Curious usage of "wide berth"
TOF
"latitude" "goodwill" "freedome to use his discretion" but in AusE,
this would mean "avoid". To give someone a wide berth would be to stay
out of their way.
I suppose staying out of Obama's way would be to avoid opposing him,
but it still doesn't sound like goodwill.
Is this a common usage in AmE?
|||
WASHINGTON (AFP) — Barack Obama has attained extraordinarily high
levels of public approval, according to opinion polls released Sunday,
ahead of his historic inauguration ceremony as the first African-
American president.
A survey conducted by The New York Times and CBS News found a US
public eager to give the president-elect a wide berth as he attempts
to turn around a faltering US economy, tackle global warming, help
solve the intractable Middle East peace process, along with a plethora
of other mammoth challenges.
|||
TOF
Jonathan Morton
news:55609bca-cf4b-4cef...@i24g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>The passage below seems to indicate it meaning something like
>"latitude" "goodwill" "freedome to use his discretion" but in AusE,
>this would mean "avoid". To give someone a wide berth would be to stay
>out of their way.
Yes, I would have expected "fair wind" rather than "wide berth".
Regards
Jonathan
Skitt
No, it is not common usage. The meaning in AmE is the same as in Oz. They
don't make journalists the way they used to, that's all.
--
Skitt, drawing from experiences in these places:
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/places.html
Prai Jei
> The passage below seems to indicate it meaning something like
> "latitude" "goodwill" "freedome to use his discretion" but in AusE,
> this would mean "avoid". To give someone a wide berth would be to stay
> out of their way.
>
> I suppose staying out of Obama's way would be to avoid opposing him,
> but it still doesn't sound like goodwill.
>
> Is this a common usage in AmE?
It has that usage (avoidance) in BrE also, coming from the image of a ship
loading or unloading a dangerous cargo where, for safety reasons, adjacent
berths would be taken out of use so that ship would have a "wide berth" to
itself.
The two quoted paragraphs contradict each other in their impression of the
public's opinion of Barak Obama. I can't really see what the expresion
ought to be or why these words might have been used. Was the writer somehow
unfamiliar with the significance of the expression to the extent of
thinking it meant "a large degree of discretion"?
--
ξ:) Proud to be curly
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
Jimmy
message news:5qKdnU7nboSoGO7U...@bt.com...
Yes, or even "plenty of leeway".
tony cooper
wrote:
>The passage below seems to indicate it meaning something like
>"latitude" "goodwill" "freedome to use his discretion" but in AusE,
>this would mean "avoid". To give someone a wide berth would be to stay
>out of their way.
>
>I suppose staying out of Obama's way would be to avoid opposing him,
>but it still doesn't sound like goodwill.
>
>Is this a common usage in AmE?
No. It seems as wrong to me as it does to you. The writer was
straining to make some allusion to the re-direction of the ship of
state and his prose sprung a leak.
>
>|||
>WASHINGTON (AFP) — Barack Obama has attained extraordinarily high
>levels of public approval, according to opinion polls released Sunday,
>ahead of his historic inauguration ceremony as the first African-
>American president.
>
>A survey conducted by The New York Times and CBS News found a US
>public eager to give the president-elect a wide berth as he attempts
>to turn around a faltering US economy, tackle global warming, help
>solve the intractable Middle East peace process, along with a plethora
>of other mammoth challenges.
>|||
>
>TOF
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
Maybe the author thought it was too much trouble to look up the
spelling of "free rein".
--
Jerry Friedman
James Hogg
Yes, that would be much better.
I just checked the online OED out of curiosity. Despite the fact
that it's dated 1989, it doesn't have "leeway" in that sense,
only in the original sense of "lateral drift of a ship to
leeward". There is no quotation more recent than 1884.
That seems like a curious omission.
COD 10 from 1999 has the technical term second, after the
definition "the amount of freedom to move or act that is
available", "margin of safety".
James
Barbara Bailey
08edde...@i24g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
No, it sounds odd to this American. As you say, to give someone a "wide
berth" is to avoid them, to stay well clear of them. I'm not sure that I
would even take "wide berth" as "stay out of the way of"; that's "to not
interfere, to allow them to work or progress unimpeded."
Barbara Bailey
Or "a lot of leeway".
John Varela
wrote:
> No, it is not common usage. The meaning in AmE is the same as in Oz. They
> don't make journalists the way they used to, that's all.
No kidding. Almost every day I find something wrong in The
Washington Post, supposedly one of the top 3 or 4 newspapers in the
country.
--
John Varela
Trade OLD lamps for NEW for email
Jimmy
news:ru57n49khndm75poj...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 11:28:55 -0800 (PST), TOF <Fran...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>The passage below seems to indicate it meaning something like
>>"latitude" "goodwill" "freedome to use his discretion" but in AusE,
>>this would mean "avoid". To give someone a wide berth would be to stay
>>out of their way.
>>
>>I suppose staying out of Obama's way would be to avoid opposing him,
>>but it still doesn't sound like goodwill.
>>
>>Is this a common usage in AmE?
>
> No. It seems as wrong to me as it does to you. The writer was
> straining to make some allusion to the re-direction of the ship of
> state and his prose sprung a leak.
<applause>
I wondered where he dredged the phrase up.
Lew
It was a titanic mistake.
--
Lew
TOF
> On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 11:28:55 -0800 (PST), TOF <Fran.B...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >The passage below seems to indicate it meaning something like
> >"latitude" "goodwill" "freedome to use his discretion" but in AusE,
> >this would mean "avoid". To give someone a wide berth would be to stay
> >out of their way.
>
> >I suppose staying out of Obama's way would be to avoid opposing him,
> >but it still doesn't sound like goodwill.
>
> >Is this a common usage in AmE?
>
> No. It seems as wrong to me as it does to you. The writer was
> straining to make some allusion to the re-direction of the ship of
> state and his prose sprung a leak.
>
>
Indeed, and although there's nothing particularly eccentric about "a
plethora of other mammoth challenges", it's inelegant metaphor in my
opinion.
TOF
R H Draney
>
>Indeed, and although there's nothing particularly eccentric about "a
>plethora of other mammoth challenges", it's inelegant metaphor in my
>opinion.
Say, what *is* the non-metaphorical meaning of "plethora", anyway?...I'm in the
habit of telling people it's Greek for "shitload"....r
--
"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"
TOF
> TOF filted:
>
>
>
> >Indeed, and although there's nothing particularly eccentric about "a
> >plethora of other mammoth challenges", it's inelegant metaphor in my
> >opinion.
>
> Say, what *is* the non-metaphorical meaning of "plethora", anyway?...I'm in the
> habit of telling people it's Greek for "shitload"....r
>
Truly, thy cup runneth over ... ;-)
It's used in medical settings for an excess of body fluids. From
memory, the original Greek is about "fullness".
I was more troubled by the use of "mammoth". Is the person saying the
challenges are large or extinct? How do mammoths connect with ships
and overfull blood vessels?
OK ... I'm being facetious, but really ... could the journo not have
said "and a great number of significant problems" and improved
thereby?
TOF
@nospam.net bayskater
"Jimmy" <notv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:gl0d3o$3sq$1...@news.motzarella.org...
I find it to be a familiar phrase, meaning "give him some space" or "cut him
some slack".
The opposite of "keep him on a short leash".
Fred
>
tony cooper
wrote:
>On Jan 19, 3:28 pm, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
He could have continued the nautical theme and said that Obama has a
shipload of problems to navigate through.
TOF
> On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 20:55:13 -0800 (PST), TOF <Fran.B...@gmail.com>
That kind of language would be too nautical for the WPs house style.
He could get into a shipload of trouble for uttering it, especially if
he's discussing the soon to be inaugurated head of the ship of state.
It is possible to sail to close to the wind and end up deep sixed like
Icarus.
TOF
R H Draney
That's not a tack I'd recommend....r
Chuck Riggs
"Wide berth" isn't bad, but an improvement, while remaining in the
nautical vein, might be "they're willing to give him a lot of leeway".
--
Regards,
Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
>On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:59:32 UTC, "Skitt" <ski...@comcast.net>
>wrote:
>
>> No, it is not common usage. The meaning in AmE is the same as in Oz. They
>> don't make journalists the way they used to, that's all.
