half shell (or half-shell)

[Peter Percival]

When Joan Baez sings of "the girl on the half shell" (Diamonds and
Rust), what does she mean?
--
Do, as a concession to my poor wits, Lord Darlington, just explain
to me what you really mean.
I think I had better not, Duchess. Nowadays to be intelligible is
to be found out. -- Oscar Wilde, Lady Windermere's Fan

[Jerry Friedman]

On Wednesday, November 22, 2017 at 2:59:47 PM UTC-7, Peter Percival wrote:
> When Joan Baez sings of "the girl on the half shell" (Diamonds and
> Rust), what does she mean?

I get the impression she means herself. She was never noted for
modesty. Neither was Venus.

http://wallpaperweb.org/wallpaper/drawing/the-birth-of-venus-botticelli_25906.htm

--
Jerry Friedman

[Paul Wolff]

On Wed, 22 Nov 2017, Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> posted:

'Venus on the Half-Shell' was a ground-breaking novel by Kilgore Trout.
I may have a copy somewhere, if you'll only just hang on a moment...
--
Paul

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 21:59:43 +0000, Peter Percival
<peterxp...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>When Joan Baez sings of "the girl on the half shell" (Diamonds and
>Rust), what does she mean?

It's a song she wrote about her relationship with Bob Dylan years
after it was over. Said to be a "bittersweet reminiscence".

The "Girl on the Halfshell" is Venus emerging from the sea in
Botticelli's painting "The Birth of Venus".

The full verse is:

Well you burst on the scene
Already a legend
The unwashed phenomenon
The original vagabond
You strayed into my arms
And there you stayed
Temporarily lost at sea
The Madonna was yours for free
Yes the girl on the half-shell
Could keep…

Dylan was already famous when the started going out together. Baez
had had some success, but was still emerging as a national icon.




--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Mack A. Damia]

On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 21:59:43 +0000, Peter Percival
<peterxp...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>When Joan Baez sings of "the girl on the half shell" (Diamonds and
>Rust), what does she mean?

The reference to "the girl on the half-shell" as "The Birth of Venus"
by Sandro Botticelli, is probably correct. Her grandfather was a
Methodist minister, and her father considered going into the ministry,
and the Baez family converted to Quakerism during Joan's early
childhood. She has continued to identify with the tradition,
particularly in her commitment to pacifism and social issues.

You may know this if you have done some research:

She once said in a 1975 interview that the song is about her
ex-husband, David Harris, when he was in prison for draft evasion, a
federal felony. He was imprisoned for about fifteen months and
released in 1970. He was divorced from Joan in 1973.

But she said some years later in an interview that the character in
the song is Bob Dylan. The song alludes to Baez's relationship with
him ten years before

[Peter Moylan]

I was about to say the same. For those who don't know, the novel was
really by Philip Jose Farmer, but the name Kilgore Trout -- probably a
play on the name of Theodore Sturgeon, another SF author -- was a
recurring character in the writings of Kurt Vonnegut.

I wish I could show you the large painting hanging in a pizza restaurant
I used to frequent. It's a pretty good copy of Botticelli's painting,
except that Venus has been replaced by a prominent politician.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Peter Percival]

Peter Percival wrote:
> When Joan Baez sings of "the girl on the half shell" (Diamonds and
> Rust), what does she mean?

Thank you for all replies. I am familiar with Botticelli's Birth of
Venus but had not connected the two. So to a supplementary question:
should "half shell" be hyphenated?

[bil...@shaw.ca]

On Thursday, November 23, 2017 at 1:52:32 PM UTC-8, Peter Percival wrote:
> Peter Percival wrote:
> > When Joan Baez sings of "the girl on the half shell" (Diamonds and
> > Rust), what does she mean?
>
> Thank you for all replies. I am familiar with Botticelli's Birth of
> Venus but had not connected the two. So to a supplementary question:
> should "half shell" be hyphenated?
>

It doesn't need hyphenation. It's just a noun modified by an adjective.

bill

[Mark Brader]

Peter Percival:

>> should "half shell" be hyphenated?

William Boei:

> It doesn't need hyphenation. It's just a noun modified by an adjective.

I think that as soon as "half" moves after the article it's a prefix
attached to the noun, and correctly written with an article. To me,
30 minutes is "half an hour" or "a half-hour", but not "a half hour".
--
Mark Brader | "I'm a little worried about the bug-eater", she said.
Toronto | "We're embedded in bugs, have you noticed?"
m...@vex.net | -- Niven, "The Integral Trees"

[bil...@shaw.ca]

On Thursday, November 23, 2017 at 7:42:26 PM UTC-8, Mark Brader wrote:
> Peter Percival:
> >> should "half shell" be hyphenated?
>
> William Boei:
> > It doesn't need hyphenation. It's just a noun modified by an adjective.
>
> I think that as soon as "half" moves after the article it's a prefix
> attached to the noun, and correctly written with an article. To me,
> 30 minutes is "half an hour" or "a half-hour", but not "a half hour".

