Pronounce "Villeroy & Boch" for me
HVS
Villeroy & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and
what I'd say if I said it. (I didn't raise the question, as
discretion on the part of the word-nerd kicked in.)
So: how do you pronounce "Villeroy & Boch"?
I don't mean "How does the company pronounce it?" or "How is
pronounced in its home territory?" -- I mean, how do do people in
your part of the world pronounce it?
Just curious.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
Ray O'Hara
"HVS" <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Xns9D1FEFC2...@news.albasani.net...
> Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of
> Villeroy & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and
> what I'd say if I said it. (I didn't raise the question, as
> discretion on the part of the word-nerd kicked in.)
>
> So: how do you pronounce "Villeroy & Boch"?
>
> I don't mean "How does the company pronounce it?" or "How is
> pronounced in its home territory?" -- I mean, how do do people in
> your part of the world pronounce it?
>
> Just curious.
Vill a roy
Bock
Boston Massachsetts
Tasha Miller
> Villeroy & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and
> what I'd say if I said it. (I didn't raise the question, as
> discretion on the part of the word-nerd kicked in.)
>
> So: how do you pronounce "Villeroy & Boch"?
>
> I don't mean "How does the company pronounce it?" or "How is
> pronounced in its home territory?" -- I mean, how do do people in
> your part of the world pronounce it?
>
> Just curious.
Vill er roy and bosh. I don't know why because if I came across "Boch" on
its own I'd pronounce it "bock".
NZ/Aus English
John Dean
> Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of
> Villeroy & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and
> what I'd say if I said it. (I didn't raise the question, as
> discretion on the part of the word-nerd kicked in.)
>
> So: how do you pronounce "Villeroy & Boch"?
>
> I don't mean "How does the company pronounce it?" or "How is
> pronounced in its home territory?" -- I mean, how do do people in
> your part of the world pronounce it?
>
> Just curious.
It would depend who or what they were. I might say veal-roy, vill-roy,
villa-roy or even ville-roi (frenchified). I might say bock or bosh or
germanified boch (with the 'ch' from the centre of many-hued).
Depends if they're a business outfit from Belgium, France, Germany or
wherever. Depends if they're a vaudeville act or an old-established firm of
Savile Row tailors.
If they're someone or something I'm supposed to have heard of then I imagine
I would pronounce them as I heard it first.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Robert Bannister
> Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of
> Villeroy & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and
> what I'd say if I said it. (I didn't raise the question, as
> discretion on the part of the word-nerd kicked in.)
>
> So: how do you pronounce "Villeroy & Boch"?
>
> I don't mean "How does the company pronounce it?" or "How is
> pronounced in its home territory?" -- I mean, how do do people in
> your part of the world pronounce it?
>
> Just curious.
>
Since I've never heard of them or even seen them written, I can only
guess: if not speaking French, I would say "vill - roy and bosh". I
didn't think the first name was open to mangling, apart from the
"roy/rwah" choice, until I saw Ray's answer.
--
Rob Bannister
annily
> Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of
> Villeroy & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and
> what I'd say if I said it. (I didn't raise the question, as
> discretion on the part of the word-nerd kicked in.)
>
> So: how do you pronounce "Villeroy & Boch"?
>
Since I'd never heard of "Villeroy & Boch", I don't pronounce it at all,
but would probably say "viluhroy and bock".
--
Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia,
which may or may not influence my opinions.
Ray O'Hara
"Robert Bannister" <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:7trmce...@mid.individual.net...
> HVS wrote:
>> Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of Villeroy &
>> Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and what I'd say if I
>> said it. (I didn't raise the question, as discretion on the part of the
>> word-nerd kicked in.)
>>
>> So: how do you pronounce "Villeroy & Boch"?
>>
>> I don't mean "How does the company pronounce it?" or "How is pronounced
>> in its home territory?" -- I mean, how do do people in your part of the
>> world pronounce it?
>>
>> Just curious.
>>
>
Would you rather I wrote Vill uh roy?
Are you familiar with the great NHL goalie Patrick Roy?
His name gets pronounced Roy, ru ah , wah and a few other ways,
He never helps out by mentioning how he says it.
Percival P. Cassidy
>> Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of
>> Villeroy& Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and
>> what I'd say if I said it. (I didn't raise the question, as
>> discretion on the part of the word-nerd kicked in.)
>>
>> So: how do you pronounce "Villeroy& Boch"?
>>
>> I don't mean "How does the company pronounce it?" or "How is
>> pronounced in its home territory?" -- I mean, how do do people in
>> your part of the world pronounce it?
>>
>> Just curious.
> It would depend who or what they were. I might say veal-roy, vill-roy,
> villa-roy or even ville-roi (frenchified). I might say bock or bosh or
> germanified boch (with the 'ch' from the centre of many-hued).
> Depends if they're a business outfit from Belgium, France, Germany or
> wherever. Depends if they're a vaudeville act or an old-established firm of
> Savile Row tailors.
> If they're someone or something I'm supposed to have heard of then I imagine
> I would pronounce them as I heard it first.
I know the name but can't recall who they are or where they originate.
I'm not sure that I've ever needed to speak the name, but in my mind's
ear it would be Villa-roy and 'germanified boch' -- but a little more
guttural than John's version.
Perce
tony cooper
<Nob...@NotMyISP.net> wrote:
>On 02/14/10 07:59 pm, John Dean wrote:
>
>>> Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of
>>> Villeroy& Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and
>>> what I'd say if I said it. (I didn't raise the question, as
>>> discretion on the part of the word-nerd kicked in.)
>>>
>>> So: how do you pronounce "Villeroy& Boch"?
>>>
>>> I don't mean "How does the company pronounce it?" or "How is
>>> pronounced in its home territory?" -- I mean, how do do people in
>>> your part of the world pronounce it?
>>>
>>> Just curious.
>
>> It would depend who or what they were. I might say veal-roy, vill-roy,
>> villa-roy or even ville-roi (frenchified). I might say bock or bosh or
>> germanified boch (with the 'ch' from the centre of many-hued).
>> Depends if they're a business outfit from Belgium, France, Germany or
>> wherever. Depends if they're a vaudeville act or an old-established firm of
>> Savile Row tailors.
>> If they're someone or something I'm supposed to have heard of then I imagine
>> I would pronounce them as I heard it first.
>
>I know the name but can't recall who they are or where they originate.
They have been making ceramic tableware since the 1700s. Just about
any good department store has something made by V&B in the chinaware
department.
We don't have any V&B dinnerware, but I have a V&B Mettlach beer
pitcher (#6 design).
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Mark Brader
> So: how do you pronounce "Villeroy & Boch"?
Never heard of them. If I had to read your article aloud to someone,
I'd probably say "VIL-uh-roy and BOK".
