All these years I've been saying "spachula" when it's "spatula"!

[Stijn De Jong]

Was writing something and when I wrote "spachula", I was surprised such an
easy-to-spell word squiggled.

Figuring I could work my way through the curvy-red stuff, I was dumbfounded
until I resorted to the right click surrender.

Wow. It's spelled spatula but pronounced spachula.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spatula

Given that, I never would have spelled my way out of the squiggles!

[Hen Hanna]

How have you been pronouncing the following words?

Tube, tuba, tuberculosis

Impromptu, In situ,

Petunia, Petula Clark

HH

[Peter T. Daniels]

How do you pronounce "natural"?

[Mark Brader]

Stijn De Jong:

> > Was writing something and when I wrote "spachula", I was surprised such an
> > easy-to-spell word squiggled.

...

> > Wow. It's spelled spatula but pronounced spachula.

Yes, the sound combination "t" + "yoo" often comes out as "choo",
especially in rapid speech. Of course "ch" is really "t" + "sh",
so what this really means is that "yoo" often turns into "shoo"
when it follows a "t" sound.


Hen Hanna:

> How have you been pronouncing the following words?
>
> Tube, tuba, tuberculosis
>
> Impromptu, In situ,
>
> Petunia, Petula Clark

In my dialect a majority of those have the sound "too", not "tyoo".
The only ones with "tyoo" are "tuba" and "Petula", and sometimes "tube".
--
Mark Brader | I hate to get pedantic [*], but...
Toronto | [*] I also lie a lot.
m...@vex.net | --Jerry Friedman

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[Whiskers]

My idiolect has no difficulty distinguishing the intrusive y consonant
from a ch. Spatyoola, not spachula (and so on). But I can imagine that
some people hear it differently.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

[David Kleinecke]

On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 1:39:17 PM UTC-8, Mark Brader wrote:
> Stijn De Jong:
> > > Was writing something and when I wrote "spachula", I was surprised such an
> > > easy-to-spell word squiggled.
> ...
> > > Wow. It's spelled spatula but pronounced spachula.
>
> Yes, the sound combination "t" + "yoo" often comes out as "choo",
> especially in rapid speech. Of course "ch" is really "t" + "sh",
> so what this really means is that "yoo" often turns into "shoo"
> when it follows a "t" sound.
>
>
> Hen Hanna:
> > How have you been pronouncing the following words?
> >
> > Tube, tuba, tuberculosis
> >
> > Impromptu, In situ,
> >
> > Petunia, Petula Clark
>
> In my dialect a majority of those have the sound "too", not "tyoo".
> The only ones with "tyoo" are "tuba" and "Petula", and sometimes "tube".

My English: not a single "tyoo" in the list. Ever.

[Jerry Friedman]

In mine they all have "too" /tu/ except "in situ", which is "in sichoo"
/In 'sItSu/.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Richard Tobin]

In article <Q_WdnWu7SujitSLF...@giganews.com>,

Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:

>Hen Hanna:
>> How have you been pronouncing the following words?
>>
>> Tube, tuba, tuberculosis
>>
>> Impromptu, In situ,
>>
>> Petunia, Petula Clark

>In my dialect a majority of those have the sound "too", not "tyoo".
>The only ones with "tyoo" are "tuba" and "Petula", and sometimes "tube".

In mine, only "tuberculosis" might have "too" (and it might have "t@").

All except "impromptu" and "in situ" are very likely to be palatalized.

-- Richard

[Don Phillipson]

"Stijn De Jong" <stijnd...@nlnet.nl> wrote in message
news:o9n6br$582$1...@gioia.aioe.org...

> Wow. It's spelled spatula but pronounced spachula.
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spatula
>
> Given that, I never would have spelled my way out of the squiggles!

This seems normal. The first time I pedalled my bike across Holland
I wondered whether all those signs BUSHALTE concerned a type
of asphalt unknown in England.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[Joe Fineman]

They are all "too" to this American, except "in situ", which has "choo"
as in "situation". In general, it seems to me that tu > [tS@] in
unstressed syllables (cf. natural, congratulate), but "tuberculosis" is
a conspicuous exception, perhaps because the t begins a word.

