"Write your own ticket"
Richard Fontana
> Does ANYONE have any idea where this phrase originated? Is it just a
> good ol' Southern phrase, or does it have a wider scope?
It's definitely not just Southern.
RF
Stevie Wonder
sure it's been around for awhile, but I can't find the origin anywhere
on the Web. I would appreciate any help!
Shubes
Sami Laitinen
: good ol' Southern phrase, or does it have a wider scope? I'm pretty
: sure it's been around for awhile, but I can't find the origin anywhere
: on the Web. I would appreciate any help!
What does it mean when someone says "Write your own ticket"? Is it
something like it is your call or it is your shot?
Sami
--
----> You aren't lazy - you are only selectively motivated! <----
----> - Elizabeth Baker <----
N.Mitchum
-----
> What does it mean when someone says "Write your own ticket"? Is it
> something like it is your call or it is your shot?
More usually it's in the form, "He can write his own ticket" or "I
could write my own ticket." It's dependent on the subject's
having succeeded so well that he can have everything his own way:
"He's won the world championship and now he can write his own
ticket," and "After saving the boss' reputation among his
customers, I can write my own ticket."
If someone has said that you can "write your own ticket," it means
you can ask for anything and you're sure to get it.
----NM
Stevie Wonder
wrote:
Exactly. It usually refers to being so well-endowed with resources (of
whatever kind necessary) that one can pretty much make his own way (in
whatever field referred to). i.e. "With his ability to sell, and his
in-depth knowledge of the product, Joe knew he could pretty much write
his own ticket on his new job." I would still like to know the ORIGIN
of this saying, if anyone has any idea.
Shubes
PS: Thanks in advance!
Mark Brader
Hmm, I though it was obvious. If a normal person wants to get somewhere,
they have to go to the train station$ and spend money on a ticket. Being
able to "write your own ticket" is like having a lifetime pass -- you can
go anywhere without any worry about needing additional resources.
$ - Or the docks, or the place the stagecoach leaves from, whatever.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Common sense isn't any more common on Usenet
msbr...@interlog.com | than it is anywhere else." --Henry Spencer
My text in this article is in the public domain.
N.Mitchum
------
> >Sami Laitinen wrote:
>
> >> What does it mean when someone says "Write your own ticket"? Is it
> >> something like it is your call or it is your shot?
>
>
> >If someone has said that you can "write your own ticket," it means
> >you can ask for anything and you're sure to get it.
>
> whatever kind necessary) that one can pretty much make his own way (in
> of this saying, if anyone has any idea.
""Still"? I think the query came from someone named Sami Laitinen,
not from "Stevie Wonder." And that person asked for the meaning
of the expression, not its origin. The meaning is what I and
others provided.
----NM
Einde O'Callaghan
>
> Sami Laitinen wrote:
> -----
> > something like it is your call or it is your shot?
>
> More usually it's in the form, "He can write his own ticket" or "I
> could write my own ticket." It's dependent on the subject's
> having succeeded so well that he can have everything his own way:
> "He's won the world championship and now he can write his own
> ticket," and "After saving the boss' reputation among his
> customers, I can write my own ticket."
>
> you can ask for anything and you're sure to get it.
>
you mean that they are deciding what is going to be done.
Origins of "to call the shots" anybody? Baseball? American football? As
a Cispondian I know nothing about these games.
eo'c
Stevie Wonder
wrote:
>Stevie Wonder wrote:
>------
>> >Sami Laitinen wrote:
>>
>> >> What does it mean when someone says "Write your own ticket"? Is it
>> >> something like it is your call or it is your shot?
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> >If someone has said that you can "write your own ticket," it means
>> >you can ask for anything and you're sure to get it.
>>
>> Exactly. It usually refers to being so well-endowed with resources (of
>> whatever kind necessary) that one can pretty much make his own way (in
>> whatever field referred to). [...] I would still like to know the ORIGIN
>> of this saying, if anyone has any idea.
>>......
>
>""Still"? I think the query came from someone named Sami Laitinen,
>not from "Stevie Wonder." And that person asked for the meaning
>of the expression, not its origin. The meaning is what I and
>others provided.
>
>
>----NM
>
>
If someone else asked for the meaning of the phrase, then I didn't
find it in this newsgroup when I did a search for "ticket". I posted
the original message asking for the ORIGIN of the phrase, rather than
the meaning. None of the etymology sites I've seen on the Web have
this phrase listed.
Thanks again in advance.
"Stevie Wonder"
Brian J Goggin
Wonder) wrote:
[...]
>If someone else asked for the meaning of the phrase, then I didn't
>find it in this newsgroup when I did a search for "ticket". I posted
>the original message asking for the ORIGIN of the phrase, rather than
>the meaning. None of the etymology sites I've seen on the Web have
>this phrase listed.
>
>Thanks again in advance.
It was invented by Caleb T Whittington on 4 January 1879 when, finding
his local railroad station (in Rising Falls, Milwaukee) deserted, he
wrote his own ticket and embarked on his famous round-the-world
railway trip, about which he wrote so eloquently in *Ticket of Leave*,
published by J Pinkling & Sons, Buffalo, NY, in 1886. (The book is
now, alas, out of print.) In Chapter 4, where our hero finds himself
in Dakota, he falls to musing on the means by which he became a
long-distance traveller; he realises that the phrase can be applied
metaphorically and resolves to use it as much as possible --- starting
with his own book, in each subsequent chapter of which, except, oddly,
Chapter 21, the phrase appears. The book was immensely popular and the
phrase caught on.
bjg
Murray Arnow
Chapter 21 is the chapter most cherished by save-the-whalers. This is where
Caleb visited Nantucket and lost his ticket. While searching for his ticket he
was shocked to learn that baleen whales were being slaughtered for the purpose
of providing stays for women's corsets. Caleb was overwhelmed by the whales
plight and stayed his search to invent steel stays for the staid ladies. Soon
after his invention, Caleb returned to his hotel to find a smiling clerk
holding a familiar piece of paper. Caleb added another phrase to our language
when he exclaimed "That's the ticket."
Murray Arnow
when he exclaimed "That's the ticket!"
Murray Arnow
> On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 01:01:18 GMT, shub...@hotmail.com.no.spam (Stevie
> Wonder) wrote:
> [...]
>>If someone else asked for the meaning of the phrase, then I didn't
>>find it in this newsgroup when I did a search for "ticket". I posted
>>the original message asking for the ORIGIN of the phrase, rather than
>>the meaning. None of the etymology sites I've seen on the Web have
>>this phrase listed.
>>
>>Thanks again in advance.
