Jewish names in Germany.
Rushtown
have "lovely" translations. Why? Were these names
made up?
Garry J. Vass
<rush...@aol.com> writes
>German Jewish names like Rosenthal or Blumenthal
>have "lovely" translations. Why? Were these names
>made up?
assumed so as to escape assignment. 'Rothschild' (='red shield, in the
Jewish Quarter of Frankfurt), for example, being one of the latter. The
Royal Academy has a most excellent publication about this, which I've
loaned to someone.
Mandelbrot = almond bread
Kirschenbaum = cherry tree
Fuchstanz = fox dance = fox trot
--
Garry J. Vass
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
According to some accounts, one had to pay for better-sounding names.
Penurious Jews were saddled with insults like "Holzkopf" and "Esel"--
names they generally changed at the first opportunity.
(Though not always. I've often wondered if this was the source of my
friend Ms. Kussmaul's name.)
--
Daniel "Da" von Brighoff /\ Dilettanten
(de...@midway.uchicago.edu) /__\ erhebt Euch
/____\ gegen die Kunst!
Joseph C Fineman
>According to some accounts, one had to pay for better-sounding names.
>Penurious Jews were saddled with insults like "Holzkopf" and "Esel"--
>names they generally changed at the first opportunity.
The Katzenellenbogens, I believe, are rather proud of their heritage
from that era.
It is said that a husband who borrowed money for a handsome bribe came
home with the name "Schweiss". "Is that the best you could do for all
that money?" asks his wife. "Shut up", he replies. "We own the most
expensive w in Germany."
--- Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
||: Deficient contact with reality is called mania. Excessive :||
||: contact with reality is called depression. :||
Robert Lieblich
>
> German Jewish names like Rosenthal or Blumenthal
> have "lovely" translations. Why? Were these names
> made up?
I don't understand. What German surname could possibly translate as
"lovely"?
Bob Lieblich
James Follett
Ga...@gvass.demon.co.uk "Garry J. Vass" writes:
>Fuchstanz = fox dance = fox trot
Surely fuchstanz are what an Essex girl ends up with on her
clothing on a Saturday night?
--
James Follett -- novelist http://www.davew.demon.co.uk
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
David Nebenzahl
> In article <19990114005614...@ng19.aol.com>, Rushtown
> <rush...@aol.com> writes
> >have "lovely" translations. Why? Were these names
> >made up?
> assumed so as to escape assignment. 'Rothschild' (='red shield, in the
> Jewish Quarter of Frankfurt), for example, being one of the latter. The
> Royal Academy has a most excellent publication about this, which I've
> loaned to someone.
>
> Mandelbrot = almond bread
> Kirschenbaum = cherry tree
Finally, a thread which relates directly to my own name, which I've always
believed (until just recently[1]) is a "German Jewish" name, whatever that
means.
I actually have no idea what my own name means. Maybe you can shed some light
on its possible meaning and provenance: as near as I've been able to figure,
it deconstructs to "next number":
neben: near, neighbor?
zahl: count?
(Or as we sometimes jokingly say, we Nebenzahls are "next to royalty", taking
"count" in its other sense.)
[1] I've been informed recently (a couple of years ago) that our name is
actually not German but from somewhere in or near the old Austro-Hungarian
Empire, possibly the Ukraine, the old kingdom of Galicia or Hungary itself.
This from someone who has done fairly extensive research on the Nebenzahl
genealogy, and whose own name (Nemes) was supposedly changed and Magyar-ized
from Nebenzahl.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> German Jewish names like Rosenthal or Blumenthal have "lovely"
> translations. Why? Were these names made up?
When I was in Israel, someone commented that my last name (which is
misspelled German (not Yiddish) for "cherry tree") was "very poetic".
I always just assumed that it meant that an ancestor owned an orchard
or lived near the old cherry tree or something. I now wonder whether
it is actually a reference to something in German literature.
Anybody?
(Note for those following another thread: I have just caught myself
typing "whether" without an "or" in sight, and it doesn't sound at all
awkward. I will have to try to analyze this inconstency.)
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Its like grasping the difference
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |between what one usually considers
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |a 'difficult' problem, and what
|*is* a difficult problem. The day
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |one understands *why* counting all
(650)857-7572 |the molecules in the Universe isn't
|difficult...there's the leap.
| Tina Marie Holmboe
Robert Lieblich
>
> In article <369E75...@erols.com>,
> Robert Lieblich <lieb...@erols.com> wrote:
> >Rushtown wrote:
> >>
> >> have "lovely" translations. Why? Were these names
> >> made up?
> >
> >"lovely"?
>
> "Schoen".
If this keeps up I'll have to add smileys. Or find a German thesaurus
and verify it for myself.
Der Liebliche Herr
P&DSchultz
> <...>
> I always just assumed that it meant that an ancestor owned an orchard
> or lived near the old cherry tree or something. I now wonder whether
> it is actually a reference to something in German literature.
> Anybody?
Some of these names get twisted around. I have an aquaintance named
Rashbaum, who assumed his name had something to do with a tree. But
research revealed that the name had been Rashbam, an acronym (in the
Jewish custom) for some illustrious rabbi ancestor (say, Rabbi Shmuel
ben Moshe or something), and the Ellis Island clerk had "regularized"
it.