--
Mark Brader "Inventions reached their limit long ago,
Toronto and I see no hope for further development."
m...@vex.net -- Julius Frontinus, 1st century A.D.
Garrett Wollman
Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:
>Harvey Van Sickle:
>> So: how do you pronounce "Villeroy & Boch"?
>
>Never heard of them. If I had to read your article aloud to someone,
>I'd probably say "VIL-uh-roy and BOK".
Same here, except that I have heard of them, and the speaker
pronounced the name thus.
(The fact that we have a well-known local auto-dealer named Ernie
Boch, Jr. (pronounced /bAk/) increases the likelihood that this is a
false memory.)
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
Mike Barnes
>Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of
>Villeroy & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and
>what I'd say if I said it. (I didn't raise the question, as
>discretion on the part of the word-nerd kicked in.)
>
>So: how do you pronounce "Villeroy & Boch"?
>
>I don't mean "How does the company pronounce it?" or "How is
>pronounced in its home territory?" -- I mean, how do do people in
>your part of the world pronounce it?
I selected V&B sanitary ware for our bathroom, so I'm somewhat
qualified.
Normal UK plumber's merchant pronunciation is "VILL-uh-roy-n-BOSH" or,
more rarely, "VILL-uh-roy-n-BOCH" with the "ch" from the Scottish word
"loch". The two versions reflect regional variation among native German
speakers. The company was founded in Lorraine, which has for centuries
been contested by France and Germany.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of
> Villeroy & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and
> what I'd say if I said it. (I didn't raise the question, as
> discretion on the part of the word-nerd kicked in.)
>
> So: how do you pronounce "Villeroy & Boch"?
>
> I don't mean "How does the company pronounce it?" or "How is
> pronounced in its home territory?" -- I mean, how do do people in
> your part of the world pronounce it?
I would pronounce it as French. Boch is not a very French-looking name,
but the original Boch was Jean-Fran�ois Boch and was French. Wikipedia
claims it is pronounced "bok" in French, but I don't think that is
right. I think most people around here would say "bosh".
--
athel
Joachim Pense
>
> Vill er roy and bosh. I don't know why because if I came across "Boch" on
> its own I'd pronounce it "bock".
>
It's a German company, and "Boch" rhymes with Scottish "loch".
Joachim
--
My favourite # 75: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mnm2qPYLUo>
My favourite # 56: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TalLjSUoBKw>
Joachim Pense
> Tasha Miller (in alt.usage.english):
>
>>
>> Vill er roy and bosh. I don't know why because if I came across "Boch" on
>> its own I'd pronounce it "bock".
>>
>
> It's a German company, and "Boch" rhymes with Scottish "loch".
>
"Bock" would be ok, as the founder was French. But then again, he was from a
German-speaking part of French...
Joachim
--
My favourite # 43: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfFBdViZHzk>
My favourite # 9: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9eHp7JJgq8>
J. J. Lodder
It is a bit hard to keep Messieurs Boch and Bosch apart,
Jan
J. J. Lodder
> Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of
> Villeroy & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and
> what I'd say if I said it. (I didn't raise the question, as
> discretion on the part of the word-nerd kicked in.)
>
> So: how do you pronounce "Villeroy & Boch"?
>
> I don't mean "How does the company pronounce it?" or "How is
> pronounced in its home territory?" -- I mean, how do do people in
> your part of the world pronounce it?
The Dutch generaly follow the German pronunciation.
Using the French one would be seen as affected,
or pretentious.
Jan
LFS
> Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of
> Villeroy & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and
> what I'd say if I said it. (I didn't raise the question, as
> discretion on the part of the word-nerd kicked in.)
>
> So: how do you pronounce "Villeroy & Boch"?
Expensive.
>
> I don't mean "How does the company pronounce it?" or "How is
> pronounced in its home territory?" -- I mean, how do do people in
> your part of the world pronounce it?
>
> Just curious.
>
Villa Roy and Bosh. I've never heard anything different and ISTR that's
how they say it in their outlet store at Bicester Village.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
HVS
That's how I've always said it; the different pronunciation was
"bock" -- which struck me as entirely reasonable and made me
question my pronunciation of "Villeroy" as well.
HVS
Thanks for the responses so far; interesting.
I've only ever heard and said "villa roy and bosh". The different
pronunciation last night was "bock", which I realised was an entirely
reasonable way for someone to look at the name; caused me to
question my pronunciation of both names; and made me wonder if
either "ville-roi" or "bock" were in common use.
Joachim Pense
> On 14 Feb 2010, HVS wrote
>
> Thanks for the responses so far; interesting.
>
> I've only ever heard and said "villa roy and bosh". The different
> pronunciation last night was "bock", which I realised was an entirely
> reasonable way for someone to look at the name; caused me to
> question my pronunciation of both names; and made me wonder if
> either "ville-roi" or "bock" were in common use.
>
I don't think "bosh" is right. The French pronounciation (Boch was French,
but from a German-speaking region, and the Company is in Germany) is "Bock".
The German pronounciation is "Boch" (with a German "ach" sound at the end),
and that would be rendered "Bock" in English again.
If it was "bosh", it should be spelled "Boche".
Joachim
--
My favourite # 30: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6WwuxqXPOg>
My favourite # 45: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Xa75w-vEXk>
CDB
>
[Villeroy & Boch]
>
> Are you familiar with the great NHL goalie Patrick Roy?
> His name gets pronounced Roy, ru ah , wah and a few other ways,
> He never helps out by mentioning how he says it.
>
HVS
> HVS (in alt.usage.english):
>
>> On 14 Feb 2010, HVS wrote
>>
>> Thanks for the responses so far; interesting.
>>
>> I've only ever heard and said "villa roy and bosh". The
>> different pronunciation last night was "bock", which I realised
>> was an entirely reasonable way for someone to look at the name;
>> caused me to question my pronunciation of both names; and
>> made me wonder if either "ville-roi" or "bock" were in common
>> use.
>>
>
> I don't think "bosh" is right. The French pronounciation (Boch
> was French, but from a German-speaking region, and the Company
> is in Germany) is "Bock". The German pronounciation is "Boch"
> (with a German "ach" sound at the end), and that would be
> rendered "Bock" in English again.
>
> If it was "bosh", it should be spelled "Boche".
Oh, I'm sure you're correct that that's what it *ought* to be, but
as Laura has confirmed the standard pronunciation in England --
including by people who sell the products in V&B shops -- appears
to be "bosh".
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> HVS (in alt.usage.english):
>
>> On 14 Feb 2010, HVS wrote
>>
>> Thanks for the responses so far; interesting.