> It was invented by Caleb T Whittington on 4 January 1879 when, finding
> his local railroad station (in Rising Falls, Milwaukee) deserted, he
> wrote his own ticket and embarked on his famous round-the-world
> railway trip, about which he wrote so eloquently in *Ticket of Leave*,
> published by J Pinkling & Sons, Buffalo, NY, in 1886. (The book is
> now, alas, out of print.) In Chapter 4, where our hero finds himself
> in Dakota, he falls to musing on the means by which he became a
> long-distance traveller; he realises that the phrase can be applied
> metaphorically and resolves to use it as much as possible --- starting
> with his own book, in each subsequent chapter of which, except, oddly,
> Chapter 21, the phrase appears. The book was immensely popular and the
> phrase caught on.
Chapter 21 is the chapter most cherished by save-the-whalers. This where
Caleb visited Nantucket and lost his ticket. While searching for his
ticket, he was shocked to learn that baleen whales were being slaughtered
for the pupose of providing stays for women's corsets. Caleb was
overwhelmed by the whales' plight and stayed his search to invent steel
stays for the staid ladies. Soon after his invention, Caleb returned to
his hotel to find a smiling clerk holding a familiar piece of paper. Caleb
added another phrase tour language when he exclaimed "That's the ticket!"
Murray Arnow
N.Mitchum
-----
> >> >Sami Laitinen wrote:
> >>
> >> >> What does it mean when someone says "Write your own ticket"?
>
> >of the expression, not its origin.
> If someone else asked for the meaning of the phrase, then I didn't
> find it in this newsgroup when I did a search for "ticket". I posted
> the original message asking for the ORIGIN of the phrase
On the other hand, yours is the message *I* haven't seen. As you
must have noticed, I have (once again) quoted the message we have
all been responding to.
I don't suppose you'll ever find the one, true origin of the
expression.
----NM
Orne Batmagoo
>> I would still like to know the ORIGIN of this saying, if anyone has any idea.
>
> they have to go to the train station$ and spend money on a ticket. Being
> able to "write your own ticket" is like having a lifetime pass -- you can
> go anywhere without any worry about needing additional resources.
>
> $ - Or the docks, or the place the stagecoach leaves from, whatever.
As is usually the case with the obvious derivation, this is not exactly right.
The common modern meaning of "ticket" is, as Mark indicates, a pass that admits
the bearer to board a train, or see a play, or "whatever".
However, this obvious meaning is not the meaning in "write your own ticket".
I'm fairly confident (though I have no reference handy to invoke just now)
that this expression originated during the days of sea travel, when a ship's
captain or pilot was required to carry a document certifying his right and
ability to perform the job. Nowadays we would call such a document a "license"
(Br. licence) but it used to be called a "ticket". (Some trade unions still
use the word in a similar fashion; others call it a "union card".)
If someone _owned_ the boat he was not beholden to any authority other than
his own to document his right to sail the vessel. He wrote his own ticket.
--
Orne Batmagoo
Stevie Wonder
wrote:
Well, actually I did, thanks to Brian J. Goggin. And the Sami Laitinen
that asked, "What does it mean when someone says 'Write your own
ticket'?" had posted to my original post searching for the origin of
the phrase.
But thanks for the input, anyway. And MANY thanks to Mr. Goggin for
letting me know the ORIGIN!
Shubes
Stevie Wonder
wrote:
>On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 01:01:18 GMT, shub...@hotmail.com.no.spam (Stevie
>Wonder) wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>If someone else asked for the meaning of the phrase, then I didn't
>>find it in this newsgroup when I did a search for "ticket". I posted
>>the original message asking for the ORIGIN of the phrase, rather than
>>the meaning. None of the etymology sites I've seen on the Web have
>>this phrase listed.
>>
>>Thanks again in advance.
>
>It was invented by Caleb T Whittington on 4 January 1879 when, finding
>his local railroad station (in Rising Falls, Milwaukee) deserted, he
>wrote his own ticket and embarked on his famous round-the-world
>railway trip, about which he wrote so eloquently in *Ticket of Leave*,
>published by J Pinkling & Sons, Buffalo, NY, in 1886. (The book is
>now, alas, out of print.) In Chapter 4, where our hero finds himself
>in Dakota, he falls to musing on the means by which he became a
>long-distance traveller; he realises that the phrase can be applied
>metaphorically and resolves to use it as much as possible --- starting
>with his own book, in each subsequent chapter of which, except, oddly,
>Chapter 21, the phrase appears. The book was immensely popular and the
>phrase caught on.
>
>bjg
>
THANK YOU VERY MUCH! I was about to wonder if I would EVER realize the
origin of this phrase. My heartfelt gratitude to you, sir...And if you
have a website with information like this on it, I would definitely
bookmark it!
Shubes
N.Mitchum
------
> >I don't suppose you'll ever find the one, true origin of the
> >expression.
>
>
> But thanks for the input, anyway. And MANY thanks to Mr. Goggin for
> letting me know the ORIGIN!
Before you celebrate, you might double-check with Brian and make
sure he didn't invent that "origin" out of whole cloth. It had
the earmarks of pure humbug ... which I assumed it to be.
----NM
John Nurick
wrote:
Se non è vero, say I. Thank you, Brian.
obaue: I'd expect "hallmarks" rather than"earmarks". Is this a
transpondental difference, or has Nathan's mind just been too much on
sheep?
--
John
JB
> Yes, that's about it. Whereas if you say somebody is "calling the shots"
> you mean that they are deciding what is going to be done.
>
> Origins of "to call the shots" anybody? Baseball? American football? As
> a Cispondian I know nothing about these games.
In pool (pocket billiards) you must 'call your shots,' i.e. explain them
in advance, in order for them to count. --JB
Mike Barnes
>In pool (pocket billiards) you must 'call your shots,' i.e. explain them
>in advance, in order for them to count. --JB
Is "pocket billiards" really another name for the game of pool? I know
it only as a name for quite another diversion, played with one long
thing and two round things, in the vicinity of one's pockets.
--
-- Mike Barnes, Stockport, England.
-- If you post a response to Usenet, please *don't* send me a copy by e-mail.
Robert Lieblich
>
> In alt.usage.english, JB <EMAILTO...@carolina.rr.com> wrote
> >In pool (pocket billiards) you must 'call your shots,' i.e. explain them
> >in advance, in order for them to count. --JB
>
> Is "pocket billiards" really another name for the game of pool? I know
> it only as a name for quite another diversion, played with one long
> thing and two round things, in the vicinity of one's pockets.
A couple of decades ago many a pool parlor (at least in the US)
installed carpeting, took to offering mixed drinks, and otherwise
invited a tonier crowd. To distinguish themselves from the old
beer-and-sawdust places, they took to calling themselves "pocket
billiards" emporia. Much as bowling alleys took to calling themselves
"lanes." It didn't catch on.
I usually hear the game involving one's garment referred to as "pocket
pool."
