info
Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
"Clashing Accents" and Ceasura: A Prosody Question
121 views
Skip to first unread message
grammarian1976
Sep 18, 2021, 2:01:46 AM9/18/21
to
Greetings,
Alfred Corn, in _The Poem's Heartbeat_ (2008), says that "[t]he
juxtaposition of . . . two strongly stressed syllables is sometimes
referred to as _clashing accents_, because the effect is very
marked" (p. 42).
In context, he is talking about the juxtaposition of two strongly
stressed syllables _between_ the metrical feet of a line of verse,
which would seem to exclude the spondee (or spondaic foot)
from consideration as a possible specimen of "clashing accents."
To my ear, a caesura (slight pause) seems to be created between
the two stressed syllables of "clashing accents," at least in iambic
lines. That is, before the stressed syllable of the first beat of the
inverted foot, I hear a pause -- one which strikes me as required.
My question: Is this right? Do clashing accents always create caesuras?
It would appear that Corn doesn't think so, though he doesn't seem to
address the matter. I infer that he doesn't think so from Example 3
below, which I am inclined to scan slightly differently from him.
Example 1 (Shakespeare, Sonnet 30)
Here I hear the pause between foot 2 (iambic) and foot 3 (trochaic):
"For PRE | cious FRIENDS || HID in | death's DATE | less NIGHT"
Example 2 (Shakespeare, Sonnet 85)
Here Corn himself indicates caesura btwn ft 3 (iambic) & ft 4 (trochaic):
"While COMM | ments OF | your PRAISE | | RICH ly | com PIL'D"
Example 3 (William Morris, _The Life and Death of Jason_, Book II)
Corn: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | but NOUGHT | WITT ing"
Me: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | BUT nought | WITT ing"
In my scansion of Example 3, there are two consecutive trochaic
substutions at the end of a iambic line. That might raise some eyebrows,
but it sounds natural to me. Here is why I think this question is important.
Without caesura, clashing accents in duple meter would sound spondaic.
Thank you.
Alfred Corn, in _The Poem's Heartbeat_ (2008), says that "[t]he
juxtaposition of . . . two strongly stressed syllables is sometimes
referred to as _clashing accents_, because the effect is very
marked" (p. 42).
In context, he is talking about the juxtaposition of two strongly
stressed syllables _between_ the metrical feet of a line of verse,
which would seem to exclude the spondee (or spondaic foot)
from consideration as a possible specimen of "clashing accents."
To my ear, a caesura (slight pause) seems to be created between
the two stressed syllables of "clashing accents," at least in iambic
lines. That is, before the stressed syllable of the first beat of the
inverted foot, I hear a pause -- one which strikes me as required.
My question: Is this right? Do clashing accents always create caesuras?
It would appear that Corn doesn't think so, though he doesn't seem to
address the matter. I infer that he doesn't think so from Example 3
below, which I am inclined to scan slightly differently from him.
Example 1 (Shakespeare, Sonnet 30)
Here I hear the pause between foot 2 (iambic) and foot 3 (trochaic):
"For PRE | cious FRIENDS || HID in | death's DATE | less NIGHT"
Example 2 (Shakespeare, Sonnet 85)
Here Corn himself indicates caesura btwn ft 3 (iambic) & ft 4 (trochaic):
"While COMM | ments OF | your PRAISE | | RICH ly | com PIL'D"
Example 3 (William Morris, _The Life and Death of Jason_, Book II)
Corn: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | but NOUGHT | WITT ing"
Me: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | BUT nought | WITT ing"
In my scansion of Example 3, there are two consecutive trochaic
substutions at the end of a iambic line. That might raise some eyebrows,
but it sounds natural to me. Here is why I think this question is important.
Without caesura, clashing accents in duple meter would sound spondaic.
Thank you.
Peter T. Daniels
Sep 18, 2021, 9:48:37 AM9/18/21
to
On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 2:01:46 AM UTC-4, grammar...@gmail.com wrote:
> Example 3 (William Morris, _The Life and Death of Jason_, Book II)
> Corn: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | but NOUGHT | WITT ing"
> Me: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | BUT nought | WITT ing"
Whyever would you stress "but" in that line? "Nought" is the important word.
> Example 3 (William Morris, _The Life and Death of Jason_, Book II)
> Corn: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | but NOUGHT | WITT ing"
> Me: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | BUT nought | WITT ing"
> In my scansion of Example 3, there are two consecutive trochaic
> substutions at the end of a iambic line. That might raise some eyebrows,
> but it sounds natural to me. Here is why I think this question is important.
> Without caesura, clashing accents in duple meter would sound spondaic.
got to the University of Chicago in 1972, I was surprised to learn that a
street in the neighborhood was called CORnell Avenue - having just come
from corNELL University. I then realized that for four years I'd been saying
corNELL University but CORnell Glee Club, and wondered whether phonologists
of English had recognized this phenomenon. (They had.)
CDB
Sep 18, 2021, 10:19:10 AM9/18/21
to
On 9/18/2021 9:48 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> grammar...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Example 3 (William Morris, _The Life and Death of Jason_, Book II)
>> Corn: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | but NOUGHT | WITT ing"
>> Me: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | BUT nought | WITT ing"
> Whyever would you stress "but" in that line? "Nought" is the
> important word.
Interesting that you could make the line regular by substituting the
> grammar...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Example 3 (William Morris, _The Life and Death of Jason_, Book II)
>> Corn: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | but NOUGHT | WITT ing"
>> Me: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | BUT nought | WITT ing"
> Whyever would you stress "but" in that line? "Nought" is the
> important word.
non-archaic "nothing" for "nought". Maybe Moris didn't like a chain of
"-ings" either.
Jerry Friedman
Sep 18, 2021, 10:44:40 AM9/18/21
to
On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 8:19:10 AM UTC-6, CDB wrote:
> On 9/18/2021 9:48 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > grammar...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >> Example 3 (William Morris, _The Life and Death of Jason_, Book II)
> >> Corn: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | but NOUGHT | WITT ing"
> >> Me: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | BUT nought | WITT ing"
>
> > Whyever would you stress "but" in that line? "Nought" is the
> > important word.
> Interesting that you could make the line regular by substituting the
> non-archaic "nothing" for "nought". Maybe Moris didn't like a chain of
> "-ings" either.
