Meaning of the word Oakey?

[Ewan]

OAKEY (to rhyme with pokey)
I heard someone using the word "oakey" once a long time ago.
I can't remember what it meant but I think maybe the speaker came from the
midlands?
Any ideas anyone?
Ewan

[MM]

Well, there's okey-dokey or okey-doke (both of which are roundabout ways
of saying "OK") or there's Phil Oakey of "Together in Electric Dreams"
fame.

The latter reminds me of the time a few workmates and I passed a few idle
minutes trying to name the oceans of the world (I can't remember why,
other than for reasons of sheer boredom). Needless to say, someone
mentioned Billy.

Doubtless, this was at a time when "Going Gets Tough" (aka "Go and Get
Stuffed") was still fresh in our minds.

MM

[J. D. Mukherjee]

"Ewan" <spicy...@loxinfo.co.th> wrote in message
news:ap7uhs$3ie$1...@news.loxinfo.co.th...

IF you meant by that "Okay", or simply, "OK" ; as far as I can remember, it
is derived from the words "All correct". "O" is the symbol, denoting "all
inclusive" ; "K" represents the sound of the first letter of "correct".

Regards,

John

[N.Mitchum]

Ewan wrote:
----

> OAKEY (to rhyme with pokey)
> I heard someone using the word "oakey" once a long time ago.
> I can't remember what it meant but I think maybe the speaker came from the
> midlands?

>....

Perhaps you mean "Okie," a derogative name for Oklahomans. During
the Depression many thousands of them migrated from their home
state, hoping to escape the dust bowl. Needless to say, their
arrival was not greeted by people in other states with open arms
and smiles. Even in the 1950s we referred to the migrants, then
long-settled, as "Okies."

You may have heard the song, *I'm an Okie from Muskogee*.

What "midlands" do you mean? American?

----NM

[sand]

On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:57:07 +0700, "Ewan" <spicy...@loxinfo.co.th>
wrote:

You can get a clue by reading John Steinbeck's novel " The Grapes of
Wrath". The Okeys were people from Oklahoma that left their farms
because of the dust storms that destroyed any possibility of raising
produce in the drought of the 1930's in the central USA known as the
dust bowl. Many migrated to California where they were persecuted by
the police and local inhabitants.

Jan Sand

[Mike Barnes]

NSOED:

Okie /"<schwa>Uki/ n. colloq. Chiefly US.
M20. [f. as OK(LAHOMA + -IE.]

A migrant agricultural worker; spec. one from Oklahoma who had been
forced to leave a farm during the depression of the 1930s. Also, a
native or inhabitant of Oklahoma.

--
Mike Barnes

[Ray Heindl]

"Ewan" <spicy...@loxinfo.co.th> wrote:

Maybe it meant "okay", as in the longer phrase "okey-dokey". Or maybe
it was "oaky", an adjective beloved of wine reviewers.

--
Ray Heindl

[Mike Oliver]

MM wrote:
> Well, there's okey-dokey or okey-doke (both of which are roundabout ways
> of saying "OK") or there's Phil Oakey of "Together in Electric Dreams"
> fame.

Isn't it a brand of sunglasses? The one tha
advertises "Thermonuclear Protection"?

--
I study nuclear science, I love my classes
I got a crazy teacher; he wears dark glasses
Things are goin' great, and they're only gettin' better
I'm doin' all right, gettin' good grades; the future's so bright
I gotta wear shades
--Timbuk3

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:00:22 -0700, Mike Oliver <oli...@math.ucla.edu>
wrote:

>MM wrote:
>> Well, there's okey-dokey or okey-doke (both of which are roundabout ways
>> of saying "OK") or there's Phil Oakey of "Together in Electric Dreams"
>> fame.
>
>Isn't it a brand of sunglasses? The one tha
>advertises "Thermonuclear Protection"?

That's Oakley.

Tony Cooper aka: tony_co...@yahoo.com
If you think we drive badly in Florida, you should see us vote.

[Mike Barnes]

In alt.usage.english, Mike Oliver wrote:
>MM wrote:
>> Well, there's okey-dokey or okey-doke (both of which are roundabout ways
>> of saying "OK") or there's Phil Oakey of "Together in Electric Dreams"
>> fame.
>
>Isn't it a brand of sunglasses? The one tha
>advertises "Thermonuclear Protection"?

That's "Oakley". I like the "thermonuclear protection": accurate,
educational, thought-provoking. More advertising should be like that.

--
Mike Barnes

[Dave Clarke]

On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:57:07 +0700, "Ewan" <spicy...@loxinfo.co.th>
wrote:

>OAKEY (to rhyme with pokey)

Ice cream

Birmingham & black country I think.

It's a shortened version of the hokey pockey man.

What about pumps?
--
Dave Clarke

[Earle Jones]

In article <ap7uhs$3ie$1...@news.loxinfo.co.th>,
"Ewan" <spicy...@loxinfo.co.th> wrote:

*
A wine aged in an oak barrel may be said to be "oaky".

This could be either a complaint or a compliment, depending on the taste
of the taster.

In California, some wines, especially cheap whites, are kept overlong in
the barrel since oak tends to mask some of the undesirable tastes.

earle
*

[Earle Jones]

In article <af6fruk527v0j4u7a...@4ax.com>,
sand <jan_...@hotmail.com> wrote:

*
Did Steinbeck write "Oakey" or "Okie". The latter is more familiar to
me.

earle
*

[Tony Cooper]

On Sat, 26 Oct 2002 00:46:34 GMT, Earle Jones <earle...@attbi.com>
wrote:

>Did Steinbeck write "Oakey" or "Okie". The latter is more familiar to
>me.