>>
>> I've only ever heard and said "villa roy and bosh". The different
>> pronunciation last night was "bock", which I realised was an entirely
>> reasonable way for someone to look at the name; caused me to
>> question my pronunciation of both names; and made me wonder if
>> either "ville-roi" or "bock" were in common use.
>>
>
> I don't think "bosh" is right. The French pronounciation (Boch was French,
> but from a German-speaking region, and the Company is in Germany) is "Bock".
In the region concerned you are doubtless right. But in parts of France
that are much further away from the Luxemburg border than where Boch
came from people aren't too conscious of how German names are
pronounced, and I think here in the south they'd say bosh, but I'll try
to find out.
>
> The German pronounciation is "Boch" (with a German "ach" sound at the end),
> and that would be rendered "Bock" in English again.
>
> If it was "bosh", it should be spelled "Boche".
Only for people for whom mute e is really mute (which is far from being
the case in the south).
--
athel
Joachim Pense
> On 2010-02-15 16:20:19 +0100, Joachim Pense <sn...@pense-mainz.eu> said:
>
>> HVS (in alt.usage.english):
>>
>>> On 14 Feb 2010, HVS wrote
>>>
>>> Thanks for the responses so far; interesting.
>>>
>>> I've only ever heard and said "villa roy and bosh". The different
>>> pronunciation last night was "bock", which I realised was an entirely
>>> reasonable way for someone to look at the name; caused me to
>>> question my pronunciation of both names; and made me wonder if
>>> either "ville-roi" or "bock" were in common use.
>>>
>>
>> I don't think "bosh" is right. The French pronounciation (Boch was
>> French, but from a German-speaking region, and the Company is in Germany)
>> is "Bock".
>
> In the region concerned you are doubtless right. But in parts of France
> that are much further away from the Luxemburg border than where Boch
> came from people aren't too conscious of how German names are
> pronounced, and I think here in the south they'd say bosh, but I'll try
> to find out.
>
German WP gives German and French pronounciations in IPA: dt. [ˌvɪlərɔɪʊnt
ˈbɔx], frz. [vilʀwaeˈbɔk]
--
My favourite # 67: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxZuq57_bYM>
My favourite # 46: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na_3r_bf5gA>
Frank ess
LFS wrote:
> HVS wrote:
>>
>> Just curious.
>>
>
> Villa Roy and Bosh. I've never heard anything different and ISTR
> that's how they say it in their outlet store at Bicester Village.
In YourSpeak, does "outlet store" mean "Place where the company tries
to unload surplus manufactured goods (and anything else they think you
might buy if you get the impression that deep discounts are
available)" as it does around here in the Southwest USA, where there
are some humoungous malls devoted entirely to "outlets"?
I have referred to regular stores as (that company's) outlet. "Outlet
store" seems to have shifted the meaning a bit.
Just curious.
--
Frank ess
LFS
>
>
> LFS wrote:
>> HVS wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Just curious.
>>>
>>
>> Villa Roy and Bosh. I've never heard anything different and ISTR
>> that's how they say it in their outlet store at Bicester Village.
>
> In YourSpeak, does "outlet store" mean "Place where the company tries to
> unload surplus manufactured goods (and anything else they think you
> might buy if you get the impression that deep discounts are available)"
> as it does around here in the Southwest USA, where there are some
> humoungous malls devoted entirely to "outlets"?
Yes, it does. Generally, there are few real bargains to be had in these
places IME unless you are very slim and have poor taste. We used to
visit Bicester about once a year to buy the occasional gift in the V & B
shop but more to eat at the nearest Carluccio's.
>
> I have referred to regular stores as (that company's) outlet. "Outlet
> store" seems to have shifted the meaning a bit.
>
> Just curious.
>
--
Robin Bignall
wrote:
That's how I've always heard it in England: Villa Roy and Bosh. It
doesn't actually matter how foreigners pronounce it. We don't say
Paree, either.
--
Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England
tsuidf
> Joachim Pense (in alt.usage.english):
>
> > Tasha Miller (in alt.usage.english):
>
> >> Vill er roy and bosh. I don't know why because if I came across "Boch" on
> >> its own I'd pronounce it "bock".
>
> > It's a German company, and "Boch" rhymes with Scottish "loch".
>
> "Bock" would be ok, as the founder was French. But then again, he was from a
> German-speaking part of French...
Over here they seem to hold themselves out as Luxembourgeois. Which is
a whole nother smoke. Or several smokes combined, depending on your
mileage.
best from Brussels,
Stephanie
tsuidf
> It is a bit hard to keep Messieurs Boch and Bosch apart,
And yet one manages to store the coffee cups and the electric drill
in the right places, thank heavens.
cheers,
Stephanie
HVS
Ah, but does one clean the electric drill along with the coffee cups
in the dishwasher, or does it go in the washing machine?
Robert Bannister
> "Robert Bannister" <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:7trmce...@mid.individual.net...
>> HVS wrote:
>>> Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of Villeroy &
>>> Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and what I'd say if I
>>> said it. (I didn't raise the question, as discretion on the part of the
>>> word-nerd kicked in.)
>>>
>>> So: how do you pronounce "Villeroy & Boch"?
>>>
>>> I don't mean "How does the company pronounce it?" or "How is pronounced
>>> in its home territory?" -- I mean, how do do people in your part of the
>>> world pronounce it?
>>>
>>> Just curious.
>>>
>
> Would you rather I wrote Vill uh roy?
I was just puzzled why you (and apparently several others) felt the need
to insert a syllable between the "vill" and the "roy".
>
> Are you familiar with the great NHL goalie Patrick Roy?
No. I don't even know what NHL is, but it sounds like something dodgy
from the National Health.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
But nobody has explained how "ville" became converted to "villa". I find
that very strange as there a number of English place names ending in
"ville" that do not have this sound change.
--
Rob Bannister
Ray O'Hara
National Hockey League,{ice hockey}
Ray O'Hara
"Garrett Wollman" <wol...@bimajority.org> wrote in message
news:hlat59$21ii$1...@grapevine.csail.mit.edu...
> In article <xoCdnat56ay-Q-XW...@vex.net>,
> Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:
>>Harvey Van Sickle:
>>> So: how do you pronounce "Villeroy & Boch"?
>>
>>Never heard of them. If I had to read your article aloud to someone,
>>I'd probably say "VIL-uh-roy and BOK".
>
> Same here, except that I have heard of them, and the speaker
> pronounced the name thus.
>
> (The fact that we have a well-known local auto-dealer named Ernie
> Boch, Jr. (pronounced /bAk/) increases the likelihood that this is a
> false memory.)
>
>
I worked there in the 70s, we called it Bock {bauk}.
annily
> Ray O'Hara wrote:
>> "Robert Bannister" <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
>> news:7trmce...@mid.individual.net...
