"With summer upon us..."

[Arcadian Rises]

Does "summer upon us" mean "summer behind us"?
Is this a kind of an old-fashioned phrase?

I don't think context is crucial, but if it is, I shall provide it.
As always, I'm very grateful for your comments.

[James Hogg]

It should mean that summer has recently come to us.

--
James

[Arcadian Rises]

Then, I believe this article quoted below was written by someone in
the southern hemisphere:

<With summer upon us, it’s exciting to see the reemergence of some of
our favorite produce, including stone fruit, peppers, sweet, juicy
melons, and succulent strawberries. But what if the arrival of these
crops each summer were to come to an end?>

http://www.kitchendaily.com/read/19-crops-would-disappear-without-bees?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-nb%7Cdl4%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D207396

[Harrison Hill]

I agree. We have just noticed that summer is overhead.

[Guy Barry]

"Arcadian Rises" wrote in message
news:641f211f-7ab0-450f...@i14g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...

> Does "summer upon us" mean "summer behind us"?

Not to me. It means that summer has arrived. At the moment autumn is upon
us here in Britain (those of you who call it "fall" or live in the southern
hemisphere will have other ideas).

> Is this a kind of an old-fashioned phrase?

A little bit literary, but I wouldn't call it old-fashioned.

> I don't think context is crucial, but if it is, I shall provide it.

It would be interesting if someone's saying it in September.

--
Guy Barry

[Peter Brooks]

On Sep 24, 3:17 pm, "Guy Barry" <guy.ba...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> "Arcadian Rises"  wrote in message
>
> news:641f211f-7ab0-450f...@i14g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Does "summer upon us" mean "summer behind us"?
>
> Not to me.  It means that summer has arrived.  At the moment autumn is upon
> us here in Britain (those of you who call it "fall" or live in the southern
> hemisphere will have other ideas).
>
> > Is this a kind of an old-fashioned phrase?
>
> A little bit literary, but I wouldn't call it old-fashioned.
>

I think it echoes Ecclesiastes 9:12

"
For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an
evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the
sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon
them.
" [KJV]

[Guy Barry]

"Arcadian Rises" wrote in message

news:96e145ac-950d-4e1e...@r7g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...

> Then, I believe this article quoted below was written by someone in
> the southern hemisphere:

> <With summer upon us, it’s exciting to see the reemergence of some of
> our favorite produce, including stone fruit, peppers, sweet, juicy
> melons, and succulent strawberries. But what if the arrival of these
> crops each summer were to come to an end?>

> http://www.kitchendaily.com/read/19-crops-would-disappear-without-bees?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-nb%7Cdl4%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D207396

I think the meaning there is "when summer arrives" rather than "now that
summer has arrived".

--
Guy Barry

[Arcadian Rises]

On Sep 24, 9:57 am, "Guy Barry" <guy.ba...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> "Arcadian Rises"  wrote in message
>
> news:96e145ac-950d-4e1e...@r7g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Then, I believe this article quoted below was written by someone in
> > the southern hemisphere:
> > <With summer upon us, it’s exciting to see the reemergence of some of
> > our favorite produce, including stone fruit, peppers, sweet, juicy
> > melons, and succulent strawberries. But what if the arrival of these
> > crops each summer were to come to an end?>

> >http://www.kitchendaily.com/read/19-crops-would-disappear-without-bee...

>
> I think the meaning there is "when summer arrives" rather than "now that
> summer has arrived".
>
> --
> Guy Barry

Or, perhaps it's an old article that was recently recycled without any
updates or editing?

[Arcadian Rises]

If you really want to go that far, the word "summer" is also mentioned
in the Bible, numerous times, e.g.
Psalm 47:17:

"You have fixed all the boundaries of the earth; you have made summer
and winter"

but I prefer the less remote echo to the song "In the summer time,
when the weather in fine"

[tony cooper]

After many days of very hot weather here, the temperature is down
today. It was rather chilly this morning.

One could say that "fall is upon us".

