Pronunciation manual

[Don Phillipson]

Another such manual has been published,
You're Saying it Wrong: A Pronunciation Guide to the 150 Most Commonly
Mispronounced Words and Their Tangled Histories of Misuse, by Ross and
Kathryn Petras, reviewed at
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/10/how-to-pronounce-gyro/502481/,

Samples in this review were discouraging, e.g.
FOODS
açaí: ah-sigh-EE
bánh mì: bahn MEE
bouillon: BOOL-yen or BOOL-yon (with a very light l sound)
bruschetta: broo-SKEH-tah
endive: EN-dive or AHN-deev
gyro: YEE-roh
kefir: kuh-FEER
ph?: fuh
quinoa: KEEN-wah

Half these loan-words are still candidates, not yet recognized
in the world-wide English language however common in large
American cities. Endive and gyro are by contrast familiar
English words (whether individuals are familiar with endive
plants or not) and not peculiar to foods. The pronunciation
offered for gyro seems mistaken.and may have been confused
with giro=jaunt or Giro (the European savings bank), the old word
gyre, and the prefix gyro- as in gyrocopter.

All the other words sampled in this review are proper names,
not common nouns. It seems reassuring that (the authors
say) more than 40 per cent of Americans and Britons are
irritated by mispronunciation: but the review mentioned
no remedies.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[Peter T. Daniels]

The pronunciation given for "gyros" is correct for those who learned the
word from Greek restaurateurs (in Chicago where it was invented). The
spelling-pronunciation "jigh-row" derives from the labels on the packages
of frozen dreck that pass for gyros in the New York area. (Removing the
s is incorrect, cf. kudos.)

[Peter Young]

Whereas in BrE "Gyros" would mean gyroscopes.

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Ir)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

[charles]

In article <5978e3ca5...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>, Peter Young

by it used to mean the cheques you received each week from Social Security

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

[HVS]

On 06 Oct 2016, charles wrote

> In article <5978e3ca5...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>, Peter Young
><pny...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 6 Oct 2016 "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

-snip-

>>> The pronunciation given for "gyros" is correct for those who learned
>>> the word from Greek restaurateurs (in Chicago where it was invented).
>>> The spelling-pronunciation "jigh-row" derives from the labels on the
>>> packages of frozen dreck that pass for gyros in the New York area.
>>> (Removing the s is incorrect, cf. kudos.)
>
>> Whereas in BrE "Gyros" would mean gyroscopes.
>
> by it used to mean the cheques you received each week from Social Security

Close, but that's a giro - different spelling, innit.

--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng (30yrs) and BrEng (34yrs), indiscriminately mixed

[charles]

In article <XnsA699B7C2...@178.63.61.145>, HVS

true - but spoken it's the same

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Thu, 06 Oct 2016 18:03:52 +0100, HVS <off...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>
wrote:

Exactly. The cheques were Girobank cheques.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girobank

National Girobank was a British public sector financial institution
run by the General Post Office that opened for business in October
1968. It started life as the National Giro but went through several
name changes, becoming National Girobank, then Girobank Plc
(latterly trading as Alliance & Leicester Giro), before merging into
Alliance & Leicester Commercial Bank (now part of Santander
Corporate Banking) in 2003.

The organisation chalked up notable firsts. It was the first bank
designed with computerised operations in mind; the first bank in
Europe to adopt OCR (optical character recognition) technology; the
first bank to offer interest-bearing current accounts, and the first
bank in Europe to offer telephone banking, operating several years
prior to the start of Midland Bank's First Direct service. It is
widely credited for shaking up the UK banking market, forcing
competitors to innovate and respond to the needs of the mass market.


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Peter Young]

Not quite; they were "giros". I've had to educate the spilling chucker
about that word.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giro

[Jerry Friedman]

On Thursday, October 6, 2016 at 8:25:46 AM UTC-6, Don Phillipson wrote:
> Another such manual has been published,
> You're Saying it Wrong: A Pronunciation Guide to the 150 Most Commonly
> Mispronounced Words and Their Tangled Histories of Misuse, by Ross and
> Kathryn Petras, reviewed at
> http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/10/how-to-pronounce-gyro/502481/,
>
> Samples in this review were discouraging, e.g.
> FOODS
> açaí: ah-sigh-EE
> bánh mì: bahn MEE
> bouillon: BOOL-yen or BOOL-yon (with a very light l sound)
> bruschetta: broo-SKEH-tah
> endive: EN-dive or AHN-deev
> gyro: YEE-roh
> kefir: kuh-FEER
> ph?: fuh
> quinoa: KEEN-wah

It looks encouraging to me. I agree with all of those pronunciations
except for the ones I've never pronounced (bánh mì, kefir, pho), except
that I say "bouillon" with a normal /l/.

> Half these loan-words are still candidates, not yet recognized
> in the world-wide English language however common in large
> American cities. Endive and gyro are by contrast familiar
> English words

I knew bouillon as a food before I ever heard of endive.

> (whether individuals are familiar with endive
> plants or not) and not peculiar to foods.

"Gyro" is often pronounced differently when it refers to a food.

> The pronunciation
> offered for gyro seems mistaken.and may have been confused
> with giro=jaunt or Giro (the European savings bank), the old word
> gyre, and the prefix gyro- as in gyrocopter.

The /other/ pronunciation of the food, as in "gyroscope", is the
one that results from confusion.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 6 Oct 2016 11:57:38 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, October 6, 2016 at 8:25:46 AM UTC-6, Don Phillipson wrote:
>> Another such manual has been published,
>> You're Saying it Wrong: A Pronunciation Guide to the 150 Most Commonly
>> Mispronounced Words and Their Tangled Histories of Misuse, by Ross and
>> Kathryn Petras, reviewed at
>> http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/10/how-to-pronounce-gyro/502481/,
>>
>> Samples in this review were discouraging, e.g.
>> FOODS
>> açaí: ah-sigh-EE
>> bánh mì: bahn MEE
>> bouillon: BOOL-yen or BOOL-yon (with a very light l sound)
>> bruschetta: broo-SKEH-tah
>> endive: EN-dive or AHN-deev
>> gyro: YEE-roh
>> kefir: kuh-FEER
>> ph?: fuh
>> quinoa: KEEN-wah
>
>It looks encouraging to me.

The author will have to add "acumen" to the list. Donald Trump, in a
recent speech, said he uses his business "a-cue-min" when doing his
taxes.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Peter T. Daniels]

Do you talk about them often enough to have a pet name for them?

[Jerry Friedman]

The AHD gives both pronunciations, with Trump's second, and says,
"The pronunciation (ə-kyoo'-mən), with stress on the second syllable, is
an older, traditional pronunciation reflecting the word's Latin origin.
The Anglicized pronunciation with stress on the first syllable,
(ăk'yə-mən), was accepted as standard by the entire Usage Panel in the
1997 survey and was the preferred pronunciation of two thirds of the
Panelists. The older pronunciation was considered unacceptable by 40
percent of the Panel, suggesting that eventually this pronunciation will
fall into disuse."

I trust "Nevada" is on the list already.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter Moylan]

On 2016-Oct-07 02:39, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> The pronunciation given for "gyros" is correct for those who learned the
> word from Greek restaurateurs (in Chicago where it was invented).

Greek sellers of gyroi in Australia often use the spelling word "yeeros"
for the singular. (The second syllable rhymes with "boss", not with
"nose".) They got that directly from Greece, of course, although the
Greeks called the food "doner" at an earlier stage, a borrowing from the
Turkish. As nearly as I can tell, the name change seems to have happened
at more or less the same time in Athens and in New York City. Chicago
seems to have got it a couple of years later from a Milwaukee company.

The food itself is very much older, of course.

A lot of non-Greek people seem to say (some version of) gyro, in the
false belief that the 's' termination is an English plural marker.
Whenever I see "gyro" without the 's' I think of Gyro Gearloose.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Charles Bishop]

In article <q94dvb9guctii4fpc...@4ax.com>,

Was there anything regarding the hours of operation? "Banking Hours"
here used to mean 10(?) to 3, and woe betide you if you wanted to do
anything outside of those hours.

I don't remember when, or why it changed, but banks are open at hours
much more convenient now.

--
charles

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

I remember when banks used to be closed at lunchtime. That was before
"ordinary" people would have bank accounts. Wages were paid in cash. The
nearest most people got to a banking transaction was using a savings
account operated by the Post Office or by a building society.

>I don't remember when, or why it changed, but banks are open at hours
>much more convenient now.

The major shift to online banking has lead to closures of bank branches.
There may be pressure on opening hours.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Fage Yogurt advertises heavily on TV: FA-yay. Maybe that'll help with YEE-ross.

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Thursday, October 6, 2016 at 12:47:54 PM UTC-4, Peter Young wrote:
>> On 6 Oct 2016 "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> On Thursday, October 6, 2016 at 10:25:46 AM UTC-4, Don Phillipson wrote:
>

>>>> http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/10/how-to-pronou
>>>> nce-gyro/502481/,
>>>> [...]
>>>> gyro: YEE-roh
>>>> [...]

>>>>
>>> The pronunciation given for "gyros" is correct for those who learned the
>>> word from Greek restaurateurs (in Chicago where it was invented). The
>>> spelling-pronunciation "jigh-row" derives from the labels on the packages
>>> of frozen dreck that pass for gyros in the New York area. (Removing the
>>> s is incorrect, cf. kudos.)
>>
>> Whereas in BrE "Gyros" would mean gyroscopes.
>
> Do you talk about them often enough to have a pet name for them?

I guess a large percentage of the people [1] who speak about them
at all do so regularly, for professional reasons, and they might
well use the shortened form.