...
> On 9/18/2021 9:48 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > grammar...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >> Example 3 (William Morris, _The Life and Death of Jason_, Book II)
> >> Corn: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | but NOUGHT | WITT ing"
> >> Me: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | BUT nought | WITT ing"
>
> > Whyever would you stress "but" in that line? "Nought" is the
> > important word.
> Interesting that you could make the line regular by substituting the
> non-archaic "nothing" for "nought". Maybe Moris didn't like a chain of
> "-ings" either.
Or "but witting nought" (or "not"), but apparently it's a light rhyme.
... some men say
That in Amphytrion's bed my mother lay
When I was gotten; and yet other some
Say that a god upon that night did come,
(Whose name I speak not), like unto the king,
With whom Alcmena played, but nought witting.
Maybe Morris thought of it as "witTING", a wrenched rhyme.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
Sep 18, 2021, 10:56:36 AM9/18/21
to
On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 10:19:10 AM UTC-4, CDB wrote:
> On 9/18/2021 9:48 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > grammar...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >> Example 3 (William Morris, _The Life and Death of Jason_, Book II)
> >> Corn: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | but NOUGHT | WITT ing"
> >> Me: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | BUT nought | WITT ing"
>
> > Whyever would you stress "but" in that line? "Nought" is the
> > important word.
>
> Interesting that you could make the line regular by substituting the
> non-archaic "nothing" for "nought". Maybe Moris didn't like a chain of
> "-ings" either.
Morris didn't care for "non-archaic"? (Also that would eliminate the
> On 9/18/2021 9:48 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > grammar...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >> Example 3 (William Morris, _The Life and Death of Jason_, Book II)
> >> Corn: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | but NOUGHT | WITT ing"
> >> Me: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | BUT nought | WITT ing"
>
> > Whyever would you stress "but" in that line? "Nought" is the
> > important word.
>
> Interesting that you could make the line regular by substituting the
> non-archaic "nothing" for "nought". Maybe Moris didn't like a chain of
> "-ings" either.
desired caesura.)
I tried reading one or two of his fantasies when Lin Carter reprinted
them in his series that attempted to resurrect Modern Fantasy "classics"
in the wake of Tolkien's success. They were quite unreadable when
separated from his fonts and his marginal decorations -- the visual
appeal distracted from the atrocious writing.,
grammarian1976
Sep 18, 2021, 12:52:23 PM9/18/21
to
grammarian1976
Sep 18, 2021, 1:16:53 PM9/18/21
to
I knew nothing of William Morris or that poem when citing that line, which
is cited in Corn where he discusses trochaic sustitutions in various feet of
iambic lines. Shakespeare's Sonnet 30, on the other hand, I just memorized.
Setting aside the problem of whether caesura proper is involved in cases
of "clashing accents" in verse, I can best express my question using a musical
analogy. When I analyze meter as spoken, I imagine the beat of a metronome falling
on the stressed syllable of a given foot of verse (spondaic and pyrhhic feet excepted).
Normally, then, no matter the meter, there will be at least one syllable between
each beat of the metronome. But with clashing accents (two juxtaposed stressed
syllables, one at the end of a foot, the next at the beginning of the next foot) I hear
a delay, there being _no syllable between the two beats of the metronome_.
Am I going astray in analyzing and hearing the metrical feet thus? That is the essence
of my question. Incidentally, I just returned to Emma Lazarus's "The New Colossus" and
analyzed it with my new prosodic toolkit. I was interested to find two lines with pyrrhic-spondee
combos (in whose spondees I hear no pause) and one with clashing accents (in which I do hear a pause).
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46550/the-new-colossus
line 7 (pyrrhic-spondee): "glows WORLD- | wide WEL | come; | | her | MILD EYES | co MMAND"
line 8 (pyrrhic-spondee): "the AIR- | bridged HAR | bor | | that | TWIN CIT | ies FRAME"
line 11 (clashing accents): "with SI | lent LIPS. | | 'GIVE me | your TIRED | your POOR, . . .'"
Peter T. Daniels
Sep 18, 2021, 2:03:17 PM9/18/21
to
On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 1:16:53 PM UTC-4, grammar...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 7:44:40 AM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 8:19:10 AM UTC-6, CDB wrote:
> > > On 9/18/2021 9:48 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > grammar...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >> Example 3 (William Morris, _The Life and Death of Jason_, Book II)
> > > >> Corn: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | but NOUGHT | WITT ing"
> > > >> Me: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | BUT nought | WITT ing"
> > > > Whyever would you stress "but" in that line? "Nought" is the
> > > > important word.
> > > Interesting that you could make the line regular by substituting the
> > > non-archaic "nothing" for "nought". Maybe Moris didn't like a chain of
> > > "-ings" either.
> On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 7:44:40 AM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 8:19:10 AM UTC-6, CDB wrote:
> > > On 9/18/2021 9:48 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > grammar...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >> Example 3 (William Morris, _The Life and Death of Jason_, Book II)
> > > >> Corn: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | but NOUGHT | WITT ing"
> > > >> Me: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | BUT nought | WITT ing"
> > > > Whyever would you stress "but" in that line? "Nought" is the
> > > > important word.
> > > Interesting that you could make the line regular by substituting the
> > > non-archaic "nothing" for "nought". Maybe Moris didn't like a chain of
> > > "-ings" either.
> > Or "but witting nought" (or "not"), but apparently it's a light rhyme.
> >
> > ... some men say
> > That in Amphytrion's bed my mother lay
> > When I was gotten; and yet other some
> > Say that a god upon that night did come,
> > (Whose name I speak not), like unto the king,
> > With whom Alcmena played, but nought witting.
>
> Nice. It does make a difference to see the line in context. I must say that
> I knew nothing of William Morris or that poem when citing that line, which
> is cited in Corn where he discusses trochaic sustitutions in various feet of
> iambic lines. Shakespeare's Sonnet 30, on the other hand, I just memorized.
>
> Setting aside the problem of whether caesura proper is involved in cases
> of "clashing accents" in verse, I can best express my question using a musical
> analogy. When I analyze meter as spoken, I imagine the beat of a metronome falling
> on the stressed syllable of a given foot of verse (spondaic and pyrhhic feet excepted).
