Sailor suits and the Navy
Per Rønne
enlisted men in the Navy called.
I was told that "sailor suits" were for children only and that the adult
seamen's uniform was called a "jumper" or the like.
But now I see this on wikipedia:
=
A sailor suit is a uniform traditionally worn by enlisted seamen in the
navy, and other government funded sea services. It later developed in to
a popular clothing style for children.
=
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailor_suit>
In German the term used is "Matrosenanzug", in Danish "matrostøj", in
French "costume marin" and in Spanish "traje de marinero". And in at
least German and Danish I know that the same term is used for both the
children's garment and for the uniform used in the Navy.
And of course, the clothes is usually no longer used by children. Though
Prince Christian of Denmark [Crown Prince Frederik's oldest child and
heir] was recently seen in a down-sized white sailor suit uniform as
used by the Danish Royal Navy in the tropics. At his 4-year birthday.
But of course, the Royal Family can have such uniforms sewed by the
usual manufacturer af military uniforms.
--
Per Erik Rønne
http://www.RQNNE.dk
Errare humanum est, sed in errore perseverare turpe
bob
> I have asked this question before. What are the uniforms worn by
> enlisted men in the Navy called.
I have certainly heard the terms "square rig" and "fore-and-aft rig"
for the formal uniforms worn by ratings (enlisted men) and officers
(both petty officers and comissioned officers) in the Royal Navy. The
square collar of the ratings uniform and the fore-and-aft cocked hat
formerly worn by officers suggests an origin for these terms. I'm not
sure either how widespread these terms are or whether they are
officially recognised. For those not in the know, "square rig" is the
way of setting square sails on masts of traditional sailing ships,
while "fore and aft rig" is the way triangular sails are set. In the
absence of wind, the "rest" position of square sails is across the
ship (square on to the fore-and-aft line) and fore-and-aft sails are
(unsurprisingly) in line with the ship.
Robin
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
>I have asked this question before. What are the uniforms worn by
>enlisted men in the Navy called.
>
>I was told that "sailor suits" were for children only and that the adult
>seamen's uniform was called a "jumper" or the like.
>
The OED says:
sailor suit n. a suit similar to that of an ordinary seaman, worn
mainly by small boys.
I have never met the phrase "sailor suit" to mean the uniform worn by an
actual sailor.
In the (British) Royal Navy uniforms seem to be called "rigs".
(In the RN the ranks are divided into "officers" and "ratings".)
Extracts:
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/training-and-people/rn-life/uniforms-and-badges-of-rank/the-history-of-rating-uniforms/index.htm
or
http://tinyurl.com/35sesw9
The History of Rating Uniforms
-> A uniform rig for ratings was first set down by the Admiralty as
recently as 1857.
This did not differentiate between senior and junior ratings except
in the badges worn on the left sleeve since all those dressed as
-> seamen were to wear square rig. 'Idlers', defined as those incapable
of manning the guns, masts and yards to fight the ship, were not
-> deemed worthy of square rig and were dressed in a rudimentary form
-> of fore and aft rig.
Bell bottomed trousers were another 'icon' of the square rig
uniform.
Jackets
Since 1859 the sailor's uniform has undergone a number of changes,
perhaps the most surprising being the removal of the blue jacket,
which had given rise to the nickname 'bluejacket' for a sailor, in
1890. At the same time the 'frock', which used to be tucked into the
trousers, gave way to the 'jumper' which was not. CPOs and
-> first-class POs moved into fore and aft rig from 1859 onwards. In
1956 it was decided that all ratings other than artificer
apprentices and Locally Entered Personnel (LEP) should be dressed as
-> seamen and their rig was changed accordingly. In 1995/95, trials
-> with a female version of the square rig uniform proved extremely
successful and in 1996 all female junior ratings changed into the
-> new rig. By the end of 1997 the last LEP's will go and new square
-> rig will be introduced to all artificer and technician apprentices.
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/training-and-people/rn-life/uniforms-and-badges-of-rank/the-history-of-officer-uniforms/index.htm
or
http://tinyurl.com/32zy2k9
The History of Officer Uniforms
-> ...In 1767 the working rig was adopted as the best uniform ...
The option of wearing white trousers with uniform in the UK was
generally discontinued in 1856 although the practice continued in
training establishments and on overseas Stations such as the West
-> Indies and China (where it was known as the Wei-Wei Rig) until 1939.
>But now I see this on wikipedia:
>
>=
>A sailor suit is a uniform traditionally worn by enlisted seamen in the
>navy, and other government funded sea services. It later developed in to
>a popular clothing style for children.
>=
>
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailor_suit>
>
>In German the term used is "Matrosenanzug", in Danish "matrostøj", in
>French "costume marin" and in Spanish "traje de marinero". And in at
>least German and Danish I know that the same term is used for both the
>children's garment and for the uniform used in the Navy.
>
>And of course, the clothes is usually no longer used by children. Though
>Prince Christian of Denmark [Crown Prince Frederik's oldest child and
>heir] was recently seen in a down-sized white sailor suit uniform as
>used by the Danish Royal Navy in the tropics. At his 4-year birthday.
>But of course, the Royal Family can have such uniforms sewed by the
>usual manufacturer af military uniforms.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Don Phillipson
news:1jty12v.cnwuf9104dcmjN%p...@RQNNE.invalid...
>I have asked this question before. What are the uniforms worn by
> enlisted men in the Navy called.
>
> I was told that "sailor suits" were for children only and that the adult
> seamen's uniform was called a "jumper" or the like.
>
> But now I see this on wikipedia:
>
> =
> A sailor suit is a uniform traditionally worn by enlisted seamen in the
> navy, and other government funded sea services. It later developed in to
> a popular clothing style for children.
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailor_suit>
Traditional British vernacular was "bell bottoms," because of the
wide trousers worn by RN seamen (as well as the open-necked
jumper, pillbox-style headdress.) The general difference was that
officers and petty officers wore SD caps, jackets and standard
trousers with collars and ties, while lower ranks wore bell bottoms.
(A few types of seaman e.g. "writers" (clerks) also wore jacket-and-
trousers uniform because of their trade status. George Melly, in the
RN 1946-47, records in his 1977 memoir Rum, Bum and Concertina
his pleasure at being reassigned and going back into bell bottoms,
as he described the ordinary seaman's rig.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Joe Fineman
> The OED says:
>
> sailor suit n. a suit similar to that of an ordinary seaman,
> worn mainly by small boys.
>
> I have never met the phrase "sailor suit" to mean the uniform worn
> by an actual sailor.
I am just old enough (b. 1937) to remember US usage during W.W. II.
"Sailor suit" was certainly the name for what I wore, but I doubt if I
would have applied it to an actual grownup uniform. There was, it is
true, and insipid bowdlerized version of the song "Bell-Bottom
Trousers" on the radio, containing the lines
Now he's on a battleship in his sailor suit,
Just a great big sailor-man, but he's just as cute.
-- but that, being deliberately chidish, is perhaps the exception that
proves the rule.
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net
||: How can you have that many reflections and still not see the :||
||: camera? :||