Spoken use of "sans"
Rio Maria
written English. The dictionary gives the pronunciation as being the
straightforward English sound one would expect: it rhymes with "pans" and
"cans," not like the French word for "without." Is this derived from some
other language that *does* pronounce it to rhyme with "bans," or if not, does
anyone actually use it in spoken English? I think one would sound rather
foolish speaking it.
Tim of Florida
>I've seen "sans" used for "without" in what I consider to be pretentious
>anyone actually use it in spoken English? I think one would sound rather
>foolish speaking it.
Those of us with a flair for the post-modern can get away with all
kinds of things which would otherwise sound foolish. One can learn a great
deal from Warner Bros. cartoons...
--
Remember, kids, 90% of
archaeology is done in Tim Dellinger
the library. tdel...@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu
Frank Young
Rio Maria <riom...@aol.com> wrote:
>I've seen "sans" used for "without" in what I consider to be pretentious
>written English. The dictionary gives the pronunciation as being the
>straightforward English sound one would expect: it rhymes with "pans" and
The popularity of this usage is almost certainly caused by the fact that
Shakespeare was very, very fond of it, indeed.
Perhaps the most famous line which employs the word is the last one of
Jacques' "Ages of Man" speech:
"Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything."
[AYL, II,vii,165]
But, also in AYL, is: "And I did laugh sans intermission." [II,viii,32]
And Prospero comments: "A confidence sans bound." [Temp., I,ii,97]
And Brabantio mentions: "Sans withcraft..." [Othello, I,iii,65]
And Dromio: "sans fable..." [ComErr, IV,iv,68]
And Hamlet: "... smelling sans all..." [Hamlet, III,iv,80]
as well as "Come, come, sans compliment.." [V,vi,16]
And Ulysses: "Sans check, to good and bad..." [Troil&Cress, I,iii,94]
And Holofernes: "I do, sans question." [LLL, V,i,74]
But my favorite example also is from <Love's Labour's Lost>, in the
exchange between Berowne and Rosaline:
B: My love to thee is sound, sans crack or flaw.
R: Sans sans, I pray you. [V,ii,415-416]
And I [stuffy hruummph here] have been known to say it myself.
--
Regards, Frank Young
tip...@wam.umd.edu 703-532-6284
6166 Leesburg Pike, Suite B-12, Falls Church, Virginia 22044-2343
"Videmus nunc per speculum in ‘nigmate.... Nunc cognosco ex parte"
Robert Bryan Lipton
: I've seen "sans" used for "without" in what I consider to be pretentious
Nope, it is derived from the French. However, spelling pronunciations
are not that uncommon in English. For its use, check Shakespeare,
Bob
Bob Pritchard
Wendy Seltzer <wsel...@husc9.harvard.edu> wrote:
>
>I suppose this is an apt a time as any to gripe at those who pronounce
>"forte" with an "ay" sound at the end rather than as derived from the
>French, "fort." Often when I hear someone do that (usually in a
>pretentious phrase anyhow), I get an uncontrollable urge to respond,
>"Oh, I see pronunciation isn't your forte."
>
>Wendy
Perhaps we're using the Italian-derived term, implying strength (or
loudness). When I speak French with composers in Quebec or Europe, I use
the French fort/forte, unless I'm discussing specific musical
interpretations, in which case Italian terms are quite natural.
Hmm, should I be posting this to alt.usage.polyglot?
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bob Pritchard b...@unixg.ubc.ca
School of Music, U.B.C.
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, V6T 1W5
Douglas Harper
>riom...@aol.com (Rio Maria) writes:
>
>>I've seen "sans" used for "without" in what I consider to be pretentious
>
>>anyone actually use it in spoken English? I think one would sound rather
>>foolish speaking it.
I may sound foolish when I do, but I say "sans serif" fairly often.
Many different typefaces appear in the documents we produce at ORA.
--
Douglas Harper rot13("Green") = "Terra"
har...@oracorp.com rot13("vex") = "irk"
+1 (607) 277-2020 rot13("coincidence") = "pbvapvqrapr"
Wendy Seltzer
I suppose this is an apt a time as any to gripe at those who pronounce
Richard N Kitchen
In a previous article, wsel...@husc9.harvard.edu (Wendy Seltzer) says:
>I suppose this is an apt a time as any to gripe at those who pronounce
>"forte" with an "ay" sound at the end rather than as derived from the
>French, "fort." Often when I hear someone do that (usually in a
>pretentious phrase anyhow), I get an uncontrollable urge to respond,
>"Oh, I see pronunciation isn't your forte."
Apparently, good manners are not yours.
--
Rick Kitchen da...@cleveland.freenet.edu
"Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum."
--Terry Pratchett, "Small Gods"
Ken Miller
Wendy Seltzer (wsel...@husc9.harvard.edu) wrote:
: I suppose this is an apt a time as any to gripe at those who pronounce
: "forte" with an "ay" sound at the end rather than as derived from the
: French, "fort." Often when I hear someone do that (usually in a
: pretentious phrase anyhow), I get an uncontrollable urge to respond,
: "Oh, I see pronunciation isn't your forte."