>
>No kidding. Almost every day I find something wrong in The
>Washington Post, supposedly one of the top 3 or 4 newspapers in the
>country.
If that is all there are, and the errors are minor ones, I'd say the
paper continues to excel. I read it almost daily and consider it and
the New York Times to be the two best newspapers in the country. My
other favourites, which I also read regularly, are the Irish
Independent and The Economist, but I'm sure neither is error-free.
Life doesn't work that way.
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
>TOF filted:
>>
>>Indeed, and although there's nothing particularly eccentric about "a
>>plethora of other mammoth challenges", it's inelegant metaphor in my
>>opinion.
>
>Say, what *is* the non-metaphorical meaning of "plethora", anyway?...I'm in the
>habit of telling people it's Greek for "shitload"....r
That's because Plethora, or somebody, had a bunch of snakes for hair.
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
>On Jan 19, 3:28 pm, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>> TOF filted:
>>
>>
>>
>> >Indeed, and although there's nothing particularly eccentric about "a
>> >plethora of other mammoth challenges", it's inelegant metaphor in my
>> >opinion.
>>
>> Say, what *is* the non-metaphorical meaning of "plethora", anyway?...I'm in the
>> habit of telling people it's Greek for "shitload"....r
>>
>
>Truly, thy cup runneth over ... ;-)
>
>It's used in medical settings for an excess of body fluids. From
>memory, the original Greek is about "fullness".
>
>I was more troubled by the use of "mammoth". Is the person saying the
>challenges are large or extinct? How do mammoths connect with ships
>and overfull blood vessels?
That one hit me between the eyes, as well. Even the plebian "big"
would have been a better choice.
>OK ... I'm being facetious, but really ... could the journo not have
>said "and a great number of significant problems" and improved
>thereby?
>
>TOF
--
LFS
Medusa, shirley?
Talking of horrible sights, at the cinema yesterday we saw an advert
warning about medicines purchased over the internet, which apparently
can contain rat poison. It featured a man swallowing a pill and then
pulling a rat out of his mouth, tail first. It was so shockingly far
from the normal cinema advert that I thought for a moment that it might
have been a spoof.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Chuck Riggs
Too cute.
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
>On Jan 19, 4:41 pm, tony cooper <tony_cooper...@earthlink.net> wrote:
You can "deep six" an old anchor, for example, that no longer
functions, but when a person or a god drowns at sea, I don't think you
can call that being "deep sixed". He or she did go to Davy Jones'
Locker, though.
Chuck Riggs
If a ship's captain is giving a neighbouring ship a wide berth, he is,
by definition, staying well clear of her.
Leslie Danks
[...]
>
> Talking of horrible sights, at the cinema yesterday we saw an advert
> warning about medicines purchased over the internet, which apparently
> can contain rat poison. It featured a man swallowing a pill and then
> pulling a rat out of his mouth, tail first. It was so shockingly far
> from the normal cinema advert that I thought for a moment that it might
> have been a spoof.
Warfarin is a chemical originally developed as a rat poison and subsequently
found to inhibit coagulation of the blood (clotting). This is also the mode
of action, the rat dying from internal haemorrhage. Since then, it has
been used in patients at risk of developing thromboses -- blood clots in
the blood stream which may initiate a stroke.
If you're on warfarin, you're on rat poison, regardless of whether you were
prescribed it by your GP or bought it over the Internet. The advert is
presumably part of a range war between "respectable" suppliers and those
who send cut-price rat poison around the world in plain brown wrapping in
response to on-line orders.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warfarin>
--
Les (BrE)
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:01:10 -0000, "Jimmy"
> <notv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>>"Jonathan Morton" <jona...@jonathanmortonbutignorethisbit.co.uk> wrote
>>> "TOF" <Fran...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>The passage below seems to indicate it meaning something like
>>>>"latitude" "goodwill" "freedome to use his discretion" but in
>>>>AusE, this would mean "avoid". To give someone a wide berth would
>>>>be to stay out of their way.
>>>
>>> Yes, I would have expected "fair wind" rather than "wide berth".
>>>
>>
>>Yes, or even "plenty of leeway".
>
> Yes, that would be much better.
>
> I just checked the online OED out of curiosity. Despite the fact
> that it's dated 1989, it doesn't have "leeway" in that sense, only
> in the original sense of "lateral drift of a ship to leeward". There
> is no quotation more recent than 1884. That seems like a curious
> omission.
>
> COD 10 from 1999 has the technical term second, after the definition
> "the amount of freedom to move or act that is available", "margin of
> safety".
[Attn Jesse Sheidlower: OED antedating]
The figurative sense appears to go back at least to the middle of the
nineteenth century. (Sorry for all the quotes; I was working backward
and kept uncovering earlier ones.)
... while, as relates to what may yet be established, though now
it is but experimental, or what may be discovered, of which now
nobody dreams, the calculations in question have apparently left
no leeway for the ingenuity of our successors, or even our
contemporaries.
_The Quarterly Review_, June/Oct, 1838
There is, after all the advantages from the powers of these
boilers to resist intense pressure, a serious objection to their
use; the flues occupy so large a space of the internal portion of
them, that is difficult to keep over the flue a proper head of
water, affording the engineer but little "leeway" in case of
accident or want of care, a slight inclination of the boat, from
the changing position of the passengers or freight, throwing a
bare flue upon the highest side.
_Journal of the Franklin Institute_, 1852
I was forced to the adoption of the rule: "Earn before you eat."
I could have wished for a little leeway, but I had none.
Richard B. Kimball, _Undercurrents of Wall
Street_, 1862
Now, our figures have given nearly that size, and worked
mathematically close, and giving a little leeway, our hive will
hold about a bushel.
_American Bee Journal_, 9/1870
Moreover, Mr. Hill avoids the common mistake of trying to bind all
language by a hard an pact [sic] rule; speakers and writers are
given a certain amount of leeway, and pedantry is as carefully
shunned as slovenliness.
_Atlantic Monthly_, 11/1878
"To any considerable value," left a wide leeway and margin, as a
concession to the Indian's natural propensity.
Sarah Loring Baily, _Historical Sketches of
Andover_, 1880
When such time limit is kept, in the usual manenr, said limit
shall be calculated by average at the close of each game, and a
leeway of five minutes shall be allowed for possible mistakes in
noting time on each game.
_Brooklyn Chess Chronicle_, 12/15/1883
My own plan is to keep one or two or three thousand dollars
leeway; not to expend the appropriation within two or three
thousand dollars, if I can arrange it, so as to have money in the
treasury to meet any unexpected demand which may call for
additional labor or skill in doing the work.
Massachusetts Board of Agriculture, 1884
In the great amount of rich land that is yet to be redeemed, and
in the wide leeway that exists for improved and economical
farming, we are able to clearly see a noble, a splendid future for
Chicago.
Julian Ralph, "The Capitals of the Northwest",
_Harper's New Monthly Magazine_, March, 1892
The limited freedom accorded to some of the more responsible
workers in no wise disturbed the grand unity of the design. Small
variations in minor matters, more or less ornamentation, even the
number and size of the inferior parts of the structures,
equivalent in their amounts of strength and sustenqance given to
the general mechanism, could afford to settle themselves, with
some leeway left to individual choice.
The Maker of the Universe has allowed an ample leeway to his
intelligent workment; yet the vast design is becoming more and
more apparent in its co-ordinated unity.
Antoinette Brown Blackwell, _The Philosophy of
Individuality_, 1893
... the only reason we had for suggesting an increased size of
wheel seat was to give a bigger leeway in refitting axles to new
wheels. The existing standards only give 1/8 inch leeway, and it
was the opinion of our committee that there ought to be 1/4 leeway
between the original size ofthe wheel seat and the limiting size.
Proceedings of the Western Railway Club, 1901
There also seems to another early figurative sense of "having leeway
to make up" or "making up leeway", e.g.
The University of Oxford has a long leeway to make up, and must
put forth no common efforts to rescure herself from the disgrace
of having spawned this fell apostasy--the most disreputable that
has occurred since the days of her martyrs.
_The British Protestant_, November, 1845
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Marge: You liked Rashomon.
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Homer: That's not how *I* remember
Palo Alto, CA 94304 | it.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
...