I don't see it that way. "The half shell" is the same kind of structure as
"the brown cow". Not "the brown-cow".

bill

[Richard Heathfield]

On 24/11/17 03:42, Mark Brader wrote:
> Peter Percival:
>>> should "half shell" be hyphenated?
>
> William Boei:
>> It doesn't need hyphenation. It's just a noun modified by an adjective.
>
> I think that as soon as "half" moves after the article it's a prefix
> attached to the noun, and correctly written with an article. To me,
> 30 minutes is "half an hour" or "a half-hour", but not "a half hour".

How do you feel about the time (when written out in words)?

"half past nine"
"half-past-nine"
"half-past nine"

And if the quoted speaker were being a little less specific, would you
prefer to see:

"It's already nine. I can't get there until half past." (no hyphen)

or

"It's already nine. I can't get there until half-past." (hyphen)


--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[Mark Brader]

Mark Brader:

> > I think that as soon as "half" moves after the article it's a prefix
> > attached to the noun, and correctly written with an article.

Ouch! I meant to say with a *hyphen*.

> > To me,
> > 30 minutes is "half an hour" or "a half-hour", but not "a half hour".

Richard Heathfield:

> How do you feel about the time (when written out in words)?
>
> "half past nine"

"9:30". But if I must have the other, then no hyphens.

> "It's already nine. I can't get there until half past." (no hyphen)

> or...

No hyphen. My comment was specifically about half-things.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "UNIX make moving not pain
m...@vex.net | but almost pleasure." -- "Housewife", 1941

[Richard Heathfield]

On 24/11/17 09:54, Mark Brader wrote:
> Mark Brader:

<snip>

>>> To me,
>>> 30 minutes is "half an hour" or "a half-hour", but not "a half hour".
>
> Richard Heathfield:
>> How do you feel about the time (when written out in words)?
>>
>> "half past nine"
>
> "9:30". But if I must have the other, then no hyphens.

I would tend to agree about the hyphen, but it's good to have it
confirmed. As for "9:30", it's certainly a heck of a lot quicker to
type. And, in formal communications, I would agree that it's better; but
I have found that it looks slightly jarring in prose.

Thus, I might write to negotiate an appointment:

"Would 9:30 [or 09:30] be a convenient time?"

and have no problem with it, but I would baulk at:

"Nossir, the guvnor's norrin, bu' you only jus' missed 'im. 'E wen' ou'
abou' 9:30 to play golf wi' Colonel For'escue."

It just /looks/ wrong (to my eyes), and it suggests that the speaker is
enunciating "nine-thirty" whereas in fact he's far more likely to say
"'alf pas' noin".

>> "It's already nine. I can't get there until half past." (no hyphen)
>> or...
>
> No hyphen. My comment was specifically about half-things.

Understood. I assumed that was all dealt with, and I took the
opportunity to move on to a related matter without trying to imply that
there was any strict connection.

[John Varela]

I would hyphenate oysters on the half-shell, for the same reason
(which I have difficulty articulating) I would hypenate hard-boiled
egg or double-cooked pork. It's sort of a culinary term of art.

--
John Varela

[Peter T. Daniels]

I'd hyphenate them all, but _not_ for the same reason!

[bil...@shaw.ca]

But "shell" is the noun, and "half" is the adjective modifying it.
"Hard-boiled egg" takes a hyphen because an adjectival phrase -- two words --
is modifying "egg". That's not the case with "on the half shell".

If you could come up with a phrase where "half-shell" is an adjectival phrase,
perhaps something like "Let's order the half-shell oysters", then you'd have
a reason for a hyphen.

bill

[Mark Brader]

William Boei:

> But "shell" is the noun, and "half" is the adjective modifying it.

So you say. I say "half-shell" is the noun.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "... pure English is de rigueur"
m...@vex.net -- Guardian Weekly

[bil...@shaw.ca]

On Friday, November 24, 2017 at 11:32:11 PM UTC-8, Mark Brader wrote:
> William Boei:
> > But "shell" is the noun, and "half" is the adjective modifying it.
>
> So you say. I say "half-shell" is the noun.

I think it will be a noun when it is written as "halfshell". Consider the North
American football player currently known as a "halfback", a usage that
took over from "half-back" not very long ago and started as "half back"
in rugby. I can think of "half-shell" as a transitional stage between
adjective-hyphen-noun and noun. As long as they're separated by either a
space or a hyphen, I see a noun and its modifier.

bill

[Peter T. Daniels]

Whether or not it's spelled with a hyphen (and if we wrote of half-shells as
often as we write of halfbacks, there would be no dispute), the stress pattern
shows that it is not the same construction as hard-boiled and double-cooked
(_recte_ twice-cooked). It's simply blackbird vs. black bird.

[John Varela]

What I see is two words in an intermediate state on the road to
becoming a single word.

Appeal to authority: M-W says it's two words, OED lists half-shell
as a noun.

--
John Varela