chicken(-)fried steak

[Yurui Liu]

Hi,

Does anyone know why the adjective in "chicken-fried steak" is
hyphenated by some people but not by others? Is the hyphen-less
version a redneck-style spelling?

I'd appreciate your help.

[Hibou]

Such hyphens avoid a momentary ambiguity, and in general people use too
few of them. The difference between those who use them and those who
don't, I should say, is that between those who think about words as they
write them and those whose English is prefabricated phrases.

There may be a correlation with redneckedness, but the ruddy-skinned are
far from having a monopoly.

[Ken Blake]

On 11/28/2020 2:01 AM, Hibou wrote:
> Le 28/11/2020 à 06:56, Yurui Liu a écrit :
>> Hi,
>>
>> Does anyone know why the adjective in "chicken-fried steak" is
>> hyphenated by some people but not by others? Is the hyphen-less
>> version a redneck-style spelling?
>>
>> I'd appreciate your help.
>
> Such hyphens avoid a momentary ambiguity, and in general people use too
> few of them.

I agree with both those statements.


--
Ken

[Tony Cooper]

Changing the subject a bit...I would be interested in what you think a
"redneck" is.
--

Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

[Jerry Friedman]

Not speaking for YRL, but it's an offensive term for a country person.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter T. Daniels]

Or, if you're Jeff Foxworthy, an affectionate term. His catchphrase is
"If you ..., then you might be a redneck."

Once on *Are You Smarter than a Fifth-Grader?* he said to a contestant
after some particularly exuberant reaction, "There's no 'might' about it.
You _are_ a redneck." (Oh, I remember. He asked him what he would do
if he won the million dollars. He said he'd buy a Lamborghini. Painted
in camo[uflage] pattern.)

[Jerry Friedman]

So do I.

In general, hyphens aren't very popular.

Without data, I'd guess the majority of Americans don't know the supposed
standard rules for hyphens. Thus unneeded hyphens often appear: "it changes
from day-to-day," "She's eleven-years-old." After all, not all the standard rules
are all that standard. I think some teachers may teach that hyphens are
completely optional. I think some people who do understand the more
common rules, or have understood them at some point, think that following
them looks fussy or pedantic. I think some people are really too busy to spend
any time thinking about hyphens and some want to look that busy.

I once saw an article that said a study had shown that hyphens slow down
reading except for the ones that improve clarity. Unfortunately it didn't say
which ones those are. If I remember correctly.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 8:27:34 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 10:20:26 AM UTC-5, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 8:15:24 AM UTC-7, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
> > > Changing the subject a bit...I would be interested in what you think a
> > > "redneck" is.
> >
> > Not speaking for YRL, but it's an offensive term for a country person.
> Or, if you're Jeff Foxworthy, an affectionate term. His catchphrase is
> "If you ..., then you might be a redneck."

Yes, if you're Jeff Foxworthy, but his Georgia accent helps him get away with
it, and I think he gets away with more than he should, notably on the incest
jokes.

The only one of his lines I've seen that I like is "If you think the stock market
has a fence around it."

> Once on *Are You Smarter than a Fifth-Grader?* he said to a contestant
> after some particularly exuberant reaction, "There's no 'might' about it.
> You _are_ a redneck." (Oh, I remember. He asked him what he would do
> if he won the million dollars. He said he'd buy a Lamborghini. Painted
> in camo[uflage] pattern.)

I wonder whether that was scripted. (I don't expect you to know.)

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter T. Daniels]

The contestants who don't go very far in the 10-question quiz probably
couldn't learn to ad-lib [note hyphen] such lines ... plus, game shows
are scrupulous about not permitting contact between host and contestants
thanks to certain unpleasantnesses in past decades.

Hm. It only ran for two seasons; I was surprised when the Laff Network
went back to Season 1 at the end of Season 2. They may not have all
the episodes, though, because the only million-winner I saw in '07-'08
was the loathsome Gene Simmons of Kiss; several celebrities appeared
in the "later this season" promos at the ends of episodes, though not him,
who didn't appear in the current cycle.

The rules changed when it moved to syndication and was then revived.

[Yurui Liu]

Jerry Friedman 在 2020年11月28日 星期六下午11:29:27 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道：

> On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 7:14:24 AM UTC-7, Ken Blake wrote:
> > On 11/28/2020 2:01 AM, Hibou wrote:
> > > Le 28/11/2020 à 06:56, Yurui Liu a écrit :
> > >> Hi,
> > >>
> > >> Does anyone know why the adjective in "chicken-fried steak" is
> > >> hyphenated by some people but not by others? Is the hyphen-less
> > >> version a redneck-style spelling?
> > >>
> > >> I'd appreciate your help.
> > >
> > > Such hyphens avoid a momentary ambiguity, and in general people use too
> > > few of them.
> > I agree with both those statements.
> So do I.
>
> In general, hyphens aren't very popular.
>
> Without data, I'd guess the majority of Americans don't know the supposed
> standard rules for hyphens. Thus unneeded hyphens often appear: "it changes
> from day-to-day," "She's eleven-years-old." After all, not all the standard rules
> are all that standard. I think some teachers may teach that hyphens are
> completely optional. I think some people who do understand the more

Is the hyphen-less version common in educated writings?
"a wide-ranging analysis" vs. ""a wide ranging analysis" (I seem to have seen the
latter in British books.)

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

I'd take it to mean a southern (US) white male who probably has a
confederate flag nearby.


--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

[Tony Cooper]

What I'm interested in is what Yurui Liu thinks a "redneck" is. Almost
all Americans, and most readers of this group, would have a definition
in mind.

But Yurui Liu does not seem to be a follower of the posts here except
when they are follow-ups to his questions. I don't know if his
reading or viewing habits outside of a.u.e. would provide him with a
definition.

He used the term, so he has some definition in mind.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 9:45:40 AM UTC-7, liuyur...@gmail.com wrote:
> Jerry Friedman 在 2020年11月28日 星期六下午11:29:27 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道：

...

> > Without data, I'd guess the majority of Americans don't know the supposed
> > standard rules for hyphens. Thus unneeded hyphens often appear: "it changes
> > from day-to-day," "She's eleven-years-old." After all, not all the standard rules
> > are all that standard. I think some teachers may teach that hyphens are
> > completely optional. I think some people who do understand the more
> Is the hyphen-less version common in educated writings?
> "a wide-ranging analysis" vs. ""a wide ranging analysis" (I seem to have seen the
> latter in British books.)

...