> Talking of horrible sights, at the cinema yesterday we saw an advert
> warning about medicines purchased over the internet, which apparently
> can contain rat poison. It featured a man swallowing a pill and then
> pulling a rat out of his mouth, tail first. It was so shockingly far
> from the normal cinema advert that I thought for a moment that it might
> have been a spoof.
Was the rat dead? If you had a live rat in your GI tract and wanted
to kill it...
(Yes, Les probably has the explanation.)
--
Jerry Friedman
Pat Durkin
"Leslie Danks" <leslie...@aon.at> wrote in message
news:4974ba51$0$2632$91ce...@newsreader01.highway.telekom.at...
"Rat's and mice will disappear,
for it's d-CON that they fear.
They'll be gone,
Passed away.
Ask for d-CON today."
It really sounds as though the commercial were made for PETA. I live in
a row-house, and we have the occasional December-to-February infestation
of voles. When I advocate for d-CON, I don't use the jingle, because
one time I did explain that the product kills the mice (and the mouse
mothers, after grooming themselves, spread the poison on to their hair,
and thus to other adult mice, in addition to their young through the
milk). Some people will insist on live trapping. I don't know where
they dispose of the poor mice. Out into the cold? Of course, others
remove the mice live from the traps, and then mercifully drown them in
the toilets.
I have the d-CON liberally placed in my pantry, but haven't seen any
sign of feasting. Maybe my neighbor stopped amassing cat-food in his
pantry, which shares a mutual wall.
Maybe I should get a cat and let that take care of my mouse problem.
The added bonus from having a cat is the almost 100% prevention of
spider webs. It is fun to watch a cat "crawl the walls" hunting baby
spiders.
Mike Lyle
I'd lose those scare quotes. The dosage needs careful and constant
monitoring, and in some cases frequent adjustment: you'd be insane to
buy it over the Internet and self-medicate. I think my mother has hers
checked--in the hospital--every month.
Of course, Warfarin may simply be used as an example in an ad targeted
more widely at www drug sales. Under British conditions, of course,
there's less often an incentive to buy prescription drugs unofficially:
younger and older patients get them free of charge on the NHS, and
proper prescribing and follow-up may be thought worth having for most of
the rest.
--
Mike.
R H Draney
>>habit of telling people it's Greek for "shitload"....r
>
>That's because Plethora, or somebody, had a bunch of snakes for hair.
There's someone named "Plethora" mentioned in this Rod McKuen spoof, but the
accent's on the penultimate:
http://media.putfile.com/In-Someones-Sneakers
I think the speaker is Harry Shearer....r
R H Draney
>
>It really sounds as though the commercial were made for PETA. I live in
>a row-house, and we have the occasional December-to-February infestation
>of voles. When I advocate for d-CON, I don't use the jingle, because
>one time I did explain that the product kills the mice (and the mouse
>mothers, after grooming themselves, spread the poison on to their hair,
>and thus to other adult mice, in addition to their young through the
>milk). Some people will insist on live trapping. I don't know where
>they dispose of the poor mice. Out into the cold? Of course, others
>remove the mice live from the traps, and then mercifully drown them in
>the toilets.
You give them to your friend's pet ball pythons, innit?...r
Nick Spalding
on Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:07:23 -0000:
I was on it for about six months following a minor pulmonary embolism
event. For the first couple of months I had to go for a check every two
weeks, then every month. Finally I was told just to use the low dose
aspirin.
> Of course, Warfarin may simply be used as an example in an ad targeted
> more widely at www drug sales. Under British conditions, of course,
> there's less often an incentive to buy prescription drugs unofficially:
> younger and older patients get them free of charge on the NHS, and
> proper prescribing and follow-up may be thought worth having for most of
> the rest.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
Donna Richoux
[snip discussion of "A survey conducted by The New York Times and CBS
News found a US public eager to give the president-elect a wide berth as
he attempts to turn around a faltering US economy, tackle global
warming..."]
> I find it to be a familiar phrase, meaning "give him some space" or "cut him
> some slack".
> The opposite of "keep him on a short leash".
>
That would be a recent shift in meaning, then, because the traditional
meaning is "to stay away from, to avoid." Not just "give some space" for
noble reasons but for one's own safety and well-being.
Can you possibly point to examples of anyone using the phrase in the way
you say -- if possible edited publications like newspapers, but mere
Internet chat would do. So far what I've seen through Google is the
usual sense, but I think the one you describe may well exist.
One hint is this entry for a No Preview book at Google, which appears to
deal with metaphors that change their meanings, which is what this would
be:
Loose Cannons, Red Herrings, and Other Lost Metaphors
by Robert Claiborne - Language Arts & Disciplines -
2001 - 254 pages Page 111
If you found yourself in
harbor with a suspicious-looking ship, you made sure
to anchor well away from her -- give her a wide berth.
Whence the wide berth we ...
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Leslie Danks
> Leslie Danks wrote:
[...]
>> If you're on warfarin, you're on rat poison, regardless of whether
>> you were prescribed it by your GP or bought it over the Internet. The
>> advert is presumably part of a range war between "respectable"
>> suppliers and those who send cut-price rat poison around the world in
>> plain brown wrapping in response to on-line orders.
>>
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warfarin>
>
> I'd lose those scare quotes.
AFAIK most of the drugs bought more cheaply over the Internet are identical
to those acquired by the normal route (though I haven't checked and don't
buy my drugs over the Internet). I believe the main difference is in the
mark-up -- but maybe someone here knows better.
> The dosage needs careful and constant
> monitoring, and in some cases frequent adjustment: you'd be insane to
> buy it over the Internet and self-medicate. I think my mother has hers
> checked--in the hospital--every month.
I have to take an anticoagulant, which is not actually warfarin but a
related substance with the same mechanism of action. The health insurance
body I belong to here in Austria has an arrangement with Merck, who supply
the drug. Patients who will be on the stuff for the rest of their lives and
who can convince their GP that they can cope, are provided (free of charge)
with a device for monitoring themselves. It's not rocket science and it
saves me having to visit my GP regularly to give a blood sample.
>
> Of course, Warfarin may simply be used as an example in an ad targeted
> more widely at www drug sales.
I suspect you're rigt; as you say, anticoagulant drugs are not a very
obvious choice for self-medication (though not as daft as treating yourself
with cytotoxics).
> Under British conditions, of course,
> there's less often an incentive to buy prescription drugs unofficially:
> younger and older patients get them free of charge on the NHS, and
> proper prescribing and follow-up may be thought worth having for most of
> the rest.
In Austria, too, generic drugs are being pushed by the health insurance
bodies and the government as a means of saving health costs. I'm not
up-to-date on how far this is compulsory, but it's meeting with the usual
resistance from some doctors and their representatives -- "Generic drugs
are not the same!" (in other words "How will I get to dive in the Red Sea
if XYZ Pharma stops organising its further training seminars down there?")
--
Les (BrE)
Wot, me cynical?
Garrett Wollman
Leslie Danks <leslie...@aon.at> wrote:
>In Austria, too, generic drugs are being pushed by the health insurance
>bodies and the government as a means of saving health costs. I'm not
>up-to-date on how far this is compulsory, but it's meeting with the usual
>resistance from some doctors and their representatives
In most if not all U.S. states, pharmacists are required by law to
dispense a generic if available, regardless of whether the script is
written for the generic or for the brand name, unless the practitioner
makes some mark on the script indicating that the brand-name drug is
required. (Here, the mark is specified by law as the words "NO
SUBSTITUTION".) This has the effect of defeating one of the ways drug
companies have used to steer doctors into prescribing their expensive
branded products, by supplying them with free prescription pads
already made out for a particular drug.
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wol...@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
Pat Durkin
news:gl2qp...@drn.newsguy.com
> Pat Durkin filted:
>>
>> It really sounds as though the commercial were made for PETA. I
>> live in a row-house, and we have the occasional December-to-February
>> infestation of voles. When I advocate for d-CON, I don't use the
>> jingle, because one time I did explain that the product kills the
>> mice (and the mouse mothers, after grooming themselves, spread the
>> poison on to their hair, and thus to other adult mice, in addition
>> to their young through the milk). Some people will insist on live
>> trapping. I don't know where they dispose of the poor mice. Out
>> into the cold? Of course, others remove the mice live from the
>> traps, and then mercifully drown them in the toilets.