I gather that in some Irish dialects extend the change to stressed
syllables: [tSu:n] for "tune".
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net

||: If you're not paying for the service, you're not the :||
||: customer. :||

[Quinn C]

* Jerry Friedman:

Strange. I tend to say "seetoo", based on my idea of what it is in
Latin, and the only other pronunciation I'm pretty sure I heard is
"sityoo", but I'm not always sure whether I hear ty or ch (and
with some speakers, tr or ch).

Merriam-Webster lists sigh-too first, but allows for all
combinations: {sigh,see,si'}{too,tyoo,choo}.

--
It gets hot in Raleigh, but Texas! I don't know why anybody
lives here, honestly.
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.220

[Mark Brader]

Hen Hanna:
>>> How have you been pronouncing the following words?
>>>
>>> Tube, tuba, tuberculosis
>>>
>>> Impromptu, In situ,
>>>
>>> Petunia, Petula Clark

Mark Brader:

>> In my dialect a majority of those have the sound "too", not "tyoo".
>> The only ones with "tyoo" are "tuba" and "Petula", and sometimes "tube".

David Kleinecke:

> My English: not a single "tyoo" in the list. Ever.

Now that you say that, I think I was wrong about "tuba". Maybe it goes
both ways for me; I'm not sure now. For Petula Clark it's a personal
name, though, so it's not a matter of choice.
--
Mark Brader | "The only physical constants that can be measured
Toronto | are the ones in universes that contain physicists."
m...@vex.net | --Peter Moylan

[Mark Brader]

Hen Hanna:

> > How have you been pronouncing the following words?
> >
> > Tube, tuba, tuberculosis
> >
> > Impromptu, In situ,
> >
> > Petunia, Petula Clark

Joe Fineman:

> They are all "too" to this American, except "in situ", which has "choo"
> as in "situation".

"Situation" is English. "Situ" is Latin.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto, m...@vex.net
"The recent explosion of tourism has ruined the
planet Arrakis for me forever." -- Spider Robinson

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <zlr7v1lixxjg$.d...@mid.crommatograph.info>,

Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>Strange. I tend to say "seetoo", based on my idea of what it is in
>Latin, and the only other pronunciation I'm pretty sure I heard is
>"sityoo", but I'm not always sure whether I hear ty or ch (and
>with some speakers, tr or ch).

Many Latin words and phrases, especially those used in legal settings,
have fully anglicized pronunciations -- like "sine die", for example
("siney dye"). And of course those used in church settings,
particularly the Roman Catholic Church, have italianate "Church Latin"
pronunciations ("gloria in eggshell sis day-o").

For many such words and phrases, there are now three pronunciations in
common use: the traditional Law/Church Latin pronunciation, the
traditional School Latin pronunciation (learned by people who studied
Latin in secondary school before about 1960), and the modern
"reconstructed Roman" Latin pronunciation (learned by people who
studied Latin in secondary school since about 1980).

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wol...@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

[Mack A. Damia]

I used to have a cat named, "Spatula".

[Jerry Friedman]

On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 3:58:02 PM UTC-7, Joe Fineman wrote:
> Hen Hanna <henh...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 12:49:05 PM UTC-8, Stijn De Jong wrote:
> >> Was writing something and when I wrote "spachula", I was surprised such an
> >> easy-to-spell word squiggled.
> >>
> >> Figuring I could work my way through the curvy-red stuff, I was dumbfounded
> >> until I resorted to the right click surrender.
> >>
> >> Wow. It's spelled spatula but pronounced spachula.
> >> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spatula
> >>
> >> Given that, I never would have spelled my way out of the squiggles!
> >
> >
> > How have you been pronouncing the following words?
> >
> > Tube, tuba, tuberculosis
> >
> > Impromptu, In situ,
> >
> > Petunia, Petula Clark
>
> They are all "too" to this American, except "in situ", which has "choo"
> as in "situation". In general, it seems to me that tu > [tS@] in
> unstressed syllables (cf. natural, congratulate), but "tuberculosis" is
> a conspicuous exception, perhaps because the t begins a word.

...

How about "mature"? And "stupendous"? I think my rule is that
it's /tu/ in the first syllable and /tS@/ elsewhere.

Except when the "tu" isn't the first syllable because of a prefix, such
as "intubation /,Intu'beIS@n/.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 4:39:17 PM UTC-5, Mark Brader wrote:
> Stijn De Jong:
> > > Was writing something and when I wrote "spachula", I was surprised such an
> > > easy-to-spell word squiggled.
> ...
> > > Wow. It's spelled spatula but pronounced spachula.
>
> Yes, the sound combination "t" + "yoo" often comes out as "choo",
> especially in rapid speech. Of course "ch" is really "t" + "sh",
> so what this really means is that "yoo" often turns into "shoo"
> when it follows a "t" sound.

