Klaxon

[occam]

A BBC news headline today:

"Klaxon installed to warn at-risk homes"

Klaxon sounds like a trade mark, so I looked into its etymology.

From wiki:

"From the trademark Klaxon, based on Ancient Greek κλάζω (klázō, “make a
sharp sound; scream”) (from Proto-Indo-European *glag- (“to make a
noise, clap, twitter”), from *gal- (“to roop, scream, shout”)). The word
was coined by Franklyn Hallett Lovell Jr., the founder of the
Lovell-McConnell Manufacturing Co. of Newark, New Jersey, USA, which in
1908 obtained a licence of the patent to the machine generating the
sound from American inventor Miller Reese Hutchison (1876–1944)."

The interesting part of that paragraph for me is the phrase "Ancient
Greek κλάζω (klázō, “make a sharp sound; scream”)"

In modern Greek vernacular the word is used to mean "I fart".

[charles]

In article <imutnb...@mid.individual.net>,

occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
> A BBC news headline today:

> "Klaxon installed to warn at-risk homes"

> Klaxon sounds like a trade mark, so I looked into its etymology.

> From wiki:

> "From the trademark Klaxon, based on Ancient Greek κλάζω (klαzς, make a

> sharp sound; scream ) (from Proto-Indo-European *glag- ( to make a
> noise, clap, twitter ), from *gal- ( to roop, scream, shout )). The word
> was coined by Franklyn Hallett Lovell Jr., the founder of the
> Lovell-McConnell Manufacturing Co. of Newark, New Jersey, USA, which in
> 1908 obtained a licence of the patent to the machine generating the
> sound from American inventor Miller Reese Hutchison (1876 1944)."

> The interesting part of that paragraph for me is the phrase "Ancient

> Greek κλάζω (klαzς, make a sharp sound; scream )"

> In modern Greek vernacular the word is used to mean "I fart".

Klaxon became a "non-brand" term in WW2 in the UK where the equipment was
used particularly in RAF bases. It's become a word like "Hoover" "Biro",
etc.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[J. J. Lodder]

charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:

> In article <imutnb...@mid.individual.net>,
> occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
> > A BBC news headline today:
>
> > "Klaxon installed to warn at-risk homes"
>
> > Klaxon sounds like a trade mark, so I looked into its etymology.
>
> > From wiki:
>

> > "From the trademark Klaxon, based on Ancient Greek ????? (kl?z?, ?make a
> > sharp sound; scream?) (from Proto-Indo-European *glag- (?to make a
> > noise, clap, twitter?), from *gal- (?to roop, scream, shout?)). The word

> > was coined by Franklyn Hallett Lovell Jr., the founder of the
> > Lovell-McConnell Manufacturing Co. of Newark, New Jersey, USA, which in
> > 1908 obtained a licence of the patent to the machine generating the

> > sound from American inventor Miller Reese Hutchison (1876?1944)."

>
> > The interesting part of that paragraph for me is the phrase "Ancient

> > Greek ????? (kl?z?, ?make a sharp sound; scream?)"

>
> > In modern Greek vernacular the word is used to mean "I fart".
>
> Klaxon became a "non-brand" term in WW2 in the UK where the equipment was
> used particularly in RAF bases. It's become a word like "Hoover" "Biro",
> etc.

The word has been taken over in many other languages.
For some strange reason it remained 'klaxon' in French,
but it became 'claxon' in Dutch.

Flemish contrariness?

Jan

[Peter Moylan]

I first met the French verb klaxonner (to toot one's horn) in speech
rather than writing. Until I finally looked it up, a year or more later,
I continued to think the spelling was claque-sonner.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[J. J. Lodder]

You might have seen the trafic sign
<https://www.bruneau.fr/equipement-amenagement/affichage-exposition/signaletique/panneaux-pictogrammes/panneaux-d-obligation/panneau-iso-7010-utiliser-klaxon-m029-of8096228.htm>
It can be found for example on narrow mountain roads
where there is only room for one vehicle in a turn or tunnel,
and where you can't see if someone is coming from the other side,

Jan

[Ken Blake]

On 8/4/2021 1:04 AM, charles wrote:
> In article <imutnb...@mid.individual.net>,
> occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>> A BBC news headline today:
>
>> "Klaxon installed to warn at-risk homes"
>
>> Klaxon sounds like a trade mark, so I looked into its etymology.
>
>> From wiki:
>
>> "From the trademark Klaxon, based on Ancient Greek κλάζω (klαzς, make a
>> sharp sound; scream ) (from Proto-Indo-European *glag- ( to make a
>> noise, clap, twitter ), from *gal- ( to roop, scream, shout )). The word
>> was coined by Franklyn Hallett Lovell Jr., the founder of the
>> Lovell-McConnell Manufacturing Co. of Newark, New Jersey, USA, which in
>> 1908 obtained a licence of the patent to the machine generating the
>> sound from American inventor Miller Reese Hutchison (1876 1944)."
>
>> The interesting part of that paragraph for me is the phrase "Ancient
>> Greek κλάζω (klαzς, make a sharp sound; scream )"
>
>> In modern Greek vernacular the word is used to mean "I fart".
>
> Klaxon became a "non-brand" term in WW2 in the UK where the equipment was
> used particularly in RAF bases.

I know the word, but it's very seldom used in AmE.

> It's become a word like "Hoover" "Biro",
> etc.

...in BrE, not in AmE. "Xerox" is used in AmE; is it used in BrE?


--
Ken

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 4 Aug 2021 08:11:08 -0700, Ken Blake <k...@invalidemail.com>
wrote:

>> Klaxon became a "non-brand" term in WW2 in the UK where the equipment was
>> used particularly in RAF bases.
>
>
>I know the word, but it's very seldom used in AmE.
>

At the baseball and football fields where my grandsons have played in
various leagues over the past years, there's a system that sounds a
loud alarm if there is lightning in the area. If the system sounds
off, players must leave the field and spectators must leave the
stands. The the game is suspended for 30 minutes minimum when the
all-clear is announced if there are no further indications of
lightning.

When this happens, the players and the spectators have to leave the
park/stadium, but they all congregate in the parking lot or just
outside the grounds. It's as if lightning will not strike in that
area. I don't think lightning knows the rules, though.

I would call that system a "klaxon", but I don't know if that word
would be used by others.

There were 20 lightning deaths in Florida in 2019, and 17 in 2020.
--

Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 04 Aug 2021 11:26:46 -0400, Tony Cooper
<tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 4 Aug 2021 08:11:08 -0700, Ken Blake <k...@invalidemail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>> Klaxon became a "non-brand" term in WW2 in the UK where the equipment was
>>> used particularly in RAF bases.
>>
>>
>>I know the word, but it's very seldom used in AmE.
>>
>At the baseball and football fields where my grandsons have played in
>various leagues over the past years, there's a system that sounds a
>loud alarm if there is lightning in the area. If the system sounds
>off, players must leave the field and spectators must leave the
>stands.

> The the game is suspended for 30 minutes minimum when the
>all-clear is announced if there are no further indications of
>lightning.

Let me re-write that: The game is suspended for a minimum of 30
minutes. The all-clear is announced after that if there are no
further indications of lightning. The all-clear is voice announced.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Yes, but "xerox" rather than "Xerox".


--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

[Rich Ulrich]

I saw "claxon" a few times in one book, just a few weeks ago. I
briefly wondered if it might be the BrE variation which I didn't
remember seeing before. Then I put it out of mind.