>
> You give them to your friend's pet ball pythons, innit?...r
Oh, not likely. The advantage, I have found, is that the mice "go
away". Maybe time travel? Anyway, no disposal is necessary. I wonder
if they die in their little tunnels and subsequent mice using the same
tunnels consume their flesh and also "go away" and die.
I just recalled the chemical name for Warfarin*: coumadin. That is the
name some users employ.
I think Wis. Alumni Research Foundation found a gold mine. That product
is very old, now, and still in common use.
TOF
> In article <49750517$0$21352$91cee...@newsreader01.highway.telekom.at>,
> Leslie Danks <leslie.da...@aon.at> wrote:
>
> >In Austria, too, generic drugs are being pushed by the health insurance
> >bodies and the government as a means of saving health costs. I'm not
> >up-to-date on how far this is compulsory, but it's meeting with the usual
> >resistance from some doctors and their representatives
>
> In most if not all U.S. states, pharmacists are required by law to
> dispense a generic if available, regardless of whether the script is
> written for the generic or for the brand name, unless the practitioner
> makes some mark on the script indicating that the brand-name drug is
> required. (Here, the mark is specified by law as the words "NO
> SUBSTITUTION".) This has the effect of defeating one of the ways drug
> companies have used to steer doctors into prescribing their expensive
> branded products, by supplying them with free prescription pads
> already made out for a particular drug.
>
In Australia, pharmacists must *offer* a generic if available.
TOF
@nospam.net bayskater
"Donna Richoux" <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote in message
news:1ittaco.3bxets1yztcjmN%tr...@euronet.nl...
Hi Donna,
Mostly it's just from things I've heard people say , but I find a possible
example at this site:
http://news.muckety.com/2008/10/02/dannehy-given-wide-berth-in-investigation-of-us-attorney-firings/5382
Dannehy given wide berth in investigation of U.S. attorney firings
Noreen Malone notes in Slate that, in her new role, Dannehy technically won't
have the titles of "special prosecutor" or "independent counsel" because she
comes from within the Department of Justice and ultimately reports to
Mukasey.
"However, the department has stated that she has the authority to go in any
direction her investigation leads her."
I take this to mean something like "cutting her some slack" and her not
being on "a short leash".
That may indicate that "a US public eager to give the president-elect
freedom to act in whatever way he sees fit to turn the economy around..
etc.."
Perhaps I'm reading something into that based on my own preconceived view of
the expression.
Thanks, ... Fred
>
tony cooper
(Garrett Wollman) wrote:
>In article <49750517$0$21352$91ce...@newsreader01.highway.telekom.at>,
>Leslie Danks <leslie...@aon.at> wrote:
>
>>In Austria, too, generic drugs are being pushed by the health insurance
>>bodies and the government as a means of saving health costs. I'm not
>>up-to-date on how far this is compulsory, but it's meeting with the usual
>>resistance from some doctors and their representatives
>
>In most if not all U.S. states, pharmacists are required by law to
>dispense a generic if available, regardless of whether the script is
>written for the generic or for the brand name,
Is the law that they must dispense a generic if available or that they
must *offer* a generic if available? It seems to me that the last
time this came up for me, the pharmacist asked if I would accept a
generic. This implies that a generic was available but he was not
required to dispense it.
> unless the practitioner
>makes some mark on the script indicating that the brand-name drug is
>required. (Here, the mark is specified by law as the words "NO
>SUBSTITUTION".) This has the effect of defeating one of the ways drug
>companies have used to steer doctors into prescribing their expensive
>branded products, by supplying them with free prescription pads
>already made out for a particular drug.
>
>-GAWollman
--
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> "R H Draney" <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote in messagenews:gl2qp...@drn.newsguy.com
>
> > Pat Durkin filted:
>
> >> It really sounds as though the commercial were made for PETA. I
> >> live in a row-house, and we have the occasional December-to-February
> >> infestation of voles. When I advocate for d-CON, I don't use the
> >> jingle, because one time I did explain that the product kills the
> >> mice (and the mouse mothers, after grooming themselves, spread the
> >> poison on to their hair, and thus to other adult mice, in addition
> >> to their young through the milk). Some people will insist on live
> >> trapping. I don't know where they dispose of the poor mice. Out
> >> into the cold?
Mice can live fine out in the cold. Or they might get caught by some
animal, which may be a more constructive use than disappearing into
the walls of your house.
> >> Of course, others remove the mice live from the
> >> traps, and then mercifully drown them in the toilets.
Which is more cruel, trapping a mouse and flushing it down the toilet,
or killing it with an anticoagulant? I'll have to get back to you on
that.
> > You give them to your friend's pet ball pythons, innit?...r
>
> Oh, not likely.
Speaking in general, I think it's fairly likely.
> The advantage, I have found, is that the mice "go
> away". Maybe time travel?
A story by Avram Davidson may be relevant here. Brian "Default User"
will know what I mean. (But was the first man he killed named "Brian"
or "Default"?)
> Anyway, no disposal is necessary. I wonder
> if they die in their little tunnels and subsequent mice using the same
> tunnels consume their flesh and also "go away" and die.
Mice can definitely be cannibals.
> I just recalled the chemical name for Warfarin*: coumadin. That is the
> name some users employ.
According to <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warfarin>, "coumadin" is a
brand name. Warfarin is a derivative of coumarin with an R; WP
doesn't give a trivial name for it other than "warfarin".
I for one am inescapably reminded of David Brin's sf novel /
Sundiver/! I like it! But some criticize it for overusing
exclamation points in dialogue!
> I think Wis. Alumni Research Foundation
I didn't know that.
> found a gold mine. That product is very old, now, and still in common use.
I wonder whether they're still collecting on it.
--
Jerry Friedman
Garrett Wollman
tony cooper <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> [I wrote:]
>>In most if not all U.S. states, pharmacists are required by law to
>>dispense a generic if available, regardless of whether the script is
>>written for the generic or for the brand name,
>
>Is the law that they must dispense a generic if available or that they
>must *offer* a generic if available?
Like so many things, it appears to vary from state to state.
tony cooper
>On Jan 19, 8:27 pm, "Pat Durkin" <durk...@sbc.com> wrote:
>> "R H Draney" <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote in messagenews:gl2qp...@drn.newsguy.com
>>
>> > Pat Durkin filted:
>>
>> >> It really sounds as though the commercial were made for PETA. I
>> >> live in a row-house, and we have the occasional December-to-February
>> >> infestation of voles. When I advocate for d-CON, I don't use the
>> >> jingle, because one time I did explain that the product kills the
>> >> mice (and the mouse mothers, after grooming themselves, spread the
>> >> poison on to their hair, and thus to other adult mice, in addition
>> >> to their young through the milk). Some people will insist on live
>> >> trapping. I don't know where they dispose of the poor mice. Out
>> >> into the cold?
>
>Mice can live fine out in the cold. Or they might get caught by some
>animal, which may be a more constructive use than disappearing into
>the walls of your house.
Florida mice are spoiled, I guess. Come cold weather, and in come
the mice. (The temperature has plummeted clear down to the mid-50s
recently. That's fahrenheit.) Happens every year.
I just spent $210 to have our dishwasher repaired. The mice made
their home under the dishwasher and chewed through the tubes that
provide the water and drain out the water. I would have put out tiny
bowls of water had I known they were that thirsty.
I also spent an additional $20 on material to put a new floor in the
sink cabinet next to the dishwasher because I had to rip out the old
floor due to water damage. Then there was the cost of the new blade
for the circular saw to cut the new flooring, and the cost of the
power screw driver I bought when I purchased the flooring material.
(I didn't use the power screw driver on this project, but it was on
sale and I wanted it. Hadn't been for the mice, I wouldn't have seen
it.)
I caught two mice in traps. Snapped the little bastard's necks, they
did. No sympathy from me.
How do I know that the mouse population was limited to two? One
killed without mercy the first night, and the second executed the
second night. No action on three subsequent nights, but - for all I
know - there are more mice biding their time and hoping that I'll stop
setting traps.