No, it isn't what this really means. "t" turns into "tch" when followed by "y."

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 6:49:42 PM UTC-5, Garrett Wollman wrote:
> In article <zlr7v1lixxjg$.d...@mid.crommatograph.info>,
> Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
> >Strange. I tend to say "seetoo", based on my idea of what it is in
> >Latin, and the only other pronunciation I'm pretty sure I heard is
> >"sityoo", but I'm not always sure whether I hear ty or ch (and
> >with some speakers, tr or ch).
>
> Many Latin words and phrases, especially those used in legal settings,
> have fully anglicized pronunciations -- like "sine die", for example
> ("siney dye"). And of course those used in church settings,
> particularly the Roman Catholic Church, have italianate "Church Latin"
> pronunciations ("gloria in eggshell sis day-o").
>
> For many such words and phrases, there are now three pronunciations in
> common use: the traditional Law/Church Latin pronunciation, the
> traditional School Latin pronunciation (learned by people who studied
> Latin in secondary school before about 1960), and the modern
> "reconstructed Roman" Latin pronunciation (learned by people who
> studied Latin in secondary school since about 1980).

*Goodbye, Mr. Chips* came out in 1939.

[Janet]

In article <l6iubcpguiu093bpv...@4ax.com>,
drstee...@yahoo.com says...

Sounds like one of the quarrelsome spitting and scratching kind :-)

Janet

[Jerry Friedman]

And except "institute", etc. Back to the drawing board.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter T. Daniels]

Stress is relevant. Compare "constituent."

[Quinn C]

* Janet:

Not if you believe Lorelai of "Gilmore Girls", who argued that the
difference between a fight and a spat is that while a fight goes
on and on, a spat can be ended using a spatula.

--
Who would know aught of art must learn and then take his ease.

[Will Parsons]

Garrett Wollman wrote:
> In article <zlr7v1lixxjg$.d...@mid.crommatograph.info>,
> Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>>Strange. I tend to say "seetoo", based on my idea of what it is in
>>Latin, and the only other pronunciation I'm pretty sure I heard is
>>"sityoo", but I'm not always sure whether I hear ty or ch (and
>>with some speakers, tr or ch).
>
> Many Latin words and phrases, especially those used in legal settings,
> have fully anglicized pronunciations -- like "sine die", for example
> ("siney dye").

The second word should be two syllables - sigh-nee die-ee.

> And of course those used in church settings,
> particularly the Roman Catholic Church, have italianate "Church Latin"
> pronunciations ("gloria in eggshell sis day-o").

I've often wondered when that became popular in English - I would have
thought that the traditional English pronunciation would be something like:
"gloria in exelsis dee-o".

> For many such words and phrases, there are now three pronunciations in
> common use: the traditional Law/Church Latin pronunciation,

Umm, the "traditional law" pronuciation is the traditional "English"
pronunciation, quite distinct from the Italianate "Church pronunciation".

> the traditional School Latin pronunciation (learned by people who studied
> Latin in secondary school before about 1960),

Which is the same, I believe, as the "law Latin" pronunciation.

> and the modern "reconstructed Roman" Latin pronunciation (learned by people
> who studied Latin in secondary school since about 1980).

When using Latin phrases in English, it's now more difficult than it was in
the past to decide among the competing pronunciations. Such is progress.

--
Will

[Robert Bannister]

For me, not fully, or at least not all the time. It's often more like
heavy aspiration after the t. "Tuberculosis" is an odd one that I often
pronounce with "t@" and no y at all.

--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[Will Parsons]

On Tuesday, 7 Mar 2017 5:58 PM -0500, Joe Fineman wrote:
> Hen Hanna <henh...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 12:49:05 PM UTC-8, Stijn De Jong wrote:
>>> Was writing something and when I wrote "spachula", I was surprised such an
>>> easy-to-spell word squiggled.
>>>
>>> Figuring I could work my way through the curvy-red stuff, I was dumbfounded
>>> until I resorted to the right click surrender.
>>>
>>> Wow. It's spelled spatula but pronounced spachula.
>>> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spatula
>>>
>>> Given that, I never would have spelled my way out of the squiggles!
>>
>>
>> How have you been pronouncing the following words?
>>
>> Tube, tuba, tuberculosis
>>
>> Impromptu, In situ,
>>
>> Petunia, Petula Clark
>
> They are all "too" to this American, except "in situ", which has "choo"
> as in "situation". In general, it seems to me that tu > [tS@] in
> unstressed syllables (cf. natural, congratulate), but "tuberculosis" is
> a conspicuous exception, perhaps because the t begins a word.

