Whence the term "Charley Horse"

[Henning Schröder]

Any idea where the term "charley horse" comes from?
Is it American only?

After exercising far too much helping a new neighbor
clean her yard, I went home, ate, drank, showered,
and then rested in bed.

BAM! Charlie horse time!
15 minutes of agony where my wife had to literally sit on
my legs to stretch them out as I writhed in pain, mostly
from the thighs cramping up.

Dutifully, I look up what causes charley horses, where I find,
much to my chagrin, that the cause and solution has got to be
on the top-ten list of most misunderstood subjects!

I mean the number of doctors who spout total BS (e.g., electrolyte
imbalances, dehydration, lack of stretching, etc.), was phenomenal.

Having access to scientific papers, I find nobody really knows
WHAT causes them, other than they are extremely common and that
they are exercise related (and increase with age).

The closest I can find to a SCIENTIFIC answer is that the charley
horse has absolutely nothing to do with potassium imbalances,
nor with dehydration; but what I'm asking on this newsgroup is
merely where the term come from.

Any ideas where the term "charley horse" comes from?

[Dr. Jai Maharaj]

In article <nk79kv$h2q$1...@news.mixmin.net>
Henning =?iso-8859-1?q?Schr=F6der?= <henning.schroder@1&1.de> posted:

Charley horse

http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/site/comments/charley_horse/

Charley horse

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charley_horse

Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
Om Shanti

http://bit.do/jaimaharaj

[Richard Heathfield]

[Cross-posts removed]

On 20/06/16 00:58, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
> In article <nk79kv$h2q$1...@news.mixmin.net>
> Henning =?iso-8859-1?q?Schr=F6der?= <henning.schroder@1&1.de> posted:

<snip>

>> Any ideas where the term "charley horse" comes from?
>
> Charley horse
>
> http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/site/comments/charley_horse/
>
> Charley horse
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charley_horse
>
> Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi

Thanks for the reply, and for your sterling efforts in conducting what
was obviously some weighty and time-consuming research. I have a
follow-up question: why did you feel the need to cross-post your reply
to EIGHT other groups?

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[martin.ambuhl]

On 06/19/2016 07:25 PM, Henning Schröder wrote:
> Any idea where the term "charley horse" comes from?
> Is it American only?

[SOED]

charley horse, noun phr.
/"tSA;li hO;s/
N. Amer. slang. L19.
[Origin unkn.]

Stiffness or cramp in an arm or a leg.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 01:12:09 +0100, Richard Heathfield
<r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:

>[Cross-posts removed]
>
>On 20/06/16 00:58, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
>> In article <nk79kv$h2q$1...@news.mixmin.net>
>> Henning =?iso-8859-1?q?Schr=F6der?= <henning.schroder@1&1.de> posted:
>
><snip>
>
>>> Any ideas where the term "charley horse" comes from?
>>
>> Charley horse
>>
>> http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/site/comments/charley_horse/
>>
>> Charley horse
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charley_horse
>>
>> Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
>
>Thanks for the reply, and for your sterling efforts in conducting what
>was obviously some weighty and time-consuming research. I have a
>follow-up question: why did you feel the need to cross-post your reply
>to EIGHT other groups?

Charley has the trots.

[Henning Schröder]

Dr. Jai Maharaj auf Sun, 19 Jun 2016 23:58:51 +0000 geschrieben ...

> Charley horse

Thank you for the interesting two references.
1. http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/site/comments/charley_horse/
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charley_horse

The latter is not only amazingly useless to provide *whence* the term
came from, but the second reference is so wrong on EVERYTHING written
(IMHO) as to be summarily discounted, immediately, out of hand (if not
sooner).

Not a single statement in that short article describes what we
Americans would term a "Charley Horse". Not one. Even the medical
part of that article is dead wrong, but, nobody serious would even
both to read past the first sentence given the misinformation in
that article. Admittedly, it's just Wikipedia, so, it could have
been written by a moron (and should be fixed, once we find out
the origin of the term).

The first reference is more apropos. It says "no one knows who Charley
was or why he may have had a lame horse."

The earliest known use of the term is from the Boston Globe, 17 July 1886.
However, apparently, according to that same reference, the newspaper
article never existed (based on how I read the cite).

The article then "guesses" at where the term comes from, which may
be as good as this newsgroup can come up with, but, I would think
that such a question would have more of an answer than a few wild
guesses.

--
REMOVED unrelated plethora of idiotic followups (was this all a joke?)

[Henning Schröder]

martin.ambuhl auf Sun, 19 Jun 2016 20:17:12 -0400 geschrieben ...

> [SOED]
>
> charley horse, noun phr.
> /"tSA;li hO;s/
> N. Amer. slang. L19.
> [Origin unkn.]
>
> Stiffness or cramp in an arm or a leg.

Thank you for confirming that the term is a "North American" slang
term. The Wikipedia article previously referenced (which was as bad
as any reference ever was), at least confirmed that both Canada and
the US use the term, and, the wordorigins article guessed (but did
not convincingly back up) that the term may have originated during
the press coverage of US baseball in the latter half of the 19th
century.

Also thank you for noting that the origin is unknown.

I don't have the references that you folks have, but I couldn't
find any information on my own, hence, that's why I asked you for
help in determining the origin of the term "Charley Horse".

[Henning Schröder]

Richard Heathfield auf Mon, 20 Jun 2016 01:12:09 +0100 geschrieben ...

> Thanks for the reply, and for your sterling efforts in conducting what
> was obviously some weighty and time-consuming research. I have a
> follow-up question: why did you feel the need to cross-post your reply
> to EIGHT other groups?

Thank you for pointing that out, as I had replied seriously to that
troll, but have now plonked him, given that he had some ulterior
motive (which all trolls do).

Nonetheless, while his second reference was worse than useless (because
it didn't even correctly describe WHAT a charley horse is), the first
reference (wordorigin.org) seems to simply say nobody knows whence the
term comes from - and then guessed that it came from press coverage of
a US baseball game.

PS: I'm not sure whether I should capitalize "charley" because I'm
in the USA and it seems to be a proper noun that isn't used as a
proper noun.

[Horace LaBadie]

In article <nk7dc1$m01$3...@news.mixmin.net>,

Mencken says in The American Language that it is a baseball term. In
Supplement Two, page 735, note 6, he gives various sources that confirm
its baseball origin, but each source differs in etymology from each
other. One suggests that it was named for Charley Esper, who had a
halting gait, like that of a lame horse.

[Henning Schröder]

martin.ambuhl auf Sun, 19 Jun 2016 20:17:12 -0400 geschrieben ...

> Stiffness or cramp in an arm or a leg.

BTW, I have *never* seen the term used for "stiffness", nor
for the "arm".

It's a rather debilitating cramp in the leg, which often
involves the thigh (most common) and calf (less common).

At least that's how I understand Americans to use the term.

[Ross]

I won't comment on the question of meaning, though I too found
a confusing diversity of symptoms and causes mentioned in the
sources I looked at.

I remember the expression being used by the jocks in my
high school (Canada, 1950s), and gathered it was some
kind of muscle cramp in the legs.

OED says "Origin uncertain". Their first couple of citations
(1880s) appear to come from the baseball world, so that
may be where it originated.

[Peter Moylan]

On 2016-Jun-20 10:12, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> [Cross-posts removed]
>
> On 20/06/16 00:58, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:

[snip]

> Thanks for the reply, and for your sterling efforts in conducting what
> was obviously some weighty and time-consuming research. I have a
> follow-up question: why did you feel the need to cross-post your reply
> to EIGHT other groups?
>

Jay Stevens aka Jai Maharaj is a well-known pest who likes to direct
traffic to his own vanity newsgroups. It's best not to reply to him.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Peter Moylan]

I've never heard the term (in this sense) in Australia, so I'm guessing
that it is North American only. I have a vague memory that tells me that
the same phrase is slang for some sort of drug, but can't find
supporting evidence for that.