The traps were baited with peanut butter. That may have been double
jeopardy. The newspapers say that peanut butter may be contaminated
with salmonella. If the mice are careless, they die instantly, but if
they steal the bait without setting off the trap they may die of food
poisoning.
Oh, yeah...I put a deep gouge in a finger ripping out the sink floor.
Staple got me.
R H Draney
>
>In most if not all U.S. states, pharmacists are required by law to
>dispense a generic if available, regardless of whether the script is
>written for the generic or for the brand name, unless the practitioner
>makes some mark on the script indicating that the brand-name drug is
>required. (Here, the mark is specified by law as the words "NO
>SUBSTITUTION".) This has the effect of defeating one of the ways drug
>companies have used to steer doctors into prescribing their expensive
>branded products, by supplying them with free prescription pads
>already made out for a particular drug.
On all the prescription blanks I've seen over the last ten years, the doctor is
given two signature lines, one indicating "dispense as written" and the other
"generic drug may be substituted"...I'll have to ask my niece about the
likelihood of a pharmacist disregarding either instruction....r
Garrett Wollman
R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>On all the prescription blanks I've seen over the last ten years, the doctor is
>given two signature lines, one indicating "dispense as written" and the other
>"generic drug may be substituted"...I'll have to ask my niece about the
>likelihood of a pharmacist disregarding either instruction....r
On all the prescription blanks I've seen over the last ten years, the
signature line is followed by the instructions 'Interchange is
mandated unless the practitioner writes "NO SUBSTITUTION" in the space
below.' The form of a prescription blank is defined by the State
Board of Pharmacy or equivalent body, so they obviously differ. Your
state has not chosen to "nudge" practitioners quite so strongly in the
direction of generics.
tony cooper
(Garrett Wollman) wrote:
>In article <gl3qg...@drn.newsguy.com>,
>R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>>On all the prescription blanks I've seen over the last ten years, the doctor is
>>given two signature lines, one indicating "dispense as written" and the other
>>"generic drug may be substituted"...I'll have to ask my niece about the
>>likelihood of a pharmacist disregarding either instruction....r
>
>On all the prescription blanks I've seen over the last ten years, the
>signature line is followed by the instructions 'Interchange is
>mandated unless the practitioner writes "NO SUBSTITUTION" in the space
>below.' The form of a prescription blank is defined by the State
>Board of Pharmacy or equivalent body, so they obviously differ. Your
>state has not chosen to "nudge" practitioners quite so strongly in the
>direction of generics.
>
I happen to have an unfilled prescription blank for a strong pain
killer. I was given the prescription, but felt that I could manage
without it.
There is no notation of any kind about filling it with a generic or
non-generic.
Chuck Riggs
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>Chuck Riggs wrote:
>> On 18 Jan 2009 20:28:33 -0800, R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> TOF filted:
>>>> Indeed, and although there's nothing particularly eccentric about "a
>>>> plethora of other mammoth challenges", it's inelegant metaphor in my
>>>> opinion.
>>> Say, what *is* the non-metaphorical meaning of "plethora", anyway?...I'm in the
>>> habit of telling people it's Greek for "shitload"....r
>>
>> That's because Plethora, or somebody, had a bunch of snakes for hair.
>
>Medusa, shirley?
Our old friend Shirley, too?
>Talking of horrible sights, at the cinema yesterday we saw an advert
>warning about medicines purchased over the internet, which apparently
>can contain rat poison. It featured a man swallowing a pill and then
>pulling a rat out of his mouth, tail first. It was so shockingly far
>from the normal cinema advert that I thought for a moment that it might
>have been a spoof.
Do you now think it wasn't? BTW, you Economisted "Internet".
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
Instead of rat poison, my doctor uses Aspirin and Plavix to thin my
blood:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clopidogrel
Chuck Riggs
<snip>
>Which is more cruel, trapping a mouse and flushing it down the toilet,
>or killing it with an anticoagulant? I'll have to get back to you on
>that.
I'd take my chances on the sewers.
<snip>
Chuck Riggs
ObAUE: I won't ask how careful hospitals are, since that isn't an
English point, but how "constant" is once a month?
>Of course, Warfarin may simply be used as an example in an ad targeted
>more widely at www drug sales. Under British conditions, of course,
>there's less often an incentive to buy prescription drugs unofficially:
>younger and older patients get them free of charge on the NHS, and
>proper prescribing and follow-up may be thought worth having for most of
>the rest.
Most Americans have to pay for their drugs and drugs tend to be unduly
expensive there, partially because of the big drug lobby groups. Do
you think the British and Irish populations are over-medicated because
they don't have to pay for their drugs?
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
<snip>
>In Austria, too, generic drugs are being pushed by the health insurance
>bodies and the government as a means of saving health costs. I'm not
>up-to-date on how far this is compulsory, but it's meeting with the usual
>resistance from some doctors and their representatives -- "Generic drugs
>are not the same!" (in other words "How will I get to dive in the Red Sea
>if XYZ Pharma stops organising its further training seminars down there?")
Austria and America have more in common, I see, than having the same
initial and final letters.
Leslie Danks
[...]
> Instead of rat poison, my doctor uses Aspirin and Plavix to thin my
> blood:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clopidogrel
Pet peeve: "thin the blood"
Anti-coagulants, of whatever type, do not "thin the blood" but inhibit the
clotting process. Other things being equal, the blood from someone on
anti-coagulant therapy is no thinner than the blood from someone not on
anti-coagulant therapy. It just clots more slowly, the difference depending
on the degree of medication. Here (and I presume elsewhere), patients on
anti-coagulant therapy carry a card indicating the fact and giving details
of the type and quantity of anti-coagulant taken. This ensures that in the
event of serious injury they can be given the right antidote to prevent
them from bleeding to death.
--
Les (BrE)
Chuck Riggs
(Garrett Wollman) wrote:
>In article <49750517$0$21352$91ce...@newsreader01.highway.telekom.at>,
>Leslie Danks <leslie...@aon.at> wrote:
>
>>In Austria, too, generic drugs are being pushed by the health insurance
>>bodies and the government as a means of saving health costs. I'm not
>>up-to-date on how far this is compulsory, but it's meeting with the usual
>>resistance from some doctors and their representatives
>
>In most if not all U.S. states, pharmacists are required by law to
>dispense a generic if available, regardless of whether the script is
>written for the generic or for the brand name, unless the practitioner
>makes some mark on the script indicating that the brand-name drug is
>required. (Here, the mark is specified by law as the words "NO
>SUBSTITUTION".) This has the effect of defeating one of the ways drug
>companies have used to steer doctors into prescribing their expensive
>branded products, by supplying them with free prescription pads
>already made out for a particular drug.
How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy,
abbreviation, "script", for prescription? I've never noticed it
before, although I see it made it to the COD10, as "informal: a
doctor's prescription". I don't see it in my edition of
Merriam-Webster's Collegiate, but the OED has for it: "Slang (orig.
U.S.) Shortened form of prescription, esp one for narcotic drugs." Do
many Americans use "script" this way or in the way Garrett used it?
Mike Lyle
Brit doctors simply look it up in the book and write the generic name if
they want to. Strikes me as a better way of doing it, as it leaves the
physician in control.
--
Mike.
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
>Chuck Riggs filted:
>>
>>On 18 Jan 2009 20:28:33 -0800, R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net>
>>wrote:
>>>
>>>Say, what *is* the non-metaphorical meaning of "plethora", anyway?...I'm in the
>>>habit of telling people it's Greek for "shitload"....r
>>
>>That's because Plethora, or somebody, had a bunch of snakes for hair.
>
>There's someone named "Plethora" mentioned in this Rod McKuen spoof, but the
>accent's on the penultimate:
>
> http://media.putfile.com/In-Someones-Sneakers
>
>I think the speaker is Harry Shearer....r
Someone must have seen me coming, for I got a whole lot of nothing
when clicking on the above.
Mike Lyle
> On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:07:23 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
>> I'd lose those scare quotes. The dosage needs careful and constant
>> monitoring, and in some cases frequent adjustment: you'd be insane to
>> buy it over the Internet and self-medicate. I think my mother has
>> hers checked--in the hospital--every month.
>
> ObAUE: I won't ask how careful hospitals are, since that isn't an
> English point, but how "constant" is once a month?
