CAN SOMEONE PLEASE HELP RE: TWO QUERIES ON TEXT 'GRAPES OF WRATH'
babu71
I've just finished reading "The Grapes of Wrath". It was one of the
most powerful & moving books I've ever read. I just loved it.
There are just a couple of minor things within the book that I just
don't understand. I'm not sure if they are 'Americanisms' (I'm
from Australia) so I hope the two questions I have don't seem too
stupid!
Anyway, they are:
1. CHAPTER 14
In the chapter regarding the nervousness of the western states, there
is a paragraph where Steinbeck express' his idea of the progress of
mankind. He writes about 'stepping forward, but not slipping the whole
way back, which I found profound. He goes on, however, with the
following:
"This you may know when the bombs plummet out of the black planes.....
Prisoners stuck like pigs....Fear the time the bombs stop falling."
What I would like to know is. What does he mean by 'bombs'?, seeing
how the book was written before the 2nd World War. Which 'prisoners
stuck like pigs' is he referring too?
I just can't get my head around it.
2. CHAPTER 16.
Tom and Al are having a conversation whilst driving on the lookout for
a wrecker's yard to find a spare part.
At one stage Al says to Tom, "You and me could get a couple of pints
and go down the line". Soon after Tom turns to Al and replies, "I
didn't think you were a fella to go down the line".
What does it mean to "go down the line"? What are they referring
to?.
If any kind soul can find the time to respond if they know what I am
trying to find out, I would be eternally grateful!
Chris R
John Dean
> Hi All
>
> I've just finished reading "The Grapes of Wrath". It was one of the
> most powerful & moving books I've ever read. I just loved it.
>
> There are just a couple of minor things within the book that I just
> don't understand. I'm not sure if they are 'Americanisms' (I'm
> from Australia) so I hope the two questions I have don't seem too
> stupid!
>
> Anyway, they are:
>
> 1. CHAPTER 14
> In the chapter regarding the nervousness of the western states, there
> is a paragraph where Steinbeck express' his idea of the progress of
> mankind. He writes about 'stepping forward, but not slipping the
> whole way back, which I found profound. He goes on, however, with the
> following:
>
> "This you may know when the bombs plummet out of the black planes.....
> Prisoners stuck like pigs....Fear the time the bombs stop falling."
>
> What I would like to know is. What does he mean by 'bombs'?, seeing
> how the book was written before the 2nd World War.
There were bombs dropped from aeroplanes before WW2. Indeed, there were
bombs dropped in WW1 but only on a very small scale basis. But major
bombing attacks were a feature of the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939). One
of the best known incidents was the bombing of Guernica, an even that
inspired a major painting by Picasso.
> Which 'prisoners
> stuck like pigs' is he referring too?
Another feature of the Spanish Civil War was brutality toward prisoners
and this may well be what he was thinking of.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Martin Ambuhl
> 1. CHAPTER 14
> In the chapter regarding the nervousness of the western states, there
> is a paragraph where Steinbeck express' his idea of the progress of
^^^^^^^ expresses
> mankind. He writes about 'stepping forward, but not slipping the whole
> way back, which I found profound.
Without the whole sentence, some readers may not find this "profound"
statement even coherent. Here 'tis:
"Having stepped forward, he may slip back, but only half a step, never
the full step back."
> He goes on, however, with the
> following:
>
> "This you may know when the bombs plummet out of the black planes.....
> Prisoners stuck like pigs....Fear the time the bombs stop falling."
>
> What I would like to know is. What does he mean by 'bombs'?, seeing
> how the book was written before the 2nd World War. Which 'prisoners
> stuck like pigs' is he referring too?