//P. Schultz
Kathy Brunetti -- see sig
Fineman) wrote:
> It is said that a husband who borrowed money for a handsome bribe came
> home with the name "Schweiss". "Is that the best you could do for all
> that money?" asks his wife. "Shut up", he replies. "We own the most
> expensive w in Germany."
>
The joke I heard is
Herr Schmeiss and Herr Schutz are talking.
Schmeiss: "you don't know what it cost to have the "M" added!"
Schutz: "and you don't know what it cost to have it taken out!"
scheiss=shit
schmutz=filth, with a connotation of excrement
--
Kathy Brunetti
The From is a fake, courtesy of my ISP. Try this one that humans can read:
kbrunet at ns.net
K1912
[...]
>(Note for those following another thread: I have just caught myself
>typing "whether" without an "or" in sight, and it doesn't sound at all
>awkward. I will have to try to analyze this inconstency.)
>
I noticed and was going to bring it to your intention if you hadn't noticed it
yourself. <g>
george
K1912
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
> Finally, a thread which relates directly to my own name, which I've always
> believed (until just recently[1]) is a "German Jewish" name, whatever that
> means.
A "German-Jewish" name is a Jewish surname of German origin
(original, Yiddish, misspelled, or anglicized). Examples: Nebenzahl,
Kirschenbaum (or Yiddish Kershnboym, -boim), Birnbaum; Fuchs, Wolf,
Adler, Hirsch, -feld, -man, -berg; Berlin, Wiener (Weiner, Viner);
Deutsch, Doytsh, Unger, Russ, Jud; Mandelbrot, Weissbrot, Weisbord;
Rosental, -thal, -berg, -blum, -bloom; Blumenthal, -berg, -stein;
Goldman, -zweig, -hand; Silber, Silbergeld, Silversteen, -stone
(=Silberstein); Feinsilber (=Finesilver), Feingold, Goldfein; Diamant,
Finkelstein, Edelstein, -shtain, Rubin, Rubenstien.
More: Perlman, -stein, -mutter; Morgentau, -thau, -stern; Klein
(=Kline, Cline), Gross, Dick, Kurtz, Schwarz, Weiss, Lustich, Witzig,
Süss, Lieblich, Gutmann, Edel, Adelman; Schenker (=Shanker), Metzger,
Schreiber, Schuster, Lehrer, Dintenfass, Dreyfus; Fensterscheib,
Rindfleisch, Kalbfleisch, Kanalgitter, Eselkopf, Ochsenschwanz,
Hundshaut, Abzug, Greenspan, Eisendrath, Goldfisch, Höllenstein,
Wanzenknicker.
Then there are German-Jewish names that were originally Hebrew but
were translated into German or adapted to look German: Freud (from
Simkha), Fried, -man (from Shalom), Hirsch (from Naftali), or Löb,
Löwenberg (from ~ Levy). Some French Jews translated their German names
into French, e.g., Cerf (from German "Hirsch" = hart) or Neuville (half
German, half French) from German "Neustadt."
A Polish-, Russian-, or Hungarian-Jewish name is derived from P, R or
H words and names: Krakowiak, Czeresnia, Portnoyskaya, Horvathzohn,
Szabó, Fekete.
> I actually have no idea what my own name means. Maybe you can shed some light
> on its possible meaning and provenance: as near as I've been able to figure,
> it deconstructs to "next number":
>
> neben: near, neighbor?
> zahl: count?
>
> (Or as we sometimes jokingly say, we Nebenzahls are "next to royalty", taking
> "count" in its other sense.)
>
> [1] I've been informed recently (a couple of years ago) that our name is
> actually not German but from somewhere in or near the old Austro-Hungarian
> Empire, possibly the Ukraine, the old kingdom of Galicia or Hungary itself.
> This from someone who has done fairly extensive research on the Nebenzahl
> genealogy, and whose own name (Nemes) was supposedly changed and Magyar-ized
> from Nebenzahl.
Wrong. The Hungarian name "Nemes" (pronounced like German
"Nämäsch"or IPA /'n&m&S/) cannot possibly be derived or translated from
the German "Nebenzahl." Hung. Nemes means "noble, precious" and is a
"typical Jewish" name, as are its related German-Jewish forms Adel,
-man, Edel, -man "noble man, nobleman."
Your name has puzzled me ever since I first saw it. It's 100% German
all right and has two meanings, but it's most unusual and rare. BTW,
German-Jewish surnames are found throughout the original
Austro-Hungarian empire and in neighboring regions.
"Nebenzahl" consists of two German words, _neben_ and _Zahl_.
Literally, it means "next-to/adjoining number" or "minor/subsidiary
number" (as opposed to 'major number' = "Hauptzahl"). However, there is
no such word in German as _Nebenzahl_, unless it is a highly uncommon
mathematical term I've never heard or seen, and thus unlikely to be used
as a surname.