____
[1] Or at least a large percentage of all mentions of gyroscopes
in speech pertain to such people.

--
It gets hot in Raleigh, but Texas! I don't know why anybody
lives here, honestly.
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.220

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 7:12:46 AM UTC+3, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 2016-Oct-07 02:39, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > The pronunciation given for "gyros" is correct for those who learned the
> > word from Greek restaurateurs (in Chicago where it was invented).
>
> Greek sellers of gyroi in Australia often use the spelling word "yeeros"
> for the singular. (The second syllable rhymes with "boss", not with
> "nose".) They got that directly from Greece, of course, although the

Once at a Greek owned luncheonette I heard the Greek waiter call for
doner to the cook although the menu said "gyro".

I heard that in Greece doner is reserved for lamb meat gyro (as in Turkey)
and gyro refers to pork gyro (in my short visit to Greece I found pork gyro
quite common). I need confirmation for this usage.

[Tak To]

On 10/6/2016 10:25 AM, Don Phillipson wrote:
> Another such manual has been published,
> You're Saying it Wrong: A Pronunciation Guide to the 150 Most Commonly
> Mispronounced Words and Their Tangled Histories of Misuse, by Ross and
> Kathryn Petras, reviewed at
> http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/10/how-to-pronounce-gyro/502481/,
>
> Samples in this review were discouraging, e.g.
> FOODS

> a�a�: ah-sigh-EE
> b�nh m�: bahn MEE

> bouillon: BOOL-yen or BOOL-yon (with a very light l sound)
> bruschetta: broo-SKEH-tah
> endive: EN-dive or AHN-deev
> gyro: YEE-roh
> kefir: kuh-FEER
> ph?: fuh
> quinoa: KEEN-wah

Talking about the "correct" pronunciations for Vietnamese words
without mentioning the tones seems ridiculous.

--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 5:17:37 PM UTC-4, Tak To wrote:
> On 10/6/2016 10:25 AM, Don Phillipson wrote:

> > Another such manual has been published,
> > You're Saying it Wrong: A Pronunciation Guide to the 150 Most Commonly
> > Mispronounced Words and Their Tangled Histories of Misuse, by Ross and
> > Kathryn Petras, reviewed at
> > http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/10/how-to-pronounce-gyro/502481/,
> > Samples in this review were discouraging, e.g.
> > FOODS
> > a�a�: ah-sigh-EE
> > b�nh m�: bahn MEE
> > bouillon: BOOL-yen or BOOL-yon (with a very light l sound)
> > bruschetta: broo-SKEH-tah
> > endive: EN-dive or AHN-deev
> > gyro: YEE-roh
> > kefir: kuh-FEER
> > ph?: fuh
> > quinoa: KEEN-wah
>
> Talking about the "correct" pronunciations for Vietnamese words
> without mentioning the tones seems ridiculous.

?

Those are all English words. Lexical tone does not apply.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2016-10-06 16:25:08 +0200, "Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> said:

> Another such manual has been published,
> You're Saying it Wrong: A Pronunciation Guide to the 150 Most Commonly
> Mispronounced Words and Their Tangled Histories of Misuse, by Ross and
> Kathryn Petras, reviewed at
> http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/10/how-to-pronounce-gyro/502481/,

Samples
>

> in this review were discouraging, e.g....

The book looks absolutely awful, so I won't be reading it. However,
your post reminded me of something I've been wondering about for the
last couple of weeks, since watching the first episode of Indian
Summers. If you've seen this in English (as I expect it appeared in the
UK before it did here) you can perhaps shed some light.

Early in the first episode there was a scene in a train, before we knew
any of the characters, one of whom referred to Persephone, pronounced
in a way most of the others didn't understand. Then one of them said
Persephone again. In French this exchange made almost no sense, as I
don't think there is any difference between the educated and ignorant
ways of pronouncing Perséphone, and both people said it the same way,
so it wasn't too obvious what the correction was. I imagine that in
English one said "Percy phone" and this was corrected to "Per'sefony"
(sorry, I can't do IPA on this computer).

The problem we have with this series is that it has virtually no nice
people in it, Alice, the main character, and Leena, the woman who made
the correction, being about the only ones.



> --
athel

[musika]

On 11/10/2016 16:35, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2016-10-06 16:25:08 +0200, "Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca>
> said:
>
>> Another such manual has been published,
>> You're Saying it Wrong: A Pronunciation Guide to the 150 Most Commonly
>> Mispronounced Words and Their Tangled Histories of Misuse, by Ross and
>> Kathryn Petras, reviewed at
>> http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/10/how-to-pronounce-gyro/502481/,
>>
>
> Samples
>>
>> in this review were discouraging, e.g....
>
> The book looks absolutely awful, so I won't be reading it. However, your
> post reminded me of something I've been wondering about for the last
> couple of weeks, since watching the first episode of Indian Summers. If
> you've seen this in English (as I expect it appeared in the UK before it
> did here) you can perhaps shed some light.
>
> Early in the first episode there was a scene in a train, before we knew
> any of the characters, one of whom referred to Persephone, pronounced in
> a way most of the others didn't understand. Then one of them said
> Persephone again. In French this exchange made almost no sense, as I
> don't think there is any difference between the educated and ignorant
> ways of pronouncing Perséphone, and both people said it the same way, so
> it wasn't too obvious what the correction was. I imagine that in English
> one said "Percy phone" and this was corrected to "Per'sefony" (sorry, I
> can't do IPA on this computer).
>

Your imagination does not betray you. That is indeed the case.

--
Ray
UK

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 17:35:08 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<athe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>On 2016-10-06 16:25:08 +0200, "Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> said:
>
>> Another such manual has been published,
>> You're Saying it Wrong: A Pronunciation Guide to the 150 Most Commonly
>> Mispronounced Words and Their Tangled Histories of Misuse, by Ross and
>> Kathryn Petras, reviewed at
>> http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/10/how-to-pronounce-gyro/502481/,
>
>Samples
>>
>> in this review were discouraging, e.g....
>
>The book looks absolutely awful, so I won't be reading it. However,
>your post reminded me of something I've been wondering about for the
>last couple of weeks, since watching the first episode of Indian
>Summers. If you've seen this in English (as I expect it appeared in the
>UK before it did here) you can perhaps shed some light.
>
>Early in the first episode there was a scene in a train, before we knew
>any of the characters, one of whom referred to Persephone, pronounced
>in a way most of the others didn't understand. Then one of them said
>Persephone again. In French this exchange made almost no sense, as I
>don't think there is any difference between the educated and ignorant
>ways of pronouncing Perséphone, and both people said it the same way,
>so it wasn't too obvious what the correction was. I imagine that in
>English one said "Percy phone" and this was corrected to "Per'sefony"
>(sorry, I can't do IPA on this computer).
>

That seems highly likely.

It reminds me of an episode in a TV series in the UK, Coronation Street
I think, in which one of the characters, in a pub, had come across a
previously-unknown-to-him festival in a calendar. He obviously didn't
know what it was about because ISTR he was suggesting that it should be
celebrated in the pub.

He pronounced the name of the event as "Epy Fanny".
Known better as the "Feast of the Epiphany".

>The problem we have with this series is that it has virtually no nice
>people in it, Alice, the main character, and Leena, the woman who made
>the correction, being about the only ones.
>
>
>
>> --
>athel

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 19:02:05 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

>
>He pronounced the name of the event as "Epy Fanny".
>Known better as the "Feast of the Epiphany".
>

Is the epi fanny the center of a woman?

[Isabelle C]

Le 11/10/2016 17:35, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
[...]
> ... your post reminded me of something I've been wondering about for the

> last couple of weeks, since watching the first episode of Indian
> Summers. If you've seen this in English (as I expect it appeared in the
> UK before it did here) you can perhaps shed some light.
>
> Early in the first episode there was a scene in a train, before we knew
> any of the characters, one of whom referred to Persephone, pronounced
> in a way most of the others didn't understand. Then one of them said
> Persephone again. In French this exchange made almost no sense, as I
> don't think there is any difference between the educated and ignorant
> ways of pronouncing Perséphone, and both people said it the same way,
> so it wasn't too obvious what the correction was. I imagine that in
> English one said "Percy phone" and this was corrected to "Per'sefony"
> (sorry, I can't do IPA on this computer).

As already pointed out by Ray, that's indeed how the two women
pronounced "Persephone".

I downloaded the French version to hear how the dubbing managed to
convey that distinction.

The first woman said [pεrs@fon], which does sound bizarre, while the
second one pronounced [pεrsefɔn]. The first woman's most jarring defect
is to my mind, or my ears, not so much that she clearly ignores the
acute accent in "Perséphone" as that her "o" is closed in the last
syllable instead of being open.

--
Isabelle

[RH Draney]

On 10/11/2016 8:35 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> Early in the first episode there was a scene in a train, before we knew
> any of the characters, one of whom referred to Persephone, pronounced in
> a way most of the others didn't understand. Then one of them said
> Persephone again. In French this exchange made almost no sense, as I
> don't think there is any difference between the educated and ignorant
> ways of pronouncing Perséphone, and both people said it the same way, so
> it wasn't too obvious what the correction was. I imagine that in English
> one said "Percy phone" and this was corrected to "Per'sefony" (sorry, I
> can't do IPA on this computer).

They should have made one of them pronounce it as "Proserpina"....r

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Thanks Isabelle. Your ear is much better attuned to detecting
variations in French pronunciation than mine is (no surprise, of
course). What is curious, though, is that the Greek name ends in η,
which I would expect to yield é rather than e in French. In fact until
I checked I thought the French spelling was probably Perséphoné, except
that neither woman pronounced it with é at the end.



--
athel

[Isabelle C]

Le 11/10/2016 22:42, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
> On 2016-10-11 18:22:11 +0000, Isabelle C said:

[...]

