lyon/marseille
retrosorter
the cities Lyon and Marseille are rendered with an added "s" as Lyons
and Marseilles in English?
Serge Paccalin
alt.usage.english,sci.lang :
> Is there any reason short of it being simply a case of mistakes that
> the cities Lyon and Marseille are rendered with an added "s" as Lyons
> and Marseilles in English?
It's a trace of declensions in Old French, inherited from Latin.
"Lyons" and "Marseilles" were subjects while "Lyon" and "Marseille" were
complements of sentences; English borrowed the former, French retained
the latter.
--
___________ 2005-02-21 20:08:06
_/ _ \_`_`_`_) Serge PACCALIN -- sp ad mailclub.net
\ \_L_) Il faut donc que les hommes commencent
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Raymond S. Wise
> Le lundi 21 février 2005 à 15:25:41, retrosorter a écrit dans
> alt.usage.english,sci.lang :
>
>> Is there any reason short of it being simply a case of mistakes that
>> the cities Lyon and Marseille are rendered with an added "s" as Lyons
>> and Marseilles in English?
>
> It's a trace of declensions in Old French, inherited from Latin.
>
> "Lyons" and "Marseilles" were subjects while "Lyon" and "Marseille"
> were complements of sentences; English borrowed the former, French
> retained the latter.
Traditionally, the "s" was pronounced in English in these names--like
"lions" and "mar-SALES." I take it they were borrowed when the final "s" was
pronounced in French.
"Fleur-de-lis" is pronounced in English with the "s" silent, while in French
the "s" is pronounced. The English form was affected by changes in the
French form over the years, but it appears that the last change in
pronunciation in French, the return to the "s" sound being pronounced, was
not copied in English.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Pierre Jelenc
>
> "Lyons" and "Marseilles" were subjects while "Lyon" and "Marseille" were
> complements of sentences; English borrowed the former, French retained
> the latter.
Where would the "s" come from in Lugdunum and Massilia?
Pierre
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Donna Richoux
> Serge Paccalin <s...@mailclub.no.spam.net.invalid> writes:
> >
> > "Lyons" and "Marseilles" were subjects while "Lyon" and "Marseille" were
> > complements of sentences; English borrowed the former, French retained
> > the latter.
>
> Where would the "s" come from in Lugdunum and Massilia?
>
The Getty Thesaurus of Geographic Names now includes references to an
on-line site "The geography of Roman Gaul" run by Ralph W. Mathisen,
Department of History, Univ. of South Carolina.
http://www.sc.edu/ltantsoc/geogmain.htm
According to that site, the "Lugdunum" on the Rhone, France used to also
be called Lugdunenses and Civ. Lugdunensium, with Lugdunensis being the
province.
That doesn't prove a direct link to the later "s" but it's certainly a
possible source.
--
Best - Donna Richoux
Aokay (David G. Bryce)
I tried that web site to answer my puzzlement about the correct
spelling of Brussels in French but it was no use. Googling
Bruxelle Bruxelles (and variations) also got me nowhere except
later. My Google skills are not up to scratch, I guess.
I had always understood that the city's name in French is
Bruxelle. Last night I was startled when I read a beer mat which
my wife had lifted from a very nice pub there and which happened
to be under my nose on the dining table. The pub (or brewery) is
Les Brasseurs on 'Grand-Place de Bruxelles.' The www seems to be
replete with Bruxelles and Bruxelle.
Does anybody know what's going on with the added s?
BTW, lunch was very nice. The beer was too [g].
dgb
Peter Moylan
>I tried that web site to answer my puzzlement about the correct
>spelling of Brussels in French but it was no use. Googling
>Bruxelle Bruxelles (and variations) also got me nowhere except
>later. My Google skills are not up to scratch, I guess.
>
> I had always understood that the city's name in French is
>Bruxelle. Last night I was startled when I read a beer mat which
>my wife had lifted from a very nice pub there and which happened
>to be under my nose on the dining table. The pub (or brewery) is
>Les Brasseurs on 'Grand-Place de Bruxelles.' The www seems to be
>replete with Bruxelles and Bruxelle.
The version with the 's' is correct. Bruxelles in French, Brussel
in Dutch, and Brussels in English. Apparently we took the
spelling from Dutch but added the French 's'. (And used the
vowels of neither language.)
The French pronunciation of the central 'x' is [ks] in France
but [s] in Belgium. Just to complicate matters, the suburb of
Ixelles has an 'x' that is pronounced [ks] even by the Belgians.
I don't suppose anyone knows why.
--
Peter Moylan peter at ee dot newcastle dot edu dot au
http://eepjm.newcastle.edu.au (OS/2 and eCS information and software)
The Grammer Genious
> <...>
> "Fleur-de-lis" is pronounced in English with the "s" silent, while in French
> the "s" is pronounced. <...>
The film "L.A. Confidential" involves a sex club
called Fleur-de-lis, and the DVD has a French
soundtrack option so you can here the Francophones
(probably Quebecers) "correcting" the American
pronunciation.
Also, anyways, it seems redundant. When we think
of a lis, we think of the fleur, don't we? "My
huzbang brung me some lily flowers fer Valentimes."
\\P. Schultz
Robert Bannister
> Aokay (David G. Bryce) turpitued:
>
>
>>I tried that web site to answer my puzzlement about the correct
>>spelling of Brussels in French but it was no use. Googling
>>Bruxelle Bruxelles (and variations) also got me nowhere except
>>later. My Google skills are not up to scratch, I guess.
>>
>>I had always understood that the city's name in French is
>>Bruxelle. Last night I was startled when I read a beer mat which
>>my wife had lifted from a very nice pub there and which happened
>>to be under my nose on the dining table. The pub (or brewery) is
>>Les Brasseurs on 'Grand-Place de Bruxelles.' The www seems to be
>>replete with Bruxelles and Bruxelle.
>
>
> The version with the 's' is correct. Bruxelles in French, Brussel
> in Dutch, and Brussels in English. Apparently we took the
> spelling from Dutch but added the French 's'. (And used the
> vowels of neither language.)
>
> The French pronunciation of the central 'x' is [ks] in France
> but [s] in Belgium. Just to complicate matters, the suburb of
> Ixelles has an 'x' that is pronounced [ks] even by the Belgians.
> I don't suppose anyone knows why.
>
So that's why for many years I pronounced Aix-la-Chapelle (Aachen) as
Ess-la-Shapel - I didn't get corrected until I went to Aix-en-Provence.
--
Rob Bannister
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Also, anyways, it seems redundant. When we think of a lis, we think
> of the fleur, don't we? "My huzbang brung me some lily flowers fer
> Valentimes."
A frog might be more partial to the "lily pad".
--
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