This passage does not refer to a particular incident. If you look at
the paragraph to this point, it is a paean to mankind's impulse toward
construction. Not only does this drive continue despite destruction,
but one may actually find the drive toward construction in the
destruction itself:
The last clear definite function of man—muscles aching to work, minds
aching to create beyond the single need—this is man. To build a wall, to
build a house, a dam, and in the wall and house and dam to put something
of Manself, and to Manself take back something of the wall, the house,
the dam; to take hard muscles from the lifting, to take the clear lines
and form from conceiving. For man, unlike any other thing organic or
inorganic in the universe, grows beyond his work, walks up the stairs of
his concepts, emerges ahead of his accomplishments. This you may say of
man—when theories change and crash, when schools, philosophies, when
narrow dark alleys of thought, national, religious, economic, grow and
disintegrate, man reaches, stumbles forward, painfully, mistakenly
sometimes. Having stepped forward, he may slip back, but only half a
step, never the full step back. This you may say and know it and know
it. This you may know when the bombs plummet out of the black planes on
the market place, when prisoners are stuck like pigs, when the crushed
bodies drain filthily in the dust. You may know it in this way. If the
step were not being taken, if the stumbling-forward ache were not alive,
the bombs would not fall, the throats would not be cut. Fear the time
when the bombs stop falling while the bombers live—for every bomb is
proof that the spirit has not died....
> I just can't get my head around it.
Then look to the end of the paragraph:
And this you can know — fear the time when Manself will not suffer and
die for a concept, for this one quality is the foundation of Manself,
and this one quality is man, distinctive in the universe.
the Omrud
> babu71 wrote:
> > Hi All
> >
> > What I would like to know is. What does he mean by 'bombs'?, seeing
> > how the book was written before the 2nd World War.
>
> There were bombs dropped from aeroplanes before WW2. Indeed, there were
> bombs dropped in WW1 but only on a very small scale basis.
They weren't so much dropped as thrown. The bombs were carried
aboard two-seater biplanes and heaved overboard by the passenger once
the plane was above its target.
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the
Peter Duncanson
>Hi All
>
>I've just finished reading "The Grapes of Wrath". It was one of the
>most powerful & moving books I've ever read. I just loved it.
>
>There are just a couple of minor things within the book that I just
>don't understand. I'm not sure if they are 'Americanisms' (I'm
>from Australia) so I hope the two questions I have don't seem too
>stupid!
>
>Anyway, they are:
>
>1. CHAPTER 14
>In the chapter regarding the nervousness of the western states, there
>is a paragraph where Steinbeck express' his idea of the progress of
>mankind. He writes about 'stepping forward, but not slipping the whole
>way back, which I found profound. He goes on, however, with the
>following:
>
>"This you may know when the bombs plummet out of the black planes.....
> Prisoners stuck like pigs....Fear the time the bombs stop falling."
>
>What I would like to know is. What does he mean by 'bombs'?, seeing
>how the book was written before the 2nd World War. Which 'prisoners
>stuck like pigs' is he referring too?
>
>I just can't get my head around it.
>
Bombs were used in World War One. The first air raid on London was early
in September 1917. Bombs had been used on battlefield targets before
then. Neither the planes nor the bombs were of the size used later.
--
Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.u.e)
Areff
Bombs of some sort must have been used in the War of 1812 (aka The
War of British Imperialist Aggression), if US national anthem is any
guide.
John Dean
Sure. And there was, presumably, an ancestor of the film star Rockets
Redglare present:
http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0714871/
--
John Dean
Oxford
Pat Durkin
"babu71" <lune...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1125517416.0...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Hi All
>
> I've just finished reading "The Grapes of Wrath". It was one of the
> most powerful & moving books I've ever read. I just loved it.
> Anyway, they are:
>
> 1. CHAPTER 14
> In the chapter regarding the nervousness of the western states, there
> is a paragraph where Steinbeck express' his idea of the progress of
> mankind. He writes about 'stepping forward, but not slipping the whole
> way back, which I found profound. He goes on, however, with the
> following:>
> "This you may know when the bombs plummet out of the black planes.....
> Prisoners stuck like pigs....Fear the time the bombs stop falling."
>
> What I would like to know is. What does he mean by 'bombs'?, seeing
> how the book was written before the 2nd World War. Which 'prisoners
> stuck like pigs' is he referring too?
>
> I just can't get my head around it.
The others have done a great job of describing the horrors of war. I
particularly like Martin's inspirational interpretation. So I will go on to
the "line".
>
>
> 2. CHAPTER 16.
>
> Tom and Al are having a conversation whilst driving on the lookout for
> a wrecker's yard to find a spare part.
>
> At one stage Al says to Tom, "You and me could get a couple of pints
> and go down the line". Soon after Tom turns to Al and replies, "I
> didn't think you were a fella to go down the line".
