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Oscar willy-shally?
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Ross
Nov 16, 2019, 7:06:56 PM11/16/19
to
Once again from the Life of Oscar Wilde:
---
One of the readers for Ward Lock & Co., the firm which published the
novel [The Picture of Dorian Gray] in England, was Coulson Kernahan,
who had been asked by Wilde to correct if necessary the 'wills' and
'shalls' and 'woulds' and 'shoulds', about which he never felt certain,
and pass the proofs for press. (p.150)
---
This is about 1890. Henry Fowler is still an obscure schoolmaster.
Yet a highly literate, Oxford-educated Anglo-Irish writer feels
unsure of his 'wills' and 'shalls'! Evidently he fails to trust
his own native intuitions because of someone's prescription about
how they should be used. Whose? (Coulson Kernahan himself does not
seem to have been in the grammar prescription business.)
I thought I might find something in Jespersen, but so far not much.
He has lots of nice examples, all the way from Shakespeare to his day,
which he attempts to fit into the "simple futurity vs. something else"
framework (with all its epicycles), but admits exceptions are unavoidable.
The one moment of fun so far has been a reference to a talk given by
Henry Sweet to the Philological Society in 1885, proposing to explain
the variation of will/shall use with "we". Jespersen quotes his rule,
which runs for seven lines, and then: "The correctness of this rule
was contested by most of the members of the Philological Society that
were present when Sweet stated it." (Jespersen, Modern English Grammar,
Book IV, 16.3(1))
---
One of the readers for Ward Lock & Co., the firm which published the
novel [The Picture of Dorian Gray] in England, was Coulson Kernahan,
who had been asked by Wilde to correct if necessary the 'wills' and
'shalls' and 'woulds' and 'shoulds', about which he never felt certain,
and pass the proofs for press. (p.150)
---
This is about 1890. Henry Fowler is still an obscure schoolmaster.
Yet a highly literate, Oxford-educated Anglo-Irish writer feels
unsure of his 'wills' and 'shalls'! Evidently he fails to trust
his own native intuitions because of someone's prescription about
how they should be used. Whose? (Coulson Kernahan himself does not
seem to have been in the grammar prescription business.)
I thought I might find something in Jespersen, but so far not much.
He has lots of nice examples, all the way from Shakespeare to his day,
which he attempts to fit into the "simple futurity vs. something else"
framework (with all its epicycles), but admits exceptions are unavoidable.
The one moment of fun so far has been a reference to a talk given by
Henry Sweet to the Philological Society in 1885, proposing to explain
the variation of will/shall use with "we". Jespersen quotes his rule,
which runs for seven lines, and then: "The correctness of this rule
was contested by most of the members of the Philological Society that
were present when Sweet stated it." (Jespersen, Modern English Grammar,
Book IV, 16.3(1))
Peter Moylan
Nov 16, 2019, 7:55:05 PM11/16/19
to
On 17/11/19 11:06, Ross wrote:
> Once again from the Life of Oscar Wilde:
>
> --- One of the readers for Ward Lock & Co., the firm which published
> the novel [The Picture of Dorian Gray] in England, was Coulson
> Kernahan, who had been asked by Wilde to correct if necessary the
> 'wills' and 'shalls' and 'woulds' and 'shoulds', about which he never
> felt certain, and pass the proofs for press. (p.150) ---
>
> This is about 1890. Henry Fowler is still an obscure schoolmaster.
> Yet a highly literate, Oxford-educated Anglo-Irish writer feels
> unsure of his 'wills' and 'shalls'! Evidently he fails to trust his
> own native intuitions because of someone's prescription about how
> they should be used. Whose? (Coulson Kernahan himself does not seem
> to have been in the grammar prescription business.)
The shall/will usage in Oxford was probably different from that in
> Once again from the Life of Oscar Wilde:
>
> --- One of the readers for Ward Lock & Co., the firm which published
> the novel [The Picture of Dorian Gray] in England, was Coulson
> Kernahan, who had been asked by Wilde to correct if necessary the
> 'wills' and 'shalls' and 'woulds' and 'shoulds', about which he never
> felt certain, and pass the proofs for press. (p.150) ---
>
> This is about 1890. Henry Fowler is still an obscure schoolmaster.