[Lewis]

In message <nk79kv$h2q$1...@news.mixmin.net>

Henning Schröder <henning.schroder@1&1.de> wrote:
> Any ideas where the term "charley horse" comes from?

Baseball, as I recall.



--
And there were all the stars, looking remarkably like powered diamonds
spilled on black velvet, the stars that lured and ultimately called the
boldest towards them...

[Lewis]

In message <nk7e9j$m01$5...@news.mixmin.net>

Henning Schröder <henning.schroder@1&1.de> wrote:
> martin.ambuhl auf Sun, 19 Jun 2016 20:17:12 -0400 geschrieben ...

>> Stiffness or cramp in an arm or a leg.

> BTW, I have *never* seen the term used for "stiffness", nor
> for the "arm".

Definitely used for the same sort of hard knot in the arm. In fact, in
High School it was a common practice to "give" someone a charlie horse
on the arm by punching them hard with a single knuckle.

> It's a rather debilitating cramp in the leg, which often
> involves the thigh (most common) and calf (less common).

For my use it requires that there be a hard knot in the muscle, not
simply a cramp.

--
Lead me not into temptation, I can find the way.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <nk7ccq$pht$1...@dont-email.me>,

Richard Heathfield <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:

> [Cross-posts removed]
>
> On 20/06/16 00:58, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
> > In article <nk79kv$h2q$1...@news.mixmin.net>
> > Henning =?iso-8859-1?q?Schr=F6der?= <henning.schroder@1&1.de> posted:
>
> <snip>
>
> >> Any ideas where the term "charley horse" comes from?
> >
> > Charley horse
> >
> > http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/site/comments/charley_horse/
> >
> > Charley horse
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charley_horse
> >
> > Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
>
> Thanks for the reply, and for your sterling efforts in conducting what
> was obviously some weighty and time-consuming research. I have a
> follow-up question: why did you feel the need to cross-post your reply
> to EIGHT other groups?

Richard Heathfield, Jai Maharaj. Jai Maharaj, Richard Heathfield.

--
chrles

[Charles Bishop]

In article <400c28d9-7686-4a97...@googlegroups.com>,

I have no information on the origin of the name, despite my credentials,
but I get the cramps in the night sometimes when lying down. My quick
solution is to stand up and put as much weight as possible on the leg
with the CH. This clears it up in under a minute.

charles

[Henning Schröder]

Charles Bishop auf Sun, 19 Jun 2016 19:35:34 -0700 geschrieben ...

> I have no information on the origin of the name, despite my credentials,
> but I get the cramps in the night sometimes when lying down. My quick
> solution is to stand up and put as much weight as possible on the leg
> with the CH. This clears it up in under a minute.

Hi Charlie/Charley!

I think the origin of the term may never be known, and, if it's from
baseball, there's no direct known connect to a "charley" or to a "horse",
although a "lame white horse" seems to be mentioned the most.

Scientific papers have shown that neither potassium/magnesium nor hydration
seem to be related (even though very many Internet sources imply that this
is the case).

So, this is just one of those things that is an enigma in all senses.

1. Whence the term, is an enigma.
2. What causes the CH is an enigma.
3. Therefore, the solution will always be an enigma.

Having said that, I too either stand on them and "try" to walk, or, I have
the wife sit on my thighs as I attempt to not scream in pain writhing on
my side with both legs bucking toward my backside.

I drink salty water - just because (not because it's actually helpful - but
it won't hurt), and I drink lots of water - but again - from my research -
neither is the cause nor solution to the problem.

There's some kind of "feedback mismatch" when "overly tired" muscles are
innervated by the brain. When it goes away, something enervates that
erroneous feedback loop.

PS: I wonder why innervation has 2 n's, while enervation only has 1.

[Henning Schröder]

Peter Moylan auf Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:01:04 +1000 geschrieben ...

> Jay Stevens aka Jai Maharaj is a well-known pest who likes to direct
> traffic to his own vanity newsgroups. It's best not to reply to him.

Thanks.
He's in my killfile now, and, I didn't reply except to this ng.

[Henning Schröder]

Horace LaBadie auf Sun, 19 Jun 2016 20:43:56 -0400 geschrieben ...

> Mencken says in The American Language that it is a baseball term. In
> Supplement Two, page 735, note 6, he gives various sources that confirm
> its baseball origin, but each source differs in etymology from each
> other. One suggests that it was named for Charley Esper, who had a
> halting gait, like that of a lame horse.

Most of the references seem to "imply" that the term showed up in
press reports of baseball games in the US in the latter quarter of
the 19th century.

Like everything else about this Charley Horse, it's an enigma with a
lot of guesses, but few real facts.

[Henning Schröder]

Lewis auf Mon, 20 Jun 2016 02:19:12 +0000 geschrieben ...

> Definitely used for the same sort of hard knot in the arm. In fact, in
> High School it was a common practice to "give" someone a charlie horse
> on the arm by punching them hard with a single knuckle.

This is interestingn, as word usage is nothing but word usage, so,
if that's how you used it, then that's its word usage.

Given that a CH seems to be some kind of unknown mechanism where the
feedback loop between the brain and an overly tired muscle is innervated,
the "punching" you speak of may (possibly) have initiated that erroneous
feedback loop.

> For my use it requires that there be a hard knot in the muscle, not
> simply a cramp.

Since muscles can only contract (they are one-way mechanisms), a hard
knot would be the same as a cramp, wouldn't it?

I mean, a muscle can ONLY contract.
a. A hard knot can only be a contraction
b. A cramp can only be a contraction

So, I think your use of "hard knot" (i.e., an isometric contraction), is
the same as my use of "cramp", and as opposed to an isotonic contraction
where work is performed.

[Henning Schröder]

Lewis auf Mon, 20 Jun 2016 02:13:55 +0000 geschrieben ...

> Baseball, as I recall.

There's no direct known connection to a "charley" or to a "horse",

although a "lame white horse" seems to be mentioned the most.

What that horse had to do with baseball is also unknown, it seems.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, June 19, 2016 at 10:06:22 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:

> I've never heard the term (in this sense) in Australia, so I'm guessing
> that it is North American only. I have a vague memory that tells me that
> the same phrase is slang for some sort of drug, but can't find
> supporting evidence for that.

Just "horse" = heroin.

[Henning Schröder]

Horace LaBadie auf Sun, 19 Jun 2016 20:43:56 -0400 geschrieben ...

> One suggests that it was named for Charley Esper, who had a
> halting gait, like that of a lame horse.

The reference that was originally given says that Charley Esper
STARTED playing baseball well AFTER the term was in use.

http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/site/comments/charley_horse/

"Other tales of the origin of charley horse can be discounted
because the term was in use before the protagonist came to be.
Perhaps the most famous of these states that the term is after
Charlie “Duke” Esper, a southpaw pitcher for the Baltimore
Orioles, who is said to have “walked like a lame horse.”
Unfortunately for this story, Esper didn’t start playing
until 1894, well after the term was established. "

[David Kleinecke]

What were cramps called before CH was coined?