>
> What does it mean to "go down the line"? What are they referring
> to?.
I don't recall that particular event or the time of the suggestion.
However, "down the line" might be referring to a location in the camp or the
town where the prostitutes plied their trade, possibly for the price of a
swig from a bottle. The line might have been the line of tents housing the
migrant workers. Tom is sounding very Fonda, isn't he? He indicates that
he wouldn't want to associate with the prostitutes, if you want to take it
that way, and is surprised his buddy would. On the other hand, Tom is the
simple and honest union man, not wanting to take advantage of others even
less fortunate than he.
When I was in high school (in the US), this novel was proscribed as
anti-American and inspired by the communists, and our local libraries and
schools did not carry it. The labor movement in many areas was still
suspect in the '50s (still is, if you listen to those hard-line neo-cons).
(A few weeks ago I mentioned a film "Salt of the Earth", about striking
miners in New Mexico. The film was made in 1951, I think. The producers
were on the black list and had to get their own money together to produce
the film. ) The only reason I was aware of the film was that an
acquaintance had written an opera, "Esperanza!" based on the film. The
production of the opera in our town was sponsored by the local labor temple.
Tony Cooper
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:56:53 GMT, "Pat Durkin" <durk...@nothome.com>
wrote:
>(A few weeks ago I mentioned a film "Salt of the Earth", about striking
>miners in New Mexico. The film was made in 1951, I think. The producers
>were on the black list and had to get their own money together to produce
>the film. ) The only reason I was aware of the film was that an
>acquaintance had written an opera, "Esperanza!" based on the film. The
>production of the opera in our town was sponsored by the local labor temple.
>
I've never come across the phrase "labor temple". I see it is in use,
and one of the usages is:
Madison's Labor Temple Hall is the first union hall in Wisconsin to
use solar energy for generating electricity. Electricians from the
International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW) of Union Local
159 installed the PV system as part of a course offered to master
electricians.
There are several other references. Strange, after all these years,
there's a term like this out there that I've never heard. There are
many phrases I've never heard, of course, but union halls are quite
familiar to me so a phrase used to describe a union hall should have
somehow been familiar.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
Areff
>
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:56:53 GMT, "Pat Durkin" <durk...@nothome.com>
> wrote:
>>The
>>production of the opera in our town was sponsored by the local labor temple.
>>
>
> I've never come across the phrase "labor temple". I see it is in use,
> and one of the usages is:
>
> Madison's Labor Temple Hall is the first union hall in Wisconsin to
> use solar energy for generating electricity. Electricians from the
> International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW) of Union Local
> 159 installed the PV system as part of a course offered to master
> electricians.
>
> There are several other references. Strange, after all these years,
> there's a term like this out there that I've never heard.
There's a "Labor Temple" right near where I am temporarily residing in
Seattle. I'll take a photo of it if I remember -- it's very
WPA-ish-looking, IYKWIM -- sort of that 20th-century proletarian
masculinist style, akin to the Rosie the Riveter poster style. It's still
used as a real union hall.
The very name seems evocative of days gone by.
Pat Durkin
"Areff" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:df5g8m$d4r$5...@news.wss.yale.edu...
> IYKWIM
I think I've got it! I got it! I get it! I have gotten it!
> The very name seems evocative of days gone by.
Sadly, too far gone.
Brian Wickham
wrote:
That's not counting the large multi-engine heavy bombers used in WW1.
You can see one example at
http://www.theaerodrome.com/aircraft/gbritain/handley_v1500.html
Brian Wickham
Wood Avens
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I've never come across the phrase "labor temple". I see it is in use,
>and one of the usages is:
>
>Madison's Labor Temple Hall is the first union hall in Wisconsin to
>use solar energy for generating electricity. Electricians from the
>International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW) of Union Local
>159 installed the PV system as part of a course offered to master
>electricians.
>
>There are several other references. Strange, after all these years,
>there's a term like this out there that I've never heard. There are
>many phrases I've never heard, of course, but union halls are quite
>familiar to me so a phrase used to describe a union hall should have
>somehow been familiar.
Is "Labor Temple" an indication of Masonic roots?