> Yet a highly literate, Oxford-educated Anglo-Irish writer feels
> unsure of his 'wills' and 'shalls'! Evidently he fails to trust his
> own native intuitions because of someone's prescription about how
> they should be used. Whose? (Coulson Kernahan himself does not seem
> to have been in the grammar prescription business.)
Dublin. His confidence might have been shaken when what he heard in
Oxford contradicted his native-speaker intuition.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Horace LaBadie
Nov 16, 2019, 8:23:43 PM11/16/19
to
In article <06dc3e30-3e8e-4040...@googlegroups.com>,
Has anyone compared the novel's text with the original, shorter novella
published in Lippincott's Monthly to see what was changed?
published in Lippincott's Monthly to see what was changed?
Horace LaBadie
Nov 16, 2019, 8:28:24 PM11/16/19
to
In article <qqq5p6$i8u$1...@dont-email.me>,
the way Oscar spoke of him.
> The shall/will usage in Oxford was probably different from that in
> Dublin. His confidence might have been shaken when what he heard in
> Oxford contradicted his native-speaker intuition.
I was thinking the same thing, although Trinity wold probably not have
been all that different from Oxford, would it?
Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> On 17/11/19 11:06, Ross wrote:
> > Once again from the Life of Oscar Wilde:
> >
> > --- One of the readers for Ward Lock & Co., the firm which published
> > the novel [The Picture of Dorian Gray] in England, was Coulson
> > Kernahan, who had been asked by Wilde to correct if necessary the
> > 'wills' and 'shalls' and 'woulds' and 'shoulds', about which he never
> > felt certain, and pass the proofs for press. (p.150) ---
> >
> > This is about 1890. Henry Fowler is still an obscure schoolmaster.
> > Yet a highly literate, Oxford-educated Anglo-Irish writer feels
> > unsure of his 'wills' and 'shalls'! Evidently he fails to trust his
> > own native intuitions because of someone's prescription about how
> > they should be used. Whose? (Coulson Kernahan himself does not seem
> > to have been in the grammar prescription business.)
Walter Pater? He seems to have been an influence on Wilde, judging from
> On 17/11/19 11:06, Ross wrote:
> > Once again from the Life of Oscar Wilde:
> >
> > --- One of the readers for Ward Lock & Co., the firm which published
> > the novel [The Picture of Dorian Gray] in England, was Coulson
> > Kernahan, who had been asked by Wilde to correct if necessary the
> > 'wills' and 'shalls' and 'woulds' and 'shoulds', about which he never
> > felt certain, and pass the proofs for press. (p.150) ---
> >
> > This is about 1890. Henry Fowler is still an obscure schoolmaster.
> > Yet a highly literate, Oxford-educated Anglo-Irish writer feels
> > unsure of his 'wills' and 'shalls'! Evidently he fails to trust his
> > own native intuitions because of someone's prescription about how
> > they should be used. Whose? (Coulson Kernahan himself does not seem
> > to have been in the grammar prescription business.)
the way Oscar spoke of him.
> The shall/will usage in Oxford was probably different from that in
> Dublin. His confidence might have been shaken when what he heard in
> Oxford contradicted his native-speaker intuition.
been all that different from Oxford, would it?
Ross
Nov 17, 2019, 4:10:57 AM11/17/19
to
On Sunday, November 17, 2019 at 2:28:24 PM UTC+13, Horace LaBadie wrote:
> In article <qqq5p6$i8u$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
> > On 17/11/19 11:06, Ross wrote:
> > > Once again from the Life of Oscar Wilde:
> > >
> > > --- One of the readers for Ward Lock & Co., the firm which published
> > > the novel [The Picture of Dorian Gray] in England, was Coulson
> > > Kernahan, who had been asked by Wilde to correct if necessary the
> > > 'wills' and 'shalls' and 'woulds' and 'shoulds', about which he never
> > > felt certain, and pass the proofs for press. (p.150) ---
> > >
> > > This is about 1890. Henry Fowler is still an obscure schoolmaster.
> > > Yet a highly literate, Oxford-educated Anglo-Irish writer feels
> > > unsure of his 'wills' and 'shalls'! Evidently he fails to trust his
> > > own native intuitions because of someone's prescription about how
> > > they should be used. Whose? (Coulson Kernahan himself does not seem
> > > to have been in the grammar prescription business.)
