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How to pronounce pkwo’-o-lo’ ‘ue-merkw
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David Kleinecke
May 14, 2022, 1:20:06 AM5/14/22
to
We want to change the name of Squaw Tit Mountain to pkwo’-o-lo’ ‘ue-merkw
(Yurok for maple). This is something that will terrify the average English speaker. I am unsure how to say it (I have neglected my Yurok phonology). I
imagine "pkw" is a labialized co-articulated stop and "'" is a glottal stop. But two glottal stops? I imagine people will say something like "polowemerk"
(Yurok for maple). This is something that will terrify the average English speaker. I am unsure how to say it (I have neglected my Yurok phonology). I
imagine "pkw" is a labialized co-articulated stop and "'" is a glottal stop. But two glottal stops? I imagine people will say something like "polowemerk"
Ruud Harmsen
May 14, 2022, 3:32:34 AM5/14/22
to
Fri, 13 May 2022 22:20:04 -0700 (PDT): David Kleinecke
<dklei...@gmail.com> scribeva:
‘u might be a glottalized w, possibly realised as creaky voice on the
preceding vowel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yurok_language#Consonants
<dklei...@gmail.com> scribeva:
preceding vowel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yurok_language#Consonants
Peter T. Daniels
May 14, 2022, 9:52:14 AM5/14/22
to
According to Bright's dictionary, there are places called Squaw Teat
in four states and Squaw Tit in five.
Are you agitating to change "Grand Tetons" as well?
bil...@shaw.ca
May 15, 2022, 5:38:25 PM5/15/22
to
after which the Lions Gate Bridge was named -- were once called Sheba's Tits.
That name is now rarely heard in conversation, and is probably close to disappearing
from local conversational English. A minimum of research indicates it originated
shortly before or after the turn of the 20th century. The Lions Gate Bridge was
built in the 1930s and "The Lions" soon became the normal name of those peaks.
bill
Ross Clark
May 15, 2022, 8:01:34 PM5/15/22
to
1969) give "The Sisters" and "Sheba's Paps" as earlier names. They
credit one "Judge Gray", ca.1890, with suggesting "The Lions" and also
"The Lion's Gate" [should be Lions'?] for First Narrows.
But who was Sheba? A local celebrity? or the Queen of Biblical renown?
bil...@shaw.ca
May 15, 2022, 9:16:49 PM5/15/22
to
about 1850, when there were only a few hundred non-indigenous people
in what is now B.C. What little there was made no mention of Sheba except
as the legendary African queen.
bill
Madhu
May 16, 2022, 12:00:27 AM5/16/22
to
* BVan <1fa8c519-c0af-4037...@googlegroups.com> :
Wrote on Sun, 15 May 2022 18:16:47 -0700 (PDT):
> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 5:01:34 PM UTC-7, RC
>> On 16/05/2022 9:38 a.m., BV
>> > The two little mountain peaks on Vancouver's North Shore known as
>> > "The Lions" -- after which the Lions Gate Bridge was named -- were
>> > once called Sheba's Tits. That name is now rarely heard in
>> > conversation, and is probably close to disappearing from local
>> > conversational English. A minimum of research indicates it
>> > originated shortly before or after the turn of the 20th
>> > century. The Lions Gate Bridge was built in the 1930s and "The
>> > Lions" soon became the normal name of those peaks.
>> > "The Lions" -- after which the Lions Gate Bridge was named -- were
>> > once called Sheba's Tits. That name is now rarely heard in
>> > conversation, and is probably close to disappearing from local
>> > conversational English. A minimum of research indicates it
>> > originated shortly before or after the turn of the 20th
>> > century. The Lions Gate Bridge was built in the 1930s and "The
>> > Lions" soon became the normal name of those peaks.
>> Akrigg & Akrigg, _1001 British Columbia Place Names_ (Discovery
>> Press, 1969) give "The Sisters" and "Sheba's Paps" as earlier
>> names. They credit one "Judge Gray", ca.1890, with suggesting "The
>> Lions" and also "The Lion's Gate" [should be Lions'?] for First
>> Narrows.
>>
>> But who was Sheba? A local celebrity? or the Queen of Biblical
>> renown?
"The half was not told me." (1Ki.10:7)
>> Press, 1969) give "The Sisters" and "Sheba's Paps" as earlier
>> names. They credit one "Judge Gray", ca.1890, with suggesting "The
>> Lions" and also "The Lion's Gate" [should be Lions'?] for First
>> Narrows.