>> The first woman said [pεrs@fon], which does sound bizarre, while the
>> second one pronounced [pεrsefɔn]. The first woman's most jarring defect
>> is to my mind, or my ears, not so much that she clearly ignores the
>> acute accent in "Perséphone" as that her "o" is closed in the last
>> syllable instead of being open.
>
> Thanks Isabelle. Your ear is much better attuned to detecting
> variations in French pronunciation than mine is (no surprise, of
> course). What is curious, though, is that the Greek name ends in η,
> which I would expect to yield é rather than e in French. In fact until
> I checked I thought the French spelling was probably Perséphoné, except
> that neither woman pronounced it with é at the end.
>

I think it follows the same pattern as Hermione*, Terpsichore, Calliope,
Europe ...
Those names were accented on the penultimate syllable in Greek and when
we French adopted them we did away with their last vowels, as we did
with Latin words with the same feature.

*I found out about the English pronunciation of "Hermione" thanks to the
Harry Potter films. I'd read the books before I saw the movies, but I'd
never thought that the pronunciation would be so different from the
French one!

--
Isabelle

[Robert Bannister]

I liked the series. Well, perhaps "liked" is the wrong word, but I found
it fascinating. As you say, there were few nice people and some of the
nicer ones became corrupted, and I imagine that was the whole point.
That before independence, India was a very corrupt place especially
among the ruling elite and their servants, but that even many of those
campaigning for independence were not immune. One hopes there have been
improvements in India, but Pakistan has a long way to go.
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[Paul Wolff]

On Tue, 11 Oct 2016, Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> posted:

>On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 19:02:05 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
><ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>
>>He pronounced the name of the event as "Epy Fanny".
>>Known better as the "Feast of the Epiphany".
>
>Is the epi fanny the center of a woman?
>

Upon the centre, I think.
--
Paul, too tired right now even to think of a good joke to cap it with.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

They've both got [m] and [n] in them. What more do you want?


--
athel

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Fascinating, yes, but it doesn't make one proud to be British.

> As you say, there were few nice people and some of the nicer ones
> became corrupted, and I imagine that was the whole point. That before
> independence, India was a very corrupt place especially among the
> ruling elite and their servants,

Almost certainly true. I had a few relatives who "served India", as
they put it. One of them only died in 1985, at the age of 97, and I met
him quite a few times. He did an honest job of work, however, as a
mechanical engineer for the North Western Railway, a job that left him
totally deaf. At the age of 95 he was still pruning his fruit trees,
and had to be persuaded not to climb up on a ladder to do it.

One of my great-aunts was the last person to receive a pension from the
Honourable East India Company ("Honourable" being part of its name, not
a description). She never married, and her father's pension continued
to be paid until she died, in 1962, though the company itself was
dissolved in 1874.

> but that even many of those campaigning for independence were not
> immune. One hopes there have been improvements in India, but Pakistan
> has a long way to go.


--

athel

[Quinn C]

* Peter Duncanson [BrE]:

> It reminds me of an episode in a TV series in the UK, Coronation Street
> I think, in which one of the characters, in a pub, had come across a
> previously-unknown-to-him festival in a calendar. He obviously didn't
> know what it was about because ISTR he was suggesting that it should be
> celebrated in the pub.
>
> He pronounced the name of the event as "Epy Fanny".
> Known better as the "Feast of the Epiphany".

When you get your new Epippen?

--
... man muss oft schon Wissenschaft infrage stellen bei den Wirt-
schaftsmenschen [...] das Denken wird haeufig blockiert von einem
ideologischen Ueberbau [...] Es ist halt in vielen Teilen eher
eine Religion als eine Wissenschaft. -- Heiner Flassbeck

[Tak To]

English words do not have accent/tone marks. Neither
the magazine article nor the title of the book claims that
these are English words. (You may be interested to know that
the book also contains brand names and geographical names.)

[Peter T. Daniels]

I'm not looking at a book, I'm looking at the list above. However, since
you -- or perhaps it was Don -- haven't instructed your system to handle
accented characters correctly, I see boxes where accents might be.

No, it was you. Don's original message has them all correct except pho.

They are indeed English words. A book about pronouncing them wouldn't
include them if they weren't. Many words are imported into English
complete with the accents they sported in the source languages.

[Robert Bannister]

So how do you spell "café" or "Zoë"?

[Robert Bannister]

Interesting. I only ever met ex-Indian-army people who were living
fossils of earlier times.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Zoe Caldwell (she won a Tony for *Master Class*) has no dieresis and
reportedly gets annoyed when people award her an extra syllable.

[Dingbat]

OK in UK parlance. To us, the Indian army started after independence whereas the armies you refer to were these two, both with 'British' in their name:

"The British Army was present in India, alongside the British Indian Army."
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/indian-army-personnel/

The Indian Army was all Indian. British people were in the British Indian Army as were some Indians. Operationally, they were like one army.

[Dingbat]

In 1947-50, when India was still a dominion. After 1950, there was just the Indian Army.

[RH Draney]

The spelling's also got an "H" in it, which the French don't use (other
than for decorative purposes)....r

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Yes. For what meaning of "correct" are "BOOL-yen or BOOL-yon (with a
very light l sound)" correct ways of saying "bouillon"? Although the
"-on" may present difficulties for speakers who know only English,
"bouill-" should not.


--
athel

[Peter T. Daniels]

AmE BULL-yon; when a similar word means gold bars, BULL-y@n.

Maybe they intend "short oo" as in "look," but before l it looks
like it ought to be "long oo" as in "pool."

[CDB]

On 10/13/2016 1:04 AM, RH Draney wrote:

> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> Isabelle C <isab...@lewanadoo.fr.invalid> said:

>>> *I found out about the English pronunciation of "Hermione" thanks to the
>>> Harry Potter films. I'd read the books before I saw the movies, but I'd
>>> never thought that the pronunciation would be so different from the
>>> French one!

>> They've both got [m] and [n] in them. What more do you want?

> The spelling's also got an "H" in it, which the French don't use (other
> than for decorative purposes)....r

And the torture of children. I listened to a YouTube performance of
"L'homme Armé" after David the O mentioned it here. The choir was
French, but I had to look up "haubergon", because I couldn't tell for
sure whether the "h" was mute or aspirate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjScoEz1b0g

(It's aspirate, as I expected in a germanic-looking word, although
modern French (per atilf) has only a version with soft "g", like the
English borrowing "haubergeon".

[Robert Bannister]

So, really, it's a different name.

[Robert Bannister]

I think I've heard them all from a full French pronunciation to
"bullion". Still, it's not a word many people would use in normal life.

[Tak To]

I'll assume that you don't know what "original message" means
unless you show us how you retrieved the article from the news
server at news.ablasani.net. As to which party is at fault if
a message is displayed incorrectly -- numerous netters (in both
aue and sl) have instructed you on the issues and I am disinclined
to waste my time again.

> They are indeed English words. A book about pronouncing them wouldn't
> include them if they weren't.

Why? There are many pronunciation guides in English about
proper and geographical names; and you yourself stated many times
that names are not words.

> Many words are imported into English
> complete with the accents they sported in the source languages.

And foreign words are often included in otherwise English text
without being nativized.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Hunh? I scrolled up the thread and found the message where Don first
posted the list.

Then I looked down the thread and saw where the accents first went away.

Do you have some rocket-science way of doing it that you prefer?

> > They are indeed English words. A book about pronouncing them wouldn't
> > include them if they weren't.
>
> Why? There are many pronunciation guides in English about
> proper and geographical names; and you yourself stated many times
> that names are not words.

Those aren't proper names. They're words for a variety of foods.

> > Many words are imported into English
> > complete with the accents they sported in the source languages.
>
> And foreign words are often included in otherwise English text
> without being nativized.

And then they're italicized.

[Tak To]

"Cafe" (when it is a word and not part of a name) and "Zoe"
(which is always a name and never a word).

Remarks, not necessarily in the order of importance.

- The diaeresis is not an accent mark, albeit a diacritical mark.
Ditto for the cedilla and the tilde.

- If a Zoë wants that her name to be spelled with a diaeresis, I
would try to oblige.

- Arguably the most famous Zoe in the world is the one in
Sesame Street. She pronounces it with two syllables but there
is no diaeresis for her name in print (in English).

- Dish names -- especially those appearing in a menu -- are
somewhat ambiguous as to whether they are names or words.

- I was sloppy: when I wrote "accent/tone marks" what I meant
was "what look like accent marks but are actually tone marks".
In any case, I'll admit that I was wrong and some English words
do carry accent marks. It is a separate issue as to whether
the accent-less version of the spelling of any particular word
is considered wrong.

[Tak To]

Not so according to Wikip
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Indian_Army

The article states that "Indian Army" was the official name of
the British Indian Army, which, along with the British Army in
India formed the "Army of India".

Btw, the distinction between the "British Indian Army" and the
"British Army in India" was a small clue in /Murder on the Orient
Express/.

[Paul Wolff]

On Thu, 20 Oct 2016, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx> posted:

>On 10/12/2016 7:33 PM, Robert Bannister wrote:
>> On 13/10/2016 3:56 AM, Tak To wrote:
>>>
>>> English words do not have accent/tone marks.
>>
>> So how do you spell "café" or "Zoë"?
>
>"Cafe" (when it is a word and not part of a name) and "Zoe"
>(which is always a name and never a word).
>
>Remarks, not necessarily in the order of importance.
>
> - The diaeresis is not an accent mark, albeit a diacritical mark.
> Ditto for the cedilla and the tilde.
>
> - If a Zoë wants that her name to be spelled with a diaeresis, I
> would try to oblige.
>
> - Arguably the most famous Zoe in the world is the one in
> Sesame Street. She pronounces it with two syllables but there
> is no diaeresis for her name in print (in English).

The word zoetrope has three syllables by my counting, and no diaeresis.
Mind you, it could have four syllables if someone wanted to give weight
to the final 'e'.
--
Paul

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Quinn C]

* Robert Bannister:

That's an interesting question.