It isn't, though. It's a brief cold front passing through.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Don Phillipson]

On Sep 24, 9:57 am, "Guy Barry" <guy.ba...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> "Arcadian Rises" wrote in message
>
> news:96e145ac-950d-4e1e...@r7g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Then, I believe this article quoted below was written by someone in
> > the southern hemisphere:
> > <With summer upon us, it�s exciting to see the reemergence of some of
> > our favorite produce, including stone fruit, peppers, sweet, juicy
> > melons, and succulent strawberries. But what if the arrival of these
> > crops each summer were to come to an end?>
> >http://www.kitchendaily.com/read/19-crops-would-disappear-without-bee...
>
> I think the meaning there is "when summer arrives" rather than "now that
> summer has arrived".

"Arcadian Rises" <Arcadi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:00fd8f36-f789-422d...@k6g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...

> Or, perhaps it's an old article that was recently recycled without any
> updates or editing?

No: the author either (a) misunderstands the phrase or (b) culptably
believes these fruits arrive with the summer rather than towards its
middle or end.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[Guy Barry]

"Don Phillipson" wrote in message news:k3q20b$2il$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

> No: the author either (a) misunderstands the phrase or (b) culptably
> believes these fruits arrive with the summer rather than towards its
> middle or end.

Here in Britain, strawberries arrive with the summer. The others aren't
cultivated here as far as I know.

--
Guy Barry

[John Varela]

On Mon, 24 Sep 2012 12:48:33 UTC, Arcadian Rises
<Arcadi...@aol.com> wrote:

> On Sep 24, 8:32�am, James Hogg <Jas.H...@gOUTmail.com> wrote:
> > Arcadian Rises wrote:
> > > Does "summer upon us" mean "summer behind us"?
> > > Is this a kind of an old-fashioned phrase?
> >
> > > I don't think context is crucial, but if it is, I shall provide it.
> > > As always, I'm very grateful for your comments.
> >
> > It should mean that summer has recently come to us.
> >
> > --
> > James
>
> Then, I believe this article quoted below was written by someone in
> the southern hemisphere:

Why do you think that? When was the article published? Summer has
just ended, so the article was presumably written in early or
mid-summer. It depends on where you are, but we start seeing the
cited produce by June or July.

> <With summer upon us, it s exciting to see the reemergence of some of
> our favorite produce, including stone fruit, peppers, sweet, juicy
> melons, and succulent strawberries. But what if the arrival of these
> crops each summer were to come to an end?>
>
> http://www.kitchendaily.com/read/19-crops-would-disappear-without-bees?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-nb%7Cdl4%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D207396

--
John Varela

Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and
murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure
wind. -- George Orwell

[Mike L]

You're lucky. The season's clearly turned here in Blighty.

--
Mike.

[R H Draney]

Arcadian Rises filted:

>
>If you really want to go that far, the word "summer" is also mentioned
>in the Bible, numerous times, e.g.
>Psalm 47:17:
>
>"You have fixed all the boundaries of the earth; you have made summer
>and winter"
>
>but I prefer the less remote echo to the song "In the summer time,
>when the weather in fine"

My turn:

End of the spring and here she comes back
Hi Hi Hi Hi there
Them summer days, those summer days

That's when I had most of my fun, back
high high high high there
Them summer days, those summer days

I "cloud nine" when I want to
Out of school, yeah
County fair in the country sun
And everything, it's true, ooh yeah

Hot fun in the summertime
Hot fun in the summertime
Hot fun in the summertime
Hot fun in the summertime

....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Our present wet and windy weather has been attributed to tropical storm
Nadine. I think the connection must be very indirect because Nadine is
currently performing pirouettes off the west coast of Africa at about 30
degN. Blighty is 50+ degN.
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/graphics_at4+shtml/203822.shtml?5-daynl?large#contents


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Steve Hayes]

On Mon, 24 Sep 2012 05:48:33 -0700 (PDT), Arcadian Rises
<Arcadi...@aol.com> wrote:

>Then, I believe this article quoted below was written by someone in
>the southern hemisphere:
>
><With summer upon us, it’s exciting to see the reemergence of some of
>our favorite produce, including stone fruit, peppers, sweet, juicy
>melons, and succulent strawberries. But what if the arrival of these
>crops each summer were to come to an end?>

That would depend on when it was written.