Okie. Never "oakey". Some whiskey may be oakey, but not Sooners.

[sand]

On Sat, 26 Oct 2002 00:46:34 GMT, Earle Jones <earle...@attbi.com>
wrote:

>Did Steinbeck write "Oakey" or "Okie". The latter is more familiar to
>me.
>
>earle
>*

Probably "Okie". I didn't check it.

Jan Sand

[sand]

On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:44:56 GMT, ping...@arrakis.es (Dave Clarke)
wrote:

>
>Ice cream
>
>Birmingham & black country I think.
>
>It's a shortened version of the hokey pockey man.
>
>What about pumps?

Wouldn't that be "hokey pokey"? I would think that "pockey" rhymes
with ice hockey.

Jan Sand

[Robert Bannister]

Ewan wrote:

Never heard 'okie' by itself, but 'oky-doky' or however it's spelt seems
normal, although verging on baby talk.

--
Rob Bannister

[Ewan]

"Dave Clarke" <ping...@arrakis.es> wrote in message
news:3db9ba87...@news.arrakis.es...

> On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:57:07 +0700, "Ewan" <spicy...@loxinfo.co.th>
> wrote:
>
> >OAKEY (to rhyme with pokey)
> >I heard someone using the word "oakey" once a long time ago.
> >I can't remember what it meant but I think maybe the speaker came from
the
> >midlands?
> >Any ideas anyone?
>
> Ice cream
>
> Birmingham & black country I think.
>

Birmingham & black country???
Alabama & negroes?
Ewan

[Dave Clarke]

On Sat, 26 Oct 2002 13:21:51 +0700, "Ewan" <spicy...@loxinfo.co.th>
wrote:

Go west a bit.
--
Dave Clarke

[Ewan]

"Dave Clarke" <ping...@arrakis.es> wrote in message

news:3dba62f2...@news.arrakis.es...

San Francisco?

[Dave Clarke]

On Sat, 26 Oct 2002 23:40:14 +0700, "Ewan" <spicy...@loxinfo.co.th>
wrote:

>
>"Dave Clarke" <ping...@arrakis.es> wrote in message
>news:3dba62f2...@news.arrakis.es...
>> On Sat, 26 Oct 2002 13:21:51 +0700, "Ewan" <spicy...@loxinfo.co.th>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >"Dave Clarke" <ping...@arrakis.es> wrote in message
>> >news:3db9ba87...@news.arrakis.es...
>> >> On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:57:07 +0700, "Ewan" <spicy...@loxinfo.co.th>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >OAKEY (to rhyme with pokey)
>> >> >I heard someone using the word "oakey" once a long time ago.
>> >> >I can't remember what it meant but I think maybe the speaker came from
>> >the
>> >> >midlands?
>> >> >Any ideas anyone?
>> >>
>> >> Ice cream
>> >>
>> >> Birmingham & black country I think.
>> >>
>> >Birmingham & black country???
>> >Alabama & negroes?
>>
>> Go west a bit.
>

>San Francisco?

Now swim a bit, then cross a continent, or so.
--
Dave Clarke

[Dave Clarke]

Yes, all spellings are aproximate.
Thinking about it may have been the hokey coakey man.
--
Dave Clarke

[sand]

On Sun, 27 Oct 2002 18:18:03 GMT, ping...@arrakis.es (Dave Clarke)
wrote:

>On Sat, 26 Oct 2002 06:24:38 +0300, sand <jan_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:44:56 GMT, ping...@arrakis.es (Dave Clarke)
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Ice cream
>>>
>>>Birmingham & black country I think.
>>>
>>>It's a shortened version of the hokey pockey man.
>>>
>>>What about pumps?
>>
>>Wouldn't that be "hokey pokey"? I would think that "pockey" rhymes
>>with ice hockey.
>
>Yes, all spellings are aproximate.
>Thinking about it may have been the hokey coakey man.

When I was a kid in Brooklyn in the early 1930's,the guy with the
horse driven ice cream wagon was called "hokey pokey".

Jan Sand

[Mike Lyle]

Earle Jones <earle...@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<earle.jones-9295...@netnews.attbi.com>...
[...]

> A wine aged in an oak barrel may be said to be "oaky".
>
> This could be either a complaint or a compliment, depending on the taste
> of the taster.
>
> In California, some wines, especially cheap whites, are kept overlong in
> the barrel since oak tends to mask some of the undesirable tastes.

From Tesco's *What's New!* handout:
"Normans Unwooded Cabernet Merlot...fruit flavours complemented by
subtle spicy oak."

Not so much subtle as homoeopathic, perhaps.

Mike.

[hollyt...@gmail.com]

It means ice cream in Leicester!

[Peter Young]

On 7 Aug 2019 hollyt...@gmail.com wrote:

> It means ice cream in Leicester!

Is that related to the British 19th Century "Hokey Pokey", slang for
ice-cream. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hokey_pokey_(ice_cream)>

People have suggested all sorts of false etymology for that term.

ObAUE: Why did the dance-song known in Leftpondia as Hokey Cokey become
known as Hokey Pokey in Rightpondia. Over Here the "Pokey" bit would have
a mild obscene connotation.

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 09:20:01 -0700 (PDT), hollyt...@gmail.com wrote:

>It means ice cream in Leicester!