>
> Normally, then, no matter the meter, there will be at least one syllable between
> each beat of the metronome. But with clashing accents (two juxtaposed stressed
> syllables, one at the end of a foot, the next at the beginning of the next foot) I hear
> a delay, there being _no syllable between the two beats of the metronome_.
You know about "syllable-timed" vs. "stress-timed" languages, of course?
> >
> > ... some men say
> > That in Amphytrion's bed my mother lay
> > When I was gotten; and yet other some
> > Say that a god upon that night did come,
> > (Whose name I speak not), like unto the king,
> > With whom Alcmena played, but nought witting.
>
> Nice. It does make a difference to see the line in context. I must say that
> I knew nothing of William Morris or that poem when citing that line, which
> is cited in Corn where he discusses trochaic sustitutions in various feet of
> iambic lines. Shakespeare's Sonnet 30, on the other hand, I just memorized.
>
> Setting aside the problem of whether caesura proper is involved in cases
> of "clashing accents" in verse, I can best express my question using a musical
> analogy. When I analyze meter as spoken, I imagine the beat of a metronome falling
> on the stressed syllable of a given foot of verse (spondaic and pyrhhic feet excepted).
>
> Normally, then, no matter the meter, there will be at least one syllable between
> each beat of the metronome. But with clashing accents (two juxtaposed stressed
> syllables, one at the end of a foot, the next at the beginning of the next foot) I hear
> a delay, there being _no syllable between the two beats of the metronome_.
The former give equal time to each syllable (or maybe to each mora; the
languages where it was first identified don't use moras), the latter pronounce
stressed syllables at equal intervals. English is stress-timed, Latin (for instance)
is syllable-timed. I explained this to a friend in Chicago who directed a Schola
Cantorum, specializing in chant from lots of traditions, but at services they had
to chant English canticles and such -- and there was an immediate improvement
in the intelligibility of the words when he started doing something different with
his conducting gestures. (I don't know whether he gave his singers an explanation
in rehearsal; they were all professional singers accustomed to working in many
genres.)
That may be why two radio people sound odd when signing off: their English
is unaccented, but Franco Ordoñez (NPR) and Rebecca Ibarra (WNYC)
always leave big spaces in their names, even though the sullable on either
side is unstressed. P"resumably they grew up bilingual, and code-switch
for their names, and the extra time for the -o and -a sound to me like a space?
(And it drives me crazy when the anchor introduces her with two American
r's, instead of the tap and the roll respectively.)
> Am I going astray in analyzing and hearing the metrical feet thus? That is the essence
> of my question. Incidentally, I just returned to Emma Lazarus's "The New Colossus" and
> analyzed it with my new prosodic toolkit. I was interested to find two lines with pyrrhic-spondee
> combos (in whose spondees I hear no pause) and one with clashing accents (in which I do hear a pause).
> https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46550/the-new-colossus
> line 7 (pyrrhic-spondee): "glows WORLD- | wide WEL | come; | | her | MILD EYES | co MMAND"
> line 8 (pyrrhic-spondee): "the AIR- | bridged HAR | bor | | that | TWIN CIT | ies FRAME"
> line 11 (clashing accents): "with SI | lent LIPS. | | 'GIVE me | your TIRED | your POOR, . . .'"
- hopefully you don't stress the "of" to make the meter "come out right"?
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
- no less than five lines of enjambement follow. This seems unusual.
- and then starting the sestet, before the 4 1/2-line peroration
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
- you missed this one! It sure ain't mo-THER of EX-iles
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
- not Minneapolis-St.Paul, but Brooklyn and New York
- calling them the "twin cities" wasn't a thing and didn't catch on
“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
- of course there's a space ("caesura") between the sentences!
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
unusual rhyme scheme, too: ABBAABBA CDCDCD
[hyphens because GG may not respect leading space characters]
CDB
Sep 19, 2021, 7:54:43 AM9/19/21
to
>> Jerry Friedman wrote:
In both cases, the given name ends in an unstressed vowel and the family
name begins with one. In Spanish, as you know but maybe not everyone
does, the two vowels would be pronounced together as one syllable; the
radio people might fear that Anglos wouldn't get their names right that
way. Frank Ordoñez, Rebec Aybarra.
name begins with one. In Spanish, as you know but maybe not everyone
does, the two vowels would be pronounced together as one syllable; the
radio people might fear that Anglos wouldn't get their names right that
way. Frank Ordoñez, Rebec Aybarra.
CDB
Sep 19, 2021, 8:15:58 AM9/19/21
to
On 9/18/2021 10:56 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
would be pie* to him.
*I see that that idiom, American from the Nineteenth and early Twentieth
Centuries as far as I know, isn't much covered in the dics I consulted
at Onelook. It may be connected to "sweet as pie" (partly defined as
"extremely pleasant" in the Oxford) or "pie in the sky" (a wish or
promise - empty in the case of that idiom - in the AHD). It has the
feel of Twain to it.
> I tried reading one or two of his fantasies when Lin Carter
> reprinted them in his series that attempted to resurrect Modern
> Fantasy "classics" in the wake of Tolkien's success. They were quite
> unreadable when separated from his fonts and his marginal decorations
> -- the visual appeal distracted from the atrocious writing.,
You win some, you lose some.
[...]
> CDB wrote:
>> Peter T. Daniels wrote grammar...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> Example 3 (William Morris, _The Life and Death of Jason_, Book
>>>> II) Corn: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | but NOUGHT |
>>>> WITT ing" Me: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | BUT nought |
>>>> WITT ing"
>>> Whyever would you stress "but" in that line? "Nought" is the
>>> important word.
>> Interesting that you could make the line regular by substituting
>> the non-archaic "nothing" for "nought". Maybe Moris didn't like a
>> chain of "-ings" either.
> Morris didn't care for "non-archaic"? (Also that would eliminate the
> desired caesura.)
Au contraire, mon vieux. The archaism or dialectal status of "nought"
>> Peter T. Daniels wrote grammar...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> Example 3 (William Morris, _The Life and Death of Jason_, Book
>>>> II) Corn: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | but NOUGHT |
>>>> WITT ing" Me: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | BUT nought |
>>>> WITT ing"
>>> Whyever would you stress "but" in that line? "Nought" is the
>>> important word.