Wendy, there are *two* etymologies for forte. As a noun, it does indeed
come from the French "fort" and is pronounced as you indicate. But as an
adjective or adverb, or even as a noun in any musical context, it is
derived from the Italian "forte" and is pronounced with the "-ay" ending.
I assert this, forte, even though I admit that orthoepy is not my forte.
Nor even my metier.
Ken Miller
Proprietor, Traduttore Traditore Trattoria
kcmi...@netcom.com
Claudia Mastroianni
>I suppose this is an apt a time as any to gripe at those who pronounce
>"forte" with an "ay" sound at the end rather than as derived from the
>French, "fort." Often when I hear someone do that (usually in a
>pretentious phrase anyhow), I get an uncontrollable urge to respond,
>"Oh, I see pronunciation isn't your forte."
Well, I'd say it's a spelling-influenced pronunciation. I don't think
English words have silent e's in such a position these days, do they
(word-finally, not softening a consonant, following 2 consonants)?
It may also be confusion with the Italian "forte". I use the Italian far
more frequently, but then, I sing, and it is common as a musical
instruction. I have no idea which is in more common use generally.
Claudia
Cameron
Mastroianni) says:
>
>wsel...@husc9.harvard.edu (Wendy Seltzer) writes:
>
>>I suppose this is an apt a time as any to gripe at those who pronounce
>>"forte" with an "ay" sound at the end rather than as derived from the
>>French, "fort." Often when I hear someone do that (usually in a
>
>English words have silent e's in such a position these days, do they
>(word-finally, not softening a consonant, following 2 consonants)?
>
>It may also be confusion with the Italian "forte". I use the Italian far
>more frequently, but then, I sing, and it is common as a musical
>instruction. I have no idea which is in more common use generally.
>
from French, and the other from Italian. The word borrowed from French is
pronounced "fort" and means "strong point." This word entered English as a
technical term in the vocabulary of fencing.
The other word is pronounced "for-tay." Italian in origin, this one entered
English as a musical term and means "loud." (As in "pianoforte.")
=======================================================================
Cameron Majidi "It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide"
cx...@psuvm.psu.edu
George Quinlan
...
>I suppose this is an apt a time as any to gripe at those who pronounce
>"forte" with an "ay" sound at the end rather than as derived from the
>French, "fort." Often when I hear someone do that (usually in a
>pretentious phrase anyhow), I get an uncontrollable urge to respond,
>"Oh, I see pronunciation isn't your forte."
>
>Wendy
Hmmm... according to my OED, the accepted pronunciation of forte
in English is indeed like "for-tay". However in French, the
pronunciation varies according to whether it is being used to
modify a masculine or feminine noun. In the masculine case it's
written "fort" and pronounced like "for" while in the feminine
case it's written "forte" and pronounced like "fort".
--
George Quinlan Genasys II, 33 Berry St, North Sydney, Australia.
Quelle est la difference entre l'ignorance et l'apathie? Je ne sais
pas et je m'en moque.
Richard Tobin
>: "forte" with an "ay" sound at the end
This is the only pronunciation given in the COD, and the only one
I've heard.
> rather than as derived from the French, "fort."
Can anyone explain why the English spelling has an "e"?
>: Often when I hear someone do that (usually in a
>: pretentious phrase anyhow), I get an uncontrollable urge to respond,
>: "Oh, I see pronunciation isn't your forte."
It seems to me that it's your pronunciation that's the odd one.
-- Richard
--
Richard Tobin, HCRC, Edinburgh University R.T...@ed.ac.uk
"Your monkey has got it right, sir." - HHGTTG
Colin Kendall
> NNTP-Posting-Host: husc7.harvard.edu
> wsel...@husc9.harvard.edu (Wendy Seltzer) writes:
>>I suppose this is an apt a time as any to gripe at those who pronounce
>>"forte" with an "ay" sound at the end rather than as derived from the
>>French, "fort." Often when I hear someone do that (usually in a
>>pretentious phrase anyhow), I get an uncontrollable urge to respond,
>>"Oh, I see pronunciation isn't your forte."
> Well, I'd say it's a spelling-influenced pronunciation. I don't think
> English words have silent e's in such a position these days, do they
> (word-finally, not softening a consonant, following 2 consonants)?
The following words spring to mind: table, visible, puddle, halve, worse, ache,
treacle, treadle, trifle, boggle, purple, misle, lisle, wattle, programme,
shoppe, panne, thorpe, else, defense, and furze.
--
Warmest regards,
Colin Kendall.
Phone (813) 371-0811 extension 6842
Claudia Mastroianni
>In article <mastr.7...@husc7.harvard.edu>, ma...@husc7.harvard.edu (Claudia
>Mastroianni) says:
>The situation is quite simple. Two English words are in question, one borrowed
>from French, and the other from Italian. The word borrowed from French is
>pronounced "fort" and means "strong point." This word entered English as a
>technical term in the vocabulary of fencing.