Wikipedia has it in this list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Midlands_English

oakie
ice cream (common in Leicestershire) see Hokey cokey

The lyrics of the dance Hokey cokey:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hokey_cokey#Origins_and_meaning

<various explanations>
In recent times various other claims about the origins of the song
have arisen, though they are all contradicted by the publication
history. According to one such account, in 1940, during the Blitz in
London, a Canadian officer suggested to Al Tabor, a British
bandleader of the 1920s-1940s, that he write a party song with
actions similar to "Under the Spreading Chestnut Tree". The
inspiration for the song's title that resulted, "The Hokey Pokey",
supposedly came from an ice cream vendor whom Tabor had heard as a
boy, calling out, "Hokey pokey penny a lump. Have a lick make you
jump".

The OED says:

hokey-pokey, n.

2. A cheap kind of ice cream, sold by street vendors.
Hokey Pokey is a proprietary name for ice cream in the United
Kingdom and the United States.

It doesn't explain the origin of the phrase but it does include this
quotation:

1888 Pall Mall Gaz. 25 Sept. 3/2 The correct origin of the term
‘Hokey Pokey, a penny a lump’. [An incident is related as tending
to identify the term with the It. O che poco! ‘O how little!’]

Italians were, and are, involved in selling ice cream in the UK.

It may be that "oakey" or "oakie" comes from the original Italian "O
che..." or is "hokey" with the "h" dropped.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[RH Draney]

On 8/7/2019 10:28 AM, Peter Young wrote:
> On 7 Aug 2019 hollyt...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> It means ice cream in Leicester!
>
> Is that related to the British 19th Century "Hokey Pokey", slang for
> ice-cream. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hokey_pokey_(ice_cream)>
>
> People have suggested all sorts of false etymology for that term.
>
> ObAUE: Why did the dance-song known in Leftpondia as Hokey Cokey become
> known as Hokey Pokey in Rightpondia. Over Here the "Pokey" bit would have
> a mild obscene connotation.

While over here, "Cokey" implies drug use....r

[charles]

In article <gr0jht...@mid.individual.net>, RH Draney <dado...@cox.net>
wrote:

It does now, but did it 100 years ago?

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Paul Wolff]

On Wed, 7 Aug 2019, Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk> posted:

>On 7 Aug 2019 hollyt...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> It means ice cream in Leicester!
>
>Is that related to the British 19th Century "Hokey Pokey", slang for
>ice-cream. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hokey_pokey_(ice_cream)>
>
>People have suggested all sorts of false etymology for that term.
>
>ObAUE: Why did the dance-song known in Leftpondia as Hokey Cokey become
>known as Hokey Pokey in Rightpondia. Over Here the "Pokey" bit would have
>a mild obscene connotation.

When I've danced the dance, and right-pondially too, it's always been
the hokey-cokey.

--
Paul

[Sam Plusnet]

John Masefield's account of his time as a boy on HMS Conway (1891–1893)
mentions hokey pokey, which was sold by Italian vendors.
When I first read it, it took me some time to discover what it was.

--
Sam Plusnet

[John Varela]

On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 17:28:51 UTC, Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk>
wrote:

> On 7 Aug 2019 hollyt...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > It means ice cream in Leicester!
>
> Is that related to the British 19th Century "Hokey Pokey", slang for
> ice-cream. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hokey_pokey_(ice_cream)>
>
> People have suggested all sorts of false etymology for that term.
>
> ObAUE: Why did the dance-song known in Leftpondia as Hokey Cokey become
> known as Hokey Pokey in Rightpondia.

I think you reversed left and right there. I know it as the
Hokey-Pokey. I'm unsure, but I think I learned the song at a
summer camp deep in the heart of Texas.

Over Here the "Pokey" bit would have
> a mild obscene connotation.

--
John Varela

[RH Draney]

On 8/7/2019 11:56 AM, charles wrote:
> In article <gr0jht...@mid.individual.net>, RH Draney <dado...@cox.net>
> wrote:
>> On 8/7/2019 10:28 AM, Peter Young wrote:
>>>
>>> ObAUE: Why did the dance-song known in Leftpondia as Hokey Cokey become
>>> known as Hokey Pokey in Rightpondia. Over Here the "Pokey" bit would
>>> have a mild obscene connotation.
>
>> While over here, "Cokey" implies drug use....r
>
> It does now, but did it 100 years ago?

I can give you 88 years, at any rate...it appears with that meaning in
the lyrics of "Minnie the Moocher"....r

[David Kleinecke]

Oakie Dokes was the name of a strip reprinted (allegedly) in
the pre-superman Famous Funnies comic book (late 1930's).
At least that's what I remember.

[bill van]

On 2019-08-07 17:28:51 +0000, Peter Young said:

> On 7 Aug 2019 hollyt...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> It means ice cream in Leicester!
>
> Is that related to the British 19th Century "Hokey Pokey", slang for
> ice-cream. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hokey_pokey_(ice_cream)>
>
> People have suggested all sorts of false etymology for that term.
>
> ObAUE: Why did the dance-song known in Leftpondia as Hokey Cokey become
> known as Hokey Pokey in Rightpondia. Over Here the "Pokey" bit would have
> a mild obscene connotation.
>
> Peter.

I've never heard the "Hokey Cokey" version. "Pokey" did not have any racy
connotations when I heard the song, when I was in my early teens and
attending junior high school in the early 1960s in white, conservative
Calgary, Alberta. It was a way to get shy, awkward adolescents to attempt
to dance and sing along to the song:


Everybody form a circle
Put your left foot in
Your left foot out
Your left foot in
And shake it all about
You do the hokey pokey
And turn yourself around

Now put your right foot in
Your right foot out
Right foot in
Then you shake it all about
And then you do the hokey pokey
Turn yourself around
That's what it's all about

etc.