I don't remember which American fiction I was reading.

--
Rich Ulrich

[soup]

Aren't these known as Generic terms ?

[Andy Leighton]

Whilst it is understood it is rarely used IME. Most often you hear
photocopy rather than xerox.

--
Andy Leighton => an...@azaal.plus.com
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
- Douglas Adams

[Ken Blake]

Note that the "X" in "Xerox" was the first letter of the sentence I wrote.


--
Ken

[Ken Blake]

"Xerox" is becoming less common in AmE too. I think "photocopy" or just
"copy" have become more common.

--
Ken

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Yes, but that's not what the owners of the trademarks want you to
think. They'd prefer that you write Xerox™ (etc.), and then only if
it's a real Xerox™ photocopier.

[charles]

In article <in009n...@mid.individual.net>, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Xerox is/was not a photocopier. No photographic process is involved. That's
why it took off so quickly.

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 04 Aug 2021 18:29:04 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk>
wrote:

>In article <in009n...@mid.individual.net>, Athel Cornish-Bowden
><acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>> On 2021-08-04 16:41:34 +0000, soup said:
>
>> > On 04/08/2021 09:04, charles wrote:
>> >> In article <imutnb...@mid.individual.net>, occam
>> >> <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>> >>> A BBC news headline today:
>> >>
>> >>> "Klaxon installed to warn at-risk homes"
>> >>
>> >>> Klaxon sounds like a trade mark, so I looked into its etymology.
>> >>
>> >>> From wiki:
>> >>

>> >>> "From the trademark Klaxon, based on Ancient Greek ????? (kl?z?,
>> >>> ?make a sharp sound; scream?) (from Proto-Indo-European *glag- (?to
>> >>> make a noise, clap, twitter?), from *gal- (?to roop, scream,

>> >>> shout?)). The word was coined by Franklyn Hallett Lovell Jr., the

>> >>> founder of the Lovell-McConnell Manufacturing Co. of Newark, New
>> >>> Jersey, USA, which in 1908 obtained a licence of the patent to the
>> >>> machine generating the sound from American inventor Miller Reese

>> >>> Hutchison (1876?1944)."

>> >>
>> >>> The interesting part of that paragraph for me is the phrase "Ancient

>> >>> Greek ????? (kl?z?, ?make a sharp sound; scream?)"
>> >>

>> >>> In modern Greek vernacular the word is used to mean "I fart".
>> >>
>> >> Klaxon became a "non-brand" term in WW2 in the UK where the equipment
>> >> was used particularly in RAF bases. It's become a word like "Hoover"
>> >> "Biro", etc.
>> >>
>> > Aren't these known as Generic terms ?
>
>> Yes, but that's not what the owners of the trademarks want you to think.

>> They'd prefer that you write Xerox? (etc.), and then only if it's a real
>> Xerox? photocopier.

>
>Xerox is/was not a photocopier. No photographic process is involved. That's
>why it took off so quickly.
>

Oddly, a Xerox copy is not a photocopy, but a photocopy is a scan.

[Quinn C]

* charles:

That can't be true.

| Xerography is a dry photocopying technique. Originally called
| electrophotography [...] Xerography is now used in most photocopying
| machines and in laser and LED printers.

The big innovation is that it doesn't require a liquid process.
--
I don't see people ... as having a right to be idiots. It's
just impractical to try to stop them, unless they're hurting
somebody. -- Vicereine Cordelia
in L. McMaster Bujold, Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen

[musika]

A photoconductor was used.

--
Ray
UK

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I'm not too sure what you mean. No silver chemistry, certainly, but is
that necessary for it to be photographic? It uses photons to make an
image, and then outputs the image to paper. Is that not photographic?
What about Tony's camera, which probably doesn't use any silver: does
it produce photographs?

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 4 Aug 2021 20:21:44 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden

<acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>On 2021-08-04 17:29:04 +0000, charles said:
>
>> In article <in009n...@mid.individual.net>, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>> On 2021-08-04 16:41:34 +0000, soup said:
>>
>>>> On 04/08/2021 09:04, charles wrote:
>>>>> In article <imutnb...@mid.individual.net>, occam
>>>>> <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>>>> A BBC news headline today:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Klaxon installed to warn at-risk homes"
>>>>>
>>>>>> Klaxon sounds like a trade mark, so I looked into its etymology.
>>>>>
>>>>>> From wiki:
>>>>>

>>>>>> "From the trademark Klaxon, based on Ancient Greek ????? (kl?z?,
>>>>>> ?make a sharp sound; scream?) (from Proto-Indo-European *glag- (?to
>>>>>> make a noise, clap, twitter?), from *gal- (?to roop, scream,

>>>>>> shout?)). The word was coined by Franklyn Hallett Lovell Jr., the

>>>>>> founder of the Lovell-McConnell Manufacturing Co. of Newark, New
>>>>>> Jersey, USA, which in 1908 obtained a licence of the patent to the
>>>>>> machine generating the sound from American inventor Miller Reese

>>>>>> Hutchison (1876?1944)."

>>>>>
>>>>>> The interesting part of that paragraph for me is the phrase "Ancient

>>>>>> Greek ????? (kl?z?, ?make a sharp sound; scream?)"
>>>>>

>>>>>> In modern Greek vernacular the word is used to mean "I fart".
>>>>>
>>>>> Klaxon became a "non-brand" term in WW2 in the UK where the equipment
>>>>> was used particularly in RAF bases. It's become a word like "Hoover"
>>>>> "Biro", etc.
>>>>>
>>>> Aren't these known as Generic terms ?
>>
>>> Yes, but that's not what the owners of the trademarks want you to think.

>>> They'd prefer that you write Xerox? (etc.), and then only if it's a real
>>> Xerox? photocopier.

>>
>> Xerox is/was not a photocopier. No photographic process is involved. That's
>> why it took off so quickly.
>
>I'm not too sure what you mean. No silver chemistry, certainly, but is
>that necessary for it to be photographic? It uses photons to make an
>image, and then outputs the image to paper. Is that not photographic?
>What about Tony's camera, which probably doesn't use any silver: does
>it produce photographs?

That's a tricky question, and depends on how you define "photograph".
My camera captures an image on a memory card and that image is
transferred to my computer. I can then create a printed copy of that
image with my printer.

Of course, you have used the word "produce". The camera is essential
in producing the resulting photograph.

If I was still using a film camera I would be using silver. Film uses
silver halide crystals.

Digital cameras use memory cards, which capture the image using
processed sand. (Silicone)

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Well yes, but I'm wondering how _charles_ defines "photograph".

> My camera captures an image on a memory card and that image is
> transferred to my computer. I can then create a printed copy of that
> image with my printer.

I do all that too. My results are probably less good than yours, but
that's how I get them.

>
> Of course, you have used the word "produce". The camera is essential
> in producing the resulting photograph.
>
> If I was still using a film camera I would be using silver. Film uses
> silver halide crystals.
>
> Digital cameras use memory cards, which capture the image using
> processed sand. (Silicone)

Probably silica rather than silicone, but I know what you mean.

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 4 Aug 2021 21:05:46 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden

That's a mistake I regularly make: writing "silicone" for "silicon".

I blame that on years of distributing Dow Corning silicone implants.