>
> Walter Pater? He seems to have been an influence on Wilde, judging from
> the way Oscar spoke of him.
No doubt he admired his ideas, and even his style, but I don't think
> In article <qqq5p6$i8u$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
> > On 17/11/19 11:06, Ross wrote:
> > > Once again from the Life of Oscar Wilde:
> > >
> > > --- One of the readers for Ward Lock & Co., the firm which published
> > > the novel [The Picture of Dorian Gray] in England, was Coulson
> > > Kernahan, who had been asked by Wilde to correct if necessary the
> > > 'wills' and 'shalls' and 'woulds' and 'shoulds', about which he never
> > > felt certain, and pass the proofs for press. (p.150) ---
> > >
> > > This is about 1890. Henry Fowler is still an obscure schoolmaster.
> > > Yet a highly literate, Oxford-educated Anglo-Irish writer feels
> > > unsure of his 'wills' and 'shalls'! Evidently he fails to trust his
> > > own native intuitions because of someone's prescription about how
> > > they should be used. Whose? (Coulson Kernahan himself does not seem
> > > to have been in the grammar prescription business.)
>
> Walter Pater? He seems to have been an influence on Wilde, judging from
> the way Oscar spoke of him.
Pater was interested in grammar per se, or dispensed advice on usage.
Ross
Nov 17, 2019, 4:17:02 AM11/17/19
to
"a number of passages" which were in the magazine but omitted from the
book, or vice versa. No more particulars; and nothing about grammar.
Ross
Nov 17, 2019, 4:41:18 AM11/17/19
to
probably were, but it's hard to see why he would not have either ignored
them, or adapted himself to Oxford usage, unless there were someone
telling him that the Oxford way was "better" or even "correct".
Jespersen does have some interesting stuff in this connection. After
noting that the use of "I'll" expressing mere futurity is not at all
rare in recent English books ("recent" = late 19th/early 20th century),
goes on to note that "The Scotch and the Irish, hence also the Scotch-Irish
parts of the U.S., use constantly *will* in this way. (word order [sic]!)
After some examples, we get into full-blown moralizing, from William
Dwight Whitney (1868), writing of "A reprehensible popular inaccuracy -- commencing in this country, I believe, at the South or among the Irish...is threatening to wipe out in the first person of our futures the distinction between the two auxiliaries *shall* and *will*....to disregard obligation
in the laying out of future action, making arbitrary resolve the sole guide,
is a lesson which the community ought not to learn from any section or class,
in language any more than in political and social conduct."
This is followed by a quote from Curme (1913), who, after an attempt
to make American usage fit within the prescriptive frame (which Jespersen
finds implausible), notes "This should not be confounded with the
development within Irish and Scotch dialect, where the valuable distinctive
meanings of *shall* have been lost -- a most unfortunate result indicative
of less accurate thought and feeling."
Somebody like that must have got to Oscar.
Peter Moylan
Nov 17, 2019, 8:10:09 AM11/17/19
to
On 17/11/19 20:41, Ross wrote:
> On Sunday, November 17, 2019 at 1:55:05 PM UTC+13, Peter Moylan
> wrote:
>> On 17/11/19 11:06, Ross wrote:
>>> Once again from the Life of Oscar Wilde:
>>>
>>> --- One of the readers for Ward Lock & Co., the firm which
>>> published the novel [The Picture of Dorian Gray] in England, was
>>> Coulson Kernahan, who had been asked by Wilde to correct if
>>> necessary the 'wills' and 'shalls' and 'woulds' and 'shoulds',
>>> about which he never felt certain, and pass the proofs for press.
>>> (p.150) ---
>>>
>>> This is about 1890. Henry Fowler is still an obscure
>>> schoolmaster. Yet a highly literate, Oxford-educated Anglo-Irish
>>> writer feels unsure of his 'wills' and 'shalls'! Evidently he
>>> fails to trust his own native intuitions because of someone's
>>> prescription about how they should be used. Whose? (Coulson
>>> Kernahan himself does not seem to have been in the grammar
>>> prescription business.)
>>
>> The shall/will usage in Oxford was probably different from that in
>> Dublin. His confidence might have been shaken when what he heard
>> in Oxford contradicted his native-speaker intuition.