Quite likely.

> I gather that in some Irish dialects extend the change to stressed
> syllables: [tSu:n] for "tune".

In the speech of my Northern Irish cousin-in-law, "tune" sounds just
like "chune" to my ears.

--
Will

[Robert Bannister]

On 8/3/17 7:45 am, Mark Brader wrote:
> Hen Hanna:
>>> How have you been pronouncing the following words?
>>>
>>> Tube, tuba, tuberculosis
>>>
>>> Impromptu, In situ,
>>>
>>> Petunia, Petula Clark
>
> Joe Fineman:
>> They are all "too" to this American, except "in situ", which has "choo"
>> as in "situation".
>
> "Situation" is English. "Situ" is Latin.
>

"in situ" has been thoroughly absorbed into my English, but is more
"tyoo" than "chew".

[Will Parsons]

Only in internal unaccented syllables as a rule, though. It's normal for a
word like "spatula", to have a theoretical (according to the spelling)
pronunciation ['spætjələ] where the [tj] sequence gets replaced with [ʧ] in
ordinary conversation - thus [ˈspæʧələ].

In initial (and in general accented syllables) the [tj] either remains or
gets de-palatalized to [t], depending on dialect. (I think I regularly
maintain the palatalization in words like "tune" or "Tuesday".)

--
Will

[Jerry Friedman]

On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 4:45:42 PM UTC-7, Mark Brader wrote:
> Hen Hanna:
> > > How have you been pronouncing the following words?
> > >
> > > Tube, tuba, tuberculosis
> > >
> > > Impromptu, In situ,
> > >
> > > Petunia, Petula Clark
>
> Joe Fineman:
> > They are all "too" to this American, except "in situ", which has "choo"
> > as in "situation".
>
> "Situation" is English. "Situ" is Latin.

Yes, it's a bona fide Latin word, but I still give it an anglicized
pronunciation.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <eibtdj...@mid.individual.net>,

Will Parsons <wbpa...@cshore.com> wrote:
>Garrett Wollman wrote:
>> In article <zlr7v1lixxjg$.d...@mid.crommatograph.info>,
>> Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>
>>>Strange. I tend to say "seetoo", based on my idea of what it is in
>>>Latin, and the only other pronunciation I'm pretty sure I heard is
>>>"sityoo", but I'm not always sure whether I hear ty or ch (and
>>>with some speakers, tr or ch).
>>
>> Many Latin words and phrases, especially those used in legal settings,
>> have fully anglicized pronunciations -- like "sine die", for example
>> ("siney dye").
>
>The second word should be two syllables - sigh-nee die-ee.

That's not how they say it in the United States House of
Representatives, last I heard. But it's been a few years.

[Quinn C]

* Jerry Friedman:

As in "give two dogs one bona fide ensues"?

[Jerry Friedman]

On Thursday, March 9, 2017 at 10:37:26 AM UTC-7, Quinn C wrote:
> * Jerry Friedman:
>
> > On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 4:45:42 PM UTC-7, Mark Brader wrote:
> >> Hen Hanna:
> >>> > How have you been pronouncing the following words?
> >>> >
> >>> > Tube, tuba, tuberculosis
> >>> >
> >>> > Impromptu, In situ,
> >>> >
> >>> > Petunia, Petula Clark
> >>
> >> Joe Fineman:
> >>> They are all "too" to this American, except "in situ", which has "choo"
> >>> as in "situation".
> >>
> >> "Situation" is English. "Situ" is Latin.
> >
> > Yes, it's a bona fide Latin word, but I still give it an anglicized
> > pronunciation.
>
> As in "give two dogs one bona fide ensues"?

That's the idea. Fido agrees too.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

Probably, but it's not the only relevant thing. Compare "institute"
to "ligature" /'lIg@tS@r/, with about the same stress pattern for me.

--
Jerry Friedman

[David Kleinecke]

I haven't researched this but I suspect "-yure" versus "-ute".
Perhaps via French versus via Latin.