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
Stephen Hayes
babu71 wrote in a message to All:
b> From: "babu71" <lune...@hotmail.com>
b> "This you may know when the bombs plummet out of the black
b> planes..... Prisoners stuck like pigs....Fear the time the bombs
b> stop falling."
b> What I would like to know is. What does he mean by 'bombs'?, seeing
b> how the book was written before the 2nd World War. Which 'prisoners
b> stuck like pigs' is he referring too?
Spanish civil war? Perhaps the bombing of Guernica in 1937 (Grapes of Wrath was
written in 1939).
--
Steve Hayes
WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail: haye...@hotmail.com - If it doesn't work, see webpage.
FamilyNet <> Internet Gated Mail
http://www.familynet-international.org
Stephen Hayes
the Omrud wrote in a message to All:
tO> From: the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
tO> John Dean spake thusly:
> babu71 wrote:
> > Hi All
> >
> > What I would like to know is. What does he mean by 'bombs'?, seeing
> > how the book was written before the 2nd World War.
>
> There were bombs dropped from aeroplanes before WW2. Indeed, there were
> bombs dropped in WW1 but only on a very small scale basis.
tO> They weren't so much dropped as thrown. The bombs were carried
tO> aboard two-seater biplanes and heaved overboard by the passenger
tO> once the plane was above its target.
That was in 1914, surely.
By 1918 the planes were more technologically advanced.
Joe Fineman
> Bombs were used in World War One. The first air raid on London was
> early in September 1917. Bombs had been used on battlefield targets
> before then. Neither the planes nor the bombs were of the size used
> later.
Dirigibles seem to have been used, too:
The Zeppelins and Gothas they raid over us.
Our lights give warning, and fade over us.
(Seven thousand women keeping quiet in the darkness!)
Oh, it's good for me to be here!
-- Kipling, "The Song of the Lathes" (1918)
Blackouts, too, already! The women are working in a huge factory
making artillery shells.
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net
||: Art, being bartender, is never drunk, :||
||: And magic that believes itself must die. :||
Peter Duncanson
Ah yes -- The Star-Bangled Spanner.
The lyrics seem to make no mention of the bombs being delivered from
aircraft, or even balloons or kites (avian or otherwise).
Pat Durkin
"Wood Avens" <wood...@askjennison.com> wrote in message
news:1kcdh1l3lnb1tu6fs...@4ax.com...
I don't think so. I believe that the AFL (AFofL-American Federation of
Labor) conceived of them selves as the Knights of Labor when first
organized. They were a coalition of wage-laborers and miners unions, before
the CIO (Congress of Industrial Organizations) joined up with them. The
sanctity of labor and all that.
Don Aitken
wrote:
>
No, the Knights of Labor were a rival movement to the mainstream
unions. They were organised shortly before, and given a big boost by,
the depression of the 1870s. They were organised in "district
assemblies", each headed by a "Master Workman", with a national "Grand
Master Workman" (Uriah Stephens) from 1878. Stephens was a Mason, and
designed the ritual along similar lines. Their main selling point, in
those days of rampant victimisation, was that they were a *secret*
organisation. This rapidly turned into a major liability, especially
when it led to the organisation being condemned by the Catholic
Church.
It was partly the success of the Knights which led the national unions
to combine their efforts, in 1881, in the "Federation of Organised
Trades and Labor Unions of the United States and Canada" (based
closely on the model of the British T.U.C.) which became the A.F. of
L. in 1886. The new body immediately engaged in a frontal attack on
the Knights, whose disintegration was complete by the end of the
century - they had had more than 700,000 members in 1886. The Miners,
who had been strongly involved with the Knights from the beginning,
were among the last to leave.
Info from Henry Pelling's "American Labor".
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
J. J. Lodder
'Used' is overstating it.
They never flew a combat mission.
A reference to the Spanish civil war (Guernica)
seems more likely,
Jan
J. J. Lodder
Mike Lyle
Zeppelins did a few bombing sorties.
--
Mike.
J. J. Lodder
More than a few even.
But to little effect,
for they were soon forced up to high altitude
by increasingly effective defences,
so they couldn't bomb with any precision.
And it just wasn't enough to could as terror bombardment.
The 'Pariskanonne' of 1870 did more damage to Paris
than the zeppelins to London.
But again, given Steinbeck's sympathies
a references to civil war in Spain
seems more likely than one to WW I Britain.
Beste,
Jan