Bob Lieblich
Stephen Toogood
<mi...@exodus.co.uk> writes
>In alt.usage.english, JB <EMAILTO...@carolina.rr.com> wrote
>>In pool (pocket billiards) you must 'call your shots,' i.e. explain them
>>in advance, in order for them to count. --JB
>
>Is "pocket billiards" really another name for the game of pool? I know
>it only as a name for quite another diversion, played with one long
>thing and two round things, in the vicinity of one's pockets.
>
a revision.
Do you think it might be decent of us to warn any prospective visitors?
--
Stephen Toogood
Michael Cargal
>In alt.usage.english, JB <EMAILTO...@carolina.rr.com> wrote
>>In pool (pocket billiards) you must 'call your shots,' i.e. explain them
>>in advance, in order for them to count. --JB
>
>Is "pocket billiards" really another name for the game of pool? I know
>it only as a name for quite another diversion, played with one long
>thing and two round things, in the vicinity of one's pockets.
That's pocket pool. Pocket billiards is the kind of pool you shoot on
a pool table.
--
Michael Cargal car...@cts.com
JB
At a British athletic club I belonged to in Rio de Janeiro, I was
emphatically informed that billiards was pocketless carom billiards,
pocket billiards was snooker, and pool was an unmentionable American
derivative.
As for pocket pool, I wouldn't touch that one with a 10-foot cue.
--JB
K1912
>In alt.usage.english, JB <EMAILTO...@carolina.rr.com> wrote
>>In pool (pocket billiards) you must 'call your shots,' i.e. explain them
>>in advance, in order for them to count. --JB
>
>Is "pocket billiards" really another name for the game of pool? I know
>it only as a name for quite another diversion, played with one long
>thing and two round things, in the vicinity of one's pockets.
>
A vieux jeu to me now.
G/G
chris harrison
> At a British athletic club I belonged to in Rio de Janeiro, I was
> emphatically informed that billiards was pocketless carom billiards,
> pocket billiards was snooker, and pool was an unmentionable American
> derivative.
I thought "pocket billiards" was a euphemism? :)
--
"Only Smarties have the answer" - Rules for life
chris harrison - http://www.lowfield.co.uk/
Skitt
JB <EMAILTO...@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
> Einde O'Callaghan wrote:
>
> > Yes, that's about it. Whereas if you say somebody is "calling the
shots"
> > you mean that they are deciding what is going to be done.
> >
> > Origins of "to call the shots" anybody? Baseball? American football?
As
> > a Cispondian I know nothing about these games.
>
them
> in advance, in order for them to count. --JB
>
Those are only bar rules. In tournament play that is not required, but
good shooting is. Bar rules may even vary from bar to bar (regarding
jump shots, masse, etc.).
--
Skitt
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Brian J Goggin
>Mike Barnes wrote:
[...]
>>Is "pocket billiards" really another name for the game of pool? I know
>>it only as a name for quite another diversion, played with one long
>>thing and two round things, in the vicinity of one's pockets.
>A vieux jeu to me now.
The most unkindest cut of all.
bjg
Skitt
chris harrison <ca...@icparc.ic.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:37E0C44D...@icparc.ic.ac.uk...
> JB wrote:
> > At a British athletic club I belonged to in Rio de Janeiro, I was
> > emphatically informed that billiards was pocketless carom billiards,
> > pocket billiards was snooker, and pool was an unmentionable American
> > derivative.
>
> I thought "pocket billiards" was a euphemism? :)
Pocket billiards includes all the games played on a billiard table with
pockets. Some of those are:
Eight ball, nine ball, straight pool, three ball, rotation, and snooker
(played on a larger table with smaller pockets and using an augmented set of
balls).
As mentioned above, a true billiard table has no pockets.
--
Skitt (on Florida's Space Coast) http://skitt.i.am/
CAUTION: My veracity is under a limited warranty
chris harrison
>
> chris harrison <ca...@icparc.ic.ac.uk> wrote in message
> news:37E0C44D...@icparc.ic.ac.uk...
>
> Pocket billiards includes all the games played on a billiard table with
> pockets. Some of those are:
> Eight ball, nine ball, straight pool, three ball, rotation, and snooker
> (played on a larger table with smaller pockets and using an augmented set of
> balls).
>
> As mentioned above, a true billiard table has no pockets.
Indeed so. Snooker, with it's larger table and smaller pockets is a
great way to practice for pool - the pool table takes on certain
cavernous qualities in comparison.
I was alluding to "pocket billards" a game for one male player for which
a pair of trousers, with pockets, is the only qualification.
--
"Our chief weapons are 'who', 'ps -aux', 'kill -9', and a fanatical
devotion to 'reboot -q'"
a1a5...@sprint.ca
>As mentioned above, a true billiard table has no pockets.
>--
>Skitt (on Florida's Space Coast) http://skitt.i.am/
> CAUTION: My veracity is under a limited warranty
>
Is there a designated catcher?
Mike Barnes
>As mentioned above, a true billiard table has no pockets.
I agree with Chambers, where it says:
*billiards* any of various games played with a cue and balls on a
rectangular table, the table in the most common version having pockets
at the sides and corners, into which the balls can be struck.
In the same definition it mentions "billiard table" without further
explanation.
I'm not disagreeing with you, merely pointing out that there are other
ways of looking at this. It does rather depend on what you meant by
"true".
In bar billiards, the table has no pockets, but it does have holes in
the surface for balls to drop through. I don't think that's a "true
billiard table".
[no more from me for a week, I'm off to sunny Ireland]
Brian J Goggin
wrote:
[...]
>[no more from me for a week, I'm off to sunny Ireland]
It is too.
bjg
Evan Kirshenbaum
> In article <37DF1646...@carolina.rr.com>,
> JB <EMAILTO...@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
> > In pool (pocket billiards) you must 'call your shots,' i.e.
> > explain them in advance, in order for them to count.
>
> Those are only bar rules. In tournament play that is not required,
> but good shooting is. Bar rules may even vary from bar to bar
> (regarding jump shots, masse, etc.).
I thought that it was standard in eight-ball (or "stripes-and-solids")
when pocketing the eight ball to be required to "call your pocket"
(which is what it was called). If you sank the eight in any other
pocket, it was a scratch and you immediately lost the game.
I'd guess that "calling the shots" has a military derivation rather
than a sporting one. I envision the officer in charge of the
artillery calling the shots by choosing the targets and deciding when
to fire. But that's just a guess.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |On a scale of one to ten...
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |it sucked.
Palo Alto, CA 94304
Evan Kirshenbaum
> In bar billiards, the table has no pockets, but it does have holes in
> the surface for balls to drop through. I don't think that's a "true
> billiard table".