>The other word is pronounced "for-tay." Italian in origin, this one entered
>English as a musical term and means "loud." (As in "pianoforte.")
I understand. However, I believe the original poster's point (which I
tried to respond to) was that people often mean "strong point" when they
say "for-tay".
Claudia
Karl Snow
> >: I suppose this is an apt a time as any to gripe at those who pronounce
> >: "forte" with an "ay" sound at the end
I checked my inexpensive office dictionary and, somewhat to my surprise, it
listed two other one syllable pronunciations before the two syllable one with
the "ay" sound at the end. Fine. But, what surprised me more was that the
preferred (first) pronunciation is "fort" with the "hat o" sound as in "paw"
or "for." Well, I rarely hear "paw" and "for" pronounced with the same vowel.
What I hear is "paw" pronounced like the first syllable in "father" and "for"
pronounced like the "oa" sound in "roar." I concede that a Western US accent
is what I normally hear, but I was not aware that pronouncing "paw" and "for"
with the same vowel sound was preferred.
Karl Snow
ks...@dsd.es.com
chab...@vms1.bham.ac.uk
> What I hear is "paw" pronounced like the first syllable in "father" and "for"
> pronounced like the "oa" sound in "roar."
About 10 years ago I was playing around with a speech synthesiser chip
(an SSI263, if memory serves) which had pre-programmed phonemes on ROM.
To generate a sound one selected a phoneme, a volume, duration and
envelope. A straightforward task, one might imagine; but the manual was
written with, I assume, Americans in mind. One of the phonemes was
described as like the `a' in father and the `o' in top. To an English
ear the `a' in father is orthogonal to the `o' in top.
The result of my experimentation was a device which would talk rather
like Marvin in tHHG, but with a mid-Atlantic accent.
Tony Chabot
Glen Ecklund
Here in the Midwest we pronounce "paw" with the vowel of "Dawn" and "father"
with the vowel of "Don", but you don't seem to make that distinction, like
some Westerners.
I checked a few dictionaries, and I was surprised at how "for" is
represented in lots of different ways. I guess I don't think that
vowel occurs without an 'r' following, in my dialect. I think it is
between "aw" and "oh". Come to think of it, some British "aw"s are
between by and "oh".
--
Glen Ecklund gl...@cs.wisc.edu (608) 262-1318 Office, 262-1204 Dept. Sec'y
Department of Computer Sciences 1210 W. Dayton St., Room 3355
University of Wisconsin, Madison Madison, Wis. 53706 U.S.A.
Wendy Seltzer
I am aware of the Italian derivation of forte as well as the French, but
I have never heard it in a non-musical context, or to mean anything other
than loud when used in English. On the other hand, I'd be satisfied if
any of the many I've heard mispronounce it could give so reasonable an
explanation.
Wendy
Charles W. Darling
A couple of years ago, a sports writer for the Hartford Courant took a
Whalers coach to task for pronouncing the word forte WITHOUT the "ay"
ending. Since the coach spent most of his life hob-nobbing with French
Canadians, the sports writer should've known better than to take him on
in such a matter, but he didn't, apparently. In the Letters to the
Editor page for the next week or so, he paid dearly for it.
Charles Darling
gh_mar...@apollo.commnet.edu
--
Charles W. Darling
eo...@cleveland.freenet.edu
walru...@aol.com
gh_mar...@apollo.commnet.edu
Adrian Pepper
in article <2pmomj$a...@scunix2.harvard.edu>:
>
>I am aware of the Italian derivation of forte as well as the French, but
>I have never heard it in a non-musical context, or to mean anything other
>than loud when used in English. On the other hand, I'd be satisfied if
>any of the many I've heard mispronounce it could give so reasonable an
>explanation.
>
reasonable is not allowed.
All right then, let's make a wild guess--a "fort" is a stronghold.
Something is [not] my "stronghold"? Seems like a strained metaphor.
Pronouncing the "e" gives a hint as to the meaning intended, even if it
does result from confusion with Italian musical terms.
The OED2 gives "fort" as a "former" (that is, not currently used)
pronunciation of "forte".
Adrian.
Richard N Kitchen
In a previous article, ks...@iguana.dsd.es.com (Karl Snow) says:
>What I hear is "paw" pronounced like the first syllable in "father" and "for"
>pronounced like the "oa" sound in "roar." I concede that a Western US accent
>is what I normally hear, but I was not aware that pronouncing "paw" and "for"
>with the same vowel sound was preferred.
My mother, from Oklahoma, has a pronunciation of the word "hawk" which I
cannot even come close to pronouncing. To my ear, the vowel is the same
as the vowel in "for", but whenever I attempt the pronuncation, she
assures me that I'm dong it wrong.
Christopher Monsour
If you want to say that the `e' in `table' is silent, then you are certainly
counting `l' as a semivowel, not a consonant, so that destroys about
half your examples. Also, I think you will find that the final `e' in
`else' is softening the `s'.