Are "Ralph" and "Ralph" (different pronunciation) the same name?
Are "Steven" and "Stephen" (same pronunciation) the same name?
Are "Steven" and "Steve" the same name?
Are "Steven" and "Stefan" the same name?
Are "Patrick" and "Patricia" the same name?
Are "Pat" (short for Patrick) and "Pat" (short for Patricia) the
same name?
Are "Kit" (short for Katherine) and "Kit" (short for Christine)
the same name?
...

For the Japanese, it's clear: if not written the same, it's not
the same name. As for different pronunciation, that's less
important. As a Westerner, I find pronunciation more important, as
do you, apparently.

There's an actress named Zoie Palmer (who I just learned about
because she's in the cast of Dark Matter). I would pronounce her
name the same as Zoë or Zoey or Zoe or Zoé. If I wanted to give my
child a name that starts with Z and rhymes with "doe", I would
write it "Zo" or "Zow" (but the latter risks to be rhymed with
"sow").

P.S. The German pronunciation of "Zoe" would hardly be
recognizable to many of you ("Tso-eh"). It's closer to the Ancient
Greek version, while the English is close to the Modern Greek
pronunciation.

--
In the old days, the complaints about the passing of the
golden age were much more sophisticated.
-- James Hogg in alt.usage.english

[Tak To]

As I said, I don't feel like explaining how usenet works
yet again.

However, I will tell what I think happened based on my
investigation.

- Don Phillipson sent out a message that had no charset
specification (default being UTF-8) but was actually
encoded in ISO 8859-1 (or equivalent in the context).
Given that Outlook Express was used this is hardly
surprising.

- Google Groups received the message and for god knows
what reason interpreted it as ISO 8859-1 instead
of UTF-8. Thus, two wrongs made a right and all the
characters came out fine except for the ở in "phở".
This is because the o-letter with both an accent and
a tone mark is not possible in ISO-8859-1.

- Other well behaving news servers such as the one in
External September (the one I use) tried to interpret
Don's message as UTF-8. However since the byte sequences
were not valid in UTF-8, the "question mark in diamond"
character was substituted in.

----- -----

>>> They are indeed English words. A book about pronouncing them wouldn't
>>> include them if they weren't.
>>
>> Why? There are many pronunciation guides in English about
>> proper and geographical names; and you yourself stated many times
>> that names are not words.
>
> Those aren't proper names. They're words for a variety of foods.

"Big Mac" is a variety of food; so it is not a proper name?

In any case, I never claimed that _those_ (<bánh mì> and <phở>)
were proper names.

>>> Many words are imported into English
>>> complete with the accents they sported in the source languages.
>>
>> And foreign words are often included in otherwise English text
>> without being nativized.
>
> And then they're italicized.

Someone's neglect (or refusal) to abide by the convention
does not change a foreign word into an English one.

[Robert Bannister]

The problem seems to have a twofold origin. Firstly, it was difficult if
not impossible to do diacritics on a typewriter without having some keys
modified, but this difficulty should have gone away when home computers
appeared. Unfortunately, the first popular ones were made in the USA,
where there was little understanding of anything remotely foreign at the
time. Apple, almost from the beginning, was different in this regard,
but for a long time IBM and then Microsoft led the way, even today, many
people think of diacritics as merely decoration.

[Dingbat]

'Indian army' meant something else at one time but by the time I was born, the only thing 'Indian Army' meant to us was the 'Indian Indian Army' - the army of the Republic of India. At one time, each of the 3 British Presidencies in India - Madras, Bengal and Bombay had its own army. Indian Army was initially used by the British as an informal collective term for these three armies.

>
> Btw, the distinction between the "British Indian Army" and the
> "British Army in India" was a small clue in /Murder on the Orient
> Express/.
>

The 'Army of India' was a collective term for the 'British Indian Army' and the British Army in India.

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 20 Oct 2016 18:19:36 -0400, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx>
wrote:

> - Other well behaving news servers such as the one in
> External September (the one I use) tried to interpret
> Don's message as UTF-8.

Is there an Internal September news server for people who want insider
information?

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Peter T. Daniels]

I will not respond to the acres of bad faith and ill will displayed above.

[bill van]

In article <o00j0cp6ehqo29q24...@4ax.com>,

Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 20 Oct 2016 18:19:36 -0400, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx>
> wrote:
>
> > - Other well behaving news servers such as the one in
> > External September (the one I use) tried to interpret
> > Don's message as UTF-8.
>
> Is there an Internal September news server for people who want insider
> information?

And a Maternal September for those who want to be coddled?
--
bill

[musika]

On 21/10/2016 03:41, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Oct 2016 18:19:36 -0400, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx>
> wrote:
>
>> - Other well behaving news servers such as the one in
>> External September (the one I use) tried to interpret
>> Don's message as UTF-8.
>
>
> Is there an Internal September news server for people who want insider
> information?
>

You'll have to ask Ray Banana.

--
Ray
UK

[occam]

On 07/10/2016 13:37, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 12:12:46 AM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 2016-Oct-07 02:39, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>>> The pronunciation given for "gyros" is correct for those who learned the
>>> word from Greek restaurateurs (in Chicago where it was invented).
>>
>> Greek sellers of gyroi in Australia often use the spelling word "yeeros"
>> for the singular. (The second syllable rhymes with "boss", not with
>> "nose".) They got that directly from Greece, of course, although the
>> Greeks called the food "doner" at an earlier stage, a borrowing from the
>> Turkish. As nearly as I can tell, the name change seems to have happened
>> at more or less the same time in Athens and in New York City. Chicago
>> seems to have got it a couple of years later from a Milwaukee company.
>>
>> The food itself is very much older, of course.
>>
>> A lot of non-Greek people seem to say (some version of) gyro, in the
>> false belief that the 's' termination is an English plural marker.
>> Whenever I see "gyro" without the 's' I think of Gyro Gearloose.
>
> Fage Yogurt advertises heavily on TV: FA-yay. Maybe that'll help with YEE-ross.
>

By the way, Fage (fa-yay) in Greek means 'eat'. Hence 'Eat Yogurt' as
the brand. (Yogurt in Greek would be 'yaourti', but that would be too
different from the more familiar yogurt.

I have been recently puzzling out the difference between 'Kefir' and
'Ayran' (both yougurt drinks). The ingredients on the two bottles look
very similar. Anyone know the difference?

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2016-10-20 23:02:24 +0200, Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> said:

> * Robert Bannister:
>
>> On 13/10/2016 11:17 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, October 12, 2016 at 7:33:32 PM UTC-4, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>> On 13/10/2016 3:56 AM, Tak To wrote:
>>>>> On 10/10/2016 5:39 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>>> On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 5:17:37 PM UTC-4, Tak To wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/6/2016 10:25 AM, Don Phillipson wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>> ph?: fuh
>>>>>>>> quinoa: KEEN-wah
>>>>>>> Talking about the "correct" pronunciations for Vietnamese words
>>>>>>> without mentioning the tones seems ridiculous.
>>>>>> ?
>>>>>> Those are all English words. Lexical tone does not apply.
>>>>> English words do not have accent/tone marks.
>>>>
>>>> So how do you spell "café" or "Zoë"?
>>>
>>> Zoe Caldwell (she won a Tony for *Master Class*) has no dieresis and
>>> reportedly gets annoyed when people award her an extra syllable.
>>>
>>
>> So, really, it's a different name.
>
> That's an interesting question.
>
> Are "Ralph" and "Ralph" (different pronunciation) the same name?
> Are "Steven" and "Stephen" (same pronunciation) the same name?
> Are "Steven" and "Steve" the same name?
> Are "Steven" and "Stefan" the same name?

So far as Project Steve is concerned, all these are the same, as are
Stéphane, Stéphanie, Étienne, Stefan, István, Ésteban, Tapani etc.
(https://ncse.com/project-steve-faq)

> Are "Patrick" and "Patricia" the same name?
> Are "Pat" (short for Patrick) and "Pat" (short for Patricia) the
> same name?
> Are "Kit" (short for Katherine) and "Kit" (short for Christine)
> the same name?
> ...
>
> For the Japanese, it's clear: if not written the same, it's not
> the same name. As for different pronunciation, that's less
> important. As a Westerner, I find pronunciation more important, as
> do you, apparently.
>
> There's an actress named Zoie Palmer (who I just learned about
> because she's in the cast of Dark Matter). I would pronounce her
> name the same as Zoë or Zoey or Zoe or Zoé. If I wanted to give my
> child a name that starts with Z and rhymes with "doe", I would
> write it "Zo" or "Zow" (but the latter risks to be rhymed with
> "sow").
>
> P.S. The German pronunciation of "Zoe" would hardly be
> recognizable to many of you ("Tso-eh"). It's closer to the Ancient
> Greek version, while the English is close to the Modern Greek
> pronunciation.


--

athel

[occam]

On 07/10/2016 11:38, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Oct 2016 21:37:42 -0700, Charles Bishop
> <ctbi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> In article <q94dvb9guctii4fpc...@4ax.com>,
>> "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 06 Oct 2016 18:03:52 +0100, HVS <off...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 06 Oct 2016, charles wrote
>>>>
>>>>> In article <5978e3ca5...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>, Peter Young
>>>>> <pny...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 6 Oct 2016 "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> -snip-

>>>>
>>>>>>> The pronunciation given for "gyros" is correct for those who learned
>>>>>>> the word from Greek restaurateurs (in Chicago where it was invented).

