Who else says "drawRing" for "drawing"
Ash Nallawalla
In Australia and NZ some people pronounce "drawing" as "drawring". Where
did this originate, given that these people can say "snowing" without
any problem :-)
--
Managing Editor, PC Update; Vice-President, Melb PC
Director, Association of Personal Computer User Groups
Chris Norton
In article <ATP2xAe...@home.melbpc.org.au>, a...@home.melbpc.org.au
says...
>
>In Australia and NZ some people pronounce "drawing" as "drawring".
>Where did this originate, given that these people can say "snowing"
>without any problem :-)
It is a common pronunciation in and around London (England). It's
the same with 'gnawing'.
Chris Norton
alan auerbach F
I will be delighted to change the "no responses" state of your posting.
In 1734, a group of natives, or Originals, were learning the English
alphabet from a group of convicts. The Original Elder, Walanobangmebum
(literal translation: don't push my tush) wanted to be listed first
in the small dictionary that the convicts translated for them.
So Wally, as he was called, decreed that they should be
known not as Originals but as Aboriginals, so as to be on the first page.
Not having paper and pencil, they drew out the letters with a stick in
the sand. This they called a "draw ring," which pronunciation was
adopted by the convicts. Thank you for asking.
--
Al.
Joseph C Fineman
It happens in the U.S. too -- I think particularly in New England.
(The very idear of it!) I think the technical term is "intrusive r".
--
Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
495 Pleasant St., #1 (617) 324-6899
Malden, MA 02148
Aaron J. Dinkin
> In Australia and NZ some people pronounce "drawing" as "drawring". Where
> did this originate, given that these people can say "snowing" without
> any problem :-)
Despite your smiley, I'll take your question seriously, 'coz I'm not
really sure what the smiley is referring to.
The /o/ in snowing is regularly diphthongized in Australia and NZ to [@U],
so the [U] can become a [w] semivowel when a suffix is added: [sn@wIN].
However, the vowel in "drawing", which I would call /A/ but in Oz and NZ
is probably /O/, is not diphthongized - so the choice is between having
two vowels next to each other with nothing in between, or creating an
epenthetic semivowel and sticking it between them.
帰aron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Rainer Thonnes
In article <ATP2xAe...@home.melbpc.org.au>,
a...@home.melbpc.org.au (Ash Nallawalla) writes:
> In Australia and NZ some people pronounce "drawing" as "drawring". Where
> did this originate, given that these people can say "snowing" without
> any problem :-)
It's not the same problem. The 'w' in "drawing" just modifies the 'a' into
a different sound, to which "-ing" is then appended. Maybe they feel
uncomfortable both with gliding from the 'aw' to the 'i' (as in "boing!"),
and also with detaching the syllables, and are at a loss trying to find
a happy mid-way point.
The 'w' in "snowing" is more of a vowel, making "owi", I suppose, a triphthong.
This vowel 'w' is apparently easy to glide into (from the 'o') and out of
(to the 'i') for them.
Aaron J. Dinkin
My mother does, for one. Does anyone pronounce it as anything even vaguely
approximating "droing"?
Chris Melluish
In article <ATP2xAe...@home.melbpc.org.au>,
a...@home.melbpc.org.au (Ash Nallawalla) wrote:
>In Australia and NZ some people pronounce "drawing" as "drawring". Where
>did this originate, given that these people can say "snowing" without
>any problem :-)
>
>
I come from South London.
--
Chris Melluish
Gareth Williams
Thus spake aaron_j...@fourd.com (Aaron J. Dinkin) :
+My mother does, for one. Does anyone pronounce it as anything even vaguely
+approximating "droing"?
+
yup
regards
Gareth Williams <g...@fmode.demon.co.uk>
Sue Eltingh
a...@home.melbpc.org.au (Ash Nallawalla) wrote:
>In Australia and NZ some people pronounce "drawing" as "drawring". Where
>did this originate, given that these people can say "snowing" without
>any problem :-)
Probably the same type of folks who live in (or near) Washington, D.C.
in the US and pronounce it as "WaRshington." It's certainly a
curiosity; I know of no others in the United States who pronounce the
city's name in that way.