[Paul Wolff]

On Wed, 4 Aug 2021, at 10:12:27, Ken Blake posted:

I'm new to this thread. A small bell - hardly a tinkle - rings, to tell
me that 'photocopy' was once claimed as a trademark by Kodak. Can that
be true?
--
Paul

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

Not so much these days - "photocopied" is more transferable. Certainly 'Roneoed' is right out.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[Snidely]

Athel Cornish-Bowden pounded on thar keyboard to tell us

The sensor may not be that, either. A variety of crystal structures
have been used in the photon capture stage, gallium arsenide being one
I can remember. But chances are that silicon is the bulk material in
your CCD or CMOS, with various dopants used to turn the insulator into
a semiconductor.

/dps



--
"That’s where I end with this kind of conversation: Language is
crucial, and yet not the answer."
Jonathan Rosa, sociocultural and linguistic anthropologist,
Stanford.,2020

[Sam Plusnet]

You pretty much have to add "Tannoy" to that list.

--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 2:53:39 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:

> Digital cameras use memory cards, which capture the image using
> processed sand. (Silicone)

As a prosthetic, then?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 4:55:35 PM UTC-4, Sam Plusnet wrote:

> You pretty much have to add "Tannoy" to that list.

I actually heard that word in an old British movie the other week,
and thanks to this group I knew what it meant!

Unless it was on *Wellington Paranormal* the last few weeks?

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 4 Aug 2021 19:09:20 +0100, "Kerr-Mudd, John" <ad...@127.0.0.1>
wrote:

>On Wed, 4 Aug 2021 17:48:15 +0200
>Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-08-04 15:11:08 +0000, Ken Blake said:
>>
>> > On 8/4/2021 1:04 AM, charles wrote:
>> >> In article <imutnb...@mid.individual.net>,
>> >> occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>> >>> A BBC news headline today:
>> >>
>> >>> "Klaxon installed to warn at-risk homes"
>> >>
>> >>> Klaxon sounds like a trade mark, so I looked into its etymology.
>> >>
>> >>> From wiki:
>> >>

>> >>> "From the trademark Klaxon, based on Ancient Greek ????? (kl?z?, ?make a
>> >>> sharp sound; scream?) (from Proto-Indo-European *glag- (?to make a

>> >>> noise, clap, twitter?), from *gal- (?to roop, scream, shout?)). The word

>> >>> was coined by Franklyn Hallett Lovell Jr., the founder of the
>> >>> Lovell-McConnell Manufacturing Co. of Newark, New Jersey, USA, which in
>> >>> 1908 obtained a licence of the patent to the machine generating the

>> >>> sound from American inventor Miller Reese Hutchison (1876?1944)."

>> >>
>> >>> The interesting part of that paragraph for me is the phrase "Ancient

>> >>> Greek ????? (kl?z?, ?make a sharp sound; scream?)"
>> >>

>> >>> In modern Greek vernacular the word is used to mean "I fart".
>> >>
>> >> Klaxon became a "non-brand" term in WW2 in the UK where the equipment was
>> >> used particularly in RAF bases.
>> >
>> >
>> > I know the word, but it's very seldom used in AmE.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> It's become a word like "Hoover" "Biro",
>> >> etc.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ...in BrE, not in AmE. "Xerox" is used in AmE; is it used in BrE?
>>
>> Yes, but "xerox" rather than "Xerox".
>>
>>
>Not so much these days - "photocopied" is more transferable. Certainly 'Roneoed' is right out.

At one time I worked for a company that had a "wet copier". (I forget
the brand name)

When the company leased a Xerox machine, the first week after it
arrived employees made hundreds of copies just for the novelty of it.
The increased cost angered management so much they had Xerox come back
and install a code-operated system that required the user to enter a
code that indicated who had made the copies.

Every employee had a code number, and someone taped the code number
for an unpopular employee on the machine, and everyone used that
number.

By the third week after installation the novelty had worn off and
usage dropped to normal, but the increased lease charge for the code
system continued.

[Peter Moylan]

On 05/08/21 04:29, charles wrote:

> Xerox is/was not a photocopier. No photographic process is involved.
> That's why it took off so quickly.

Now and then you'll still encounter the word "xerography", but it's so
rare that it's of interest mainly to scrabble players.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Gestetnered, anyone?

[J. J. Lodder]

Not that either. 'Silica' usually means SiO2, silicium dioxide.
It really is very pure Silicium, the chemical element,
with some very small concentration of dopants,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Ken Blake <k...@invalidemail.com> wrote:

> On 8/4/2021 1:04 AM, charles wrote:
> > In article <imutnb...@mid.individual.net>,
> > occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
> >> A BBC news headline today:
> >
> >> "Klaxon installed to warn at-risk homes"
> >
> >> Klaxon sounds like a trade mark, so I looked into its etymology.
> >
> >> From wiki:
> >
> >> "From the trademark Klaxon, based on Ancient Greek ????? (kl?z?, ?make a
> >> sharp sound; scream?) (from Proto-Indo-European *glag- (?to make a
> >> noise, clap, twitter?), from *gal- (?to roop, scream, shout?)). The word
> >> was coined by Franklyn Hallett Lovell Jr., the founder of the
> >> Lovell-McConnell Manufacturing Co. of Newark, New Jersey, USA, which in
> >> 1908 obtained a licence of the patent to the machine generating the
> >> sound from American inventor Miller Reese Hutchison (1876?1944)."
> >
> >> The interesting part of that paragraph for me is the phrase "Ancient
> >> Greek ????? (kl?z?, ?make a sharp sound; scream?)"
> >
> >> In modern Greek vernacular the word is used to mean "I fart".
> >
> > Klaxon became a "non-brand" term in WW2 in the UK where the equipment was
> > used particularly in RAF bases.
>
>

> I know the word, but it's very seldom used in AmE.

A specific use of the klaxon is for a submarine diving alarm.
Learned it from Hollywood lore, so it must be true,

Jan

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

i.e. sand

> It really is very pure Silicium, the chemical element,
> with some very small concentration of dopants,
>
> Jan

[Paul Carmichael]

El Wed, 04 Aug 2021 09:04:19 +0100, charles escribió:

> In article <imutnb...@mid.individual.net>,
> occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>> A BBC news headline today:
>
>> "Klaxon installed to warn at-risk homes"
>
>> Klaxon sounds like a trade mark, so I looked into its etymology.
>
>> From wiki:
>

>> "From the trademark Klaxon, based on Ancient Greek κλάζω (klαzς, ”make
>> a sharp sound; scream•) (from Proto-Indo-European *glag- (”to make a

>> noise, clap, twitter•), from *gal- (”to roop, scream, shout•)). The

>> word was coined by Franklyn Hallett Lovell Jr., the founder of the
>> Lovell-McConnell Manufacturing Co. of Newark, New Jersey, USA, which in
>> 1908 obtained a licence of the patent to the machine generating the

>> sound from American inventor Miller Reese Hutchison (1876—1944)."

>
>> The interesting part of that paragraph for me is the phrase "Ancient

>> Greek κλάζω (klαzς, ”make a sharp sound; scream•)"
>

>> In modern Greek vernacular the word is used to mean "I fart".
>
> Klaxon became a "non-brand" term in WW2 in the UK where the equipment
> was used particularly in RAF bases. It's become a word like "Hoover"
> "Biro", etc.

Here in Spain, they at least still recognise that it came from a
trademark:

claxon
De Klaxon®, marca reg.

1. m. Esp. Bocina eléctrica.

and

bocina
Del lat. bucĭna 'trompeta', infl. por voz y con cambio del suf. ‒́ina por -
ina.