[Jerry Friedman]

That seems to constitute a useful conjecture.

> Perhaps via French versus via Latin.

Which is which?

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jack Campin]

>>>>>>> How have you been pronouncing the following words?
>>>>>>> Tube, tuba, tuberculosis
>>>>>>> Impromptu, In situ,
>>>>>>> Petunia, Petula Clark
>>>>>> They are all "too" to this American, except "in situ", which has "choo"
>>>>>> as in "situation". In general, it seems to me that tu > [tS@] in
>>>>>> unstressed syllables (cf. natural, congratulate), but "tuberculosis" is
>>>>>> a conspicuous exception, perhaps because the t begins a word.

>>>>> How about "mature"? And "stupendous"? I think my rule is that
>>>>> it's /tu/ in the first syllable and /tS@/ elsewhere.
>>>>> Except when the "tu" isn't the first syllable because of a prefix, such
>>>>> as "intubation /,Intu'beIS@n/.
>>>> And except "institute", etc. Back to the drawing board.
>>> Stress is relevant. Compare "constituent."

Every one of the "tu"'s in this article is "tyoo" for me (mainly
southern English with an admixture of New Zealand English and Scots).

>> Probably, but it's not the only relevant thing. Compare "institute"
>> to "ligature" /'lIg@tS@r/, with about the same stress pattern for me.

> Perhaps via French versus via Latin.

Not likely - if there were a relevant difference in etymology going
that far back, both sides of the pond would have preserved the
distinction. Instead it seems nobody has one: Americans mostly
drop the palatalization, otherE speakers don't. If there seem to
be inconsistencies in AmE, it's probably because the shift hasn't
finished yet.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07895 860 060 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[David Kleinecke]

I instinctively associated French with palatalization. It turns
that "nature" is via old French. My research stopped there.

[Quinn C]

* David Kleinecke:

I say insitityoot, but ligachur. I believe this difference is due
to the phonetic context.

Maybe the "ti" of "institute" holding the tongue in the "t"
position. Nah, probably it's the reduction to schwa that pretty
much forces "ch" in "ligature"; that's how Merriam-Webster sees
it.

--
The Eskimoes had fifty-two names for snow because it was
important to them, there ought to be as many for love.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.106

[Will Parsons]

I tend to agree.

> Maybe the "ti" of "institute" holding the tongue in the "t"
> position. Nah, probably it's the reduction to schwa that pretty
> much forces "ch" in "ligature"; that's how Merriam-Webster sees
> it.

I think the shwa and the change have a common origin in the accent.
At least in my speech, "ligature" is only accented on the first
syllable, thus causing the reduction of the last vowel to shwa and the
replacement of [tj] with [ʧ]. For me, on the other hand, "institute"
has secondary accent on the last syllable, thus preventing the last
vowel from become shwa and maintaining the [tj] sequence.

--
Will

[Will Parsons]

I doubt that French vs Latin origin has anything to do with it. No
doubt the reason "long" U is pronounced [ju] is because that seemed
like a reasonable approximation of the French "u" sound, but that
pronunciation was used for Latin imports (and Latin in general) too -
cf. "Ulysses".

--
Will

[Jerry Friedman]

How about "mature"?

--
Jerry Friedman

[Will Parsons]

How about it? Accent is on the second syllable, so [tj] is
maintained. Or, do you say differently?

--
Will

[Jerry Friedman]

I have [ʧ] in "mature" (and I don't have [tj] in any of these words).

--
Jerry Friedman

[Robert Bannister]

And there's no palatalisation in French (at least, that I'm aware of),
so I didn't really understand David's remark.

[Will Parsons]

Hmm - I'll have to admit that although I have a [tj] in "institute",
the de-palatized version is equally acceptable to me, and I don't
think I would particularly notice what version someone else was
using. Hearing somone say "matoor" on the other would definitely
catch my attention, though, and "machoor" probably would not.

--
Will

[David Kleinecke]

In my English 't' is just as palatalized in "mature" as in "nature"
but the first syllable in schwa instead of rhyming with "day". Yes,
accented schwa - as in "putt".

[David Kleinecke]

I am told that a certain Old French vowel was heard by
English speakers as "yu". So the palatalization seems to
really be an artifact of language borrowing.

