn key, because they've shrunk that row of keys and
then shrunk the label so they could put the pictogram on to tell you
where they've put the volume button (I use the toolbar instead).

The other mean thing they've done is not marked the boundaries of the
left-mouse and right-mouse portions of the touch pad, and my
right-clicking has suffered (not so much the left-clicking, because
tapping the center of the touchpad has much the same effect).

My two Asus laptops are black-on-black, but the older one has
relatively huge Fn keys, and neither has an unmarked button.

/dps

--
As a colleague once told me about an incoming manager,
"He does very well in a suck-up, kick-down culture."
Bill in Vancouver

Paul Wolff

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Sep 22, 2022, 8:51:01 AM9/22/22
to
On Wed, 21 Sep 2022, at 18:34:00, Jerry Friedman posted:
I always said he was a ham actor, so he should have known.
--
Paul

Ken Blake

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Sep 22, 2022, 10:37:40 AM9/22/22
to
On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 03:08:24 -0700, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>After serious thinking Peter Moylan wrote :
>> On 21/09/22 02:20, Ken Blake wrote:
>>
>>> You didn't say what Windows version you ran on your laptop before
>>> 10, but it might possibly have been a faster version than 10. It's
>>> not uncommon for a newer version of any kind of software to be
>>> slower, because it has improvements, and running those improvements
>>> takes extra time.
>>
>> No, that's not true. I also install newer versions of software on my
>> main computer, which runs OS/2. Very often, one of the improvements is
>> that the new version runs faster.
>>
>> It's only in the Windows world that extra glitter is called an
>> "improvement". In other operating systems, programmers tend also to fix
>> anything that's wrong under the hood, rather than trying to mask it.
>
>Unless you've worked with what's under the hood in Windows, you are
>only speaking to the changes in the UI.

I agree.


>There's been a lot of work
>under the hood to make the kernel and middleware more reliable and more
>secure.


I agree.

>Could it be better? Yes.

I agree.


> Are they ignoring problems? No.

I partially agree. I think they ignore *some* problems.


>Is Linux better? Maybe,


I don't know.

Ken Blake

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Sep 22, 2022, 10:44:38 AM9/22/22
to
On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 02:59:10 -0700, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Peter Moylan asserted that:
>
>> I have a laptop running Windows 10. It's not my primary computer, but I
>> need it for a handful of programs that won't run on anything except
>> Windows. And it is painfully, painfully slow. I avoid shutting it down
>> if I can, because startup takes about ten minutes. When I bought that
>> computer it was really fast, but at some stage I made the mistake of
>> installing Windows 10 on it. That made it really slow.
>
>I don't understand this. 2 minutes to boot up W10 is a long time

Longer than normal for some people, but not for everyone. How long it
takes depends on what you have loading automatically.

For example, besides background programs, I have six major
applications that I always use start automatically. I don't know
exactly how long booting takes ( don't know and I don't care), but I'm
almost sure it's more than two minutes.


>(although W10 does cheat a bit; some elements are still loading while
>you log in). Having worked for a company providing a boot device, I
>have some experience with having to worry about how long it takes.
>
>>
>> Besides, Windows 10 introduced the concept of "widgets" and "apps" that
>> are grossly inferior to decently designed software.
>
>Depending on your definition of "decently designed software".
>
>> Mostly I avoid them,
>> but now and then I have to scan a document and then deal with the fact
>> that the result then has to be retrieved from some obscure directory
>> because there is no provision for me to specify where it really should go.
>
>I'm surprised by that.


As I think I said in a prior message, he's either wrong or he's using
some strange scanning software.


>> If I had a choice, I would upgrade that computer from Windows 10 to
>> Windows NT, which was the only member of the Windows family to be faster
>> and more efficient than its predecessor.
>
>NT was beautiful in 2000. But it had many 0 day exploits. and I don't
>really miss it. And I've had very few problems adapting to the UI
>changes since then.



Nor have I, except that I hated the UI in Windows 8. I started using
Start 8 then, and kept up with it in its more recent versions. I now
run Start 11 with Windows 11..

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 22, 2022, 11:15:12 AM9/22/22
to
Really! I thought I was using an Americanism.

And if you want to be persnickety, it's a "terminal" rather than
a "station." In Manhattan, a couple of miles apart, we have
Penn Station (a train can pass through it from NJ to L.I.)
but Grand Central Terminal. "Grand Central Station," which
was the name of a long-running radio drama series about
people passing through the rail facility, is actually the name
of a post office nearby and could also be (but isn't) used for
the subway station beneath, which is just "42nd St." on the
Lexington Avenue Line.

