29 Best S.F. books (Wired list)

[occam]

I hold Wired magazine in high regard, hence the reason why I am
circulating their list of "29 of the Best Science Fiction Books Everyone
Should Read". Plus I know that there are a few S.F. readers in this group.

<https://www.wired.co.uk/article/best-sci-fi-books>

If you were asked to add one missing book title, which would it be? And
which title would you eliminate from the list, to keep the list to 29 long?

[Jerry Friedman]

The author clearly likes the surrealist side of SF. And 8 of the 29 are from
2015 or later, none of which I've read.

Good choices: /The Moon is a Harsh Mistress/, /Dune/, /The Left Hand
of Darkness/, /Through a Scanner Darkly/, /Neuromancer/, /The
Martian/.

Replace the /Foundation/ series with /The Gods Themselves/, also by
Asimov.

Replace /The Stars My Destination/ with /The Demolished Man/, also by
Bester.

Replace /Oryx and Crake/ with /The Handmaid's Tale/, also by Atwood.

Replace /The Three-Body Problem/ with /Childhood's End/, by Clarke.

Replace /Consider Phlebas/ with /Engine Summer/, by John Crowley.

Replace /Jurassic Park/ (I haven't read it, but I can just tell) with /The
Book of the New Sun/, by Gene Wolfe.

I can probably think of books I can replace /Hyperion/ and /Snow Crash/
with.

--
Jerry Friedman

[spains...@gmail.com]

"1984" and "The Day of the Triffids" are conspicuous by their absence.
I struggled with "The War of the Worlds" so I wouldn't advocate it.

On the other hand giants falling from the moon would make good SF,
so maybe this can squeeze into the genre. Three excerpts:

"For as to what we have heard you affirm, that there are
other kingdoms and states in the world inhabited by human
creatures as large as yourself, our philosophers are in much
doubt, and would rather conjecture that you dropped from the
moon, or one of the stars; because it is certain, that a
hundred mortals of your bulk would in a short time destroy
all the fruits and cattle of his majesty’s dominions: besides,
our histories of six thousand moons make no mention of any
other regions than the two great empires of Lilliput and
Blefuscu. Which two mighty powers have, as I was going to
tell you, been engaged in a most obstinate war for
six-and-thirty moons past."

"It began upon the following occasion. It is allowed on all
hands, that the primitive way of breaking eggs, before we eat
them, was upon the larger end; but his present majesty’s
grandfather, while he was a boy, going to eat an egg, and
breaking it according to the ancient practice, happened to
cut one of his fingers. Whereupon the emperor his father
published an edict, commanding all his subjects, upon great
penalties, to break the smaller end of their eggs. The people
so highly resented this law, that our histories tell us, there
have been six rebellions raised on that account; wherein one
emperor lost his life, and another his crown. These civil
commotions were constantly fomented by the monarchs of
Blefuscu; and when they were quelled, the exiles always fled
for refuge to that empire."

"It is computed that eleven thousand persons have at several
times suffered death, rather than submit to break their eggs
at the smaller end. Many hundred large volumes have been
published upon this controversy: but the books of the
Big-endians have been long forbidden, and the whole party
rendered incapable by law of holding employments. During the
course of these troubles, the emperors of Blefusca did
frequently expostulate by their ambassadors, accusing us of
making a schism in religion, by offending against a fundamental
doctrine of our great prophet Lustrog, in the fifty-fourth
chapter of the Blundecral (which is their Alcoran). This,
however, is thought to be a mere strain upon the text; for the
words are these: ‘that all true believers break their eggs at
the convenient end.’ And which is the convenient end, seems,
in my humble opinion to be left to every man’s conscience, or
at least in the power of the chief magistrate to determine."

[bruce bowser]

I like the Star Trek novels and genre. I like the series because their writers and producers keep such a reverential relationship with actual physicists, chemists, astronomers and others in the scientific community.

[Mack A. Damia]

Harry Bates, "Farewell to the Master" (1940)

Remove "Frankenstein", not the right genre; it is "horror". Some will
disagree.

[Adam Funk]

Do most people consider _1984_ as SF now?

I'm surprised nothing by John Wyndham is on the list.

--
You cannot really appreciate Dilbert unless you've read it in the
original Klingon. ---Klingon Programmer's Guide

[spains...@gmail.com]

SF is a modern terminology (like "racism"). "Frankenstein" was indeed "Horror",
so it should be "Fahrenheit 451" for Frankenstein.

[Mack A. Damia]

What genre is "1984"?

If it is SF, then it belongs on the list.

[lar3ryca]

I have not read 16 of the books.

I would remove
Frankenstein
Jurassic Park
Hyperion
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
and replace them with
The Diamond Age, Neal Stephenson
Realtime series, Vernor Vinge
A Fire Upon the Deep, Vernor Vinge
Makers, Cory Doctorow

[spains...@gmail.com]

Of course it belongs there; but it isn't on the list. "Fahrenheit 451" is
the temperature required to destroy books - as the Nazis (or Ray
Bradbury) would have you believe.

I vote "The Day of the Triffids" the scariest SF book. Modern films such
as "The Terminator" reach across to another level of scariness.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 13:16:21 -0800 (PST), "spains...@gmail.com"

Books often bore me. I am talking more about fiction than non-
fiction. Even so, I have had eye problems all of my adult life. I
suffer from diplopia and have strong prisms in my lenses. My eyes get
tired very easily. I really do prefer movie versions.

[Peter Moylan]

What strikes me about this list is that it contains so many books that I
have never read; and, in some cases, would never want to read, judging
by their descriptions.

I was surprised to see Liu Cixin on the list. I have read just one of
his/her books, and that was sufficient for me to say "never again". It
was a steaming pile of crap.

(I say his/her because I thought the author was a woman, but that web
page says that he's a man.)

I could put together my own list of 29 must-read SF, but there's not
much point, because everyone has their own preferences. There are even
people who like cyberpunk, I've heard.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[David Kleinecke]

I stopped reading non-technical books about thirty years ago so I am
more than a little out-of-date. I have a problem in that I read magazines
to get my SF not books and I let my subscription to Astounding lapse
about fifty years ago. But here goes:

If you want scary nothing beats John W. Campbells "Who Goes There".
And Campbell also wrote "Twilight" which is only a short story and
doesn't belong here.

If you want fantasy I would suggest "The Worm Ourboros".

If you are thinking about dying: Huxley's "Island".

Time will tell and perhaps A. E. van Vogt will be forgotten but I think
his work desires a mention somewhere. And then there was Doc
Smith.

PS: Re dying: Sendaks "Higglety Piggelty Pop" if you lose a loved one.

[Mack A. Damia]

I guess another factor is that my suspension of disbelief passed away
decades ago. For example, I have studied enough about the universe,
et al, to believe that interplanetary space travel to the planet Earth
by alien civilizations was and is highly to almost unlikely. I can
see us flying to Mars in decades to come, but humans will not escape
the Solar System by a long shot.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Thursday, November 25, 2021 at 4:50:15 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 25/11/21 22:00, occam wrote:
> >
> > I hold Wired magazine in high regard, hence the reason why I am
> > circulating their list of "29 of the Best Science Fiction Books
> > Everyone Should Read". Plus I know that there are a few S.F. readers
> > in this group.
> >
> > <https://www.wired.co.uk/article/best-sci-fi-books>
> >
> > If you were asked to add one missing book title, which would it be?
> > And which title would you eliminate from the list, to keep the list
> > to 29 long?

> What strikes me about this list is that it contains so many books that I
> have never read; and, in some cases, would never want to read, judging
> by their descriptions.
>
> I was surprised to see Liu Cixin on the list. I have read just one of
> his/her books, and that was sufficient for me to say "never again". It
> was a steaming pile of crap.

...

I thought /The Three-Body Problem/ started quite well.

--
Jerry Friedman

[musika]

On 26/11/2021 01:24, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> I guess another factor is that my suspension of disbelief passed away
> decades ago. For example, I have studied enough about the universe,
> et al, to believe that interplanetary space travel to the planet Earth
> by alien civilizations was and is highly to almost unlikely. I can
> see us flying to Mars in decades to come, but humans will not escape
> the Solar System by a long shot.
>

I think that humans will *only* escape the Solar System by a long shot.


--
Ray
UK

[Mack A. Damia]

On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 02:07:28 +0000, musika <mUs...@NOSPAMexcite.com>
wrote:

Maybe it is better to say, "never say never", and who am I to say what
may be possible in, say, a thousand years, but nine billion miles is a
long way to travel. And where will they be going? How will they
return? (Answer: They will not return.)

If the universe has been around for fourteen billion years, why don't
we have more evidence of extraterrestrial life? Latest theory is that
the universe has always been here. Plenty of time for other
civilizations on distant worlds to create the technology needed to
visit us IF it is possible.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Thursday, November 25, 2021 at 10:45:09 AM UTC-7, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2021-11-25, spains...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, November 25, 2021 at 3:55:30 PM UTC, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >> On Thursday, November 25, 2021 at 4:00:11 AM UTC-7, occam wrote:
> >> > I hold Wired magazine in high regard, hence the reason why I am
> >> > circulating their list of "29 of the Best Science Fiction Books Everyone
> >> > Should Read". Plus I know that there are a few S.F. readers in this group.
> >> >
> >> > <https://www.wired.co.uk/article/best-sci-fi-books>
> >> >
> >> > If you were asked to add one missing book title, which would it be? And
> >> > which title would you eliminate from the list, to keep the list to 29 long?
> >> The author clearly likes the surrealist side of SF. And 8 of the 29 are from
> >> 2015 or later, none of which I've read.
> >>
> >> Good choices: /The Moon is a Harsh Mistress/, /Dune/, /The Left Hand
> >> of Darkness/, /Through a Scanner Darkly/, /Neuromancer/, /The
> >> Martian/.