Google ngram search is a good tool for answering such questions. It would be an
excellent tool except that if you try to do calculations with it, it will probably
interpret the hyphen as a minus sign

https://books.google.com/ngrams.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Paul Carmichael]

El 28/11/20 a las 7:56, Yurui Liu escribió:

I want to know what the hell it means.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

[Pamela]

On 09:01 28 Nov 2020, Hibou said:

> Le 28/11/2020 à 06:56, Yurui Liu a écrit :
>> Hi,
>>
>> Does anyone know why the adjective in "chicken-fried steak" is
>> hyphenated by some people but not by others? Is the hyphen-less
>> version a redneck-style spelling?
>>
>> I'd appreciate your help.
>
> Such hyphens avoid a momentary ambiguity, and in general people
> use too few of them. The difference between those who use them and
> those who don't, I should say, is that between those who think
> about words as they write them and those whose English is
> prefabricated phrases.

Depending on how you read some phrases, the hyphen could arguably be
moved to another part and still improve the meaning.

In this instance, the phrase would become "chicken fried-steak" and
still convey the same meaning although with different emphasis.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 5:57:31 AM UTC-5, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> El 28/11/20 a las 7:56, Yurui Liu escribió:

> > Does anyone know why the adjective in "chicken-fried steak" is
> > hyphenated by some people but not by others? Is the hyphen-less
> > version a redneck-style spelling?
> > I'd appreciate your help.
>
> I want to know what the hell it means.

As several people have already explained, it means steak fried
using the method usually used for frying chicken.

[Peter T. Daniels]

What nonsense. There's no such thing as "fried-steak."

If there were some context in which "fried steak" were used as an
adjective to modify a noun, then it would take the hyphen: "This is
my fried-steak plate. I never serve anything else on it." (But since
steak isn't usually prepared with a method designated as "frying,"
that's unlikely. You may use a frying pan to do it, but you're not
"frying" the steak.)

[Mack A. Damia]

Sausage With Peppers and Onions

YIELD: 4 servings
TIME: 30 minutes

For an easy, hearty dinner (or breakfast or lunch) buy fresh Italian
pork fennel sausages, preferably from an Italian deli or butcher. Pair
them with quickly stewed peppers and onions, splashed with vinegar,
and fried eggs.

INGREDIENTS:
8 Italian pork fennel sausages, sweet or hot (about 2 pounds)
Extra-virgin olive oil
3 or 4 medium bell peppers, a mix of red and yellow, sliced into
1/4-inch strips
2 medium red onions, sliced into 1/4-inch half-moons
Salt and pepper
2 garlic cloves, minced
1 tablespoon red wine vinegar
Pinch of crushed red pepper
Pinch of dried oregano
Basil leaves, for garnish
4 large eggs (optional)

PREPARATION:

Prick each sausage in several places with a skewer or the tip of
paring knife to prevent bursting. Put sausages in one layer in a
skillet. Add water to cover and bring to a simmer. Cook for 5 minutes,
then cover, turn off heat and let steep.

Place a wide skillet over high heat and add 2 tablespoons olive oil.
When oil is hot, add sliced peppers and onions. Season generously with
salt and pepper, and cook, stirring frequently, until softened and
beginning to brown, about 10 minutes. Adjust heat as necessary if
mixture seems to be cooking too quickly. Add garlic just at the end,
stir to incorporate and cook 1 minute more. Stir in the vinegar.

Transfer pepper mixture to a platter. Over medium heat, coat pan with
1 tablespoon olive oil, add sausages and cook 2 to 3 minutes per side,
to brown. Top pepper mixture with cooked sausages. Sprinkle with
crushed red pepper and oregano and garnish with basil leaves.

If desired, in the same wide skillet, fry eggs sunny side up in a
little olive oil to accompany. Season with salt and pepper.

Photo:
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017/09/27/dining/27KITCHENSAUSAGES1/27KITCHENSAUSAGES-articleLarge.jpg

[Mack A. Damia]

Chez Ma Tante’s Pancakes

YIELD: 6 to 8 large pancakes
TIME: 20 minutes

At the Brooklyn restaurant Chez Ma Tante, the brunch pancakes come two
to an order, big as dessert plates and almost burnt. “I knew I wanted
them to be really, really crispy,” said the chef de cuisine Jake
Leiber. He was inspired by a fairly straightforward pancake recipe
made with bacon fat he found in “How America Eats,” the seminal
cookbook by Clementine Paddleford, an American food historian. Mr.
Leiber swaps the lard for butter, adds an extra egg yolk to his
batter, cranks up the heat on his vintage cast-iron skillet, then
pours in an outrageous amount of melted clarified butter. Fried in
shallow pools of hot fat, each pancake gets fritter-like crisped
edges. Mr. Leiber serves them with more butter, and glugs of maple
syrup.

INGREDIENTS:

1 large egg
1 egg yolk
2 ½ tablespoons baking powder
2 tablespoons granulated sugar
1 teaspoon kosher salt
1 ¼ cups whole milk
1 cup all-purpose flour
1 cup plus 2 tablespoons clarified butter (or store-bought), melted
Salted butter, for serving (optional)
Maple syrup, for serving

PREPARATION:

Whisk egg and yolk together in a medium bowl. Add baking powder, sugar
and salt; whisk until smooth and fluffy. Pour in half the milk, then
half the flour. Using a wooden spoon, stir to combine. Add the
remaining milk and flour plus 2 tablespoons clarified butter and stir
briefly just until batter comes together but is still somewhat lumpy.

Heat a large 12-inch cast-iron skillet or griddle over medium-high for
at least 5 minutes. Pour about 1/4 cup clarified butter into the pan.
When the surface of the clarified butter starts to shimmer, ladle
about 1/3 cup of the batter into the skillet for each pancake, leaving
a couple of inches between each pancake. Add more clarified butter as
pancakes cook to keep about 1/8 inch of fat in the bottom of the pan
at all times.

Cook until the top of the pancake starts to bubble and edges turn
browned and crisp, 2 to 3 minutes. Use a spatula to flip each pancake.
The cooked surface should be very crispy, with a dark ring around the
edge. Cook until the second side is browned and crisp, 2 to 3 minutes.
Repeat to cook the remaining pancakes, adding more clarified butter as
needed.

Serve immediately with pats of salted butter, if desired, and maple
syrup. If making a large batch, cooked pancakes can be kept warm on a
wire rack set in a rimmed metal baking sheet in a 300-degree oven.