If it was written in November/December, yes, it would be likely to be someone
in the southern hemisphere, but if it were written in June or July, then
someone in the northern hemisphere could more easily be blamed.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Steve Hayes]

On Mon, 24 Sep 2012 17:46:52 +0100, "Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk>
wrote:

And here strawberries have been cheap and plentiful for the last six weeks or
so, and spring has barely arrived.

I would say that spring is upon us, because the trees turning green, and
strawberries are now more plentiful than avocados in the shops.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <pcr068lqge14oqp10...@4ax.com>, tony cooper

Can I get enough people together to make a sizable mob (pitchforks and
flaming torches optional) to surround and make fun of those people
(usually news people who are looking for a "hook" for a particular day)
who confidently assert that spring, summer, fall or winter are "here" just
because it's the day of an equinox? None of the seasons arrive with that
sort of regularity, but are defined by a change in climate (or weather,
I'm not sure).

The sign up sheet is on the table over there, Igor has the pitchforks and
torches.

--
charles

[Mark Brader]

Charles Bishop:

> None of the seasons arrive with that sort of regularity, but are
> defined by a change in climate (or weather, I'm not sure).

For me it's impossible for "none" to take a "but <verb>" clause.
I would've said "they are defined", with a colon or semicolon
preceding it.
--
Mark Brader "Hey, I don't want to control people's lives!
Toronto (If they did things right, I wouldn't have to.)"
m...@vex.net -- "Coach"

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[Peter Brooks]

On Oct 3, 5:10 am, ctbis...@earthlink.net (Charles Bishop) wrote:
> In article <pcr068lqge14oqp1094nh5a70cgc23r...@4ax.com>, tony cooper

That's be the 'register' at my pitchforking.

[Eric Walker]

On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 20:09:46 -0800, Charles Bishop wrote:

[...]

> Can I get enough people together to make a sizable mob (pitchforks and
> flaming torches optional) to surround and make fun of those people
> (usually news people who are looking for a "hook" for a particular day)
> who confidently assert that spring, summer, fall or winter are "here"
> just because it's the day of an equinox? None of the seasons arrive with
> that sort of regularity, but are defined by a change in climate (or
> weather, I'm not sure).

Spring, summer, fall, and winter are defined portions of the calendar
with starts and ends as definite as those of any month. That is not by
any means to be confused with the sense of what sort of weather is
associated with each: "it's a rather summery day for so early in the
spring" is a perfectly logical and comprehensible statement. So is
"Rather autumnal weather, isn't it?" said on a late-summer afternoon.

Then there are the antipodes . . . .


--
Cordially,
Eric Walker

[Eric Walker]

On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 23:40:41 -0500, Mark Brader wrote:

> Charles Bishop:
>
>> None of the seasons arrive with that sort of regularity, but are
>> defined by a change in climate (or weather, I'm not sure).
>
> For me it's impossible for "none" to take a "but <verb>" clause. I
> would've said "they are defined", with a colon or semicolon preceding
> it.

It seems elliptical for:

None of the seasons arrive with that sort of regularity, but are

[each] defined by a change in climate (or weather, I'm not sure).

Mind, I think that poor form for:

None of the seasons arrives with that sort of regularity, each being

defined by a change in climate (or weather, I'm not sure).

--
Cordially,
Eric Walker

[Mark Brader]

Charles Bishop:
>>> None of the seasons arrive with that sort of regularity, but are
>>> defined by a change in climate (or weather, I'm not sure).

Mark Brader:

>> For me it's impossible for "none" to take a "but <verb>" clause. I
>> would've said "they are defined", with a colon or semicolon preceding
>> it.

Eric Walker:

> It seems elliptical for:
>
> None of the seasons arrive with that sort of regularity, but are
> [each] defined by a change in climate (or weather, I'm not sure).

I'd say that means "but none of them are each defined by...".
I could see it as elliptical for

None of the seasons arrive with that sort of regularity, but [they]
are [each] defined by...

But the "but" still bothers me.