>>
>> But who was Sheba? A local celebrity? or the Queen of Biblical
>> renown?
Athel Cornish-Bowden
May 16, 2022, 2:28:41 AM5/16/22
to
On 2022-05-15 21:38:23 +0000, bil...@shaw.ca said:
> On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 6:52:14 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 1:20:06 AM UTC-4, dklei...@gmail.com
>> wrote:>> > We want to change the name of Squaw Tit Mountain to
>> pkwo’-o-lo’ ‘ue-merkw> > (Yurok for maple). This is something that will
>> terrify the average English speaker. I am unsure how to say it (I have
>> neglected my Yurok phonology). I> > imagine "pkw" is a labialized
>> co-articulated stop and "'" is a glottal stop. But two glottal stops? I
>> imagine people will say something like "polowemerk"
>> I don't suppose Yurok Maple Mountain would do.>> According to Bright's
>> dictionary, there are places called Squaw Teat> in four states and
>> Squaw Tit in five.>> Are you agitating to change "Grand Tetons" as well?
>
> The two little mountain peaks on Vancouver's North Shore known as "The
> Lions" --
> after which the Lions Gate Bridge was named -- were once called Sheba's Tits.
> That name is now rarely heard in conversation, and is probably close to
> disappearing
> from local conversational English. A minimum of research indicates it
> originatedshortly before or after the turn of the 20th century. The
> On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 6:52:14 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 1:20:06 AM UTC-4, dklei...@gmail.com
>> wrote:>> > We want to change the name of Squaw Tit Mountain to
>> pkwo’-o-lo’ ‘ue-merkw> > (Yurok for maple). This is something that will
>> terrify the average English speaker. I am unsure how to say it (I have
>> neglected my Yurok phonology). I> > imagine "pkw" is a labialized
>> co-articulated stop and "'" is a glottal stop. But two glottal stops? I
>> imagine people will say something like "polowemerk"
>> I don't suppose Yurok Maple Mountain would do.>> According to Bright's
>> dictionary, there are places called Squaw Teat> in four states and
>> Squaw Tit in five.>> Are you agitating to change "Grand Tetons" as well?
>
> The two little mountain peaks on Vancouver's North Shore known as "The
> Lions" --
> after which the Lions Gate Bridge was named -- were once called Sheba's Tits.
> That name is now rarely heard in conversation, and is probably close to
> disappearing
> from local conversational English. A minimum of research indicates it
> Lions Gate Bridge was
> built in the 1930s and "The Lions" soon became the normal name of those peaks.
The Twin Peaks in San Francisco were called "Los Pechos de la Chola"
> built in the 1930s and "The Lions" soon became the normal name of those peaks.
before acquiring their present name.
--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.
David Kleinecke
May 16, 2022, 5:35:29 PM5/16/22
to
have islands called Cannibal Island and Cock Robin Island. As nearly as I
can tell neither name is connected to any explanation.
In Santa Barbara there is an Indio Muerto Street which has no explanation
in most literature but I know why. The streets in the east end of Santa
Barbara are named after the stopping places of the Portola Expedition of
1780 as they were known to the Barbaren~os of 1850 when the streets
were named. This raises, I belief, a minor mystery because I believe there
were no printed accounts of Portola until after 1850. Did the Spanish (and
later Mexican) community retain an accurate oral account all those seventy
years? In any case at the correct place in the list of stopping places we find
the expedition camping near a big native town where an important funeral
was being celebrated.
Peter Moylan
May 16, 2022, 9:12:49 PM5/16/22
to
On 17/05/22 07:35, David Kleinecke wrote:
> The Humbldt Bay area was also settled after 1850. In the Eel River delta we
> have islands called Cannibal Island and Cock Robin Island. As nearly as I
> can tell neither name is connected to any explanation.
There's an Intercourse Island off the coast of Western Australia. (It's
> The Humbldt Bay area was also settled after 1850. In the Eel River delta we
> have islands called Cannibal Island and Cock Robin Island. As nearly as I
> can tell neither name is connected to any explanation.
part of a group of islands; there's also a West Intercourse Island, an
East Intercourse Island, and a few others.) The official story is that
it was named when an explorer had an intercourse (i.e. a conversation)
with the local aboriginal people.
A more popular explanation is that a sailor once asked "Where are we?"
and another replied "West Fuck".
I believe that at one stage the name was changed to Innercourse Island,
but I can no longer find any evidence of this on the web.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Tony Cooper
May 16, 2022, 10:08:33 PM5/16/22
to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercourse,_Pennsylvania
In my home state of Indiana, there's a city by the name of French
Lick. Often, when it's mentioned, someone will say "It's not as much
fun as it sounds."