...

> > "1984" and "The Day of the Triffids" are conspicuous by their absence.
> > I struggled with "The War of the Worlds" so I wouldn't advocate it.
> Do most people consider _1984_ as SF now?
>
> I'm surprised nothing by John Wyndham is on the list.

...

Nothing by Wyndham would have crossed my mind. I like the suggestion
of /1984/, but it does depend on how you define the genre.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Steve Hayes]

I'll look at the list when I'm back in Windows and can look at the web
more easily.





--
Steve Hayes http://khanya.wordpress.com

[Peter Moylan]

On 26/11/21 02:55, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Thursday, November 25, 2021 at 4:00:11 AM UTC-7, occam wrote:
>> I hold Wired magazine in high regard, hence the reason why I am
>> circulating their list of "29 of the Best Science Fiction Books
>> Everyone Should Read". Plus I know that there are a few S.F.
>> readers in this group.
>>
>> <https://www.wired.co.uk/article/best-sci-fi-books>
>>
>> If you were asked to add one missing book title, which would it
>> be? And which title would you eliminate from the list, to keep the
>> list to 29 long?
>
> The author clearly likes the surrealist side of SF. And 8 of the 29
> are from 2015 or later, none of which I've read.
>
> Good choices: /The Moon is a Harsh Mistress/, /Dune/, /The Left Hand
> of Darkness/, /Through a Scanner Darkly/, /Neuromancer/, /The
> Martian/.

I see that people are avoiding naming more than one work by any author,
but personally I'd place /The Dispossessed/ slightly ahead of
/The Left Hand of Darkness/, although I'd say those two are running neck
and neck among the all-time greats.

To forestall one possible objection: the only thing she stole from
Dostoevsky is the title. (And that was taken from an English
translation, not from the Russian original.) The content is totally
different.

> Replace the /Foundation/ series with /The Gods Themselves/, also by
> Asimov.

It depends on the selection criteria. /The Gods Themselves/ is the
better novel, but /Foundation/ is more important in terms of historical
context. But if we end up talking about major influences on the field,
I'll throw in Farmer's /The Lovers/, even though it's far from being his
best work. The reason I mention this is that I think the Wired list is
focusing on "major influences" rather than "good reads".

I have no strong feelings about the rest of your list.

[Rich Ulrich]

On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 10:50:08 +1100, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 25/11/21 22:00, occam wrote:
>>
>> I hold Wired magazine in high regard, hence the reason why I am
>> circulating their list of "29 of the Best Science Fiction Books
>> Everyone Should Read". Plus I know that there are a few S.F. readers
>> in this group.
>>
>> <https://www.wired.co.uk/article/best-sci-fi-books>
>>
>> If you were asked to add one missing book title, which would it be?
>> And which title would you eliminate from the list, to keep the list
>> to 29 long?
>
>What strikes me about this list is that it contains so many books that I
>have never read; and, in some cases, would never want to read, judging
>by their descriptions.

Yes, my reaction, generally. You say, books would never want to read
"in some cases." I took no note of any title I should look for.

This list makes me think of English majors plus magazine staff,
rather than SF nerds.

>
>I was surprised to see Liu Cixin on the list. I have read just one of
>his/her books, and that was sufficient for me to say "never again". It
>was a steaming pile of crap.

My big exclusion was Crichton, whom I consider to be
outside the genre. SF written and read by non-SF people --
not having the virtues of SF imagination.

>
>(I say his/her because I thought the author was a woman, but that web
>page says that he's a man.)
>
>I could put together my own list of 29 must-read SF, but there's not
>much point, because everyone has their own preferences. There are even
>people who like cyberpunk, I've heard.

I read and recommend /series/ for the most part, if I am not
recommending an author for everything. When I have a
quick reaction, "This is a great book!" -- I don't always feel
the same after several years and several readings.

List: Dune was great; the original trilogy is worth reading.

I do recommend Le Guin, for two books that still seem great.
My small collection has both The Dispossessed and The Left
Hand of Darkness.

The Foundation Trilogy (not the added volumes).

Beyond the list?
Old timers? Authors? Anything by Robert Heinlein, A.E. Van
Vogt, James H. Schmitz. I loved a trilogy of small books by
Alexei Panshin about Anthony Villiers.

The (very old) Lensmen series by E.E. Doc Smith was the
first SF series that grabbed me, if I read that before Foundation.

Modern series? Authors: Lois McMaster Bujold. John Scalzi.
Patricia Briggs. Tanya Huff. Steven Gould.

--
Rich Ulrich

[Peter Moylan]

On 26/11/21 18:27, Rich Ulrich wrote:

> List: Dune was great; the original trilogy is worth reading.

I disagree with that second statement. The first book was great. All of
the sequels (up to the point where I stopped reading them) disappointed me.

[occam]

No, they don't. It is social fiction (s.f. ?)- a hypothetical scenario
set in 1984.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, November 26, 2021 at 2:27:37 AM UTC-5, Rich Ulrich wrote:

> My big exclusion was Crichton, whom I consider to be
> outside the genre. SF written and read by non-SF people --
> not having the virtues of SF imagination.

I read *The Andromeda Strain* -- and crossed Crichton off the list forever.
Space microbes menace Earth, scientists can't come up with a treatment,
space virus goes away, author has accomplished nothing..

[Rich Ulrich]

On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 02:27:27 -0500, Rich Ulrich

me>

>I do recommend Le Guin, for two books that still seem great.
>My small collection has both The Dispossessed and The Left
>Hand of Darkness.

I wanted to imply that I have gotten rid of a whole lot of
books, but I have saved those two.

My "small collection" has a few hundred books, out of the
thousands that I have bought over the years. I have been
selective in what I do not pass along to libraries or family, so
I think it is a "collection" instead of being "a bunch of books."

It takes up five bookcases and variouis piles (read and unread)
that could fill another. I live in an apartment, and shelf space for
books competes with space for discs - CDs, DVDs, BluRay.

Mine would be a "large" book collection, compared to all the
homes that I remember visiting as a youth in a small town in
Texas. My parents had "quite a few" books but Mom relied
on the library. We kids had very small collections of children's
books, and library cards.

But I think of "large collection" as describing the 10 thousand or
so books (mostly on shelves in the basement) of my earliest friends
in Pittsburgh, Professor King and Professor Mrs. King. They had
two bright, well-read children. So, a reading household, with
cash to spare for books, and space to store them.

I figure that the regulars of aue are almost all avid readers,
though not necessarily of fiction (which there is so much of).

Do some readers prefer NOT to have a collection as big as they
can afford and have room for? I think there's a good chance
I would have de-acquistioned quite a few books over the years,
even if I had had space for them. About a thousand seems like
enough, a "moderate sized collection" -- I say, today.

--
Rich Ulrich

[Ken Blake]

On 11/25/2021 4:50 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 25/11/21 22:00, occam wrote:
>>
>> I hold Wired magazine in high regard, hence the reason why I am
>> circulating their list of "29 of the Best Science Fiction Books
>> Everyone Should Read". Plus I know that there are a few S.F. readers
>> in this group.
>>
>> <https://www.wired.co.uk/article/best-sci-fi-books>
>>
>> If you were asked to add one missing book title, which would it be?
>> And which title would you eliminate from the list, to keep the list
>> to 29 long?
>
> What strikes me about this list is that it contains so many books that I
> have never read; and, in some cases, would never want to read, judging
> by their descriptions.

Same for me. Back when I was around 10-14, I used to be a SF fan, but
those days are long gone. I've read a few book on the list, but hardly
ever read any SF books nowadays unless they are highly touted by one of
the very few people I know whose taste in books is similar to mine.

[Sam Plusnet]

By a sling shot (manoeuvre)?


--
Sam Plusnet

[bil...@shaw.ca]

I'm overdue for a major culling of my SF collection, which is
comparable in size to yours, by the sound of it. But tastes change.
I used to buy and read everything Roger Zelazny wrote, but a few
months ago I picked up the first book in the Amber series and
couldn't get through the first few pages. It was just too juvenile.
But I used to love that stuff, and I've been procrastinating about
the culling.

However, I'll never get rid of my Le Guin collection, from Dispossessed/Darkness
through the Earthsea books to the wonderful Lavinia, which was not so much
SF or Fantasy as imaginative historical fiction, though full of magic. I regret
never making the pilgrimage to where she lived on the Oregon coast,
though I'm not one to knock on somebody's door uninvited.

bill

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Den 25-11-2021 kl. 12:00 skrev occam:
>
> I hold Wired magazine in high regard, hence the reason why I am
> circulating their list of "29 of the Best Science Fiction Books Everyone
> Should Read". Plus I know that there are a few S.F. readers in this group.
>
> <https://www.wired.co.uk/article/best-sci-fi-books>
>
> If you were asked to add one missing book title, which would it be? And
> which title would you eliminate from the list, to keep the list to 29 long?

Much of the list is far too new for me to know, but I will add my
surprise that nothing by Larry Niven ("Ringworld", anyone?) has made
the list.

/Anders, Denmark

[Paul Wolff]

On Fri, 26 Nov 2021, at 21:18:11, Anders D. Nygaard posted:

Yes indeed - I did appreciate at least the /semblance/ of science in
Niven's work, and then his imaginative use of it. It was good enough to
fool me, anyway. Was Niven a scientist?
--
Paul

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

IAWTP, and have stopped myself from x-posting to any alt.fan.sf NGs.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

Well, I'm sure it's a fun game but I see no reason to stick to 29.

