Vonnegut poem
Anno Siegel
ha...@lds.loral.com writes:
> "Tiger gotta hunt. Bird gotta fly.
> Man gotta sit and wonder why, why, why.
> Tiger gotta sleep. Bird gotta land.
> Man gotta tell himself he understand."
>
> Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
I like it. It even translates to German. But I'd like to have a few opinions
of native speakers of English about this: The little poem is not standard
English, or rather it employs a less common standard of English (hi Roger).
How would you describe the language used? Is it childrens talk? Slang?
If so, what sort of slang? Or does it even constitute a type of language
in its own right? You can see I'm quite at loss here.
Thanks for any comments.
Anno
Don Porges
It strikes me as a native English speaker's impression of some pidgin
English, or possibly Jamaican dialect.
It also sounds a lot like this well-known song from
*Showboat*, lyrics by Oscar Hammerstein in the 1920's:
Fish gotta swim, birds gotta fly
I gotta love one man till I die
Can't help, can't help loving that man.
-- except that since "fish" is its own plural, this one is
almost standard, except for dropping some words so it will
scan. Note that this song is presented in *Showboat* as being
a traditional American black song (it isn't).
--
-- Don Porges
por...@inmet.camb.inmet.com
..uunet!inmet!porges
Roger Lustig
>In article <25v1q9$o...@mailgzrz.TU-Berlin.DE> anno...@zrz.tu-berlin.de (Anno Siegel) writes:
>>In article <930826...@are107.lds.loral.com> (and many more)
>>ha...@lds.loral.com writes:
>>> "Tiger gotta hunt. Bird gotta fly.
>>> Man gotta sit and wonder why, why, why.
>>> Tiger gotta sleep. Bird gotta land.
>>> Man gotta tell himself he understand."
>>> Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
>>I like it. It even translates to German. But I'd like to have a few opinions
>>of native speakers of English about this: The little poem is not standard
>>English, or rather it employs a less common standard of English (hi Roger).
>>How would you describe the language used? Is it childrens talk? Slang?
>>If so, what sort of slang? Or does it even constitute a type of language
>>in its own right? You can see I'm quite at loss here.
>It strikes me as a native English speaker's impression of some pidgin
>English, or possibly Jamaican dialect.
You know, the source explains this very nicely. _Cat's Cradle_ takes
place on a Caribbean island whose guru, Bokonon, puts his wisdom, not
into koans but into calypsos.
It is indeed an imitation of Caribbean English, which is certainly not
a pidgin. In some southern US dialects/accents, as well as some from
the islands, it is colloquial usage to drop the (apostrophe'd)
auxiliary verb.
>It also sounds a lot like this well-known song from
>*Showboat*, lyrics by Oscar Hammerstein in the 1920's:
>Fish gotta swim, birds gotta fly
>I gotta love one man till I die
>Can't help, can't help loving that man.
>-- except that since "fish" is its own plural, this one is
>almost standard, except for dropping some words so it will
>scan. Note that this song is presented in *Showboat* as being
>a traditional American black song (it isn't).
And, of course, Bokonon (who is a self-admitted fraud, like all the
best gurus) was referring to this piece of Americana.
Roger
Anno Siegel
>In article <CCMq3...@inmet.camb.inmet.com> por...@beretta.camb.inmet.com (Don Porges) writes:
>>In article <25v1q9$o...@mailgzrz.TU-Berlin.DE> anno...@zrz.tu-berlin.de (Anno Siegel) writes:
>>>In article <930826...@are107.lds.loral.com> (and many more)
>>>ha...@lds.loral.com writes:
>>>> "Tiger gotta hunt. Bird gotta fly.
>>>> Man gotta sit and wonder why, why, why.
>>>> Tiger gotta sleep. Bird gotta land.
>>>> Man gotta tell himself he understand."
>>>> Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
[My question: what type of language is this]
>>It strikes me as a native English speaker's impression of some pidgin
>>English, or possibly Jamaican dialect.
>You know, the source explains this very nicely. _Cat's Cradle_ takes
>place on a Caribbean island whose guru, Bokonon, puts his wisdom, not
>into koans but into calypsos.
Yes, that's it. It's a calypso. It fits to just about any old
calypso tune, "Island in the Sun" and "Coconut Woman" among them.
I must admit to having read Cat's Cradle, and it didn't ring a bell.
Well, that was about a dozen years ago. I can't even seem to remember
the Caribbean background. I'll see if I still have the book around.
>It is indeed an imitation of Caribbean English, which is certainly not
>a pidgin. In some southern US dialects/accents, as well as some from
>the islands, it is colloquial usage to drop the (apostrophe'd)
>auxiliary verb.