The second and to me most convincing possibility is that "zahl" is a
Hungarian-influenced spelling variant of German _Saal_ ("hall, large
room"), indicating the initial voiced "s-" in German and spelled the
Hungarian way as "z." Thus, the original German/Austrian "Nebensaal"
was deliberately re-spelled "Nebenzahl" by your Hungarian ancestors, in
order to avoid the wrong pronunciation by the Magyars as "Nebenschaal'
(Hung. "s" is pronounced "sh").
There is indeed a German word _Nebensaal_ (similar to _Nebenzimmer_),
which means "adjoining room." For instance, in a large hotel, there is
the _Saal_ (the large hall for dining and dancing) and a _Nebensaal_ (a
smaller hall or nearby adjoining room).
Well, David Smallhall or Nearhall, why would one burden a family with
this "silly-sounding" name? The Austrian authorities in 1782 ordered
the Jews under their jurisdiction to get "real" names (no more thousands
of confusing Moses ben Abraham and Abraham ben Moses and Moses ben
Moses, but first names and "real" last names). Those Jews who complied
with the order could pick their own nice-sounding German names (see
above), while the stubborn or religious ones had names assigned that
ranged from pedestrian and silly to insulting, and nasty (see the last
13 names above).
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Editor & Publisher, MALEDICTA
Santa Rosa, CA 95402, USA
http://www.sonic.net/maledicta/
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
> de...@midway.uchicago.edu (D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff) writes:
>
> >According to some accounts, one had to pay for better-sounding names.
> >Penurious Jews were saddled with insults like "Holzkopf" and "Esel"--
> >names they generally changed at the first opportunity.
It was not so much poverty as stubbornness and religious fervor
that kept some Jews from obeying the decrees of 1782 and 1812-13 to
assume surnames; *these* were the ones whom the Austrian, Bavarian and
Prussian officials gave silly, obscene or nasty names which, in some
cases, could be changed to nicer or Romantic ones by bribing the
bureaucrats. (See my other, related post.)
> The Katzenellenbogens, I believe, are rather proud of their heritage
> from that era.
While this surname sounds silly in literal translation ("cat's
elbow"), it's essentially not different from such family names as
"Amsterdam," "Frankfurter," or "Landau": it's a place name. The
Katzenellenbogens came from a small place in Hesse (Taunus region) named
Katzenelnbogen.
> It is said that a husband who borrowed money for a handsome bribe came
> home with the name "Schweiss". "Is that the best you could do for all
> that money?" asks his wife. "Shut up", he replies. "We own the most
> expensive w in Germany."
A similar story is reported by Mencken (from his source, _A History
of Surnames of the British Isles_, N.Y. 1931, pp. 213ff), where Herr
Schweisshund complains that he had to give half of his wealth to buy the
"w" from the police. ["Schweisshund" = bloodhound; "Scheisshund" = lit.,
"shit-dog"; despicable son-of-a-bitch].
For an excellent introduction to (Jewish) surnames, see the chapter
"Proper Names in America" in H.L. Mencken's _The American Language_;
e.g., in the abridged edition by Raven McDavid, N.Y.: Knopf, 1971, pp.
572-701.
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Hey, Bob, I looked at the London AUE Boink pictures and think you
are lieblich *and* schön. Of course, your wife is schöner, but probably
not as lieblich (divorce lawyer, you know).
By the way, who's that dorky young fellow sitting next to you? He
looks as if someone had just yelled "Cunnilingus!"
Garry J. Vass
<am...@sonic.net> writes
>
> The second and to me most convincing possibility is that "zahl" is a
>Hungarian-influenced spelling variant of German _Saal_ ("hall, large
>room"), indicating the initial voiced "s-" in German and spelled the
I had always assumed that it was a corruption of 'valley', as in
'adjacent valley', rather than 'hall'. But that's only my two groschen
tossed in.
--
Garry J. Vass
M.J.Powell
>> The Katzenellenbogens, I believe, are rather proud of their heritage
>> from that era.
>
> While this surname sounds silly in literal translation ("cat's
>elbow"), it's essentially not different from such family names as
>"Amsterdam," "Frankfurter," or "Landau": it's a place name. The
>Katzenellenbogens came from a small place in Hesse (Taunus region) named
>Katzenelnbogen.
Is it really by the sea?
Mike
>
George F. Hardy
> German Jewish names like Rosenthal or Blumenthal
> have "lovely" translations. Why? Were these names
> made up?
The aim was to give Jews identifiable Jewish names. Jews were
given "colors", including gold and silver. Jews had to pay for
the names. The more they paid, the nicer the name. Some Jews
refused to pay, which accouts for names like Mauskopf.
GFH
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Robert Lieblich <lieb...@erols.com> wrote:
>D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff wrote:
>>
>> In article <369E75...@erols.com>,
>> Robert Lieblich <lieb...@erols.com> wrote:
>> >Rushtown wrote:
>> >>
>> >> have "lovely" translations. Why? Were these names
>> >> made up?
>> >
>> >"lovely"?
>>
>> "Schoen".
>
>If this keeps up I'll have to add smileys. Or find a German thesaurus
>and verify it for myself.