>>> HVS wrote:
>>>> Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of
>>>> Villeroy & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and
>>>> what I'd say if I said it. (I didn't raise the question, as
>>>> discretion on the part of the word-nerd kicked in.)
>>>>
>>>> So: how do you pronounce "Villeroy & Boch"?
>>>>
>>>> I don't mean "How does the company pronounce it?" or "How is
>>>> pronounced in its home territory?" -- I mean, how do do people in
>>>> your part of the world pronounce it?
>>>>
>>>> Just curious.
>>>>
>>
>> Would you rather I wrote Vill uh roy?
>
> I was just puzzled why you (and apparently several others) felt the need
> to insert a syllable between the "vill" and the "roy".
>>
Because there's a vowel there, which I would pronounce as a schwa.
--
Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia,
which may or may not influence my opinions.
annily
There is s similar surname, Villeneuve, which Macquarie says is
pronounced /veel'nerv/, and I certainly think Jacques Villeneuve's
surname is usually pronounced that way by English speakers.
However, had I not heard it pronounced, I would probably say
/'viluhnerv/. It just seems more logical to me.
Joachim Pense
>
> But nobody has explained how "ville" became converted to "villa". I find
> that very strange as there a number of English place names ending in
> "ville" that do not have this sound change.
>
Maybe via German? It's just a spelling pronounciation, because German has no
silent e.
Joachim
--
My favourite # 67: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxZuq57_bYM>
My favourite # 51: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKX3U5Pnf5Q>
J. J. Lodder
Mike Barnes
We do, as it happens. I'd never noticed.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Jerry Friedman
> Frank ess wrote:
...
> > In YourSpeak, does "outlet store" mean "Place where the company tries to
> > unload surplus manufactured goods (and anything else they think you
> > might buy if you get the impression that deep discounts are available)"
> > as it does around here in the Southwest USA, where there are some
> > humoungous malls devoted entirely to "outlets"?
>
> Yes, it does. Generally, there are few real bargains to be had in these
> places IME unless you are very slim and have poor taste.
...
Tempting. Do they have tall sizes?
--
Jerry Friedman, here in the Southwest USA
tsuidf
Nope, we Smeg them.
Yuck, that sounds horrid.
Robert Bannister
I can't claim this is exhaustive, but I find the following place names
in South Australia. (I had only ever heard of Walkerville; more recently
my sister moved to Hectorville).
Ashville, Copeville, Forestville, Frayville, Frewville, Glanville,
Hectorville, Normanville, Petersville, Taylorville, Walkerville, Woodville.
My point is that none of these have the final vowel pronounced, nor can
I think of anywhere else in the English-speaking world where "ville" has
two syllables.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> Robert Bannister (in alt.usage.english):
>
>
>> But nobody has explained how "ville" became converted to "villa". I find
>> that very strange as there a number of English place names ending in
>> "ville" that do not have this sound change.
>>
>
> Maybe via German? It's just a spelling pronounciation, because German has no
> silent e.
>
> Joachim
>
A bold statement that has me searching for a French or even English
loanword where the e is silent. I haven't thought of one yet, but I
wouldn't bet that none exists.
--
Rob Bannister
Reinhold {Rey} Aman
>
> Joachim Pense wrote:
>> Robert Bannister (in alt.usage.english):
>>> But nobody has explained how "ville" became converted to "villa".
>>> I find that very strange as there a number of English place names
>>> ending in "ville" that do not have this sound change.
>
>> Maybe via German? It's just a spelling pronounciation, because
>> German has no silent e.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
Nonsense! See below.
>
> A bold statement that has me searching for a French or even English
> loanword where the e is silent. I haven't thought of one yet, but I
> wouldn't bet that none exists.
>
Rob, as a former _Deutschlehrer_, you know of course that German has
zillions of silent e's (i.e., e's that are not pronounced). Just a few:
_die_ /di:/
_Dieb_ /di:p/
_Hieb_ /hi:p/
_hielt_ /hi:lt/
_lieb_ /li:p/
_Kopie_ /ko'pi:/ (but Austrian German: /'ko:pj@/ )
_Melodie_ /melo'di:/
In _Melodie_, the first <e> is pronounced, the second not.
_raffiniert_ /,rafi'ni:rt/, from French _raffiner_
_Raffinerie_ /,rafin@'ri:/, from French _raffinerie_, etc., etc.
--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~
R H Draney
>
>I can't claim this is exhaustive, but I find the following place names
>in South Australia. (I had only ever heard of Walkerville; more recently
>my sister moved to Hectorville).
>
>Ashville, Copeville, Forestville, Frayville, Frewville, Glanville,
>Hectorville, Normanville, Petersville, Taylorville, Walkerville, Woodville.
>
>My point is that none of these have the final vowel pronounced, nor can
>I think of anywhere else in the English-speaking world where "ville" has
>two syllables.
Not at the end, perhaps...whom do I ask to find out how the locals pronounce
"Villegreen" (Colorado), "Ville Platte" (Louisiana, admittedly not necessarily
an English-speaking place), or "Ville du Parc" (Illinois)?...r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
Joachim Pense
That e is not silent. It prolongs the i.
Joachim
--
My favourite # 85: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOIIiYHEtx4>
My favourite # 20: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGO0wbRdI4Y>
annily
That's completely different. They all have "ville" at the end of the word.
Reinhold {Rey} Aman
In all my above examples (except _Melodie_ and _Raffinerie_, which have
two e's, one pronounced, the second SILENT), the <e> *is* SILENT = not
pronounced/spoken --> not heard.
Its *function* is to lengthen the <i> /i/ to /i:/, but it's still SILENT
= not pronounced/spoken --> not heard.
End of discussion.
Isabelle Cecchini
> Athel Cornish-Bowden (in alt.usage.english):
>
>> On 2010-02-15 16:20:19 +0100, Joachim Pense <sn...@pense-mainz.eu> said:
>>
>>> HVS (in alt.usage.english):
>>>
>>>> On 14 Feb 2010, HVS wrote
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the responses so far; interesting.
>>>>
>>>> I've only ever heard and said "villa roy and bosh". The different
>>>> pronunciation last night was "bock", which I realised was an entirely
>>>> reasonable way for someone to look at the name; caused me to
>>>> question my pronunciation of both names; and made me wonder if
>>>> either "ville-roi" or "bock" were in common use.
>>>>
>>> I don't think "bosh" is right. The French pronounciation (Boch was
>>> French, but from a German-speaking region, and the Company is in Germany)
>>> is "Bock".
>> In the region concerned you are doubtless right. But in parts of France
>> that are much further away from the Luxemburg border than where Boch
>> came from people aren't too conscious of how German names are
>> pronounced, and I think here in the south they'd say bosh, but I'll try
>> to find out.