Looks like it's still a simple song aimed at getting children to try
some dance moves,
at least in some quarters:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzSJBowPECY

bill

[Peter Young]

On 8 Aug 2019 "John Varela" <jv919a...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 17:28:51 UTC, Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk>
> wrote:

>> On 7 Aug 2019 hollyt...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> It means ice cream in Leicester!
>>
>> Is that related to the British 19th Century "Hokey Pokey", slang for
>> ice-cream. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hokey_pokey_(ice_cream)>
>>
>> People have suggested all sorts of false etymology for that term.
>>
>> ObAUE: Why did the dance-song known in Leftpondia as Hokey Cokey become
>> known as Hokey Pokey in Rightpondia.

> I think you reversed left and right there.

I did. That was my senile moment of the day.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Did he really write "on"? Surely someone who had sailed in one of Her
Majesty's ships would have written "in"?

> HMS Conway (1891–1893) mentions hokey pokey, which was sold by Italian
> vendors.
> When I first read it, it took me some time to discover what it was.


--

athel

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

He didn't "sail" in HMS Conway. "HMS Conway" was a training
establishment on board a ship of that name stationed on the Mersey near
Liverpool. It was moved to north Wales during WWII. I became aware of
its existence when I was living in Bangor at that time.

Although it was named "HMS" it was a training place for merchant navy
cadets not Royal Navy cadets.

Over the years three different ships were used as "HMS Conway".
The last one was wrecked when being moved back to Liverpool. An on-land
training camp was set up in Plas Newydd, North Wales, to continue the
training of merchant navy cadets.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Conway_(school_ship)>

During the 1960s permanent premises were built in the grounds of
Plas Newydd, where Conway's last ten years passed in what is known
in naval parlance as a "stone frigate"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_frigate

Informally, a stone frigate is a naval establishment on land. The
term has its origin in Britain's Royal Navy after its use of Diamond
Rock, off Martinique, as a 'sloop of war' to harass the French. (The
British Navy was prohibited from ruling over land, so the land was
called a boat.)

>
>> HMS Conway (1891–1893) mentions hokey pokey, which was sold by Italian
>> vendors.
>> When I first read it, it took me some time to discover what it was.

--

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

OK, but I still doubt that someone with a naval background would write
"on", but maybe "at" for an on-shore establishment. I'm pretty sure
that when my father was at HMS Terror on the north shore of Singapore
he would have said "at HMS Terror", and never "on".

> It was moved to north Wales during WWII. I became aware of
> its existence when I was living in Bangor at that time.
>
> Although it was named "HMS" it was a training place for merchant navy
> cadets not Royal Navy cadets.
>
> Over the years three different ships were used as "HMS Conway".
> The last one was wrecked when being moved back to Liverpool. An on-land
> training camp was set up in Plas Newydd, North Wales, to continue the
> training of merchant navy cadets.
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Conway_(school_ship)>
>
> During the 1960s permanent premises were built in the grounds of
> Plas Newydd, where Conway's last ten years passed in what is known
> in naval parlance as a "stone frigate"
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_frigate
>
> Informally, a stone frigate is a naval establishment on land. The
> term has its origin in Britain's Royal Navy after its use of Diamond
> Rock, off Martinique, as a 'sloop of war' to harass the French. (The
> British Navy was prohibited from ruling over land, so the land was
> called a boat.)
>>
>>> HMS Conway (1891–1893) mentions hokey pokey, which was sold by
>>> Italian>> vendors.
>>> When I first read it, it took me some time to discover what it was.


--

athel

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Thu, 8 Aug 2019 12:50:58 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

"on" was used by Sam Plusnet. There was no indication that he was
directly quoting Masefield.

>> HMS Conway (1891–1893) mentions hokey pokey, which was sold by Italian
>> vendors.
>> When I first read it, it took me some time to discover what it was.

--

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 8 Aug 2019 13:58:57 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>> He didn't "sail" in HMS Conway. "HMS Conway" was a training
>> establishment on board a ship of that name stationed on the Mersey near
>> Liverpool.
>
>OK, but I still doubt that someone with a naval background would write
>"on", but maybe "at" for an on-shore establishment. I'm pretty sure
>that when my father was at HMS Terror on the north shore of Singapore
>he would have said "at HMS Terror", and never "on".
>

Now I'm wondering what would be the right terminology to describe
being trained at the Orlando Naval Training Center when the USS
Bluejacket was in place. The NTC has been closed, but when it was
operational recruits trained on/at/in a 240 foot-long wooden replica
of a 1940s destroyer escort.

It has been reliably reported that no sailor ever became seasick on
board the USS Bluejacket.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:USS_Blue_Jacket_training_ship_at_NTC_Orlando_c1976.jpg
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Peter T. Daniels]

Curious. I've never encountered it in any context other than weddings.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, August 8, 2019 at 7:59:02 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> OK, but I still doubt that someone with a naval background would write
> "on", but maybe "at" for an on-shore establishment. I'm pretty sure
> that when my father was at HMS Terror on the north shore of Singapore
> he would have said "at HMS Terror", and never "on".

Hmm. A rather different sort of name than HMS Indomitable! ("Billy Budd."
Presumably Melville invented the name, but on an existing pattern?)

[Tony Cooper]

The only time I've encountered it was in Waterford, Ireland in 1969.
We went to a cčilidh one evening for the trad Irish music and dancing.
We were somewhat taken aback when they announced the next dance would
be the hokey pokey. Everyone joined in, and it seemed that they were
as familiar with the hokey pokey as they were with the traditional
dances.

My wife insisted that we join the line. She knew the moves, but I had
no idea what to do.

I don't remember if the caller said "hokey pokey" or "hokey cokey". He
might as well have been speaking Gaelic for all I knew.