[bill van]

In article <f653bcdb-c0b4-469d...@googlegroups.com>,

Muscle spasms, among other things, such as cramps.
--
bill

[bill van]

In article <ctbishop-6CD0D6...@news.individual.net>,

That reminds that we have an early-baseball expert in that other group,
who has written books about the development of the game and its rules.
Perhaps he can shed light. I'll ask and report back.
--
bill

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:06:20 +1000, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 2016-Jun-20 10:17, martin.ambuhl wrote:
>> On 06/19/2016 07:25 PM, Henning Schröder wrote:
>>> Any idea where the term "charley horse" comes from?
>>> Is it American only?
>>
>> [SOED]
>>
>> charley horse, noun phr.
>> /"tSA;li hO;s/
>> N. Amer. slang. L19.
>> [Origin unkn.]
>>
>> Stiffness or cramp in an arm or a leg.
>
>I've never heard the term (in this sense) in Australia, so I'm guessing
>that it is North American only. I have a vague memory that tells me that
>the same phrase is slang for some sort of drug, but can't find
>supporting evidence for that.

You may be able to narrow down "North America" to certain regions. I
would never associate a charley horse with any arm pain. To me, it's
in the upper thigh.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 20:36:38 -0700, bill van <bil...@delete.shaw.ca>
wrote:

You might get help closer to home. Eric Walker is quite conversant
with early baseball.

[Horace LaBadie]

In article <nk7mdr$asd$2...@news.mixmin.net>,

As I noted, it is one of many conflicting etymologies.

Another is that it referred to one Charley of Sioux City, a
groundskeeper, who used a horse in his trade.

Mencken also cites Bill Brandt, Charley Horse, in Letters, Nov. 11,
1935; American Notes & Queries, April, 1937, pp. 9-10; and My Thirty
Years in Baseball by John McGraw, 1923, for other etymologies.

His main reference is An Historical Dictionary of Baseball Terminology,
by Edward J. Nichols.

[Lewis]

In message <nk7m26$asd$1...@news.mixmin.net>

Henning Schröder <henning.schroder@1&1.de> wrote:
> Lewis auf Mon, 20 Jun 2016 02:13:55 +0000 geschrieben ...

>> Baseball, as I recall.

> There's no direct known connection to a "charley" or to a "horse",
> although a "lame white horse" seems to be mentioned the most.

But the phrase first appears only in relation to baseball.

> What that horse had to do with baseball is also unknown, it seems.

WHY the phrase was chosen is a more complicated question than WHERE it
came from.

--
'Do you know what they call a sausage-in-a-bun in Quirm?' 'No?' said Mr
Tulip 'They called it le sausage-in-le-bun.' 'What, in a --ing foreign
language? You're --ing kidding!'

[Lewis]

In message <nk7lvh$ase$1...@news.mixmin.net>

Henning Schröder <henning.schroder@1&1.de> wrote:
> Lewis auf Mon, 20 Jun 2016 02:19:12 +0000 geschrieben ...

>> Definitely used for the same sort of hard knot in the arm. In fact, in
>> High School it was a common practice to "give" someone a charlie horse
>> on the arm by punching them hard with a single knuckle.

> This is interestingn, as word usage is nothing but word usage, so,
> if that's how you used it, then that's its word usage.

> Given that a CH seems to be some kind of unknown mechanism where the
> feedback loop between the brain and an overly tired muscle is innervated,
> the "punching" you speak of may (possibly) have initiated that erroneous
> feedback loop.


>> For my use it requires that there be a hard knot in the muscle, not
>> simply a cramp.

> Since muscles can only contract (they are one-way mechanisms), a hard
> knot would be the same as a cramp, wouldn't it?

I have cramps that are painful, but I don't feel a hard knot like with a
charley horse which is *much* more painful.

> I mean, a muscle can ONLY contract.
> a. A hard knot can only be a contraction
> b. A cramp can only be a contraction

A charley horse is a greater degree of contraction, I suppose.

I can "walk-off" a cramp. I can't stand at all with a charley horse in
my leg.

If I wake up in the middle of the night with a pain in my leg, that's a
cramp. If I wake up screaming with a pain in my leg, that's a charley
horse.

My wife had one last weekend. It took a good 45 minutes or stretching
her leg and toes to get it to subside, she was in a great deal of pain
for most of that time.

> So, I think your use of "hard knot" (i.e., an isometric contraction), is
> the same as my use of "cramp", and as opposed to an isotonic contraction
> where work is performed.

I don't think so.

--
Come on. Somewhere at the edge of the bell curve is the girl for me.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 23:25:19 -0000 (UTC), Henning Schröder
<henning.schroder@1&1.de> wrote:

>Any ideas where the term "charley horse" comes from?

Charley horse

Q. From Gerard Joannes in France; a related question came from
Edmund Matthews in the UK: Have you ever heard of a charley horse?
Where does this phrase come from?

A. It’s American, dating from the 1880s, and was originally baseball
slang. It refers to a painful involuntary cramp in an arm or leg
muscle, usually that of an athlete, as a result of a muscular strain
or a blow. We’re not sure where it comes from, but there are lots of
theories. There’s a persistent story that the original Charley was a
lame horse of that name that pulled the roller at the White Sox
ballpark in Chicago near the end of last century. The American Dialect
Society’s archives reproduces a story that was printed in the
Washington Post in 1907, long enough after the event that people were
trying to explain something already mysterious. This piece said it
referred to the pitcher Charley Radbourne, nicknamed Old Hoss, who
suffered this problem during a game in the 1880s; the condition was
then named by putting together his first name and the second half of
his nickname. The first recorded use, again from the ADS archives, is
from the Sporting Life of 1886; that and other citations suggest it
was coined not long before.

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-cha1.htm

[musika]

On 20/06/2016 03:06, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 2016-Jun-20 10:17, martin.ambuhl wrote:
>> On 06/19/2016 07:25 PM, Henning Schröder wrote:
>>> Any idea where the term "charley horse" comes from?
>>> Is it American only?
>>
>> [SOED]
>>
>> charley horse, noun phr.
>> /"tSA;li hO;s/
>> N. Amer. slang. L19.
>> [Origin unkn.]
>>
>> Stiffness or cramp in an arm or a leg.
>
> I've never heard the term (in this sense) in Australia, so I'm guessing
> that it is North American only. I have a vague memory that tells me that
> the same phrase is slang for some sort of drug, but can't find
> supporting evidence for that.
>

AFAIC that's conflation. Charlie = cocaine, Horse = heroin.

--
Ray
UK

[Ross]

ProQuest Historic Newspapers report on "Charley-horse" (just
the first 20 items):
- First appearance 1886 (Atlanta Constitution) -- nice agreement
with ADS;
- Some fluctuation in syntax (has charley-horse/the charley-horse/
a charley-horse);
- It's all about baseball, except for one reference to athletics
(an Ivy League runner) in 1893;
- You can get it in your arm! "Catcher Jim Has the Charley-horse in
His Throwing Arm" (headline, Washington Post, 22/09/1891) -- also one
that said "X has the Charley-horse in his head", but I think that
was a joke.
- No hints or even stories about its origin.

[Don Phillipson]

"Henning Schröder" <henning.schroder@1&1.de> wrote in message
news:nk7dkk$m01$4...@news.mixmin.net...

> . . . his second reference was worse than useless (because

> it didn't even correctly describe WHAT a charley horse is)

> http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/site/comments/charley_horse/
> . . .
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charley_horse

These two sources differ: Wikipedia says it is traumatic
(" painful spasms or cramps in the leg muscles caused by
a punch or knee to the thigh") while the other says the words
denote a condition (muscle pain) independent of any cause
(i.e. including cramps with no apparent injury.) Current usage
seems similarly broad or ambiguous.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 17:45:33 -0700 (PDT), Ross <benl...@ihug.co.nz>

I had a female friend whose husband died after a fairly long illness.
After his death she asked me to type up some handwritten poems that he
had left. At least one of them mentioned "Charley Horse". My friend was
perplexed by that because she thought that "Charley Horse" was a slang
phrase for heroin and she had no knowledge or suspicions of his using
it. After double-checking in dictionaries I corrected her
misunderstanding.