The only table I can think of that has holes in the surface is for
bumper pool (rectangular or octagonal table, one hole at each end
flanked by two pinball-like "bumpers", eight other bumpers in a cross
in the center of the table, five red balls and five white balls). Is
that what you mean by "bar billiards"?
I'd classify bumper pool as a "type of pool", but my image of a
"billiards table" is primarily the rectangular one without pockets (or
bumpers) and only includes pool tables by extension. But perhaps
that's because pool is so much more popular in this country than
billiards that a "billiard table" is thought of as a special kind of
pool table without pockets rather than the other way around.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The General Theorem of Usenet
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |Information: If you really want to
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |know the definitive answer, post
|the wrong information, and wait for
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |someone to come by and explain in
(650)857-7572 |excruciating detail precisely how
|wrong you are.
| Eric The Read
JB
> >
> > > Yes, that's about it. Whereas if you say somebody is "calling the
> shots"
> > > you mean that they are deciding what is going to be done.
> > >
> > > Origins of "to call the shots" anybody? Baseball? American football?
> As
> > > a Cispondian I know nothing about these games.
> >
> them
> >
>
> Those are only bar rules. In tournament play that is not required
Not so. In 8-ball and 9-ball tournaments, the 8/9-ball shot must always
be called, except on the break. --JB
Skitt
JB <EMAILTO...@carolina.rr.com> wrote in message
news:37E2AACC...@carolina.rr.com...
True, but most of the time for good players the usually straight-in, short
shot is obvious.
--
Skitt (on Florida's Space Coast) http://i.am/skitt/
... information is gushing toward your brain like a fire hose aimed
at a teacup. -- Dogbert
Tim Martin
Evan Kirshenbaum <ev...@garrett.hpl.hp.com> wrote in message
news:v9h4sgt...@garrett.hpl.hp.com...
> I'd classify bumper pool as a "type of pool", but my image of a
> "billiards table" is primarily the rectangular one without pockets (or
> bumpers) and only includes pool tables by extension. But perhaps
> that's because pool is so much more popular in this country than
> billiards that a "billiard table" is thought of as a special kind of
> pool table without pockets rather than the other way around.
Without pockets? That would prevent its being used for billards. What
games would you play on it?
Tim
Charles Riggs
Billiards can refer to a game with three balls played on a table
without pockets where the object, if I recall, is to hit one of the
balls with the cue ball and cause that ball to strike the third. Is it
a game played, most often, in Great Britain?
Charles Riggs
John Davies
<ri...@eircom.net> writes
In British English "billiards" without any qualifier means a game played
on a table with 6 pockets, with two white balls and one red. Points are
scored by potting the red, potting one's opponent's ball, potting
another ball off one of those two, or by hitting the two other balls
with the cue ball (a "cannon").
I gather there is a billiards-like game called "carom" which is played
on a table without pockets, but I've never seen it played in Britain. I
believe it is popular in continental Europe.
Billiards itself is less popular than it used to be. It has been
eclipsed by the success of snooker, which has proved to be an
astonishingly successful TV sport. Snooker is played on an enormous
6-pocket table with one white cue ball, 15 reds, and 6 balls of other
colours: a red has to be potted (for 1 point) before a ball of another
colour can be attempted. At the end the coloured balls have to be potted
in order of their point-scoring value, the least valuable first.
Pool is played mainly in pubs, along with all kinds of other weird and
wonderful billiard variations, usually requiring a special coin-operated
table, which are lumped together under the blanket label "bar
billiards".
"Skill at billiards denotes a mis-spent youth" is a commonly heard
platitude, especially from players who are losing rather badly. If the
reverse is also true, I must have been an unusually virtuous young man.
--
John Davies (jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk)
JB
>
> In article <37fbfd08...@news1.tinet.ie>, Charles Riggs
> <ri...@eircom.net> writes
> >On Sat, 18 Sep 1999 18:44:01 +0100, "Tim Martin"
> ><Tim.M...@tesco.net> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>Evan Kirshenbaum <ev...@garrett.hpl.hp.com> wrote in message
> >>news:v9h4sgt...@garrett.hpl.hp.com...
> >>
> >>> I'd classify bumper pool as a "type of pool", but my image of a
> >>> "billiards table" is primarily the rectangular one without pockets (or
> >>> bumpers) and only includes pool tables by extension. But perhaps
> >>> that's because pool is so much more popular in this country than
> >>> billiards that a "billiard table" is thought of as a special kind of
> >>> pool table without pockets rather than the other way around.
> >>
> >>Without pockets? That would prevent its being used for billards. What
> >>games would you play on it?
> >
> >Billiards can refer to a game with three balls played on a table
> >without pockets where the object, if I recall, is to hit one of the
> >balls with the cue ball and cause that ball to strike the third. Is it
> >a game played, most often, in Great Britain?
>
> In British English "billiards" without any qualifier means a game played
> on a table with 6 pockets, with two white balls and one red. Points are
> scored by potting the red, potting one's opponent's ball, potting
> another ball off one of those two, or by hitting the two other balls
> with the cue ball (a "cannon").
Are you sure about this game description (3 balls on a pocketed table)?
I have never come across it.
> I gather there is a billiards-like game called "carom" which is played
> on a table without pockets, but I've never seen it played in Britain. I
> believe it is popular in continental Europe.
This is the game played with 3 balls on a pocketless table, called
billiards or carom billiards in my experience. The object of each shot
is to cause the cue ball to strike both of the other balls, usually with
a specified number of siderail cushion bounces of the cue ball required
between its contacts with the first and second object balls.
> Billiards itself is less popular than it used to be. It has been
> eclipsed by the success of snooker, which has proved to be an
> astonishingly successful TV sport. Snooker is played on an enormous
> 6-pocket table with one white cue ball, 15 reds, and 6 balls of other
> colours: a red has to be potted (for 1 point) before a ball of another
> colour can be attempted. At the end the coloured balls have to be potted
> in order of their point-scoring value, the least valuable first.
>
> Pool is played mainly in pubs, along with all kinds of other weird and
> wonderful billiard variations, usually requiring a special coin-operated
> table, which are lumped together under the blanket label "bar
> billiards".
In my experience, real billiard-type games are played on three kinds of
tables: billiard (pocketless), snooker (as you describe above) and pool
(6-pocketed) tables. I do not include bumper pool tables as these are
bar games of the same genre as air hockey, foosball and pinball. There
are coin-operated 3/4 size pool tables but this is not real pool, which
must be on a regulation 8-foot table.
> "Skill at billiards denotes a mis-spent youth" is a commonly heard
> platitude, especially from players who are losing rather badly. If the
> reverse is also true, I must have been an unusually virtuous young man.
