tranche vs level

[knuttle]

Can't they use a better word?
https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/tranche

President Joe Biden said on Tuesday the United States was imposing a first
tranche of sanctions against Russia for launching an invasion of Ukraine and
promised that more would come if there are further incursions.

What's wrong with "level" or "layer?"

[Peter Moylan]

It's part of the effort to repair the diplomatic rift between the US and
France.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Sam Plusnet]

On 23-Feb-22 1:14, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 23/02/22 11:59, knuttle wrote:
>> Can't they use a better word?
>> https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/tranche
>>
>> President Joe Biden said on Tuesday the United States was imposing a
>> first
>> tranche of sanctions against Russia for launching an invasion of Ukraine
>> and promised that more would come if there are further incursions.
>>
>> What's wrong with "level" or "layer?"
>
> It's part of the effort to repair the diplomatic rift between the US and
> France.
>

He's trying to appear tranchant.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <sv40t8$6kj$1...@dont-email.me>,

Maybe ask the finance people that -- the sanctions seem to be largely
financial, so probably that's the language the Treasury and the New
York Fed use when dealing with bankers, and it bled through into
Biden's speech when maybe he should have used a plainer word.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wol...@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

[Quinn C]

* Garrett Wollman:

> In article <sv40t8$6kj$1...@dont-email.me>,
> knuttle <keith_...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>Can't they use a better word?
>>https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/tranche
>>
>>President Joe Biden said on Tuesday the United States was imposing a first
>>tranche of sanctions against Russia for launching an invasion of Ukraine and
>>promised that more would come if there are further incursions.
>>
>>What's wrong with "level" or "layer?"
>
> Maybe ask the finance people that -- the sanctions seem to be largely
> financial, so probably that's the language the Treasury and the New
> York Fed use when dealing with bankers, and it bled through into
> Biden's speech when maybe he should have used a plainer word.

Good point. The context in which I've encountered "tranche" in English
for the first time - at least consciously - was business loans.

--
New Zealand - or as we call it in South Africa: New Zedland ...
-- Trevor Noah

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, February 22, 2022 at 9:56:01 PM UTC-5, Garrett Wollman wrote:
> In article <sv40t8$6kj$1...@dont-email.me>,
> knuttle <keith_...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >Can't they use a better word?
> >https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/tranche
> >
> >President Joe Biden said on Tuesday the United States was imposing a first
> >tranche of sanctions against Russia for launching an invasion of Ukraine and
> >promised that more would come if there are further incursions.
> >
> >What's wrong with "level" or "layer?"
>
> Maybe ask the finance people that -- the sanctions seem to be largely
> financial, so probably that's the language the Treasury and the New
> York Fed use when dealing with bankers, and it bled through into
> Biden's speech when maybe he should have used a plainer word.

It started to appear just a few years ago -- probably during the 2008
financial crisis? I remember it being explained for the gen.pub.

[Sam Plusnet]

I recall using it in the 1970s & 1980s, but in a project management context.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Bebercito]

IMO, "level" or "layer" denotes degrees or intensity, whereas "tranche" (at
least in the French sense of the word) has to do with chronology and is
closer to "stage" or "phase" (of a program).

[spains...@gmail.com]

The "tranche" that is due to the the main contractors in BrE, depends on the
Quantity Surveyor's measurement of how much work has been completed.

Nothing else.

[Mark Brader]

Keith Nuttle:

>> President Joe Biden said on Tuesday the United States was imposing

>> a first tranche of sanctions against Russia...

>>
>> What's wrong with "level" or "layer?"

"Bebercito":

> IMO, "level" or "layer" denotes degrees or intensity, whereas "tranche" (at
> least in the French sense of the word) has to do with chronology and is
> closer to "stage" or "phase" (of a program).

Agreed, it's "stage" or "phase". I come across this usage from time to
time in "Modern Railways" magazine in contexts like the ordering of new
trains. And I don't know why they say it using the French for "slice".
--
Mark Brader "Clearly, neither Mark Brader nor
Toronto Steve Summit read the whole book..."
m...@vex.net -- Greg Black

[J. J. Lodder]

The literal translation of French 'tranche' here would be 'slice',
as in cutting cake.
Since this is only the first slice of the cake
there is a lot more to come,

Jan

[spains...@gmail.com]

Exactly right. We know how big the cake is, but we need someone
to measure what sort of "tranche" has been taken out of it - and how
much remains.