Sue
Rob Pegoraro
In article <4rgs8p$4...@harst2.xs4all.nl>, selt...@harst2.xs4all.nl (Sue
Eltingh) wrote:
That's far from universal. Some call it "WaRshington"--in my limited
experience, mainly long-term white residents--but the more common
pronounciation is "Washnun." But still more people here call it "D.C." or
"the District" in everyday speech. (Gotta stand out from the tourists
somehow!)
ro...@cais.com ====================================================
Rob Pegoraro At work, I'm r...@twp.com, but
Washington, D.C., USA I'm only speaking for myself here
======================================== http://www.cais.com/robp/
Donnie Lee Waters
>Probably the same type of folks who live in (or near) Washington, D.C.
>in the US and pronounce it as "WaRshington." It's certainly a
>curiosity; I know of no others in the United States who pronounce the
>city's name in that way.
-- __ `--` _
' |__) (__| |~~ |~~ |_/ | /| | /| iampara ___ -(o) ___
' ' ' ' | .__| |__ |__ | \ |/ | |/ | graph ////\__|__/\\\\
' ' -Donnie Lee Waters UofL 175 |
' ' -dlwa...@homer.louisville.edu ! '|
Gregory Resch
I suspect some posters are mistaking a certain dialect heard around
"Warshington" Square, some 300 miles to the north, for the way people
around Washington, D.C., speak.
I can't speak from the knowing viewpoint of someone in, say, the
Netherlands; and my experience, from living "in (or near)" Washington, is
limited, too--only 27 years. Nevertheless, I think I can count on the
thumbs of one hand the number of local people I've heard say
"warshington".
As for calling Washington "the District" or "D.C.": Beginning in 1871 the
city of Washington became exactly the same, geographically, as the
District of Columbia. The District embraces Georgetown, what was then the
city of Washington, and the now-defunct County of Washington, which
altogether made up the part of the Federal district lying on the Maryland
side of the Potomac. (The Virginia portion was retroceded earlier; it
became Arlington County.)
But people around here generally don't use "Washington" to mean "the
District" *identically* any more than, say, the British of today use the
term "the City" to mean London. (An imperfect analogy, I admit.) For
example, Washingtonians pay taxes to the District of Columbia, not
to "Washington." And then, although there is a District of Columbia Fire
Department, there is no "District of Columbia Police Department"! (No,
no; that's not why you see such appalling things about Washington on the
telly--since 1871 there's been a Metropolitan Police Department, with
jurisdiction over Washington, Georgetown, and the rest of the District.)
I can't explain precisely how (we) locals choose one term over another,
except that there's always a subtle ring of unseemliness when someone uses
a non-reg construction. Thus its devotees may want to call it the
"D.C. Hard Rock Cafe," but to anyone else here that sounds not quite
right, as if it belonged to the city government (*never* called the
"Washington government," for obvious reasons).
Americans in general refer to their national capital as "Washington."
They're constantly bemused to see "D.C." listed as outstripping all States
in household and per-capita income; it looks like some sort of statistical
fluke. (It isn't.)
_______________________________________________________
ro...@cais.com (Rob Pegoraro) writes:
> In article <4rgs8p$4...@harst2.xs4all.nl>, selt...@harst2.xs4all.nl (Sue
> Eltingh) wrote:
> >a...@home.melbpc.org.au (Ash Nallawalla) wrote:
> >>In Australia and NZ some people pronounce "drawing" as "drawring"....
> >
> >Probably the same type of folks who live in (or near) Washington, D.C.
> >in the US and pronounce it as "WaRshington." It's certainly a
> >curiosity; I know of no others in the United States who pronounce the
> >city's name in that way.
>
> That's far from universal. Some call it "WaRshington"--in my limited
> experience, mainly long-term white residents--but the more common
> pronounciation is "Washnun." But still more people here call it "D.C." or
> "the District" in everyday speech....