[CDB]

There doesn't always have to be an ocean nearby.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Carleton

A quick scan of the text didn't turn up a relevant prepositional phrase,
but I agree that it would probably be "at HMCS Carleton".

[Sam Plusnet]

If he did, it was in parallel with the Royal Navy - although they
pre-plagarised him.

From the Wikipedia entry.

"Two warships of the Royal Navy have borne the name HMS Indomitable:

HMS Indomitable (1907) was the first battlecruiser in the world, beating
sister ship HMS Inflexible by four months. She was launched in 1907 and
scrapped in 1922.
HMS Indomitable (92) was an Illustrious-class armoured fleet aircraft
carrier launched in 1940. She served in the Second World War and was
scrapped in 1955."

--
Sam Plusnet

[bill van]

[snide...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, August 8, 2019 at 4:20:14 PM UTC-7, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 08-Aug-19 16:23, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 8, 2019 at 7:59:02 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >
> >> OK, but I still doubt that someone with a naval background would write
> >> "on", but maybe "at" for an on-shore establishment. I'm pretty sure
> >> that when my father was at HMS Terror on the north shore of Singapore
> >> he would have said "at HMS Terror", and never "on".
> >
> > Hmm. A rather different sort of name than HMS Indomitable! ("Billy Budd."
> > Presumably Melville invented the name, but on an existing pattern?)
> >
> If he did, it was in parallel with the Royal Navy - although they
> pre-plagarised him.

Hmmm. _Billy Budd, Sailor_ was published in 1924, but it was an opus posthumous. Melville went off-watch in 1891.

>
> From the Wikipedia entry.
>
> "Two warships of the Royal Navy have borne the name HMS Indomitable:
>
> HMS Indomitable (1907) was the first battlecruiser in the world, beating
> sister ship HMS Inflexible by four months. She was launched in 1907 and
> scrapped in 1922.
> HMS Indomitable (92) was an Illustrious-class armoured fleet aircraft
> carrier launched in 1940. She served in the Second World War and was
> scrapped in 1955."

/dps "plusquamperfekt"

[bill van]

And that blank post was mine. Fortunately, senile moments are easily forgotten.

bill

[Peter T. Daniels]

The novella was left incomplete, and published only posthumously, in 1924.

It seems unlikely that the editor gave it the name in honor of the
scrapped vessel.

Given Phobos and Deimos, was there also an HMS Fear?

[Sam Plusnet]

On 09-Aug-19 4:00, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> Given Phobos and Deimos, was there also an HMS Fear?

No, but the name HMS Fearless has been used seven times.

Thinking of words which have undergone a profound change in meaning, one
of those vessels is recorded as

"HMS Fearless (1837) was a wooden paddlewheel survey vessel, formerly
the GPO's Flamer transferred and renamed in 1837, and broken up in 1875."

Would a modern vessel be called "SS Flamer"?

--
Sam Plusnet

[J. J. Lodder]

Great. It reminds me of Parkinson's Law.
Parkinson noted that 'Work expands to fill the time available'.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._Northcote_Parkinson>

One of his examples was the Royal Navy,
which had an ever increasing bureaucracy on land
for ever fewer ships at sea.

Parkinson predicted that sometime in the future
the Royal Navy would have more admirals than ships.
Does anyone know if that stage has been reached yet?

Antway, it would seem that Canada is way ahead of Britain
in naval progress,

Jan

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, August 9, 2019 at 1:17:01 PM UTC-4, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 09-Aug-19 4:00, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> > Given Phobos and Deimos, was there also an HMS Fear?
>
> No, but the name HMS Fearless has been used seven times.

That coheres with "Indomitable" but, clearly, not with "Terror."

Coincidentally, this afternoon there was a rebroadcast of an interview
about Michael Palin's book on the Erebus (a warship for which there was
no use after 1815), which had a tremendously successful research voyage
to Antarctica and a tremendously tragic attempt to discover a Northwest
Passage. He mentioned that it was the sister ship to the Terror (which
was the point of my query, even though Sam deleted it). He rendered it
as 'deepest reaches of Hell'.

> Thinking of words which have undergone a profound change in meaning, one
> of those vessels is recorded as
>
> "HMS Fearless (1837) was a wooden paddlewheel survey vessel, formerly
> the GPO's Flamer transferred and renamed in 1837, and broken up in 1875."
>
> Would a modern vessel be called "SS Flamer"?

Maybe if it was in the video for the Village People's "In the Navy."

[Paul Wolff]

On Fri, 9 Aug 2019, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> posted:

So if you're Indomitable, you have a life expectancy of 15 years.

Asterix does better than that.
--
Paul

[J. J. Lodder]

Paul Wolff <boun...@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:

> On Fri, 9 Aug 2019, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> posted:
> >On 08-Aug-19 16:23, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> >> On Thursday, August 8, 2019 at 7:59:02 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden:

> >>> OK, but I still doubt that someone with a naval background would
> >>>write
> >>> "on", but maybe "at" for an on-shore establishment. I'm pretty sure
> >>> that when my father was at HMS Terror on the north shore of Singapore
> >>> he would have said "at HMS Terror", and never "on".
> >> Hmm. A rather different sort of name than HMS Indomitable! ("Billy
> >>Budd."
> >> Presumably Melville invented the name, but on an existing pattern?)
> >>
> >If he did, it was in parallel with the Royal Navy - although they
> >pre-plagarised him.
> >
> >From the Wikipedia entry.
> >
> >"Two warships of the Royal Navy have borne the name HMS Indomitable:
> >
> >HMS Indomitable (1907) was the first battlecruiser in the world,
> >beating sister ship HMS Inflexible by four months. She was launched in
> >1907 and scrapped in 1922.
> >HMS Indomitable (92) was an Illustrious-class armoured fleet aircraft
> >carrier launched in 1940. She served in the Second World War and was
> >scrapped in 1955."
> >
> So if you're Indomitable, you have a life expectancy of 15 years.
>
> Asterix does better than that.