>>
> German WP gives German and French pronounciations in IPA: dt. [ˌvɪlərɔɪʊnt
> ˈbɔx], frz. [vilʀwaeˈbɔk]
That's what the English Wikipedia says too, but I agree with Athel :
there are lots and lots of French people who are not aware of that
pronunciation, which I take to be the recommended one, and who say [bɔʃ].
I had a brief stint as a shop assistant in the tableware department at
Le Printemps department store, and everybody, the customers as well as
all the other shop assistants always used the "Bosch" pronunciation.
The informal poll I've conducted among my nearest and dearest --they are
getting used to being asked all sorts of bizarre questions related to
newsgroup matters-- yields the same results: everybody says "Bosch". We
are all reasonably well educated and some of us even studied German at
school.
We regularly pronounce "Bach" with a [k], though.
--
Isabelle Cecchini
J. J. Lodder
The Bosch-like mispronunciation of Boch
probably comes from misreading.
The Bosch name is quite visible,
while the Boch is rarely seen
except in fine print at the underside of a saucer.
And even if seen a quick scan stops at Ville...
Jan
J. J. Lodder
> Joachim Pense a �crit :
> > Athel Cornish-Bowden (in alt.usage.english):
> >
> >> On 2010-02-15 16:20:19 +0100, Joachim Pense <sn...@pense-mainz.eu> said:
> >>
> >>> HVS (in alt.usage.english):
> >>>
> >>>> On 14 Feb 2010, HVS wrote
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks for the responses so far; interesting.
> >>>>
> >>>> I've only ever heard and said "villa roy and bosh". The different
> >>>> pronunciation last night was "bock", which I realised was an entirely
> >>>> reasonable way for someone to look at the name; caused me to
> >>>> question my pronunciation of both names; and made me wonder if
> >>>> either "ville-roi" or "bock" were in common use.
> >>>>
> >>> I don't think "bosh" is right. The French pronounciation (Boch was
> >>> French, but from a German-speaking region, and the Company is in Germany)
> >>> is "Bock".
> >> In the region concerned you are doubtless right. But in parts of France
> >> that are much further away from the Luxemburg border than where Boch
> >> came from people aren't too conscious of how German names are
> >> pronounced, and I think here in the south they'd say bosh, but I'll try
> >> to find out.
> >>
> > German WP gives German and French pronounciations in IPA: dt. [?v?l?r???nt
> > ?b?x], frz. [vil?wae?b?k]
>
> That's what the English Wikipedia says too, but I agree with Athel :
> there are lots and lots of French people who are not aware of that
> pronunciation, which I take to be the recommended one, and who say [b??].
>
> I had a brief stint as a shop assistant in the tableware department at
> Le Printemps department store, and everybody, the customers as well as
> all the other shop assistants always used the "Bosch" pronunciation.
>
> The informal poll I've conducted among my nearest and dearest --they are
> getting used to being asked all sorts of bizarre questions related to
> newsgroup matters-- yields the same results: everybody says "Bosch". We
> are all reasonably well educated and some of us even studied German at
> school.
Have you asked them to spell it?
(without giving a clue first)
Jan
Isabelle Cecchini
> Isabelle Cecchini <isabelle...@wanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote:
[...]
>>
>> The informal poll I've conducted among my nearest and dearest --they are
>> getting used to being asked all sorts of bizarre questions related to
>> newsgroup matters-- yields the same results: everybody says "Bosch". We
>> are all reasonably well educated and some of us even studied German at
>> school.
>
> Have you asked them to spell it?
> (without giving a clue first)
They have no problem spelling it. True, one of them rationalized about
the "Bosch" pronunciation by saying that it was due to people confusing
the dishwasher makers with the coffee-cup makers. But we pronounce it
"Bosch", because it's the way we've always heard it, even, as I said in
my previous post, from people whose job it was to sell the stuff.
Another reason, put forward by another one of my informants, and one on
which we have already remarked in this newsgroup, might be that the same
trend is observed in traditional French-Frenchifying pronunciation of
originally German names. A film directed by Joseph Losey with Alain
Delon bears the title "Monsieur Klein". It's about a French Alsatian
(that sounds a bit like a dog-breed, doesn't it?) and his name is
pronounced as in French "clin".
--
Isabelle Cecchini
J. J. Lodder
> J. J. Lodder a �crit :
> > Isabelle Cecchini <isabelle...@wanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote:
> [...]
> >>
> >> The informal poll I've conducted among my nearest and dearest --they are
> >> getting used to being asked all sorts of bizarre questions related to
> >> newsgroup matters-- yields the same results: everybody says "Bosch". We
> >> are all reasonably well educated and some of us even studied German at
> >> school.
> >
> > Have you asked them to spell it?
> > (without giving a clue first)
>
> They have no problem spelling it. True, one of them rationalized about
> the "Bosch" pronunciation by saying that it was due to people confusing
> the dishwasher makers with the coffee-cup makers. But we pronounce it
> "Bosch", because it's the way we've always heard it, even, as I said in
> my previous post, from people whose job it was to sell the stuff.
>
> Another reason, put forward by another one of my informants, and one on
> which we have already remarked in this newsgroup, might be that the same
> trend is observed in traditional French-Frenchifying pronunciation of
> originally German names. A film directed by Joseph Losey with Alain
> Delon bears the title "Monsieur Klein".
Not particularly French.
It works the same way in most languages.
Saying Monsieur Klein, with the Monsieur in French
and the Klein in German requires a noticable pause
to switch the mental apparatus to the other language.
So the Klein naturally becomes something
which fits in with the French brain/muscle setting.
It works the same way in Dutch too
(where Klein is a common name)
The Klein in Mijnheer Klein comes out subtly different
from the Klein in Herr Klein.
> It's about a French Alsatian
> (that sounds a bit like a dog-breed, doesn't it?) and his name is
> pronounced as in French "clin".
'An Alsatian' is primarily a dog breed, in English.
During WW II German shepperd dogs became very unfashionable,
(der Adolf being very fond of them)
<http://wow.blogs.com/words/hitler6-thumb.jpg>
and they were renamed to the less offensive Alsatian,
which is of course something else altogether.
Jan
Mike Barnes
>It works the same way in most languages.
>Saying Monsieur Klein, with the Monsieur in French
>and the Klein in German requires a noticable pause
>to switch the mental apparatus to the other language.
That's exactly what we'd do in English, without, as far as I'm aware,
any pause. Our mental apparatus is in "foreign" throughout.
HVS
> Isabelle Cecchini <isabelle...@wanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote:
>> It's about a French Alsatian
>> (that sounds a bit like a dog-breed, doesn't it?) and his name
>> is pronounced as in French "clin".