Hmm. Interesting point, now you draw my attention to it. I suspect it's
probably another relative term, but "regular" may be better...
>
>> Of course, Warfarin may simply be used as an example in an ad
>> targeted more widely at www drug sales. Under British conditions, of
>> course, there's less often an incentive to buy prescription drugs
>> unofficially: younger and older patients get them free of charge on
>> the NHS, and proper prescribing and follow-up may be thought worth
>> having for most of the rest.
>
> Most Americans have to pay for their drugs and drugs tend to be unduly
> expensive there, partially because of the big drug lobby groups. Do
> you think the British and Irish populations are over-medicated because
> they don't have to pay for their drugs?
My impression is that some drugs /are/ over-prescribed here, but that on
the whole the non-NHS systems seem to result in over-treatment. I
believe British and Irish doctors are pretty responsible when it comes
to spending public money, and there are some limiting rules.
--
Mike.
Pat Durkin
news:gl3o17$19fc$1...@grapevine.csail.mit.edu
> In article <1ujan41teuqr2nsvb...@4ax.com>,
> tony cooper <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> [I wrote:]
>>> In most if not all U.S. states, pharmacists are required by law to
>>> dispense a generic if available, regardless of whether the script is
>>> written for the generic or for the brand name,
>>
>> Is the law that they must dispense a generic if available or that
>> they must *offer* a generic if available?
>
> Like so many things, it appears to vary from state to state.
>
Correct. For instance, in WI, if the physician is not aware of the
existence of a generic, (or if he does not know the financial state of
the patient*) then he will not prescribe it. In a number of cases, I
have asked my physician to please prescribe generic. In one case, while
widespread use of the generic name was publicly known, the patent had
not yet run out. The manufacturer was granted an extension so a "new
and improved" or "extended" version could get approval. After that
approval was effective, then the basic generic was approved. A friend,
upon discussing his prescription with the pharmacist, asked the
pharmacist to call the prescribing physician to notify him of the
existence and availability of the generic product.
I think most physicians will honor requests for changes from brand name
to generic. But it does take a clientele that has some knowledge and
gumption. It is surprising to see how many people still take "Doctor
says" like so much Biblical exhortation.
*Medicare patients, especially, may have Part D in which various plan
formularies allow different brands or require generics. Medicaid
(Medical Assistance, or MA) also has some restrictions.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
I have heard it used in Northern Ireland, and have used it myself when
collecting a completed prescription form from my doctor's receptionist.
In medical use "prescription" has more than one meaning.
OED:
5. a. A doctor's instruction, usually in writing, for the composition
and use of a medicine; the action of prescribing a medicine; a medicine
prescribed. Also more widely: any treatment ordered by a medical
practitioner.
"Script" is, using the word above, "A doctor's instruction, usually in
writing, for the composition and use of a medicine".
On at least one occasion last year, following a phone conversation in which my
doctor decided to prescribe some medicine for me, I went to my doctor's
receptionist to *collect the prescription*[1]. I then walked a short distance
to a nearby pharmacy to *collect the prescription*[2].
[1] "Collect the prescription" = collect the form, i.e the script.
[2] "Collect the prescription" = collect the medicine prescribed.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Barbara Bailey
news:lfobn49rfhnj9fff1...@4ax.com:
> On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:07:23 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
> <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>I'd lose those scare quotes. The dosage needs careful and constant
>>monitoring, and in some cases frequent adjustment: you'd be insane to
>>buy it over the Internet and self-medicate. I think my mother has hers
>>checked--in the hospital--every month.
>
> ObAUE: I won't ask how careful hospitals are, since that isn't an
> English point, but how "constant" is once a month?
To me, that's fairly constant in the context of prescription meds.
I've got one prescription now that hasn't been changed on two years, and
back when Dimetapp was prescription rather than OTC, I had an open-ended
scrip for it that went 12 years with the "monitoring" consisting of once a
year the doctor asking, "So, you still having those sinus attacks?" and me
saying "Yes," and him saying, "Well, you know when you need to take it." On
the other hand, my husband's endocrinologist adjusts his insulin dosage
every four months or so. So, every 30 days is "constant".
Barbara Bailey
> (Garrett Wollman) wrote:
>>In most if not all U.S. states, pharmacists are required by law to
>>dispense a generic if available, regardless of whether the script is
>>written for the generic or for the brand name, unless the practitioner
>>makes some mark on the script indicating that the brand-name drug is
>
> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy,
> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? I've never noticed it
> before, although I see it made it to the COD10, as "informal: a
> doctor's prescription". I don't see it in my edition of
> Merriam-Webster's Collegiate, but the OED has for it: "Slang (orig.
> U.S.) Shortened form of prescription, esp one for narcotic drugs." Do
> many Americans use "script" this way or in the way Garrett used it?
I use it (or rather, if I were to write it the way I say it , "scrip")
fairly regularly. And as a side note, I'm in Illinois, and, as far as I
know, the pharmacist is at liberty to substitute a generic unless "No
Substitutions" is specified on the original prescription sheet or unless
there are different formulations of the same drug. (For example, my
husband's insulin is Novolog 70/30. The pharmacist cannot substitute any
other formulation for Novolog, even if it's still a 70/30 blend.). They
aren't required to, but most do.
John Varela
wrote:
> "R H Draney" <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
> news:gl2qp...@drn.newsguy.com
>
> > You give them to your friend's pet ball pythons, innit?...r
>
> Oh, not likely. The advantage, I have found, is that the mice "go
> away". Maybe time travel? Anyway, no disposal is necessary. I wonder
> if they die in their little tunnels and subsequent mice using the same
> tunnels consume their flesh and also "go away" and die.
My sister-in-law's house had a mouse infestation so they set traps.
They found a partly eaten mouse in one of the traps and formed the
same theory as above. A couple of weeks later a three-foot black
snake was discovered in the basement. You might want to rethink
about that python.
--
John Varela
Trade OLD lamps for NEW for email
Default User
> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy,
> abbreviation, "script", for prescription?
Widespread enough to name a company:
<http://www.express-scripts.com/>
Brian
--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)
Roland Hutchinson
> On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:59:32 UTC, "Skitt" <ski...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>> No, it is not common usage. The meaning in AmE is the same as in Oz.
>> They don't make journalists the way they used to, that's all.
>
> No kidding. Almost every day I find something wrong in The
> Washington Post, supposedly one of the top 3 or 4 newspapers in the
> country.
What they don't make like they used to is editors -- to say nothing of
compositors.
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.
NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
Richard Bollard
wrote:
>Chuck Riggs wrote:
I had a blood test for clotting as my dentist thought my blood might
be clotting too quickly. The guy at the lab doing the test rang me at
home that night and with rather a worried tone asked me if I was on
warfarin. He was clearly relieved when I said I wasn't. Apparently my
clotting was normal and this was a worry to him iff I was on an
anti-coagulant.
Normally these people are completely invisible and have no contact
with the patient. It was quite a surprise to hear from one.
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia
To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.
Richard Bollard
wrote:
>On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 23:55:33 +0100, Leslie Danks <leslie...@aon.at>
And, of course, Australia. An axis of As?
Robin Bignall
Or possibly the pharmacist. I have to take eight different sorts of
pills or capsules each day. The doctor prescribes them generically (I
don't think I have any that are specific to one manufacturer) and I
seem to end up with products from different manufacturers each month.
Maybe the pharmacist supplies himself with what's cheapest at any
given time. The other items on my prescription that are proprietary
have to be ordered each month, even though he knows that they are
going to be prescribed.
--
Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England
Leslie Danks
> On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 14:56:19 +0000, Chuck Riggs <chr...@eircom.net>
> wrote:
[...]
>>Austria and America have more in common, I see, than having the same
>>initial and final letters.
>
> And, of course, Australia. An axis of As?
Here are the rest of the rogue states (courtesy of Wiki***ia):
Albania
Algeria
Andorra
Angola
Antigua and Barbuda
Argentina
Armenia
--
Les (BrE)
Robin Bignall
It was announced today that cancer patients, regardless of age, would
get free prescriptions from April 1, and, eventually, all patients
with long-term medical conditions would also get their treatment free.