>>>>>>> The spelling-pronunciation "jigh-row" derives from the labels on the
>>>>>>> packages of frozen dreck that pass for gyros in the New York area.
>>>>>>> (Removing the s is incorrect, cf. kudos.)
>>>>>
>>>>>> Whereas in BrE "Gyros" would mean gyroscopes.
>>>>>
>>>>> by it used to mean the cheques you received each week from Social Security
>>>>
>>>> Close, but that's a giro - different spelling, innit.
>>>
>>> Exactly. The cheques were Girobank cheques.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girobank
>>>
>>> National Girobank was a British public sector financial institution
>>> run by the General Post Office that opened for business in October
>>> 1968. It started life as the National Giro but went through several
>>> name changes, becoming National Girobank, then Girobank Plc
>>> (latterly trading as Alliance & Leicester Giro), before merging into
>>> Alliance & Leicester Commercial Bank (now part of Santander
>>> Corporate Banking) in 2003.
>>>
>>> The organisation chalked up notable firsts. It was the first bank
>>> designed with computerised operations in mind; the first bank in
>>> Europe to adopt OCR (optical character recognition) technology; the
>>> first bank to offer interest-bearing current accounts, and the first
>>> bank in Europe to offer telephone banking, operating several years
>>> prior to the start of Midland Bank's First Direct service. It is
>>> widely credited for shaking up the UK banking market, forcing
>>> competitors to innovate and respond to the needs of the mass market.
>>
>> Was there anything regarding the hours of operation? "Banking Hours"
>> here used to mean 10(?) to 3, and woe betide you if you wanted to do
>> anything outside of those hours.
>>
> I remember when banks used to be closed at lunchtime. That was before
> "ordinary" people would have bank accounts. Wages were paid in cash. The
> nearest most people got to a banking transaction was using a savings
> account operated by the Post Office or by a building society.
>
>> I don't remember when, or why it changed, but banks are open at hours
>> much more convenient now.
>
> The major shift to online banking has lead to closures of bank branches.
> There may be pressure on opening hours.
>

On a rare visit to my bank recently (in London), I discovered that the
main area where the tellers used to be was now occupied exclusively by
ATMs. There was only one HSBC employee, whose main function appeared to
be that of a gatekeeper, screening people and making sure they really
needed to speak to a human before letting them go upstairs where the
employees were. I am guessing that ATMs and online banking must account
for more than 50% of bank interactions these days to justify such a
transformation. The experience was alienating. I had to ask the guy
"where have all the humans gone?"

[occam]

In Greek, there would not only be a difference in the sound (Zo, Zoe)
but in the meaning also. Zoë ('life'); Zo ('I live').

[Janet]

In article <nucod9$6r5$1...@dont-email.me>, oc...@127.0.0.1 says...

http://planetlactose.blogspot.co.uk/2008/03/yoghurt-ayran-and-kefir-
traditionally.html

Janet

[Quinn C]

* Tak To:

> On 10/18/2016 4:51 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> On Tuesday, October 18, 2016 at 4:35:59 PM UTC-4, Tak To wrote:
>>> On 10/12/2016 4:30 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

[...]

[Tak To:]

That is clearly wrong. News servers don't interpret the byte
sequences, but leave them alone. In the past, they may have
stripped the 8th byte, but that would make UTF-8 impossible, and
it is, fortunately, a thing of the past.

So I'm pretty sure it was your newsreader software that did the
interpretation as UTF-8. I instruct my newsreader to interpret
postings in this group with undeclared character set as CP-1252,
because that is in practice the best educated guess, and Google
probably does the same - or maybe it tries several interpretations
and chooses the one that works best, a system that I planned to
have in the newsreader I wanted to write for years but never did.
Doing this is anathema to purists, of which you seem to be one,
but I consider it in line with the principle of "being liberal in
what you accept", and more generally, a convivial attitude.

In this case, I received the article from Eternal-September, and
saw it in the intended form (except for "phở"). If the default
doesn't work, I still have the choice to manually select a
different character set interpretation for the specific post.

>>>> Many words are imported into English
>>>> complete with the accents they sported in the source languages.
>>>
>>> And foreign words are often included in otherwise English text
>>> without being nativized.
>>
>> And then they're italicized.
>
> Someone's neglect (or refusal) to abide by the convention
> does not change a foreign word into an English one.

But regular use by speakers of English does, and that's clearly
the case with items English speakers regularly order in Vietnamese
food places, including bánh mì.

Which I often see written "Banh mi" where advertised. It's
actually a silly name, as it simply means "bread". Other shops
sell it, more appropriately IMO, as "Vietnamese sandwich".

--
Everyone gets one personality tic that's then expanded into an
entire character, in the same way that a balloon with a smiley
face will look like a person if at some point you just stop
caring. -- David Berry, NatPost (on the cast of Criminal Minds)

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Thursday, October 6, 2016 at 6:39:58 PM UTC+3, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Thursday, October 6, 2016 at 10:25:46 AM UTC-4, Don Phillipson wrote:
>
> > Another such manual has been published,
> > You're Saying it Wrong: A Pronunciation Guide to the 150 Most Commonly
> > Mispronounced Words and Their Tangled Histories of Misuse, by Ross and
> > Kathryn Petras, reviewed at
> > http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/10/how-to-pronounce-gyro/502481/,
> >
> > Samples in this review were discouraging, e.g.
> > FOODS

> > açaí: ah-sigh-EE
> > bánh mì: bahn MEE

> > bouillon: BOOL-yen or BOOL-yon (with a very light l sound)
> > bruschetta: broo-SKEH-tah
> > endive: EN-dive or AHN-deev
> > gyro: YEE-roh
> > kefir: kuh-FEER
> > ph?: fuh
> > quinoa: KEEN-wah
> >

> > Half these loan-words are still candidates, not yet recognized
> > in the world-wide English language however common in large
> > American cities. Endive and gyro are by contrast familiar
> > English words (whether individuals are familiar with endive
> > plants or not) and not peculiar to foods. The pronunciation
> > offered for gyro seems mistaken.and may have been confused
> > with giro=jaunt or Giro (the European savings bank), the old word
> > gyre, and the prefix gyro- as in gyrocopter.
> >
> > All the other words sampled in this review are proper names,
> > not common nouns. It seems reassuring that (the authors
> > say) more than 40 per cent of Americans and Britons are
> > irritated by mispronunciation: but the review mentioned
> > no remedies.

>
> The pronunciation given for "gyros" is correct for those who learned the

> word from Greek restaurateurs (in Chicago where it was invented). The

I think that is an urban legend

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 7:12:46 AM UTC+3, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 2016-Oct-07 02:39, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>

> > The pronunciation given for "gyros" is correct for those who learned the
> > word from Greek restaurateurs (in Chicago where it was invented).
>

> Greek sellers of gyroi in Australia often use the spelling word "yeeros"

That's Modern Greek.

> for the singular. (The second syllable rhymes with "boss", not with
> "nose".) They got that directly from Greece, of course, although the
> Greeks called the food "doner" at an earlier stage, a borrowing from the

gyros is a calque from döner meaning "turns around".

Arabic ša:wirma is the Arabic pronunciation of Turkish
çevirme ç = *ch* "to turn (transitive) around".

> Turkish. As nearly as I can tell, the name change seems to have happened
> at more or less the same time in Athens and in New York City. Chicago
> seems to have got it a couple of years later from a Milwaukee company.
>
> The food itself is very much older, of course.
>
> A lot of non-Greek people seem to say (some version of) gyro, in the
> false belief that the 's' termination is an English plural marker.
> Whenever I see "gyro" without the 's' I think of Gyro Gearloose.
>

> --
> Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
> Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Ross]

Obviously one is for unbelievers, and the other for members of the Master Race.

[occam]

:-)

[Charles Bishop]

In article <e84079c7-e30c-4d84...@googlegroups.com>,

It's the wrong form to be an urban legend. It's more likely to be a
false etemology.

>
> > spelling-pronunciation "jigh-row" derives from the labels on the packages
> > of frozen dreck that pass for gyros in the New York area. (Removing the
> > s is incorrect, cf. kudos.)

Charles

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Of course. In any case I think "invented" means "introduced to the
USA". I don't suppose he's ever been to Turkey.

It's like a lot of "Greek" cuisine: much like Turkish cuisine, but less
well prepared.

>
>> spelling-pronunciation "jigh-row" derives from the labels on the
>> packages> of frozen dreck that pass for gyros in the New York area.
>> (Removing the> s is incorrect, cf. kudos.)

--
athel

[Peter T. Daniels]

He has, however, been to Chicago. Will Ethel please go to Chicago and
tell the Greek restaurateurs that what they serve was not invented
in Chicago and, moreover, was imported from Turkey?

> It's like a lot of "Greek" cuisine: much like Turkish cuisine, but less
> well prepared.

How would he know? When was he last in Chicago?

From Ethel's "fascinating" anecdotes, his experience in the US seems
to have been a few weeks, or maybe a few months, in the Bay Area about
half a century ago. Yet he feels competent to pronounce on regional
US characteristics in the contemporary world.

[Janet]

In article <dfa1d097-7cc9-43ba...@googlegroups.com>,
gram...@verizon.net says...

> > >> The pronunciation given for "gyros" is correct for those who learned
> > >> the> word from Greek restaurateurs (in Chicago where it was invented).
> > >> The
> > > I think that is an urban legend
> >
> > Of course. In any case I think "invented" means "introduced to the
> > USA". I don't suppose he's ever been to Turkey.
>
> He has, however, been to Chicago. Will Ethel please go to Chicago and
> tell the Greek restaurateurs that what they serve was not invented
> in Chicago and, moreover, was imported from Turkey?

If Greek restaurateurs (or you) in Chicago believe gyro was invented
there, they and you are just plain wrong.

> > It's like a lot of "Greek" cuisine: much like Turkish cuisine, but less
> > well prepared.
>
> How would he know?

Maybe he's eaten Greek food in Greece and Turkish food in Turkey.
Greece and Turkey are common travel destinations from Europe.

Janet.

[Richard Tobin]

In article <MPG.3275ac2b...@news.individual.net>,

Janet <nob...@home.com> wrote:
>In article <dfa1d097-7cc9-43ba...@googlegroups.com>,
>gram...@verizon.net says...

>> He has, however, been to Chicago. Will Ethel please go to Chicago and
>> tell the Greek restaurateurs that what they serve was not invented
>> in Chicago and, moreover, was imported from Turkey?