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 9:24:28 AM UTC-4, PeterWD wrote:

> I had a female friend whose husband died after a fairly long illness.
> After his death she asked me to type up some handwritten poems that he
> had left. At least one of them mentioned "Charley Horse". My friend was
> perplexed by that because she thought that "Charley Horse" was a slang
> phrase for heroin and she had no knowledge or suspicions of his using
> it. After double-checking in dictionaries I corrected her
> misunderstanding.

So in the drug"s" world, it's a Briticism?

[John Varela]

On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 00:44:36 UTC, Henning Schröder

<henning.schroder@1&1.de> wrote:

> martin.ambuhl auf Sun, 19 Jun 2016 20:17:12 -0400 geschrieben ...
>
> > Stiffness or cramp in an arm or a leg.
>
> BTW, I have *never* seen the term used for "stiffness", nor
> for the "arm".

I've only used the term for cramps in the calf because I never
(knock on wood) have thigh cramps. It seems to be in the Achilles
tendon because the cure is to put the ball of the foot on the floor
and then press down hard on the leg to force the ankle into an L
shape.

> It's a rather debilitating cramp in the leg, which often
> involves the thigh (most common) and calf (less common).
>

> At least that's how I understand Americans to use the term.
>


--
John Varela

[Jack Campin]

>> I had a female friend whose husband died after a fairly long illness.
>> After his death she asked me to type up some handwritten poems that he
>> had left. At least one of them mentioned "Charley Horse". My friend was
>> perplexed by that because she thought that "Charley Horse" was a slang
>> phrase for heroin and she had no knowledge or suspicions of his using
>> it. After double-checking in dictionaries I corrected her
>> misunderstanding.
> So in the drug"s" world, it's a Briticism?

No, it's just a very obscure phrase - I've never heard it.
But I have come across "horse" for heroin, so that makes for
a plausible guess for a non-American to make as to what it
may relate to.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

According to BrE online sources "Charlie" is slang for cocaine. I can
find no usage of "Charley Horse" other than for cramp.

I have no idea how common or current either is.

[Henning Schröder]

Don Phillipson auf Mon, 20 Jun 2016 08:21:33 -0400 geschrieben ...

> These two sources differ: Wikipedia says it is traumatic
> (" painful spasms or cramps in the leg muscles caused by
> a punch or knee to the thigh") while the other says the words
> denote a condition (muscle pain) independent of any cause
> (i.e. including cramps with no apparent injury.) Current usage
> seems similarly broad or ambiguous.

I'm not going to be a dictionary, but I'm an American, and I
would only use the term to indicate a spontaneous leg cramp.

I have never heard the term used for leg cramps induced by
"punching" (who punches people in the legs?) but if punching
people is your schtick, and if doing so induces a "spontaneous
leg cramp", then I guess the term could loosely apply as well
to such a rare circumstance.

[Henning Schröder]

Lewis auf Mon, 20 Jun 2016 04:10:51 +0000 geschrieben ...

>> There's no direct known connection to a "charley" or to a "horse",
>> although a "lame white horse" seems to be mentioned the most.
>
> But the phrase first appears only in relation to baseball.
>
>> What that horse had to do with baseball is also unknown, it seems.
>
> WHY the phrase was chosen is a more complicated question than WHERE it
> came from.
>

I must commend you on your technique of completely agreeing with me,
but making it sound like there is a line of disagreement somewhere.

We are both saying *exactly* the same things.

1. The term's origin is essentially unknown but...
2. The time frame seems to be around the late 1800
3. The location seems to be the Northeast region of the USA
4. More specifically, the location seems to be related to the baseball world
5. Even more specifically, sports-press reports mention the term first
However ...
5. The connection to a specific "Charley" is completely unknown
6. The connection to a specific "Horse" is completely unknown

Most importantly...
7. Neither the word Charley, nor the word Horse (nor the conflation),
indicate a leg cramp in and of themselves.

Given that, one would "assume" there was a specific (white?) Horse named
Charley who would get leg cramps; but that horse has never been found.

What's left is speculation.

[Henning Schröder]

Ross auf Mon, 20 Jun 2016 03:51:01 -0700 geschrieben ...

> - You can get it in your arm!

That was a very nice assessment, which added tidbits to our combined
knowledge.

One tidbit was that, at least originally, it could have been related
both to being hit (as in being hit by a baseball perhaps?) and that
the affliction could affect the arms.

I myself have never heard the term used under those two circumstances,
but, others in this thread have, so, we can assume that it could also
be in the arm (although if you google for pictures, the lack of pictures
of arms is strikingly obvious.

https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&q=charley+horse

BTW, as an aside, the lack of any "proven" remedy is astounding, where
we know (from scientific sources) that the most common remedies are all
false.

What would you call that, which is so "commonly known to be assumed" is
actually false? A myth is too weak a term to describe something so insanely
wrongly attributed to the wrong cause.

Whatever the term for such a misunderstood noun, the commonly held beliefs
about how to prevent Charley Horses are akin to the myths about preventing
the "common cold" (which has no significant causation directly related
"being cold") or the "high octane" fuel (which, in many situations is
lower-quality fuel for the given vehicle) or for "brake warp", which
also belong as Dunning-Kruger poster child questions.

These "nouns" are significantly misunderstood by the hoi polloi:
a. Charley Horse <== is not caused by electrolyte imbalance nor dehydration
b. Common Cold <== has almost nothing to do with being cold
c. High Octane Fuel <== it's not better; it's just different
d. Brake Warp <== they almost never warp in non-racing situations

What do you call these "things" that are misunderstood so widely because
the "assumption" is so obviously easy to make (yet the assumption is
dead wrong)?

[Henning Schröder]

Henning Schröder auf Mon, 20 Jun 2016 16:44:30 +0000 geschrieben ...

> I'm not going to be a dictionary, but I'm an American, and I
> would only use the term to indicate a spontaneous leg cramp.
>
> I have never heard the term used for leg cramps induced by
> "punching" (who punches people in the legs?) but if punching
> people is your schtick, and if doing so induces a "spontaneous
> leg cramp", then I guess the term could loosely apply as well
> to such a rare circumstance.

BTW, someone later described an attribution that included both
arms and being "hit" causing the cramps.

Being hit in the arm or leg by a baseball is definitely something
we might envision in the baseball world.

[Janet]

In article <nk7cn1$q4k$1...@dont-email.me>, mam...@earthlink.net says...

>
> On 06/19/2016 07:25 PM, Henning Schröder wrote:
> > Any idea where the term "charley horse" comes from?
> > Is it American only?
>
> [SOED]
>
> charley horse, noun phr.
> /"tSA;li hO;s/
> N. Amer. slang. L19.
> [Origin unkn.]
>

> Stiffness or cramp in an arm or a leg.