>> Interesting that you could make the line regular by substituting
>> the non-archaic "nothing" for "nought". Maybe Moris didn't like a
>> chain of "-ings" either.
> Morris didn't care for "non-archaic"? (Also that would eliminate the
> desired caesura.)
would be pie* to him.
*I see that that idiom, American from the Nineteenth and early Twentieth
Centuries as far as I know, isn't much covered in the dics I consulted
at Onelook. It may be connected to "sweet as pie" (partly defined as
"extremely pleasant" in the Oxford) or "pie in the sky" (a wish or
promise - empty in the case of that idiom - in the AHD). It has the
feel of Twain to it.
> I tried reading one or two of his fantasies when Lin Carter
> reprinted them in his series that attempted to resurrect Modern
> Fantasy "classics" in the wake of Tolkien's success. They were quite
> unreadable when separated from his fonts and his marginal decorations
> -- the visual appeal distracted from the atrocious writing.,
[...]
Peter Moylan
Sep 19, 2021, 8:33:04 AM9/19/21
to
On 19/09/21 23:15, CDB wrote:
>
> Au contraire, mon vieux. The archaism or dialectal status of
> "nought" would be pie* to him.
>
> *I see that that idiom, American from the Nineteenth and early
> Twentieth Centuries as far as I know, isn't much covered in the dics
> I consulted at Onelook. It may be connected to "sweet as pie"
> (partly defined as "extremely pleasant" in the Oxford) or "pie in the
> sky" (a wish or promise - empty in the case of that idiom - in the
> AHD). It has the feel of Twain to it.
I don't know that idiom, but I'd like to add the "pie in the sky" is a
>
> Au contraire, mon vieux. The archaism or dialectal status of
> "nought" would be pie* to him.
>
> *I see that that idiom, American from the Nineteenth and early
> Twentieth Centuries as far as I know, isn't much covered in the dics
> I consulted at Onelook. It may be connected to "sweet as pie"
> (partly defined as "extremely pleasant" in the Oxford) or "pie in the
> sky" (a wish or promise - empty in the case of that idiom - in the
> AHD). It has the feel of Twain to it.
relatively new invention. It's from the song "The Preacher and the
Slave" (1911) by Joe Hill, and there it definitely refers to an empty
promise: don't worry that you're starving now, because you'll get your
pie when you die and go up to heaven.
The song is a parody of a Salvation Army hymn, and is still worth singing.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Peter T. Daniels
Sep 19, 2021, 10:12:16 AM9/19/21
to
On Sunday, September 19, 2021 at 8:15:58 AM UTC-4, CDB wrote:
> On 9/18/2021 10:56 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > CDB wrote:
> >> Peter T. Daniels wrote grammar...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> Example 3 (William Morris, _The Life and Death of Jason_, Book
> >>>> II) Corn: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | but NOUGHT |
> >>>> WITT ing" Me: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | BUT nought |
> >>>> WITT ing"
>
> >>> Whyever would you stress "but" in that line? "Nought" is the
> >>> important word.
> >> Interesting that you could make the line regular by substituting
> >> the non-archaic "nothing" for "nought". Maybe Moris didn't like a
> >> chain of "-ings" either.
>
> > Morris didn't care for "non-archaic"? (Also that would eliminate the
> > desired caesura.)
>
> Au contraire, mon vieux. The archaism or dialectal status of "nought"
> would be pie* to him.
Which is why he _would_ use "nought" and not "nothing."
> On 9/18/2021 10:56 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > CDB wrote:
> >> Peter T. Daniels wrote grammar...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> Example 3 (William Morris, _The Life and Death of Jason_, Book
> >>>> II) Corn: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | but NOUGHT |
> >>>> WITT ing" Me: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | BUT nought |
> >>>> WITT ing"
>
> >>> Whyever would you stress "but" in that line? "Nought" is the
> >>> important word.
> >> Interesting that you could make the line regular by substituting
> >> the non-archaic "nothing" for "nought". Maybe Moris didn't like a
> >> chain of "-ings" either.
>
> > Morris didn't care for "non-archaic"? (Also that would eliminate the
> > desired caesura.)
>
> Au contraire, mon vieux. The archaism or dialectal status of "nought"
> would be pie* to him.
> *I see that that idiom, American from the Nineteenth and early Twentieth
> Centuries as far as I know, isn't much covered in the dics I consulted
> at Onelook. It may be connected to "sweet as pie" (partly defined as
> "extremely pleasant" in the Oxford) or "pie in the sky" (a wish or
> promise - empty in the case of that idiom - in the AHD). It has the
> feel of Twain to it.
Ken Blake
Sep 19, 2021, 12:00:17 PM9/19/21
to
Try to tell you what's wrong and what's right
But when asked how 'bout something to eat
They will answer in voices so sweet
You will eat, bye and bye
In that glorious land above the sky
Work and pray, live on hay
You'll get pie in the sky when you die (That's a lie)
--
Ken
Rich Ulrich
Sep 19, 2021, 1:23:21 PM9/19/21
to
On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 08:15:52 -0400, CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 9/18/2021 10:56 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> CDB wrote:
>>> Peter T. Daniels wrote grammar...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>>>> Example 3 (William Morris, _The Life and Death of Jason_, Book
>>>>> II) Corn: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | but NOUGHT |
>>>>> WITT ing" Me: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | BUT nought |
>>>>> WITT ing"
>
>>>> Whyever would you stress "but" in that line? "Nought" is the
>>>> important word.
>
>>> Interesting that you could make the line regular by substituting
>>> the non-archaic "nothing" for "nought". Maybe Moris didn't like a
>>> chain of "-ings" either.
>
>> Morris didn't care for "non-archaic"? (Also that would eliminate the
>> desired caesura.)
>
>Au contraire, mon vieux. The archaism or dialectal status of "nought"
>would be pie* to him.
>
>*I see that that idiom, American from the Nineteenth and early Twentieth
>Centuries as far as I know, isn't much covered in the dics I consulted
>at Onelook. It may be connected to "sweet as pie" (partly defined as
>"extremely pleasant" in the Oxford) or "pie in the sky" (a wish or
>promise - empty in the case of that idiom - in the AHD). It has the
>feel of Twain to it.
"would be pie to him" strikes me as odd.