>
> On Sunday, November 17, 2019 at 1:55:05 PM UTC+13, Peter Moylan
> wrote:
>> On 17/11/19 11:06, Ross wrote:
>>> Once again from the Life of Oscar Wilde:
>>>
>>> --- One of the readers for Ward Lock & Co., the firm which
>>> published the novel [The Picture of Dorian Gray] in England, was
>>> Coulson Kernahan, who had been asked by Wilde to correct if
>>> necessary the 'wills' and 'shalls' and 'woulds' and 'shoulds',
>>> about which he never felt certain, and pass the proofs for press.
>>> (p.150) ---
>>>
>>> This is about 1890. Henry Fowler is still an obscure
>>> schoolmaster. Yet a highly literate, Oxford-educated Anglo-Irish
>>> writer feels unsure of his 'wills' and 'shalls'! Evidently he
>>> fails to trust his own native intuitions because of someone's
>>> prescription about how they should be used. Whose? (Coulson
>>> Kernahan himself does not seem to have been in the grammar
>>> prescription business.)
>>
>> The shall/will usage in Oxford was probably different from that in
>> Dublin. His confidence might have been shaken when what he heard
>> in Oxford contradicted his native-speaker intuition.
>
> Wilde's confidence does not strike me as that shakeable. Differences
> there probably were, but it's hard to see why he would not have
> either ignored them, or adapted himself to Oxford usage, unless there
> were someone telling him that the Oxford way was "better" or even
> "correct".
The Scotch/Irish style was entirely defensible. "Shall" implies
> there probably were, but it's hard to see why he would not have
> either ignored them, or adapted himself to Oxford usage, unless there
> were someone telling him that the Oxford way was "better" or even
> "correct".
obligation, and "will" implies volition. The Oxford scholars added an
extra layer, by modifying the first-person expressions to be suitable to
the upper classes:
"I shall do this" = I am going to do this, as is my duty.
"I will do this" = I intend to do this, regardless of social pressures.
That version was never adopted by the lower classes, and it was also not
adopted by the speakers of Irish English or Scottish English. I don't
find it surprising that Wilde found it difficult to adapt to a
difference between BrE and IrE.
Michèle
Nov 17, 2019, 11:01:37 AM11/17/19
to
Peter Moylan a exprimé avec précision :
ferai).
>
>
> The Scotch/Irish style was entirely defensible. "Shall" implies
> obligation, and "will" implies volition. The Oxford scholars added an
> extra layer, by modifying the first-person expressions to be suitable to
> the upper classes:
>
> "I shall do this" = I am going to do this, as is my duty.
> "I will do this" = I intend to do this, regardless of social pressur
Je croyais que will était une forme d'insistance.(C'est sûr que je le
>
> The Scotch/Irish style was entirely defensible. "Shall" implies
> obligation, and "will" implies volition. The Oxford scholars added an
> extra layer, by modifying the first-person expressions to be suitable to
> the upper classes:
>
> "I shall do this" = I am going to do this, as is my duty.
> "I will do this" = I intend to do this, regardless of social pressur
ferai).
Horace LaBadie
Nov 17, 2019, 11:12:51 AM11/17/19
to
In article <83160bc0-c4c2-4212...@googlegroups.com>,
Seems that a computer could do this in seconds, given accurate OCR
texts.
texts.
Horace LaBadie
Nov 17, 2019, 11:18:53 AM11/17/19
to
In article <9a9589c6-94c2-43e8...@googlegroups.com>,
have transferred his usage to Wilde.
I would think that the editors and publishers would have been the source
of conflict in Oscar's mind.
Ross <benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> On Sunday, November 17, 2019 at 2:28:24 PM UTC+13, Horace LaBadie wrote:
> > In article <qqq5p6$i8u$1...@dont-email.me>,
> > Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > > On 17/11/19 11:06, Ross wrote:
> > > > Once again from the Life of Oscar Wilde:
> > > >
> > > > --- One of the readers for Ward Lock & Co., the firm which published
> > > > the novel [The Picture of Dorian Gray] in England, was Coulson
> > > > Kernahan, who had been asked by Wilde to correct if necessary the
> > > > 'wills' and 'shalls' and 'woulds' and 'shoulds', about which he never
> > > > felt certain, and pass the proofs for press. (p.150) ---
> > > >
> > > > This is about 1890. Henry Fowler is still an obscure schoolmaster.