It gets mentioned quite a bit since a famous basketball player - Larry
Bird - is from French Lick. Well, actually, from West Baden Springs,
but that's a nearby even-smaller town and Larry went to high school in
French Lick.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida
I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.
Peter T. Daniels
May 17, 2022, 10:17:31 AM5/17/22
to
records of the expeditions -- like the "Jesuit Relations" of French Canada,
which are invaluable for 17th-century Native ethnography; and of the
Conquistadores in Mexico in the 16th. Such reports would have been
sent to Rome, and maybe they began to be read in the mid 19th century.
Jesuits, Franciscans, Dominicans? Who were the main missionary orders
in California, who marked the calendar with the saints' names they
bestowed on the land?
Jerry Friedman
May 17, 2022, 11:02:47 AM5/17/22
to
This reminds me of a story my mother told me from when she was teaching at a home for unwed mothers. One girl was reading about India in a social studies textbook and came across the name of the military "social order", Kshatriya. She thought that would be a good name for a baby girl. "How do you pronounce that, Ms. Friedman? Kish... Ksh..."
I'd go farther than PTD and suggest "Maple Mountain", though "Polowemerk Mountain" might be a possibility. Maybe you could find a Yurok speaker and get them to start a game of telephone (=Chinese whispers) with their word, in order to mimic the changes the word would go through in anglicization. (Wikipedia says that in 2013, there were no native speakers left, but there were some 400 people who had studied the language, including 17 who were conversationally fluent.)
Have Yurok people made suggestions about the name of the mountain?
--
Jerry Friedman
CDB
May 17, 2022, 12:31:48 PM5/17/22
to
Welcome back. I hope all went swimmingly, except for the part on a river.
Jerry Friedman
May 17, 2022, 4:46:18 PM5/17/22
to
> Welcome back. I hope all went swimmingly, except for the part on a river.
--
Jerry Friedman
bil...@shaw.ca
May 18, 2022, 3:46:08 AM5/18/22
to
Peter T. Daniels
May 18, 2022, 9:07:56 AM5/18/22
to
300,000,000 Americans would be unwise.
(Are they interested in tourist dollars? Does CA have "Indian casinos"?)
Jerry Friedman
May 18, 2022, 11:47:40 AM5/18/22
to
On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 1:46:08 AM UTC-6, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 8:02:47 AM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 11:20:06 PM UTC-6, dklei...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > We want to change the name of Squaw Tit Mountain to pkwo’-o-lo’ ‘ue-merkw
> > > (Yurok for maple). This is something that will terrify the average English speaker. I am unsure how to say it (I have neglected my Yurok phonology). I
> > > imagine "pkw" is a labialized co-articulated stop and "'" is a glottal stop. But two glottal stops? I imagine people will say something like "polowemerk"
...
> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 8:02:47 AM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 11:20:06 PM UTC-6, dklei...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > We want to change the name of Squaw Tit Mountain to pkwo’-o-lo’ ‘ue-merkw
> > > (Yurok for maple). This is something that will terrify the average English speaker. I am unsure how to say it (I have neglected my Yurok phonology). I
> > > imagine "pkw" is a labialized co-articulated stop and "'" is a glottal stop. But two glottal stops? I imagine people will say something like "polowemerk"
> > I'd go farther than PTD and suggest "Maple Mountain", though "Polowemerk Mountain" might be a possibility. Maybe you could find a Yurok speaker and get them to start a game of telephone (=Chinese whispers) with their word, in order to mimic the changes the word would go through in anglicization. (Wikipedia says that in 2013, there were no native speakers left, but there were some 400 people who had studied the language, including 17 who were conversationally fluent.)
> >
> > Have Yurok people made suggestions about the name of the mountain?
> >
> https://krcrtv.com/north-coast-news/eureka-local-news/yurok-tribe-calls-for-changing-offensive-mountain-peak-name
However, that page didn't load for me. Here's another one
https://lostcoastoutpost.com/2022/may/13/yurok-tribe-petitions-federal-government-change-lo/
which includes a sound file. The pronunciation is not, in my opinion, anything
like what the spelling suggests, and will be very difficult for about 99% of non-
Yuroks.
That article also mentions broad local support (David's "we") and support from
the state of California, so the change seems likely to happen. Personally, I think
a suggested alternate name, Maple Peak, would be a nice addition.