1. f. Instrumento de forma cónica con el que se refuerza el sonido
emitido, muy útil para hablar desde lejos.


2. f. En un automóvil y otros vehículos, dispositivo mecánico o
electrónico que emite señales acústicas.



--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

[J. J. Lodder]

Yes, but no one ever calls sand that. [1]
What is called 'silica' is the silica gel.
You may get a little bag of it 'for free'
when you buy things like cameras,

Jan

[1] And unfortunately for the semiconductor industry
'sand' that consists of pure SiO2 is rare indeed.
There are alarmist tales that we may run out of it.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Wed, 04 Aug 2021 15:08:57 -0400
Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 4 Aug 2021 21:05:46 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>
> >On 2021-08-04 18:53:32 +0000, Tony Cooper said:

[]

> >>
> >> If I was still using a film camera I would be using silver. Film uses
> >> silver halide crystals.
> >>
> >> Digital cameras use memory cards, which capture the image using
> >> processed sand. (Silicone)
> >
> >Probably silica rather than silicone, but I know what you mean.
>
> That's a mistake I regularly make: writing "silicone" for "silicon".
>
> I blame that on years of distributing Dow Corning silicone implants.
>

Madonna displayed real Silly Cones:
https://assets.vogue.com/photos/5e9a3583bdb99a0008102546/master/w_1280,c_limit/00_story%2520(1).jpg

[Quinn C]

* J. J. Lodder:

> > > Not that either. 'Silica' usually means SiO2, silicium dioxide.
> >
> > i.e. sand
>
> Yes, but no one ever calls sand that. [1]

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_casting#Silica_sand>

> [1] And unfortunately for the semiconductor industry
> 'sand' that consists of pure SiO2 is rare indeed.
> There are alarmist tales that we may run out of it.

Which one? I've heard of us running out of sand, but surely not of
silicon. Of course, like other materials, silicon might get more
expensive when easier to process sources run out.

--
Novels and romances ... when habitually indulged in, exert a
disastrous influence on the nervous system, sufficient to explain
that frequency of hysteria and nervous disease which we find
among the highest classes. -- E.J. Tilt

[Jerry Friedman]

On Thursday, August 5, 2021 at 1:58:25 AM UTC-6, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>
> > On 2021-08-04 18:53:32 +0000, Tony Cooper said:

...

> > > Digital cameras use memory cards, which capture the image using
> > > processed sand. (Silicone)
> >
> > Probably silica rather than silicone, but I know what you mean.

> Not that either. 'Silica' usually means SiO2, silicium dioxide.
> It really is very pure Silicium, the chemical element,
> with some very small concentration of dopants,

Silicon, not silicium.

--
Jerry Friedman

[J. J. Lodder]

Silly, but that was a parody of the bizarre kind of cones
that women were supposed to wear in the fifties.
They were/are called bullet bras,
and are still sold as retro, vintage, whatever,

Jan

[Tony Cooper]

I have, in another post, brought up that I wrote "silicone" rather
than "silicon" in error, and that I recognize this error on my part.

[Richard Heathfield]

"Silicium" was first proposed as the name for Si, by Sir Humphry Davy in
1808.


--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[Peter T. Daniels]

What does that have to do with JJ's confusion of the names of
the element in different languages?

How many times must you be told to discover the _context_ of
a remark before you come down on it?

And you had already been twitted for your breast implant obsession.

[occam]

On 04/08/2021 20:29, charles wrote:
> In article <in009n...@mid.individual.net>, Athel Cornish-Bowden

> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>> On 2021-08-04 16:41:34 +0000, soup said:
>
>>> On 04/08/2021 09:04, charles wrote:
>>>> In article <imutnb...@mid.individual.net>, occam
>>>> <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>>> A BBC news headline today:
>>>>
>>>>> "Klaxon installed to warn at-risk homes"
>>>>
>>>>> Klaxon sounds like a trade mark, so I looked into its etymology.
>>>>
>>>>> From wiki:
>>>>

>>>>> "From the trademark Klaxon, based on Ancient Greek κλάζω (klαzς,
>>>>> ”make a sharp sound; scream•) (from Proto-Indo-European *glag- (”to
>>>>> make a noise, clap, twitter•), from *gal- (”to roop, scream,

>>>>> shout•)). The word was coined by Franklyn Hallett Lovell Jr., the

>>>>> founder of the Lovell-McConnell Manufacturing Co. of Newark, New
>>>>> Jersey, USA, which in 1908 obtained a licence of the patent to the
>>>>> machine generating the sound from American inventor Miller Reese

>>>>> Hutchison (1876—1944)."

>>>>
>>>>> The interesting part of that paragraph for me is the phrase "Ancient

>>>>> Greek κλάζω (klαzς, ”make a sharp sound; scream•)"
>>>>

>>>>> In modern Greek vernacular the word is used to mean "I fart".
>>>>
>>>> Klaxon became a "non-brand" term in WW2 in the UK where the equipment
>>>> was used particularly in RAF bases. It's become a word like "Hoover"
>>>> "Biro", etc.
>>>>
>>> Aren't these known as Generic terms ?
>
>> Yes, but that's not what the owners of the trademarks want you to think.

>> They'd prefer that you write Xerox (etc.), and then only if it's a real
>> Xerox photocopier.

>
> Xerox is/was not a photocopier. No photographic process is involved. That's
> why it took off so quickly.
>

Photography - "writing with light" (Gk) does not have to involve a
chemical process you are attributing to film and photographs.
Photographers adopted the term as a short-hand way to describe the
chemical process from exposure to print.

Strictly, etching using a lazer beam is the purest form of writing with
light.

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 08:32:00 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Thursday, August 5, 2021 at 10:01:51 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 06:45:26 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
>> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >On Thursday, August 5, 2021 at 1:58:25 AM UTC-6, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
>> >> Not that either. 'Silica' usually means SiO2, silicium dioxide.
>> >> It really is very pure Silicium, the chemical element,
>> >> with some very small concentration of dopants,
>> >Silicon, not silicium.
>>
>> I have, in another post, brought up that I wrote "silicone" rather
>> than "silicon" in error, and that I recognize this error on my part.
>
>What does that have to do with JJ's confusion of the names of
>the element in different languages?

Unlike you, I am quite willing to admit error.

>
>How many times must you be told to discover the _context_ of
>a remark before you come down on it?
>
>And you had already been twitted for your breast implant obsession.

Sales of the Dow Corning mammary implants did augment my income for
several years, but the Dow Corning testicular and penile implants were
a bust in that aspect.

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 18:33:10 +0300, occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:

>On 04/08/2021 20:29, charles wrote:
>> In article <in009n...@mid.individual.net>, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>> On 2021-08-04 16:41:34 +0000, soup said:
>>
>>>> On 04/08/2021 09:04, charles wrote:
>>>>> In article <imutnb...@mid.individual.net>, occam
>>>>> <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>>>> A BBC news headline today:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Klaxon installed to warn at-risk homes"
>>>>>
>>>>>> Klaxon sounds like a trade mark, so I looked into its etymology.
>>>>>
>>>>>> From wiki:
>>>>>

>>>>>> "From the trademark Klaxon, based on Ancient Greek ????? (kl?z?,
>>>>>> ?make a sharp sound; scream?) (from Proto-Indo-European *glag- (?to
>>>>>> make a noise, clap, twitter?), from *gal- (?to roop, scream,

>>>>>> shout?)). The word was coined by Franklyn Hallett Lovell Jr., the

>>>>>> founder of the Lovell-McConnell Manufacturing Co. of Newark, New
>>>>>> Jersey, USA, which in 1908 obtained a licence of the patent to the
>>>>>> machine generating the sound from American inventor Miller Reese

>>>>>> Hutchison (1876?1944)."