>
> 'An Alsatian' is primarily a dog breed, in English.
Well it was that, but in dog-breeding circles the name was changed
back to "German Shepherd" about 30 years ago.
> During WW II German shepperd dogs became very unfashionable,
> (der Adolf being very fond of them)
> <http://wow.blogs.com/words/hitler6-thumb.jpg>
> and they were renamed to the less offensive Alsatian,
I'm fairly certain the name change dated to during or just after WWI
rather than II.
J. J. Lodder
There must be.
Eperiment a montr� que lire or speaking mixed language sentences
(switching randomly in mid-sentence
between French and English for example)
takes measurably more time.
You of course may be the exception,
but I wouldn't bet on it,
Jan
J. J. Lodder
> On 17 Feb 2010, J. J. Lodder wrote
> > Isabelle Cecchini <isabelle...@wanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote:
>
> >> It's about a French Alsatian
> >> (that sounds a bit like a dog-breed, doesn't it?) and his name
> >> is pronounced as in French "clin".
> >
> > 'An Alsatian' is primarily a dog breed, in English.
>
> Well it was that, but in dog-breeding circles the name was changed
> back to "German Shepherd" about 30 years ago.
Among dog breeders perhaps.
Googling on "an Alsatian" still throws up predominantly doggie hits.
> > During WW II German shepperd dogs became very unfashionable,
> > (der Adolf being very fond of them)
> > <http://wow.blogs.com/words/hitler6-thumb.jpg>
> > and they were renamed to the less offensive Alsatian,
>
> I'm fairly certain the name change dated to during or just after WWI
> rather than II.
Quite possible, for England.
I have the WW II version from an American friend,
Jan
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
wrote:
The OED has these quotes:
Alsatian
2. The registered Kennel Club name for the German Shepherd Dog
(deutscher Sch�ferhund), formerly known as the Alsatian wolf-dog
(occas. wolf-hound).
The name Alsatian was adopted in order to avoid the associations
of German. The dog does not belong to Alsace, nor is there a wolf
strain in its composition.
....
1922 R. LEIGHTON Compl. Bk. Dog 119 The dogs lately introduced into
Great Britain as the Alsatian Wolfdog and into the United States as
the German sheepdog.
Ibid. 120 The Alsatian was known in England before the war.
....
1948 C. L. B. HUBBARD Dogs in Britain xviii. 197 The breed [German
Shepherd Dog], on its re-importation during 1918-1919, was named
Alsatian Wolfdog.
....
This just leaves the question as to whether German Shepherd Dogs
imported into Britain per-1914 retained that breed name during the war.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Joachim Pense
>
>
Yes, please!
--
My favourite # 64: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2R0Rq55-tc>
My favourite # 80: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkCayGh1OvU>
J. J. Lodder
> Joachim Pense a �crit :
> > Athel Cornish-Bowden (in alt.usage.english):
> >
> >> On 2010-02-15 16:20:19 +0100, Joachim Pense <sn...@pense-mainz.eu> said:
> >>
> >>> HVS (in alt.usage.english):
> >>>
> >>>> On 14 Feb 2010, HVS wrote
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks for the responses so far; interesting.
> >>>>
> >>>> I've only ever heard and said "villa roy and bosh". The different
> >>>> pronunciation last night was "bock", which I realised was an entirely
> >>>> reasonable way for someone to look at the name; caused me to
> >>>> question my pronunciation of both names; and made me wonder if
> >>>> either "ville-roi" or "bock" were in common use.
> >>>>
> >>> I don't think "bosh" is right. The French pronounciation (Boch was
> >>> French, but from a German-speaking region, and the Company is in Germany)
> >>> is "Bock".
> >> In the region concerned you are doubtless right. But in parts of France
> >> that are much further away from the Luxemburg border than where Boch
> >> came from people aren't too conscious of how German names are
> >> pronounced, and I think here in the south they'd say bosh, but I'll try
> >> to find out.
> >>
> > German WP gives German and French pronounciations in IPA: dt. [?v?l?r???nt
> > ?b?x], frz. [vil?wae?b?k]
>
> That's what the English Wikipedia says too, but I agree with Athel :
> there are lots and lots of French people who are not aware of that
> pronunciation, which I take to be the recommended one, and who say [b??].
>
> I had a brief stint as a shop assistant in the tableware department at
> Le Printemps department store, and everybody, the customers as well as
> all the other shop assistants always used the "Bosch" pronunciation.
>
> The informal poll I've conducted among my nearest and dearest --they are
> getting used to being asked all sorts of bizarre questions related to
> newsgroup matters-- yields the same results: everybody says "Bosch". We
> are all reasonably well educated and some of us even studied German at
> school.
>
> We regularly pronounce "Bach" with a [k], though.
Is your Milou also addicted to Lok Lomond,
or do the Scots keep their ch pronunciation?
Jan
Jerry Friedman
> HVS <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
> > On 17 Feb 2010, J. J. Lodder wrote
>
> > >> It's about a French Alsatian
> > >> (that sounds a bit like a dog-breed, doesn't it?) and his name
> > >> is pronounced as in French "clin".
>
> > > 'An Alsatian' is primarily a dog breed, in English.
>
> > Well it was that, but in dog-breeding circles the name was changed
> > back to "German Shepherd" about 30 years ago.
>
> Among dog breeders perhaps.
> Googling on "an Alsatian" still throws up predominantly doggie hits.
>
> > > During WW II German shepperd dogs became very unfashionable,
> > > (der Adolf being very fond of them)
> > > <http://wow.blogs.com/words/hitler6-thumb.jpg>
> > > and they were renamed to the less offensive Alsatian,
>
> > I'm fairly certain the name change dated to during or just after WWI
> > rather than II.
>
> Quite possible, for England.
> I have the WW II version from an American friend,
I don't recall ever hearing or reading "Alsatian" for a German
shepherd in America. I happen to know it from British sources, but I
don't think most Americans, seeing "a French Alsatian", would think of
a dog.
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
> > J. J. Lodder <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl>:
> > >It works the same way in most languages.
> > >Saying Monsieur Klein, with the Monsieur in French
> > >and the Klein in German requires a noticable pause
> > >to switch the mental apparatus to the other language.
>
> > That's exactly what we'd do in English, without, as far as I'm aware,
> > any pause. Our mental apparatus is in "foreign" throughout.
>
> There must be.
> (switching randomly in mid-sentence
> between French and English for example)
> takes measurably more time.
And maybe they tried it on gente who've code-switched all their lives,
like some of my vecinos, pero I wouldn't bet on it, a la ve'.
I on the other hand hesitate in switching from English to any other
language I know any of, in speaking and in listening.