Tip:
The batter can be made ahead and refrigerated overnight. You might
need to increase cook time on the pancakes by 1 minute or so on each
side.

Photo:
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2019/05/08/dining/dg-chez-ma-tante-pancakes/dg-chez-ma-tante-pancakes-articleLarge.jpg

[Peter Moylan]

On 29/11/20 22:39, Pamela wrote:

> Depending on how you read some phrases, the hyphen could arguably be
> moved to another part and still improve the meaning.
>
> In this instance, the phrase would become "chicken fried-steak" and
> still convey the same meaning although with different emphasis.

I presume that this means chicken prepared so as to resemble fried steak.

Or are we still on the topic of the syntax of Chinese restaurant menus?
In that case, it would mean "chicken with fried steak".

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW

[Peter Moylan]

On 30/11/20 06:35, Stefan Ram wrote:

> Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com> writes:

>> I want to know what the hell it means.
>

> coated with seasoned flour or batter and fried

Aha! We have been given a number of different answers to this question
over time, but I think this is the first time a batter has been
mentioned. That gives me a new picture of what it means.

Initially, I thought it meant steak fried in chicken fat.

[RH Draney]

On 11/29/2020 6:05 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 29/11/20 22:39, Pamela wrote:
>
>> Depending on how you read some phrases, the hyphen could arguably be
>>  moved to another part and still improve the meaning.
>>
>> In this instance, the phrase would become "chicken fried-steak" and
>> still convey the same meaning although with different emphasis.
>
> I presume that this means chicken prepared so as to resemble fried steak.

Other way round...steak fried in the manner that chicken is fried....

> Or are we still on the topic of the syntax of Chinese restaurant menus?
> In that case, it would mean "chicken with fried steak".

I once saw a man eating rabbit....r

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 18:22:22 -0700, RH Draney <dado...@cox.net>
wrote:

>On 11/29/2020 6:05 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 29/11/20 22:39, Pamela wrote:
>>
>>> Depending on how you read some phrases, the hyphen could arguably be
>>>  moved to another part and still improve the meaning.
>>>
>>> In this instance, the phrase would become "chicken fried-steak" and
>>> still convey the same meaning although with different emphasis.
>>
>> I presume that this means chicken prepared so as to resemble fried steak.
>
>Other way round...steak fried in the manner that chicken is fried....

Inexpensive cut of steak that is battered like chicken and fried.

Smothered with a white gravy (flour, butter, cream, seasonings).

If you are ever in San Diego, you can get delicious chicken fried
steak at the Chicken Pie Shop on El Cajon Blvd.

COUNTRY FRIED STEAK $14.95
hand-breaded top sirloin served with whipped potatoes, daily vegetable
or coleslaw, soup, a pie shop roll, and dessert

https://chickenpieshops.com/san-diego-north-park-san-diego-chicken-pie-shop-food-menu

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 12:05:59 +1100, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 29/11/20 22:39, Pamela wrote:
>
>> Depending on how you read some phrases, the hyphen could arguably be
>> moved to another part and still improve the meaning.
>>
>> In this instance, the phrase would become "chicken fried-steak" and
>> still convey the same meaning although with different emphasis.
>
>I presume that this means chicken prepared so as to resemble fried steak.

No, not chicken and not to resemble steak. It is steak (of a sort)
fried as one would fry chicken. The meat is breaded. It is usually
served covered with cream (white) gravy.

I said "(of a sort)" because it is a beefsteak cutlet pounded thin and
the only resemblance to "steak" is that is beef.

[Tony Cooper]

In a post I just sent I said it was "breaded". The breading is
accomplished by first coating the cutlet with a batter and then
rolling it in bread crumbs. The batter makes the breading stick to
the cutlet.

[bil...@shaw.ca]

When I was editing newspaper copy, I used hyphens in adjectival phrases such as
chicken-fried if I thought there was a possibility some readers might misunderstand
the phrase without it. If I thought the phrase was perfectly clear without it, I'd leave it out.
As I recall, the style book we used didn't cover that point.

bill

[Peter Moylan]

That, as I now understand it, is chicken-fried steak. But Pamela was
referring to chicken fried-steak, which sounds as if it ought to be
something different.

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 15:06:32 +1100, Peter Moylan

I don't see the need for a hyphen at all. "Chicken fried steak" is
either a term that is understood in that form or not understood at
all. To someone who has never heard of chicken fried steak, the
presence of the hyphen would not make the term understandable.

[Lewis]

In message <rq1glt$7t0$2...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> On 30/11/20 06:35, Stefan Ram wrote:
>> Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com> writes:

>>> I want to know what the hell it means.
>>
>> coated with seasoned flour or batter and fried

> Aha! We have been given a number of different answers to this question
> over time, but I think this is the first time a batter has been
> mentioned. That gives me a new picture of what it means.

Batter is not how I make fried chicken, but it is how I make
chicken-fried steak, although it is a bit more like a paste than a
batter.

Fried chicken is rolled in flour (usually with some spices mixed in the
flour, set aside and then rolled in flour again.

> Initially, I thought it meant steak fried in chicken fat.



--

Minds are like parachutes, they only work when they are open.

[Yurui Liu]

Tony Cooper 在 2020年11月30日 星期一下午1:14:40 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道：

I think the hyphen is mandated for most attributive compound adjectives in
American writing guides, by which I mean those tomes numbering hundreds of
pages, not style sheets or booklets.




>
> Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

[Hibou]

Sometimes it's wise to avoid all ambiguity. There's a world of
difference between a "free cash-machine" and a "free-cash machine". ;-)

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

That's what I thought it meant, but I haven't lost a lot of sleep
worrying about it.


--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2020-11-30 01:22:22 +0000, RH Draney said:

>
> [ … ]

>
> I once saw a man eating rabbit....r

If you'd been here yesterday you'd have seen me doing exactly that.

[Lewis]

It should at least tell anyone that the steak is "fried like chicken"
even if they do not know what fried chicken is.


--
One of the universal rules of happiness is: always be wary of any
helpful item that weighs less than its operating manual. --Jingo

[Ken Blake]

To put it slightly differently, it's steak fried the same way chicken in
usually fried.

I don't like it.



--
Ken

[Pamela]

I weas suggesting an alternative viable reading of:

chicken "fried steak"

written as:

chicken fried-steak

which uses the hyhen to attach "fried" and "steak" closely together.

In other words a fried steak made of chicken.

[Pamela]

Oh! I was reading it as a fried steak of chicken.