>>>>>
>>>>>> The interesting part of that paragraph for me is the phrase "Ancient

>>>>>> Greek ????? (kl?z?, ?make a sharp sound; scream?)"
>>>>>

>>>>>> In modern Greek vernacular the word is used to mean "I fart".
>>>>>
>>>>> Klaxon became a "non-brand" term in WW2 in the UK where the equipment
>>>>> was used particularly in RAF bases. It's become a word like "Hoover"
>>>>> "Biro", etc.
>>>>>
>>>> Aren't these known as Generic terms ?
>>
>>> Yes, but that's not what the owners of the trademarks want you to think.

>>> They'd prefer that you write Xerox? (etc.), and then only if it's a real
>>> Xerox? photocopier.

>>
>> Xerox is/was not a photocopier. No photographic process is involved. That's
>> why it took off so quickly.
>>
>
>Photography - "writing with light" (Gk) does not have to involve a
>chemical process you are attributing to film and photographs.
>Photographers adopted the term as a short-hand way to describe the
>chemical process from exposure to print.
>
>Strictly, etching using a lazer beam is the purest form of writing with
>light.

Where is the "z" in Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of
Radiation?

[J. J. Lodder]

Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

> * J. J. Lodder:
>
> > > > Not that either. 'Silica' usually means SiO2, silicium dioxide.
> > >
> > > i.e. sand
> >
> > Yes, but no one ever calls sand that. [1]
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_casting#Silica_sand>
>
> > [1] And unfortunately for the semiconductor industry
> > 'sand' that consists of pure SiO2 is rare indeed.
> > There are alarmist tales that we may run out of it.
>
> Which one? I've heard of us running out of sand, but surely not of
> silicon. Of course, like other materials, silicon might get more
> expensive when easier to process sources run out.

The idea is that bulk silicon may become too expensive
for mass producing low-cost solar panels.
For things like billion-transistor computer chips
the material cost is of course irrelevant,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Your side of the pond only,
and perhaps some culturally subject territories,

Jan

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <in1fsq...@mid.individual.net>,

Ditto.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wol...@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

[Peter T. Daniels]

Dutch borrowed the obsolete term from English.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/silicium

[Ken Blake]

The element is called "Silicon," not "Silicium."

That's at least true in AmE. I'm not sure about BrE.


--
Ken

[Richard Heathfield]

On 05/08/2021 19:09, Ken Blake wrote:

<snip>

> The element is called "Silicon," not "Silicium."

Humphry Davy thought it was a metal, and coined the word "silicium" in 1808.

> That's at least true in AmE. I'm not sure about BrE.

In the UK most people I've heard use silic* generally misuse it.
"SiliCON" when they mean "siliCONE" etc etc.

[Paul Wolff]

On Thu, 5 Aug 2021, at 18:05:18, J. J. Lodder <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl>
posted:

Something I wrote over a decade ago:

Multicrystalline silicon wafers for use in solar cells by the
photovoltaic industry are conventionally cut from large ingots of
silicon metal that have been directionally solidified in a non-oxidising
atmosphere in square section crucibles. Pure quartz, chemically silicon
dioxide, is used as the crucible material as its softening point is
1660oC whilst the melting point of silicon metal is 1414oC and it
introduces few impurities into the molten silicon charge. Typical quartz
crucibles in use today hold 300kg or more of silicon. The silicon charge
is melted and then caused to cool in a controlled manner to
directionally solidify the silicon into the desired multicrystalline
ingot, which is then removed. The ingot is first sawn into blocks, and
these are then sliced into wafers.

My client had difficulty even back then in keeping down the cost of
multicrystalline silicon production, to compete with China and the like.
--
Paul

[Tak To]

On 8/4/2021 1:12 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
> On 8/4/2021 10:00 AM, Andy Leighton wrote:

>> On Wed, 4 Aug 2021 17:48:15 +0200,
>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>> On 2021-08-04 15:11:08 +0000, Ken Blake said:
>>>

>>>> On 8/4/2021 1:04 AM, charles wrote:
>>>>> In article <imutnb...@mid.individual.net>,
>>>>> occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>>>> A BBC news headline today:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Klaxon installed to warn at-risk homes"
>>>>>
>>>>>> Klaxon sounds like a trade mark, so I looked into its etymology.
>>>>>
>>>>>> From wiki:
>>>>>

>>>>>> "From the trademark Klaxon, based on Ancient Greek κλάζω (klαzς, ”make a
>>>>>> sharp sound; scream•) (from Proto-Indo-European *glag- (”to make a

>>>>>> noise, clap, twitter•), from *gal- (”to roop, scream, shout•)). The word

>>>>>> was coined by Franklyn Hallett Lovell Jr., the founder of the
>>>>>> Lovell-McConnell Manufacturing Co. of Newark, New Jersey, USA, which in
>>>>>> 1908 obtained a licence of the patent to the machine generating the

>>>>>> sound from American inventor Miller Reese Hutchison (1876—1944)."

>>>>>
>>>>>> The interesting part of that paragraph for me is the phrase "Ancient

>>>>>> Greek κλάζω (klαzς, ”make a sharp sound; scream•)"
>>>>>

>>>>>> In modern Greek vernacular the word is used to mean "I fart".
>>>>>
>>>>> Klaxon became a "non-brand" term in WW2 in the UK where the equipment was
>>>>> used particularly in RAF bases.
>>>>
>>>>

>>>> I know the word, but it's very seldom used in AmE.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>

>>>>> It's become a word like "Hoover" "Biro",
>>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>

>>>> ...in BrE, not in AmE. "Xerox" is used in AmE; is it used in BrE?
>>>
>>> Yes, but "xerox" rather than "Xerox".
>>

>> Whilst it is understood it is rarely used IME. Most often you hear
>> photocopy rather than xerox.
>
>
> "Xerox" is becoming less common in AmE too. I think "photocopy" or just
> "copy" have become more common.

Noun or verb? For the latter, I think "to make copy" is used
more often than either "to xerox" or "to photocopy". "To copy"
can be ambiguous.

--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

[Lewis]

In message <seh9u9$eno$1...@dont-email.me> Richard Heathfield <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
> On 05/08/2021 19:09, Ken Blake wrote:

> <snip>

>> The element is called "Silicon," not "Silicium."

> Humphry Davy thought it was a metal, and coined the word "silicium" in 1808.

Which doesn't matter because it is NOT the name of the element.

--
"In order to avoid being called a flirt, she always yielded easily."
Charles, Count Talleyrand

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 15:03:41 -0400, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx>
wrote:

>
>Noun or verb? For the latter, I think "to make copy" is used
>more often than either "to xerox" or "to photocopy". "To copy"
>can be ambiguous.

It's minor point, but it's "to make a copy", not "to make copy".

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Den 05-08-2021 kl. 21:20 skrev Tony Cooper:
> On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 15:03:41 -0400, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx>
> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Noun or verb? For the latter, I think "to make copy" is used
>> more often than either "to xerox" or "to photocopy". "To copy"
>> can be ambiguous.
>
> It's minor point, but it's "to make a copy", not "to make copy".

It's *a* minor point, Shirley?

/Anders, Denmark

[Peter T. Daniels]

No, Skitt. A perfect Skitt.