"Around 60 per cent of the English population do not pay prescription
charges because of their age or because they are on income support,
and more than eight or ten medicines are prescribed for free." (Daily
Telegraph: is it eight or ten?)
"In England, each prescription item costs £7.10 - although patients
needing regular courses can pay a flat rate of £102.50 for a year's
supply. Charges raise over £400m for the NHS, but a range of
exemptions are already in place meaning just 12% of prescriptions are
currently paid for." (BBC: 20% or 12%?)
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
wrote:
>It was announced today that cancer patients, regardless of age, would
>get free prescriptions from April 1, and, eventually, all patients
>with long-term medical conditions would also get their treatment free.
>
>"Around 60 per cent of the English population do not pay prescription
>charges because of their age or because they are on income support,
>and more than eight or ten medicines are prescribed for free." (Daily
>Telegraph: is it eight or ten?)
>
Typo. "eight of ten"
>"In England, each prescription item costs £7.10 - although patients
>needing regular courses can pay a flat rate of £102.50 for a year's
>supply. Charges raise over £400m for the NHS, but a range of
>exemptions are already in place meaning just 12% of prescriptions are
>currently paid for." (BBC: 20% or 12%?)
>
The BBC report below does not (any longer?) have that wording:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7838234.stm
Robin Bignall
That's changed pretty quickly. I googled just before I posted.
tony cooper
wrote:
>Chuck Riggs wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>> Instead of rat poison, my doctor uses Aspirin and Plavix to thin my
>> blood:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clopidogrel
>
>Pet peeve: "thin the blood"
>
Complete drift, but my pet peeve in this usage is when people talk
about their blood thinning after they move to a warmer clime. It's
heard a lot in Florida, when someone says they now get cold easier
because their blood has thinned since they moved to Florida.
Skitt
> Leslie Danks wrote:
>>> Instead of rat poison, my doctor uses Aspirin and Plavix to thin my
>>> blood:
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clopidogrel
>>
>> Pet peeve: "thin the blood"
>
> Complete drift, but my pet peeve in this usage is when people talk
> about their blood thinning after they move to a warmer clime. It's
> heard a lot in Florida, when someone says they now get cold easier
> because their blood has thinned since they moved to Florida.
Well, as long as it doesn't make your blood run cold ...
--
Skitt (AmE)
Pat Durkin
"Barbara Bailey" <rabr...@yahoo.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns9B997510A975Cr...@85.214.105.209...
> Chuck Riggs wrote:
>> (Garrett Wollman) wrote:
>
>
>
>>>In most if not all U.S. states, pharmacists are required by law to
>>>dispense a generic if available, regardless of whether the script is
>>>written for the generic or for the brand name, unless the
>>>practitioner
>>>makes some mark on the script indicating that the brand-name drug is
>
>>
>> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy,
>> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? I've never noticed it
>> before, although I see it made it to the COD10, as "informal: a
>> doctor's prescription". I don't see it in my edition of
>> Merriam-Webster's Collegiate, but the OED has for it: "Slang (orig.
>> U.S.) Shortened form of prescription, esp one for narcotic drugs." Do
>> many Americans use "script" this way or in the way Garrett used it?
>
> I use it (or rather, if I were to write it the way I say it , "scrip")
> fairly regularly.
They use both "scrip" and "script" fairly often on the
alt.support.diabetes newsgroup, so I can't say whether they have all
picked up the jargon from early posters, or from their pharmacists or
physicians.
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
>Chuck Riggs wrote:
>
>
>> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy,
>> abbreviation, "script", for prescription?
>
>Widespread enough to name a company:
>
><http://www.express-scripts.com/>
I never doubted the fact that is a word but is it as dodgy a word as
that company appears to be? By dodgy, I mean would you ask your doctor
for a script instead of a prescription?
Barbara Bailey
> "Barbara Bailey" wrote:
>> Chuck Riggs wrote:
>>> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy,
>>> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? I've never noticed it
>>> before, although I see it made it to the COD10, as "informal: a
>>> doctor's prescription". I don't see it in my edition of
>>> Merriam-Webster's Collegiate, but the OED has for it: "Slang (orig.
>>> U.S.) Shortened form of prescription, esp one for narcotic drugs." Do
>>> many Americans use "script" this way or in the way Garrett used it?
>>
>> I use it (or rather, if I were to write it the way I say it , "scrip")
>> fairly regularly.
>
> They use both "scrip" and "script" fairly often on the
> alt.support.diabetes newsgroup, so I can't say whether they have all
> picked up the jargon from early posters, or from their pharmacists or
> physicians.
For what it's worth, I picked it up from my doctor in Wisconsin.
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
>Richard Bollard wrote:
Yehbut, do generic drugs also meet with resistance from doctors and
their lobby groups in these countries?
I doubt if any medical lobby group is half as powerful, well-funded,
pervasive or detrimental to the needs of patients in the middle to
lower income brackets as the American Medical Association: the
infamous AMA, which assures that American drugs are vastly overpriced
compared to their European counterparts, that American doctors are
vastly overpaid and that the typical American hospital room costs an
arm and a leg. More targets for Mr Obama, once he gets the time.
Chuck Riggs
I agree with Mike when he says "regular" would be a better choice.
"Constant" has a prescribed mathematical definition.
Pat Durkin
"Barbara Bailey" <rabr...@yahoo.invalid> wrote in message
Oh, there, there, now. Your infecting the rest of the country with it,
all unknowing, is hardly your fault. And I fear it is much too late to
contain the epidemic. Before we know it, Chuck will have caught it and
spread it to the four winds and seven seas.
Pat Durkin
"Chuck Riggs" <chr...@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:m8cen4pfgm0fuqk91...@4ax.com...
Too late, Chuck. Some fool doctor in Wisconsin has already passed it
on. (You will, by now, have read Barbara's comment, posted at just
about the same time as this of yours.)
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
>Chuck Riggs wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>> Instead of rat poison, my doctor uses Aspirin and Plavix to thin my
>> blood:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clopidogrel
>
>Pet peeve: "thin the blood"
>
>Anti-coagulants, of whatever type, do not "thin the blood" but inhibit the
>clotting process. Other things being equal, the blood from someone on
>anti-coagulant therapy is no thinner than the blood from someone not on
>anti-coagulant therapy. It just clots more slowly, the difference depending
>on the degree of medication. Here (and I presume elsewhere), patients on
>anti-coagulant therapy carry a card indicating the fact and giving details
>of the type and quantity of anti-coagulant taken. This ensures that in the
>event of serious injury they can be given the right antidote to prevent
>them from bleeding to death.
I used the phrase "thin the blood" carefully. These agents, at least
in the dosages I am taking, change the colour and the consistency of
the blood. I know what the stuff looked like and what it looks like
now. Sure, these agents are anti-coagulants, but they do what I'm
saying, as well. That is immediately obvious from looking at the fluid
and by watching it flow, both of which are things I have a chance to
do frequently, razor and other cuts heal so slowly.
Pat Durkin
Well, I think he has pointed some BB guns at that target. (Were
howitzers, until the economy pooped.)
But, no fear. Obamanation is on the move.
And, with regard to Leslie's post, our rogue states of Alaska and
Alabama (and California, with wild-assed Azusa) will be duking it out
to determine where all the socialist money will go.
Chuck Riggs
While growing up, I heard that frequently in the Washington, D.C.
area, for we met new people from the north, frequently. What a load of
crap, I'd say to myself.
Chuck Riggs
Leslie Danks
Coagulation is initiated by the injury. The difference you observe is the
difference between normal blood which has started to coagulate and
anti-coagulated blood, which has not. The heart and other organs will have
evolved to function efficiently with blood of a certain viscosity;
literally thinning it down would (IMO) be a Bad Thing.
--
Les (BrE)
Default User
> On 20 Jan 2009 19:19:38 GMT, "Default User" <defaul...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Chuck Riggs wrote:
> >
> >
> >> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy,
> >> abbreviation, "script", for prescription?
> >
> > Widespread enough to name a company:
> >
> > <http://www.express-scripts.com/>
>
> I never doubted the fact that is a word but is it as dodgy a word as
> that company appears to be?
Why do think the company seems dodgy?
> By dodgy, I mean would you ask your doctor
> for a script instead of a prescription?