Maybe in the process, you'll find some true friends.
a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca
<lieb...@erols.com> wrote:
>Rushtown wrote:
>>
>> German Jewish names like Rosenthal or Blumenthal
>> have "lovely" translations. Why? Were these names
>> made up?
>
>I don't understand. What German surname could possibly translate as
>"lovely"?
>
>Bob Lieblich
One certainly wonders how much was involved in the bribe,
Liebling. and -- considering the *choice* of name -- in what
currency.
Nikos Sarantakos
Gund v. Brighoff) wrote:
>In article <x2vK7OAS...@gvass.demon.co.uk>,
>Garry J. Vass <Ga...@gvass.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>In article <19990114005614...@ng19.aol.com>, Rushtown
>><rush...@aol.com> writes
>>>German Jewish names like Rosenthal or Blumenthal
>>>have "lovely" translations. Why? Were these names
>>>made up?
>>Yes. Many were 'assigned' in the 18th/19th centuries, others were
>>assumed so as to escape assignment. 'Rothschild' (='red shield, in the
>>Jewish Quarter of Frankfurt), for example, being one of the latter. The
>>Royal Academy has a most excellent publication about this, which I've
>>loaned to someone.
>
>According to some accounts, one had to pay for better-sounding names.
>Penurious Jews were saddled with insults like "Holzkopf" and "Esel"--
>names they generally changed at the first opportunity.
I know this becomes off-topic, but I would be very interested to
know what exactly is this "assignment" process.
And, as a further question, were there German names "reserved" for
Gentiles?
Thanks
Nikos
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
According to the _dtv-Atlas : Namenkunde_, only in West Galicia can it be
proven that names were assigned as opposed to selected by their bearers
and merely registered by the authorities. This registration coincided
with emancipation, which took place at different times in different Ger-
man states.
>And, as a further question, were there German names "reserved" for
>Gentiles?
I've never heard of restrictions being places on the types of names Jews
were allowed to adopt.
For more on this, I recommend Dietz' _Der Name als Stigma_ (English trans-
lation: _The stigma of names_). It's the most exhaustive treatment of
the topic I know of.
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
You may be confusing _Saal_ with _Tal_ (older spelling: _Thal_),
which means 'valley,' as in "Rosenthal" = valley of roses, Rosedale.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> A "German-Jewish" name is a Jewish surname of German origin
> (original, Yiddish, misspelled, or anglicized). Examples: Nebenzahl,
> Kirschenbaum (or Yiddish Kershnboym, -boim),
I don't think I've ever seen evidence of either "-boym" or "-boim" in
my family (or elsewhere for that matter).
> Some French Jews translated their German names into French, e.g.,
> Cerf (from German "Hirsch" = hart) or Neuville (half German, half
> French) from German "Neustadt."
Which reminds me of the old joke:
A: "Pierre La Fontaine!" Who does he think he is? His father was
plain old Morris Spritzwasser.
B: Yeah, well I knew *his* father when he was just Moishe the
Pischer.
> Well, David Smallhall or Nearhall, why would one burden a family with
> this "silly-sounding" name? The Austrian authorities in 1782 ordered
> the Jews under their jurisdiction to get "real" names (no more thousands
> of confusing Moses ben Abraham and Abraham ben Moses and Moses ben
> Moses,
Has custom changed since then? "Moses ben Moses" would be pretty much
impossible among Ashkenazi Jews these days, as it is considered bad
form and bad luck to name a child after a living relative. (The
notion is that the angel of death might come after the older one, get
confused by the name, and take the child instead.) When we decided to
give Josh the middle Hebrew name "Zvi", after Susan's recently
deceased grandfather, we had to make sure to ask my grandfather's
permission, as it turns out that it was his birth name, too. (Susan's
Grandpa Henry was "Zvi Heinrich"; my Grandpa Harry was "Zvi Hersch".)
Sephardic Jews tend to name after living relatives (and I believe that
there are customs for who you're named after based on birth order),
but I wouldn't expect many of them in Austria back then (or now, for
that matter).
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |All tax revenue is the result of
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |holding a gun to somebody's head.
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Not paying taxes is against the law.
|If you don't pay your taxes, you'll
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |be fined. If you don't pay the fine,
(650)857-7572 |you'll be jailed. If you try to
|escape from jail, you'll be shot.
| P.J. O'Rourke
Skitt
George F. Hardy wrote in message <369f5...@news.rlc.net>...says:
>
>> German Jewish names like Rosenthal or Blumenthal
>> have "lovely" translations. Why? Were these names
>> made up?
>
>given "colors", including gold and silver. Jews had to pay for
>the names. The more they paid, the nicer the name. Some Jews
>refused to pay, which accouts for names like Mauskopf.
Come to think of it, the Jews in Latvia could be identified instantly by their
names (looks also). There was no possible doubt about a Jewish last name (even
first or given name) when one was seen. There was only one apartment in the
building I was brought up in that was occupied by a Jewish family. There was the
younger lady, a dentist, by the last name of Sternin, and the parents, the
Lubockis family. As a note, in Latvian, the "L" has a comma under it to have it
pronounced as "Lj" (as in "Ljubljana", if you know how that is said), and the
"c" and "k" are pronounced separately, as in "ts" and "k". Funny, what one
remembers from age ten, or is there more to it...?