Sounds like one of those clickbait "17 things you must see" (serving
suggestion:) "before you die", or "13 top household cleaning tips etc"
s>

>
> --
> Steve Hayes http://khanya.wordpress.com

[Peter Moylan]

That book was indeed pretty hopeless, and I'm annoyed that I was
suckered into buying it; but I think I've read one or two Crichton books
that I found acceptable. /Timeline/ is the only one I can think of now.

Many would say that Crichton's brand of pseudo-science is not scientific
enough to qualify as SF; but there have been plenty of accepted SF
authors - Van Vogt, for example - whose understanding of science is
laughable.

I think of Crichton as someone, like Vonnegut, who lives in the outer
fringes of SF.

[Peter Moylan]

I am very much an SF fan, but these days I find myself sticking to
re-reading my existing collection. When I go to a bookshop I find that
almost all the books in the SF section are fantasy, a genre that does
not appeal to me. When I do find something that is genuine science
fiction, it disappoints more often than not. There appears to be a new
"new wave" happening, with new writers trying to appeal to book critics
rather than readers.

The only relatively new SF author that I like is Greg Egan, who comes up
with genuinely new ideas and turns them into readable stories. His short
stories are mostly better than his novels.

I tried Peter Hamilton, and after a few chapters wanted to call for an
editor who could trim the book to about 10% of its length. I threw the
book out rather that struggle through the many remaining chapters. With
publishers focusing on thickness rather than content, useless and
unnecessarily boring padding has become fashionable.

[Peter Moylan]

On 27/11/21 07:36, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Nov 2021, at 21:18:11, Anders D. Nygaard posted:
>> Den 25-11-2021 kl. 12:00 skrev occam:
>>> I hold Wired magazine in high regard, hence the reason why I am
>>> circulating their list of "29 of the Best Science Fiction Books
>>> Everyone Should Read". Plus I know that there are a few S.F.
>>> readers in this group.
>>> <https://www.wired.co.uk/article/best-sci-fi-books> If you were
>>> asked to add one missing book title, which would it be? And which
>>> title would you eliminate from the list, to keep the list to 29
>>> long?
>>
>> Much of the list is far too new for me to know, but I will add my
>> surprise that nothing by Larry Niven ("Ringworld", anyone?) has
>> made the list.

Niven is one of the all-time greats of SF, but he hurt his reputation a
bit by writing sequels to /Ringworld/.

Sooner or later, all the top writers run into the trap of writing
sequels. Good for their income, bad for their reputation.

> Yes indeed - I did appreciate at least the /semblance/ of science in
> Niven's work, and then his imaginative use of it. It was good enough
> to fool me, anyway. Was Niven a scientist?

His education was in mathematics, IIRC, but I have the impression that
he kept self-educating long after graduation.

[Snidely]

I've read that Crichton is anti-scientist, liking to find the mortal
flaws among the lab coats.

/dps

--
The presence of this syntax results from the fact that SQLite is really
a Tcl extension that has escaped into the wild.
<http://www.sqlite.org/lang_expr.html>

[Snidely]

Peter Moylan scribbled something on Friday the 11/26/2021:

I've read one Greg Bear (_Slant_) which WP says is the logical 2nd
novel in his Quantum Logic series. This one was about a surreptitious
application of "nano" to the human species, with it spreading much like
a cold. It also involved a team breaking into a sealed facility, so a
dose of action hero (more Fleming-ish than Film-Franchise-ish).

Should I finish the series, now that I know it is one?

Do other readers here have recommendations on his other books?

Per the Particle:
"Bear is often classified as a hard science fiction author because of
the level of scientific detail in his work. Early in his career, he
also published work as an artist, including illustrations for an early
version of the Star Trek Concordance and covers for Galaxy and F&SF.[1]
He sold his first story, "Destroyers", to Famous Science Fiction in
1967.[1]"

and

"Bear cites Ray Bradbury as the most influential writer in his life. He
met Bradbury in 1967 and had a lifelong correspondence. As a teenager,
Bear attended Bradbury lectures and events in Southern California.[4]"

/dps

--
"This is all very fine, but let us not be carried away be excitement,
but ask calmly, how does this person feel about in in his cooler
moments next day, with six or seven thousand feet of snow and stuff on
top of him?"
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain.

[Peter Moylan]

On 27/11/21 12:58, Snidely wrote:
> Peter Moylan wrote on 11/26/2021 :
>> On 27/11/21 04:39, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> On Friday, November 26, 2021 at 2:27:37 AM UTC-5, Rich Ulrich
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> My big exclusion was Crichton, whom I consider to be outside
>>>> the genre. SF written and read by non-SF people -- not having
>>>> the virtues of SF imagination.
>>>
>>> I read *The Andromeda Strain* -- and crossed Crichton off the
>>> list forever. Space microbes menace Earth, scientists can't come
>>> up with a treatment, space virus goes away, author has
>>> accomplished nothing..
>>
>> That book was indeed pretty hopeless, and I'm annoyed that I was
>> suckered into buying it; but I think I've read one or two Crichton
>> books that I found acceptable. /Timeline/ is the only one I can
>> think of now.
>>
>> Many would say that Crichton's brand of pseudo-science is not
>> scientific enough to qualify as SF; but there have been plenty of
>> accepted SF authors - Van Vogt, for example - whose understanding
>> of science is laughable.
>>
>> I think of Crichton as someone, like Vonnegut, who lives in the
>> outer fringes of SF.
>
> I've read that Crichton is anti-scientist, liking to find the mortal
> flaws among the lab coats.

I didn't know that. A bit like C S Lewis, then.

I've just looked up the Wikipedia article on him, and it does mention
his having been a science sceptic. It also includes the word
"techno-thriller", which is a good label for his kind of writing.

Having looked at the list of his books, I withdraw my comment about his
being on the fringe of SF. None of them qualify as SF.

My positive comment on /Timeline/ still stands. It's a good mediaeval
adventure story, and I would happily re-read it. The science is shonky,
though.

[Jerry Friedman]

I'm told that some people consider the first book in that series, /Queen
of Angels/, a classic, and found / disappointing.

(As long as I'm using slashes for italics, I should probably call the
second book ///.)

> Do other readers here have recommendations on his other books?

/Blood Music/ was good--another nano-takeover book. I rather liked
his fantasy duology, /The Infinity Concerto/ and /The Serpent Mage/,
though maybe it didn't hold together.

> Per the Particle:
> "Bear is often classified as a hard science fiction author because of
> the level of scientific detail in his work. Early in his career, he
> also published work as an artist, including illustrations for an early
> version of the Star Trek Concordance and covers for Galaxy and F&SF.[1]
> He sold his first story, "Destroyers", to Famous Science Fiction in
> 1967.[1]"

Yes, I think it's safe to say that when scientifically impossible things happen
in his stories, he knows it.

> and
>
> "Bear cites Ray Bradbury as the most influential writer in his life. He
> met Bradbury in 1967 and had a lifelong correspondence. As a teenager,
> Bear attended Bradbury lectures and events in Southern California.[4]"

Another science skeptic or maybe technology skeptic, who Spains has
mentioned. /The Martian Chronicles/ might be on my list of 29 (or 30 or
31).

--
Jerry Friedman

[J. J. Lodder]

Not really, but he was obviously well-read in it.
My impression was that Niven's writing didn't improve
once he started collaborating with Jerry Pournelle.
(to put it mildly)

Looking Pournelle up I learned several new (to me) words,
like paleoconservative, Dark Enlightenment,
paleolibertarianism, etc.

So worse than even Heinlein,

Jan

[Lewis]

Without some sort of way to avoid the light speed barrier, the math just
doesn't work; it is thousands of years of normal propulsion just to get
to the nearest star.


--
Kickboxing. Sport of the future.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I enjoyed Pournelle's articles in Byte [The writer in Byte that I
enjoyed the most, however, was Dick Pountain] as long as he confined
himself to computing. He was almost the only pundit to argue against
the stampede to C, the archetypal write-only language. On the other
hand I ignored his political views. I imagine that at the end of his
life he supported the nascent Trxxx regime, apart from its being too
far to the left.

>
> So worse than even Heinlein,

===

As others have mentioned, the time has come to get rid of a lot of
books, as I don't want to saddle my daughter with a problem. I find
that no matter how many I give away or dump there seem to be just as
many left. Disposing of my science-fiction collection, on the other
hand, will be easy, consisting as it does of two books, Ossian's Ride
and The Black Cloud: a single walk to the recycling bin will be
sufficient.


--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

[Lewis]

It's a very short list, and it has a lousy book at #2.

However, it redeems itself a bit with the choice of The Stars My
Destination is an excellent book, and much overlooked.

I would have picked a later Iain Banks book, I think, and I would have
not included Jurassic Park, but maybe The Andromeda Strain.

There are certainly some holes, but in a list of only 29 there are going
to be many holes. In a list of 100 there would be a lot of holes.

<https://www.listchallenges.com/npr-top-100-science-fiction-and-fantasy-books>

This list 'cheats' a bit by grouping books in a series into a single
listing. I've read a whole lot of these, but certainly not all. A few I
haven't heard of. Even here I note some absences (Wrinkle in Time, Fifth
Season)

--
"Send beer, words simply can't adequately express your gratitude" --
James Sedgwick

[Lewis]

No, but he cared very much about having everything be as accurate as
possible with very few exceptions.