[Ken Blake]

On 11/29/2020 6:22 PM, RH Draney wrote:
> On 11/29/2020 6:05 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 29/11/20 22:39, Pamela wrote:
>>
>>> Depending on how you read some phrases, the hyphen could arguably be
>>>  moved to another part and still improve the meaning.
>>>
>>> In this instance, the phrase would become "chicken fried-steak" and
>>> still convey the same meaning although with different emphasis.
>>
>> I presume that this means chicken prepared so as to resemble fried steak.
>
> Other way round...steak fried in the manner that chicken is fried....

No, that would be "chicken-fried steak."

--
Ken

[Ken Blake]

On 11/30/2020 2:20 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2020-11-30 01:22:22 +0000, RH Draney said:
>
>>
>> [ … ]
>
>>
>> I once saw a man eating rabbit....r
>
> If you'd been here yesterday you'd have seen me doing exactly that.

Rabbit is one of my favorite kinds of meat. It use to be very
inexpesnive in the USA, but it changed entirely and we rarely buy it. I
usually get it only when we're traveling in Europe. In particular,
there's a restaurant in Nice at which I particularly like it.


--
Ken

[Peter T. Daniels]

The "batter" can also be beaten egg.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, November 30, 2020 at 12:14:40 AM UTC-5, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 15:06:32 +1100, Peter Moylan
> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
> >On 30/11/20 14:09, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 12:05:59 +1100, Peter Moylan
> >> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> >>> I presume that this means chicken prepared so as to resemble fried
> >>> steak.
> >> No, not chicken and not to resemble steak. It is steak (of a sort)
> >> fried as one would fry chicken. The meat is breaded. It is usually
> >> served covered with cream (white) gravy.
> >> I said "(of a sort)" because it is a beefsteak cutlet pounded thin
> >> and the only resemblance to "steak" is that is beef.
> >That, as I now understand it, is chicken-fried steak. But Pamela was
> >referring to chicken fried-steak, which sounds as if it ought to be
> >something different.

Because English uses hyphens in exactly such situations.

> I don't see the need for a hyphen at all. "Chicken fried steak" is
> either a term that is understood in that form or not understood at
> all. To someone who has never heard of chicken fried steak, the
> presence of the hyphen would not make the term understandable.

It makes it a hell of a lot clearer than without the hyphen.

[Peter Moylan]

I caught many rabbits as a child. So many that I can no longer stand the
taste.

[Peter Moylan]

And I originally assumed it to be steak fried in chicken fat. I wasn't
sure whether chicken meat was also included.

My assumptions were based on the knowledge that such combinations are
not unusual. An item often seen on Australian restaurant menus is
Surf'N'Turf, meaning steak served with prawns. There is also the
traditional pub meal of "mixed grill", this being several meats served
together.

[Peter Moylan]

In some regions.

Here, I can think of two kinds of fried chicken. The kind sold by
Kentucky Fried Chicken is battered and (I assume) deep-fried. You might
think of it as fish-fried chicken. But if people fry chicken at home
they're more likely to use a pan and no batter.

Your chicken-fried steak sounds a bit like our crumbed steak, but with
one difference. People here fry crumbed steak in a pan. Nobody would
dream of deep-frying it.

[Ken Blake]

On 11/30/2020 4:06 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 01/12/20 02:00, Pamela wrote:
>> On 12:55 30 Nov 2020, Lewis said:
>>
>>> In message <mjv8sfd590um5af7c...@4ax.com> Tony
>>> Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>> I don't see the need for a hyphen at all. "Chicken fried steak"
>>>> is either a term that is understood in that form or not
>>>> understood at all. To someone who has never heard of chicken
>>>> fried steak, the presence of the hyphen would not make the term
>>>> understandable.
>>>
>>> It should at least tell anyone that the steak is "fried like
>>> chicken" even if they do not know what fried chicken is.
>>
>> Oh! I was reading it as a fried steak of chicken.
>
> And I originally assumed it to be steak fried in chicken fat. I wasn't
> sure whether chicken meat was also included.
>
> My assumptions were based on the knowledge that such combinations are
> not unusual. An item often seen on Australian restaurant menus is
> Surf'N'Turf, meaning steak served with prawns.

Often seeen in US restaurants too. I never order it. It's a poor
combination as far as I'm concerned, because one half wants red wine and
the other white.


--
Ken

[Sam Plusnet]

If your steak demands a glass of the house red, it's underdone.

--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK

[Peter Moylan]

Some of us prefer rare steaks. When asked my preference, I will
sometimes say "still mooing".

[RH Draney]

On 11/30/2020 4:06 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>

> My assumptions were based on the knowledge that such combinations are
> not unusual. An item often seen on Australian restaurant menus is
> Surf'N'Turf, meaning steak served with prawns. There is also the
> traditional pub meal of "mixed grill", this being several meats served
> together.

I've been noticing a "Mar y Tierra" option at the Mexican drive-thru
places I sometimes pick up orders from...I assume that's another variant
of surf-n-turf....

The "secret menu" at McDonald's includes what they call the "land, sea
and air burger"...that's got beef (two patties), fish (one breaded
patty) and chicken (two breaded patties), all on a single bun...if you
leave out the fish, you've got what's called a "McGangBang"....r

[RH Draney]

On 11/30/2020 4:14 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
> Here, I can think of two kinds of fried chicken. The kind sold by
> Kentucky Fried Chicken is battered and (I assume) deep-fried. You might
> think of it as fish-fried chicken. But if people fry chicken at home
> they're more likely to use a pan and no batter.

There's also the tempura variety....r

[musika]

Knock off its horns, wipe its arse and and bung it on a plate.

--
Ray
UK

[Quinn C]

* RH Draney:

But the normal Japanese fried chicken is kara-age, which is without
batter. As the name says: empty-fry (cf. kara-te, empty hand.)

--
The wrong body ... now comes not to claim rightness but to
dismantle the system that metes out rightness and wrongness
according to the dictates of various social orders.
-- Jack Halberstam, Unbuilding Gender

[Adam Funk]

On 2020-11-30, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Monday, November 30, 2020 at 12:14:40 AM UTC-5, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 15:06:32 +1100, Peter Moylan
>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >On 30/11/20 14:09, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 12:05:59 +1100, Peter Moylan
>> >> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>> >>> I presume that this means chicken prepared so as to resemble fried
>> >>> steak.
>> >> No, not chicken and not to resemble steak. It is steak (of a sort)
>> >> fried as one would fry chicken. The meat is breaded. It is usually
>> >> served covered with cream (white) gravy.
>> >> I said "(of a sort)" because it is a beefsteak cutlet pounded thin
>> >> and the only resemblance to "steak" is that is beef.
>> >That, as I now understand it, is chicken-fried steak. But Pamela was
>> >referring to chicken fried-steak, which sounds as if it ought to be
>> >something different.
>
> Because English uses hyphens in exactly such situations.