--
Jerry Friedman
Roland Hutchinson
> It works the same way in most languages. Saying Monsieur Klein, with the
> Monsieur in French and the Klein in German requires a noticable pause to
> switch the mental apparatus to the other language. So the Klein
> naturally becomes something which fits in with the French brain/muscle
> setting. It works the same way in Dutch too
> (where Klein is a common name)
> The Klein in Mijnheer Klein comes out subtly different from the Klein in
> Herr Klein.
It's /kleIn/ vs /klaIn/ or something like that, isn't it? Not
particularly subtle (about like "Jones" vs "Johns" in English), to my ear.
--
Roland Hutchinson
He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba,"
... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
--Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )
Jared
> I don't recall ever hearing or reading "Alsatian" for a German
> shepherd in America. I happen to know it from British sources, but I
> don't think most Americans, seeing "a French Alsatian", would think of
> a dog.
I would. I'm not sure what context imprinted me, but quite likely an
old mystery novel, which might or might not have been by an British
author.
J. J. Lodder
> On Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:23:25 +0100, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
> > It works the same way in most languages. Saying Monsieur Klein, with the
> > Monsieur in French and the Klein in German requires a noticable pause to
> > switch the mental apparatus to the other language. So the Klein
> > naturally becomes something which fits in with the French brain/muscle
> > setting. It works the same way in Dutch too
> > (where Klein is a common name)
> > The Klein in Mijnheer Klein comes out subtly different from the Klein in
> > Herr Klein.
>
> It's /kleIn/ vs /klaIn/ or something like that, isn't it? Not
> particularly subtle (about like "Jones" vs "Johns" in English), to my ear.
How different depends on which Dutch or German dialect
you are speaking,
Jan
Isabelle Cecchini
[...]
>
> Is your Milou also addicted to Lok Lomond,
> or do the Scots keep their ch pronunciation?
Yes, Lok Lomond as in Lok Ness. That's how it's pronounced in French.
And "Lomond" would have a nasal vowel at the end and the "d" would be
silent. I suspect an analogy with "lac Lï¿œman".
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Mike Barnes
You talk of sentences but in fact we don't have a sentence here, we have
two proper nouns. The pause that you mention is in effect a loss of
fluency. I don't have any fluency to lose, in either language.
>but I wouldn't bet on it,
I'm not a betting man.
Mike Lyle
> Robert Bannister wrote:
>> annily wrote:
>>> Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>> Ray O'Hara wrote:
>>>>> Would you rather I wrote Vill uh roy?
>>>>
>>>> I was just puzzled why you (and apparently several others) felt the
>>>> need to insert a syllable between the "vill" and the "roy".
>>>>>
>>>
>>> Because there's a vowel there, which I would pronounce as a schwa.
>>>
>>
>> I can't claim this is exhaustive, but I find the following place
>> names in South Australia. (I had only ever heard of Walkerville; more
>> recently my sister moved to Hectorville).
>>
>> Ashville, Copeville, Forestville, Frayville, Frewville, Glanville,
>> Hectorville, Normanville, Petersville, Taylorville, Walkerville,
>> Woodville. My point is that none of these have the final vowel
>> pronounced, nor
>> can I think of anywhere else in the English-speaking world where
>> "ville"
>> has two syllables.
>>
>
> That's completely different. They all have "ville" at the end of the
> word.
Quite so. On the spur of the moment I can't think of an English word in
which "e" is mute between "l" and "r". There are usually exceptions, so
it won't surprise me if some are produced; but there's nothing strange
about pronouncing "Villeroy" on the analogy of "gallery".
--
Mike.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
Right. There you are strolling through the University of Missouri–-St.
Louis along Bellerive Drive. How would you pronounce it? My first
attempt would be with the "e" in "ler" silent.
http://tinyurl.com/y8efkay
James Hogg
> Louis along Bellerive Drive. How would you pronounce it? My first
> attempt would be with the "e" in "ler" silent.
> http://tinyurl.com/y8efkay
And don't forget Coleraine.
--
James
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
wrote:
>> Right. There you are strolling through the University of Missouri–-St.
>> Louis along Bellerive Drive. How would you pronounce it? My first
>> attempt would be with the "e" in "ler" silent.
>> http://tinyurl.com/y8efkay
>
>And don't forget Coleraine.
Oops. I had forgotten that.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
And just a few miles from Coleraine is Castlerock. Also in Northern
Ireland is Castlereagh, and across the water in England is Castlerigg,
Keswick, Cumbria.
annily
Well, there is a town in Victoria, Australia, called "Coleraine" and
I've always prnonounced it /'koluhrayn/. Macquarie gives this as the
first (more-common) pronounciation, followed by /'kohlrayn/ as an
alternative.
--
Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia,
which may or may not influence my opinions.
annily
None of which is analogous to "Villeroy", since "castle" as a word has
two syllables, and "ville" as a suffix has one.
Roland Hutchinson
Well, that makes sense. Thank you.
I have my hands full attempting to speak some approximation of just one
rather bookish dialect apiece for each language!
Chuck Riggs
<mikeb...@bluebottle.com> wrote:
<snip>
>I'm not a betting man.
As I see it, each morning you get out of bed, you are betting your
life against some freakish act of nature or man. So we're all betting
men.
--
Regards,
Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE
J. J. Lodder
> On Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:20:14 +0100, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
> > Roland Hutchinson <my.sp...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:23:25 +0100, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >>
> >> > It works the same way in most languages. Saying Monsieur Klein, with
> >> > the Monsieur in French and the Klein in German requires a noticable
> >> > pause to switch the mental apparatus to the other language. So the
> >> > Klein naturally becomes something which fits in with the French
> >> > brain/muscle setting. It works the same way in Dutch too (where Klein
> >> > is a common name)
> >> > The Klein in Mijnheer Klein comes out subtly different from the Klein
> >> > in Herr Klein.
> >>
> >> It's /kleIn/ vs /klaIn/ or something like that, isn't it? Not
> >> particularly subtle (about like "Jones" vs "Johns" in English), to my
> >> ear.
> >
> > How different depends on which Dutch or German dialect you are speaking,
>
> Well, that makes sense. Thank you.
>
> I have my hands full attempting to speak some approximation of just one
> rather bookish dialect apiece for each language!
As a general rule in upper class/bookish/old-fashioned Dutch
the vowels are pronounced clearly.
(Like in Prof Higgin's language lessons)
Dialects tend to have them more slurred,
with the 'ei' going in the 'ai' direction.
And don't worry, speaking such a bookish dialect
is hard for the average Dutchman too,
It is becoming very unfashionable,
Jan
Mike Lyle
>>>> it? My first attempt would be with the "e" in "ler" silent.
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/y8efkay
>>>
>>> And don't forget Coleraine.