>
> ro...@cais.com ====================================================
> Rob Pegoraro At work, I'm r...@twp.com, but
> Washington, D.C., USA I'm only speaking for myself here
> ======================================== http://www.cais.com/robp/
--
Lawrence Gold
Donnie Lee Waters (DLWA...@ulkyvm.louisville.edu) wrote:
: >Probably the same type of folks who live in (or near) Washington, D.C.
: >in the US and pronounce it as "WaRshington." It's certainly a
: >curiosity; I know of no others in the United States who pronounce the
: >city's name in that way.
: Southern Kentucky.
Joseph, Utah.
Bill Fisher
In article <177BB9D93S...@ulkyvm.louisville.edu>, DLWA...@ulkyvm.louisville.edu (Donnie Lee Waters) writes:
> >Probably the same type of folks who live in (or near) Washington, D.C.
> >in the US and pronounce it as "WaRshington." It's certainly a
> >curiosity; I know of no others in the United States who pronounce the
> >city's name in that way.
>
> Southern Kentucky.
>
came up from Kentucky. Now I suspect that it's generally
spread throughout the Midland dialect area, but not spread
very thickly.
- billf
Peter Moylan
Ash Nallawalla (a...@home.melbpc.org.au) wrote:
>In Australia and NZ some people pronounce "drawing" as "drawring". Where
>did this originate, given that these people can say "snowing" without
>any problem :-)
Quite simple, really.
"snow" rhymes with "blow", therefore "snowing" rhymes with "blowing".
"draw" rhymes with "snore", therefore "drawing" rhymes with "snoring".
I suspect you'd find the same in any dialect where
"or" and "aw" have the same pronunciation.
It's not a question of what we're able to say. I'm quite
capable of pronouncing "drawing" with a "w" sound; it's
just that it would sound unnatural to me if I did.
--
Peter Moylan pe...@ee.newcastle.edu.au
http://www.eng.newcastle.edu.au/ee/Moylan.html
OS/2 freeware list at
http://www.eng.newcastle.edu.au/ee/Moylan/os2/os2info.html
Michael Hardy
In article <4shr1o$n...@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au>,
Peter Moylan <pe...@tesla.newcastle.edu.au> wrote:
>Ash Nallawalla (a...@home.melbpc.org.au) wrote:
>>In Australia and NZ some people pronounce "drawing" as "drawring". Where
>>did this originate, given that these people can say "snowing" without
>>any problem :-)
>
>Quite simple, really.
> "snow" rhymes with "blow", therefore "snowing" rhymes with "blowing".
> "draw" rhymes with "snore", therefore "drawing" rhymes with "snoring".
>
>I suspect you'd find the same in any dialect where
>"or" and "aw" have the same pronunciation.
>
>It's not a question of what we're able to say. I'm quite
>capable of pronouncing "drawing" with a "w" sound; it's
>just that it would sound unnatural to me if I did.
I'm not sure that pronuouncing it with a "w" sound is what was
being proposed as the alternative. To me "snore" has an "r" sound (and of
course, no "w" sound), but neither "draw" nor "drawing" has a "w" sound
(an second "r" sound other than the one immediately after the "d").
Many New Yorkers also insert an unspelled "r" into "drawing" and
also put "r" sounds into other places where the letter "r" does not occur
in the spelling (so that "the idea is" becomes "the idear is"). As far as
I can tell this is only done by people who also _drop_ the "r" sound in
some words in which the "r" appears (so that "New Yorker" becomes "New
Yohkuh" (I'm spelling the schwa sound, as in the first syllable of "about",
as -uh)). I once heard it explained as "over-correction". I.e., having
dropped the "r" from some words, they try to correct this omission by
putting in extra r's. (Like most English-speaking people (I suspect), but
unlike many New Yorkers and New Englanders and unlike speakers of "Received
Standard English", I was brought up pronouncing those r's that are spelled
and no others, so to me inserting the "r" into "drawing" sounds
unnatural.) As for "snowing", I suspect that the reason no "r" gets
inserted into this is that it _does_ have a "w" sound, where "draw" has
none.
Mike Hardy
Michael Hardy
ha...@stat.umn.edu
Peter Moylan
The "posted and e-mailed" phenomenon means that I've seen some
contributions to this thread that haven't yet appeared on my
news server; but I'll respond as if they had.