[Tony Cooper]

Petard. Hoisted.

[Sam Plusnet]

It's enough to make one skittish.

--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK

[Richard Heathfield]

But probably not enough for everybody.

[occam]

Zzzzzz....

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I'm too lasy to zay.
>>
>
> Zzzzzz....


--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

[Snidely]

On Thursday, Garrett Wollman pointed out that ...

> In article <in1fsq...@mid.individual.net>,
> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>> On 2021-08-04 18:09:20 +0000, Kerr-Mudd, John said:
>>> Not so much these days - "photocopied" is more transferable. Certainly
>>> 'Roneoed' is right out.
>>
>> Gestetnered, anyone?
>
> Ditto.
>

I made both types (although not often). (But how often in school we
were duped!)

-d

--
There's nothing inherently wrong with Big Data. What matters, as it
does for Arnold Lund in California or Richard Rothman in Baltimore, are
the questions -- old and new, good and bad -- this newest tool lets us
ask. (R. Lerhman, CSMonitor.com)

[Ross Clark]

On 5/08/2021 10:11 a.m., Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Aug 2021 19:09:20 +0100, "Kerr-Mudd, John" <ad...@127.0.0.1>

> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 4 Aug 2021 17:48:15 +0200

>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2021-08-04 15:11:08 +0000, Ken Blake said:
>>>

>>>> On 8/4/2021 1:04 AM, charles wrote:
>>>>> In article <imutnb...@mid.individual.net>,
>>>>> occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>>>> A BBC news headline today:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Klaxon installed to warn at-risk homes"
>>>>>
>>>>>> Klaxon sounds like a trade mark, so I looked into its etymology.
>>>>>
>>>>>> From wiki:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "From the trademark Klaxon, based on Ancient Greek ????? (kl?z?, ?make a
>>>>>> sharp sound; scream?) (from Proto-Indo-European *glag- (?to make a
>>>>>> noise, clap, twitter?), from *gal- (?to roop, scream, shout?)). The word
>>>>>> was coined by Franklyn Hallett Lovell Jr., the founder of the
>>>>>> Lovell-McConnell Manufacturing Co. of Newark, New Jersey, USA, which in
>>>>>> 1908 obtained a licence of the patent to the machine generating the
>>>>>> sound from American inventor Miller Reese Hutchison (1876?1944)."
>>>>>
>>>>>> The interesting part of that paragraph for me is the phrase "Ancient
>>>>>> Greek ????? (kl?z?, ?make a sharp sound; scream?)"
>>>>>
>>>>>> In modern Greek vernacular the word is used to mean "I fart".
>>>>>
>>>>> Klaxon became a "non-brand" term in WW2 in the UK where the equipment was
>>>>> used particularly in RAF bases.
>>>>
>>>>

>>>> I know the word, but it's very seldom used in AmE.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>

>>>>> It's become a word like "Hoover" "Biro",
>>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>

>>>> ...in BrE, not in AmE. "Xerox" is used in AmE; is it used in BrE?
>>>
>>> Yes, but "xerox" rather than "Xerox".
>>>
>>>

>> Not so much these days - "photocopied" is more transferable. Certainly 'Roneoed' is right out.
>

> At one time I worked for a company that had a "wet copier". (I forget
> the brand name)
>
> When the company leased a Xerox machine, the first week after it
> arrived employees made hundreds of copies just for the novelty of it.
> The increased cost angered management so much they had Xerox come back
> and install a code-operated system that required the user to enter a
> code that indicated who had made the copies.
>
> Every employee had a code number, and someone taped the code number
> for an unpopular employee on the machine, and everyone used that
> number.
>
> By the third week after installation the novelty had worn off and
> usage dropped to normal, but the increased lease charge for the code
> system continued.
>

In the first school I went to (two rooms, upstairs and downstairs, for
six grades; teacher came out on the front porch and rang a hand bell to
call kids back to class) there was a marvelous device called a
hectograph. You wrote or drew on (I think) ordinary paper with special
pens, then pressed the paper face down on a gelatin pad, into which the
ink soaked. You could then press more sheets of paper onto the pad and
take off (if the etymology is to be believed) up to a hundred copies --
in colour too! No electricity, no moving parts. Ancient technology? More
likely 19th century. Years later I saw in a magazine instructions for
how to make one of these yourself at home.

[occam]

On 04/08/2021 23:55, Sam Plusnet wrote:

> On 04-Aug-21 9:04, charles wrote:
>> In article <imutnb...@mid.individual.net>,
>>     occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>> A BBC news headline today:
>>
>>> "Klaxon installed to warn at-risk homes"
>>
>>> Klaxon sounds like a trade mark, so I looked into its etymology.
>>
>>>  From wiki:
>>

>>> "From the trademark Klaxon, based on Ancient Greek κλάζω (klαzς, ”make a
>>> sharp sound; scream•) (from Proto-Indo-European *glag- (”to make a

>>> noise, clap, twitter•), from *gal- (”to roop, scream, shout•)). The word

>>> was coined by Franklyn Hallett Lovell Jr., the founder of the
>>> Lovell-McConnell Manufacturing Co. of Newark, New Jersey, USA, which in
>>> 1908 obtained a licence of the patent to the machine generating the

>>> sound from American inventor Miller Reese Hutchison (1876—1944)."

>>
>>> The interesting part of that paragraph for me is the phrase "Ancient

>>> Greek κλάζω (klαzς, ”make a sharp sound; scream•)"
>>

>>> In modern Greek vernacular the word is used to mean "I fart".
>>
>> Klaxon became a "non-brand" term in WW2 in the UK where the equipment was

>> used particularly in RAF bases. It's become a word like "Hoover" "Biro",
>> etc.
>>
> You pretty much have to add "Tannoy" to that list.
>

Absolutely. In fact I cannot remember an alternative commonly used
phrase to "there was an announcement on the Tannoy" in the UK. "Public
announcement system" is so long winded from the nation that brought you
'bickies' 'siggies' and 'sannies', that it is practically unthinkable.

[Peter Moylan]

True, but the UK wasn't the only nation to come up with an announcement
system for the railways that guaranteed that nobody would understand the
announcements. Our loudspeakers weren't made by Tannoy, as far as I
know, but they had they had the same property of garbling the output.

As an extra guarantee of incomprehensibility, our railways had a policy
of hiring only people whose native language wasn't English.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[spains...@gmail.com]

"Loudspeaker" is an alternative to "Tannoy". There is also Polaroid to add
to the list - immortalised in this video:

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWgvGjAhvIw>

[musika]

Also known as a P.A. (Public Address System)

> "Public announcement system" is so long winded from the nation that
> brought you 'bickies' 'siggies' and 'sannies', that it is practically
> unthinkable.
>

Biccy, ciggy and sarnie are all British and I have never heard "Public
announcement system" over here.

--
Ray
UK

[spains...@gmail.com]

"Public address system".

[Peter T. Daniels]

AmE "on the P.A." We don't have Tannoys.

Likewise we barely have klaxons -- the word is associated with the sound
of antique automobile horns, the kind used in Gershwin's "An American in
Paris." The descriptions above suggest you are talking about "sirens."