>>
>> Oops. I had forgotten that.
>
> And just a few miles from Coleraine is Castlerock. Also in Northern
> Ireland is Castlereagh, and across the water in England is Castlerigg,
> Keswick, Cumbria.
"Castle", as Annily notes, has an established pronunciation already. The
"e" after the "l" --which you'll have noticed is single --seems to be
there to lengthen the "o". But no need to bring in the artillery, or
keep hollering about it: we can settle down with the product of our
favourite distillery, and call in that rather greenery-yallery Queen,
Ellery, to solve the mystery for us. (Has he a sister Valerie?)
Athwart the topic, has anybody else noticed that a lot of people
pronounce "colliery" as "collery"? Like the shibboleth surname,
"Villiers". Does, or did, anybody say "coller" for "collier"?
--
Mike.
Garrett Wollman
Mike Lyle <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Athwart the topic, has anybody else noticed that a lot of people
>pronounce "colliery" as "collery"? Like the shibboleth surname,
>"Villiers". Does, or did, anybody say "coller" for "collier"?
I belive most AmE speakers pronounce "colliery" as "that weird forn
word for 'coal mine'".
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
Mike Lyle
> In article <hlmte6$ugn$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Mike Lyle <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Athwart the topic, has anybody else noticed that a lot of people
>> pronounce "colliery" as "collery"? Like the shibboleth surname,
>> "Villiers". Does, or did, anybody say "coller" for "collier"?
>
> I belive most AmE speakers pronounce "colliery" as "that weird forn
> word for 'coal mine'".
>
either, except as part of proper names. There's rhyme and reason,
though: I gather that in some places "coal mine" would once have seemed
a contradiction in terms, because "mine" meant "iron ore". (That's what
a South Wales "collier" told me, but it does seem to have been regional,
or complicated in some other way. The history looks a bit tangled from
OED's entry.)
--
Mike.
HVS
If asked -- which I never have been -- I'd have guessed that a
colliery is an operation that includes more than one individual
coal mine. ("Although there were once four mines at the
Fartlesthorpe Colliery, only one is now operational.")
I have absolutely no idea why I might think this is the case.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
Robert Bannister
> Garrett Wollman wrote:
>> In article <hlmte6$ugn$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>> Mike Lyle <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Athwart the topic, has anybody else noticed that a lot of people
>>> pronounce "colliery" as "collery"? Like the shibboleth surname,
>>> "Villiers". Does, or did, anybody say "coller" for "collier"?
>> I belive most AmE speakers pronounce "colliery" as "that weird forn
>> word for 'coal mine'".
>>
> I'm sure few BritEtcE speakers outside the mining areas use the word,
> either, except as part of proper names.
Plus those involved with collieries. I worked for a few months at Rye
House Power Station (near where Robin lives), and the trains of coal
slack we received every day were definitely termed to have come from
collieries, never from coal mines.
--
Rob Bannister
Mike Lyle
I don't think it works. OK, there may be the odd case, but I feel sure
that it's generally a case of each pit being a separate colliery. ("The
pit" is the usual word...now I come to think of it, there's even a place
near Bristol named Coalpit Heath: the South Wales coalfield spills over
into England.)
--
Mike.
Mike Barnes
>now I come to think of it, there's even a place
>near Bristol named Coalpit Heath: the South Wales coalfield spills over
>into England.)
Under, surely?
Mark Brader
> But nobody has explained how "ville" became converted to "villa". I find
> that very strange as there a number of English place names ending in
> "ville" that do not have this sound change.
But *that* "ville" is only a suffix. This sequence of letters at the
start of the words must be something else. So it must be vill-er-roy.
WTP?
("What's the problem?")
--
Mark Brader, Toronto, m...@vex.net
#define MSB(type) (~(((unsigned type)-1)>>1))
Chuck Riggs
<mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
>I don't think it works.
When said in my family, my mother, a stickler on the avoidance of
ambiguity, often objected to the above phrasing. To her, it implied we
weren't thinking. See what I was up against?
Robin Bignall
I was born in a mining district. The local pit, which employed many
of my neighbours, was Babbington Colliery. I don't think we ever
called its employees "coal miners", just "miners", and it was always
referred to informally as the "pit", with its pit heaps, pit cottages
etc.
--
Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England
Mike Lyle
[...]
>
> I was born in a mining district. The local pit, which employed many
> of my neighbours, was Babbington Colliery. I don't think we ever
> called its employees "coal miners", just "miners", and it was always
> referred to informally as the "pit", with its pit heaps, pit cottages
> etc.
Aficionados of L. Durrell's diplomatic humour will remember the headline
in The Central Balkan Herald reading, "Britain to buy Serbian
tit-props."
--
Mike.
Robert Bannister
That is what I have always heard from all English people who have been
involved in any way with working for a coal mine. Note that in my case
we were dealing with the colliery, not working down the pit or going to
the pit. I think "the pit" has to be the only or at least the main mine
where most people in town work.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> Rob Bannister:
>> But nobody has explained how "ville" became converted to "villa". I find
>> that very strange as there a number of English place names ending in
>> "ville" that do not have this sound change.
>
> But *that* "ville" is only a suffix. This sequence of letters at the
> start of the words must be something else. So it must be vill-er-roy.
> WTP?
>
> ("What's the problem?")
Not so much a problem as a puzzle. "Ville" for me has always been closer
to a stand-alone word than a mere suffix - maybe influence of French, I
don't know - but unless I were speaking German, I would pronounce
"ville" as "vill" in any position. There are a few other French words
that have crept into some posh English places, (grille, mille) and I
would give all these an "ill" pronunciation even if in French, the "ll"
was really more like a "y".
--
Rob Bannister
HVS
> Mark Brader wrote:
>> Rob Bannister:
>>> But nobody has explained how "ville" became converted to
>>> "villa". I find that very strange as there a number of English
>>> place names ending in "ville" that do not have this sound
>>> change.
>>
>> But *that* "ville" is only a suffix. This sequence of letters
>> at the start of the words must be something else. So it must
>> be vill-er-roy. WTP?
>>
>> ("What's the problem?")
>
> Not so much a problem as a puzzle. "Ville" for me has always
> been closer to a stand-alone word than a mere suffix
Hmm....I think that's a fairly idiosyncratic reaction. As an English
name element, I'd say it's almost always a secondary, suffixed
element when it appears at the end of a compound, rather than any
sort of a stand-alone element.
Roland Hutchinson
Yeah, I know. Oh, well -- it's not exactly as they won't immediately
spot me as a non-native speaker (or wannabe) the minute I open my mouth
anyway!
My French may be even further behind the times...
It's nice to be able to speak utterly classless American English in the
UK, though!