Ash Nallawalla (a...@home.melbpc.org.au) wrote:
>A related symptom seen here is the number of people
> who write "draw" for "drawer".
to which Michael Hardy replied:
>I've never seen that one, but it seems plausible, given what Peter
>Moylan says, that non-rhotic speakers of English might not pronounce
>"drawer" differently from "draw".
By coincidence, I noticed that this very weekend. I've been
shopping for furniture, and found two different shops that
were selling "Vanity's with six draws".
["Vanity" is the current Australian builder's jargon for
the piece of furniture that supports the bathroom sink.]
That caught me by surprise, and not just because of the
apostrophe. To me (a non-rhotic Australian speaker),
"draw" and "drawer" are quite distinct words.
In examining my pronunciation, I find that I pronounce
"drawer" as somewhere between "drowa" and "droa". There
are definitely two syllables, but the second is so muted
that it would be easy to think of this as a one-syllable
word.
Meanwhile, I've re-examined my pronunciation of
"drawing", and I've found myself saying "dro?ing", where
the ? stands for a sound that's somewhere intermediate
- if you can imagine such a thing - between "w" and "r".
It's a little like the initial sound of "wring", but
said so lightly that you have to listen hard to be sure
that there's a consonant there at all.
Keith C. Ivey
pe...@fourier.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan) wrote:
>Meanwhile, I've re-examined my pronunciation of
>"drawing", and I've found myself saying "dro?ing", where
>the ? stands for a sound that's somewhere intermediate
>- if you can imagine such a thing - between "w" and "r".
>It's a little like the initial sound of "wring", but
>said so lightly that you have to listen hard to be sure
>that there's a consonant there at all.
Are you saying that the initial sound of "wring" is different
from the initial sound of "ring"? That would clear up the
"copyright"/"copywrite" confusion being discussed in another
thread. I've never heard of a dialect (in Modern English) that
pronounced "wr" as anything other than /r/, however, so I'm
inclined to believe you're being misled by the spelling into
imagining a distinction.
[posted and mailed]
Keith C. Ivey <kci...@cpcug.org> Washington, DC
Contributing Editor/Webmaster
The Editorial Eye <http://www.eei-alex.com/eye/>
Ofamily
In article <4sue90$2...@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au>,
pe...@fourier.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan) writes:
>That caught me by surprise, and not just because of the
>apostrophe. To me (a non-rhotic Australian speaker),
>"draw" and "drawer" are quite distinct words.
I can't find this in my references; what's a "non-rhotic" speaker?
Mark Israel
> I can't find this in my references; what's a "non-rhotic" speaker?
From the FAQ:
# rhotic vs non-rhotic, intrusive "r"
# -----------------------------------
#
# A rhotic speaker is one who pronounces as a consonant postvocalic
# "r", i.e. the "r" after a vowel in words like "world" /wV"rld/. A
# nonrhotic speaker either does not pronounce the "r" at all /wV"ld/
# or pronounces it as a schwa /wV"@ld/. British Received
# Pronunciation (RP) and many other dialects of English are nonrhotic.
#
# Many nonrhotic speakers (including RP speakers, but excluding
# most nonrhotic speakers in the southern U.S.) use a "linking r":
# they don't pronounce "r" in "for" by itself /fO/, but they do
# pronounce the first "r" in "for ever" /fO 'rEv@/. Linking "r"
# differs from French liaison in that the former happens in any
# phonetically appropriate context, whereas the latter also needs
# the right syntactic context.
#
# A further development of "linking r" is "intrusive r".
# Intrusive-r speakers, because the vowels in "law" (which they
# pronounce the same as "lore") and "idea" (which they pronounce
# to rhyme with "fear") are identical for them to vowels spelled
# with "r", intrude an r in such phrases as "law [r]and order" and
# "The idea [r]of it!" They do NOT intrude an [r] after vowels that
# are never spelled with an "r". Some people blanch at intrusive r,
# but most RP speakers now use it.
--
mis...@scripps.edu Mark Israel
Want a copy of the alt.usage.english FAQ? Send me e-mail!