--
Skitt http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/5537/
If you are posting a reply, please, do not email it. It just confuses me.
Jitze Couperus
<ev...@garrett.hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>
>When I was in Israel, someone commented that my last name (which is
>misspelled German (not Yiddish) for "cherry tree") was "very poetic".
>
>I always just assumed that it meant that an ancestor owned an orchard
>or lived near the old cherry tree or something. I now wonder whether
>it is actually a reference to something in German literature.
>Anybody?
>
And while you're researching that one - how about "Barenboim"
(sometimes Berenboim or Berenbohm). The closest I could guess
would be a Pear Tree, but maybe it isn't tree-related at all?
Jitze
---
If replying - first remove the .spam.filter from my address
K1912
[...]
>Hey, Bob, I looked at the London AUE Boink pictures and think you
>are lieblich *and* schön. Of course, your wife is schöner, but probably
>not as lieblich (divorce lawyer, you know).
>
> By the way, who's that dorky young fellow sitting next to you? He
>looks as if someone had just yelled "Cunnilingus!"
>
Looks to me as if he's listening for something, I don't know what, a sound of
some kind, not the sound of music, more like the sound of something collapsing
... yes, that's it, the inward sound of some kind of collapse--I got it! He's
still waiting for the sound of AUE's imminent implosion!
K1912
Festus van Landingham
Mimi Kahn wrote:
>On Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:23:46 -0500, "Skitt" <al...@myself.com> wrote:
>
>>Come to think of it, the Jews in Latvia could be identified instantly by their
>>names (looks also).
>
>Yeah, we all look alike. I look just like Lauren Bacall. So do all
>other Jewish women, including Goldie Hawn, Bette Midler, and the late
>Golda Meir.
I doubt Mimi. I believe Skitt. San Francisco should drop into the ocean.
--
Festus v.L.
Drop the "X" from my address to send me e-mail.
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
> "Reinhold (Rey) Aman" <am...@sonic.net> writes:
>
> > A "German-Jewish" name is a Jewish surname of German origin
> > (original, Yiddish, misspelled, or anglicized). Examples: Nebenzahl,
> > Kirschenbaum (or Yiddish Kershnboym, -boim),
> I don't think I've ever seen evidence of either "-boym" or "-boim" in
> my family (or elsewhere for that matter).
The famous conductor Daniel Barenboim spells his name as
"-boim."
I'm certain if you looked through telephone directories in the USA,
Canada, Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, Hungary, Romania,
Poland, Russia, Israel, Argentina, and other countries with many Jews,
you'll find other variants of your name meaning "cherry tree," including
"-boym," "-boim" and "-bam." The "-baum" variant is pure German, the
other three are Yiddish.
Also, the first part of your name exists in correct German,
misspelled German, dialects, and variants of Yiddish: Kirschen-,
Kirshen-, Kirschn-, Kirsch-, Kirsh, Kerschen-, Kerschn-, Kersch-,
Kersh-, Kerch-, Kirs-, Kers-, etc. You as a mathematician can calculate
all possible variants by combining the 4 versions of 'tree' with the 12
versions of 'cherry.' (A programmer could write a short program to whip
out all variants.)
Being named after a tree is a subset of "typical" German-Jewish
names: Kirschenbaum, Apfelbaum (Appelbaum, Eplboym) = apple tree,
Birnbaum = pear tree, Rosenbaum = rose tree, Feigenbaum = fig tree,
Taitelbaum = (? I forgot), Pflaumenbaum (Floymenboym) = plum tree,
Tannenbaum = fir tree, Mandelbaum = almond tree.
> > Some French Jews translated their German names into French, e.g.,
> > Cerf (from German "Hirsch" = hart) or Neuville (half German, half
> > French) from German "Neustadt."
> Which reminds me of the old joke:
>
> A: "Pierre La Fontaine!" Who does he think he is? His father was
> plain old Morris Spritzwasser.
> B: Yeah, well I knew *his* father when he was just Moishe the
> Pischer.
Funny. There are many name-related jokes told by Jews. Another
one is about a Jew who goes to the authorities to change his name.
"I vant to change my name, sir. Make it O'Grady, please.
-- "Weren't you here three weeks ago? You changed it from
'Goldregen' to 'Sullivan.' What's wrong with Sullivan?"
"Nothing. I just vant to change it to O'Grady, so when people ask me,
'What was your name *before*?' I can tell them, 'Sullivan'."
> > Well, David Smallhall or Nearhall, why would one burden a family with
> > this "silly-sounding" name? The Austrian authorities in 1782 ordered
> > the Jews under their jurisdiction to get "real" names (no more thousands
> > of confusing Moses ben Abraham and Abraham ben Moses and Moses ben
> > Moses,
> Has custom changed since then?
No, your explanation below is correct. The "Moses ben Moses" was a
last-minute addition, and I knew it was a poor example for which you (or
Aaron) would call me on the carpet.