> If Greek restaurateurs (or you) in Chicago believe gyro was invented
>there, they and you are just plain wrong.

Presumably PTD means that *something* was invented in Chicago, and
they call that "gyros", and the fact that something remarkably
similar with a name spelt the same is eaten in Greece is unimportant,
because -- I don't know.

-- Richard

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Of course, but that's too subtle an idea for the little man to get his
head around.



--
athel

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, October 22, 2016 at 1:03:20 PM UTC-4, Janet wrote:
> In article <dfa1d097-7cc9-43ba...@googlegroups.com>,
> gram...@verizon.net says...

> > > >> The pronunciation given for "gyros" is correct for those who learned
> > > >> the> word from Greek restaurateurs (in Chicago where it was invented).
> > > >> The
> > > > I think that is an urban legend
> > > Of course. In any case I think "invented" means "introduced to the
> > > USA". I don't suppose he's ever been to Turkey.
> > He has, however, been to Chicago. Will Ethel please go to Chicago and
> > tell the Greek restaurateurs that what they serve was not invented
> > in Chicago and, moreover, was imported from Turkey?
>
> If Greek restaurateurs (or you) in Chicago believe gyro was invented
> there, they and you are just plain wrong.

I doubt that you OR he have ever eaten proper Chicago gyros.

> > > It's like a lot of "Greek" cuisine: much like Turkish cuisine, but less
> > > well prepared.
> > How would he know?
>
> Maybe he's eaten Greek food in Greece and Turkish food in Turkey.
> Greece and Turkey are common travel destinations from Europe.

What relevance does that have to proper Chicago gyros? It's like saying
you can get proper pizza in Italy.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Because the stuff they offer in "authentic" Greek restaurants in the
New York area bears no relation to proper Chicago gyros.

[Tak To]

Google Groups acts as both a news server and a new reader.
AFAIK there is no encoding override for GG[1,2] so there
is no easy way to tell if the decision to interpret Don's
message text as ISO-8859-1 (or equivalent) was made when
the message arrived at GG or when the message was called
up to be read. GG's genearl usage pattern plus common
software design sense would put it at the former.

[1] I am not a regular GG user, so there might be settings
that I am not aware of.
[2] There is of course the encoding override in one's browser.

> So I'm pretty sure it was your newsreader software that did the
> interpretation as UTF-8.

Of course -- have I implied otherwise?

> I instruct my newsreader to interpret
> postings in this group with undeclared character set as CP-1252,
> because that is in practice the best educated guess,

And I have set my default (called "Fallback" encoding in
Thunderbird) to "Unicode". I chose Unicode because a message
in a common "Western" encoding is by and large still
quite readable when interpreted as Unicode, but a message
in Unicode might contain many code points outside of the
0-255 range and thus incomprehensible when interpreted in
"Western" encodings.

> and Google
> probably does the same - or maybe it tries several interpretations
> and chooses the one that works best, a system that I planned to
> have in the newsreader I wanted to write for years but never did.
> Doing this is anathema to purists, of which you seem to be one,

I am not sure what qualifies one as a purist in this context,
but my reason for choosing Unicode as the default is a purely
practical one.

> but I consider it in line with the principle of "being liberal in
> what you accept", and more generally, a convivial attitude.

I had no problem understanding what "a?a?" and "b?nh m?"
referred to without changing the encoding, so I did not
bother. I do not see this as being "illiberal ...".

I would laud anyone who would take the extra step to set
the read-encoding so that the quoted text in a reply would
appear as the o.p. intended. However, not taking the extra
step should not be construed as anti-social, right?

ote well that I have not made any complain about Don's message.
OTOH, PTD blamed me for messing up the quoted text.

> In this case, I received the article from Eternal-September, and
> saw it in the intended form (except for "phở"). If the default
> doesn't work, I still have the choice to manually select a
> different character set interpretation for the specific post.

----- -----

>>>>> Many words are imported into English
>>>>> complete with the accents they sported in the source languages.
>>>>
>>>> And foreign words are often included in otherwise English text
>>>> without being nativized.
>>>
>>> And then they're italicized.
>>
>> Someone's neglect (or refusal) to abide by the convention
>> does not change a foreign word into an English one.
>
> But regular use by speakers of English does,

The mechanism of nativization is not in dispute; the disagreement
is about the extend of the nativizations of these words
and indications thereof.

> and that's clearly
> the case with items English speakers regularly order in Vietnamese
> food places, including bánh mì.

Clearly the meanings of "clearly" and "regularly" in this
context depends on where one lives and one's eating habits,
is it not?

Isn't the need of a pronunciation guide an indication that
the words are not fully nativized? And isn't it usually the case
that the more nativized a word is, the more likely it is going
to drop the accent marks?

> Which I often see written "Banh mi" where advertised. It's
> actually a silly name, as it simply means "bread". Other shops
> sell it, more appropriately IMO, as "Vietnamese sandwich".

Can <bánh mì> also mean (that kind of) sandwich in Vietnamese?
Cf in AmE "hotdog" can mean either the Frankfurter or the Frankfurter
plus the bun.

[Peter Moylan]

OK, it appears that there might be a difference. Are you suggesting that
New York uses the Greek recipe (the one that has been used in Greece and
Turkey for centuries), and that Chicago has dropped the Greek tradition
and developed something else?

[Peter Moylan]

[Sorry about the poor snippage above. It was hard to decide what to omit.]

Actually, I'm pretty certain that GG did not interpret Don's message as
ISO-8859-1. The reason I think this is that we know from past experience
that GG has some sort of blind spot where ISO-8859-1 is concerned. When
a message has an explicit MIME header saying that the character set is
ISO-8859-1, Google ignores the MIME header and tries to interpret the
encoding as UTF-8, which of course corrupts the message. GG does insert
MIME headers on its outgoing messages, but it seems not to understand
MIME on incoming messages.

Don's message didn't have any MIME headers, but it did have
Microsoft-specific headers like X-MimeOLE. Possibly GG doesn't
understand MIME but it does understand the Microsoft proprietary
formats, in which case it would have assumed Windows-1252.

Windows-1252 is similar, but not identical, to ISO-8859-1.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, October 22, 2016 at 11:30:57 PM UTC-4, Tak To wrote:

> I would laud anyone who would take the extra step to set
> the read-encoding so that the quoted text in a reply would
> appear as the o.p. intended. However, not taking the extra
> step should not be construed as anti-social, right?
>
> ote well that I have not made any complain about Don's message.
> OTOH, PTD blamed me for messing up the quoted text.

Not you personally; your system, since the message was fine before
it went through your system and corrupt after.

Though now that you say you set your system's parameters yourself ...

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, October 23, 2016 at 2:21:52 AM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 2016-Oct-23 08:23, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 22, 2016 at 2:30:02 PM UTC-4, Richard Tobin wrote:
> >> In article <MPG.3275ac2b...@news.individual.net>,
> >> Janet <nob...@home.com> wrote:
> >>> In article <dfa1d097-7cc9-43ba...@googlegroups.com>,
> >>> gram...@verizon.net says...
> >
> >>>> He has, however, been to Chicago. Will Ethel please go to Chicago and
> >>>> tell the Greek restaurateurs that what they serve was not invented
> >>>> in Chicago and, moreover, was imported from Turkey?
> >>> If Greek restaurateurs (or you) in Chicago believe gyro was invented
> >>> there, they and you are just plain wrong.
> >>
> >> Presumably PTD means that *something* was invented in Chicago, and
> >> they call that "gyros", and the fact that something remarkably
> >> similar with a name spelt the same is eaten in Greece is unimportant,
> >> because -- I don't know.
> >
> > Because the stuff they offer in "authentic" Greek restaurants in the
> > New York area bears no relation to proper Chicago gyros.
>
> OK, it appears that there might be a difference. Are you suggesting that
> New York uses the Greek recipe (the one that has been used in Greece and
> Turkey for centuries),

I hope not -- it's really gross.

Proper gyros rotates on a vertical spit and the server carves
slivers vertically from it for each order as it rotates. The
stuff sold under the name "gyros" around here seems to be preformed
thick elongated patties that arrive frozen from somewhere and
are grilled on a griddle before being piled (neatly!) on a pita.

> and that Chicago has dropped the Greek tradition
> and developed something else?

I don't know what the Greek tradition may have been, but if it was
traditional and good, why would they have dropped it?

[Tony Cooper]

I find it very odd to think of a gyro as something that rotates on a
vertical spit. The meat used in a gyro is cooked that way, but I
think of a "gyro" as the product that is served: a pita wrapped
around meat with cucumber, onions, tomato, and a few other veggies
plus tzatziki sauce.

I have had "proper gyros" in Chicago, but they were not something I
consumed very often. I worked in the Loop and passed by numerous
places every day that sold gyros...particularly on Lake Street.

Those diminishing cones of gyro meat rotating under infrared lights in
the windows looked very unappealing. Some of those cones seemed to
last for weeks. There might have been as much "meat" in the number of
dead flies in the window as left on the cone.

The people that cut the meat and prepared the gyros looked as unsavory
as the glistening meat on the cone. Crusty aprons don't engender
trust in the carver. Today, people in that job all wear plastic
gloves, but that was not done in the 60s. Gloves and mops were not in
evidence in those places.

It was well-known in Chicago that the health inspectors really didn't
need to cash their city paychecks because their primary income was
from baksheesh.

I'm sure there were places where a good gyro - and one prepared under
sanitary conditions - could be had, but the problem was knowing which
place offered that and which didn't.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Janet]

In article <ba74b41d-e740-4280...@googlegroups.com>,
gram...@verizon.net says...