Jerry Friedman

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Sep 22, 2022, 11:36:49 AM9/22/22
to
Note to self: Move to Britain and open a chip shop called "Cod Piece".

--
Jerry Friedman

Ken Blake

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Sep 22, 2022, 11:42:29 AM9/22/22
to
On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 07:44:32 -0700, Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 02:59:10 -0700, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Peter Moylan asserted that:
>>
>>> I have a laptop running Windows 10. It's not my primary computer, but I
>>> need it for a handful of programs that won't run on anything except
>>> Windows. And it is painfully, painfully slow. I avoid shutting it down
>>> if I can, because startup takes about ten minutes. When I bought that
>>> computer it was really fast, but at some stage I made the mistake of
>>> installing Windows 10 on it. That made it really slow.
>>
>>I don't understand this. 2 minutes to boot up W10 is a long time
>
>Longer than normal for some people, but not for everyone. How long it
>takes depends on what you have loading automatically.
>
>For example, besides background programs, I have six major
>applications that I always use start automatically. I don't know
>exactly how long booting takes ( don't know and I don't care), but I'm
>almost sure it's more than two minutes.


Since I just had to reboot a few moments ago, I dragged out my
stopwatch and took advantage of the opportunity to time it. It was
much faster than I thought: only 1 minute 13 seconds, even with the
six major applications starting.

Tony Cooper

unread,
Sep 22, 2022, 11:45:42 AM9/22/22
to
I will open a chip shop called "Cod Plaice" across the street.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Snidely

unread,
Sep 22, 2022, 12:55:15 PM9/22/22
to
On Thursday, Snidely yelped out that:
Except when you want to hold down the browser's back button to see
which of the preceding pages you want to go back to.

> My two Asus laptops are black-on-black, but the older one has relatively huge
> Fn keys, and neither has an unmarked button.
>

/dps "me, again"

--
Ieri, oggi, domani

Sam Plusnet

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Sep 22, 2022, 1:38:25 PM9/22/22
to
On 21/09/2022 23:17, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Sep 2022, at 07:10:45, Peter T. Daniels posted:
>> On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 7:43:21 AM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>> On Wed, 21 Sep 2022, at 21:14:40, Peter Moylan posted:
>>
>>> >Yes. We've been told multiple times that part of the art of scamming is
>>> >to target the gullible. So what's a good way of detecting that someone
>>> >is gullible?
>>>
>>> Watching them eat street food in a seaside resort.
>>
>> As I walked up the hill to the train station in Brighton, a dead
>> seagull fell out of the sky a few feet from me, almost landing
>> on people dining at a sidewalk café. Is that what you mean?
>
> Yuck. I wouldn't have liked that. Still, I suppose every seagull gotta
> go sooner or later. When I go, I want to go calmly, and not in a flap.
>

We are currently in Cornwall, and have seen several dead seabirds on the
beach. Those which are still identifiable seem to be gannets - which I
have never seen here before.
Herring Gulls and (lesser? greater) Black backed gulls seem to be the norm.
The National Trust (who own a lot of the coastline) have signs implying
Bird flu is the cause.


Sam Plusnet

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Sep 22, 2022, 1:41:28 PM9/22/22
to
Hmm. What would you call the railway station at Dartmouth?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcPrm5Tb-SA

The item has the title:
"The British Railway Station Where You Can Only Travel By Boat"



Jerry Friedman

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Sep 22, 2022, 2:49:56 PM9/22/22
to
Lesser Black-backed average smaller than Herring, and Greater Black-backed
are obviously bigger--almost half again as long as Lesser from beak to tail.
Also, by the time they get blackish backs, Lesser have yellow legs and Greater
have pink. If you're interested.

> The National Trust (who own a lot of the coastline) have signs implying
> Bird flu is the cause.

Whew! I was worried it might be something that could affect humans.

--
Jerry Friedman

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 22, 2022, 3:33:20 PM9/22/22
to
Oh, maybe "depot"?

I expected it was going to be something like what we had
in New York before the rail tunnel was built in 1908 -- freight
trains could come to the terminal in Jersey City or Hoboken
or Weehawken (different companies were all up and down
the coast) and roll onto a ferry and connect to tracks in
Manhattan. The Hudson is a lot wider than the Dart.

But mostly cross-country passengers had to de-train in
Jersey and get on a passenger ferry (see *Funny Girl*;
the terminal scene was filmed on location in Hoboken
and maybe saved the facility from demolition -- it got
restored rather nicely).