If you came to Scotland and announced you had charlie horse people
would think you're a drug dealer.

charlie- street name for cocaine
horse--- heroin

Janet

[bill van]

In article <nk96he$f23$1...@news.mixmin.net>,

I've heard the term used by televised North American football announcers
in recent years. My somewhat vague memory says there are kinds of
instances: a player who becomes dehydrated and starts to cramp up, and a
player who has been tackled, with the tackler's helmet making hard
contact with the big leg muscles.
--
bill

[Wayne Brown]

On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 21:19:12 in article <slrnnmekkv....@amelia.local> Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> In message <nk7e9j$m01$5...@news.mixmin.net>

> Henning Schröder <henning.schroder@1&1.de> wrote:
>> martin.ambuhl auf Sun, 19 Jun 2016 20:17:12 -0400 geschrieben ...
>

>>> Stiffness or cramp in an arm or a leg.
>

>> BTW, I have *never* seen the term used for "stiffness", nor
>> for the "arm".
>

> Definitely used for the same sort of hard knot in the arm. In fact, in
> High School it was a common practice to "give" someone a charlie horse
> on the arm by punching them hard with a single knuckle.

And sometimes enhanced by digging the knuckle in with a back-and-forth
twisting motion immediately after the punch. (I speak from experience,
having been the recipient of a few of those in school.)

>
>> It's a rather debilitating cramp in the leg, which often
>> involves the thigh (most common) and calf (less common).
>

> For my use it requires that there be a hard knot in the muscle, not
> simply a cramp.

I've always used the term to refer to a sudden, very bad cramp with
or without the hard knot. Sometimes I get them in my legs while
sleeping which makes me wonder if decreased circulation could also
be a cause. An overtired muscle is oxygen-starved, and not getting
enough blood flow could produce the same effect. I can get them when
I've been sleeping on my side with one leg on top of the other for
an extended period. Sometimes the pain is in the knee, though often
it's in the calf.

This morning I was sitting on the couch while using my laptop and I had
one leg crossed over the other for more than an hour. I noticed that
one foot was becoming numb so I shifted my legs to allow circulation
to be restored and immediately had a cramp in the calf of that leg
that was so bad that I almost cried out with the pain. But a few
minutes later the pain was completely gone.

--
F. Wayne Brown <fwb...@bellsouth.net>

ur sag9-ga ur-tur-še3 ba-an-kur9
"A dog that is played with turns into a puppy." (Sumerian proverb)

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 1:15:38 PM UTC-4, Janet wrote:
> In article <nk7cn1$q4k$1...@dont-email.me>, mam...@earthlink.net says...

> > [SOED]
> >
> > charley horse, noun phr.
> > /"tSA;li hO;s/
> > N. Amer. slang. L19.
> > [Origin unkn.]
> >
> > Stiffness or cramp in an arm or a leg.
>
> If you came to Scotland and announced you had charlie horse people
> would think you're a drug dealer.
>
> charlie- street name for cocaine
> horse--- heroin

Is "cocaine heroin" a thing?

"Charlie horse" is a count noun: you get a charlie horse in your leg.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:21:49 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 1:15:38 PM UTC-4, Janet wrote:
>> In article <nk7cn1$q4k$1...@dont-email.me>, mam...@earthlink.net says...
>
>> > [SOED]
>> >
>> > charley horse, noun phr.
>> > /"tSA;li hO;s/
>> > N. Amer. slang. L19.
>> > [Origin unkn.]
>> >
>> > Stiffness or cramp in an arm or a leg.
>>
>> If you came to Scotland and announced you had charlie horse people
>> would think you're a drug dealer.
>>
>> charlie- street name for cocaine
>> horse--- heroin
>
>Is "cocaine heroin" a thing?

Speedballing.

[bill van]

In article <billvan-47A8A4...@88-209-239-213.giganet.hu>,

bill van <bil...@delete.shaw.ca> wrote:

> In article <nk96he$f23$1...@news.mixmin.net>,
> Henning Schröder <henning.schroder@1&1.de> wrote:
>
> > Don Phillipson auf Mon, 20 Jun 2016 08:21:33 -0400 geschrieben ...
> >
> > > These two sources differ: Wikipedia says it is traumatic
> > > (" painful spasms or cramps in the leg muscles caused by
> > > a punch or knee to the thigh") while the other says the words
> > > denote a condition (muscle pain) independent of any cause
> > > (i.e. including cramps with no apparent injury.) Current usage
> > > seems similarly broad or ambiguous.
> >
> > I'm not going to be a dictionary, but I'm an American, and I
> > would only use the term to indicate a spontaneous leg cramp.
> >
> > I have never heard the term used for leg cramps induced by
> > "punching" (who punches people in the legs?) but if punching
> > people is your schtick, and if doing so induces a "spontaneous
> > leg cramp", then I guess the term could loosely apply as well
> > to such a rare circumstance.
>
> I've heard the term used by televised North American football announcers
> in recent years. My somewhat vague memory says there are kinds of

two kinds, that is

> instances: a player who becomes dehydrated and starts to cramp up, and a
> player who has been tackled, with the tackler's helmet making hard
> contact with the big leg muscles.

The early-baseball expert in another group, by the way, did not
immediately recall hearing of charley horses in his studies of baseball
rules and development, which have taken him from whenever the beginnings
were to the 1880s.
--
bill

[GordonD]

The first time I came across the term was in a Stephen King novel (The
Dead Zone). The protagonist has awakened from a five-year coma and is
being put through some fairly strenuous exercises to restore his wasted
muscles. The instructor asks him if he has a Charley Horse when he
tenses up at one point - I had no idea what it meant and IIRC it was a
long time before I found out.

I would also point out that Charlie Horse was Lamb Chop's friend on the
Shari Lewis show.
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland

[Jack Campin]

>>>> Any idea where the term "charley horse" comes from?
>>>> Is it American only?

> The first time I came across the term was in a Stephen King novel
> (The Dead Zone).

I must have overdosed on Fathers Day marketing. I'm not sure what
my subconscious expected to happen in a Stephen King book called
"The Dad Zone" but it wouldn't be good.

[Henning Schröder]

Peter T. Daniels auf Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:21:49 -0700 geschrieben ...

> "Charlie horse" is a count noun

Count noun?

[Richard Heathfield]

On 20/06/16 17:44, Henning Schröder wrote:

<snip>

> I have never heard the term used for leg cramps induced by
> "punching" (who punches people in the legs?)

Scenario:

When the class bully is sitting next to the class wimp, a punch to the
leg is not only easy but very effective. In the playground, the blow is
delivered with the knee. In the UK, this is (or, at least, used to be in
the 1970s) called giving "a dead leg".

I was never happy about the word "giving" when used in that context. It
was an early indication that one should always look a gift horse in the
mouth.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[Charles Bishop]

In article <MPG.31d2351...@news.individual.net>,

Not to dispute you, but

I'd say I had "a charley horse", not "charley horse".

Also, I suspect the pronunciation of charley horse, referring to the
cramp, would be different from any pronunciation referring to drugs.
That is the cramp is almost one word, but, well I dunno - would a drug
dealer likely say "charley horse" as an advertisement for what he had,
or would there be more information given?

Thirdly, with my accent being different, I suspect they wouldn't give me
much credence as a purveyor of drugs, not being local, like.

--
charles

[Charles Bishop]

In article <nk96he$f23$1...@news.mixmin.net>,
Henning Schröder <henning.schroder@1&1.de> wrote:

Me too. I think any punches, and they would be in the arm are unlikely
to produce a charley horse rather than pain from the punch. I find it
possible that kids, hearing the term would apply it to such pain not
knowing the cause of pain in a charley horse. All without any real facts.