--J(mis-spent youth)B
John Davies
ina.rr.com> writes
>John Davies wrote:
>> In British English "billiards" without any qualifier means a game played
>> on a table with 6 pockets, with two white balls and one red. Points are
>> scored by potting the red, potting one's opponent's ball, potting
>> another ball off one of those two, or by hitting the two other balls
>> with the cue ball (a "cannon").
>
>Are you sure about this game description (3 balls on a pocketed table)?
>I have never come across it.
Quite sure: I played it often as a boy. My memory of it was refreshed by
consulting the Hutchinson Encyclopaedia, and I've just looked also in
the New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, which says:
"...in the standard form played with three balls and a table with six
pockets at the corners and sides..."
>
>
>> I gather there is a billiards-like game called "carom" which is played
>> on a table without pockets, but I've never seen it played in Britain. I
>> believe it is popular in continental Europe.
>
>This is the game played with 3 balls on a pocketless table, called
>billiards or carom billiards in my experience.
It's clear from what you and others have said that "billiards" in the US
denotes a quite different game from the one played under that name in
Britain. Just another example from a long list...
--
John Davies (jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk)
Peter Moylan
>John Davies wrote:
>> In British English "billiards" without any qualifier means a game played
>> on a table with 6 pockets, with two white balls and one red. Points are
>> scored by potting the red, potting one's opponent's ball, potting
>> another ball off one of those two, or by hitting the two other balls
>> with the cue ball (a "cannon").
>
>Are you sure about this game description (3 balls on a pocketed table)?
>I have never come across it.
If it helps, my description of billiards would match John's exactly.
I've played billiards often enough - in my time it was either that
or snooker, we'd never heard of pool - and the pockets were an
essential part of the game.
I hadn't heard of "carom" until today, and I've never seen a billiards
table without pockets. I've heard of "pocket billiards", but you
don't play that on a table.
--
Peter Moylan pe...@ee.newcastle.edu.au
Evan Kirshenbaum
> JB <EMAILTO...@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
> >John Davies wrote:
>
> >> In British English "billiards" without any qualifier means a game
> >> played on a table with 6 pockets, with two white balls and one
> >> red. Points are scored by potting the red, potting one's
> >> opponent's ball, potting another ball off one of those two, or by
> >> hitting the two other balls with the cue ball (a "cannon").
> >
> >Are you sure about this game description (3 balls on a pocketed
> >table)? I have never come across it.
>
> If it helps, my description of billiards would match John's exactly.
> I've played billiards often enough - in my time it was either that
> or snooker, we'd never heard of pool - and the pockets were an
> essential part of the game.
>
> I hadn't heard of "carom" until today, and I've never seen a
> billiards table without pockets.
This is very interesting to me, as well. I've always viewed what I
know as "billiards" as an English game, and the most salient
difference between it and pool is that (what I know as) billiards is
played on a table without pockets.
The definition in MWCD10 supports both games:
any of several games played on an oblong table by driving small
balls against one another or into pockets with a cue;
specifically : a game in which one scores by causing a cue ball
to hit in succession two object balls
but the "specifically" describes the game I know.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |There is no such thing as bad data,
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |only data from bad homes.
Lee Rudolph
>pe...@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan) writes:
...
>> If it helps, my description of billiards would match John's exactly.
>> I've played billiards often enough - in my time it was either that
>> or snooker, we'd never heard of pool - and the pockets were an
>> essential part of the game.
>>
>> I hadn't heard of "carom" until today, and I've never seen a
>> billiards table without pockets.
>
>This is very interesting to me, as well. I've always viewed what I
>know as "billiards" as an English game, and the most salient
>difference between it and pool is that (what I know as) billiards is
>played on a table without pockets.
I'm in Evan's position. But I find in the 1911 Encyclopedia
Britannica an uniquivocal endorsement of the notion that "English
billiards", and in particular "billiards proper" (the EB's phrases
in both cases), are games played on a table with pockets, whereas
"French and American billiards is played on a pocketless table,
the only kind of table that is used in France, though the American
table with six pockets is also occasionally to be found in America."
Of even greater interest, however, is the following comment on
the origin of the game. "In an American text-book, _Modern
Billiards_, it is stated that Catkire More (Conn Cetchathach),
king of Ireland in the 2nd century, left behind him
`fifty-five billiard balls, of brass, with the pools
and cues of the same materials.'" (A quick scan through
the remainder of the article doesn't find me any definition
of "pools".)
Did Catkire More, perhaps, also keep monkeys?
Lee Rudolph
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Of even greater interest, however, is the following comment on
> the origin of the game. "In an American text-book, _Modern
> Billiards_, it is stated that Catkire More (Conn Cetchathach),
> king of Ireland in the 2nd century, left behind him
> `fifty-five billiard balls, of brass, with the pools
> and cues of the same materials.'" (A quick scan through
> the remainder of the article doesn't find me any definition
> of "pools".)
Perhaps they just meant he left 55,000,000,000,000,000 brass balls,
not that it had anything to do with the game.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |If you think health care is
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |expensive now, wait until you see
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |what it costs when it's free.
| P.J. O'Rourke
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Evan Kirshenbaum
> From Encyclopedia.com:
> [begin quote]
> billiards
> any of several games played with a leather-tipped
> stick (cue) and various numbers of balls on an
> oblong, cloth-covered table with raised, cushioned
> edges. The three main types are carom billiards,
> played with three balls on a pocketless table;
> pocket billiards (or pool), using a cue ball and 15
> object balls on a table with six pockets; and
> snooker, similar to pool but with 21 object balls.
> Variants were popular in England and France in the
> 16th cent.
> [end quote]
>
> You guys playing the variants must be oldtimers (16th cent.)
What you tend to find on TV in the US these days is none of the
above. It is played on a six-pocket table, but uses a cue ball and
only nine object balls.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The skinny models whose main job is
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |to display clothes aren't hired for
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |their sex appeal. They're hired
|for their resemblance to a
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |coat-hanger.
(650)857-7572 | Peter Moylan
Stephen Toogood
<lrud...@panix.com> writes
[ - ]
>Of even greater interest, however, is the following comment on
>the origin of the game. "In an American text-book, _Modern
>Billiards_, it is stated that Catkire More (Conn Cetchathach),
>king of Ireland in the 2nd century, left behind him
>`fifty-five billiard balls, of brass, with the pools
>and cues of the same materials.'" (A quick scan through
>the remainder of the article doesn't find me any definition
>of "pools".)
>
>
then lurk for a few days, and report back. Harmless amusement.
--
Stephen Toogood
Skitt
Mike Barnes wrote in answer to what John Davies
<jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk> had written:
>>Billiards itself is less popular than it used to be. It has been
>>eclipsed by the success of snooker, which has proved to be an
>>astonishingly successful TV sport.