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcPrm5Tb-SA
>
> The item has the title:
> "The British Railway Station Where You Can Only Travel By Boat"

Early on he said that something "'s got" and the subtitle
said "has." Otherwise they were almost entirely accurate.

lar3ryca

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Sep 22, 2022, 4:48:35 PM9/22/22
to
On 2022-09-22 11:38, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 21/09/2022 23:17, Paul Wolff wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Sep 2022, at 07:10:45, Peter T. Daniels posted:
>>> On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 7:43:21 AM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 21 Sep 2022, at 21:14:40, Peter Moylan posted:
>>>
>>>> >Yes. We've been told multiple times that part of the art of
>>>> scamming is
>>>> >to target the gullible. So what's a good way of detecting that someone
>>>> >is gullible?
>>>>
>>>> Watching them eat street food in a seaside resort.
>>>
>>> As I walked up the hill to the train station in Brighton, a dead
>>> seagull fell out of the sky a few feet from me, almost landing
>>> on people dining at a sidewalk café. Is that what you mean?
>>
>> Yuck. I wouldn't have liked that. Still, I suppose every seagull gotta
>> go sooner or later. When I go, I want to go calmly, and not in a flap.
>>
>
> We are currently in Cornwall, and have seen several dead seabirds on the
> beach.  Those which are still identifiable seem to be gannets - which I
> have never seen here before.

Oooh, I don't like the Gannet. They soil their nests!

> Herring Gulls and (lesser? greater) Black backed gulls seem to be the norm.
> The National Trust (who own a lot of the coastline) have signs implying
> Bird flu is the cause.




--
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
pause and reflect.
—Mark Twain

Jerry Friedman

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Sep 22, 2022, 9:17:52 PM9/22/22
to
On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 7:33:25 AM UTC-6, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 10:22:11 PM UTC-6, Rich Ulrich wrote:
> > On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 18:40:30 +0100, Richard Heathfield
> > <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
> >
> > >On 20/09/2022 6:33 pm, Rich Ulrich wrote:
> > >> One thing that bothers me: If there is a physical
> > >> on-off switch, I have not found it.
> > >
> > >What in the name of all that's holy possessed the lap-top
> > >stylists to make the on-off switch, trackpad, and trackpad
> > >buttons black on bloody black? Don't they ever *use* computers?
> > Hear! Hear! Right, the surfaces of mine mine are all black, too.
> > (Today, I'm inspired to THINK about providing dabs of fingernail
> > polish as visual clues.)
> ...
>
> Huh. The Dell laptops I've checked out from my employer are tasteful
> black on black, but that doesn't cause me any problems.
...

So that very day I couldn't figure out how to turn on the new computer and
multimedia controller that was put into my lab. It's under a shelf in a
cabinet, and the power switch is on a smaller "desktop" box sitting on top
of bigger boxes, somewhat set back. All black on black.

--
Jerry Friedman

Rich Ulrich

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Sep 23, 2022, 2:05:49 AM9/23/22
to
On Wed, 21 Sep 2022 09:23:27 -0400, Tony Cooper
<tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 21 Sep 2022 00:22:03 -0400, Rich Ulrich
><rich....@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 18:40:30 +0100, Richard Heathfield
>><r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>On 20/09/2022 6:33 pm, Rich Ulrich wrote:
>>>> One thing that bothers me: If there is a physical
>>>> on-off switch, I have not found it.
>>>
>>>What in the name of all that's holy possessed the lap-top
>>>stylists to make the on-off switch, trackpad, and trackpad
>>>buttons black on bloody black? Don't they ever *use* computers?
>>
>>
>>Hear! Hear! Right, the surfaces of mine mine are all black, too.
>>(Today, I'm inspired to THINK about providing dabs of fingernail
>>polish as visual clues.)
>>
>My HP laptop also has all-black, unlabeled, buttons. I finally
>figured out which one turns off and on the laptop and attached a small
>bit of blue masking tape above it.

So far, I've clipped a couple of small bits from the sticky section
of a Post-it note. That's easier for trying variations than the
fingernail polish I had thought of.

The small rectangle I put above the fingerprint reader helps my
aim at startup times. The one I put below the lower left corner
of the trackpad may be helpful, but less so.