I must be hallucinating: Colin Kendall posted an American spelling to the
net! Colin, you better figure out who cracked your password and then
find a better defense or defence to keep it secret. :-)
--Christopher J. Monsour
Ken Miller
Richard Tobin (ric...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk) wrote:
: > rather than as derived from the French, "fort."
: Can anyone explain why the English spelling has an "e"?
Sure. In French, an adjective that ends in a consonant in its masculine
form usually acquires an "e" in its feminine form, as in "fort" (masc.)
and "forte" (fem.). The difference in pronunciation is important to the
Francophone but not easily distinguished by the Anglophone.
Ken Miller
Poetaster Emeritus
The Anacreonitick Academy of Zymurgicomusicology
kcmi...@netcom.com
MILLION D L
>wsel...@husc9.harvard.edu (Wendy Seltzer) wrote,
> in article <2pmomj$a...@scunix2.harvard.edu>:
>>
>>I am aware of the Italian derivation of forte as well as the French, but
>>I have never heard it in a non-musical context, or to mean anything other
>>than loud when used in English. On the other hand, I'd be satisfied if
>>any of the many I've heard mispronounce it could give so reasonable an
>>explanation.
>>
>
>Something is [not] my "stronghold"? Seems like a strained metaphor.
>Pronouncing the "e" gives a hint as to the meaning intended, even if it
>does result from confusion with Italian musical terms.
>
Many speakers of English tend to mangle or misuse foreign words. It gets
even worse when there are words that look alike which came from two different
languages. The trouble some people have distinguishing "homo" (Latin,
meaning "man") from "homo" (Greek, meaning "same") comes to mind.
The fact remains that "forte" meaning "strong point" came to us from the
French term for the strong part of a fencing weapon, and is pronounced "fort".
Similarly, "foible" was the term for the weak, flexible part of the blade
near the tip, and "foible" in English now refers to a minor weakness in
character.
The musical term "forte", on the other hand, came from Italian, and is
pronounced "for-tay". Both words come from the same Latin root, of course,
but they have different histories and different pronunciations. I for one
don't care to intentionally mispronounce words just to put across the
"meaning intended". If people don't know the meanings or pronunciations
of fancy foreign-derived two-dollar words like "forte", they should stick
with more clearcut terms like "strong point" or "strength" instead of
being pretentious, using the words incorrectly, and looking like fools.
I'm ready for the "you elitist pig" flames, so bring 'em on.
Dan Million
l...@ornl.gov
Colin Kendall
> In article <KENDALL.94...@cps204.lds.loral.com> ken...@lds.loral.com (Colin Kendall) writes:
>>>>>>> On 26 Apr 94 21:48:39 GMT, ma...@husc7.harvard.edu (Claudia Mastroianni) said:
>> > NNTP-Posting-Host: husc7.harvard.edu
>>
>> > wsel...@husc9.harvard.edu (Wendy Seltzer) writes:
>>
>>>>I suppose this is an apt a time as any to gripe at those who pronounce
>>>>"forte" with an "ay" sound at the end rather than as derived from the
>>>>French, "fort." Often when I hear someone do that (usually in a
>>>>pretentious phrase anyhow), I get an uncontrollable urge to respond,
>>>>"Oh, I see pronunciation isn't your forte."
>>
>> > Well, I'd say it's a spelling-influenced pronunciation. I don't think
>> > English words have silent e's in such a position these days, do they
>> > (word-finally, not softening a consonant, following 2 consonants)?
>>
>>The following words spring to mind: table, visible, puddle, halve, worse, ache,
>>treacle, treadle, trifle, boggle, purple, misle, lisle, wattle, programme,
>>shoppe, panne, thorpe, else, defense, and furze.
> If you want to say that the `e' in `table' is silent,
Well, of course I want to say that? Why wouldn't I? Wouldn't you? If not, what
sound does it have?
> then you are certainly
> counting `l' as a semivowel, not a consonant,
No, I'm not. The `l' in `table' sounds like the `l' in `tableau', to me.
> Also, I think you will find that the final `e' in
> `else' is softening the `s'.
Probably, though who can say how `els' would be pronounced. And why doesn't the
final `e' soften the `s' in `please', please?
> I must be hallucinating: Colin Kendall posted an American spelling to the
> net!
Actually, I can never remember which is the American and which is the British
spelling of `defense'; I chose `defense' because in `defence' the final `e'
is perhaps softening the `c'.
William C Waterhouse
> >Mastroianni) says:
> >The situation is quite simple. Two English words are in question, one borrowed
> >from French, and the other from Italian. The word borrowed from French is
> >pronounced "fort" and means "strong point." This word entered English as a
> >technical term in the vocabulary of fencing.
>
> >The other word is pronounced "for-tay." Italian in origin, this one entered
> >English as a musical term and means "loud." (As in "pianoforte.")
It might be added that, in addition to "forte" used metaphorically as
as the term for one's personal strengths, we also preserve in English
a corresponding metaphorical use of the word for one's personal
weaknesses: it is "foible." (Of course the French went and changed the
spelling to "faible.")