According to Webster, pidgin is "a simplified speech used for
communication between people with different languages" which indeed
does not apply to the Caribbean dialect (or does it?). Unfortunately
Webster is silent as to the etymology of "pidgin". I seem to recall
it derives from pigeon. While this may be true, I don't understand it
at all.
>>It also sounds a lot like this well-known song from
>>*Showboat*, lyrics by Oscar Hammerstein in the 1920's:
>>Fish gotta swim, birds gotta fly
>>I gotta love one man till I die
>>Can't help, can't help loving that man.
Well, I have never heard that one.
>>-- except that since "fish" is its own plural, this one is
>>almost standard, except for dropping some words so it will
>>scan. Note that this song is presented in *Showboat* as being
>>a traditional American black song (it isn't).
>And, of course, Bokonon (who is a self-admitted fraud, like all the
>best gurus) was referring to this piece of Americana.
>Roger
Thanks for the comments.
Anno "No damn cat, no damn cradle"
Richard N Kitchen
In a previous article, anno...@zrz.tu-berlin.de (Anno Siegel) says:
>Webster is silent as to the etymology of "pidgin". I seem to recall
>it derives from pigeon. While this may be true, I don't understand it
>at all.
From my reading, I believe it derives from the pidgin form used in the
China Trade. It is the pidgin word for "business".
--
Rick Kitchen da...@cleveland.freenet.edu
"I do insurance fraud, photos, 33 and 1/3s. Two things I don't do are
compact disks and murder. However, I'd like to comfort you, anywhere
and anytime you'd like." --Dave Brodsky, "Black Tie Affair"
Drew Lawson
>ha...@lds.loral.com writes:
>
>> "Tiger gotta hunt. Bird gotta fly.
>> Man gotta sit and wonder why, why, why.
>> Tiger gotta sleep. Bird gotta land.
>> Man gotta tell himself he understand."
>>
>> Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
>
>I like it. It even translates to German. But I'd like to have a few opinions
>of native speakers of English about this: The little poem is not standard
>English, or rather it employs a less common standard of English (hi Roger).
I can't answer your questions.
I just wanted to offer my opinion that almost no poetry (or poetry of
value) is written in Standard English.
>How would you describe the language used? Is it childrens talk? Slang?
>If so, what sort of slang? Or does it even constitute a type of language
>in its own right? You can see I'm quite at loss here.
>
>Thanks for any comments.
>
>Anno
--
Drew Lawson | Your future is managed / and your freedom's a joke
law...@acuson.com | You don't know the difference / as you put on the yoke
Anno Siegel
>
>In article <25v1q9$o...@mailgzrz.TU-Berlin.DE>
> anno...@zrz.tu-berlin.de (Anno Siegel) writes:
>>In article <930826...@are107.lds.loral.com> (and many more) ha...@lds.loral.com writes:
>>> "Tiger gotta hunt. Bird gotta fly.
>>> Man gotta sit and wonder why, why, why.
>>> Tiger gotta sleep. Bird gotta land.
>>> Man gotta tell himself he understand."
>>>
>>> Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
>>I like it. It even translates to German. But I'd like to have a few opinions
>>of native speakers of English about this: The little poem is not standard
>>English, or rather it employs a less common standard of English (hi Roger).
>I can't answer your questions.
>I just wanted to offer my opinion that almost no poetry (or poetry of
>value) is written in Standard English.
You are probably right, though it may be the mark of good craftsmanship
to make everyday language rhyme and scan without violating or even
stressing its standards. I think some of the most renowned poets have,
from time to time, done just that.
In fact, in the little poem above Vonnegut seems to strive for, well,
not standard written English but for a flow of language that would
be natural for a Caribbean. It's not for me to say if he succeeded.
Anno
Raphael Mankin
>
>According to Webster, pidgin is "a simplified speech used for
>communication between people with different languages" which indeed
>does not apply to the Caribbean dialect (or does it?). Unfortunately
>Webster is silent as to the etymology of "pidgin". I seem to recall
>it derives from pigeon. While this may be true, I don't understand it
>at all.
>
"Pidgin" is the Chinese corruption of "business" (Chambers). It differs from
a creole in that a creole is generally a full language, not a simplified one,
and frequently consists of the vocabulary of one language with the grammar of
another.
--
Raphael Mankin When you run aground, _gybe_ off.
David Casseres
ra...@panache.demon.co.uk writes:
>"Pidgin" is the Chinese corruption of "business" (Chambers). It differs from
>a creole in that a creole is generally a full language, not a simplified one,
>and frequently consists of the vocabulary of one language with the grammar of
>another.
True, but these are the technical usages of linguists. What the linguist
calls a creole, everyone else calls pidgin (if its vocabulary is
English-based, at least).
For example, the official language of Papua New Guinea (or Papua Niugini in
that language) is Tok Pisin. This name translates into English as "The Pidgin
Language."
-------------
David Casseres
Exclaimer: Hey!