Well, *if* the menu has been written & printed that way! The ease of
doing stuff yourself on a computer means less & less material gets
checked by a secretary or someone else who knows how to correct these
things.

>> I don't see the need for a hyphen at all. "Chicken fried steak" is
>> either a term that is understood in that form or not understood at
>> all. To someone who has never heard of chicken fried steak, the
>> presence of the hyphen would not make the term understandable.
>
> It makes it a hell of a lot clearer than without the hyphen.

I'm not sure how much --- it's obvious to you & me because we already
know what the dish is. Someone else might suppose it's a steak fried
in chicken fat, a steak fried with a piece of chicken, or whatever.


--
Consistently separating words by spaces became a general custom about
the tenth century A. D., and lasted until about 1957, when FORTRAN
abandoned the practice. ---Sun FORTRAN Reference Manual

[Peter T. Daniels]

Over Here, Surf 'n' Turf is usually steak and lobster (tail). Very expensive --
except this year there's a glut in the lobster market, because the critters
don't stop reproducing, but the restaurants have mostly stopped serving
them (the *Annie Hall* situation is unusual).

[Ken Blake]

I also prefer them rare. And I especially want hamburgers to be very rare.

When I order a hamburger in a restaurant, I always say "very, very
rare." The waitress sometimes repeats my order, saying "very rare," and
I repeat myself, and say "no, very, *very* rare."

I used to make the mistake of ordering hamburgers rare, but I found that
in most restaurants that got me what I would call "medium" or sometimes
even "medium-well."

I've several times sent back a hamburger or steak for being overcooked,
but never for being undercooked.

--
Ken

[Adam Funk]

I doubt many households these days have a big enough pot for that.
(As it happens, I do, but I use it mainly for brewing beer.)


--
What an enormous thrill it would be for an Angel to kick Mick Jagger's
teeth down his throat.
---Rolling Stone, 21 January 1970

[Pamela]

Aren't rare hamburgers prone to bacteria on the surface getting into
the rest of the ground meat? Whereas cooking a steak kills that
outer bacteria, even if it the steak is only cooked rare.

[Pamela]

Your different interpretation highlights the inherent ambiguity of
using a hypen with three words, two of which form a phrase.

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 01 Dec 2020 16:57:26 GMT, Pamela <pamela...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Many restaurants in this area refuse to serve a rare or medium rare
hamburger. Five Guys is one, and that's why I don't patronize Five
Guys anymore.

--

Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

[Ken Blake]

Yes, that's why it's very important to carefully wash the meat before
grinding it. It's primarily E. coli that's the danger. I think I
mentioned this in a another thread a few days ago.

I won't eat a hamburger any way but very rare, and because of the danger
you point out, I'm careful only to have hamburgers in places I trust to
do it right.

I'm also aware that although I try to minimize the danger, I can't
eliminate it entirely. Fortunately, although E. coli can make you feel
very sick for several days, the risk of its being fatal is slight. I
like hamburgers a lot.

> Whereas cooking a steak kills that
> outer bacteria, even if it the steak is only cooked rare.

Yes.


--
Ken

[Ken Blake]

It's not only your area. It is here too. I think it is all over the USA.
They don't want to run the risk of getting sued.

I've never been to a Five Guys, but I've wanted to try it. Since you
point that I can't get what I want there, I won't.


--
Ken

[Peter T. Daniels]

If you want steak tartare, go to someplace that serves steak tartare.

The no-longer-viewed Gordon Ramsay would not tolerate any beef
cooked beyond medium rare.

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 1 Dec 2020 12:19:22 -0700, Ken Blake <k...@invalidemail.com>
wrote:

According to one website, Fuddruckers will prepare a rare hamburger.
There used to be a Fuddruckwers in this part of town, but it closed.
The one(s)? in Central Florida that are still in business are too far
away from to check out. When the one on this side of town was open,
they did serve good hamburgers.

[Tony Cooper]

The Walnut Room Marshall Field's on State Street in Chicago used to
have steak tatare on the menu, and it was excellent. I asssume,
though, that you do know the difference between raw beef and cooked
beef with a rare center and are just being your usual contrary self.

>
>The no-longer-viewed Gordon Ramsay would not tolerate any beef
>cooked beyond medium rare.

I have never dined at a place where Gordon Ramsay was involved. Not
that I wouldn't, but the opportunity never came up.

[Ken Blake]

Same here. The one near us also closed recently.

> they did serve good hamburgers.

I also thought they were pretty good, but I know several nearby places I
like better.



--
Ken

[Peter T. Daniels]

You don't seem to be familiar with what Ken is talking about. He wants
his beef cooked to less than the mandated 165 deg.F. Literally uncooked
in the middle.

> >The no-longer-viewed Gordon Ramsay would not tolerate any beef
> >cooked beyond medium rare.
>
> I have never dined at a place where Gordon Ramsay was involved. Not
> that I wouldn't, but the opportunity never came up.

What does that have to do with the fact that he is the de facto authority
on "fine dining" in this country, thanks to his extreme overexposure on
the Fox network?

It may well be that he does in fact own or partially own or operate a or
some establishments in your area.

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 1 Dec 2020 13:41:06 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Steak tartare is literally uncooked...at all.

>> >The no-longer-viewed Gordon Ramsay would not tolerate any beef
>> >cooked beyond medium rare.
>>
>> I have never dined at a place where Gordon Ramsay was involved. Not
>> that I wouldn't, but the opportunity never came up.
>
>What does that have to do with the fact that he is the de facto authority
>on "fine dining" in this country,

According to who? Gordon Ramsay?

>
>It may well be that he does in fact own or partially own or operate a or
>some establishments in your area.

What does that have to do with fact that I've never dined at a place
where Gordon Ramsay was involved?

You could actually run your fingers over the keyboard and find out if
GR does own or partially own an Orlando-area restaurant:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_restaurants_owned_or_operated_by_Gordon_Ramsay

and not make yet another inane comment.

[Sam Plusnet]

If a steak has been pounded with a tenderising mallet, wouldn't that
drive the bacteria into the steak?

This is just curiosity, I'm not all that fond of steak.