[Jack]

And it's clear that the stages are discrete, which isn't true of
level.

--
Jack

[spains...@gmail.com]

If you are monitoring a large construction site, all kinds of things are going on,
and it is far from clear what "stage" any of it has achieved.

The whole project has been priced out. The contractors and sub-contractors are
entitled to their regular "tranche".

[Sam Plusnet]

On projects O worked on in the 1980s, the work was divided into
"tranches", but the money was doled out in "stage payments".

--
Sam Plusnet

[Jack]

But those payment are discrete increments, right?

--
Jack

[Bebercito]

A basic meaning of French "tranche" is "stage" or "phase",
besides "slice".

> Since this is only the first slice of the cake
> there is a lot more to come,

The metaphor of sanctions being referred to as a cake that
can be sliced seems at the very least improbable to me.

>
> Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

It is used for things like state loans,
which may put on the capital market in a number of tranches,
in order not to overload it.
I think the French word has become international for this usage.
The image of a cake being sliced is appropriate for this.

And the image of such a first slice of sanctions
suggests that there is a lot more to come,

Jan

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 2:02:25 AM UTC-5, Bebercito wrote:
> Le mercredi 23 février 2022 à 23:43:05 UTC+1, J. J. Lodder a écrit :
> > Bebercito <bebe...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > Le mercredi 23 février 2022 à 01:59:26 UTC+1, knuttle a écrit :
> > > > Can't they use a better word?
> > > > https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/tranche

> > > > President Joe Biden said on Tuesday the United States was imposing a first
> > > > tranche of sanctions against Russia for launching an invasion of Ukraine and
> > > > promised that more would come if there are further incursions.
> > > > What's wrong with "level" or "layer?"
> > > IMO, "level" or "layer" denotes degrees or intensity, whereas "tranche" (at
> > > least in the French sense of the word) has to do with chronology and is
> > > closer to "stage" or "phase" (of a program).
> > The literal translation of French 'tranche' here would be 'slice',
> > as in cutting cake.
>
> A basic meaning of French "tranche" is "stage" or "phase",
> besides "slice".

But those senses were not needed in English.

> > Since this is only the first slice of the cake
> > there is a lot more to come,
>
> The metaphor of sanctions being referred to as a cake that
> can be sliced seems at the very least improbable to me.

Nothing to do with cakes. It came into English to refer
to discrete segments of financial transactions. It
escaped into more general use, as I noted, probably
with the 2008 financial crisis.

For the gazillionth time, English is not French.

[Bebercito]

Le jeudi 24 février 2022 à 14:52:39 UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 2:02:25 AM UTC-5, Bebercito wrote:
> > Le mercredi 23 février 2022 à 23:43:05 UTC+1, J. J. Lodder a écrit :
> > > Bebercito <bebe...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > > Le mercredi 23 février 2022 à 01:59:26 UTC+1, knuttle a écrit :
> > > > > Can't they use a better word?
> > > > > https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/tranche
>
> > > > > President Joe Biden said on Tuesday the United States was imposing a first
> > > > > tranche of sanctions against Russia for launching an invasion of Ukraine and
> > > > > promised that more would come if there are further incursions.
> > > > > What's wrong with "level" or "layer?"
> > > > IMO, "level" or "layer" denotes degrees or intensity, whereas "tranche" (at
> > > > least in the French sense of the word) has to do with chronology and is
> > > > closer to "stage" or "phase" (of a program).
> > > The literal translation of French 'tranche' here would be 'slice',
> > > as in cutting cake.
> >
> > A basic meaning of French "tranche" is "stage" or "phase",
> > besides "slice".
> But those senses were not needed in English.

That doesn't prove that "tranche" is not used in that sense
in English. Many English-speakers can say "C'est la vie", for
instance, when an all-English calque of the phrase exists.