> "Moses ben Moses" would be pretty much
> impossible among Ashkenazi Jews these days, as it is considered bad
> form and bad luck to name a child after a living relative. (The
> notion is that the angel of death might come after the older one, get
> confused by the name, and take the child instead.) When we decided to
> give Josh the middle Hebrew name "Zvi", after Susan's recently
> deceased grandfather, we had to make sure to ask my grandfather's
> permission, as it turns out that it was his birth name, too. (Susan's
> Grandpa Henry was "Zvi Heinrich"; my Grandpa Harry was "Zvi Hersch".)
>
> Sephardic Jews tend to name after living relatives (and I believe that
> there are customs for who you're named after based on birth order),
> but I wouldn't expect many of them in Austria back then (or now, for
> that matter).
--
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Reinhold (Rey) Aman <am...@sonic.net> wrote:
[snip]
> Then there are German-Jewish names that were originally Hebrew but
>were translated into German or adapted to look German: Freud (from
>Simkha), Fried, -man (from Shalom), Hirsch (from Naftali), or Löb,
>Löwenberg (from ~ Levy). Some French Jews translated their German names
>into French, e.g., Cerf (from German "Hirsch" = hart) or Neuville (half
>German, half French) from German "Neustadt."
IMHO, 'Hirsch' more often corresponds to 'Zvi' than to 'Naftali'. After
all, 'Hirsch' is a good translation for 'zvi' ("gazelle"). I'm not sure
what "Naftali" means (is it related to 'naphtha' or to 'nopheth' "honey-
comb"?), but it's not an animal. For some reasons, the names of Jacob and
three of his sons were traditionally associated with certain German animal
names.
[snip]
>> [1] I've been informed recently (a couple of years ago) that our name is
>> actually not German but from somewhere in or near the old Austro-Hungarian
>> Empire, possibly the Ukraine, the old kingdom of Galicia or Hungary itself.
>> This from someone who has done fairly extensive research on the Nebenzahl
>> genealogy, and whose own name (Nemes) was supposedly changed and Magyar-ized
>> from Nebenzahl.
>
> Wrong. The Hungarian name "Nemes" (pronounced like German
>"Nämäsch"or IPA /'n&m&S/) cannot possibly be derived or translated from
>the German "Nebenzahl." Hung. Nemes means "noble, precious" and is a
>"typical Jewish" name, as are its related German-Jewish forms Adel,
>-man, Edel, -man "noble man, nobleman."
[snip]
But name changes don't necessarily work by derivation or translation. Mr.
Kirshenbaum's grandfathers illustrate this nicely: One Zvi translated his
name to "Hirsch" and then replaced it with a completely unrelated but sim-
ilar-sounding English name ("Harry") when he came to these shores. The
other had a completely unrelated German name ("Heinrich") that was re-
placed with its cognate English equivalent ("Henry") Stateside.
"Nemes" could be equated with "Nebenzahl" the same way as "Hirsch" was
with "Harry": It's common a common name with the same initial sound.
I would be extremely interested in any work done on the Magyarisation of
Jewish surnames in Hungary. They assimilated en masse in the 19th century
and I've often wondered what percentage translated their names, what per-
centage chose similar-sounding ones, the names of family friends or a
Magyar ancestor, etc.
Mahatma Caine Jeeves
<<German Jewish names like Rosenthal or Blumenthal have "lovely"
translations.>>
In my book, they have "rose valley" and "flower valley"
translations. Who translates them as "lovely"?
--
(Reply to SteveMacGregor at InfiCad dot Com)
---------------------------------------------------------
Whom are you going to call? GRAMMAR BUSTERS!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
>
> Reinhold (Rey) Aman <am...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> [snip]
> > Then there are German-Jewish names that were originally Hebrew but
> >were translated into German or adapted to look German: Freud (from
> >Simkha), Fried, -man (from Shalom), Hirsch (from Naftali), or Löb,
> >Löwenberg (from ~ Levy). Some French Jews translated their German names
> >into French, e.g., Cerf (from German "Hirsch" = hart) or Neuville (half
> >German, half French) from German "Neustadt."
>
> IMHO, 'Hirsch' more often corresponds to 'Zvi' than to 'Naftali'. After
> all, 'Hirsch' is a good translation for 'zvi' ("gazelle"). I'm not sure
> what "Naftali" means (is it related to 'naphtha' or to 'nopheth' "honey-
> comb"?), but it's not an animal. For some reasons, the names of Jacob and
> three of his sons were traditionally associated with certain German animal
> names.
The "Hirsch" from "Naftali" information is from Mencken (op.cit.,
598), who cites Genesis XLIX, 21: _naftali / naphtali_ = "a hind let
loose").
> [snip]
> >> [1] I've been informed recently (a couple of years ago) that our name is
> >> actually not German but from somewhere in or near the old Austro-Hungarian
> >> Empire, possibly the Ukraine, the old kingdom of Galicia or Hungary itself.
> >> This from someone who has done fairly extensive research on the Nebenzahl
> >> genealogy, and whose own name (Nemes) was supposedly changed
> >> and Magyar-ized from Nebenzahl.