Perhaps, but we don't know.
All of the canon is set between 52 BCE (Battle of Alesia)
and the death of Julius Caesar in 44 BCE.
Strictly speaking much less even, because we know
that Abraracoursix fought at Alesia, when a young man.
The terribly experience must have aged him very much.

Asterix was not only indomitable, he was -very- busy.

Jan

[Sam Plusnet]

The pace of change in naval design back then was incredible.
We were pouring huge sums into new warships only to have them become
obsolete almost before they were launched.

--
Sam Plusnet

[charles]

In article <1oc078b.za4...@de-ster.xs4all.nl>,

about 1990, I remember someone bemoaning the fact that "you could fit the
entire RAF into Cardiff Arms Park".

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[J. J. Lodder]

It started with HMS Warrior (1861)
and it lasted until WWII.
Fortunately Warrior has survived,
and is now a museum ship. (in Portsmouth)
<https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Warrior_(1861)>

She assured British dominance on the seas
without ever having fired a shot in anger,

Jan

[John Ritson]

In article <1oc078b.za4...@de-ster.xs4all.nl>, J. J. Lodder

<nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> writes

34 serving Admirals, Vice Admirals and Rear Admirals compared to 75
ships, but only 19 actual operating warships.

https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/royal-navy-now-more-
admirals-2605063

--
John Ritson

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[J. J. Lodder]

Parkinson would have smiled sardonically, if he had lived to see it.
BTW, Parkinson was also a naval historian and novelist.
He wrote some 'thundering guns' naval fiction,
and the definitive biography of Horatio Hornblower,
(The life and times of....)

Jan

[Sam Plusnet]

There are also many fewer stone frigates these days.

The list of former shore Naval establishments contains 57 entries - in
the "A to D" section alone.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Sam Plusnet]

In many ways she is more interesting than HMS Victory, which is only a
few yards away.


--
Sam Plusnet

[J. J. Lodder]

> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Warrior_(1860)>

> >
> > She assured British dominance on the seas
> > without ever having fired a shot in anger,
> >
> In many ways she is more interesting than HMS Victory, which is only a
> few yards away.

Sure. Victory represents the endpoint of 200 years of nautical design.
She is the biggist you can build using oak only,
witout iron reinforcements.
(but arkeologist refuse to believe that)

Warrior is an entirely new beginning.
No wooden ship could confront her and survive.
(but Americans refuse to believe that. They prefer to believe
that it was Lincoln's big words and threats that stopped Britain
from interfering in their Civil War)

Unfortunate for alternative history buffs perhaps.
It would have been a nice demonstration of the new times
to see HMS Warrior reducing the Union fleet to matchwood,

Jan

[Peter T. Daniels]

Now JJ comes out in favor of slavery. Maybe an ancestor of his was a slaver.

[J. J. Lodder]

More recently I saw some British moaning on the occasion
of the announcement of close Anglo-French naval cooperation.
(we have been allies for a long time now, but Trafalgar and all that)
It was accompanied by a wry comment that
'Those Frechies seem to have some planes that will actually fly"

Jan

[Lanarcam]

Le 11/08/2019 à 16:33, J. J. Lodder a écrit :
>
> 'Those Frechies seem to have some planes that will actually fly"
>

Das war eher frech...

[Sam Plusnet]

On 11-Aug-19 5:23, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

>> Unfortunate for alternative history buffs perhaps.
>> It would have been a nice demonstration of the new times
>> to see HMS Warrior reducing the Union fleet to matchwood,
>
> Now JJ comes out in favor of slavery. Maybe an ancestor of his was a slaver.
>

I do understand why you dislike JJ's attitude towards the US, but that
assumption involves a quite incredible leap.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Paul Wolff]

On Sun, 11 Aug 2019, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> posted:

There's no "assumption". It's just plain deliberate misrepresentation.
--
Paul

[Peter T. Daniels]

I do believe the Dutch are known to have had commercial interests in Africa!

[Peter T. Daniels]

The word "maybe" indicates neither an "assumption" nor a "misrepresentation."
It is no different from JJ's latest claims about the prevalence of Nazi
sympathizers in the US -- except for being phrased as a hypothetical.
You (pl.) really need to find someplace else to direct your ire.

[J. J. Lodder]

It's PTD, let it go.
I find the point an amusing one.
Americans like to believe that it was their ferocious US Navy
that deterred the British from interfering in their civil war.

It is somewhat like the Swiss,
who like to believe that it was their fierce home grown army
that deterred Hitler from invading their country.

In both cases the real reason was well-understood self interest,

Jan

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, August 11, 2019 at 4:29:16 PM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
> > On 11-Aug-19 5:23, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

[no, he did not]

You probably don't know that the British diplomat dealing with the Civil
War problems was none other than the same A. H. Layard who not long
before had dug up ancient Nineveh and shipped many of its treasures
back to the British Museum.