> > > Since this is only the first slice of the cake
> > > there is a lot more to come,
> >
> > The metaphor of sanctions being referred to as a cake that
> > can be sliced seems at the very least improbable to me.
> Nothing to do with cakes. It came into English to refer
> to discrete segments of financial transactions. It
> escaped into more general use, as I noted, probably
> with the 2008 financial crisis.

But, precisely, said discrete segments are staggered in
time, which likens them to stages or phases. As a matter
of fact, they could also be referred to as "instal(l)ments"
in English, but maybe "tranche" sounds more "chic".

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 12:47:24 PM UTC-5, Bebercito wrote:
> Le jeudi 24 février 2022 à 14:52:39 UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 2:02:25 AM UTC-5, Bebercito wrote:
> > > Le mercredi 23 février 2022 à 23:43:05 UTC+1, J. J. Lodder a écrit :
> > > > Bebercito <bebe...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > > > Le mercredi 23 février 2022 à 01:59:26 UTC+1, knuttle a écrit :
> > > > > > Can't they use a better word?
> > > > > > https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/tranche

> > > > > > President Joe Biden said on Tuesday the United States was imposing a first
> > > > > > tranche of sanctions against Russia for launching an invasion of Ukraine and
> > > > > > promised that more would come if there are further incursions.
> > > > > > What's wrong with "level" or "layer?"
> > > > > IMO, "level" or "layer" denotes degrees or intensity, whereas "tranche" (at
> > > > > least in the French sense of the word) has to do with chronology and is
> > > > > closer to "stage" or "phase" (of a program).
> > > > The literal translation of French 'tranche' here would be 'slice',
> > > > as in cutting cake.
> > > A basic meaning of French "tranche" is "stage" or "phase",
> > > besides "slice".
> > But those senses were not needed in English.
>
> That doesn't prove that "tranche" is not used in that sense
> in English.

Merely the fact that it isn't used that way.,

English is not French.

> Many English-speakers can say "C'est la vie", for
> instance, when an all-English calque of the phrase exists.

"That's life" and "C'est la vie" have very different connotations
in English..

English is not French.

> > > > Since this is only the first slice of the cake
> > > > there is a lot more to come,
> > > The metaphor of sanctions being referred to as a cake that
> > > can be sliced seems at the very least improbable to me.
> > Nothing to do with cakes. It came into English to refer
> > to discrete segments of financial transactions. It
> > escaped into more general use, as I noted, probably
> > with the 2008 financial crisis.
>
> But, precisely, said discrete segments are staggered in
> time, which likens them to stages or phases. As a matter
> of fact, they could also be referred to as "instal(l)ments"
> in English, but maybe "tranche" sounds more "chic".

Look up the financial sense of "installment."

A different word was needed.

English is not French.,

[Bebercito]

Indeed, "tranche" has a specific financial sense that is akin
to "slice":

---
What Is a Tranche?
"Tranche" is a French word meaning "slice" or "portion." In the
world of investing, it is used to describe a security that can be
split up into smaller pieces and subsequently sold to investors.
Tranches are common with mortgage-backed securities (MBS),
which are a basket of mortgage loans that are pooled together
for investors to buy.

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/what-tranche/
---

But in the case at hand, i.e. sanctions that must be imposed
gradually, again, "tranches" obviously means "stages" or
"phases".

[Peter T. Daniels]

If you must insist on pretending that it's a French word, they
are still "slices." Successive portions cut from the same loaf.

However, English is not French.

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 12:47:24 PM UTC-5, Bebercito wrote:

>> Many English-speakers can say "C'est la vie", for
>> instance, when an all-English calque of the phrase exists.
>
> "That's life" and "C'est la vie" have very different connotations
> in English..

Very(!) different? Maybe for you, not for English in general.

| Definition of c'est la vie
|
| : that's life : that's how things happen
<https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/c'est%20la%20vie>

--
9/11 was pretty much the 9/11 of the falafel business.
-- Abed Nadir on Community

[Bebercito]

But could one really use "slices of sanctions" in English? Not any
more than "tranches de sanctions" in French.