The mechanics of Ringworld are perfect, for example, bu the ring itself
has to be made of something with a tensile strength on par with the
Nuclear Force, so unlikely to be possible. But everything else is very
well thought out and is honed with greater detail in the later books.


--
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so, Brain. But suppose we do the hokey pokey and turn
ourselves around, is that what it's really all about?"

[Lewis]

In message <1pjawuf.w8...@de-ster.xs4all.nl> J. J. Lodder <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
> Paul Wolff <boun...@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:

>> On Fri, 26 Nov 2021, at 21:18:11, Anders D. Nygaard posted:
>> >Den 25-11-2021 kl. 12:00 skrev occam:
>> >> I hold Wired magazine in high regard, hence the reason why I am
>> >> circulating their list of "29 of the Best Science Fiction Books Everyone
>> >> Should Read". Plus I know that there are a few S.F. readers in this group.
>> >> <https://www.wired.co.uk/article/best-sci-fi-books>
>> >> If you were asked to add one missing book title, which would it be?
>> >>And
>> >> which title would you eliminate from the list, to keep the list to 29 long?
>> >
>> >Much of the list is far too new for me to know, but I will add my
>> >surprise that nothing by Larry Niven ("Ringworld", anyone?) has made
>> >the list.
>> >
>> Yes indeed - I did appreciate at least the /semblance/ of science in
>> Niven's work, and then his imaginative use of it. It was good enough to
>> fool me, anyway. Was Niven a scientist?

> Not really, but he was obviously well-read in it.
> My impression was that Niven's writing didn't improve
> once he started collaborating with Jerry Pournelle.

The wrote The Mote in God's Eye and The Gripping Hand together, so
there's that. Footfall and Lucifer's Hammer were pretty good too.

I can't think of any Pournelle solo efforts that I've read. I mean, I
know I read a few, but what they were I have no idea as they did not
stick at all. I "met" him via voice chat several years ago (10? perhaps
a bit less) during the period he was still appearing on the occasional
twit.tv podcasts and found him to be both interesting and also pretty
hard core jackass, which was pretty much what he was like on the
podcasts too, only a little more reined in.

> Looking Pournelle up I learned several new (to me) words,
> like paleoconservative, Dark Enlightenment,
> paleolibertarianism, etc.

> So worse than even Heinlein,

Heinlein wrote many books that anyone who is interested in science
fiction should definitely read. Yes, some of them are quite dated in
various ways

At a minimum:

Stranger in a Strange Land
The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress
Starship Troopers
Have Space Suit—Will Travel
and maybe The Cat Who Walks Through Walls

--
I used to work in a fire hydrant factory. You couldn't park anywhere
near the place.

[Peter Moylan]

Niven himself seems to lean a long way to the right politically,
although nowhere as far as Pournelle.

Pournelle, apart from his political weirdness, is pretty good as a
writer, especially when he collaborates with Niven. When publishing
alone he focuses too much on war books, which are a bit offputting.

One admirable feature of Niven is that he's helped lesser-known authors
progress by co-authoring with them. One of the more successful
collaborations was /The Flying Sorcerers/, a genuinely funny book, by
Niven and David Gerrold. I've never read anything else by Gerrold, so I
don't know how talented he is, but that book really worked.

[J. J. Lodder]

You have no Emmaus nearby?
If you offer them enough books they will come and collect.

> Disposing of my science-fiction collection, on the other
> hand, will be easy, consisting as it does of two books, Ossian's Ride
> and The Black Cloud: a single walk to the recycling bin will be
> sufficient.

Yes, I know you don't like Fred Hoyle.
'Ossian's Ride' is hardly science fiction, I think.
It is more of a thriller with a marginal SF element.
(secret police, thugs, chases, escapes, and so on)
What little SF there was reappeared in much better form
in his 'A for Andromeda' book and TV series.

Apart from the core SF in 'The Black Cloud'
it offers amusing carricature of the scientific
and political establishment in the British fifties,
which is by itself amusing,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Lewis <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

> In message <+Y6SckPc...@wolff.co.uk> Paul Wolff:

> > On Fri, 26 Nov 2021, at 21:18:11, Anders D. Nygaard posted:
> >>Den 25-11-2021 kl. 12:00 skrev occam:
> >>> I hold Wired magazine in high regard, hence the reason why I am
> >>> circulating their list of "29 of the Best Science Fiction Books Everyone
> >>> Should Read". Plus I know that there are a few S.F. readers in this group.
> >>> <https://www.wired.co.uk/article/best-sci-fi-books>
> >>> If you were asked to add one missing book title, which would it be?
> >>>And which title would you eliminate from the list, to keep the list to
> >>>29 long?
> >>
> >>Much of the list is far too new for me to know, but I will add my
> >>surprise that nothing by Larry Niven ("Ringworld", anyone?) has made
> >>the list.
> >>
> > Yes indeed - I did appreciate at least the /semblance/ of science in
> > Niven's work, and then his imaginative use of it. It was good enough to
> > fool me, anyway. Was Niven a scientist?
>
> No, but he cared very much about having everything be as accurate as
> possible with very few exceptions.
>
> The mechanics of Ringworld are perfect, for example, bu the ring itself
> has to be made of something with a tensile strength on par with the
> Nuclear Force, so unlikely to be possible. But everything else is very
> well thought out and is honed with greater detail in the later books.

Not really. Ringworld, as originally invented, is unstable.
When this was made clear to him he wrote some sequels
about how to stabilise it,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Lewis <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

> In message <AjXnJ.418630$uzv3....@usenetxs.com> musika:

> > On 26/11/2021 01:24, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> >> I guess another factor is that my suspension of disbelief passed away
> >> decades ago. For example, I have studied enough about the universe,
> >> et al, to believe that interplanetary space travel to the planet Earth
> >> by alien civilizations was and is highly to almost unlikely. I can
> >> see us flying to Mars in decades to come, but humans will not escape
> >> the Solar System by a long shot.
> >>
> > I think that humans will *only* escape the Solar System by a long shot.
>
> Without some sort of way to avoid the light speed barrier, the math just
> doesn't work; it is thousands of years of normal propulsion just to get
> to the nearest star.

Not with a Bussard fusion ramjet, if it would work.
(it doesn't)
Niven's was perhaps the last hard core SF author
to get anywhere near lightspeed
while respecting the laws of physics.

Jan

[Lewis]

I find the Nebula nominees are generally good with one or two gawdawful
books in the mix just to keep you awake and make sure your brain is
working.

Recent oned that I thought were excellent:

A Memory Called Empire by Arkady Martine (straight SciFi)
A Desolation Called Peace (sequel)
The Calculating Stars by Mary Robinette Kowal. Part of an alt-
history series, excellent sci-fi.
The Fifth Season series by NK Jemiso
Ninefox Gambit bu Yoon Ha Lee (an excellent sci-fi book that
will take some effort as it just throws you into a totally
unfamiliar world and lets you play catchup as you go along
well worth it.
The Three Body Problem by Lui Cixin, tranlated by Ken Lui. A
mind bending hard-science sci-fi story that, through three
novels ends up covering the entire span of the universe. It
is an excellent series, but it will hurt your head as you
grapple with it's perspective.

* The list is in date order, newest at the top. There are a lot of
other Nebula nominees I would recommend, but they are probably
not what you are looking for. Ther are other nominees that I still
intend to read that people I trust have said are very good, but I
haven’t read them myself.

You might also look for books stores that do "staff recommendations"
and look for ones where the sci-fi recommendations look like they are
thoughtful instead of pushing overstock. Of course, this is getting
harder and hard to to.

There are also various podcast that cover scifi books. Two that I listen
to are the yearly episode on The Incomparable
<https://www.theincomparable.com/theincomparable/> where they cover the
Nebula nominees.

The people on the podcasts read all the books and have differing
opinions, so it is generally pretty easy to pick out the ones you'll be
most interested in.

Most of the episodes are not about books specifically, but the do cover
both the Hugo and nebula nominees every year. Because of this, they have
a separate sub-list that covers just the "book club" episodes going back
over a decade:

<https://www.theincomparable.com/theincomparable/bookclub/>

Lastly, there is goodReads.com (owned by Amazon now) which can be vary
helpful with connection with people with similar tastes, which of course
lets you find other books based on what they are reading. It is not all
that active, but I still find it quite useful.

If you prefer military scfi, the David Weber Honor Harrington novels are
a scifi retelling on the Napoleonic Wars. He does pretty well with the
science and quite well with space battle tactics. I would not say they
are GOOD exactly, but they are entertaining.

> The only relatively new SF author that I like is Greg Egan, who comes up
> with genuinely new ideas and turns them into readable stories. His short
> stories are mostly better than his novels.

> I tried Peter Hamilton, and after a few chapters wanted to call for an
> editor who could trim the book to about 10% of its length.

I can see that. Not only does he write a lot in each book, he churns
them out at a fast clip. I get why some people like him (it's a bot like
feeding yourself cheap chips/crisps).

> I threw the book out rather that struggle through the many remaining
> chapters. With publishers focusing on thickness rather than content,
> useless and unnecessarily boring padding has become fashionable.

It's not the publishers, it's the readers and the author. I refer to it
as the Stephen King problem, as he got more popular, his editors became
less able to cut his stories down. In fact, King republished his novel
The Stand with about 50% more pages than the original. While the new
version is definitely MORE STORY, and it made the ravenous fans of King
very happy, the material he added back in was certainly not necessary
and the original book, already very long, told the same story as
effectively, if not more so.

It happens with any author who gets a solid base of fans that are
basically guaranteed sales. Of course, some of them are better than
others at self-editing or or listening to their editors suggestions
without using their status to overrule those decisions.