--
charles

[Robert Bannister]

On 20/06/2016 8:12 AM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> [Cross-posts removed]
>
> On 20/06/16 00:58, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
>> In article <nk79kv$h2q$1...@news.mixmin.net>
>> Henning =?iso-8859-1?q?Schr=F6der?= <henning.schroder@1&1.de> posted:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> Any ideas where the term "charley horse" comes from?
>>
>> Charley horse
>>
>> http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/site/comments/charley_horse/
>>
>> Charley horse
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charley_horse
>>
>> Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi

>
> Thanks for the reply, and for your sterling efforts in conducting what
> was obviously some weighty and time-consuming research. I have a
> follow-up question: why did you feel the need to cross-post your reply
> to EIGHT other groups?
>

I was intrigued by the Wiki article suggesting potassium supplements as
a possible cure. Everyone else seems to suggest magnesium, which I take
and which does seem to help.

--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[Robert Bannister]

On 20/06/2016 11:11 AM, David Kleinecke wrote:
> On Sunday, June 19, 2016 at 8:03:26 PM UTC-7, Henning Schröder wrote:
>> Horace LaBadie auf Sun, 19 Jun 2016 20:43:56 -0400 geschrieben ...
>>
>>> One suggests that it was named for Charley Esper, who had a
>>> halting gait, like that of a lame horse.
>>
>> The reference that was originally given says that Charley Esper
>> STARTED playing baseball well AFTER the term was in use.
>>
>> http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/site/comments/charley_horse/
>>
>> "Other tales of the origin of charley horse can be discounted
>> because the term was in use before the protagonist came to be.
>> Perhaps the most famous of these states that the term is after
>> Charlie “Duke” Esper, a southpaw pitcher for the Baltimore
>> Orioles, who is said to have “walked like a lame horse.”
>> Unfortunately for this story, Esper didn’t start playing
>> until 1894, well after the term was established. "
>
> What were cramps called before CH was coined?
>

"Cramps" like in every other English-speaking country? Only a guess, of
course.

[Ross]

Likewise.

For a time, I had a little spray-bottle containing what was said
to be a homeopathic cramp remedy. If I had a particularly bad
attack at night, I would put a couple of squirts on my tongue
and...well, it got better. This did not convert me to a belief
in homeopathy -- I can think of too many alternative explanations --
but it was kind of comforting.

[Henning Schröder]

Charles Bishop auf Mon, 20 Jun 2016 16:27:26 -0700 geschrieben ...

> Me too. I think any punches, and they would be in the arm are unlikely
> to produce a charley horse rather than pain from the punch. I find it
> possible that kids, hearing the term would apply it to such pain not
> knowing the cause of pain in a charley horse. All without any real facts.

While presenting someone else's powerpoint slides as proof of concept
is dangerous because of what is not written down (and otherwise said),
I present this document which pretty much seems to agree with you
(and with me) that the "punch" induced reflex is NOT a charley horse.
http://www.kumc.edu/Documents/neurology/03.11.2016_KATZBERG_Cramps%20in%20Neuromuscular%20Diseases%20Kansas%20Talk.ppt

That physician should know - so we just need to ensure that we're
interpreting his slides correctly.

Notice, for example, that his primary objective is...
"To define muscle cramps and be able to distinguish them from
other hyperexcitable neurological phenomena [such as being punched
in the arm or leg]".

(BTW, where does the closing double-quote go in the above sentence?
Should the closing quote go before the first square bracket?)

Notice on pg 8 that this doctor specifically describes HOW to determine
a "muscle cramp" or not, by elecdtrophsyiological means (i.e.,
"A neurogenic cramp has a specific needle electromyographic signature,
namely high frequency (50-150 Hz) continuous discharges, which distinguishes
it from other hyperexcitable muscle conditions".

Specifically notice page 11 says that "painful sudden muscle spasms
triggered by sudden stimuli" is NOT a muscle cramp!

[Peter T. Daniels]

A noun that regularly has a singular and a plural -- can be counted.

Contrasted with "mass noun," which ordinarily doesn't appear in the plural
and doesn't take "a" but takes "some" or nothing.

[Henning Schröder]

Richard Heathfield auf Tue, 21 Jun 2016 00:11:12 +0100 geschrieben ...

> Scenario:
>
> When the class bully is sitting next to the class wimp, a punch to the
> leg is not only easy but very effective. In the playground, the blow is
> delivered with the knee. In the UK, this is (or, at least, used to be in
> the 1970s) called giving "a dead leg".
>
> I was never happy about the word "giving" when used in that context. It
> was an early indication that one should always look a gift horse in the
> mouth.

This presentation, whose primary purpose is to distinguish muscle cramps
from other "hyperexcitable muscle conditions", pretty convincingly (to me)
says that what you describe is NOT a muscle cramp (as measured by the
concomitant electromyographic signature).

http://www.kumc.edu/Documents/neurology/03.11.2016_KATZBERG_Cramps%20in%20Neuromuscular%20Diseases%20Kansas%20Talk.ppt

[Henning Schröder]

Robert Bannister auf Tue, 21 Jun 2016 08:43:19 +0800 geschrieben ...

> I was intrigued by the Wiki article suggesting potassium supplements as
> a possible cure. Everyone else seems to suggest magnesium, which I take
> and which does seem to help.

I wish I had a better description for what you just stated than to say you
subscribe to an "urban myth".

I don't fault you for being completely unscientific because I too would
"assume" or "guess" that either hydration or electrolyte imbalance would
be a contributing condition to a charley horse.

It just seems "logical" to a rational person, just as it seems logical
that their brake rotors "warped" or that they got a cold from being outside
in bad weather, or that higher octane gasoline is (somehow) inherently
"better" than lower octane fuel or that you can be "immune" to poison
oak, or that the earth revolves around the sun, or that gravity is a
force, or that the centrifugal force is a "real" force, or that dna
is the "blueprint" for life, etc.

All these are "things" that I have no better term for other than
"urban myth", but it's really not "urban" and it's not so much a
myth as an abomination of logical thought gone astray solely due
to complete lack of any scientific rigor on the part of billions
of people who just don't think things through scientifically.

I don't mean that as an insult; I simply mean that as an observation
that out of the billions of people on earth, probably a few million
have the capability to logically think things through by seeking
"true" scientific evidence to back up their thought processes.

Most of the billions of people on earth, frustratingly, will just
outright state that electrolyte imbalance or dehydration is both
the cause and cure - which is so frustrating to a logical thinker
such as I am - that I wish there was a term for this that is better
than the word "urban myth", which is the best that I can come up
with but which doesn't adequately display the error in thought.

Here's a paper which very clearly states (verbatim):
"Neither exercise-related cramps nor nocturnal cramps have been
associated with hypovolemia (caused by dehydration) or disturbances
of electrolytes such as potassium, sodium, and magnesium.7,8
One study of patients with nonalcoholic cirrhosis demonstrated that
leg cramps are not related to changes in the levels of creatinine,
calcium, magnesium, sodium, potassium, zinc, glucose, alanine
transaminase, total bilirubin, or albumin.10"

PS: Does the double quote go outside the reference number, or inside?

While those scientists "could" be wrong, I suspect we should read the
references first, where reference 7 & 8 & 10 are respectively:
7. Schwellnus MP, Nicol J, Laubscher R, Noakes TD. Serum electrolyte concentrations and hydration status are not associated with exercise associated muscle cramping (EAMC) in distance runners. Br J Sports Med. 2004;38(4):488–492.

8. Sulzer NU, Schwellnus MP, Noakes TD. Serum electrolytes in Ironman triathletes with exercise-associated muscle cramping. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2005;37(7):1081–1085.

10. Baskol M, Ozbakir O, Coskun R, Baskol G, Saraymen R, Yucesoy M. The role of serum zinc and other factors on the prevalence of muscle cramps in non-alcoholic cirrhotic patients. J Clin Gastroenterol. 2004;38(6):524–529.

PS: Do any of you in EDU world have access to those three reference papers?