[RH Draney]

On 12/1/2020 3:18 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Dec 2020 13:41:06 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, December 1, 2020 at 3:24:13 PM UTC-5, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>
>>> I have never dined at a place where Gordon Ramsay was involved. Not
>>> that I wouldn't, but the opportunity never came up.
>>
>> What does that have to do with the fact that he is the de facto authority
>> on "fine dining" in this country,
>
> According to who? Gordon Ramsay?

I think he usurped the title after Anthony Bourdain died....r

[Snidely]

Remember Tuesday, when Tony Cooper asked plainitively:

I don't like rare. It's like paste.

/dps

--
"First thing in the morning, before I have coffee, I read the obits, If
I'm not in it, I'll have breakfast." -- Carl Reiner, to CBS News in
2015.

[Snidely]

Monday, Peter Moylan quipped:
> On 01/12/20 01:30, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 11/29/2020 6:08 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> On 30/11/20 06:35, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>> Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>>> I want to know what the hell it means.
>>>>
>>>> coated with seasoned flour or batter and fried
>>>
>>> Aha! We have been given a number of different answers to this
>>> question over time, but I think this is the first time a batter has
>>> been mentioned. That gives me a new picture of what it means.
>>>
>>> Initially, I thought it meant steak fried in chicken fat.
>>
>> To put it slightly differently, it's steak fried the same way chicken
>> in usually fried.
>
> In some regions.

>
> Here, I can think of two kinds of fried chicken. The kind sold by
> Kentucky Fried Chicken is battered and (I assume) deep-fried. You might
> think of it as fish-fried chicken. But if people fry chicken at home
> they're more likely to use a pan and no batter.

I think the (US) KFCs use something like a pressure cooker, not a deep
fryer. Other chains do tend to use deep fryers. KFC is slightly less
greasy, and still moist through.

> Your chicken-fried steak sounds a bit like our crumbed steak, but with
> one difference. People here fry crumbed steak in a pan. Nobody would
> dream of deep-frying it.

Chicken-fried steak is pan fried. Lots of people here pan fry chicken,
too, although some folk go for the home deep-fryer. As Lewis noted, a
common way of frying chicken is to roll it in flour and then pan fry
it. Using batter or bread crumbs on chicken is more likely (IME, at
least) to lead to baking or deep-frying.

/dps "Daddy, it's Shake-N-Bake, and Ah 'elped!"

--
There's nothing inherently wrong with Big Data. What matters, as it
does for Arnold Lund in California or Richard Rothman in Baltimore, are
the questions -- old and new, good and bad -- this newest tool lets us
ask. (R. Lerhman, CSMonitor.com)

[Peter Moylan]

The aim is to kill the bacteria by hitting them on the head.

I've never hit a steak with a mallet. Doesn't that just turn a good
thick steak into an inferior thin steak?

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

That makes two of us.

>
> The aim is to kill the bacteria by hitting them on the head.
>
> I've never hit a steak with a mallet. Doesn't that just turn a good
> thick steak into an inferior thin steak?


--

Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years

[musika]

I don't think it's done with a good cut of steak. It tends to make
cheaper, tougher, flavoursome steak more tender.

--
Ray
UK

[Lewis]

I cook rare burgers at home, and I will get rare burgers in a real
restaurant. I don't know of any fast-food restaurant that I would order
a rare burger from, so I do not know if any would cook it that way.

--
Qui me amat, amat et canem meam

[Lewis]

In message <mn.0d427e4c21102c4a.127094@snitoo> Snidely <snide...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Monday, Peter Moylan quipped:
>> On 01/12/20 01:30, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On 11/29/2020 6:08 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>> On 30/11/20 06:35, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>>> Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>>> I want to know what the hell it means.
>>>>>
>>>>> coated with seasoned flour or batter and fried
>>>>
>>>> Aha! We have been given a number of different answers to this
>>>> question over time, but I think this is the first time a batter has
>>>> been mentioned. That gives me a new picture of what it means.
>>>>
>>>> Initially, I thought it meant steak fried in chicken fat.
>>>
>>> To put it slightly differently, it's steak fried the same way chicken
>>> in usually fried.
>>
>> In some regions.
>>
>> Here, I can think of two kinds of fried chicken. The kind sold by
>> Kentucky Fried Chicken is battered and (I assume) deep-fried. You might
>> think of it as fish-fried chicken. But if people fry chicken at home
>> they're more likely to use a pan and no batter.

> I think the (US) KFCs use something like a pressure cooker, not a deep
> fryer. Other chains do tend to use deep fryers. KFC is slightly less
> greasy, and still moist through.

AFAIK all KFC have always used pressure cookers, quite specialized
pressure cookers as well. Their product has never been oil fried.

>> Your chicken-fried steak sounds a bit like our crumbed steak, but with
>> one difference. People here fry crumbed steak in a pan. Nobody would
>> dream of deep-frying it.

> Chicken-fried steak is pan fried.

Always.

> Lots of people here pan fry chicken,

Most people I think, since very few people have deep fryers and if they
do they don't want to heat up a gallon of oil just to make chicken and
then throw it away.

:shrug:

--
You could save people. You could get there in the nick of time. And
something could snap its fingers and say, no , it has to be that
way. Let me tell you how it has to be. This is how the legend
goes. --Soul Music

[Lewis]

It turns an inferior leather-sole steak into something you have a chance
of chewing.

I get around the problem by not buying shoe leather for food.

--
According to the philosopher Ly Tin Weedle, chaos is found in
greatest abundance wherever order is being sought. It always
defeats order, because it is better organized.

[Pamela]

I agree. Uncooked fat doesn't appeal.

At least steak tartare is well-seasoned but burgers in America, rare
or otherwise, are often served bland.

[Ken Blake]

Right. I never deep fry anything. From an economic standpoint, deep
frying usually makes sense only for restaurants, since they can use the
same oil again and again.

But I always say "sauté," rather than "pan-fry," and with chicken, I
almost always grill it, rather than sauté it.


--
Ken

[Ken Blake]

Many year ago, I was eating in a restaurant in Ndola, Zambia, and they
had something called "Monkey Steak" on the menu. The people I was with
assured me that it was really beef, and "monkey" just referred to the
restaurant's style of cooking it.

Since I couldn't find anything else I wanted on the menu, with some
trepidation I ordered it.

I took one bite and I chewed. And I chewed. And I chewed. Nothing
happened. It was the toughest piece of meat I had ever had in my mouth.
I had two choices--either take it out of my mouth with my fingers, or
just swallow it whole.