--
'Can't argue with the truth, sir.' 'In my experience, Vimes, you can
argue with anything.'

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2021-11-27 13:14:23 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:

> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>
>>
>> [ … ]

>>
>>
>> As others have mentioned, the time has come to get rid of a lot of
>> books, as I don't want to saddle my daughter with a problem. I find
>> that no matter how many I give away or dump there seem to be just as
>> many left.
>
> You have no Emmaus nearby?

Yes

> If you offer them enough books they will come and collect.

I can ask, but I think their interest in books in English will be limited.

>
>> Disposing of my science-fiction collection, on the other
>> hand, will be easy, consisting as it does of two books, Ossian's Ride
>> and The Black Cloud: a single walk to the recycling bin will be
>> sufficient.
>
> Yes, I know you don't like Fred Hoyle.

You oversimplify! I don't like his pretence of knowing more biology
than biologists.

> 'Ossian's Ride' is hardly science fiction, I think.
> It is more of a thriller with a marginal SF element.
> (secret police, thugs, chases, escapes, and so on)
> What little SF there was reappeared in much better form
> in his 'A for Andromeda' book and TV series.
>
> Apart from the core SF in 'The Black Cloud'
> it offers amusing carricature of the scientific
> and political establishment in the British fifties,
> which is by itself amusing,
>
> Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

> On 2021-11-27 13:14:23 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>
> > Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> [ … ]
>
> >>
> >>
> >> As others have mentioned, the time has come to get rid of a lot of
> >> books, as I don't want to saddle my daughter with a problem. I find
> >> that no matter how many I give away or dump there seem to be just as
> >> many left.
> >
> > You have no Emmaus nearby?
>
> Yes
>
> > If you offer them enough books they will come and collect.
>
> I can ask, but I think their interest in books in English will be limited.

I did buy some English books at an Emmaus, sometime ago.
The lady in charge did indeed complain about having to much.
Brits who give up on second houses in France
sometimes donate whole libraries.
She said that Emmaus has a 'take all' policy when clearing out houses.

> >> Disposing of my science-fiction collection, on the other
> >> hand, will be easy, consisting as it does of two books, Ossian's Ride
> >> and The Black Cloud: a single walk to the recycling bin will be
> >> sufficient.
> >
> > Yes, I know you don't like Fred Hoyle.
>
> You oversimplify!

Hoyle would be most disapointed. He was a controversialist
who enjoyed generating arguments, heated ones of possible.
In usenet terms, an academic troll.

> I don't like his pretence of knowing more biology than biologists.

It wasn't a pretence.
Hoyle was expert in the use of statistical mechanics,
at a time when most biologists were comletely ignorant
or quite naive about it.
He succeeded in getting them quite upset,

Jan

[lar3ryca]

On Saturday, November 27, 2021 at 6:24:37 AM UTC-6, Lewis wrote:
> The wrote The Mote in God's Eye and The Gripping Hand together, so
> there's that. Footfall and Lucifer's Hammer were pretty good too.

Those on my personal favourites list.

> I can't think of any Pournelle solo efforts that I've read. I mean, I
> know I read a few, but what they were I have no idea as they did not
> stick at all. I "met" him via voice chat several years ago (10? perhaps
> a bit less) during the period he was still appearing on the occasional
> twit.tv podcasts and found him to be both interesting and also pretty
> hard core jackass, which was pretty much what he was like on the
> podcasts too, only a little more reined in.

It's disappointing to find out that someone whose art you admire turn out to be a jackass or worse.
My wife and I attended a late-night TV talk show hosted by Peter Gzowski. There were, I seem to recall, four guests, but the only ones I remember (I think) were Gilda Radner and Harlan Ellison. After the show, Ellison stood by the exit, shaking hands with the audience. I shook his hand and said that I really enjoyed his work, especially his short stories. He replied, "Name one." I named four of my favourites, turned and walked away, and muttered "Jerk!" loud enough for him to hear.

Many years later I met and became friends with the son of another well-known S.F. author whose wife was a literary agent. I asked him if he had ever met Harlan Ellison. He said yes, he had, many times. I mentioned my encounter with him, and asked what he thought of the man.

I can't remember his exact reply, but it was along the line of "When you first meet him, he seems like an arrogant little prick trying to make up for his short stature by being a total asshole, but deep down inside, he IS an arrogant little prick trying to make up for his short stature by being a total asshole.

> Heinlein wrote many books that anyone who is interested in science
> fiction should definitely read. Yes, some of them are quite dated in
> various ways

I like a few of his early novels, but gave up on him later on.

> At a minimum:
> Stranger in a Strange Land
> The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress

<snip>

> and maybe The Cat Who Walks Through Walls

Those are the only ones I really enjoyed.

> I used to work in a fire hydrant factory. You couldn't park anywhere
> near the place.

From my favourite comedian.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sat, 27 Nov 2021 07:58:04 -0800 (PST), lar3ryca
<lar3...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, November 27, 2021 at 6:24:37 AM UTC-6, Lewis wrote:
>> The wrote The Mote in God's Eye and The Gripping Hand together, so
>> there's that. Footfall and Lucifer's Hammer were pretty good too.
>
>Those on my personal favourites list.
>
>> I can't think of any Pournelle solo efforts that I've read. I mean, I
>> know I read a few, but what they were I have no idea as they did not
>> stick at all. I "met" him via voice chat several years ago (10? perhaps
>> a bit less) during the period he was still appearing on the occasional
>> twit.tv podcasts and found him to be both interesting and also pretty
>> hard core jackass, which was pretty much what he was like on the
>> podcasts too, only a little more reined in.
>
>It's disappointing to find out that someone whose art you admire turn out to be a jackass or worse.
>My wife and I attended a late-night TV talk show hosted by Peter Gzowski. There were, I seem to recall, four guests, but the only ones I remember (I think) were Gilda Radner and Harlan Ellison. After the show, Ellison stood by the exit, shaking hands with the audience. I shook his hand and said that I really enjoyed his work, especially his short stories. He replied, "Name one." I named four of my favourites, turned and walked away, and muttered "Jerk!" loud enough for him to hear.
>

And Gilda Radner?

A college friend of mine worked as a page at
\

>Many years later I met and became friends with the son of another well-known S.F. author whose wife was a literary agent. I asked him if he had ever met Harlan Ellison. He said yes, he had, many times. I mentioned my encounter with him, and asked what he thought of the man.
>
>I can't remember his exact reply, but it was along the line of "When you first meet him, he seems like an arrogant little prick trying to make up for his short stature by being a total asshole, but deep down inside, he IS an arrogant little prick trying to make up for his short stature by being a total asshole.
>
>> Heinlein wrote many books that anyone who is interested in science
>> fiction should definitely read. Yes, some of them are quite dated in
>> various ways
>
>I like a few of his early novels, but gave up on him later on.
>
>> At a minimum:
>> Stranger in a Strange Land
>> The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress
><snip>
>> and maybe The Cat Who Walks Through Walls
>
>Those are the only ones I really enjoyed.
>
>> I used to work in a fire hydrant factory. You couldn't park anywhere
>> near the place.
>
>From my favourite comedian.

--

Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

[Tony Cooper]

On Sat, 27 Nov 2021 07:58:04 -0800 (PST), lar3ryca
<lar3...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, November 27, 2021 at 6:24:37 AM UTC-6, Lewis wrote:
>> The wrote The Mote in God's Eye and The Gripping Hand together, so
>> there's that. Footfall and Lucifer's Hammer were pretty good too.
>
>Those on my personal favourites list.
>
>> I can't think of any Pournelle solo efforts that I've read. I mean, I
>> know I read a few, but what they were I have no idea as they did not
>> stick at all. I "met" him via voice chat several years ago (10? perhaps
>> a bit less) during the period he was still appearing on the occasional
>> twit.tv podcasts and found him to be both interesting and also pretty
>> hard core jackass, which was pretty much what he was like on the
>> podcasts too, only a little more reined in.
>
>It's disappointing to find out that someone whose art you admire turn out to be a jackass or worse.
>My wife and I attended a late-night TV talk show hosted by Peter Gzowski. There were, I seem to recall, four guests, but the only ones I remember (I think) were Gilda Radner and Harlan Ellison. After the show, Ellison stood by the exit, shaking hands with the audience. I shook his hand and said that I really enjoyed his work, especially his short stories. He replied, "Name one." I named four of my favourites, turned and walked away, and muttered "Jerk!" loud enough for him to hear.
>

A college friend of mine worked as a Page at NBC in the early 1960s
when Johnny Carson was the host of the "Tonight Show".

He had entertaining tales about some of the famous personalities when
they were off screen. Some were pricks when not on camera, and some
were even more entertaining. Jonathan Winters was the favorite of all
the Pages because he would hang around and do routines for the tour
groups. Joey Bishop was one of the pricks.


BTW...your posts are usually interesting, but would be much more
readable if you would adopt the 72-character line width convention.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Saturday, November 27, 2021 at 8:58:07 AM UTC-7, lar3...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, November 27, 2021 at 6:24:37 AM UTC-6, Lewis wrote:

...

> It's disappointing to find out that someone whose art you admire turn out to be a jackass or worse.
> My wife and I attended a late-night TV talk show hosted by Peter Gzowski. There were, I seem to recall, four guests, but the only ones I remember (I think) were Gilda Radner and Harlan Ellison. After the show, Ellison stood by the exit, shaking hands with the audience. I shook his hand and said that I really enjoyed his work, especially his short stories. He replied, "Name one." I named four of my favourites, turned and walked away, and muttered "Jerk!" loud enough for him to hear.