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 14:11:51 +0300, occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:

>On 04/08/2021 23:55, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> On 04-Aug-21 9:04, charles wrote:
>>> In article <imutnb...@mid.individual.net>,
>>>     occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>> A BBC news headline today:
>>>
>>>> "Klaxon installed to warn at-risk homes"
>>>
>>>> Klaxon sounds like a trade mark, so I looked into its etymology.
>>>
>>>>  From wiki:
>>>

>>>> "From the trademark Klaxon, based on Ancient Greek ????? (kl?z?, ?make a
>>>> sharp sound; scream?) (from Proto-Indo-European *glag- (?to make a

>>>> noise, clap, twitter?), from *gal- (?to roop, scream, shout?)). The word

>>>> was coined by Franklyn Hallett Lovell Jr., the founder of the
>>>> Lovell-McConnell Manufacturing Co. of Newark, New Jersey, USA, which in
>>>> 1908 obtained a licence of the patent to the machine generating the

>>>> sound from American inventor Miller Reese Hutchison (1876?1944)."

>>>
>>>> The interesting part of that paragraph for me is the phrase "Ancient

>>>> Greek ????? (kl?z?, ?make a sharp sound; scream?)"
>>>

>>>> In modern Greek vernacular the word is used to mean "I fart".
>>>
>>> Klaxon became a "non-brand" term in WW2 in the UK where the equipment was
>>> used particularly in RAF bases. It's become a word like "Hoover" "Biro",
>>> etc.
>>>
>> You pretty much have to add "Tannoy" to that list.
>>
>
>Absolutely. In fact I cannot remember an alternative commonly used
>phrase to "there was an announcement on the Tannoy" in the UK. "Public
>announcement system" is so long winded from the nation that brought you
>'bickies' 'siggies' and 'sannies', that it is practically unthinkable.

There might be someone in the US who would refer to the "public
address system", but it is near-universally referred to as the "pa
system".

[Ken Blake]

As a speaker of AmE, I had to google "tannoy" to find out what it meant.
I don't remember ever seeing or hearing it.


I also had to google "bickies," "siggies," and "sannies." My guess was
that "siggies" was short for "cigarettes," but apparently I was wrong
and it's short for "signatures." Or was I right and Google is wrong?




--
Ken

[Jerry Friedman]

On Friday, August 6, 2021 at 7:54:33 AM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
> On 8/6/2021 4:11 AM, occam wrote:
> > On 04/08/2021 23:55, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> >> On 04-Aug-21 9:04, charles wrote:

...

> >>> Klaxon became a "non-brand" term in WW2 in the UK where the equipment was
> >>> used particularly in RAF bases. It's become a word like "Hoover" "Biro",
> >>> etc.
> >>>
> >> You pretty much have to add "Tannoy" to that list.
> >>
> >
> > Absolutely. In fact I cannot remember an alternative commonly used
> > phrase to "there was an announcement on the Tannoy" in the UK. "Public
> > announcement system" is so long winded from the nation that brought you
> > 'bickies' 'siggies' and 'sannies', that it is practically unthinkable.

> As a speaker of AmE, I had to google "tannoy" to find out what it meant.
> I don't remember ever seeing or hearing it.
>
>
> I also had to google "bickies," "siggies," and "sannies." My guess was
> that "siggies" was short for "cigarettes," but apparently I was wrong
> and it's short for "signatures." Or was I right and Google is wrong?

I suspect "ciggies" (also known in the U.S.) would be a more common
spelling for the abbreviation for "cigarettes". I'd seen "sarnies" but not
"sannies" for sandwiches, but what do I know about British baby-talk?

--
Jerry Friedman

[CDB]

On 8/6/2021 9:30 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>> Sam Plusnet wrote:

I blame the patriarchy.

[Tak To]

On 8/5/2021 3:20 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 15:03:41 -0400, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx>
> wrote:
>>
>> Noun or verb? For the latter, I think "to make copy" is used
>> more often than either "to xerox" or "to photocopy". "To copy"
>> can be ambiguous.
>
> It's minor point, but it's "to make a copy", not "to make copy".

I have considered writing out all the variances -- "to make a
copy", "to make copies", "to make some copies", "to make any
copy", etc... At the end, there were just too many of them.

Thus I chose "to make copy" as a "proto-phrase" (template,
pattern) that stands for all the variances. I expected (in
hindsight incorrectly) that competent English speakers would
recognize that it was meant as a proto-phrase rather than an
actual phrase, basing precisely on the fact that it is not
immediately usable as is.

I don't know of any convention that would make clear my
intention. Would "to make [a] copy/copies" be better?

You are being generous in saying that it is a minor point. It
is an error to use "to make copy" where "to make a copy" is
required. No offense is taken.

My question is, did me being an ESL speaker affect your
decision that it was a "minor point"? In other words, had
the opinion be made by a known native English, would you
have considered that "to make copy" was meant only as a
proto-phrase? TIA.

[Quinn C]

* Ross Clark:

> In the first school I went to (two rooms, upstairs and downstairs, for
> six grades; teacher came out on the front porch and rang a hand bell to
> call kids back to class) there was a marvelous device called a
> hectograph. You wrote or drew on (I think) ordinary paper with special
> pens, then pressed the paper face down on a gelatin pad, into which the
> ink soaked. You could then press more sheets of paper onto the pad and
> take off (if the etymology is to be believed) up to a hundred copies --
> in colour too! No electricity, no moving parts. Ancient technology? More
> likely 19th century. Years later I saw in a magazine instructions for
> how to make one of these yourself at home.

The hectograph had been genericized in German to talk about low-volume
non-professional printed materials like newsletters or zines, carrying
over into a time when they were in fact photocopied. But I guess it's
dying out now.

--
Behold, honored adversaries,
We are the instruments of your joyful death.
Consu war chant -- J. Scalzi, Old Man's War

[charles]

In article <tm13qrb2...@mid.crommatograph.info>,

Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> * Ross Clark:

> > In the first school I went to (two rooms, upstairs and downstairs, for
> > six grades; teacher came out on the front porch and rang a hand bell to
> > call kids back to class) there was a marvelous device called a
> > hectograph. You wrote or drew on (I think) ordinary paper with special
> > pens, then pressed the paper face down on a gelatin pad, into which the
> > ink soaked. You could then press more sheets of paper onto the pad and
> > take off (if the etymology is to be believed) up to a hundred copies
> > -- in colour too! No electricity, no moving parts. Ancient technology?
> > More likely 19th century. Years later I saw in a magazine instructions
> > for how to make one of these yourself at home.

> The hectograph had been genericized in German to talk about low-volume
> non-professional printed materials like newsletters or zines, carrying
> over into a time when they were in fact photocopied. But I guess it's
> dying out now.

A similar device was in use in the UK the trade name was 'Banda'.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[spains...@gmail.com]

Tak To, the joke is on you. (Meaning: "You are the winner"}.
Because in pointing out your error, Tony made the exact same
error himself - missing out an "a".

English is forgiving and welcomes people who try.

Correcting someone on their grammar by making a similar
error is known as "Skitt's Law", after a previous contributor
to this group.

[spains...@gmail.com]

Tony said: 'It's minor point, but it's "to make a copy", not "to
make copy".

Should have been 'It's A minor point" - which it is.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Friday, August 6, 2021 at 11:05:23 AM UTC-6, Tak To wrote:
> On 8/5/2021 3:20 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> > On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 15:03:41 -0400, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Noun or verb? For the latter, I think "to make copy" is used
> >> more often than either "to xerox" or "to photocopy". "To copy"
> >> can be ambiguous.
> >
> > It's minor point, but it's "to make a copy", not "to make copy".
> I have considered writing out all the variances -- "to make a
> copy", "to make copies", "to make some copies", "to make any
> copy", etc... At the end, there were just too many of them.
>
> Thus I chose "to make copy" as a "proto-phrase" (template,
> pattern) that stands for all the variances. I expected (in
> hindsight incorrectly) that competent English speakers would
> recognize that it was meant as a proto-phrase rather than an
> actual phrase, basing precisely on the fact that it is not
> immediately usable as is.
>
> I don't know of any convention that would make clear my
> intention. Would "to make [a] copy/copies" be better?