That only goes to show that English has taken up the "stage" or
"phase" senses of French "tranche" (as used in construction
programs) into a new context where "tranche" wouldn't be
used in French itself.

[Ross Clark]

Just a late note: I noticed Biden's use of it, but the financial sense
was unknown to me. The only place I have encountered it in use is in the
language of archivists, where it seems to denote a major section of a
very large collection of documents, as here:

https://media.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php/an-introduction-to-the-seventh-tranche-of-colonial-administration-records-released-at-the-national-archives/

[CDB]

On 2/24/2022 10:54 PM, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:

>> Bebercito wrote:

>>> Many English-speakers can say "C'est la vie", for instance, when
>>> an all-English calque of the phrase exists.

>> "That's life" and "C'est la vie" have very different connotations
>> in English..

> Very(!) different? Maybe for you, not for English in general.

> | Definition of c'est la vie | | : that's life : that's how things
> happen <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/c'est%20la%20vie>

Son cosas de la vida.

[Quinn C]

* CDB:

I like the Latin cause it rhymes: ita est vita.

A common humorous version in German is "Tel Aviv".

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 10:54:25 PM UTC-5, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
> > On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 12:47:24 PM UTC-5, Bebercito wrote:

> >> Many English-speakers can say "C'est la vie", for
> >> instance, when an all-English calque of the phrase exists.
> > "That's life" and "C'est la vie" have very different connotations
> > in English..
>
> Very(!) different? Maybe for you, not for English in general.
>
> | Definition of c'est la vie
> |
> | : that's life : that's how things happen
> <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/c'est%20la%20vie>

Dictionary definitions rarely include _connotations_.

English isn't French, even when a Germo-Canadian suggests it.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Which is EXACTLY WHY it was convenient to borrow a French word
for the purpose. Maybe even left over from back when French was
an important international diplomatic language.

> That only goes to show that English has taken up the "stage" or
> "phase" senses of French "tranche" (as used in construction
> programs) into a new context where "tranche" wouldn't be
> used in French itself.

That is, quite obviously, utterly false, and the uses of a borrowed
word in the lending language are completely irrelevant to its use
in the borrowing language..

English is not French.

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 10:54:25 PM UTC-5, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>> On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 12:47:24 PM UTC-5, Bebercito wrote:
>
>>>> Many English-speakers can say "C'est la vie", for
>>>> instance, when an all-English calque of the phrase exists.
>>> "That's life" and "C'est la vie" have very different connotations
>>> in English..
>>
>> Very(!) different? Maybe for you, not for English in general.
>>
>>| Definition of c'est la vie
>>|
>>| : that's life : that's how things happen
>> <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/c'est%20la%20vie>
>
> Dictionary definitions rarely include _connotations_.

I would contest that.

> English isn't French, even when a Germo-Canadian suggests it.

And therefore, each and every word must have a different, entirely
incompatible meaning? Translation isn't even really possible?

[Bebercito]

Le vendredi 25 février 2022 à 15:48:37 UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Friday, February 25, 2022 at 12:35:02 AM UTC-5, Bebercito wrote:
> > Le jeudi 24 février 2022 à 22:03:56 UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 3:31:00 PM UTC-5, Bebercito wrote:
>
> > > > But in the case at hand, i.e. sanctions that must be imposed
> > > > gradually, again, "tranches" obviously means "stages" or
> > > > "phases".
> > > If you must insist on pretending that it's a French word, they
> > > are still "slices." Successive portions cut from the same loaf.
> >
> > But could one really use "slices of sanctions" in English? Not any
> > more than "tranches de sanctions" in French.
> Which is EXACTLY WHY it was convenient to borrow a French word
> for the purpose.

Nonsense. Several English words (series, sets...) could have
suitably replaced "tranches".

> Maybe even left over from back when French was
> an important international diplomatic language.
> > That only goes to show that English has taken up the "stage" or
> > "phase" senses of French "tranche" (as used in construction
> > programs) into a new context where "tranche" wouldn't be
> > used in French itself.
> That is, quite obviously, utterly false,

What is, and how? If you google "tranches de sanctions",
you'll find that the only very rare instances of it are for a
translation of a Biden's speech (sometimes even with
scare quotes).