...

I hope his being a jerk didn't come as a surprise.

> > Heinlein wrote many books that anyone who is interested in science
> > fiction should definitely read. Yes, some of them are quite dated in
> > various ways

> I like a few of his early novels, but gave up on him later on.

> > At a minimum:
> > Stranger in a Strange Land
> > The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress
> <snip>
> > and maybe The Cat Who Walks Through Walls

> Those are the only ones I really enjoyed.

...

/The Cat Who Walks Through Walls/? *shudder*

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter T. Daniels]

One difference is that Vonnegut can _write_.

I did read one of his that had a similar problem -- one I hadn't heard
of and found as a used paperback. It may have been *God Bless You,
Mr. Rosewater* (1965), which is surprising because it comes between
*Cat's Cradle* and *Slaughterhouse Five*.

During his last years, he did a series of short pieces on WNYC, reporting
from Heaven in the voice of various celebrities. It was a little indulgent
of them to broadcast all of them.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, November 26, 2021 at 7:03:19 PM UTC-5, Peter Moylan wrote:

> I am very much an SF fan, but these days I find myself sticking to
> re-reading my existing collection. When I go to a bookshop I find that
> almost all the books in the SF section are fantasy, a genre that does
> not appeal to me. When I do find something that is genuine science
> fiction, it disappoints more often than not. There appears to be a new
> "new wave" happening, with new writers trying to appeal to book critics
> rather than readers.

amazon just alerted me (via "you might also like") that there's a new
collection of Tolkien's last Middle-Earth stories, none of them completed,
apparently, edited by someone other than Christopher Tolkien. (The only
Tolkien I'd ordered from them was *Beowulf*, which somehow I'd missed
in hardcover at B&N, and when the paperback came out they no longer
stocked the hardcover.) (It would be nice but otiose to get the recent
collections of the shorter books, because they're bound uniformly with
the others.)

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, November 26, 2021 at 9:58:12 PM UTC-5, Peter Moylan wrote:

> The science is shonky,
> though.

An Ozzism?

Yes! NZ also.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Someone more knowledgeable (Jan? Jerry? Peter Moylan?) will doubtlessly
correct me if I'm making a silly mistake somewhere, but I think the
light speed barrier is not as unsurmountable as it's usually thought to
be. Yes, if we travel at the speed of light, $v = c$, then we have
infinite mass and that's impossible. However, it goes down quite
steeply as $v$ decreases. Suppose that we only want to get to 80% of
$c$, i.e. $v/c = 0.8$. Then we get $1/\sqrt{1 - c^2/v^2} = 1.67$, i.e.
the mass is increased by less than 70%, and at that speed we could
reach Alpha Centauri in about seven years. Solving the "normal
propulsion" problem is another matter, of course.

[spains...@gmail.com]

That depends on light. We are human and we have our five sentences,
(copyright WS), but suppose there are other sentences we don't yet have?

I used to operate a compost bin. When we took the lid off, the creatures
inside seemed to be surprised at the huge Universe that they had never
experienced or been able to imagine.

We are in that same dark bin.

[lar3ryca]

On Saturday, November 27, 2021 at 10:16:58 AM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:

> <lar3...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >It's disappointing to find out that someone whose art you admire turn out to be a jackass or worse.
> >My wife and I attended a late-night TV talk show hosted by Peter Gzowski. There were, I seem to recall, four guests, but the only ones I remember (I think) were Gilda Radner and Harlan Ellison. After the show, Ellison stood by the exit, shaking hands with the audience. I shook his hand and said that I really enjoyed his work, especially his short stories. He replied, "Name one." I named four of my favourites, turned and walked away, and muttered "Jerk!" loud enough for him to hear.

> A college friend of mine worked as a Page at NBC in the early 1960s
> when Johnny Carson was the host of the "Tonight Show".
> He had entertaining tales about some of the famous personalities when
> they were off screen. Some were pricks when not on camera, and some
> were even more entertaining. Jonathan Winters was the favorite of all
> the Pages because he would hang around and do routines for the tour
> groups. Joey Bishop was one of the pricks.

I haven't met many 'celebrities', but I can tell you that Beau Bridges
is a REAL nice guy.

> BTW...your posts are usually interesting, but would be much more
> readable if you would adopt the 72-character line width convention.

I'll try. I only access the group via the web. I could try using email.
Is there, by any chance, a newsreader for Linux and if so, is it usable
for this group, or in general?

This was formatted in Geany.

[lar3ryca]

On Saturday, November 27, 2021 at 10:28:29 AM UTC-6, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Saturday, November 27, 2021 at 8:58:07 AM UTC-7, lar3...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 27, 2021 at 6:24:37 AM UTC-6, Lewis wrote:
> ...
> > It's disappointing to find out that someone whose art you admire turn out to be a jackass or worse.
> > My wife and I attended a late-night TV talk show hosted by Peter Gzowski. There were, I seem to recall, four guests, but the only ones I remember (I think) were Gilda Radner and Harlan Ellison. After the show, Ellison stood by the exit, shaking hands with the audience. I shook his hand and said that I really enjoyed his work, especially his short stories. He replied, "Name one." I named four of my favourites, turned and walked away, and muttered "Jerk!" loud enough for him to hear.
> ...
> I hope his being a jerk didn't come as a surprise.

Well, I knew he was opinionated, but other than that, I knew very little
about him. I certainly did not expect him to be rude.

> > > Heinlein wrote many books that anyone who is interested in science
> > > fiction should definitely read. Yes, some of them are quite dated in
> > > various ways
> > I like a few of his early novels, but gave up on him later on.
> > > At a minimum:
> > > Stranger in a Strange Land
> > > The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress
> > <snip>
> > > and maybe The Cat Who Walks Through Walls
> > Those are the only ones I really enjoyed.
> ...
> /The Cat Who Walks Through Walls/? *shudder*

Ahh.. you are right. I am at a bit of a loss as to why I said that.
I may have been thinking of Frederik Pohl's 'The Coming of the Quantum
Cats'.

[Richard Heathfield]

On 27/11/2021 18:52, lar3ryca wrote:

<snip>

> Is there, by any chance, a newsreader for Linux

Thunderbird

> and if so, is it usable
> for this group, or in general?

Yes. The Eternal September newsfeed is free (registration required, but
hey, it's free).

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[J. J. Lodder]

Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

> BTW...your posts are usually interesting, but would be much more
> readable if you would adopt the 72-character line width convention.

Yes. A workaround:
pretend to reply, and wrap the reply to the standard format.
Then read the non-reply instead of the original,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Perhaps, but the energy requirements are huge.
(remember that c^2 ~= 10^17 joule/kg)
So impossible unless you can burn anti-matter as fuel,
and at high efficiency too.
A Bussard ramjet won't do it,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

I know a cat who knows all about 'The Door into Summer',

Jan

[lar3ryca]

For now, I'll just use word wrap on my text editor and copy/paste to
the reply.

[charles]

In article <1pjbn9s.vb...@de-ster.xs4all.nl>, J. J. Lodder

Ah, that 's the name of that story.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Lewis]

You have to consider some more factors. First, if you are sending people
you are limited in the acceleration you can achieve. Second, of course,
is the relativistic effects of traveling at that speed. Third is how do
you generate 0.8c worth of speed and how do you slow down? The slowing
down alone means you are doubling the amount of travel time right there,
and the time it will take to accelerate down to, say orbital velocity,
will increase the time even more, All that still completely ignores the
fact that there is no known or even realistically theoretical way to
generate that amount of acceleration.

As I said, the math does not work with our current level of knowledge,
and it will take a breakthrough at least on the level of e=mc^2 or F=ma
(hey, those are the same!) before that could even ebgin to change.


--
SHERRI DOES NOT "GOT BACK" Bart chalkboard Ep. AABF07

[Lewis]

In message <slrnsq4btr....@m1mini.local> Lewis <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
> There are also various podcast that cover scifi books. Two that I listen
> to are the yearly episode on The Incomparable
> <https://www.theincomparable.com/theincomparable/> where they cover the
> Nebula nominees.

Oops. The other is Sword and Laser, <http://swordandlaser.com> which
features a fixed duo of hosts, Veronica Belmont and Tom Merritt.

--
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."
Winston Churchill

[Peter Moylan]

Also Ankh-Morporkian, although with a different meaning.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Mack A. Damia]

The nearest star, Alpha Centauri, is 4.37 light-years away, which
equals to 25 trillion miles. Even NASA's Voyager 1 space probe – which
became the first spacecraft to exploit interstellar space back in 2012
– would take 70,000 years to get there going 10-miles-per-second.

Voyager 1 spacecraft is currently over 14.1 billion miles from Earth.
It's moving at a speed of approximately 38,000 miles per hour and not
long ago passed through our solar system's boundary with interstellar
space.

Voyager 1 will leave the solar system aiming toward the constellation
Ophiuchus. In the year 40,272 AD (more than 38,200 years from now),
Voyager 1 will come within 1.7 light years (9.4 trillion miles) of an
obscure star in the constellation Ursa Minor (the Little Bear or
Little Dipper) called AC+79 3888.

Eventually, the Voyagers will pass other stars. The Voyagers are
destined—perhaps eternally—to wander the Milky Way.

[Mack A. Damia]

No use in kicking around the laws of physics as they are known. The
answer if there is one will be found elsewhere. And possibly not.

[Snidely]

Remember when lar3ryca bragged outrageously? That was Saturday:

None of those are his early work.