I wouldn't ask him for either, most of the time. I go to him with
symptoms, and he writes the prescriptions. I don't personally use the
word "script", but there are many words I don't use but to which I have
no particular objection if others do.
Barbara Bailey
The mathematical meaning only applies when it's being used in a
mathematical context. Or are you saying that "My neighbor's dog barks
constantly" is wrong?
adjective
1. not changing or varying; uniform; regular; invariable: All
conditions during the three experiments were constant.
2. continuing without pause or letup; unceasing: constant noise.
3. regularly recurrent; continual; persistent: He found it impossible
to work with constant interruption.
4. faithful; unswerving in love, devotion, etc.: a constant lover.
5. steadfast; firm in mind or purpose; resolute.
6. Obsolete. certain; confident.
–noun
7. something that does not or cannot change or vary.
8. Physics. a number expressing a property, quantity, or relation that
remains unchanged under specified conditions.
9. Mathematics. a quantity assumed to be unchanged throughout a given
discussion.
Numbers 1 and 3 under "adjective" certainly appear to cover Mike's use.
He wasn't using it as a noun, which is where the matematical sense comes
in.
Mike Lyle
Oh, please, Chuck! The form "script" has been used for various written
things for centuries; sometimes it's an abbreviation, and sometimes it
isn't. Do you object to "radio script", for example?
--
Mike.
R H Draney
>
>Richard Bollard wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 14:56:19 +0000, Chuck Riggs <chr...@eircom.net>
>> wrote:
>
>
>>>Austria and America have more in common, I see, than having the same
>>>initial and final letters.
>>
>> And, of course, Australia. An axis of As?
>
>
>Albania
>Algeria
>Andorra
>Angola
>Antigua and Barbuda
>Argentina
>Armenia
Depending upon how one interprets "having the same initial and final letters",
one could also admit:
St Kitts and Nevis
St Vincent and the Grenadines (great name for a doo-wop group, that)
Seychelles
Solomon Islands
....r
--
"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"
pritsy
> Leslie Danks filted:
>>
>>Richard Bollard wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 14:56:19 +0000, Chuck Riggs <chr...@eircom.net>
>>> wrote:
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>>>Austria and America have more in common, I see, than having the same
>>>>initial and final letters.
>>>
>>> And, of course, Australia. An axis of As?
>>
>>Here are the rest of the rogue states (courtesy of Wiki***ia):
>>
>>Albania
>>Algeria
>>Andorra
>>Angola
>>Antigua and Barbuda
>>Argentina
>>Armenia
>
> Depending upon how one interprets "having the same initial and final
> letters", one could also admit:
>
> St Kitts and Nevis
> St Vincent and the Grenadines (great name for a doo-wop group, that)
> Seychelles
> Solomon Islands
>
> ....r
Czech Republic
Central African Republic
That's all, folks!
Nick
> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy,
> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? I've never noticed it
> before, although I see it made it to the COD10, as "informal: a
> doctor's prescription". I don't see it in my edition of
> Merriam-Webster's Collegiate, but the OED has for it: "Slang (orig.
> U.S.) Shortened form of prescription, esp one for narcotic drugs." Do
> many Americans use "script" this way or in the way Garrett used it?
My BrE mother used it regularly - but she had always been in one of the
Professions Supplementary to Medicine. She'd write it - of course - as
Rx.
--
Online waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk
development version: http://canalplan.eu
Pat Durkin
news:878wp4o...@temporary-address.org.uk
> Chuck Riggs <chr...@eircom.net> writes:
>
>> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy,
>> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? I've never noticed it
>> before, although I see it made it to the COD10, as "informal: a
>> doctor's prescription". I don't see it in my edition of
>> Merriam-Webster's Collegiate, but the OED has for it: "Slang (orig.
>> U.S.) Shortened form of prescription, esp one for narcotic drugs." Do
>> many Americans use "script" this way or in the way Garrett used it?
>
> My BrE mother used it regularly - but she had always been in one of
> the Professions Supplementary to Medicine. She'd write it - of
> course - as Rx.
"Receipt", of course. Which, coming from "Recipe" is all that it is.
(My dad grew up referring to "recipes" as "receipts".
When we say "prescribe" in many cases, we think of it as an imperative
statement, but in medicine, is that a command to the pharmacist or to
the patient?
musika
> Chuck Riggs <chr...@eircom.net> writes:
>
>> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy,
>> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? I've never noticed it
>> before, although I see it made it to the COD10, as "informal: a
>> doctor's prescription". I don't see it in my edition of
>> Merriam-Webster's Collegiate, but the OED has for it: "Slang (orig.
>> U.S.) Shortened form of prescription, esp one for narcotic drugs." Do
>> many Americans use "script" this way or in the way Garrett used it?
>
> My BrE mother used it regularly - but she had always been in one of
> the Professions Supplementary to Medicine. She'd write it - of
> course - as Rx.
On the diabetic groups I frequent, most Americans use the word "scrip".
--
Ray
UK
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
>
> When we say "prescribe" in many cases, we think of it as an imperative
>statement, but in medicine, is that a command to the pharmacist or to
>the patient?
I think we need to separate out the overall purpose of "prescribing" from any
legally mandated implementation details.
OED:
3. a. trans. To advise or order the use of (a medicine, remedy, treatment,
etc.), esp. by a written prescription. With to or indirect object. Also
fig.
The doctor advises or orders the patient to take a specified medicine. That is
the "prescribing" performed by the doctor.
There is then a formal procedure to be followed to get the medication to the
patient.
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 02:32:31 +0000 (UTC), woll...@bimajority.org
>
>
>
> (Garrett Wollman) wrote:
> >In article <49750517$0$21352$91cee...@newsreader01.highway.telekom.at>,
> >Leslie Danks <leslie.da...@aon.at> wrote:
>
> >>In Austria, too, generic drugs are being pushed by the health insurance
> >>bodies and the government as a means of saving health costs. I'm not
> >>up-to-date on how far this is compulsory, but it's meeting with the usual
> >>resistance from some doctors and their representatives
>
> >In most if not all U.S. states, pharmacists are required by law to
> >dispense a generic if available, regardless of whether the script is
> >written for the generic or for the brand name, unless the practitioner
> >makes some mark on the script indicating that the brand-name drug is
> >SUBSTITUTION".) This has the effect of defeating one of the ways drug
> >companies have used to steer doctors into prescribing their expensive
> >branded products, by supplying them with free prescription pads
> >already made out for a particular drug.
>
> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy,
> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? I've never noticed it
> before, although I see it made it to the COD10, as "informal: a
> doctor's prescription". I don't see it in my edition of
> Merriam-Webster's Collegiate, but the OED has for it: "Slang (orig.
> U.S.) Shortened form of prescription, esp one for narcotic drugs." Do
> many Americans use "script" this way or in the way Garrett used it?
The majority, I think.
However, I've never heard it adjectivally--no "scrip(t) drug" or "It's
non-scrip(t)". Cf. Garrett's "prescription pad". Google finds 4880
hits on "scrip drug", though, so it's probably just a matter of time.
--
Jerry Friedman
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
>
The winds, starting from Chicago, can circle the Midwest for many
years before they have an effect on the three coasts, let alone on
Europe, let alone on Ireland, where slightly over half the populace
have yet to fully accept the fact they are Europeans.
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
>Chuck Riggs wrote:
>
>> On 20 Jan 2009 19:19:38 GMT, "Default User" <defaul...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Chuck Riggs wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy,
>> >> abbreviation, "script", for prescription?
>> >
>> > Widespread enough to name a company:
>> >
>> > <http://www.express-scripts.com/>
>>
>> I never doubted the fact that is a word but is it as dodgy a word as
>> that company appears to be?
>
>Why do think the company seems dodgy?
>
>> By dodgy, I mean would you ask your doctor
>> for a script instead of a prescription?
>
>I wouldn't ask him for either, most of the time. I go to him with
>symptoms, and he writes the prescriptions. I don't personally use the
>word "script", but there are many words I don't use but to which I have
>no particular objection if others do.
At least you're halfway there, as I see it. For myself, I don't use
the word, I would object when others do and I have objected when
others do.
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
>
I have, but I will fight on, for it is a bad, bad word.