>
> On Saturday, October 22, 2016 at 1:03:20 PM UTC-4, Janet wrote:
> > In article <dfa1d097-7cc9-43ba...@googlegroups.com>,
> > gram...@verizon.net says...
>
> > > > >> The pronunciation given for "gyros" is correct for those who learned
> > > > >> the> word from Greek restaurateurs (in Chicago where it was invented).
> > > > >> The
> > > > > I think that is an urban legend
> > > > Of course. In any case I think "invented" means "introduced to the
> > > > USA". I don't suppose he's ever been to Turkey.
> > > He has, however, been to Chicago. Will Ethel please go to Chicago and
> > > tell the Greek restaurateurs that what they serve was not invented
> > > in Chicago and, moreover, was imported from Turkey?
> >
> > If Greek restaurateurs (or you) in Chicago believe gyro was invented
> > there, they and you are just plain wrong.
>
> I doubt that you OR he have ever eaten proper Chicago gyros.

Put that goalpost back.

You said:

"The pronunciation given for "gyros" is correct for those who learned
the word from Greek restaurateurs (in Chicago where it was invented"

You're defending THE WORD you claim was invented in Chicago.

> > > > It's like a lot of "Greek" cuisine: much like Turkish cuisine, but less
> > > > well prepared.
> > > How would he know?
> >
> > Maybe he's eaten Greek food in Greece and Turkish food in Turkey.
> > Greece and Turkey are common travel destinations from Europe.
>
> What relevance does that have to proper Chicago gyros? It's like saying
> you can get proper pizza in Italy.

as indeed you can.

Janet

[Janet]

In article <603b9f94-ada1-488c...@googlegroups.com>,
gram...@verizon.net says...

You're sinking fast.

_________________ <- New straw for Pete to cling to.


Janet

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2016-10-23 14:58:39 +0000, Janet said:

> In article <ba74b41d-e740-4280...@googlegroups.com>,
> gram...@verizon.net says...
>>
>> On Saturday, October 22, 2016 at 1:03:20 PM UTC-4, Janet wrote:
>>> In article <dfa1d097-7cc9-43ba...@googlegroups.com>,
>>> gram...@verizon.net says...
>>
>>>>>>> The pronunciation given for "gyros" is correct for those who learned
>>>>>>> the> word from Greek restaurateurs (in Chicago where it was invented).
>>>>>>> The
>>>>>> I think that is an urban legend
>>>>> Of course. In any case I think "invented" means "introduced to the
>>>>> USA". I don't suppose he's ever been to Turkey.
>>>> He has, however, been to Chicago. Will Ethel please go to Chicago and
>>>> tell the Greek restaurateurs that what they serve was not invented
>>>> in Chicago and, moreover, was imported from Turkey?
>>>
>>> If Greek restaurateurs (or you) in Chicago believe gyro was invented
>>> there, they and you are just plain wrong.
>>
>> I doubt that you OR he have ever eaten proper Chicago gyros.
>
> Put that goalpost back.
>
> You said:
>
> "The pronunciation given for "gyros" is correct for those who learned
> the word from Greek restaurateurs (in Chicago where it was invented"
>
> You're defending THE WORD you claim was invented in Chicago.

I coming to understand what he means. He seems to have first heard the
word in Chicago; therefore it was invented in Chicago.

>
>>>>> It's like a lot of "Greek" cuisine: much like Turkish cuisine, but less
>>>>> well prepared.
>>>> How would he know?
>>>
>>> Maybe he's eaten Greek food in Greece and Turkish food in Turkey.
>>> Greece and Turkey are common travel destinations from Europe.
>>
>> What relevance does that have to proper Chicago gyros? It's like saying
>> you can get proper pizza in Italy.
>
> as indeed you can.

Possibly not proper Chicago pizza, however.

--
athel

[Tak To]

This sounds plausible.

> Windows-1252 is similar, but not identical, to ISO-8859-1.

Yes, and I said "ISO-8859-1 (or equivalent in the context)"
in the beginning and and added the parenthesized phrase in
places that (I thought) needed it.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, October 23, 2016 at 10:58:42 AM UTC-4, Janet wrote:
> In article <ba74b41d-e740-4280...@googlegroups.com>,
> gram...@verizon.net says...
> > On Saturday, October 22, 2016 at 1:03:20 PM UTC-4, Janet wrote:
> > > In article <dfa1d097-7cc9-43ba...@googlegroups.com>,
> > > gram...@verizon.net says...

> > > > > >> The pronunciation given for "gyros" is correct for those who learned
> > > > > >> the> word from Greek restaurateurs (in Chicago where it was invented).
> > > > > >> The
> > > > > > I think that is an urban legend
> > > > > Of course. In any case I think "invented" means "introduced to the
> > > > > USA". I don't suppose he's ever been to Turkey.
> > > > He has, however, been to Chicago. Will Ethel please go to Chicago and
> > > > tell the Greek restaurateurs that what they serve was not invented
> > > > in Chicago and, moreover, was imported from Turkey?
> > > If Greek restaurateurs (or you) in Chicago believe gyro was invented
> > > there, they and you are just plain wrong.
> > I doubt that you OR he have ever eaten proper Chicago gyros.
>
> Put that goalpost back.
>
> You said:
>
> "The pronunciation given for "gyros" is correct for those who learned
> the word from Greek restaurateurs (in Chicago where it was invented"
>
> You're defending THE WORD you claim was invented in Chicago.

No, Janet. Your will lately seems to have become as ill as Ethel's or cahrels's
(though at least you actually read what I write). No one else, however
much they dispute the facts, has suggested that I was referring to the
word rather than to its referent.

> > > > > It's like a lot of "Greek" cuisine: much like Turkish cuisine, but less
> > > > > well prepared.
> > > > How would he know?
> > > Maybe he's eaten Greek food in Greece and Turkish food in Turkey.
> > > Greece and Turkey are common travel destinations from Europe.
> > What relevance does that have to proper Chicago gyros? It's like saying
> > you can get proper pizza in Italy.
>
> as indeed you can.

Maybe you've never had proper pizza, a New York specialty, or even the
development from it in Chicago that's so different it deserves a name
of its own (other than "deep-dish pizza"), though it doesn't have one.

It's reported that what's sold in Italy as "pizza" is more like what we
know as "focaccia bread."

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, October 23, 2016 at 1:16:48 PM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2016-10-23 14:58:39 +0000, Janet said:
> > In article <ba74b41d-e740-4280...@googlegroups.com>,
> > gram...@verizon.net says...
> >> On Saturday, October 22, 2016 at 1:03:20 PM UTC-4, Janet wrote:
> >>> In article <dfa1d097-7cc9-43ba...@googlegroups.com>,
> >>> gram...@verizon.net says...

> >>>>>>> The pronunciation given for "gyros" is correct for those who learned
> >>>>>>> the> word from Greek restaurateurs (in Chicago where it was invented).
> >>>>>>> The
> >>>>>> I think that is an urban legend
> >>>>> Of course. In any case I think "invented" means "introduced to the
> >>>>> USA". I don't suppose he's ever been to Turkey.
> >>>> He has, however, been to Chicago. Will Ethel please go to Chicago and
> >>>> tell the Greek restaurateurs that what they serve was not invented
> >>>> in Chicago and, moreover, was imported from Turkey?
> >>> If Greek restaurateurs (or you) in Chicago believe gyro was invented
> >>> there, they and you are just plain wrong.

> > Put that goalpost back.
> > You said:
> > "The pronunciation given for "gyros" is correct for those who learned
> > the word from Greek restaurateurs (in Chicago where it was invented"
> > You're defending THE WORD you claim was invented in Chicago.
>
> I coming to understand what he means. He seems to have first heard the
> word in Chicago; therefore it was invented in Chicago.

Wrong, of course.

> >>>>> It's like a lot of "Greek" cuisine: much like Turkish cuisine, but less
> >>>>> well prepared.
> >>>> How would he know?
> >>> Maybe he's eaten Greek food in Greece and Turkish food in Turkey.
> >>> Greece and Turkey are common travel destinations from Europe.
> >> What relevance does that have to proper Chicago gyros? It's like saying
> >> you can get proper pizza in Italy.
> > as indeed you can.
>
> Possibly not proper Chicago pizza, however.

Wrong, ignoramus.

[Janet]

In article <1e5e2a74-b6b6-41ec...@googlegroups.com>,
gram...@verizon.net says...
> Subject: Re: Pronunciation manual
> From: Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net>
> Newsgroups: alt.usage.english

>
> On Sunday, October 23, 2016 at 10:58:42 AM UTC-4, Janet wrote:
> > In article <ba74b41d-e740-4280...@googlegroups.com>,
> > gram...@verizon.net says...
> > > On Saturday, October 22, 2016 at 1:03:20 PM UTC-4, Janet wrote:
> > > > In article <dfa1d097-7cc9-43ba...@googlegroups.com>,
> > > > gram...@verizon.net says...
>

> > [quoted text muted]

> >
> > "The pronunciation given for "gyros" is correct for those who learned
> > the word from Greek restaurateurs (in Chicago where it was invented"
> >
> > You're defending THE WORD you claim was invented in Chicago.
>
> No, Janet. Your will lately seems to have become as ill as Ethel's or cahrels's
> (though at least you actually read what I write). No one else, however
> much they dispute the facts, has suggested that I was referring to the
> word rather than to its referent.

Then you expressed yourself very badly.
>
> > [quoted text muted]

> > > > Greece and Turkey are common travel destinations from Europe.
> > > What relevance does that have to proper Chicago gyros? It's like saying
> > > you can get proper pizza in Italy.
> >
> > as indeed you can.
>
> Maybe you've never had proper pizza, a New York specialty, or even the
> development from it in Chicago that's so different it deserves a name
> of its own (other than "deep-dish pizza"), though it doesn't have one.
>
> It's reported that what's sold in Italy as "pizza" is more like what we
> know as "focaccia bread."
>

I suppose it's possible that what you know as "focaccia bread" is
nothing like what Italians know as focaccia. But from personal
experience, in Italy pizza is not like focaccia. Focaccia dough uses
more salt and more yeast.