>On 9/18/2021 10:56 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> CDB wrote:
>>> Peter T. Daniels wrote grammar...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>>>> Example 3 (William Morris, _The Life and Death of Jason_, Book
>>>>> II) Corn: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | but NOUGHT |
>>>>> WITT ing" Me: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | BUT nought |
>>>>> WITT ing"
>
>>>> Whyever would you stress "but" in that line? "Nought" is the
>>>> important word.
>
>>> Interesting that you could make the line regular by substituting
>>> the non-archaic "nothing" for "nought". Maybe Moris didn't like a
>>> chain of "-ings" either.
>
>> Morris didn't care for "non-archaic"? (Also that would eliminate the
>> desired caesura.)
>
>Au contraire, mon vieux. The archaism or dialectal status of "nought"
>would be pie* to him.
>
>*I see that that idiom, American from the Nineteenth and early Twentieth
>Centuries as far as I know, isn't much covered in the dics I consulted
>at Onelook. It may be connected to "sweet as pie" (partly defined as
>"extremely pleasant" in the Oxford) or "pie in the sky" (a wish or
>promise - empty in the case of that idiom - in the AHD). It has the
>feel of Twain to it.
What I know is, "as easy as pie." Google --
"As easy as pie" is a popular colloquial idiom and simile which is
used to describe a task or experience as pleasurable and simple. The
phrase is often interchanged with piece of cake, which shares the
same connotation. Wikipedia
>
>> I tried reading one or two of his fantasies when Lin Carter
>> reprinted them in his series that attempted to resurrect Modern
>> Fantasy "classics" in the wake of Tolkien's success. They were quite
>> unreadable when separated from his fonts and his marginal decorations
>> -- the visual appeal distracted from the atrocious writing.,
>
>You win some, you lose some.
>
>[...]
Rich Ulrich
Quinn C
Sep 19, 2021, 2:13:13 PM9/19/21
to
* Rich Ulrich:
> "As easy as pie" is a popular colloquial idiom and simile which is
> used to describe a task or experience as pleasurable and simple. The
> phrase is often interchanged with piece of cake, which shares the
> same connotation.
I tried "element of torte", but wasn't understood.
--
I don't see people ... as having a right to be idiots. It's
just impractical to try to stop them, unless they're hurting
somebody. -- Vicereine Cordelia
in L. McMaster Bujold, Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen
> "As easy as pie" is a popular colloquial idiom and simile which is
> used to describe a task or experience as pleasurable and simple. The
> phrase is often interchanged with piece of cake, which shares the
> same connotation.
--
I don't see people ... as having a right to be idiots. It's
just impractical to try to stop them, unless they're hurting
somebody. -- Vicereine Cordelia
in L. McMaster Bujold, Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen
CDB
Sep 20, 2021, 7:48:36 AM9/20/21
to
On 9/19/2021 10:12 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> CDB wrote:
>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> CDB wrote:
>>>> Peter T. Daniels wrote grammar...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> Example 3 (William Morris, _The Life and Death of Jason_,
>>>>>> Book II) Corn: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | but
>>>>>> NOUGHT | WITT ing" Me: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | |
>>>>>> BUT nought | WITT ing"
>>>>> Whyever would you stress "but" in that line? "Nought" is the
>>>>> important word.
>>>> Interesting that you could make the line regular by
>>>> substituting the non-archaic "nothing" for "nought". Maybe
>>>> Moris didn't like a chain of "-ings" either.
>>> Morris didn't care for "non-archaic"? (Also that would eliminate
>>> the desired caesura.)
Why "desired"?
> CDB wrote:
>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> CDB wrote:
>>>> Peter T. Daniels wrote grammar...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> Example 3 (William Morris, _The Life and Death of Jason_,
>>>>>> Book II) Corn: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | | but
>>>>>> NOUGHT | WITT ing" Me: "With WHOM | alc ME | na PLAYED, | |
>>>>>> BUT nought | WITT ing"
>>>>> Whyever would you stress "but" in that line? "Nought" is the
>>>>> important word.
>>>> Interesting that you could make the line regular by
>>>> substituting the non-archaic "nothing" for "nought". Maybe
>>>> Moris didn't like a chain of "-ings" either.
>>> Morris didn't care for "non-archaic"? (Also that would eliminate
>>> the desired caesura.)
>> Au contraire, mon vieux. The archaism or dialectal status of
>> "nought" would be pie* to him.
> Which is why he _would_ use "nought" and not "nothing."
hadn't occurred to him. He did use standard English quite a lot of the time.
CDB
Sep 20, 2021, 8:08:42 AM9/20/21
to
On 9/19/2021 7:32 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> CDB wrote:
>> Au contraire, mon vieux. The archaism or dialectal status of
>> "nought" would be pie* to him.
>> *I see that that idiom, American from the Nineteenth and early
>> Twentieth Centuries as far as I know, isn't much covered in the
>> dics I consulted at Onelook. It may be connected to "sweet as
>> pie" (partly defined as "extremely pleasant" in the Oxford) or "pie
>> in the sky" (a wish or promise - empty in the case of that idiom -
>> in the AHD). It has the feel of Twain to it.
> I don't know that idiom, but I'd like to add the "pie in the sky" is
> a relatively new invention.
Then Twain or the other user didn't think of the song, but I can.
> CDB wrote:
>> Au contraire, mon vieux. The archaism or dialectal status of
>> "nought" would be pie* to him.
>> *I see that that idiom, American from the Nineteenth and early
>> Twentieth Centuries as far as I know, isn't much covered in the
>> dics I consulted at Onelook. It may be connected to "sweet as
>> pie" (partly defined as "extremely pleasant" in the Oxford) or "pie
>> in the sky" (a wish or promise - empty in the case of that idiom -
>> in the AHD). It has the feel of Twain to it.
> I don't know that idiom, but I'd like to add the "pie in the sky" is
> a relatively new invention.
> It's from the song "The Preacher and the Slave" (1911) by Joe Hill,
> and there it definitely refers to an empty promise: don't worry that
> you're starving now, because you'll get your pie when you die and go
> up to heaven.