[J. J. Lodder]

??? There is nothing hypothetical about that.
(one example will do to prove existence)
See
<https://www.teenvogue.com/story/american-nazis-jewish-gangsters-history>
for a nice picture of some of them.
If you want a more mainstream source, here is Time Magazine
saying very similar things
<https://time.com/5414055/american-nazi-sympathy-book/>

It is based on the book
Hitler's American Friends: The Third Reich's Supporters in the United
States Hardcover - October 2, 2018 by Bradley W. Hart
for example at
<https://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-American-Friends-Reichs-Supporters/dp/1250
148952>

Jan

--
"So why was that past overlooked for so long?" (Time Magazine)

[Jerry Friedman]

On 8/11/19 2:29 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
>
>> On 11-Aug-19 5:23, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>>>> Unfortunate for alternative history buffs perhaps.
>>>> It would have been a nice demonstration of the new times
>>>> to see HMS Warrior reducing the Union fleet to matchwood,
>>>
>>> Now JJ comes out in favor of slavery. Maybe an ancestor of his was a slaver.
>>>
>>
>> I do understand why you dislike JJ's attitude towards the US, but that
>> assumption involves a quite incredible leap.
>
> It's PTD, let it go.
> I find the point an amusing one.
> Americans like to believe that it was their ferocious US Navy
> that deterred the British from interfering in their civil war.

...
Maybe some like to believe that, but I don't remember ever hearing it.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Paul Wolff]

On Sun, 11 Aug 2019, Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> posted:

>On Sunday, August 11, 2019 at 3:40:33 PM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:
>> On Sun, 11 Aug 2019, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> posted:
>> >On 11-Aug-19 5:23, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> >
>> >>> Unfortunate for alternative history buffs perhaps.
>> >>> It would have been a nice demonstration of the new times
>> >>> to see HMS Warrior reducing the Union fleet to matchwood,
>> >> Now JJ comes out in favor of slavery. Maybe an ancestor of his was a
>> >>slaver.
>> >
>> >I do understand why you dislike JJ's attitude towards the US, but that
>> >assumption involves a quite incredible leap.
>> >
>> There's no "assumption". It's just plain deliberate misrepresentation.
>
>The word "maybe" indicates neither an "assumption" nor a "misrepresentation."

It's an insult.

>It is no different from JJ's latest claims about the prevalence of Nazi
>sympathizers in the US -- except for being phrased as a hypothetical.
>You (pl.) really need to find someplace else to direct your ire.

And accusing JJ to be in favor of slavery is a constructive contribution
to the discourse of this newsgroup? Even I, the most tolerant and
forgiving of men, become fed up with such standards in the end.
--
Paul

[David Kleinecke]

I was taught in the 1930's that while one party in England
valued the cotton trade enough to favor the South England
was seen - during the war - as sympathetic to the Union and
was seen as a virtual ally after emancipation.

I think the best place to look for concrete evidence would be
a study of the Union campaign against blockade runners and the
British reaction to that campaign.

[J. J. Lodder]

Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

> On Sunday, August 11, 2019 at 4:29:16 PM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
> > > On 11-Aug-19 5:23, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> [no, he did not]

[Yes, you did. Count the > > > ]

> > > >> Unfortunate for alternative history buffs perhaps.
> > > >> It would have been a nice demonstration of the new times
> > > >> to see HMS Warrior reducing the Union fleet to matchwood,
> > > > Now JJ comes out in favor of slavery. Maybe an ancestor of his was a
> > > > slaver.
> > > I do understand why you dislike JJ's attitude towards the US, but that
> > > assumption involves a quite incredible leap.
> >
> > It's PTD, let it go.
> > I find the point an amusing one.
> > Americans like to believe that it was their ferocious US Navy
> > that deterred the British from interfering in their civil war.
> >
> > It is somewhat like the Swiss,
> > who like to believe that it was their fierce home grown army
> > that deterred Hitler from invading their country.
> >
> > In both cases the real reason was well-understood self interest,
>
> You probably don't know that the British diplomat dealing with the Civil
> War problems was none other than the same A. H. Layard who not long
> before had dug up ancient Nineveh and shipped many of its treasures
> back to the British Museum.

This must be a goal post jump, rather than just a move,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Britain never supported blockade running militarily.
(as that would have caused war with the Union)

Apart from that Britain strongly supported blockade running
on the level of private individuals.
They organised it, financed it, arranged for storage in the Bahamas,
and many of the blockade running ships were British built.

It was a very profitable high risk business,
but it was perfectly legal.
AFAIK the Union didn't object tp private persons doing it,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

I would have to search again for where I saw that.
With a broader brush: Yhe reason Britain did not interfere
in the American Civil War was not fear of the Union's strength.
It was that Britain was deeply divided over it.

The cotton industry, and the manufacturing industry in general
wanted the blockade broken in the name of profits.
Public opinion otoh was strongly opposed to slavery.

Lincoln's emancipation proclamation was more important
for preventing British interference
than his threats of war against Britain,
because it strengthened the moral issue.

Jan

[Julian]

Weird.

This post arrived on ARBN indicating I was
the poster. The title is mine but the
content and the senders address are not.

I've never, in 23 years on Usenet, seen
anything like this happen before.

[Julian]

I can't cancel the post which indicates
it wasn't associated with my email address.

Am I missing something even more than usual?

[Julian]

Not Quite. There are about 30 living Admirals.
I don't think they ever fully retire unless
suddenly and painfully to encourage the others.

There are perhaps 3 times as many ships but not
far from one each when it comes to the best toys.

[J. J. Lodder]

Don't know, can't help you.
All I can see is that my posting is on my server,
complete with all the correct headers.
Perhaps Eternal September is mixed up again?

Jan

[Julian]

ES has been my server for a decade or more
but I've never seen this happen before.

Thanks, anyway.

[Madhu]

Unseen forces are messing with you.

It is a glitch in moztarella^Weternal-september's software.