> > Wrong. The Hungarian name "Nemes" (pronounced like German
> >"Nämäsch"or IPA /'n&m&S/) cannot possibly be derived or translated from
> >the German "Nebenzahl." Hung. Nemes means "noble, precious" and is a
> >"typical Jewish" name, as are its related German-Jewish forms Adel,
> >-man, Edel, -man "noble man, nobleman."
> [snip]
> But name changes don't necessarily work by derivation or translation.
I did not say they did. I disputed that "Nemes" was 'changed and
Magyarized' from "Nebenzahl." These two names have absolutely nothing
in common, semantically or otherwise, except for their inital "N-,"
which is irrelevant.
> Mr. Kirshenbaum's grandfathers illustrate this nicely: One Zvi translated his
> name to "Hirsch" and then replaced it with a completely unrelated but sim-
> ilar-sounding English name ("Harry") when he came to these shores. The
> other had a completely unrelated German name ("Heinrich") that was re-
> placed with its cognate English equivalent ("Henry") Stateside.
>
> "Nemes" could be equated with "Nebenzahl" the same way as "Hirsch" was
> with "Harry": It's common a common name with the same initial sound.
This argument is downright silly, Edward. See my preceding
comment. When a word is "derived from" another one, it's irrelevant
whether both begin with the same sound or letter. Mr. Nemes né
Nebenzahl could have picked a thousand other names beginning with "N-"
to keep his initials, but few if any would be Hungarianized versions of
"Nebenzahl." Hungarian for German _neben_ is _mellett, mellé, melléval,
mellével_ or _között_. Why did Mr. N not translate his name and choose
"Közöttszám" or "Mellésokaság" or "Mellékszoba" or "Benyiló"? Instead,
he picked a "nice" Hungarian- Jewish name *totally unrelated* to his
original name.
> I would be extremely interested in any work done on the Magyarisation of
> Jewish surnames in Hungary. They assimilated en masse in the 19th century
> and I've often wondered what percentage translated their names, what per-
> centage chose similar-sounding ones, the names of family friends or a
> Magyar ancestor, etc.
Perhaps you'll find some references in Edwin Lawson's recent
bibliography on name research, with many Jewish sources.
The Chocolate Lady
Community News Flash, P&DSchultz <schu...@erols.com> reported:
>Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>> <...>
>> I always just assumed that it meant that an ancestor owned an orchard
>> or lived near the old cherry tree or something. I now wonder whether
>> it is actually a reference to something in German literature.
>> Anybody?
>
>Some of these names get twisted around. I have an aquaintance named
>Rashbaum, who assumed his name had something to do with a tree. But
>research revealed that the name had been Rashbam, an acronym (in the
>Jewish custom) for some illustrious rabbi ancestor (say, Rabbi Shmuel
>ben Moshe or something), and the Ellis Island clerk had "regularized"
>it.
That's sort of like Katz, then.
Katz is actually the acronym for "Cohen Tzadik".
The Chocolate Lady (Davida Chazan)
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"Procrastinatorial, Persnickitorial Pugnascitoralist."
--- Chris.tine Mclaughlin
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Support the Jayne Hitchcock HELP Fund:
http://www.lutzbooks.com/booksale/
al...@myself.com
<36a21c7b...@news.cjnetworks.com>...
>
>Mimi Kahn wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:23:46 -0500, "Skitt" <al...@myself.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Come to think of it, the Jews in Latvia could be identified instantly by
their
>>>names (looks also).
>>
>>Yeah, we all look alike. I look just like Lauren Bacall. So do all
>>other Jewish women, including Goldie Hawn, Bette Midler, and the late
>>Golda Meir.
>
>I doubt Mimi. I believe Skitt. San Francisco should drop into the ocean.
<rave> I haven't seen Mimi's post yet, but Goldie is only half-Jewish and
quite cute, but as for Bette and Golda -- what can I say -- double-Jewish
looking, as we used to say in Europe. The fat, curving down lips, arrogant,
princess-like behavior...unmistakable, and to me, repulsive. Yes, I was at
one time "acquainted" with a Jewish actress-wanna-be go-go-dancer gal. Like I
said, if they are good looking, slender and willing to cooperate, who am I to
exercise judgment as to their ancestry. (Oh,oh, now I've done it as far as
the ethnically Jewish-looking ones are concerned, but consider the following:
I would not consider an Australian pygmy for a mate either.) There are,
however, many, many Jewish ladies here in the USA that I could not identify
as being Jewish (ethnically, of course -- the religion is something
altogether) and if fanatic beliefs were put aside, they could be welcome to
my affections.
There is no doubt that I could not pick out ethnically Jewish persons in the
USA, except for some. As it happened in Latvia, they were of quite a
different appearance than the native folk. We also did not have any Hollywood
Jews -- the ones who, in order to further their careers, adopted the Jewish
faith (not the beliefs, I think). Elizabeth Taylor and Sammy Davis, Jr. come
to mind. Whatever works, right? Sorry if I'm a bit bitter -- it comes with
childhood experiences in Europe. </rave>
I'm all better now.