> > > > Yet a highly literate, Oxford-educated Anglo-Irish writer feels
> > > > unsure of his 'wills' and 'shalls'! Evidently he fails to trust his
> > > > own native intuitions because of someone's prescription about how
> > > > they should be used. Whose? (Coulson Kernahan himself does not seem
> > > > to have been in the grammar prescription business.)
> >
> > Walter Pater? He seems to have been an influence on Wilde, judging from
> > the way Oscar spoke of him.
>
> No doubt he admired his ideas, and even his style, but I don't think
> Pater was interested in grammar per se, or dispensed advice on usage.
I was thinking more of imitation. The very act of imitating Pater would
> On Sunday, November 17, 2019 at 2:28:24 PM UTC+13, Horace LaBadie wrote:
> > In article <qqq5p6$i8u$1...@dont-email.me>,
> > Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > > On 17/11/19 11:06, Ross wrote:
> > > > Once again from the Life of Oscar Wilde:
> > > >
> > > > --- One of the readers for Ward Lock & Co., the firm which published
> > > > the novel [The Picture of Dorian Gray] in England, was Coulson
> > > > Kernahan, who had been asked by Wilde to correct if necessary the
> > > > 'wills' and 'shalls' and 'woulds' and 'shoulds', about which he never
> > > > felt certain, and pass the proofs for press. (p.150) ---
> > > >
> > > > This is about 1890. Henry Fowler is still an obscure schoolmaster.
> > > > Yet a highly literate, Oxford-educated Anglo-Irish writer feels
> > > > unsure of his 'wills' and 'shalls'! Evidently he fails to trust his
> > > > own native intuitions because of someone's prescription about how
> > > > they should be used. Whose? (Coulson Kernahan himself does not seem
> > > > to have been in the grammar prescription business.)
> >
> > Walter Pater? He seems to have been an influence on Wilde, judging from
> > the way Oscar spoke of him.
>
> No doubt he admired his ideas, and even his style, but I don't think
> Pater was interested in grammar per se, or dispensed advice on usage.
have transferred his usage to Wilde.
I would think that the editors and publishers would have been the source
of conflict in Oscar's mind.
CDB
Nov 17, 2019, 1:41:00 PM11/17/19
to
tourne sur de différences étymologiques. Le mot "will" implique la
volonté, et le mot "shall" implique l'obligation; donc "I will do it"
veut dire "j'ai l'intention de faire qch" (c'est certain, dans mon
intention, que je le ferai), et "I shall do it" veut dire "c'est mon
devoir de faire qch" (et je peux prédire que je le ferai). Pour les 2è
et 3è personnes du verbe, le cas est a l'envers.
Il faut ajouter que ces propos sont souvent disputés.
Ross
Nov 17, 2019, 2:52:13 PM11/17/19
to
were these Oxford scholars?
Lewis
Nov 17, 2019, 3:14:30 PM11/17/19
to
Yes, but the present discussion of the use of Southern England turns on
etymological differences. The word "will" implies the will, and the word
"shall" implies the obligation; so "I will do it" means "I intend to do
it" (that's for sure, I'll do it), and "I shall do it" means "it's my
duty to do "(and I can predict that I will do it). For the 2nd and 3rd
people of the verb, the case is upside down.
I think google translate is getting rather good.
> Il faut ajouter que ces propos sont souvent disputés.
--
"He has Van Gogh's ear for music." - Billy Wilder
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Nov 17, 2019, 4:36:40 PM11/17/19
to
>
>> Il faut ajouter que ces propos sont souvent disputés.
>
> Par qui?
--
athel
>> Il faut ajouter que ces propos sont souvent disputés.
>
> Par qui?
--
CDB
Nov 17, 2019, 4:41:36 PM11/17/19
to
On 11/17/2019 3:14 PM, Lewis wrote:
Un peu partout.
Jerry Friedman
Nov 17, 2019, 8:43:20 PM11/17/19
to
his life. I can also easily imagine his fellow Oxford students and othe
English people sneering at him for non-standard uses of "will" and
"shall" without giving him helpful advice.