>I think the rot set in earlier than that, when Joe Davis got so good at
>the game that his breaks continued for as long as he wanted them to.
That makes me reminisce fondly upon the one occasion when I, much to the
chagrin of my opponent, made the eight-ball on the break in three
consecutive games. When breaking in the fourth game, I said I'd let him
off the hook, called the one-ball (head ball) in the side, made it, and
then ran the table.
I had a large audience, as this happened at Club Zayante (SF Bay Area
people may know the place) while playing the local club "Ace". That was
my one afternoon of fame.
Mike Barnes
It was, for one day. Then it rained. And rained. And rained. And
rained. And then it was time for me to come home, so the sun came out
again.
The Guinness was good, though.
Mike Barnes
>Mike Barnes <mi...@exodus.co.uk> writes:
>
>> In bar billiards, the table has no pockets, but it does have holes in
>> the surface for balls to drop through. I don't think that's a "true
>> billiard table".
>
>The only table I can think of that has holes in the surface is for
>bumper pool (rectangular or octagonal table, one hole at each end
>flanked by two pinball-like "bumpers", eight other bumpers in a cross
>in the center of the table, five red balls and five white balls). Is
>that what you mean by "bar billiards"?
No - I've never seen that game, and it sounds interesting. "Bar
billiards" is an old-fashioned British pub game, popular with landlords
because it's played entirely from one end of the table - so the table
can be placed against a wall or even in a corner, leaving space for more
drinkers.
In bar billiards there are ten (-ish) holes in the surface (each with a
scoring value), ten (-ish) white balls, one red ball that counts double,
four penalty "mushrooms" that balance in front of the most valuable
holes, and no pockets. Players score points by striking object balls
with the cue ball so that they drop down the holes. A ramp under the
table returns the balls from the holes to the player. There is a bar
that blocks the balls' return path - this bar rises when you put the
coin(s) in, and drops automatically after a fixed time, signalling the
(beginning of the) end of the game. It is this bar that gives the game
its name.
Charles Riggs
wrote:
>In alt.usage.english, Brian J Goggin <b...@wordwrights.ie> wrote
>>On Thu, 16 Sep 1999 16:13:20 +0100, Mike Barnes <mi...@exodus.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>>[no more from me for a week, I'm off to sunny Ireland]
>>
>>It is too.
>
>It was, for one day. Then it rained. And rained. And rained. And
>rained. And then it was time for me to come home, so the sun came out
>again.
>
>The Guinness was good, though.
Few people come here for a suntan. The Guinness and the music make the
rain more than tolerable though.
Charles Riggs
Mike Barnes
>On Thu, 23 Sep 1999 00:09:41 +0100, Mike Barnes <mi...@exodus.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In alt.usage.english, Brian J Goggin <b...@wordwrights.ie> wrote
>>>On Thu, 16 Sep 1999 16:13:20 +0100, Mike Barnes <mi...@exodus.co.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>[...]
>>>
>>>>[no more from me for a week, I'm off to sunny Ireland]
>>>
>>>It is too.
>>
>>It was, for one day. Then it rained. And rained. And rained. And
>>rained. And then it was time for me to come home, so the sun came out
>>again.
>>
>>The Guinness was good, though.
>
>Few people come here for a suntan.
True, but it would have been nice to have seen the scenery, especially
in Co. Donegal, where it's quite good - or so I've been told. And we
did get rather wet sprinting from one pub to the next, even though it
was only about twenty feet on average.
Bill Schnakenberg
> >> on a table with 6 pockets, with two white balls and one red. Points are
> >> scored by potting the red, potting one's opponent's ball, potting
> >> with the cue ball (a "cannon").
> >
> >Are you sure about this game description (3 balls on a pocketed table)?
> >I have never come across it.
>
> I've played billiards often enough - in my time it was either that
> or snooker, we'd never heard of pool - and the pockets were an
> essential part of the game.
>
Whilst in the US Navy many years ago, my ship visited Gibralter and I was
assigned Shore Patrol (SP) duty, which is the naval equivalent of Military
Police (MP), with powers limited to the behavior of US sailors while
ashore. I spent my SP tour in a building with members of the british
equivalent of military police. They had a snooker table in the building and
I watched them play the game. It was the first time I had heard of
'snooker' and I don't remember the number of balls, their color, or if the
table had pockets. The only thing I do seem to remember was that the table
was much larger than the american standard 'pool table', or do I
misremember that too?
> I hadn't heard of "carom" until today, and I've never seen a billiards
> table without pockets. I've heard of "pocket billiards", but you
> don't play that on a table.
>
> --
> Peter Moylan pe...@ee.newcastle.edu.au
--
Bill -
PSP Terrorist - D'Lanok de Caresk chapter - Anti-Troll Unit 235
--------------------------------------------------------------
The USS Salem, CA-139. The World's only preserved Heavy Cruiser,
Quincy, MASS. http://members.xoom.com/ltwes329/salem.html
--------------------------------------------------------------
Remove OutSpammedDot from my e-mail address when replying directly.
Any e-mail sent from @Hotmail.com is deleted without being read.
Mike Barnes
>Billiards itself is less popular than it used to be. It has been
>eclipsed by the success of snooker, which has proved to be an
>astonishingly successful TV sport.
I think the rot set in earlier than that, when Joe Davis got so good at
the game that his breaks continued for as long as he wanted them to.
--
Mike Barnes
et.net> wrote
>Whilst in the US Navy many years ago, my ship visited Gibralter and I was
>assigned Shore Patrol (SP) duty, which is the naval equivalent of Military
>Police (MP), with powers limited to the behavior of US sailors while
>ashore. I spent my SP tour in a building with members of the british
>equivalent of military police. They had a snooker table in the building and
>I watched them play the game. It was the first time I had heard of
>'snooker' and I don't remember the number of balls, their color, or if the
>table had pockets.
Fifteen red balls (one point for pocketing each), and one each of white
(the cue ball, minus at least four points), yellow (two points), green
(three points), brown (four points), blue (five points), pink (six
points), and black (seven points).
There are six pockets, positioned as on a pool table, but narrower.
> The only thing I do seem to remember was that the table
>was much larger than the american standard 'pool table', or do I
>misremember that too?
You remember it right. Because the table is so large (about 12'x6'
playing area), it's often not possible to reach the cue ball with a
standard cue, so various long cues and rests are provided, in racks
below the cushions.
JB
>
> Whilst in the US Navy many years ago, my ship visited Gibralter and I was
> assigned Shore Patrol (SP) duty, which is the naval equivalent of Military
> Police (MP), with powers limited to the behavior of US sailors while
> ashore. I spent my SP tour in a building with members of the british
> equivalent of military police. They had a snooker table in the building and
> I watched them play the game. It was the first time I had heard of
> 'snooker' and I don't remember the number of balls, their color, or if the
> was much larger than the american standard 'pool table', or do I
> misremember that too?