William C. Waterhouse
Penn State
Christopher Monsour
>In article <kcmillerC...@netcom.com>,
>Ken Miller <kcmi...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>>Wendy Seltzer (wsel...@husc9.harvard.edu) wrote:
>>
>>: I suppose this is an apt a time as any to gripe at those who pronounce
>>: "forte" with an "ay" sound at the end rather than as derived from the
>>: French, "fort." Often when I hear someone do that (usually in a
>>: pretentious phrase anyhow), I get an uncontrollable urge to respond,
>>: "Oh, I see pronunciation isn't your forte."
>>
>>Wendy, there are *two* etymologies for forte. As a noun, it does indeed
>>come from the French "fort" and is pronounced as you indicate. But as an
>>adjective or adverb, or even as a noun in any musical context, it is
>>derived from the Italian "forte" and is pronounced with the "-ay" ending.
>>I assert this, forte, even though I admit that orthoepy is not my forte.
>>Nor even my metier.
>
>I have never heard it in a non-musical context, or to mean anything other
>than loud when used in English. On the other hand, I'd be satisfied if
>any of the many I've heard mispronounce it could give so reasonable an
>explanation.
Well, I always figured it was from Latin: `Forte' being a neuter adjective,
it might reasonably be used as a substantive with nearly the meaning it
has in English. I don't know or recall enough Latin to tell you whether
it is commonly so used by authors writing in Latin.
--Christopher J. Monsour
Christopher Monsour
>In article <2phuvg$l...@scunix2.harvard.edu> wsel...@husc9.harvard.edu (Wendy Seltzer) writes:
>...
>>I suppose this is an apt a time as any to gripe at those who pronounce
>>"forte" with an "ay" sound at the end rather than as derived from the
>>French, "fort." Often when I hear someone do that (usually in a
>>pretentious phrase anyhow), I get an uncontrollable urge to respond,
>>"Oh, I see pronunciation isn't your forte."
>>
>>Wendy
>
>Hmmm... according to my OED, the accepted pronunciation of forte
>in English is indeed like "for-tay". However in French, the
>pronunciation varies according to whether it is being used to
>modify a masculine or feminine noun. In the masculine case it's
>written "fort" and pronounced like "for" while in the feminine
>case it's written "forte" and pronounced like "fort".
Masculine and feminine (and neuter) are genders, not cases.
French adjectives never carry an inflection showing case.
--Christopher J. Monsour
Francis L. Bradham
>
> the "ay" sound at the end. Fine. But, what surprised me more was that the
> preferred (first) pronunciation is "fort" with the "hat o" sound as in "paw"
> or "for." Well, I rarely hear "paw" and "for" pronounced with the same vowel.
I am new to this group so I don't know if this is a
frequent topic here, but this is what my dictionary says about
pronunciations:
"When two or more pronunciations for a single word are given,
the order in which they are entered does not necessarily mean
that the first is preferred to or more correct than the one or
ones that follow."
Webster's New World Dictionary of the Amercian Language
It goes on to say that unless otherwise noted, any
pronunciation given "represents a standard use." It also notes
that the first one given is the "most frequent in general
cultivated use. Where usage is evenly divided, since one form
must be given first, the editors' preference generally
prevails." (I read that to mean personal preference.)
The purpose of a dictionary is to catalog what exists in a
language, not to prescribe what the lexicographer thinks should
exist. For the dictionary to list one pronunciation as
"preferred" over any others would be to declare some dialects
inferior to others which I do not think is the goal of any
reasonable lexicographer.
Bo Bradham
jth...@crc.sd68.nanaimo.bc.ca
>
> > Well, I'd say it's a spelling-influenced pronunciation. I don't think
> > English words have silent e's in such a position these days, do they
> > (word-finally, not softening a consonant, following 2 consonants)?
>
> The following words spring to mind: table, visible, puddle, halve, worse, ache,
> treacle, treadle, trifle, boggle, purple, misle, lisle, wattle, programme,
> shoppe, panne, thorpe, else, defense, and furze.
> -- ^^^^^^
> Warmest regards,
> Colin Kendall.
> Phone (813) 371-0811 extension 6842
Heh, Leave me out of this <g>
Warmest regards,
Jim Thorpe
Michael F. Howard
: I suppose this is an apt a time as any to gripe at those who pronounce
: "forte" with an "ay" sound at the end rather than as derived from the
: French, "fort." Often when I hear someone do that (usually in a
: pretentious phrase anyhow), I get an uncontrollable urge to respond,
: "Oh, I see pronunciation isn't your forte."
: Wendy
Don't do it, Wendy, people are very unforgiving about pronunciation
correction, even in private!
My favorite is "val-lay" for valet (which comes from varlet, not
French). (How's that for faulty parallelism)
--
Mike Howard |"The trouble with the world is that the. . . ."
mi...@netcom.com | The-name-of-your-favorite-author-here.
71043,2315 | Opinions! Christ! Everyone has one!