Yes, in my opinion, or one could write "variations on 'to make a
copy'", or "'to make a copy' and similar phrases", or similar phrases.

> You are being generous in saying that it is a minor point. It
> is an error to use "to make copy" where "to make a copy" is
> required. No offense is taken.
>
> My question is, did me being an ESL speaker affect your
> decision that it was a "minor point"? In other words, had
> the opinion be made by a known native English, would you
> have considered that "to make copy" was meant only as a
> proto-phrase? TIA.

Not speaking for Tony, but I'm not familiar with "proto-phrase"
(though it's understandable in this context), and I wouldn't expect
one that isn't grammatical in itself.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Ken Blake]

I can't speak for Tony, but I thought it was just a typo. Omitting a
word is a kind of typo I often make.


--
Ken

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 13:05:17 -0400, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx>

No, the fact that you are an ESL speaker didn't factor in.

I recognize that we often just bang out a post and don't proofread our
own posts. When there are mistakes, they are more likely to be
mistakes of carelessness rather than of ignorance. I consider those
to be minor errors.

I did exactly that in my reply omitting the "a" from "minor error".

It's different when writing that a company that files for bankruptcy
under Chapter 11 means the company has ceased operation. That's a
mistake of ignorance.

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 10:43:42 -0700 (PDT), "spains...@gmail.com"

Speaking of the joke being on the writer...the "a" should not be
capitalized and the ' should have been a ".

I briefly considered writing "the "a" should not be capitolized" just
to keep ball skittering through the thread.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, August 6, 2021 at 1:40:07 PM UTC-4, spains...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, August 6, 2021 at 6:05:23 PM UTC+1, Tak To wrote:

> > My question is, did me being an ESL speaker affect your
> > decision that it was a "minor point"? In other words, had
> > the opinion be made by a known native English, would you
> > have considered that "to make copy" was meant only as a
> > proto-phrase? TIA.
>
> Tak To, the joke is on you. (Meaning: "You are the winner"}.

That's the opposite of the meaning of "the joke's on you."

> Because in pointing out your error, Tony made the exact same
> error himself - missing out an "a".
>
> English is forgiving and welcomes people who try.
>
> Correcting someone on their grammar by making a similar
> error is known as "Skitt's Law", after a previous contributor
> to this group.

No, it's not. Skitt's Law says that when you correct someone
about _anything_, you'll make the same mistake in the correction.

[spains...@gmail.com]

Like missing an "a" out.

[spains...@gmail.com]

On Friday, August 6, 2021 at 8:22:58 PM UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, August 6, 2021 at 1:40:07 PM UTC-4, spains...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, August 6, 2021 at 6:05:23 PM UTC+1, Tak To wrote:
>
> > > My question is, did me being an ESL speaker affect your
> > > decision that it was a "minor point"? In other words, had
> > > the opinion be made by a known native English, would you
> > > have considered that "to make copy" was meant only as a
> > > proto-phrase? TIA.
> >
> > Tak To, the joke is on you. (Meaning: "You are the winner"}.
> That's the opposite of the meaning of "the joke's on you."

If you make a joke and the joke is shown to be rubbish, then

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

In the former USSR (Eastern Block in general?) I think the word was "Samizdat".
(1980's underground newssheets)
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[Quinn C]

* Kerr-Mudd, John:

Yes, but that just means "self-published" and doesn't suggest any
specific technology.

--
It was frequently the fastest way to find what he was looking
for, provided that he was looking for trouble.
-- L. McMaster Bujold, Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen

[Snidely]

Thus spake spains...@gmail.com:

That's not the usage I'm familiar with.

/dps

--
Killing a mouse was hardly a Nobel Prize-worthy exercise, and Lawrence
went apopleptic when he learned a lousy rodent had peed away all his
precious heavy water.
_The Disappearing Spoon_, Sam Kean

[Snidely]

Remember when occam bragged outrageously? That was Friday:

We do 2 syllables out West, also: "PA" (an initialism!)


/dps "no sheep for filling in the initialism"

--
Rule #0: Don't be on fire.
In case of fire, exit the building before tweeting about it.
(Sighting reported by Adam F)

[Snidely]

Snidely presented the following explanation :

Especially since I'm in the lagging timezone, and not an early riser.

-d

[Peter Moylan]

Proto-phrase is a new concept for me. Are there any known examples of
native English speakers using this device?

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Peter Moylan]

On 07/08/21 05:00, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 8/5/2021 3:20 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 15:03:41 -0400, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Noun or verb? For the latter, I think "to make copy" is used
>>>> more often than either "to xerox" or "to photocopy". "To copy"
>>>> can be ambiguous.
>>>
>>> It's minor point, but it's "to make a copy", not "to make copy".

> I can't speak for Tony, but I thought it was just a typo. Omitting a
> word is a kind of typo I often make.

I assumed that Tony had done it deliberately.

[Peter Moylan]

Which I always mentally translated into English as "same as that".

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Me too. And one of the words I omit most often is "not".


--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

[J. J. Lodder]

Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 06/08/21 22:11, occam wrote:
> > On 04/08/2021 23:55, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>
> >> You pretty much have to add "Tannoy" to that list.
> >
> > Absolutely. In fact I cannot remember an alternative commonly used
> > phrase to "there was an announcement on the Tannoy" in the UK.
> > "Public announcement system" is so long winded from the nation that
> > brought you 'bickies' 'siggies' and 'sannies', that it is practically
> > unthinkable.
>

> True, but the UK wasn't the only nation to come up with an announcement
> system for the railways that guaranteed that nobody would understand the
> announcements. Our loudspeakers weren't made by Tannoy, as far as I
> know, but they had they had the same property of garbling the output.
>
> As an extra guarantee of incomprehensibility, our railways had a policy
> of hiring only people whose native language wasn't English.

The sound can also be heard in its full glory in French
in the opening scene of 'Les Vacances de Monsieur Hulot'.
It doesn't make any difference,

Jan

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mReH1sxDApU&t=13s>

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Den 05-08-2021 kl. 22:37 skrev Tony Cooper:
> On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 22:01:05 +0200, "Anders D. Nygaard"
> <news2...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>> Den 05-08-2021 kl. 21:20 skrev Tony Cooper:
>>> On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 15:03:41 -0400, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Noun or verb? For the latter, I think "to make copy" is used
>>>> more often than either "to xerox" or "to photocopy". "To copy"
>>>> can be ambiguous.
>>>
>>> It's minor point, but it's "to make a copy", not "to make copy".
>>

>> It's *a* minor point, Shirley?
>
> Petard. Hoisted.

And I seem to have managed to produce a counterexample to Skitt's law!

/Anders, Denmark

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 09:42:59 +0200
Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

> On 2021-08-06 18:00:33 +0000, Ken Blake said:

[]

> >
> > I can't speak for Tony, but I thought it was just a typo. Omitting a
> > word is a kind of typo I often make.
>
> Me too. And one of the words I omit most often is "not".
>

Is this a not Me Too post?