--
Skitt http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/5537/
If you are posting a reply, please, do not email it. It just confuses me.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Being named after a tree is a subset of "typical" German-Jewish
> names: Kirschenbaum, Apfelbaum (Appelbaum, Eplboym) = apple tree,
> Birnbaum = pear tree, Rosenbaum = rose tree, Feigenbaum = fig tree,
> Taitelbaum = (? I forgot), Pflaumenbaum (Floymenboym) = plum tree,
> Tannenbaum = fir tree, Mandelbaum = almond tree.
In high school I had a friend named "Buxbaum". She always translated
it as "box tree", which I figured was a box elder. Checking my
(wholly inadequate) German dictionary, I don't find that, but "Buche"
is a beech, which I suppose makes more sense (the box elder being an
American species).
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |You gotta know when to code,
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U | Know when to log out,
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Know when to single step,
| Know when you're through.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |You don't write your program
(650)857-7572 | When you're sittin' at the term'nal.
|There'll be time enough for writin'
| When you're in the queue.
Aaron J. Dinkin
> D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff wrote:
> >
> > In article <369F10...@sonic.net>,
> > Reinhold (Rey) Aman <am...@sonic.net> wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> > >> [1] I've been informed recently (a couple of years ago) that our name is
> > >> actually not German but from somewhere in or near the old
> > >> Austro-Hungarian Empire, possibly the Ukraine, the old kingdom of Galicia
> > >> or Hungary itself. This from someone who has done fairly extensive
> > >> research on the Nebenzahl genealogy, and whose own name (Nemes) was
> > >> supposedly changed and Magyar-ized from Nebenzahl.
>
> > > Wrong. The Hungarian name "Nemes" (pronounced like German
> > >"Nämäsch"or IPA /'n&m&S/) cannot possibly be derived or translated from
> > >the German "Nebenzahl." Hung. Nemes means "noble, precious" and is a
> > >"typical Jewish" name, as are its related German-Jewish forms Adel,
> > >-man, Edel, -man "noble man, nobleman."
> > [snip]
>
> > But name changes don't necessarily work by derivation or translation.
>
> I did not say they did. I disputed that "Nemes" was 'changed and
> Magyarized' from "Nebenzahl." These two names have absolutely nothing
> in common, semantically or otherwise, except for their inital "N-,"
> which is irrelevant.
On the contrary. The initial "N-" is far from irrelevant; it is the _entire
point_. The reason Nemes's name was "Nemes" is because some ancestor of
his, Nebenzahl, changed his name to sound more Hungarian. In other words,
he changed and Magyarized his name.
> > Mr. Kirshenbaum's grandfathers illustrate this nicely: One Zvi translated
> > his name to "Hirsch" and then replaced it with a completely unrelated but
> > similar-sounding English name ("Harry") when he came to these shores. The
> > other had a completely unrelated German name ("Heinrich") that was re-
> > placed with its cognate English equivalent ("Henry") Stateside.
> >
> > "Nemes" could be equated with "Nebenzahl" the same way as "Hirsch" was
> > with "Harry": It's common a common name with the same initial sound.
>
> This argument is downright silly, Edward. See my preceding
> comment. When a word is "derived from" another one, it's irrelevant
> whether both begin with the same sound or letter. Mr. Nemes né
> Nebenzahl could have picked a thousand other names beginning with "N-"
> to keep his initials, but few if any would be Hungarianized versions of
> "Nebenzahl."
Who used the words "derived from" or "versions of 'Nebenzahl'"? The only
claim us that the Nemes in question was originally a Nebenzahl, but he
changed and Magyarized his name.
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Donna Richoux
> rush...@aol.com (Rushtown) writes:
>
> > German Jewish names like Rosenthal or Blumenthal have "lovely"
> > translations. Why? Were these names made up?
>
> When I was in Israel, someone commented that my last name (which is
> misspelled German (not Yiddish) for "cherry tree") was "very poetic".
>
> I always just assumed that it meant that an ancestor owned an orchard
> or lived near the old cherry tree or something. I now wonder whether
> it is actually a reference to something in German literature.
> Anybody?
I know I have read something about the period of time in German history
when Jews took names in German form, but I can't find the reference now.
Perhaps someone else will know this history better. I did find in
"Wanderings: Chaim Potok's History of the Jews" a description of the
Jews in Germany in the 1700s:
"Peripheral elements of Jewish civilization were shed in emulation of
the periphery of the surrounding culture. Jews shaved their beards and
donned the wigs and clothes of their host civilization. The
disappearance of the dissimilarity of dress led to social acceptance,
much card playing, and families joining together to celebrate happy
occasions..." [p.485, followed by several more pages about the "Jewish
Enlightenment"]
There's nothing about names there, but this time of general blending in
and letting go of old ways may well have been the time they shed Hebrew
names, and made up pleasant-sounding ones with Germanic elements.
Or maybe not. There may have been another time when there was strong
social and legal pressure put on them to change. Sorry I can't find that
reference.
Best wishes --- Donna Richoux
David Nebenzahl
Ahem. Before this line of discussion goes much farther (further?), let me just say
that I may have been misremembering when I stated that Nemes' name had been
"Magyarized". I don't remember the details, but I remember him writing that he was a
Nebenzahl and that his name had been changed: it may have been simply replaced with
a Hungarian name, not transformed into a different form related to "Nebenzahl".