>
smaller pockets guarded by rounded entry cushions, with much smaller
balls, all of which combine to make snooker much more difficult to play
well than pool. --JB
Lee Witchell
JB wrote:
>
> Bill Schnakenberg wrote:
> >
snip
USA pool tables also use pockets much larger than uk/europe pool tables
(slightly bigger table as well).
So if you try snooker it turns out be be bloody difficult to pot a ball
even if you are a great pool player. So be warned in case you try and
impress some mates dowm the local bar/pub/club.
Lee
Bill Schnakenberg
Academy in Quantico, Virginia back in '79. The reason being that the
academy had students from all over the world.
--
James Follett
willshakOu...@frontiernet.net "Bill Schnakenberg" writes:
>The only snooker table I recall seeing in the US was at the FBI National
>Academy in Quantico, Virginia back in '79. The reason being that the
>academy had students from all over the world.
Snooker (WWI origin), like Usenet posts, is best not played upsidedown.
--
James Follett -- novelist http://www.davew.demon.co.uk
John Davies
<mi...@exodus.co.uk> writes
>In alt.usage.english, John Davies <jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk> wrote
>>Billiards itself is less popular than it used to be. It has been
>>eclipsed by the success of snooker, which has proved to be an
>>astonishingly successful TV sport.
>
>I think the rot set in earlier than that, when Joe Davis got so good at
>the game that his breaks continued for as long as he wanted them to.
>
I've forgotten the details, but I seem to recollect that he developed a
particular position of the balls from which a really skillful player
could go on scoring indefinitely, as each time he scored the balls
returned to their original position. The rules were eventually changed
to prevent a player doing that more than a couple of times.
--
John Davies (jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk)
John Davies
<ja...@marage.demon.co.uk> writes
[...]
>Snooker (WWI origin)
>
Earlier than that: according to Hutchinson's Encyclopaedia, "The game
was invented by British Army officers serving with the Devonshire
Regiment in Jubbalpore, India, in 1875 and derived from the game of
black pool."
No, I wasn't actually there at the time. I was having tiffin with the
Memsahib. Nothin' she liked better, unfortunately.
--
John Davies (jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk)
Evan Kirshenbaum
> USA pool tables also use pockets much larger than uk/europe pool
> tables (slightly bigger table as well). So if you try snooker it
> turns out be be bloody difficult to pot a ball even if you are a
> great pool player. So be warned in case you try and impress some
> mates dowm the local bar/pub/club.
I wish I could remember the outcome, but I do recall seeing a pair of
matches between a US 9-ball champion and a UK snooker champ (or at the
least, high-ranked players on each side) in which they played both
games. I believe that the result was that each won their own, but
played credibly on the other's, but I don't recall.
One of the few times I've seen snooker on TV.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Usenet is like Tetris for people
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |who still remember how to read.
rasput...@gmail.com
> Previously, on alt.usage.english, Stevie Wonder said:
> > Does ANYONE have any idea where this phrase originated? Is it just a
> > good ol' Southern phrase, or does it have a wider scope?
>
> It's definitely not just Southern.
>
>
> RF
"Write your own ticket" means, a person, usually a rookie to a particular career, has, with his own talents and efforts, arrived a point where he need no longer defer to his superiors within his chosen field. He can start deciding exactly how he wants his future career to happen, suiting his own terms and goals, not those of others.
Ex. "I just saw the movie JERSEY BOYS. Young actor Vincent Piazza positively steals that movie, and from here on out, can write his own ticket as an actor in the movie business."
ie., He is so talented-- and he has "paid his dues"---- such that he no longer need settle in future for roles he feels unsuited for; he can choose his future roles himself, and thus direct the trajectory of his future career himself.
rasput...@gmail.com
> Previously, on alt.usage.english, Stevie Wonder said:
> > Does ANYONE have any idea where this phrase originated? Is it just a
> > good ol' Southern phrase, or does it have a wider scope?
>
> It's definitely not just Southern.
>
>
> RF
Charles Bishop
--
charles
![Peter Duncanson [BrE]'s profile photo](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/ALV-UjU1GGYFBCZgBCNB-pRgkosMu-ej0qpnECw3jc8uGYOTiF8a=s40-c)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
OED:
to write one's own ticket : to be able to stipulate one's own
conditions, to be in an advantageous position. colloq.
1928 P. G. Wodehouse Money for Nothing v. 94 ‘But Oil's the
stuff, and if you want to part with any of that Silver River of
yours, Tom,’ he said, ‘pass it across this desk and write your own
ticket.’
....
Wiktionary:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/write_one%27s_own_ticket
write one's own ticket
(idiomatic) To be empowered to choose whatever job, financial
arrangement, or course of action one desires.
1925, "Offers of 15 to 1 on Walker Go Begging," New York Times,
3 Nov., p. 2:
Mr. DeChadenedes said that any one wishing to back the Republican
candidate could write his own ticket and name his own price.
Neither dictionary suggests any origin for the phrase.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Jerry Friedman
> On Saturday, August 28, 1999 2:00:00 AM UTC-5, Richard Fontana wrote:
>> Previously, on alt.usage.english, Stevie Wonder said:
>>> Does ANYONE have any idea where this phrase originated? Is it just a
>>> good ol' Southern phrase, or does it have a wider scope?
>>
>> It's definitely not just Southern.
>>
>>
>> RF
>
>
> As to an origin,
> I wonder if it doesn't refer to the formal group dances that people in Western society traditionally did in the 19th Century. At balls, etc. All the songs and dances-- that would occur during the evening are determined beforehand, and a young woman would enter the evening equipped with a printed dance-card; the card would list all the evening's dances in succession-- Gigue, Quadrille, Schottische, Rondo, etc.---
cards were used for pair dances such as waltzes and mazurkas as well as
for group dances.
> and a woman would fill in blanks, next to each dance, the man with whom she has promised to dance that musicalpiece. The richer and more independent the woman, the more she could freely choose the men with whom she would dance; her partners would not be prescribed for her by society's elders. She could "write her own ticket"... freely decide how her evening would progress, and with whom.
--
Jerry Friedman
Mark Brader
> to write one's own ticket : to be able to stipulate one's own
> conditions, to be in an advantageous position. colloq.
(whether by train, boat, or other vehicle). You've earned the right
to fill in whatever "destination" you like.
--
Mark Brader "I am taking what you write in the spirit in
Toronto which it is intended. That's the problem."
m...@vex.net -- Tony Cooper
Richard Tobin
>It seems obvious to me that it refers to tickets for transportation
>(whether by train, boat, or other vehicle). You've earned the right
>to fill in whatever "destination" you like.
such as one that gives you admission to some event. Or it could be
a translation of "carte blanche".