A lot of his early work was juvenile fiction, and maybe what would be
called "Young Adult" these days, like /Rocket Ship Galileo/ and /Farmer
In The Sky/ or /Door Into Summer/. His most serious early SF grew out
of short stories, like /Methuselah's Children/.


[a 1940 short story predicted the Manhattan Project and MAD]

His politics are a mixed bag: after flirting with communism, he turned
libertarian, but he was also into racial equality and anti-segregation,
and to an extent a feminist, but not enough of one to avoid angering
the feminist movement.

/dps

--
I have always been glad we weren't killed that night. I do not know
any particular reason, but I have always been glad.
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain

[Jerry Friedman]

The classic method is to accelerate at 1 g, turn around at the midpoint,
and decelerate at 1 g. According to this, getting to Proxima Centauri that
way would take 5.9 years Earth time and 3.5 years ship time.

https://www.quora.com/How-long-would-it-take-to-reach-the-closest-exoplanet-bearing-star-given-1G-acceleration-from-the-ships-perspective-and-from-an-earthbound-perspective-and-what-would-be-the-ships-top-speed

> All that still completely ignores the
> fact that there is no known or even realistically theoretical way to
> generate that amount of acceleration.

That's the real problem. That answer goes on to discuss the energy requirements
if we had a way to transport large amounts of antimatter (as Jan mentioned),
which we don't.

There's also a problem about hitting tiny bits of space debris when you're
going 94% of the speed of light.

> As I said, the math does not work with our current level of knowledge,
> and it will take a breakthrough at least on the level of e=mc^2 or F=ma
> (hey, those are the same!) before that could even ebgin to change.

The math works. Technology is the problem.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Mack A. Damia]

Are there any many-made objects that can travel the speed of light?
Currently they would disintegrate. Do you think that humans can
travel the speed of light if we had the means? I don't. Our
physiological systems couldn't handle it.

If you go to a state that still executes the convicted by
electrocution, you could always "ride the lightning."

[Jerry Friedman]

There's no reason that they would disintegrate, as long as they weren't
hitting anything.

However, we don't have the capability to accelerate anything bigger than a
uranium nucleus to anywhere near the speed of light. Nothing at all can be
accelerated to the exact speed of light (the speed in vacuum, that is, c).

> Do you think that humans can
> travel the speed of light if we had the means? I don't. Our
> physiological systems couldn't handle it.

...

The whole point of relativity--Einstein's or Galileo's--is that the laws of physics
are the same in any non-accelerated reference frame. Just as you can't tell
how fast you're going in an airplane, you can't tell in a rocket, and you wouldn't
be able to tell in a hypothetical relativistic spaceship. In the hypothetical trip
described above, you would feel just as if you were on Earth (except when you
turn around and start decelerating, when you'd presumably be weightless like
the astronauts in orbit), as long as the ship didn't hit anything.

--
Jerry Friedman

[lar3ryca]

On Saturday, November 27, 2021 at 5:23:32 PM UTC-6, Snidely wrote:
> Remember when lar3ryca bragged outrageously? That was Saturday:
> > On Saturday, November 27, 2021 at 6:24:37 AM UTC-6, Lewis wrote:
>
> >> Heinlein wrote many books that anyone who is interested in science
> >> fiction should definitely read. Yes, some of them are quite dated in
> >> various ways
> >
> > I like a few of his early novels, but gave up on him later on.
> >
> >> At a minimum:
> >> Stranger in a Strange Land
> >> The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress
> > <snip>
> >> and maybe The Cat Who Walks Through Walls
> > Those are the only ones I really enjoyed.
> None of those are his early work.

Hmm... just looked them up. early sixties. They look pretty early to me
from my age. It was /Friday/ that put me off him. I may have sampled a
few after that, but never read anything else of his.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sat, 27 Nov 2021 16:19:19 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman

I beg to differ as we have never had anything travel at the speed of
light except light itself, so we have no idea what its effect would be
on man-made materials or humans for that matter.

>However, we don't have the capability to accelerate anything bigger than a
>uranium nucleus to anywhere near the speed of light. Nothing at all can be
>accelerated to the exact speed of light (the speed in vacuum, that is, c).
>
>> Do you think that humans can
>> travel the speed of light if we had the means? I don't. Our
>> physiological systems couldn't handle it.
>...
>The whole point of relativity--Einstein's or Galileo's--is that the laws of physics
>are the same in any non-accelerated reference frame. Just as you can't tell
>how fast you're going in an airplane, you can't tell in a rocket, and you wouldn't
>be able to tell in a hypothetical relativistic spaceship. In the hypothetical trip
>described above, you would feel just as if you were on Earth (except when you
>turn around and start decelerating, when you'd presumably be weightless like
>the astronauts in orbit), as long as the ship didn't hit anything.

But there is no evidence of any solid object traveling at the speed of
light as far as I know. What would be the mechanism of propulsion?
Plenty of unknown factors; methinks it is pure theoretical fantasy.

[Rich Ulrich]

On Sat, 27 Nov 2021 21:38:51 +0100, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
Lodder) wrote:

I liked the Bussard ramjet idea of a cruise around the galaxy,
returning to earth in a time-compressed lifetime (or a few).

On the other hands, who knows what prospects will open
up when we learn to manipulate the "dark matter" that
accounts for most of the mass of the universe? - You know,
I don't remember my SF authors using dark matter.


--
Rich Ulrich

[Rich Ulrich]

On Sat, 27 Nov 2021 15:23:23 -0800, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Remember when lar3ryca bragged outrageously? That was Saturday:
>> On Saturday, November 27, 2021 at 6:24:37 AM UTC-6, Lewis wrote:
>
>>> Heinlein wrote many books that anyone who is interested in science
>>> fiction should definitely read. Yes, some of them are quite dated in
>>> various ways
>>
>> I like a few of his early novels, but gave up on him later on.
>>
>>> At a minimum:
>>> Stranger in a Strange Land
>>> The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress
>> <snip>
>>> and maybe The Cat Who Walks Through Walls
>>
>> Those are the only ones I really enjoyed.
>>
>
>None of those are his early work.
>
>A lot of his early work was juvenile fiction, and maybe what would be
>called "Young Adult" these days, like /Rocket Ship Galileo/ and /Farmer
>In The Sky/ or /Door Into Summer/. His most serious early SF grew out
>of short stories, like /Methuselah's Children/.
>

I recommended "any Heinlein" but I do confess that one
of his later books gave me my first, deep appreciation for
"self-indulgent" as an adjective.

His /The Star Beast/ is juvenile fiction which is still on my shelf,
alongside /Job/ and /Glory Road/.

>
>[a 1940 short story predicted the Manhattan Project and MAD]
>
>His politics are a mixed bag: after flirting with communism, he turned
>libertarian, but he was also into racial equality and anti-segregation,
>and to an extent a feminist, but not enough of one to avoid angering
>the feminist movement.

There's a lot of sex in some of his last novels. That upsets some
feminists (among others). And Lazarth Long ended up violating
not only the old taboo on same-sex sex, but also the taboo on incest.

--
Rich Ulrich

[J. J. Lodder]

Lewis <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

> In message <j0f98l...@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden:

Maintaining 1g of acceleration (in the ship's instantaneous rest frame)
will do it in a reasonable time.

> Second, of course, is the relativistic effects of traveling at that speed.

There are none, for the travellers. They live in their own proper time.

> Third is how do you generate 0.8c worth of speed and how do you slow down?

Same way as you speed up.

> The slowing down alone means you are doubling the amount of travel time
> right there, and the time it will take to accelerate down to, say orbital
> velocity, will increase the time even more, All that still completely
> ignores the fact that there is no known or even realistically theoretical
> way to generate that amount of acceleration.

Photon drive at sufficient power levels.
(but remember that c = 300 MW/Newton, in slightly unconventional units)

> As I said, the math does not work with our current level of knowledge,
> and it will take a breakthrough at least on the level of e=mc^2 or F=ma
> (hey, those are the same!) before that could even ebgin to change.

"Interstellar distances are god's quarantine regulations" (John Brunner)

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

There is a way to make Google do it,
somewhere in the prefs,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Yes, but "why aren't they here?" (Fermi)

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Stefan Ram <r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

> occam <nob...@nowhere.nix> writes:
> >If you were asked to add one missing book title, which would it be? And
> >which title would you eliminate from the list, to keep the list to 29 long?
>
> As a child, I read many Science Fiction paperbacks in German
> (many were translations), but I can hardly remember any title
> or content. Some were collections of short stories.
>
> A few years ago, I became aware that I have not read any SF
> stories for decades, and tried to find recommendations. One
> list contained: Enders Game, The Forever War, and Ringworld
> (part 1) (and some other titles which I already knew or have
> read).
>
> So, I read those three (in English). The only one the lecture
> of which I really enjoyed was Ringworld (part 1), and the one
> I least enjoyed was The Forever War. Then, I read part 2 and 3
> of the Ringword trilogy, but they really were not as good as
> part 1!
>
> It seems I do not judge such books by their "message" but just
> by the emotions they evoke in me while I read them. Not exactly
> an intellectual attitude! It felt good to be in the Ringworld,
> and while part 2 and 3 were not written as good as part 1, when
> I read them, I still was in the Ringworld, so it still felt good!
>
> The description of the near-fight and the dialog between Louis
> and "Speaker-To-Animals" at the beginning of Part 1 alone is
> delightful!

By contrast, the Germans have given the world
the biggest and the worst SF cycle ever.
Perry Rhodan stands at 3000+ volumes, and counting.