--
Jerry Friedman
Horace LaBadie
Nov 17, 2019, 9:26:56 PM11/17/19
to
In article <qqssvm$a36$1...@news.albasani.net>,
Considering the company that Lady Wilde entertained at Merrion Square,
including many literary luminaries such as J. S. LeFanu, I find it hard
to fathom how his instruction would have been faulty. Both Lady Wilde
and Sir William were celebrated authors. He might have been careless or
cavalier.
including many literary luminaries such as J. S. LeFanu, I find it hard
to fathom how his instruction would have been faulty. Both Lady Wilde
and Sir William were celebrated authors. He might have been careless or
cavalier.
Peter Moylan
Nov 17, 2019, 10:52:28 PM11/17/19
to
"between you and I", but I never succeeded. Her teachers firmly said
that "between you and me" was bad English.
RH Draney
Nov 18, 2019, 2:34:26 AM11/18/19
to
On 11/17/2019 8:52 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
> I put a lot of effort into trying to stop my daughter from saying
> "between you and I", but I never succeeded. Her teachers firmly said
> that "between you and me" was bad English.
Them's the breaks....r
>
> I put a lot of effort into trying to stop my daughter from saying
> "between you and I", but I never succeeded. Her teachers firmly said
> that "between you and me" was bad English.
bil...@shaw.ca
Nov 18, 2019, 3:14:51 AM11/18/19
to
bill
J. J. Lodder
Nov 18, 2019, 7:03:24 AM11/18/19
to
And quite off-topic, but still Wildish:
A Dutch art detective has recovered a ring that belonged to Oscar Wilde
and was stolen from a museum.
Mr Brand will be A Oxford on December 4 for a handing back ceremony.
He says he couldn't resist wearing it,
if only for one evening,
Jan
A Dutch art detective has recovered a ring that belonged to Oscar Wilde
and was stolen from a museum.
Mr Brand will be A Oxford on December 4 for a handing back ceremony.
He says he couldn't resist wearing it,
if only for one evening,
Jan
Horace LaBadie
Nov 18, 2019, 7:55:01 AM11/18/19
to
In article <1oh8m1s.h0x...@de-ster.xs4all.nl>,
"How did you find Mr. Wilde's ring?"
"I looked for it."
"I looked for it."
Peter Moylan
Nov 18, 2019, 9:44:36 AM11/18/19
to
education degree, I imagine.
Jerry Friedman
Nov 18, 2019, 10:27:31 AM11/18/19
to
LeFanu, vetted Oscar's teachers for their ability to teach the several
pages' worth of rules for shall/should/will/would to someone who hadn't
acquired them natively? If so, how did they do that?
--
Jerry Friedman
CDB
Nov 18, 2019, 10:33:06 AM11/18/19
to
--
Wait, maybe that was a different ring.
I caught the last bit of "Die Walküre" on PBS yesterday. I'm sure real
Wagnerians don't sit there thinking "God, those people are assholes."
Peter Moylan
Nov 18, 2019, 11:00:38 AM11/18/19
to
On 18/11/19 07:14, Lewis wrote:
> I think google translate is getting rather good.
A recent discussion brought up the flamingo, known as the "flamant rose"
> I think google translate is getting rather good.
in French. Some people write this as "flamand rose" (pink Flemish
person), so I decided to check how this would translate into Dutch.
I accidentally chose English as the source language, and got "flamand
stond op" as the Dutch version of "flamand rose". You can probably guess
what that means even if you don't understand Dutch.
That was yesterday. Amazingly, the translation has since changed.
Peter Moylan
Nov 18, 2019, 11:06:24 AM11/18/19
to
tout le monde m'oppose. Mais, sans l'accentuation, cette phrase dit
simplement "je veux le faire".
Horace LaBadie
Nov 18, 2019, 11:45:23 AM11/18/19
to
In article <qqud8v$u86$1...@news.albasani.net>,
I am suggesting that Oscar, like everyone else who is an Anglophone,
learned the use of English in the environment of his home, and that the
English he learned was standard Queen's English. He was home-schooled
until age nine, and went to a Royal charter school (Portora) until
enrolling at Trinity. He also learned French and German at home. Are you
suggesting that the schools were lax in their standards?
learned the use of English in the environment of his home, and that the
English he learned was standard Queen's English. He was home-schooled
until age nine, and went to a Royal charter school (Portora) until
enrolling at Trinity. He also learned French and German at home. Are you
suggesting that the schools were lax in their standards?