Janet

[David Kleinecke]

And, of course, US pizza was invented in San Francisco.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 23 Oct 2016 19:16:44 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>>> What relevance does that have to proper Chicago gyros? It's like saying
>>> you can get proper pizza in Italy.
>>
>> as indeed you can.
>
>Possibly not proper Chicago pizza, however.

There is considerable argument in Chicago about what a "proper pizza"
is. Many people associate Chicago and "deep dish pizza".

I am a "thin crust" pizza person, however, and have never considered
deep dish pizza to be the proper choice.

I have never been to Italy, so I don't know what might be served
there. However, one of the best pizzas I've ever tasted was served to
me in Copenhagen.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Why would GIs returning from the Italian campaign (with hazy memories
of tomato- and cheese-based wonders) land in SF? It's from New York!

[Tony Cooper]

I think that was a joke on David's part. Legend has it that chop suey
was invented in San Francisco during the 1840s, and his comment was a
riff on that.

Pizza, however, was popular in the US long before the end of WWII, or,
for that matter, WWI.

It's too long to quote here, but Wiki offers information on the
introduction of pizza to the US, and claims that pizza first appeared
in the US in the late 19th century with the arrival of Italian
immigrants in New York City, Chicago, Philadelphia, and St Louis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_pizza

The GI influence on the popularity of pizza is mentioned in the
article, but as a reason that the popularity spread from Italians to
the general public. GIs, as PTD might understand, did not return just
to New York. Some of the earliest pizza chains established were
Josie's in Newnan, Georgia (1943), Shakey's in Sacramento (1954), and
Pizza Hut in Kansas (1958).

[Quinn C]

* Tak To:

> On 10/21/2016 12:48 PM, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Tak To:
>>

>>> However, I will tell what I think happened based on my
>>> investigation.
>>>
>>> - Don Phillipson sent out a message that had no charset
>>> specification (default being UTF-8) but was actually
>>> encoded in ISO 8859-1 (or equivalent in the context).
>>> Given that Outlook Express was used this is hardly
>>> surprising.
>>>
>>> - Google Groups received the message and for god knows
>>> what reason interpreted it as ISO 8859-1 instead
>>> of UTF-8. Thus, two wrongs made a right and all the
>>> characters came out fine except for the ở in "phở".
>>> This is because the o-letter with both an accent and
>>> a tone mark is not possible in ISO-8859-1.
>>>
>>> - Other well behaving news servers such as the one in
>>> External September (the one I use) tried to interpret
>>> Don's message as UTF-8. However since the byte sequences
>>> were not valid in UTF-8, the "question mark in diamond"
>>> character was substituted in.
>>
>> That is clearly wrong. News servers don't interpret the byte
>> sequences, but leave them alone. In the past, they may have
>> stripped the 8th byte, but that would make UTF-8 impossible, and
>> it is, fortunately, a thing of the past.

> [...]

>> So I'm pretty sure it was your newsreader software that did the
>> interpretation as UTF-8.
>
> Of course -- have I implied otherwise?

Yes. Look up there, you implied that the news server
Eternal-September tried to interpret the characters and replaced
them with question marks. I can be reasonably sure it didn't,
besides my knowledge of the technology, from the fact that I
received the message from Eternal-September myself, and the á and
ì showed up properly. My newsreader wouldn't have been able to
guess that on the basis of question marks.

>> I instruct my newsreader to interpret
>> postings in this group with undeclared character set as CP-1252,
>> because that is in practice the best educated guess,
>
> And I have set my default (called "Fallback" encoding in
> Thunderbird) to "Unicode". I chose Unicode because a message
> in a common "Western" encoding is by and large still
> quite readable when interpreted as Unicode, but a message
> in Unicode might contain many code points outside of the
> 0-255 range and thus incomprehensible when interpreted in
> "Western" encodings.
>
>> and Google
>> probably does the same - or maybe it tries several interpretations
>> and chooses the one that works best, a system that I planned to
>> have in the newsreader I wanted to write for years but never did.
>> Doing this is anathema to purists, of which you seem to be one,
>
> I am not sure what qualifies one as a purist in this context,
> but my reason for choosing Unicode as the default is a purely
> practical one.

I see interpreting messages with no encoding as UTF-8 as a
purist's idea, because it's based on a written norm, while in
practice, I have yet to see any message in undeclared UTF-8. In
practice, at least German and English messages with no encoding
declared are always in one of the ISO-8859 or Windows Western
European character sets.

A long time ago, when I subscribed to some Japanese groups,
undeclared messages came in in one of the older Japanese encodings
(JIS or EUC); UTF-8 was very unpopular there.

>
> ----- -----
>
>>>>>> Many words are imported into English
>>>>>> complete with the accents they sported in the source languages.
>>>>>
>>>>> And foreign words are often included in otherwise English text
>>>>> without being nativized.
>>>>
>>>> And then they're italicized.
>>>
>>> Someone's neglect (or refusal) to abide by the convention
>>> does not change a foreign word into an English one.
>>
>> But regular use by speakers of English does,
>
> The mechanism of nativization is not in dispute; the disagreement
> is about the extend of the nativizations of these words
> and indications thereof.
>
>> and that's clearly
>> the case with items English speakers regularly order in Vietnamese
>> food places, including bánh mì.
>
> Clearly the meanings of "clearly" and "regularly" in this
> context depends on where one lives and one's eating habits,
> is it not?

By this logic, you could ask if "crumpet" is an English word.
(Maybe someone can come up with a better example.)

> Isn't the need of a pronunciation guide an indication that
> the words are not fully nativized? And isn't it usually the case
> that the more nativized a word is, the more likely it is going
> to drop the accent marks?

I agree, and mentioned that in my experience, banh mi and pho do
often appear without accent, or the latter in the simplified
version "pho'". We recently get more and more punny restaurant
names like "Pho real". And that even here where accents are a part
of the most common local language, French.

>> Which I often see written "Banh mi" where advertised. It's
>> actually a silly name, as it simply means "bread". Other shops
>> sell it, more appropriately IMO, as "Vietnamese sandwich".
>
> Can <bánh mì> also mean (that kind of) sandwich in Vietnamese?

I think so; after all, it's the most common form of eating bread
for them.

> Cf in AmE "hotdog" can mean either the Frankfurter or the Frankfurter
> plus the bun.

The full name of a specific kind of sandwich would be further
specified. I don't know any of them by heart, so copy as an
example from Wikipedia "bánh mì thịt nguội".

--
It gets hot in Raleigh, but Texas! I don't know why anybody
lives here, honestly.
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.220

[Quinn C]

* occam:

> On 20/10/2016 23:02, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Robert Bannister:
>>
>>> On 13/10/2016 11:17 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

>>>> Zoe Caldwell (she won a Tony for *Master Class*) has no dieresis and
>>>> reportedly gets annoyed when people award her an extra syllable.
>>>
>>> So, really, it's a different name.
>>
>> That's an interesting question.
>>
>> Are "Ralph" and "Ralph" (different pronunciation) the same name?
>> Are "Steven" and "Stephen" (same pronunciation) the same name?
>> Are "Steven" and "Steve" the same name?
>> Are "Steven" and "Stefan" the same name?
>> Are "Patrick" and "Patricia" the same name?
>> Are "Pat" (short for Patrick) and "Pat" (short for Patricia) the
>> same name?
>> Are "Kit" (short for Katherine) and "Kit" (short for Christine)
>> the same name?
>> ...
>>
>> [...]
>> There's an actress named Zoie Palmer (who I just learned about
>> because she's in the cast of Dark Matter). I would pronounce her
>> name the same as Zoë or Zoey or Zoe or Zoé. If I wanted to give my
>> child a name that starts with Z and rhymes with "doe", I would
>> write it "Zo" or "Zow" (but the latter risks to be rhymed with
>> "sow").
>
> In Greek, there would not only be a difference in the sound (Zo, Zoe)
> but in the meaning also. Zoë ('life'); Zo ('I live').

This opens more cans of worms - what about names with the same
meaning, but etymologically unrelated (say, Victoria and Nike)?
What about names with the same sound, but a different intended
meaning?

--
Java is the SUV of programming tools.
A project done in Java will cost 5 times as much, take twice as
long, and be harder to maintain than a project done in a
scripting language such as PHP or Perl. - Philip Greenspun

[Quinn C]

* Quinn C:

> We recently get more and more punny restaurant
> names like "Pho real".

If I would open one, I'd consider "Pho ami".

Not sure if "Pho Pa" would be understood ...

--
Microsoft designed a user-friendly car:
instead of the oil, alternator, gas and engine
warning lights it has just one: "General Car Fault"

[Richard Bollard]

I think those are similar to what we call "kebbe". A Lebanese dish.
The meat is kind of massaged onto skewers or formed free-hand. The
massaging changes the texture of the proteins.

There is often a choices between souvlaki and gyros. The souvlaki will
have individual portions of meat cooked on a skewer. The gyros has the
sliced meat.
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

[Peter Moylan]

That's the way they do it here, and I'm pretty certain that that was
copied from Greece when we got the huge wave of Greek immigrants in the
1950s. And it's also the way the Turkish kebab places do it, so it
sounds as if Chicago has followed the older tradition.

> The stuff sold under the name "gyros" around here seems to be
> preformed thick elongated patties that arrive frozen from somewhere
> and are grilled on a griddle before being piled (neatly!) on a pita.

OK, that's where the difference lies then. I don't think anyone else
would do it that way.

Now all we need to find out is, when they invented the gyros in Chicago
in 1965, they managed to come up with something that's apparently
identical to what was already known elsewhere.

[Peter Moylan]

On 2016-Oct-24 11:41, Quinn C wrote:
> * Quinn C:
>
>> We recently get more and more punny restaurant
>> names like "Pho real".
>
> If I would open one, I'd consider "Pho ami".
>
> Not sure if "Pho Pa" would be understood ...

"Shin Wah" seems to be a popular name for Chinese restaurants in Australia.