--
Jerry Friedman
Quinn C
May 18, 2022, 12:33:50 PM5/18/22
to
* Jerry Friedman:
> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 1:46:08 AM UTC-6, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 8:02:47 AM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 11:20:06 PM UTC-6, dklei...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> > We want to change the name of Squaw Tit Mountain to pkwo’-o-lo’ ‘ue-merkw
>>> > (Yurok for maple). This is something that will terrify the average English speaker. I am unsure how to say it (I have neglected my Yurok phonology). I
>>> > imagine "pkw" is a labialized co-articulated stop and "'" is a glottal stop. But two glottal stops? I imagine people will say something like "polowemerk"
> ...
>
>>> I'd go farther than PTD and suggest "Maple Mountain", though "Polowemerk Mountain" might be a possibility. Maybe you could find a Yurok speaker and get them to start a game of telephone (=Chinese whispers) with their word, in order to mimic the changes the word would go through in anglicization. (Wikipedia says that in 2013, there were no native speakers left, but there were some 400 people who had studied the language, including 17 who were conversationally fluent.)
>>>
>>> Have Yurok people made suggestions about the name of the mountain?
>>>
>> https://krcrtv.com/north-coast-news/eureka-local-news/yurok-tribe-calls-for-changing-offensive-mountain-peak-name
>
> You mean there's an Internet where I can find answers to such questions?
> However, that page didn't load for me. Here's another one
>
> https://lostcoastoutpost.com/2022/may/13/yurok-tribe-petitions-federal-government-change-lo/
>
> which includes a sound file. The pronunciation is not, in my opinion, anything
> like what the spelling suggests,
I find it remarkably close to what I'd make of the spelling without
further instruction.
> and will be very difficult for about 99% of non-
> Yuroks.
>
> That article also mentions broad local support (David's "we") and support from
> the state of California, so the change seems likely to happen. Personally, I think
> a suggested alternate name, Maple Peak, would be a nice addition.
Having names in two languages for a geographic feature is not at all
unusual, globally speaking, so yes.
--
- What you're proposing is suicide!
- If you have nothing positive to say, Mila ...
- All right, I'll prepare some food. Nobody should die on an empty
stomach. -- ST DS9, S07E25
> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 1:46:08 AM UTC-6, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 8:02:47 AM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 11:20:06 PM UTC-6, dklei...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> > We want to change the name of Squaw Tit Mountain to pkwo’-o-lo’ ‘ue-merkw
>>> > (Yurok for maple). This is something that will terrify the average English speaker. I am unsure how to say it (I have neglected my Yurok phonology). I
>>> > imagine "pkw" is a labialized co-articulated stop and "'" is a glottal stop. But two glottal stops? I imagine people will say something like "polowemerk"
> ...
>
>>> I'd go farther than PTD and suggest "Maple Mountain", though "Polowemerk Mountain" might be a possibility. Maybe you could find a Yurok speaker and get them to start a game of telephone (=Chinese whispers) with their word, in order to mimic the changes the word would go through in anglicization. (Wikipedia says that in 2013, there were no native speakers left, but there were some 400 people who had studied the language, including 17 who were conversationally fluent.)
>>>
>>> Have Yurok people made suggestions about the name of the mountain?
>>>
>> https://krcrtv.com/north-coast-news/eureka-local-news/yurok-tribe-calls-for-changing-offensive-mountain-peak-name
>
> You mean there's an Internet where I can find answers to such questions?
> However, that page didn't load for me. Here's another one
>
> https://lostcoastoutpost.com/2022/may/13/yurok-tribe-petitions-federal-government-change-lo/
>
> which includes a sound file. The pronunciation is not, in my opinion, anything
> like what the spelling suggests,
further instruction.
> and will be very difficult for about 99% of non-
> Yuroks.
>
> That article also mentions broad local support (David's "we") and support from
> the state of California, so the change seems likely to happen. Personally, I think
> a suggested alternate name, Maple Peak, would be a nice addition.
unusual, globally speaking, so yes.
--
- What you're proposing is suicide!
- If you have nothing positive to say, Mila ...
- All right, I'll prepare some food. Nobody should die on an empty
stomach. -- ST DS9, S07E25
lar3ryca
May 18, 2022, 2:54:11 PM5/18/22
to
On 2022-05-18 09:47, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 1:46:08 AM UTC-6, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 8:02:47 AM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 11:20:06 PM UTC-6, dklei...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> We want to change the name of Squaw Tit Mountain to pkwo’-o-lo’ ‘ue-merkw
>>>> (Yurok for maple). This is something that will terrify the average English speaker. I am unsure how to say it (I have neglected my Yurok phonology). I
>>>> imagine "pkw" is a labialized co-articulated stop and "'" is a glottal stop. But two glottal stops? I imagine people will say something like "polowemerk"
> ...