(Brecht/Blitzstein, _The Threepenny Opera_)
For the convenience of anybody who wants to listen, I include the song,
"How to Survive" from Youtube. I have heard a newer translation and
thought it good, but my parents had the Off-Broadway LP and I played it
quite a lot; so this version is what I like best.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IrWjoP5618&list=PLx252NeXW5_o0KzqypNeptPmI6NYBuC-d&index=17>
CDB
Sep 20, 2021, 8:37:30 AM9/20/21
to
On 9/19/2021 1:23 PM, Rich Ulrich wrote:
I guess the idiom died out after WWI.
OTOH, having bestirred myself, I find a use of it from 2021 at Gooboo:
"Poppy whistled all the time he was at work. It was pie to him." _Poppy
Ott's Seven-League Stilts_
I concede that the use there could be read as meaning "easy", but I
suppose the connection might be the idea that an easy task is a sweet one.
I also found at least one example from Twain that seems to have the
meaning I suggested, and one that reinforces the connection with sweetness:
"Well, then, of course it annoyed me to hear him say he preferred
asteroids to anything else,/they were just pie to him."
"and you're always as polite as pie to them; and by and by they fall in
love with you"
I stopped then, but the really curious can try what I did and search on
"Mark Twain 'pie to'".
OTOH, having bestirred myself, I find a use of it from 2021 at Gooboo:
"Poppy whistled all the time he was at work. It was pie to him." _Poppy
Ott's Seven-League Stilts_
I concede that the use there could be read as meaning "easy", but I
suppose the connection might be the idea that an easy task is a sweet one.
I also found at least one example from Twain that seems to have the
meaning I suggested, and one that reinforces the connection with sweetness:
"Well, then, of course it annoyed me to hear him say he preferred
asteroids to anything else,/they were just pie to him."
"and you're always as polite as pie to them; and by and by they fall in
love with you"
I stopped then, but the really curious can try what I did and search on
"Mark Twain 'pie to'".
Ken Blake
Sep 21, 2021, 12:01:28 PM9/21/21
to
name of that song in English is "What keeps a Man Alive." I also have a
recording in German, "Den wovon lebt der Mensch."
I've seen the original off-broadway production with Lotta Lenys, and
also two other productions. The Blitzstein translation was the first one
to me, so it's the one I know best, but I think some of the songs were
better translated in later versions, for example
"The world is poor and man's a shit
and that is all there is to it,"
etc.
--
Ken
Peter T. Daniels
Sep 21, 2021, 12:23:34 PM9/21/21
to
On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 12:01:28 PM UTC-4, Ken Blake wrote:
> On 9/20/2021 5:08 AM, CDB wrote:
> > On 9/19/2021 7:32 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >> CDB wrote:
> >>> Au contraire, mon vieux. The archaism or dialectal status of
> >>> "nought" would be pie* to him.
> >>> *I see that that idiom, American from the Nineteenth and early
> >>> Twentieth Centuries as far as I know, isn't much covered in the
> >>> dics I consulted at Onelook. It may be connected to "sweet as
> >>> pie" (partly defined as "extremely pleasant" in the Oxford) or "pie
> >>> in the sky" (a wish or promise - empty in the case of that idiom -
> >>> in the AHD). It has the feel of Twain to it.
> >> I don't know that idiom, but I'd like to add the "pie in the sky" is
> >> a relatively new invention.
> > Then Twain or the other user didn't think of the song, but I can.
> >> It's from the song "The Preacher and the Slave" (1911) by Joe Hill,
> >> and there it definitely refers to an empty promise: don't worry that
> >> you're starving now, because you'll get your pie when you die and go
> >> up to heaven.
> > "First feed the face, and then talk right and wrong".
> > (Brecht/Blitzstein, _The Threepenny Opera_)
Really, no mention of Kurt Weill, the composer? Blitzstein translated
> On 9/20/2021 5:08 AM, CDB wrote:
> > On 9/19/2021 7:32 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >> CDB wrote:
> >>> Au contraire, mon vieux. The archaism or dialectal status of
> >>> "nought" would be pie* to him.
> >>> *I see that that idiom, American from the Nineteenth and early
> >>> Twentieth Centuries as far as I know, isn't much covered in the
> >>> dics I consulted at Onelook. It may be connected to "sweet as
> >>> pie" (partly defined as "extremely pleasant" in the Oxford) or "pie
> >>> in the sky" (a wish or promise - empty in the case of that idiom -
> >>> in the AHD). It has the feel of Twain to it.
> >> I don't know that idiom, but I'd like to add the "pie in the sky" is
> >> a relatively new invention.
> > Then Twain or the other user didn't think of the song, but I can.
> >> It's from the song "The Preacher and the Slave" (1911) by Joe Hill,
> >> and there it definitely refers to an empty promise: don't worry that
> >> you're starving now, because you'll get your pie when you die and go
> >> up to heaven.
> > "First feed the face, and then talk right and wrong".
> > (Brecht/Blitzstein, _The Threepenny Opera_)
(and sanitized) the text and arranged the music.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Threepenny_Opera#United_States_2
What an astonishing cast! Ed Asner, Jerry Orbach, Jerry Stiller!
Quinn C
Sep 21, 2021, 12:52:15 PM9/21/21
to
* Ken Blake:
Mankind, as per Wp.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Keeps_Mankind_Alive%3F>
One could get into the weeds of how German and English express
abstractions, and the differences in article use between the two.
--
George: You don't know these people. They find emotions disgusting.
They just want to have a good time and make jokes.
Mae: Oh, so they're British?
-- Feel Good
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Keeps_Mankind_Alive%3F>
One could get into the weeds of how German and English express
abstractions, and the differences in article use between the two.
--
George: You don't know these people. They find emotions disgusting.
They just want to have a good time and make jokes.
Mae: Oh, so they're British?
-- Feel Good
Ken Blake
Sep 21, 2021, 4:15:34 PM9/21/21
to
translation (from memory), but now that you mention it, I think that
perhaps I was wrong and it's "mankind."
And of course it should be "*Denn* wovon lebt der Mensch."
--
Ken
Quinn C
Sep 21, 2021, 5:05:36 PM9/21/21
to
* Ken Blake:
Not in the title, although "denn" is part of the text.
<https://lyricstranslate.com/de/wovon-lebt-der-mensch-zweiter-dreigroschenfinale-what-keeps-mankind-alive.html>
| Erst kommt das Fressen, dann kommt die Moral.
is the line that's become an idiom. The translation of that in the above
is weak.