Ron Newman
>My favorite is "val-lay" for valet (which comes from varlet, not
>French). (How's that for faulty parallelism)
My dictionaries say that both "valet" and "varlet" come from
Old French "vaslet", meaning servant. The pronunciation of
"valet" as "VAL-ay" or "va-LAY" is totally standard.
--
Ron Newman MIT Media Laboratory
rne...@media.mit.edu
Suzii Abe
> > If you want to say that the `e' in `table' is silent,
>
> Well, of course I want to say that? Why wouldn't I? Wouldn't you? If not, wha
> sound does it have?
>
> > then you are certain
> > counting `l' as a semivowel, not a consonant,
>
> No, I'm not. The `l' in `table' sounds like the `l' in `tableau', to me.
How many syllables does "table" have?
I pronounce it with two; thus, I require two vowel-sounds.
--Suzii.
pale...@lily.arts.com
Philip Lantz
>> If you want to say that the `e' in `table' is silent,
>
> Well, of course I want to say that? Why wouldn't I? Wouldn't you? If not, wha
> sound does it have?
>
>> then you are certain
>> counting `l' as a semivowel, not a consonant,
>
> No, I'm not. The `l' in `table' sounds like the `l' in `tableau', to me.
Then what, pray tell, is the vowel sound in the second syllable? Perhaps,
for clarity, you could write out the entire pronunciation for us.
Philip Lantz
p...@mira.rain.com
Colin Kendall
> ken...@lds.loral.com (Colin Kendall) writes:
>> > If you want to say that the `e' in `table' is silent,
>>
>> Well, of course I want to say that? Why wouldn't I? Wouldn't you? If not, wha
>> sound does it have?
>>
>> > then you are certain
>> > counting `l' as a semivowel, not a consonant,
>>
>> No, I'm not. The `l' in `table' sounds like the `l' in `tableau', to me.
> How many syllables does "table" have?
Two.
> I pronounce it with two;
Good work!
> thus, I require two vowel-sounds.
Of course you do! We all do!
I hope you don't think that the vowel sound is in some sense provided by the "l".
If so, why the "l" rather than the "b"? What provides the vowel sound in the
second syllable of "dirndl", "amn't", and "isn't"?
In the first syllable of "phthalein"? In the only syllable of "psst"?
Colin Kendall
> Nntp-Posting-Host: cirrus.jf.intel.com
> ken...@lds.loral.com (Colin Kendall) writes:
>>> If you want to say that the `e' in `table' is silent,
>>
>> Well, of course I want to say that? Why wouldn't I? Wouldn't you? If not, wha
>> sound does it have?
>>
>>> then you are certain
>>> counting `l' as a semivowel, not a consonant,
>>
>> No, I'm not. The `l' in `table' sounds like the `l' in `tableau', to me.
> Then what, pray tell, is the vowel sound in the second syllable?
A schwa.
> Perhaps,
> for clarity, you could write out the entire pronunciation for us.
This is how my dictionary indicates the pronunciation: ta'b'l, where the first
apostrophe is an indication that the "ta" is the stressed syllable, and the
second is simply an apostrophe. The pronunciation guide says that
the apostrophe indicates that the following consonant is a
syllabic consonant; that is, that it forms the nucleus of a
syllable with no appreciable vowel sound accompanying it,
as in "apple" or "happen". In the speech of some persons,
certain syllabic consonants are replaced with syllables
containing reduced vowels, as (hap *n) [where the * stands
for an upside-down "e", otherwise called a schwa]. Such
variants, though not entered here, may be inferred.
Personally, I can't imagine the difference between "no appreciable vowel sound"
and "reduced vowels" in these cases. I have heard English speakers from all
over the world say "apple" and "table", and the sound in the second syllable
always sounds the same to me -- a schwa.
Glen Ecklund
>This is how my dictionary indicates the pronunciation: ta'b'l, where the first
>apostrophe is an indication that the "ta" is the stressed syllable, and the
>second is simply an apostrophe. The pronunciation guide says that
> the apostrophe indicates that the following consonant is a
> syllabic consonant; that is, that it forms the nucleus of a
> syllable with no appreciable vowel sound accompanying it,
> as in "apple" or "happen". In the speech of some persons,
> certain syllabic consonants are replaced with syllables
> containing reduced vowels, as (hap *n) [where the * stands
> for an upside-down "e", otherwise called a schwa]. Such
> variants, though not entered here, may be inferred.
>Personally, I can't imagine the difference between "no appreciable vowel sound"
>and "reduced vowels" in these cases. I have heard English speakers from all
>over the world say "apple" and "table", and the sound in the second syllable
>always sounds the same to me -- a schwa.
I can imagine that someone might insert a schwa before the "l" in "apple",
but I don't think I do. My best evidence is that my tongue is in the "l"
position when I release the "p". It takes an effort for me to do it
otherwise.
Peter E Fox
Where I come from (England) 'fort-ay' is the *universally accepted*
and *only* pronounciation of "forte". (Except for Lord Forte = 'fort').
This make it *correct* english.usage. I've checked this in the field.
So anyone who thinks different can stick their noses right back in
their books or stay away from these parts if it upsets them.
-- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
|Peter Fox | Post: 2 Tees Close,Witham,|
| Freelance consultant, programmer | Essex,CM8 1LG,England|
| analyst, designer, general whiz. | Voice: +44 376 517 206|
| Rollerskating coach | |
| Brigadier - 4th Ridley Lancers :-) | Internet: Pe...@pfox.demon.co.uk|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
George Quinlan
I presume what you mean by "case" is agreement of the adjective
in number with the noun being modified (e.g. fortes raisons vs
forte raison). In that case :-), you are right. However, I was
using "case" in the more general sense of "instance".
--
George Quinlan Quelle est la difference entre
Genasys II, 33 Berry St, l'ignorance et l'apathie? Je ne sais
North Sydney, Australia. pas et je m'en moque.
P.M. Inman
wsel...@husc9.harvard.edu (Wendy Seltzer) writes:
|> I suppose this is an apt a time as any to gripe at those who pronounce
|> "forte" with an "ay" sound at the end rather than as derived from the
|> French, "fort." Often when I hear someone do that (usually in a
|> pretentious phrase anyhow), I get an uncontrollable urge to respond,
|> "Oh, I see pronunciation isn't your forte."
It gets worse, I can assure you. There is a hotel chain in England called
Trust House Forte, pronounced "forty", formed by merger of two or more
companies, one of which was known in print as Forte's and popularly as
"forties". It was founded by one Charles Forte, a gentleman of Italian
extraction, whose name was pronounced "fort".
Then there's the well-known Swiss confectionery and baby food combine called
Nestle, referred to in the business press and by those who want to
demonstrate their knowledge as "nest-lay". One of their early products,
which, so I am told, sustained me as a baby, was a form of condensed milk,
known in popular speak as "nessles milk". Anyone who asked for "nest-lays
milk" would have been carted off in a plain van.
Other posters have referred to the valid usage of sans, to rhyme with cans, as
in sans serif and in "sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything".
But the blokes in the French Revolution are still called, in anglicized
French, the songs culotte.
--
Philip Inman.............................e-mail: pi...@cus.cam.ac.uk
Cambridge University Computing Service......tel: [+44 (int); 0 (UK)] 223-335442
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street...........fax: [+44 (int); 0 (UK)] 223-334679
Cambridge, England CB2 3QG
Colin Kendall
> NNTP-Posting-Host: slate.cs.wisc.edu
> I can imagine that someone might insert a schwa before the "l" in "apple",
> but I don't think I do. My best evidence is that my tongue is in the "l"
> position when I release the "p".
So is mine. The wonderful thing about a schwa is that you can say it with your
tongue in almost any position.
Consider: if you pronounced the 'pl' in 'apply' the same way you pronounce it in
'apple', then 'apply' would have three syllables, sounding like 'apple-eye'.
Glen Ecklund
>>>>>> On 2 May 1994 15:59:44 GMT, gl...@slate.cs.wisc.edu (Glen Ecklund) said:
> > NNTP-Posting-Host: slate.cs.wisc.edu
> > I can imagine that someone might insert a schwa before the "l" in "apple",
> > but I don't think I do. My best evidence is that my tongue is in the "l"
> > position when I release the "p".
>So is mine. The wonderful thing about a schwa is that you can say it with your
>tongue in almost any position.
Huh? I can't.
>Consider: if you pronounced the 'pl' in 'apply' the same way you pronounce it in
>'apple', then 'apply' would have three syllables, sounding like 'apple-eye'.
True. But that doesn't make it a schwa.
John A Lambert
> I've seen "sans" used for "without" in what I consider to be pretentious
> written English. The dictionary gives the pronunciation as being the
> straightforward English sound one would expect: it rhymes with "pans" and
> "cans," not like the French word for "without." Is this derived from some
> other language that *does* pronounce it to rhyme with "bans," or if not, does
> anyone actually use it in spoken English? I think one would sound rather
> foolish speaking it.
--
It is certainly used in English (and pronounced as spelt) in referring to a
'sans serif typeface'.
John A Lambert
Centre for Literary and Linguistic Computing
The University of Newcastle NSW 2308 Australia
Phone National (049)21 5751 Fax National (049)21 6916
International +61 49 21 5751 International +61 49 21 6916
e-mail cc...@cc.newcastle.edu.au
Peter Moylan
>I suppose this is an apt a time as any to gripe at those who pronounce
>"forte" with an "ay" sound at the end rather than as derived from the
>French, "fort." Often when I hear someone do that (usually in a
>pretentious phrase anyhow), I get an uncontrollable urge to respond,
>"Oh, I see pronunciation isn't your forte."
Are we actually sure this is derived from the French? The
musical term definitely comes from Italian, so it's at least
plausible that the other use of "forte" is also from Italian.
--
Peter Moylan pe...@ee.newcastle.edu.au
(also pe...@tesla.newcastle.edu.au, ee...@cc.newcastle.edu.au)
U25...@uicvm.uic.edu
>
>Probably, though who can say how `els' would be pronounced. And why doesn't
Here in Chicago, we would pronounce it 'elz,' the plural of el.