> and the uses of a borrowed
> word in the lending language are completely irrelevant to its use
> in the borrowing language..

So what? That's just grist to my mill.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, February 25, 2022 at 12:09:17 PM UTC-5, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
> > On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 10:54:25 PM UTC-5, Quinn C wrote:
> >> * Peter T. Daniels:
> >>> On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 12:47:24 PM UTC-5, Bebercito wrote:

> >>>> Many English-speakers can say "C'est la vie", for
> >>>> instance, when an all-English calque of the phrase exists.
> >>> "That's life" and "C'est la vie" have very different connotations
> >>> in English..
> >> Very(!) different? Maybe for you, not for English in general.
> >>| Definition of c'est la vie
> >>| : that's life : that's how things happen
> >> <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/c'est%20la%20vie>
> > Dictionary definitions rarely include _connotations_.
>
> I would contest that.

How are they labeled/indicated?

> > English isn't French, even when a Germo-Canadian suggests it.
>
> And therefore, each and every word must have a different, entirely
> incompatible meaning? Translation isn't even really possible?

No, each and every word almost certainly does have a different
connotation from those of its synonyms.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, February 25, 2022 at 12:14:57 PM UTC-5, Bebercito wrote:
> Le vendredi 25 février 2022 à 15:48:37 UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > On Friday, February 25, 2022 at 12:35:02 AM UTC-5, Bebercito wrote:
> > > Le jeudi 24 février 2022 à 22:03:56 UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > > On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 3:31:00 PM UTC-5, Bebercito wrote:

> > > > > But in the case at hand, i.e. sanctions that must be imposed
> > > > > gradually, again, "tranches" obviously means "stages" or
> > > > > "phases".
> > > > If you must insist on pretending that it's a French word, they
> > > > are still "slices." Successive portions cut from the same loaf.
> > > But could one really use "slices of sanctions" in English? Not any
> > > more than "tranches de sanctions" in French.
> > Which is EXACTLY WHY it was convenient to borrow a French word
> > for the purpose.
>
> Nonsense. Several English words (series, sets...) could have
> suitably replaced "tranches".

Which _already have_ technical meanings in the field of finance.

> > Maybe even left over from back when French was
> > an important international diplomatic language.
> > > That only goes to show that English has taken up the "stage" or
> > > "phase" senses of French "tranche" (as used in construction
> > > programs) into a new context where "tranche" wouldn't be
> > > used in French itself.
> > That is, quite obviously, utterly false,

> What is,

Sheesh. What you asserted: "That only goes to show that .""

> and how?

On the face of it (_prima facie_).

> If you google "tranches de sanctions",
> you'll find that the only very rare instances of it are for a
> translation of a Biden's speech (sometimes even with
> scare quotes).

Good grief. How many "translations" can there be of a speech
given a couple of days ago?

French is not English.

> > and the uses of a borrowed
> > word in the lending language are completely irrelevant to its use
> > in the borrowing language..
>
> So what? That's just grist to my mill.

For you to tilt at, you mean?

[Bebercito]

There are very many references to it in the French press,
and his "tranches of sanction" is translated (unthoughtfully)
as "tranches de sanction".

>
> French is not English.

Are you suffering from psittacism?

[Sam Plusnet]

On 25-Feb-22 19:51, Bebercito wrote:

> There are very many references to it in the French press,

I imagine lots of USians giving their coffee maker a puzzled look.

--
Sam Plusnet

[J. J. Lodder]

That seems to be more of a left-pondian usage.
In continental Europe, and afaik also in Britain
the thing is better known as a cafetierre.
(or just a as coffee-maker, like IKEA's Upphetta)

Jan

[Sam Plusnet]

On 26-Feb-22 10:44, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
>
>> On 25-Feb-22 19:51, Bebercito wrote:

>>> There are very many references to it in the French press,
>>
>> I imagine lots of USians giving their coffee maker a puzzled look.
>
> That seems to be more of a left-pondian usage.

?? Is the label "USian" causing a problem?


--
Sam Plusnet

[lar3ryca]

Just in case you are not joking...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_press

>
>
> --
> Sam Plusnet