But there are fanatical fans,
so some people must like it,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Sure would be nice, but Bussard ramjets won't do it.
The basic reason is that fusion yields hardly any energy,
(a mere 25 MeV out of 4 GeV for He4)

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

The youger Heinlein also created some of the ultimate
time travel paradox stories.
What more can you do with it after "'-All you Zombies-'" ?

Jan

--
(and for Quinn, it has gender change too)

[J. J. Lodder]

Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, November 27, 2021 at 3:04:49 PM UTC-7, Lewis wrote:

> > In message <j0f98l...@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden:

Any SF author worth his salt can discover an anti-matter asteroid.

> There's also a problem about hitting tiny bits of space debris when you're
> going 94% of the speed of light.

Worse, you'll hit interstelar gas, that is protons.
Since you are near relativistic, they are near relativistic wrt you.
So that means they will hit you with energies of order one GeV.
You are going to need lots of quite heavy shielding,
so there are more 'practicalities',

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Stefan Ram <r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

> r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
> >The description of the near-fight and the dialog between Louis
> >and "Speaker-To-Animals" at the beginning of Part 1 alone is
> >delightful!
>

> It now seems to me that one part of the credibility of the
> Ringworld has to do with how people at the same time
> cooperate to to achieve their goals and fight each other at
> the same time, where they have conflicting interests, and
> are therefore constantly on guard against each other.

One of the things Ringworld tells you
is how absolutely huge the Solar system already is,
with respect to the Earth,

Jan

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On 27 Nov 2021 22:53:42 GMT
r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote:

[]

> It seems I do not judge such books by their "message" but just
> by the emotions they evoke in me while I read them. Not exactly
> an intellectual attitude! It felt good to be in the Ringworld,
> and while part 2 and 3 were not written as good as part 1, when

not written as well as

> I read them, I still was in the Ringworld, so it still felt good!

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

Dark Matter can't be seen; it's no good. It's too big and too small at
the same time!

ISTM that it'll turn out to be a Dreadful Mistake like phlogiston. Or
maybe that's just wishful thinking.

[J. J. Lodder]

There is Dark Matter and Dark Energy. (aka the energy of the vacuum)
Dark Energy may well be your Dreadful Mistake.

Dark Matter otoh must be there.
Those galaxies, including our own, just rotate to fast.
Either there is invisible mass for extra pull,
or general relativity is dreadfully wrong,
(which seems far less likely)

Jan

[Snidely]

Mack A. Damia asserted that:

It isn't even a theoretical possibility, as you can never reach the
speed of light unless you're massless.

/dps

--
Who, me? And what lacuna?

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Den 27-11-2021 kl. 13:03 skrev Lewis:
> In message <+Y6SckPc...@wolff.co.uk> Paul Wolff <boun...@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Fri, 26 Nov 2021, at 21:18:11, Anders D. Nygaard posted:
>>> Den 25-11-2021 kl. 12:00 skrev occam:
>>>> I hold Wired magazine in high regard, hence the reason why I am
>>>> circulating their list of "29 of the Best Science Fiction Books Everyone
>>>> Should Read". Plus I know that there are a few S.F. readers in this group.
>>>> <https://www.wired.co.uk/article/best-sci-fi-books>

>>>> If you were asked to add one missing book title, which would it be?
>>>> And
>>>> which title would you eliminate from the list, to keep the list to 29 long?
>>>

>>> Much of the list is far too new for me to know, but I will add my
>>> surprise that nothing by Larry Niven ("Ringworld", anyone?) has made
>>> the list.
>>>
>> Yes indeed - I did appreciate at least the /semblance/ of science in
>> Niven's work, and then his imaginative use of it. It was good enough to
>> fool me, anyway. Was Niven a scientist?
>
> No, but he cared very much about having everything be as accurate as
> possible with very few exceptions.
>
> The mechanics of Ringworld are perfect, for example, bu the ring itself
> has to be made of something with a tensile strength on par with the
> Nuclear Force, so unlikely to be possible. But everything else is very
> well thought out and is honed with greater detail in the later books.

He was caught out on other occasions too. One of his short stories
("Neutron star", I believe) concerns tidal forces when going close to
a degenerate mass, and the hero avoids being squashed to death by
remaining at the center of the space ship. But, as Niven later said
(from memory) "alas and dammit - the spaceship will emerge spinning".

/Anders, Denmark

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Den 26-11-2021 kl. 21:18 skrev Anders D. Nygaard:
> Den 25-11-2021 kl. 12:00 skrev occam:
>>
>> I hold Wired magazine in high regard, hence the reason why I am
>> circulating their list of "29 of the Best Science Fiction Books Everyone
>> Should Read". Plus I know that there are a few S.F. readers in this
>> group.
>>
>> <https://www.wired.co.uk/article/best-sci-fi-books>
>>
>> If you were asked to add one missing book title, which would it be? And
>> which title would you eliminate from the list, to keep the list to 29
>> long?
>
> Much of the list is far too new for me to know, but I will add my
> surprise that nothing by Larry Niven ("Ringworld", anyone?) has made
> the list.

I'd also suggest "Ender's game" - if that is considered SF?

/Anders, Denmark

[Lewis]

The reason for the idea of dark matter is that the masses of the
galaxies far exceeds their visible mass. We know this is true, and it's
been verified over and over. The name "dark matter" is really a
catch-all for "that thing we have no idea where it is or how it works
that gives the universe about 9 times more mass than it should have".

--
Girl wins her man after showing off her legs and not talking
(The Little Mermaid)

[Lewis]

And how do you achieve 1g constant acceleration for years?

>> Second, of course, is the relativistic effects of traveling at that speed.

> There are none, for the travellers. They live in their own proper time.

>> Third is how do you generate 0.8c worth of speed and how do you slow down?

> Same way as you speed up.

And same problem, only doubled.

>> The slowing down alone means you are doubling the amount of travel time
>> right there, and the time it will take to accelerate down to, say orbital
>> velocity, will increase the time even more, All that still completely
>> ignores the fact that there is no known or even realistically theoretical
>> way to generate that amount of acceleration.

> Photon drive at sufficient power levels.

What powers them? How do you carry the fuel? and the fuel adds mass
which means MORE FUEL.

> (but remember that c = 300 MW/Newton, in slightly unconventional units)

>> As I said, the math does not work with our current level of knowledge,
>> and it will take a breakthrough at least on the level of e=mc^2 or F=ma
>> (hey, those are the same!) before that could even ebgin to change.

> "Interstellar distances are god's quarantine regulations" (John Brunner)

So it seems. There's nothing that we know of right now, even at the
purely theoretical level, that will solve this problem.

--
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so, Brain. But even if we found a tuxedo to fit a blowfish,
who would marry it?"

[Lewis]

In message <mn.db9b7e5b25ba5bde.127094@snitoo> Snidely <snide...@gmail.com> wrote:
> His politics are a mixed bag: after flirting with communism, he turned
> libertarian,

Sort of, not nearly as libertarian as he is painted and not nearly as
Libertarian as, say, Jerry Pournelle, who may still be the dim-witted
movement's poster child.

> but he was also into racial equality and anti-segregation,

People always forget that in Starship Troopers the characters were a
motley crew of earthlings form all over the planet, and a=our hero (well,
protagonist is more accurate) was not a white dude, his actual first
name is Juan.

> and to an extent a feminist, but not enough of one to avoid angering
> the feminist movement.

For the time he was born and lived, he was about as feminist a man as
there was. Certainly far more so that people I met his same age.

(I believe he was born around 1905 or so, a bit more than 20 years
before my father who at least thought he was a feminist and in many of
the important ways was. I never heard him claim, for example, that women
shouldn't be doctors or fighter pilots or President, which was pretty
good for the 1970s.)

--
'How come you know all that stuff?' 'I ain't just a pretty face.'
'You aren't even a pretty face, Gaspode.'

[Lewis]

In message <8166fc40-50cd-4d5e...@googlegroups.com> lar3ryca <lar3...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, November 27, 2021 at 5:23:32 PM UTC-6, Snidely wrote:
>> Remember when lar3ryca bragged outrageously? That was Saturday:
>> > On Saturday, November 27, 2021 at 6:24:37 AM UTC-6, Lewis wrote:
>>
>> >> Heinlein wrote many books that anyone who is interested in science
>> >> fiction should definitely read. Yes, some of them are quite dated in
>> >> various ways
>> >
>> > I like a few of his early novels, but gave up on him later on.
>> >
>> >> At a minimum:
>> >> Stranger in a Strange Land
>> >> The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress
>> > <snip>
>> >> and maybe The Cat Who Walks Through Walls
>> > Those are the only ones I really enjoyed.
>> None of those are his early work.

> Hmm... just looked them up. early sixties. They look pretty early to me
> from my age. It was /Friday/ that put me off him. I may have sampled a
> few after that, but never read anything else of his.

He started writing in the 30s or early 40s. Mostly he wrote short
stories for Astounding Science Fiction, but he also was popular enough
that he appeared in The Saturday Evening Post in the 40s and had some
novels then as well. Red Planet and Rocket Ship to Mars, I think I
remember, not 100% sure on the title of the second one. Definitely in
the genre that would be called YA today.

Starship Troopers in ... 1960? is considered either the end of his
first period of writing, or the beginning of his second. Or both.

--
'You know what the greatest tragedy is in the whole world?' said
Ginger, not paying him the least attention. 'It's all the people
who never find out what it is they really want to do or what it
is they're really good at. It's all the sons who become
blacksmiths because their fathers were blacksmiths. It's all the
people who could be really fantastic flute players who grow old
and die without ever seeing a musical instrument, so they become
bad ploughmen instead. It's all the people with talents who never
even find out. Maybe they are never born in a time when it is
possible to find out.'