> Mind, I think that poor form for:
>
> None of the seasons arrives with that sort of regularity, each being
> defined by a change in climate (or weather, I'm not sure).

Yeah, that's another good version.
--
Mark Brader | Switzerland is also called water tower...
Toronto | And people are like here weather environment.
m...@vex.net | --seen in spam

[Ian Noble]

On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 23:40:41 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

>Charles Bishop:
>> None of the seasons arrive with that sort of regularity, but are
>> defined by a change in climate (or weather, I'm not sure).
>
>For me it's impossible for "none" to take a "but <verb>" clause.
>I would've said "they are defined", with a colon or semicolon
>preceding it.

It's a rather dated formation, but I see no problem with it. It has
the sense of, "Every season that arrives with that sort of regularity
is defined by ((etc.))".

Cheers - Ian
(BrE: Yorks., Hants.)

[Mark Brader]

Charles Bishop:
>>> None of the seasons arrive with that sort of regularity, but are
>>> defined by a change in climate (or weather, I'm not sure).

Mark Brader:

>> For me it's impossible for "none" to take a "but <verb>" clause.
>> I would've said "they are defined", with a colon or semicolon
>> preceding it.

Ian Noble:

> It's a rather dated formation, but I see no problem with it. It has
> the sense of, "Every season that arrives with that sort of regularity
> is defined by ((etc.))".

Yes, using the sense of "but" that's similar to "unless", as in
"all but one". *But* that's clearly not what Charles meant.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Any sufficiently advanced bug is indistinguishable
m...@vex.net | from a feature." -- Rich Kulawiec (after Clarke)

[Ian Noble]

On Wed, 03 Oct 2012 14:14:16 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

>Charles Bishop:
>>>> None of the seasons arrive with that sort of regularity, but are
>>>> defined by a change in climate (or weather, I'm not sure).
>
>Mark Brader:
>>> For me it's impossible for "none" to take a "but <verb>" clause. I
>>> would've said "they are defined", with a colon or semicolon preceding
>>> it.
>
>Eric Walker:
>> It seems elliptical for:
>>
>> None of the seasons arrive with that sort of regularity, but are
>> [each] defined by a change in climate (or weather, I'm not sure).
>
>I'd say that means "but none of them are each defined by...".
>I could see it as elliptical for
>
> None of the seasons arrive with that sort of regularity, but [they]
> are [each] defined by...
>
>But the "but" still bothers me.

No. The "but" here is a negative. "No season that arrives with that
regularity is not defined by a change in climate."


Here are two verses from the Bible (Mark 10, 29:30), King James
version and New King James version (reworking the language of the KJV
into a more modern shape), showing "but" working in the same manner.
((My capiltalisations.))

KJV:

29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, THERE IS NO MAN
that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother,
or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,

30 BUT THAT HE shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses,
and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with
persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life."


NKJV:

29 So Jesus answered and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, THERE IS NO
ONE who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or
wife[a] or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel’s,

30 WHO SHALL NOT receive a hundredfold now in this time - houses and
brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with
persecutions - and in the age to come, eternal life.

[Ian Noble]

On Wed, 03 Oct 2012 15:20:14 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

>Charles Bishop:
>>>> None of the seasons arrive with that sort of regularity, but are
>>>> defined by a change in climate (or weather, I'm not sure).
>
>Mark Brader:
>>> For me it's impossible for "none" to take a "but <verb>" clause.
>>> I would've said "they are defined", with a colon or semicolon
>>> preceding it.
>
>Ian Noble:
>> It's a rather dated formation, but I see no problem with it. It has
>> the sense of, "Every season that arrives with that sort of regularity
>> is defined by ((etc.))".
>
>Yes, using the sense of "but" that's similar to "unless", as in
>"all but one". *But* that's clearly not what Charles meant.

Sorry, I may be missing your point; I don't follow the "all but one
reference". Either way, it's a full double negative form: none of the
seasons that arrive with that sort of regularity are not defined by a
change in climate.

Cheers - Ian

[Mark Brader]

Ian Noble:

> No. The "but" here is a negative. "No season that arrives with that
> regularity is not defined by a change in climate."