[Henning Schröder]

Henning Schröder auf Tue, 21 Jun 2016 04:05:17 +0000 geschrieben ...

> Here's a paper which very clearly states (verbatim):
> "Neither exercise-related cramps nor nocturnal cramps have been
> associated with hypovolemia (caused by dehydration) or disturbances
> of electrolytes such as potassium, sodium, and magnesium.7,8
> One study of patients with nonalcoholic cirrhosis demonstrated that
> leg cramps are not related to changes in the levels of creatinine,
> calcium, magnesium, sodium, potassium, zinc, glucose, alanine
> transaminase, total bilirubin, or albumin.10"
>
> PS: Does the double quote go outside the reference number, or inside?
>
> While those scientists "could" be wrong, I suspect we should read the
> references first, where reference 7 & 8 & 10 are respectively:
> 7. Schwellnus MP, Nicol J, Laubscher R, Noakes TD. Serum electrolyte concentrations and hydration status are not associated with exercise associated muscle cramping (EAMC) in distance runners. Br J Sports Med. 2004;38(4):488–492.
>
> 8. Sulzer NU, Schwellnus MP, Noakes TD. Serum electrolytes in Ironman triathletes with exercise-associated muscle cramping. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2005;37(7):1081–1085.
>
> 10. Baskol M, Ozbakir O, Coskun R, Baskol G, Saraymen R, Yucesoy M. The role of serum zinc and other factors on the prevalence of muscle cramps in non-alcoholic cirrhotic patients. J Clin Gastroenterol. 2004;38(6):524–529.
>
> PS: Do any of you in EDU world have access to those three reference papers?

Oooooooops. I forgot to include the paper.
Mea culpa.

Here is the reference I pin my "logical thought process" upon, rather than
upon what I can only term presently as an "urban myth"...
http://www.aafp.org/afp/2012/0815/p350.html

If anyone can obtain the three references numbered 7, 8, and 10, I'd
be very happy to read them and summarize the results for everyone to
benefit from.

[Henning Schröder]

Robert Bannister auf Tue, 21 Jun 2016 08:48:59 +0800 geschrieben ...

> "Cramps" like in every other English-speaking country? Only a guess, of
> course.

This is the best scientific summary of what a "muscle cramp" really
is, as far as I can yet find on the Internet...

http://www.kumc.edu/Documents/neurology/03.11.2016_KATZBERG_Cramps%20in%20Neuromuscular%20Diseases%20Kansas%20Talk.ppt

Notice that on page 6, they define:
"Definition : Muscle Cramps"

Where the definition is taken from:
Miller et al. Muscle Nerve 2005.

1. Acutely painful, explosive onset, resulting in visible, palpable
contraction in one muscle or part of a muscle, with persistent soreness

2. Associate with trivial movements or forceful contraction (especially
in already shortened muscle)

3. Stretching the muscle usually terminates cramp

4. A neurogenic cramp has a specific needle electromyographic signature,

namely high frequency (50-150 Hz) continuous discharges, which

distinguishes it from other hyperexcitable muscle conditions

Unfortunately, the word "miller" is only used in that one page,
but a search for his paper reveals that it might be this:
Miller TM, Layzer RB (2005). "Muscle cramps". Muscle Nerve 32 (4): 431–42. doi:10.1002/mus.20341. PMID 15902691.
which is mentioned in this (rather confusingly written) paper:
http://www.sciencepub.net/newyork/ny0603/002_16246bny0603_9_16.pdf

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Henning Schröder wrote *again* something about "Charley Horse":
>
[snip]
>
Enough already! Reicht schon!

--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~

[Henning Schröder]

Reinhold {Rey} Aman auf Mon, 20 Jun 2016 21:24:05 -0700 geschrieben ...

> Enough already! Reicht schon!


I will open a separate thread asking the tangentially related
question of a.u.e, which is what would you call the "urban myths"
that are simply logical thoughts that everyone has but which
don't have any scientific basis.

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Henning Schröder wrote:
>
> Reinhold {Rey} Aman auf Mon, 20 Jun 2016 21:24:05 -0700 geschrieben ...

^^^
BTW, that's butchered German. Either:

Reinhold {Rey} Aman hat am Mon, 20 Jun 2016 21:24:05 -0700 geschrieben ...
^^^^^^
Or:

Reinhold {Rey} Aman schrieb am Mon, 20 Jun 2016 21:24:05 -0700 ...
^^^^^^^^^^
No charge.

[Rich Ulrich]

Thirty minutes ago, a conversation on the James Corden late night
talk show mentioned a "frog" as the immediate bump raised by a
punch in the arm. That's the term that I remember, too.

--
Rich Ulrich

[Janet]

In article <1490f75e-6624-466e...@googlegroups.com>,
gram...@verizon.net says...

Only if your legs are American, which mine are not.

Janet

[RH Draney]

On 6/21/2016 3:55 AM, Janet wrote:
> In article <1490f75e-6624-466e...@googlegroups.com>,
> gram...@verizon.net says...
>

>> "Charlie horse" is a count noun: you get a charlie horse in your leg.
>
> Only if your legs are American, which mine are not.

I suppose you lot get a "Lorne moose" instead....r

[Peter Moylan]

On 2016-Jun-21 13:42, Henning Schröder wrote:

> Notice, for example, that his primary objective is...
> "To define muscle cramps and be able to distinguish them from
> other hyperexcitable neurological phenomena [such as being punched
> in the arm or leg]".
>
> (BTW, where does the closing double-quote go in the above sentence?
> Should the closing quote go before the first square bracket?)

Put the bracketed material inside the quotation marks if it's a
paraphrase of what the author said, i.e. if he made it clear that being
punched in the arm or leg falls within his definition of "other
hyperexcitable neurological phenomena". Put it outside if it's just your
extrapolation without evidence. In the latter case, of course, you're
going beyond what the paper said, so you'd need some kind of supporting
argument.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Peter Moylan]

On 2016-Jun-21 20:55, Janet wrote:
> In article <1490f75e-6624-466e...@googlegroups.com>,
> gram...@verizon.net says...

>> "Charlie horse" is a count noun: you get a charlie horse in your leg.
>
> Only if your legs are American, which mine are not.

How does this work if you're half-American? Left leg only?

[Peter T. Daniels]

I don't know what you're commenting on.

Is it the spelling? The best-known Charlies, Chaplin and Sheen, are both
<Charlie> (one of them British).

Is it the Scottish drug slang? I wouldn't know.

I also did not know the composition of a speedball.

[Janet]

In article <nkbal...@news6.newsguy.com>, dado...@cox.net says...

Us lot don't have mooses either.

Janet

[CDB]

On 21/06/2016 8:04 AM, RH Draney wrote:

> Janet wrote:
>> gram...@verizon.net says...

>>> "Charlie horse" is a count noun: you get a charlie horse in your
>>> leg.

>> Only if your legs are American, which mine are not.

> I suppose you lot get a "Lorne moose" instead....r

That sounds cispondial, and Janet is farther east.

They got the haggis blaggers,
The Glenfiddich staggers
Got the stocking daggers
And the Saxon-slaggers,
They got plaidies right down to their knees,
Like to play the bagpipes just to hear our desperate pleas,
Come together,
Or dinna,
As ye please.

[bill van]

I asked a poster in another group who writes about early baseball
whether he could add anything, and told him that Charles (Old Hoss)
Radbourn had been suggested as a possible source of the term Charley
horse.

His reply:

I looked up the discussion on aue. I see that the term has been dated
to 1886 at wordorigins.org. Dave Wilton is very good, and I would take
him at his word. Of course any earliest citation is tentative, but
given my extensive reading up through 1884, I expect that if the term is
earlier it was rare.