Here's more information about translations:
| But in the uptight 1950s, Blitzstein was restricted from translating
| Bertolt Brecht's caustic lyrics accurately, and the cast album was
| even more expurgated than the stage version. When the New York
| Shakespeare Festival theater company came to mount a new production
| in the permissive 1970s, it commissioned a new translation by Ralph
| Manheim and John Willett that, if anything, went to extremes in the
| other direction.
<https://www.allmusic.com/album/the-threepenny-opera-1976-broadway-revival-cast-mw0000880850?1632257659257>
(Attention, the site has a very aggressive anti-adblocking stance; just
turning off my adblocker wasn't even enough, and I had to open it in a
different browser. They probably require you to accept something that
Firefox blocks OOTB.)
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
<https://lyricstranslate.com/de/wovon-lebt-der-mensch-zweiter-dreigroschenfinale-what-keeps-mankind-alive.html>
| Erst kommt das Fressen, dann kommt die Moral.
is the line that's become an idiom. The translation of that in the above
is weak.
Here's more information about translations:
| But in the uptight 1950s, Blitzstein was restricted from translating
| Bertolt Brecht's caustic lyrics accurately, and the cast album was
| even more expurgated than the stage version. When the New York
| Shakespeare Festival theater company came to mount a new production
| in the permissive 1970s, it commissioned a new translation by Ralph
| Manheim and John Willett that, if anything, went to extremes in the
| other direction.
<https://www.allmusic.com/album/the-threepenny-opera-1976-broadway-revival-cast-mw0000880850?1632257659257>
(Attention, the site has a very aggressive anti-adblocking stance; just
turning off my adblocker wasn't even enough, and I had to open it in a
different browser. They probably require you to accept something that
Firefox blocks OOTB.)
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
CDB
Sep 22, 2021, 8:12:12 AM9/22/21
to
On 9/21/2021 12:01 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
I don't, but I have listened to her singing "Seeräuber Jenny" on Youtube
and liked it. Hop-la!
> I've seen the original off-broadway production with Lotta Lenys, and
> also two other productions. The Blitzstein translation was the first
> one to me, so it's the one I know best, but I think some of the songs
> were better translated in later versions, for example
> "The world is poor and man's a shit and that is all there is to it,"
That could be the version I thought was good.
and liked it. Hop-la!
> I've seen the original off-broadway production with Lotta Lenys, and
> also two other productions. The Blitzstein translation was the first
> one to me, so it's the one I know best, but I think some of the songs
> were better translated in later versions, for example
> "The world is poor and man's a shit and that is all there is to it,"
CDB
Sep 22, 2021, 8:21:30 AM9/22/21
to
On 9/21/2021 4:15 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
> Quinn C wrote:
>> * Ken Blake:
> Quinn C wrote:
>> * Ken Blake:
"How to Survive" because the other line is from a later verse.
Peter T. Daniels
Sep 22, 2021, 9:13:30 AM9/22/21
to
On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 5:05:36 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Ken Blake:
> > On 9/21/2021 9:52 AM, Quinn C wrote:
> >> * Ken Blake:
> * Ken Blake:
> > On 9/21/2021 9:52 AM, Quinn C wrote:
> >> * Ken Blake:
Quinn C
Sep 22, 2021, 12:51:40 PM9/22/21
to
* Peter T. Daniels:
Apparently, it wasn't in what I retained from my speed reading of the Wp
page.
I see it now. Buried amidst other production detail, like names of
singers that mean nothing to me so I'm prone to skip to the next
paragraph. More skillful searching in the page might have brought me
there, but my quote sums it up more handily.
--
No ... it's a good thing that one of the most famous bigots
in the country [now supports Bernie].
-- Page Kreisman, talking about Joe Rogan
page.
I see it now. Buried amidst other production detail, like names of
singers that mean nothing to me so I'm prone to skip to the next
paragraph. More skillful searching in the page might have brought me
there, but my quote sums it up more handily.
--
No ... it's a good thing that one of the most famous bigots
in the country [now supports Bernie].
-- Page Kreisman, talking about Joe Rogan
CDB
Sep 23, 2021, 8:07:40 AM9/23/21
to
On 9/22/2021 12:51 PM, Quinn C wrote:
[Threepenny Opera, speedreading]
> I see it now. Buried amidst other production detail, like names of
> singers that mean nothing to me so I'm prone to skip to the next
> paragraph. More skillful searching in the page might have brought me
> there, but my quote sums it up more handily.
ObNit: Whoever wrote the subject line probably knows that that word is
"caesura", from L "caedo", to cut. If they didn't before, they does now.
--
To caese upon a midnight, with no pain ...
[Threepenny Opera, speedreading]
> I see it now. Buried amidst other production detail, like names of
> singers that mean nothing to me so I'm prone to skip to the next
> paragraph. More skillful searching in the page might have brought me
> there, but my quote sums it up more handily.
"caesura", from L "caedo", to cut. If they didn't before, they does now.
--
To caese upon a midnight, with no pain ...
Peter T. Daniels
Sep 23, 2021, 9:47:37 AM9/23/21
to
grammarian1976
Sep 23, 2021, 1:47:09 PM9/23/21
to
I find only six lines of straightforward iambic pentameter with no variations,
and in one of them I need to give "the" (pronounced "thee") second-level stress.
"And" also receives second-level stress in that line as I read it. It's interesting that
four of the straightforwardly iambic lines come right at the end, where Lazarus
has the statue speak, puppet-like, with those eternally reverberating words.
a MIGH | ty WO | man WITH | a TORCH, | whose FLAME
is THE | im PRI | soned LIGHT | ning, AND | her NAME
. . . .
your HU | ddled MA | sses YEAR | ning TO | breathe FREE
the WRET | ched RE | fuse OF | your TEAM | ing SHORE.
send THESE, | the HOME | less, TEM | pest-TOST | to ME.
i LIFT | my LAMP | be SIDE | the GOL | den DOOR.
Quinn C
Sep 23, 2021, 1:53:37 PM9/23/21
to
* CDB:
It did trip me up - I wondered for half a breath whether it was about (A
Walk to) Caesarea.