[Jack Campin]

[palatalization or not of "tu-" in BrE and AmE]

>>>>>> Perhaps via French versus via Latin.
>>>>> Which is which?

>>>> I instinctively associated French with palatalization. [...]

> I am told that a certain Old French vowel was heard by
> English speakers as "yu". So the palatalization seems to
> really be an artifact of language borrowing.

So BrE happened to borrow all words incorporating "...tu..." from
French, and AmE didn't?

In the only examples I can think of in BrE where "t" followed by
that vowel is not palatalized, the spelling is different: "too",
"tool", "two", "toupee", "toucan", "tour", "tomb", "toot", "toute
suite". The spelling with "-tu-" always implies palatalization
no matter what the etymology.

NZE speakers break this pattern for words or names borrowed from
Maori. Nobody palatalizes "Turangi", even though they'll probably
get the vowels wrong.

[Will Parsons]

My guess is that Latin [u:] had already fronted to [y] by Old French
times, and no doubt the Anglo-Norman aristocracy, who tended to become
bilingual in Norman French and English, maintained the French
pronunciation of [y] in French words. The foreign [y] was never
adopted into English by the mass of English-only speakers, and [ju],
with both its palatal and high-rounded elements, would seem to be a
reasonable approximation to the foreign [y] in the huge number of
French words imported into English. This might have been helped by a
shift of an earlier Old English diphthong pronounced something like
[ew] to [iw]/[ju], making the substitution more likely.

--
Will

[Will Parsons]

Wait - you say "muh-tyoor", with the accent on the first syllable?

--
Will

[David Kleinecke]

"Much-oor". I think I accent the first syllable. But there is
usual uncertainty about introspective phonetics. Phonemically
/'məch.uwr/. But maybe /mə-chuwr/. I would need a sound
spectrogram before I could be sure. And even then ...

[Robert Bannister]

I see what you mean now, but I would have thought palatalisation might
already have been present in English before this new "yoo" entered the
language. I admit, however, that I am stumped for possible examples off
the top of my head.

[Jerry Friedman]

I have heard "matoor", and it did catch my attention.

Does "caricature" have a secondary accent on the last syllable for you?
If so, does that change the pronunciation?

--
Jerry Friedman

[Robert Bannister]

For me, the main stress is on the final syllable.

[Will Parsons]

On Monday, 13 Mar 2017 8:35 PM -0400, Robert Bannister wrote:
> On 13/3/17 11:43 am, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On 3/10/17 5:25 PM, Will Parsons wrote:
>>> On Friday, 10 Mar 2017 6:15 PM -0500, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>> On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 3:56:52 PM UTC-7, Will Parsons wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, 10 Mar 2017 5:42 PM -0500, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 2:36:41 PM UTC-7, Will Parsons wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, 10 Mar 2017 1:21 PM -0500, Quinn C wrote:
>>>>>>>> * David Kleinecke:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, March 9, 2017 at 4:04:15 PM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, March 9, 2017 at 11:51:09 AM UTC-7, David
>>>>>>>>>> Kleinecke wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, March 9, 2017 at 9:54:23 AM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-7, Peter T.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniels wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 at 10:32:02 AM UTC-5, Jerry
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Friedman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/7/17 7:43 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 3:58:02 PM UTC-7, Joe Fineman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:

...

Well, I definitely accent the word on the first syllable, and I think
I have no secondary accent on the final syllable, so [ˈkærɪkəʧə(r)] is
natural.

--
Will

[Robert Bannister]

I've had a rethink about that. I do accent the first syllable after all,
but often with a strong secondary stress at the end. Even when I don't
use that secondary stress, I still palatalise the t. That must be the
sound that is meant in books when characters say "Tch, tch", except to
me, it's more like a heavy aspiration after the t.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 10:15:48 PM UTC-4, Robert Bannister wrote:

> I've had a rethink about that. I do accent the first syllable after all,
> but often with a strong secondary stress at the end. Even when I don't
> use that secondary stress, I still palatalise the t. That must be the
> sound that is meant in books when characters say "Tch, tch", except to
> me, it's more like a heavy aspiration after the t.

So now we seem to have a third spelling for AmE tsk, tsk = BrE tut, tut. (A
voiceless alveolar click.) It's not a sound used in English, and it's not
the last syllable of "caricature," which is simply [tSr] (syllabic r).

[Adam Funk]

Is it linguistically interesting that English speakers have no trouble
making that sound (which IIRC is used in some languages) but don't use
it in words?