That's the same thing that... oh, it was you. Okay, I've responded
to this in the other branch of the thread.
--
Mark Brader | "Perl is a minimalist language at heart.
Toronto | It's just minimalistic about weird things
m...@vex.net | compared to your average language." -- Larry Wall

[Mark Brader]

Charles Bishop:
>>>>> None of the seasons arrive with that sort of regularity, but are
>>>>> defined by a change in climate (or weather, I'm not sure).

Mark Brader:
>>>> For me it's impossible for "none" to take a "but <verb>" clause.
>>>> I would've said "they are defined", with a colon or semicolon
>>>> preceding it.

Ian Noble:
>>> It's a rather dated formation, but I see no problem with it. It has
>>> the sense of, "Every season that arrives with that sort of regularity
>>> is defined by ((etc.))".

Mark Brader:

>> Yes, using the sense of "but" that's similar to "unless", as in
>> "all but one". *But* that's clearly not what Charles meant.

Ian Noble:

> Sorry, I may be missing your point; I don't follow the "all but one
> reference".

Your misinterpretation of Charles's sentence is based on an old-fashioned
usage where "but" means something like "unless" or "except". I'm
acknowledging that this sense exists; the phrase "all but one" is
a modern usage of it.

However, it is *not* the sense Charles was using. Charles was stating
that *none of the seasons* arrive with that sort of regularity, and
then making a separate statement about how the seasons are defined.
Clear now?
--
Mark Brader | "The speed of sound is considerably less than the
Toronto | speed of light -- that is why some people appear bright
m...@vex.net | until you hear them talk."

[Guy Barry]

"Mark Brader" wrote in message
news:TqqdnajDddEVE_HN...@vex.net...

> Eric Walker:
> > It seems elliptical for:
>
> > None of the seasons arrive with that sort of regularity, but are
> > [each] defined by a change in climate (or weather, I'm not sure).

> I'd say that means "but none of them are each defined by...".
> I could see it as elliptical for

> None of the seasons arrive with that sort of regularity, but [they]
> are [each] defined by...

> But the "but" still bothers me.

Acceptable versions for me would be
(1) "None of the seasons arrive with that sort of regularity; they are

defined by a change in climate"

(2) "The seasons do not arrive with that sort of regularity, but are defined

by a change in climate"

Eric's original version seems to be a hybrid between these two. I'm not
sure if your suggested amendment works for me either though; it's of the
type "it is not black, but it is white" (which I remember incurred the
condemnation of Fowler, though it's fairly common now).

--
Guy Barry

[CDB]

On 03/10/2012 4:33 PM, Mark Brader wrote:
> Ian Noble:

[None of the seasons arrive with that sort of regularity, but are
defined by a change in climate]

>> No. The "but" here is a negative. "No season that arrives with that
>> regularity is not defined by a change in climate."

> That's the same thing that... oh, it was you. Okay, I've responded
> to this in the other branch of the thread.

I agree that the "but" of the example is used as a coordinating
conjunction and that, therefore, the second clause is independent and
either takes the same (unexpressed) subject as the first one or must
have its own.

The first alternative would produce "None of the seasons arrive with
that sort of regularity, but [none] are
defined by a change in climate," which was probably not intended (OK,
how do they do it, then?) The simplest fixes are the ones Guy suggested.

[Ian Noble]

Indeed. Came the dawn.

[Ian Noble]

On Wed, 03 Oct 2012 15:33:48 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

>Ian Noble:
>> No. The "but" here is a negative. "No season that arrives with that
>> regularity is not defined by a change in climate."
>
>That's the same thing that... oh, it was you. Okay, I've responded
>to this in the other branch of the thread.

Indeed.

I agree with the OP. To get that meaning, I wouldn't use "None..
but...". You can see how thoroughly my mind rejected the intended
meaning by the degree of conviction I had that that wasn't what the
sepeaker was saying.

[Iain Archer]

Charles Bishop wrote on Tue, 2 Oct 2012

I'm sorry, my pitchforks are all reserved for those weatherpersons who
presume to know how pleasant or unpleasant I'm likely to find any
particular state of weather.
--
Iain Archer