Despite the risk of swallowing it whole, I did. I survived, but it was
the only piece of it I ate.

Was it really beef steak, or were my companions just kidding? I never
found out.


--
Ken

[Jerry Friedman]

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020 at 7:01:47 AM UTC-7, Ken Blake wrote:
> On 12/2/2020 3:53 AM, Lewis wrote:
> > In message <mn.0d427e4c21102c4a.127094@snitoo> Snidely <snide...@gmail.com> wrote:

...

> >> Lots of people here pan fry chicken,
> >
> > Most people I think, since very few people have deep fryers and if they
> > do they don't want to heat up a gallon of oil just to make chicken and
> > then throw it away.
> Right. I never deep fry anything. From an economic standpoint, deep
> frying usually makes sense only for restaurants, since they can use the
> same oil again and again.

...

I think people who deep-fry at home reuse the oil (or shortening or
whatever).

--
Jerry Friedman

[Quinn C]

* Jerry Friedman:

I recently made "fried chicken" in the narrow sense for the first time
ever. I used what one recipe called shallow fry method - the pieces are
just covered in oil, and you fry few at a time. I used a small pot to
further reduce the amount of oil needed - about 200ml. I then filtered
the oil through a paper towel, and have used it since for pan-frying
eggs or other meats.

My ex was deep-frying regularly. At one point, we bought a deep-fryer,
in the hope that I'll be bothered less by the smells, but she hated it
and soon went back to using a pot.

--
The Eskimoes had fifty-two names for snow because it was
important to them, there ought to be as many for love.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.106

[Quinn C]

* Peter Moylan:

Maybe injecting with bleach would trump the infection concern. Should
help with the tenderizing, too.

--
The wrong body ... now comes not to claim rightness but to
dismantle the system that metes out rightness and wrongness
according to the dictates of various social orders.
-- Jack Halberstam, Unbuilding Gender

[Peter T. Daniels]

Just like the middle of a rare hamburger.

By definition.

> >> >The no-longer-viewed Gordon Ramsay would not tolerate any beef
> >> >cooked beyond medium rare.
> >> I have never dined at a place where Gordon Ramsay was involved. Not
> >> that I wouldn't, but the opportunity never came up.
> >What does that have to do with the fact that he is the de facto authority
> >on "fine dining" in this country,
> According to who? Gordon Ramsay?

We've just discovered another English word not known to the Great
Orlandan: "de facto."

> >It may well be that he does in fact own or partially own or operate a or
> >some establishments in your area.
>
> What does that have to do with fact that I've never dined at a place
> where Gordon Ramsay was involved?

You may well have done so, all unwittingly.

Your mental acuity seems unusually low today.

> You could actually run your fingers over the keyboard and find out if
> GR does own or partially own an Orlando-area restaurant:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_restaurants_owned_or_operated_by_Gordon_Ramsay
>
> and not make yet another inane comment.

Did you discover that he does?

Does that list include part-interest?

No, I do not give a flying fuck as to the answer, but since it's important
to you to have never dined in a Ramsay establishment, what did you
discover?

[Peter T. Daniels]

A difference being that Bourdain seems to have actually been involved
in fine dining, but pop icon Ramsay, only in "fine dining."

[Rich Ulrich]

On Wed, 2 Dec 2020 10:15:45 +0000, musika <mUs...@NOSPAMexcite.com>
wrote:

I once ate in a restaurant that my parents assured me had
good (and tender) steaks.

The steaks were easy to cut because the place provided the
sharpest "steak knives" I have ever used.

I don't think I've heard of steak knives as a thing since I
moved to Pittsburgh (1970s).

--
Rich Ulrich

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 2 Dec 2020 07:47:22 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

That would be "just like" only if a person who orders a rare hamburger
eats only the middle of the hamburger.

>> >> >The no-longer-viewed Gordon Ramsay would not tolerate any beef
>> >> >cooked beyond medium rare.
>> >> I have never dined at a place where Gordon Ramsay was involved. Not
>> >> that I wouldn't, but the opportunity never came up.
>> >What does that have to do with the fact that he is the de facto authority
>> >on "fine dining" in this country,
>> According to who? Gordon Ramsay?
>
>We've just discovered another English word not known to the Great
>Orlandan: "de facto."

The problem is that it isn't a fact in any form of reality. An
authority in fine dining would be followed by others who aspire to
provide fine dining. The de facto authority in this country would be
the single authority who most others in the fine dining restaurant
business in this country follow.

None of GR's restaurants in the US are currently rated in the Michelin
Guide. The three that did receive Michelin star ratings in the past
have all closed. Of the eight GR restaurants currently open in the
US, four are in Las Vegas and two are in Atlantic City. Fine dining
for the high-rollers, but not much influence for the rest of the
country.

What he might be is the de facto authority on how to gain attention in
rating other chefs and restaurants by demeaning them in the crudest
and rudest of all possible ways. Interesting television to some, but
it doesn't result in any form of authority in fine dining.

I would say the de facto authority on fine dining in this country
would not be a single person, but the James Beard Foundation. Their
awards recognize the finest restaurants and best chefs in the country.

A restaurant striving to be considered as a fine dining establishment
would want to be recognized by the James Beard Foundation rather than
GR.

>> >It may well be that he does in fact own or partially own or operate a or
>> >some establishments in your area.
>>
>> What does that have to do with fact that I've never dined at a place
>> where Gordon Ramsay was involved?
>
>You may well have done so, all unwittingly.

I manage to keep my wits about me when dining out.

>
>Your mental acuity seems unusually low today.
>
>> You could actually run your fingers over the keyboard and find out if
>> GR does own or partially own an Orlando-area restaurant:
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_restaurants_owned_or_operated_by_Gordon_Ramsay
>>
>> and not make yet another inane comment.
>
>Did you discover that he does?
>
>Does that list include part-interest?
>
>No, I do not give a flying fuck as to the answer, but since it's important
>to you to have never dined in a Ramsay establishment, what did you
>discover?

That my statement was correct.

[charles]

In article <4rhfsfdk6v08o7oif...@4ax.com>,

I can remember a group lunch during the Edinburgh Festival Fringe in 1962.
One pretensious young man (I forget who he was) asked the waiter for a
steak knife. the head waiter came over with a sharpening steel "I'm sorry
your knife isn't sharp enough", took it from him, sharpened it and returned
it.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Sam Plusnet]

You may be on to something there.

Didn't someone here say that (some) restaurants use a UV lamp when
grinding (that sounds wrong to me, BrE mincing) the meat for burgers?