I thought of Radbourn. The idea has a "Just So" air to it, but I
suppose it could be true.
--
bill

[Mark Brader]

Synchronicity. Two days ago, Henning Schröder asked:

> Any idea where the term "charley horse" comes from?
> Is it American only?

Yesterday, the old game show "The $25,000 Pyramid" returned to the
cable channel GSN. They started with the first episode to have that
title, from 1982. And one of the answers that the players had to
identify in the first phase of the game was "charley horse".

(By the way, it was in a category about things related to running.)
--
Mark Brader | "You have seen this incident, based on sworn
Toronto | testimony. Can you prove that it didn't happen?"
m...@vex.net | -- Ed Wood, Plan 9 from Outer Space

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[bosod...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, June 19, 2016 at 5:12:11 PM UTC-7, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> [Cross-posts removed]
>
> On 20/06/16 00:58, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
> > In article <nk79kv$h2q$1...@news.mixmin.net>
> > Henning =?iso-8859-1?q?Schr=F6der?= <henning.schroder@1&1.de> posted:
>
> <snip>
>
> >> Any ideas where the term "charley horse" comes from?
> >
> > Charley horse
> >
> > http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/site/comments/charley_horse/
> >
> > Charley horse
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charley_horse
> >
> > Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
>
> Thanks for the reply, and for your sterling efforts in conducting what
> was obviously some weighty and time-consuming research. I have a
> follow-up question: why did you feel the need to cross-post your reply
> to EIGHT other groups?
>

> --
> Richard Heathfield
> Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
> "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
> Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

R U upset cuz Dr. Jai dinnt Courtsey and say "Lemme google that for you"?

Here, lemme do it: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Whence+the+term+%22Charley+Horse%22&l=1

[John Dawkins]

In article <1490f75e-6624-466e...@googlegroups.com>,

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

> On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 1:15:38 PM UTC-4, Janet wrote:
> > In article <nk7cn1$q4k$1...@dont-email.me>, mam...@earthlink.net says...
>
> > > [SOED]
> > >
> > > charley horse, noun phr.
> > > /"tSA;li hO;s/
> > > N. Amer. slang. L19.
> > > [Origin unkn.]
> > >
> > > Stiffness or cramp in an arm or a leg.
> >
> > If you came to Scotland and announced you had charlie horse people
> > would think you're a drug dealer.
> >
> > charlie- street name for cocaine
> > horse--- heroin
>
> Is "cocaine heroin" a thing?

You could ask John Belushi, were he still alive.
--
J.

[Henning Schröder]

Peter Moylan auf Tue, 21 Jun 2016 22:05:10 +1000 geschrieben ...

> Put the bracketed material inside the quotation marks if it's a
> paraphrase of what the author said, i.e. if he made it clear that being
> punched in the arm or leg falls within his definition of "other
> hyperexcitable neurological phenomena". Put it outside if it's just your
> extrapolation without evidence. In the latter case, of course, you're
> going beyond what the paper said, so you'd need some kind of supporting
> argument.

Thanks for that clarification.
It's a judgement call then, since I extrapolated from what the author
meant, but the author stated it elsewhere in his powerpoint presentation.

Thanks for the advice.

[Henning Schröder]

Rich Ulrich auf Tue, 21 Jun 2016 01:54:03 -0400 geschrieben ...

> Thirty minutes ago, a conversation on the James Corden late night
> talk show mentioned a "frog" as the immediate bump raised by a
> punch in the arm. That's the term that I remember, too.

Sounds apropos.

[Henning Schröder]

bill van auf Tue, 21 Jun 2016 10:54:46 -0700 geschrieben ...

Thanks. What we know is that *all* the references do date back to
the late 1800s and to baseball, so, that much is pretty sure.

The rest of the details turn out to be sketchy.

[Henning Schröder]

Mark Brader auf Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:41:42 -0500 geschrieben ...

> And one of the answers that the players had to
> identify in the first phase of the game was "charley horse".
>
> (By the way, it was in a category about things related to running.)

Based on my read of the references, a "charley horse" is almost
always (if not always) related to "over" exercise (aka fatigued
muscles).

However, since nobody really knows what causes it (they only know
what doesn't cause it), it's hard to say conclusively when it would
happen - but after running is a "typical" case.

[Robert Bannister]

Unfortunately, this does not appear to mention the true causes or cures.
Touching wood or crossing fingers may not save you from the consequences
of telling a lie, but nobody's come up with anything better.

--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[Robert Bannister]

On 21/06/2016 7:24 AM, Charles Bishop wrote:
> In article <MPG.31d2351...@news.individual.net>,

> Janet <nob...@home.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <nk7cn1$q4k$1...@dont-email.me>, mam...@earthlink.net says...
>>>

>>> On 06/19/2016 07:25 PM, Henning Schröder wrote:
>>>> Any idea where the term "charley horse" comes from?
>>>> Is it American only?

>>>
>>> [SOED]
>>>
>>> charley horse, noun phr.
>>> /"tSA;li hO;s/
>>> N. Amer. slang. L19.
>>> [Origin unkn.]
>>>
>>> Stiffness or cramp in an arm or a leg.
>>
>> If you came to Scotland and announced you had charlie horse people
>> would think you're a drug dealer.
>>
>> charlie- street name for cocaine
>> horse--- heroin
>>

>> Janet
>
> Not to dispute you, but
>
> I'd say I had "a charley horse", not "charley horse".
>
> Also, I suspect the pronunciation of charley horse, referring to the
> cramp, would be different from any pronunciation referring to drugs.
> That is the cramp is almost one word, but, well I dunno - would a drug
> dealer likely say "charley horse" as an advertisement for what he had,
> or would there be more information given?
>
> Thirdly, with my accent being different, I suspect they wouldn't give me
> much credence as a purveyor of drugs, not being local, like.
>

But what are we to make of it? I'm not sure whether I'd have thought of
drugs, but it's a very strange expression. I only met it a few years ago
in stories and it took a while for me to guess what it might be.
Certainly nothing I have experienced, and I got punched and kicked
enough times at school - and that was just my friends, but that's what
boys do.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <nkaeds$tog$4...@news.mixmin.net>,

Henning Schröder <henning.schroder@1&1.de> wrote:

> Robert Bannister auf Tue, 21 Jun 2016 08:43:19 +0800 geschrieben ...
>
> > I was intrigued by the Wiki article suggesting potassium supplements as
> > a possible cure. Everyone else seems to suggest magnesium, which I take
> > and which does seem to help.
>
> I wish I had a better description for what you just stated than to say you
> subscribe to an "urban myth".
>
> I don't fault you for being completely unscientific because I too would
> "assume" or "guess" that either hydration or electrolyte imbalance would
> be a contributing condition to a charley horse.
>
> It just seems "logical" to a rational person, just as it seems logical
> that their brake rotors "warped" or that they got a cold from being outside
> in bad weather, or that higher octane gasoline is (somehow) inherently
> "better" than lower octane fuel or that you can be "immune" to poison
> oak, or that the earth revolves around the sun, or that gravity is a
> force, or that the centrifugal force is a "real" force, or that dna
> is the "blueprint" for life, etc.
>
> All these are "things" that I have no better term for other than
> "urban myth", but it's really not "urban" and it's not so much a
> myth as an abomination of logical thought gone astray solely due
> to complete lack of any scientific rigor on the part of billions
> of people who just don't think things through scientifically.

You need a new term, then. They have none of the hallmarks of an urban
legend (or myth) and if you continue to use the phrase, people will
mock, yes, mock, you.

--
charles, could be happening already