-- Richard
Jack Campin
>> dances that people in Western society traditionally did in the 19th
>> woman would enter the evening equipped with a printed dance-card;
> indicate that dance-cards existed at balls. They existed a dance halls
> as they were the way the women were paid. It's possible, but for
> example, there's no "dance card" in Jane Austen.
Dances (in Edinburgh at least) in Austen's time did have admission
tickets, but not "dance cards" with lists of partners. Not many
partner dances were done in Scotland anyway until the polka craze
arrived. One is reproduced here:
http://www.journeytoscotland.com/edinburgh-assembly-rooms-reopen
More:
http://www.capitalcollections.org.uk/index.php?a=SearchResults&key=RHsiRCI6IlwiQXNzZW1ibHkgUm9vbXNcIiBFeGhpYml0aW9uIGNvbnRhaW5zIHRoZXNlIGltYWdlcyIsIk4iOjc0LCJQIjp7InR5cGUiOiJmb3J3YXJkIiwicmVsYXRpb25faWQiOiIyIiwiaXRlbV9pZCI6IjI2MjU1In19&pg=1&WINID=1410739982342
I'd expect events for similar social classes in other parts of the
British Isles to work the same way. (In the 18th century, tickets
in Edinburgh often had NO PLAIDS printed on them to keep working
class women out).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
Tony Cooper
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>Okay, so one time? In band camp? rasput...@gmail.com <rasput...@gmail.com> was all, like:
> --> Fri, 12 Sep 2014 19:01:36 -0700 (PDT) <d68ad2b4-7db1-4408...@googlegroups.com>
>>> Previously, on alt.usage.english, Stevie Wonder said:
>>> > Does ANYONE have any idea where this phrase originated? Is it just a
>>> > good ol' Southern phrase, or does it have a wider scope?
>>>
>>> It's definitely not just Southern.
>>>
>>>
>>> RF
>
>
>> As to an origin, I wonder if it doesn't refer to the formal group
>> dances that people in Western society traditionally did in the 19th
>> Century. At balls, etc. All the songs and dances-- that would
>> occur during the evening are determined beforehand, and a young
>> woman would enter the evening equipped with a printed dance-card;
>
>indicate that dance-cards existed at balls. They existed a dance halls
>as they were the way the women were paid. It's possible, but for
>example, there's no "dance card" in Jane Austen.
can't find it now, but I have a sterling silver dance card that looks
very much like this:
http://tinyurl.com/p2kb3n6
The lady carrying this would have also carried a sterling silver
pencil. Each ivory leaf would represent a dance, and gentlemen would
write their name on a leaf. After the event, the writing would be
rubbed out.
There are several styles of dance cards similar to this. This one has
a hinged cover and the pencil fits into the object.
http://tinyurl.com/q6xnvgk
These were most definitely for formal dances and balls, not for dance
halls.
You are confusing "card" with something printed. "Dance card" is a
term that stands for an object, and the objects were quite elaborate.
Some were jewel-encrusted.
http://maggiandersen.blogspot.com/2012/05/more-on-dance-cards.html
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
Jack Campin
> tickets, but not "dance cards" with lists of partners. Not many
> partner dances were done in Scotland anyway until the polka craze
> arrived. One is reproduced here:
>
> http://www.journeytoscotland.com/edinburgh-assembly-rooms-reopen
>
> More:
>
> http://www.capitalcollections.org.uk/index.php?a=SearchResults&key=RHsiRCI6IlwiQXNzZW1ibHkgUm9vbXNcIiBFeGhpYml0aW9uIGNvbnRhaW5zIHRoZXNlIGltYWdlcyIsIk4iOjc0LCJQIjp7InR5cGUiOiJmb3J3YXJkIiwicmVsYXRpb25faWQiOiIyIiwiaXRlbV9pZCI6IjI2MjU1In19&pg=1&WINID=1410739982342
http://www.capitalcollections.org.uk/media.php?i=25957&t=2&p=7&dg=ab216a0e344abaa3c1fb2952a439e6dbf6e5a6d2&signature=z9OD_5Xrv-_RkzTkG5PbGyOVFaALAyy_S3FhENn6nqg
There is a full list of the 21 dances on the programme (type, name,
composer) but the layout doesn't allocate space for names of dancers,
even though six of them are couple dances.
Mark Brader
> It does, but many things "seem obvious" that are still not true.
Which, obviously, is why I didn't say it *is* obvious.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | And perhaps another sigquote for Mark, who
m...@vex.net | seems to be running low... --Steve Summit
charles
> Okay, so one time? In band camp? rasput...@gmail.com <rasput...@gmail.com> was all, like:
> --> Fri, 12 Sep 2014 19:01:36 -0700 (PDT) <d68ad2b4-7db1-4408...@googlegroups.com>
> >> Previously, on alt.usage.english, Stevie Wonder said:
> >> > Does ANYONE have any idea where this phrase originated? Is it just a
> >> > good ol' Southern phrase, or does it have a wider scope?
> >>
> >> It's definitely not just Southern.
> >>
> >>
> >> RF
> > As to an origin, I wonder if it doesn't refer to the formal group
> > dances that people in Western society traditionally did in the 19th
> > Century. At balls, etc. All the songs and dances-- that would
> > occur during the evening are determined beforehand, and a young
> > woman would enter the evening equipped with a printed dance-card;
> indicate that dance-cards existed at balls. They existed a dance halls
> as they were the way the women were paid. It's possible, but for
> example, there's no "dance card" in Jane Austen.
with payment.
--
From KT24
Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18
CDB
Mark Brader:
>>> It seems obvious to me that it refers to tickets for
>>> transportation
"Lewis":
>> It does, but many things "seem obvious" that are still not true.
> Which, obviously, is why I didn't say it *is* obvious.
are about a dozen examples from the nineteenth to the early twentieth
century that use the phrase for an official or semi-official document
issued to manual labourers, especially dock workers, who are taken on
for work. That possibility feels right to me.
Mike L
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>Okay, so one time? In band camp? charles <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> was all, like:
> --> Mon, 15 Sep 2014 08:01:13 +0100 <5447692a...@charleshope.demon.co.uk>
Perfectly true. But let there be no doubt that Tony's post tells it
like it was (no doubt sometimes even "is", but I've never been invited
to such a knees-up).
"Write your own ticket" seems to me an invitation, not to a waltz, but
to "write your own cheque". "Ticket" is, I suppose, mainly a nautical
expression for a bill of payment due - on ships, a "slop ticket" falls
due at the end of a voyage - but I remember getting stuff in the
village and being asked "Do you want it to go on your dad's ticket?"
And of course a "price ticket" is familiar enough even in these POS
days.
--
Mike.