Jerry Friedman
Nov 18, 2019, 10:21:08 PM11/18/19
to
words, he couldn't have acquired their use natively, strange as it may
seem. And if publishers and editors caused conflicts in his mind, then
he was already using the words in a non-Queen's-English way.
It seems perfectly possible that his parents' speech had Irish
qualities, including non-Queen's uses of shall/should/will/would, and
probable that that of his teachers and especially his peers at his Irish
school did too. It seems more than likely that any of his teachers who
tried to teach formal rules for those words didn't do a good job. H. W.
Fowler was the leading writer on English usage of a somewhat later time,
and Eric Walker has told us that even Fowler didn't explain it well.
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
Nov 18, 2019, 10:24:48 PM11/18/19
to
but you can't say, "I will do it, but I can't," can you? (You certainly
can't in my English, where "I shall" doesn't exist except as humor or
whimsy.)
--
Jerry Friedman
David Kleinecke
Nov 18, 2019, 11:33:18 PM11/18/19
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Horace LaBadie
Nov 19, 2019, 9:43:22 AM11/19/19
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In article <qqvn2v$9u4$1...@news.albasani.net>,
I suppose one could, if one wished, examine the recorded speech of Lady
Wilde from the court testimony that she gave in the libel trial brought
against Sir William and herself by Mary Traveres to see what confusion
see what Irishisms she employed.
Wilde from the court testimony that she gave in the libel trial brought
against Sir William and herself by Mary Traveres to see what confusion
see what Irishisms she employed.
Jerry Friedman
Nov 19, 2019, 2:46:27 PM11/19/19
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well-written, but I don't recognize any Irishisms, and she uses
"shall" in accordance with what I understand of the Queen's
English rules.
"Tower, Bray, May 6th.
"Sir, you may not be aware of the disreputable conduct of your
daughter at Bray where she consorts with all the low newspaper
boys in the place, employing them to disseminate offensive placards
in which my name is given, and also tracts in which she makes it
appear that she has had an intrigue with Sir William Wilde. If
she chooses to disgrace herself, it is not my affair, but as her
object in insulting me is in the hope of extorting money for
which she has several times applied to Sir William Wilde with
threats of more annoyance if not given, I think it right to inform
you, as no threat of additional insult shall ever extort money
from our hands. The wages of disgrace she has so basely treated
for and demanded shall never be given her."
The transcripts of how she talked to her children at home, how
Oscar and his schoolmates made fun of the masters at Portora,
etc., are harder to find.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
Nov 19, 2019, 6:36:37 PM11/19/19
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would have required "will" in that last sentence.
Horace LaBadie
Nov 19, 2019, 9:33:13 PM11/19/19
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In article <qr1ua1$gtc$1...@dont-email.me>,
That's actually legalese. "Shall never be given" appears to be quite
common in British Law. Google Books finds rather a lot of examples from
the 19th C and early 20th C.
common in British Law. Google Books finds rather a lot of examples from
the 19th C and early 20th C.
Katy Jennison
Nov 20, 2019, 2:08:44 AM11/20/19
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--
Katy Jennison
spuorg...@gowanhill.com
Nov 20, 2019, 3:26:40 AM11/20/19
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On Monday, 18 November 2019 16:00:38 UTC, Peter Moylan wrote:
> That was yesterday. Amazingly, the translation has since changed.
I wonder if Google Translate reads Google Groups?
> That was yesterday. Amazingly, the translation has since changed.
Owain
Bart Dinnissen
Nov 20, 2019, 9:38:53 AM11/20/19
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--
Bart Dinnissen
Madhu
Nov 20, 2019, 11:03:56 AM11/20/19
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* Bart Dinnissen <3ujate1i9pcgfi7q1...@4ax.com> :
Wrote on Wed, 20 Nov 2019 15:38:46 +0100:
Table lookup. Given that they know what everyone is asking you might be
happily amazed if your query matched what was already in the table -
they are old hands at tuning the results to the querier
(Was there a latin name for the table lookup algorithm? I've forgotten)
Wrote on Wed, 20 Nov 2019 15:38:46 +0100:
happily amazed if your query matched what was already in the table -
they are old hands at tuning the results to the querier
(Was there a latin name for the table lookup algorithm? I've forgotten)
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