The problem I have with using "grind, ground" in this context, is that I
expect such a process to produce a very fine particle size - like flour.

[Bill Day]

On Tue, 01 Dec 2020 12:30:20 -0500, Tony Cooper
<tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 01 Dec 2020 16:57:26 GMT, Pamela <pamela...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On 15:12 1 Dec 2020, Ken Blake said:

>>> On 11/30/2020 5:34 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>> On 01/12/20 10:31, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>>>> On 30-Nov-20 23:27, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/30/2020 4:06 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My assumptions were based on the knowledge that such
>>>>>>> combinations are not unusual. An item often seen on Australian
>>>>>>> restaurant menus is Surf'N'Turf, meaning steak served with
>>>>>>> prawns.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Often seeen in US restaurants too. I never order it. It's a
>>>>>> poor combination as far as I'm concerned, because one half
>>>>>> wants red wine and the other white.
>>>>>>
>>>>> If your steak demands a glass of the house red, it's underdone.
>>>>
>>>> Some of us prefer rare steaks. When asked my preference, I will
>>>> sometimes say "still mooing".
>>>

>>> I also prefer them rare. And I especially want hamburgers to be
>>> very rare.
>>>
>>> When I order a hamburger in a restaurant, I always say "very, very
>>> rare." The waitress sometimes repeats my order, saying "very
>>> rare," and I repeat myself, and say "no, very, *very* rare."
>>>
>>> I used to make the mistake of ordering hamburgers rare, but I
>>> found that in most restaurants that got me what I would call
>>> "medium" or sometimes even "medium-well."
>>>
>>> I've several times sent back a hamburger or steak for being
>>> overcooked, but never for being undercooked.
>>
>>Aren't rare hamburgers prone to bacteria on the surface getting into
>>the rest of the ground meat? Whereas cooking a steak kills that
>>outer bacteria, even if it the steak is only cooked rare.
>
>Many restaurants in this area refuse to serve a rare or medium rare
>hamburger. Five Guys is one, and that's why I don't patronize Five
>Guys anymore.

I never cared for rare beef, but it was just a matter of taste until a
friend who also came from Wichita, Kans. was cooking burgers on a
grill for a group of people. When one guy wanted 'rare', my friend
asked,
"Ever been to Kansas?"
"Umm.. no.."
"Ever seen a slaughter house and seen how beef is prepared?"
"Of course not."
He pointed to me and said, "We're from Kansas... we've seen it. We
cook 'em!"


--
remove nonsense for reply

[Ken Blake]

?? in my experience steak knives are very common. We have two sets of
them here.


--
Ken

[Lewis]

They SHOULD. But many people do not because it is "used".



--
"Send beer, words simply can't adequately express your gratitude" --
James Sedgwick

[Lewis]

We have two sets of steak knives. We have ALWAYS had steak knives. I had
my own set of steak knives before I was married and living in a tiny
two-room apartment with no stove and just a hot plate and "dorm"
fridge.


--
If at first you don't succeed, put it out for beta test.

[Lewis]

A meat grinder is a tool that produces ground beef (and ground meats for
sausages). We had one when I was a kid, but we do not have one now.

<https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32842817321.html>

Basically looked like that, only not shiny. It clamped to the side of a
table.

--
On a scale of one to ten, it sucked.

[Sam Plusnet]

Those were/are well known in the UK, not as shiny, a composite of rough
castings the most well known brand name is "Spong".

Here these things are called mincers, since the output is coarse unlike
a grinder which makes a fine powder.

[Peter Moylan]

On 03/12/20 01:01, Ken Blake wrote:
>
> Right. I never deep fry anything. From an economic standpoint, deep
> frying usually makes sense only for restaurants, since they can use
> the same oil again and again.

I used to deep-fry potato chips at home. You can re-use the oil for
quite a while provided that you're careful about removing the (probably
carcinogenic) crumbs that tend to accumulate.

But I wouldn't deep-fry anything else in the fryer, because the little
bits that fall off meat, for example, are a lot harder to remove, and a
lot more likely to be carcinogenic.

These days I don't particularly like chips, so I have no incentive to
get another fryer.

[Tony Cooper]

Ours was that flat, dull, gray also. It's been years, but I seem to
remember an extra part that determined how coarse the output was. I
seem to remember putting the meat through twice. Once for very coarse,
and then through again using a part with small holes.

The counter where it was clamped had a deep depression from tightening
the clamp.

[Quinn C]

* Sam Plusnet:

> The problem I have with using "grind, ground" in this context, is that I
> expect such a process to produce a very fine particle size - like flour.

Interesting. When I see the two expressions lined up, ground meat and
minced meat, I expect "minced" to be finer. Probably because minced
vegetables are especially finely chopped.

Even when talking about grinding corn, flour is just the finest of the
grinds.
<https://media02.stockfood.com/wmpreviews/MTU5ODQ2MzIz/12295871.jpg>

The coffee I grind for the French press is pretty coarse, too.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

[Quinn C]

* Ken Blake:

That was an odd thing to write. The opposite - "I don't think I had
heard of steak knives as a thing until ..." would seem much more
natural.

> ?? in my experience steak knives are very common. We have two sets of
> them here.

I have a few of them, but almost never use them for steak. Mostly for
preparation in the kitchen where a small serrated knife fits the job
best. Maybe they're actually tomato knives?

--
If men got pregnant, you could get an abortion at an ATM.
-- Selina Mayer, VEEP

[Jerry Friedman]

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020 at 8:19:29 PM UTC-7, Quinn C wrote:
...

> > On 12/2/2020 10:02 AM, Rich Ulrich wrote:

...

> >> I don't think I've heard of steak knives as a thing since I
> >> moved to Pittsburgh (1970s).
> That was an odd thing to write. The opposite - "I don't think I had
> heard of steak knives as a thing until ..." would seem much more
> natural.

...

But that would have been the opposite of what he meant. There were
steak knives in his life before he moved to Pittsburgh, but not after.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Lewis]

Doesn't sound like steak knives. Ours are not serrated, and they are too
small for being useful in kitchen prep.

<https://kamikoto.com/products/steak-knife-set>
<https://www.amazon.com/Emojoy-Pakkawood-Resistant-Stainless-Serrated/dp/B079GQJP39>

That is basically what our two sets look like, though ours were not
$400.

I have on occasions seen restaurants with a steak knife that is serrated
on the end. I don't know why, because it is not the right way to cut
steak.

--
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so, Bwain, but I don't think newspaper will fit in my
underoos."