--
Rich Ulrich

Sam Plusnet

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Sep 23, 2022, 4:49:49 PM9/23/22
to
On 22/09/2022 19:49, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 11:38:25 AM UTC-6, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> On 21/09/2022 23:17, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>> On Wed, 21 Sep 2022, at 07:10:45, Peter T. Daniels posted:
>>>> On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 7:43:21 AM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 21 Sep 2022, at 21:14:40, Peter Moylan posted:
>>>>
>>>>>> Yes. We've been told multiple times that part of the art of scamming is
>>>>>> to target the gullible. So what's a good way of detecting that someone
>>>>>> is gullible?
>>>>>
>>>>> Watching them eat street food in a seaside resort.
>>>>
>>>> As I walked up the hill to the train station in Brighton, a dead
>>>> seagull fell out of the sky a few feet from me, almost landing
>>>> on people dining at a sidewalk café. Is that what you mean?
>>>
>>> Yuck. I wouldn't have liked that. Still, I suppose every seagull gotta
>>> go sooner or later. When I go, I want to go calmly, and not in a flap.
>>>
>> We are currently in Cornwall, and have seen several dead seabirds on the
>> beach. Those which are still identifiable seem to be gannets - which I
>> have never seen here before.
>
>> Herring Gulls and (lesser? greater) Black backed gulls seem to be the norm.
>
> Lesser Black-backed average smaller than Herring, and Greater Black-backed
> are obviously bigger--almost half again as long as Lesser from beak to tail.
> Also, by the time they get blackish backs, Lesser have yellow legs and Greater
> have pink. If you're interested.

I usually only see the Black Backed gulls in the air - where scale is
much harder to judge. The Herring Gulls are all too close up and personal.

Oh! I forgot the Black Headed Gulls - albeit in their winter plumage
now, but I only see those on the saltings.
>
>> The National Trust (who own a lot of the coastline) have signs implying
>> Bird flu is the cause.
>
> Whew! I was worried it might be something that could affect humans.
>

It can, apparently, but it's rare. In matters Ecological and
Economical... much less rare.


Sam Plusnet

unread,
Sep 23, 2022, 4:53:52 PM9/23/22
to
Were the designers influenced by a scene in the Hitchhiker's Guide to
the Galaxy - or was the author of HHGTTG influenced by computer hardware?

Jerry Friedman

unread,
Sep 24, 2022, 10:30:41 AM9/24/22
to
On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 2:49:49 PM UTC-6, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 22/09/2022 19:49, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 11:38:25 AM UTC-6, Sam Plusnet wrote:

[Cornish beaches]

> >> Herring Gulls and (lesser? greater) Black backed gulls seem to be the norm.
> >
> > Lesser Black-backed average smaller than Herring, and Greater Black-backed
> > are obviously bigger--almost half again as long as Lesser from beak to tail.
> > Also, by the time they get blackish backs, Lesser have yellow legs and Greater
> > have pink. If you're interested.

> I usually only see the Black Backed gulls in the air - where scale is
> much harder to judge. The Herring Gulls are all too close up and personal.

I didn't know the Black-backed ones didn't get as personal.

> Oh! I forgot the Black Headed Gulls - albeit in their winter plumage
> now, but I only see those on the saltings.
...

Had to look up "saltings". AmE "tidal flats"?

--
Jerry Friedman

Sam Plusnet

unread,
Sep 24, 2022, 1:48:39 PM9/24/22
to
On 24/09/2022 15:30, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 2:49:49 PM UTC-6, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> On 22/09/2022 19:49, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 11:38:25 AM UTC-6, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>
> [Cornish beaches]
>
>>>> Herring Gulls and (lesser? greater) Black backed gulls seem to be the norm.
>>>
>>> Lesser Black-backed average smaller than Herring, and Greater Black-backed
>>> are obviously bigger--almost half again as long as Lesser from beak to tail.
>>> Also, by the time they get blackish backs, Lesser have yellow legs and Greater
>>> have pink. If you're interested.
>
>> I usually only see the Black Backed gulls in the air - where scale is
>> much harder to judge. The Herring Gulls are all too close up and personal.
>
> I didn't know the Black-backed ones didn't get as personal.

Here, if you are surrounded by gulls keen to share your food (or
anything which looks roughly edible), they will almost certainly Herring
Gulls.
>
>> Oh! I forgot the Black Headed Gulls - albeit in their winter plumage
>> now, but I only see those on the saltings.
> ...
>
> Had to look up "saltings". AmE "tidal flats"?
>
Yes. We're in Hayle (Cornwall) which has extensive areas of 'tidal
flats' that support a range of birdlife.

bil...@shaw.ca

unread,
Sep 24, 2022, 8:51:24 PM9/24/22
to
The estuary of the Fraser River, just south of Vancouver, gets huge flocks
of migratory birds, notably snow geese, in season. They are a grand sight,
especially when something spooks the flock and all of them alight at the
same time. There are several wooden observation platforms that allow
viewing without getting close enough to disturb the birds.

bill
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