The el, short for elevated, is a train which goes over head.
Of course, like subway, it wouldn't be used in plural form.
Joe Shive.
whee...@logica.co.uk
Quite so, Peter; I heartily agree.
The argument against the pronunciation as 'fortay' is one of etymology, it
would seem, whereas Peter has pointed out that the argument for it is one of
majority - in the British Isles (at least) NOBODY says 'fort' - you'd get some
funny looks if you did. After all, nobody in the army pronounces 'reveille'
anything like its 'true' origin ('rivalli' is how the Lieutenant says it). We
also have Beaulieu as 'Bewley', and Americans have a particular way of saying
Baton Rouge and Des Moines!
If the vast majority (near 100% in this case) says 'fortay', you'd look a real
pratt by trying to speak 'etymologically'. 'Forte' is now in the English
language and we should pronounce it so that the majority of listeners
understands us.
Steve
PS. Peter, are you sure Lord Forte is 'Fort'? I shared a room at college with
one of his relatives, whose name was definitely pronounced 'Fortay'. They are,
after all, an Italian family.
Scott Terek
>
>How many els are there on the South Side?
>
>How many subways run through downtown?
As an (ex-)Chicagoan, I read your post, and found myself saying both of those
sentences in my head. I can see myself asking "How many subways?", but for
some reason, I absolutely could not see myself saying "How many els?" I would
have to change it to "How many el lines?"
Don't know what that means--just found it interesting that I have some sort
of mental block against pluralizing "el".
---
Scott S. Terek | Walt Disney Feature Animation
| 1420 Flower Street
ste...@fa.disney.com | Glendale, CA 91221
Christopher Monsour
But when `el' is used to refer to the line, it can be used in the plural:
How many els are there on the South Side?
How many subways run through downtown?
--Christopher J. Monsour
Peter E Fox
> PS. Peter, are you sure Lord Forte is 'Fort'? I shared a room at college with
>
> one of his relatives, whose name was definitely pronounced 'Fortay'. They are,
> after all, an Italian family.
As I say, I have checked this out in the field. Personally I would assume
'Fortay', but I have come across the 'fort' usage hence the report. I'm
pleased you also have 1st hand knowledge, 'cos this supports my predjudice.
Adam Boyd Roach
John A Lambert <cc...@cc.newcastle.edu.au> wrote:
>It is certainly used in English (and pronounced as spelt) in referring to a
>'sans serif typeface'.
But I've always heard that pronounced like "Sahn serif."
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adam Roach --- ad...@tamu.edu --- PGP 2.3 Public Key Available
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Charles Mitchell
abr...@tam2000.tamu.edu (Adam Boyd Roach) writes:
>In article <1994Apr27...@cc.newcastle.edu.au>,
>John A Lambert <cc...@cc.newcastle.edu.au> wrote:
>
>>It is certainly used in English (and pronounced as spelt) in referring to a
>>'sans serif typeface'.
>
>But I've always heard that pronounced like "Sahn serif."
>
with "tans" or "cans" in this and all other cases in English. This
includes the quotation in Shakespear (I have more sense than to try
to give it from memory, or find it in the book) which is a list of
things a person is "sans", due to old age I believe.
I looked it up in the American Heritage Dictionary, and it gives
both pronunciations, with the Anglicized one (i.e. pronounce the second
"s") first. What did surprise me is that it does not seem to consider
it a foreign word, just giving the source as "Middle English from Old
French". Obviously it has been around in English a long time, but still
I would have thought of it as foreign to a greater extent than such a word
as "adieu", for instance.
Charlie
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Charles Mitchell Academic Information Systems
Phone: 212 854-5023 201 Philosophy
si...@cuvmc.bitnet Columbia University
si...@cuvmc.cc.columbia.edu New York, NY 10027
John A Lambert
All I can plead is that I pronounce 'sans' the way I learnt it from my printer
father (i.e. my father who was a printer) 50 years or so ago.
Steve Cramer 542-5589
: I can imagine that someone might insert a schwa before the "l" in "apple",
: but I don't think I do. My best evidence is that my tongue is in the "l"
: position when I release the "p". It takes an effort for me to do it
: otherwise.
: --
Really? Most people pronounce /p/ with the tongue at the bottom of the mouth,
making the sound bilabially. Do you really have the tip of your tongue
behind your upper teeth when you 'plode' the 'p', or perhaps do you move it
up there immediately afterwards. If the latter, the schwa happens during the
outrust of air, whioel the tongue is not articulating in any position.
Steve
Glen Ecklund
>Glen Ecklund (gl...@slate.cs.wisc.edu) wrote:
I guess I can release the "p" with my tongue in either position.
What takes an effort is to keep it down for a significant period after
the release of the "p", as I do in "pull". "ae pull" has a vowel between
the "p" and the "l", but it's not a schwa. It's the vowel in "foot".
(I might pronounce "pull" without the vowel sometimes, too.)