The headers which gnus shows for article numner 57169 on arbn is

[57169 "On NoIQ and his Medieval Japanese Peasant Mindset" "Julian <julia...@gmail.com>" "Mon, 12 Aug 2019 08:45:14 +0100" "<qir5eb$6r7$1...@dont-email.me>" "<qip7jr$saf$4...@dont-email.me> <b71bc780-f942-4cdf...@googlegroups.com> <qipcep$lg3$9...@dont-email.me> <9a0281be-8bca-4f5e...@googlegroups.com> <qir29o$o3i$1...@dont-email.me>" 2013 17 "reader01.eternal-september.org alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren:57169" nil]

and telnet news.eternal-september.org 119
AUTHINFO...
MODE READER
200 eternal-september.org InterNetNews NNRP server INN 2.7.0 (20190513 snapshot) ready (posting ok)
GROUP alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
211 31309 19672 57172 alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
ARTICLE 57169
220 57169 <1oc6syl.1e9...@de-ster.xs4all.nl> article

retrieves JJLodder's article.

[1027824 "Re: Meaning of the word Oakey?" "nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)" "Mon, 12 Aug 2019 09:54:31 +0200" "<1oc6syl.1e9...@de-ster.xs4all.nl>" "<ap7uhs$3ie$1...@news.loxinfo.co.th> <23390c92-7754-456b...@googlegroups.com> <5e1mke17ddna7gkph...@4ax.com> <p9Gdnff3mqYhqdbA...@brightview.co.uk> <gr2d4i...@mid.individual.net> <vt1oke11hqq6a25sj...@4ax.com> <gr2h41...@mid.individual.net> <d03ea419-c882-4e8e...@googlegroups.com> <OoqdnWzy3fW2M9HA...@brightview.co.uk> <NECebmbR...@wolff.co.uk> <UMKdnQqqK6hiftDA...@brightview.co.uk> <1oc36xh.b0q...@de-ster.xs4all.nl> <RMydnXac_vb9ZtPA...@brightview.co.uk> <1oc3y43.130...@de-ster.xs4all.nl> <b6c8629f-fb7f-4f0b...@googlegroups.com> <hKWdnfmvAfQX_s3A...@brightview.co.uk> <1oc5yww.1k...@de-ster.xs4all.nl> <qipvp6$s7a$1...@news.albasani.net>" 3127 41 "reader01.eternal-september.org alt.usage.english:1027824" nil]

[Julian]

On 12/08/2019 11:11, Madhu wrote:
>
> Unseen forces are messing with you.

Tell me about it.

>
> It is a glitch in moztarella^Weternal-september's software.

Thanks for that. I feel I've pursued it enough
and instead will concentrate on my serendipitous
advent here on AUE.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 07:54:31 GMT, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
wrote:

Any Sharks involved?



--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

A hollow voice says "Welcome", or maybe "Plugh"

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 09:48:15 +0100, Julian <julia...@gmail.com>
wrote:

UK military (Army Navy and Air force) officers other than junior ones,
can keep their rank after retirement and use the title if they wish.

This matches my experience:
https://www.quora.com/Do-British-army-officers-and-NCOs-keep-their-rank-title-after-they-leave

Do British army officers and NCOs keep their rank title after they
leave?

Graham Moore, British and also a Citizen of the World.
Updated Jun 27, 2018 · Upvoted by Darren Talbot, former Army Officer
at British Army (1991-2001) and Joe Francis, Sergeant in Marine
Corps, Officer in US Army, 26 years service

It is a custom in the UK that officers who left as a Major or higher
(or equivalent for the other Services), can use the rank in civilian
life, but there are rules:

* conversationally they may be addressed as Major, Colonel,
Brigadier, General, etc - if they make it clear that this is how
they wish to be addressed - this is very ‘old school’ and very few
ex-officers do this nowadays.
* in writing, the fact that the officer has retired must be made
clear - ie Major (Ret’d) John Smith. Again, use of former rank in
this way is very ‘old school.’
* Non-commissioned veterans cannot use their serving rank in
civilian life in this way.

Almost no ex-officer retires from the world of work, ie gives up
work and becomes a pensioner, pottering about in the garden or
playing golf. They almost all move into a second career, where it
would be very odd to adopt this custom in the new work-place.

Back in the 1960s I was working for a computer manufacturing company in
Manchester, England. One of the managers was a retired RAF officer who
used his rank title of Wing-Commander. My impression as that he used
that title to distinguish himself from the rest of us, but definitely
not in a boastful way. He had years of administrative and organisational
experience. He apparently used the title to indicate that he was a
manager but not a computer expert.

>There are perhaps 3 times as many ships but not
>far from one each when it comes to the best toys.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Peter T. Daniels]

It is a factoid, a digression. Nothing to do with goalposts.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Yes. What is ARBN?

[J. J. Lodder]

Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren

You -can- google that for yourself,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

The already mentioned Mr Google also comes up
with people who say that ARBN is one of the nastiest newsgroups around.

"This newsgroup has the wierd distinction of attracting some of the most
rude, obnoxious and unpleasant folk I've ever encountered," [sic]

Crossposting may not be a good idea,

Jan

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 11:35:21 +0100, Julian <julia...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Welcome to AUE.

[J. J. Lodder]

Peter Duncanson [BrE] <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 09:48:15 +0100, Julian <julia...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On 09/08/2019 21:32, J. J. Lodder wrote:

[snip]

'Captain' also qualified in the past, as in Captain Hastings.
Or is Ms Christie unaware of the rules? Or have the rules changed?

Jan

[Julian]

Thank you.

[Julian]

A newsgroup... Alt.religion.buddhism.Nichiren

[Julian]

Or Duck-Duck-Go if you rather no one know
of your dubious interests.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

That article refers to it as a "custom". The "rules" are part of the
custom. I'm not sure that there are any legally-binding rules.

It is possible that the custom was different in Christie's time.