--
We shall never believe in things (even if this belief is based
in a so-called eternity), which can become a means of oppression.
-- Hedwig Dohm (1876), my translation
Walk to) Caesarea.
--
We shall never believe in things (even if this belief is based
in a so-called eternity), which can become a means of oppression.
-- Hedwig Dohm (1876), my translation
Peter T. Daniels
Sep 23, 2021, 3:36:05 PM9/23/21
to
On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 1:47:09 PM UTC-4, grammar...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 11:03:17 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > Again you may be misleading yourself by ignoring the context.
> > > https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46550/the-new-colossus
> > > line 7 (pyrrhic-spondee): "glows WORLD- | wide WEL | come; | | her | MILD EYES | co MMAND"
> > > line 8 (pyrrhic-spondee): "the AIR- | bridged HAR | bor | | that | TWIN CIT | ies FRAME"
> > > line 11 (clashing accents): "with SI | lent LIPS. | | 'GIVE me | your TIRED | your POOR, . . .'"
> > Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
> > - hopefully you don't stress the "of" to make the meter "come out right"?
> > With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
> > - no less than five lines of enjambement follow. This seems unusual.
>
> It does seem unusual. I like your comment about the unusual rhyme scheme, too.
> I find only six lines of straightforward iambic pentameter with no variations,
> and in one of them I need to give "the" (pronounced "thee") second-level stress.
> "And" also receives second-level stress in that line as I read it. It's interesting that
> four of the straightforwardly iambic lines come right at the end, where Lazarus
> has the statue speak, puppet-like, with those eternally reverberating words.
>
> a MIGH | ty WO | man WITH | a TORCH, | whose FLAME
> is THE | im PRI | soned LIGHT | ning, AND | her NAME
I say
> On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 11:03:17 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > Again you may be misleading yourself by ignoring the context.
> > > https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46550/the-new-colossus
> > > line 7 (pyrrhic-spondee): "glows WORLD- | wide WEL | come; | | her | MILD EYES | co MMAND"
> > > line 8 (pyrrhic-spondee): "the AIR- | bridged HAR | bor | | that | TWIN CIT | ies FRAME"
> > > line 11 (clashing accents): "with SI | lent LIPS. | | 'GIVE me | your TIRED | your POOR, . . .'"
> > Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
> > - hopefully you don't stress the "of" to make the meter "come out right"?
> > With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
> > - no less than five lines of enjambement follow. This seems unusual.
>
> It does seem unusual. I like your comment about the unusual rhyme scheme, too.
> I find only six lines of straightforward iambic pentameter with no variations,
> and in one of them I need to give "the" (pronounced "thee") second-level stress.
> "And" also receives second-level stress in that line as I read it. It's interesting that
> four of the straightforwardly iambic lines come right at the end, where Lazarus
> has the statue speak, puppet-like, with those eternally reverberating words.
>
> a MIGH | ty WO | man WITH | a TORCH, | whose FLAME
> is THE | im PRI | soned LIGHT | ning, AND | her NAME
// IS | th'im PRI | son'd ...
// MO | th'r of EX | iles...
grammarian1976
Sep 24, 2021, 12:34:47 PM9/24/21
to
On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 12:36:05 PM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 1:47:09 PM UTC-4, grammar...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 11:03:17 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > > Again you may be misleading yourself by ignoring the context.
> > > > https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46550/the-new-colossus
> > > > line 7 (pyrrhic-spondee): "glows WORLD- | wide WEL | come; | | her | MILD EYES | co MMAND"
> > > > line 8 (pyrrhic-spondee): "the AIR- | bridged HAR | bor | | that | TWIN CIT | ies FRAME"
> > > > line 11 (clashing accents): "with SI | lent LIPS. | | 'GIVE me | your TIRED | your POOR, . . .'"
> > > Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
> > > - hopefully you don't stress the "of" to make the meter "come out right"?
> > > With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
> > > - no less than five lines of enjambement follow. This seems unusual.
> >
> > It does seem unusual. I like your comment about the unusual rhyme scheme, too.
> > I find only six lines of straightforward iambic pentameter with no variations,
> > and in one of them I need to give "the" (pronounced "thee") second-level stress.
> > "And" also receives second-level stress in that line as I read it. It's interesting that
> > four of the straightforwardly iambic lines come right at the end, where Lazarus
> > has the statue speak, puppet-like, with those eternally reverberating words.
> >
> > a MIGH | ty WO | man WITH | a TORCH, | whose FLAME
> > is THE | im PRI | soned LIGHT | ning, AND | her NAME
> I say
>
> // IS | th'im PRI | son'd ...
Interesting! I like the sound of that. You seem to have
> On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 1:47:09 PM UTC-4, grammar...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 11:03:17 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > > Again you may be misleading yourself by ignoring the context.
> > > > https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46550/the-new-colossus
> > > > line 7 (pyrrhic-spondee): "glows WORLD- | wide WEL | come; | | her | MILD EYES | co MMAND"
> > > > line 8 (pyrrhic-spondee): "the AIR- | bridged HAR | bor | | that | TWIN CIT | ies FRAME"
> > > > line 11 (clashing accents): "with SI | lent LIPS. | | 'GIVE me | your TIRED | your POOR, . . .'"
> > > Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
> > > - hopefully you don't stress the "of" to make the meter "come out right"?
> > > With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
> > > - no less than five lines of enjambement follow. This seems unusual.
> >
> > It does seem unusual. I like your comment about the unusual rhyme scheme, too.
> > I find only six lines of straightforward iambic pentameter with no variations,
> > and in one of them I need to give "the" (pronounced "thee") second-level stress.
> > "And" also receives second-level stress in that line as I read it. It's interesting that
> > four of the straightforwardly iambic lines come right at the end, where Lazarus
> > has the statue speak, puppet-like, with those eternally reverberating words.
> >
> > a MIGH | ty WO | man WITH | a TORCH, | whose FLAME
> > is THE | im PRI | soned LIGHT | ning, AND | her NAME
> I say
>
> // IS | th'im PRI | son'd ...
rendered this line acephalous, with an omitted unstressed
syllable in the first foot, which contains only the stressed "Is."
Peter T. Daniels
Sep 24, 2021, 12:40:31 PM9/24/21
to
wasn't a mistake.
0 new messages