--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 6:30:07 AM UTC-4, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2017-03-14, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 10:15:48 PM UTC-4, Robert Bannister wrote:
> >
> >> I've had a rethink about that. I do accent the first syllable after all,
> >> but often with a strong secondary stress at the end. Even when I don't
> >> use that secondary stress, I still palatalise the t. That must be the
> >> sound that is meant in books when characters say "Tch, tch", except to
> >> me, it's more like a heavy aspiration after the t.
> >
> > So now we seem to have a third spelling for AmE tsk, tsk = BrE tut, tut. (A
> > voiceless alveolar click.) It's not a sound used in English, and it's not
> > the last syllable of "caricature," which is simply [tSr] (syllabic r).
>
> Is it linguistically interesting that English speakers have no trouble
> making that sound (which IIRC is used in some languages) but don't use
> it in words?

Actually all four of the clicks that occur in Khoi and San languages (and have
been borrowed into a couple of Bantu languages -- Xhosa and Zulu) are used by
English-speakers, but it's very difficult to integate them into the speech
stream as ordinary consonants. However, when you add the possible complications
-- they can be voiced, nasalized, or glottalized -- they're _really_ hard.

But since they were borrowed and integrated by at least two languages, there
can't be anything "mystical" about them. Miriam Makeba, anyone? (I don't
recall Nelson Mandela speaking anything but English in appearances shown
Up Here.)

[Robert Bannister]

You're right. I did mean "tsk" and voiceless alveolar click sounds about
right too. There is no [S] or [r] in my pronunciation of "cariature".

[Jerry Friedman]

On 3/13/17 7:16 PM, Will Parsons wrote:
> On Monday, 13 Mar 2017 8:35 PM -0400, Robert Bannister wrote:
>> On 13/3/17 11:43 am, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> On 3/10/17 5:25 PM, Will Parsons wrote:
>>>> On Friday, 10 Mar 2017 6:15 PM -0500, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 3:56:52 PM UTC-7, Will Parsons wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, 10 Mar 2017 5:42 PM -0500, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 2:36:41 PM UTC-7, Will Parsons wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Friday, 10 Mar 2017 1:21 PM -0500, Quinn C wrote:

...

(The above was corrected in a later post.)

> Well, I definitely accent the word on the first syllable, and I think
> I have no secondary accent on the final syllable, so [ˈkærɪkəʧə(r)] is
> natural.

OK, never mind.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Adam Funk]

On 2017-03-14, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 6:30:07 AM UTC-4, Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2017-03-14, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>> > On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 10:15:48 PM UTC-4, Robert Bannister wrote:
>> >
>> >> I've had a rethink about that. I do accent the first syllable after all,
>> >> but often with a strong secondary stress at the end. Even when I don't
>> >> use that secondary stress, I still palatalise the t. That must be the
>> >> sound that is meant in books when characters say "Tch, tch", except to
>> >> me, it's more like a heavy aspiration after the t.
>> >
>> > So now we seem to have a third spelling for AmE tsk, tsk = BrE tut, tut. (A
>> > voiceless alveolar click.) It's not a sound used in English, and it's not
>> > the last syllable of "caricature," which is simply [tSr] (syllabic r).
>>
>> Is it linguistically interesting that English speakers have no trouble
>> making that sound (which IIRC is used in some languages) but don't use
>> it in words?

I guess you could argue that tsk/tut is an interjection in an English,
so that click is an English phoneme that just happens to occur in only
one word!

> Actually all four of the clicks that occur in Khoi and San languages (and have
> been borrowed into a couple of Bantu languages -- Xhosa and Zulu) are used by
> English-speakers, but it's very difficult to integate them into the speech
> stream as ordinary consonants. However, when you add the possible complications
> -- they can be voiced, nasalized, or glottalized -- they're _really_ hard.

You mean they're hard to integrate into the *English* speech stream,
right?

> But since they were borrowed and integrated by at least two languages, there
> can't be anything "mystical" about them. Miriam Makeba, anyone? (I don't
> recall Nelson Mandela speaking anything but English in appearances shown
> Up Here.)

The borrowing bit is quite interesting.


--
They do (play, that is), and nobody gets killed, but Metallic K.O. is
the only rock album I know where you can actually hear hurled beer
bottles breaking against guitar strings. --- Lester Bangs