>
>>> I'd go farther than PTD and suggest "Maple Mountain", though "Polowemerk Mountain" might be a possibility. Maybe you could find a Yurok speaker and get them to start a game of telephone (=Chinese whispers) with their word, in order to mimic the changes the word would go through in anglicization. (Wikipedia says that in 2013, there were no native speakers left, but there were some 400 people who had studied the language, including 17 who were conversationally fluent.)
>>>
>>> Have Yurok people made suggestions about the name of the mountain?
>>>
>> https://krcrtv.com/north-coast-news/eureka-local-news/yurok-tribe-calls-for-changing-offensive-mountain-peak-name
>
> You mean there's an Internet where I can find answers to such questions?
> However, that page didn't load for me. Here's another one
>
> https://lostcoastoutpost.com/2022/may/13/yurok-tribe-petitions-federal-government-change-lo/
That's hilarious! They've censored the word 'Squaw' and left 'Tit' as is.
> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 1:46:08 AM UTC-6, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 8:02:47 AM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 11:20:06 PM UTC-6, dklei...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> We want to change the name of Squaw Tit Mountain to pkwo’-o-lo’ ‘ue-merkw
>>>> (Yurok for maple). This is something that will terrify the average English speaker. I am unsure how to say it (I have neglected my Yurok phonology). I
>>>> imagine "pkw" is a labialized co-articulated stop and "'" is a glottal stop. But two glottal stops? I imagine people will say something like "polowemerk"
> ...
>
>>> I'd go farther than PTD and suggest "Maple Mountain", though "Polowemerk Mountain" might be a possibility. Maybe you could find a Yurok speaker and get them to start a game of telephone (=Chinese whispers) with their word, in order to mimic the changes the word would go through in anglicization. (Wikipedia says that in 2013, there were no native speakers left, but there were some 400 people who had studied the language, including 17 who were conversationally fluent.)
>>>
>>> Have Yurok people made suggestions about the name of the mountain?
>>>
>> https://krcrtv.com/north-coast-news/eureka-local-news/yurok-tribe-calls-for-changing-offensive-mountain-peak-name
>
> You mean there's an Internet where I can find answers to such questions?
> However, that page didn't load for me. Here's another one
>
> https://lostcoastoutpost.com/2022/may/13/yurok-tribe-petitions-federal-government-change-lo/
> which includes a sound file. The pronunciation is not, in my opinion, anything
> like what the spelling suggests, and will be very difficult for about 99% of non-
> Yuroks.
Peter T. Daniels
May 18, 2022, 4:01:25 PM5/18/22
to
On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 2:54:11 PM UTC-4, lar3ryca wrote:
> On 2022-05-18 09:47, Jerry Friedman wrote:
[Squaw Tit objectionable in part]
> On 2022-05-18 09:47, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > https://lostcoastoutpost.com/2022/may/13/yurok-tribe-petitions-federal-government-change-lo/
>
> That's hilarious! They've censored the word 'Squaw' and left 'Tit' as is.
? What's wrong with "tit"? It's the usual dairy farmer's word for udder
>
> That's hilarious! They've censored the word 'Squaw' and left 'Tit' as is.
(usually spelled teat, but pronounced tit), and regularly occurs in
crossword puzzles to name a small bird.
The hilarity is rich from someone who broadcast the 1950s(?) gay
slang term "tube steak" for 'penis'.
If lar3 doesn't understand the problem with "squaw," let everyone
address him as "hoser." (We were recently told here that "canuck"
is no longer offensive.)
Jerry Friedman
May 18, 2022, 6:24:40 PM5/18/22
to
On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 10:33:50 AM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
> * Jerry Friedman:
> > On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 1:46:08 AM UTC-6, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 8:02:47 AM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 11:20:06 PM UTC-6, dklei...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> > We want to change the name of Squaw Tit Mountain to pkwo’-o-lo’ ‘ue-merkw
> >>> > (Yurok for maple). This is something that will terrify the average English speaker. I am unsure how to say it (I have neglected my Yurok phonology). I
> >>> > imagine "pkw" is a labialized co-articulated stop and "'" is a glottal stop. But two glottal stops? I imagine people will say something like "polowemerk"
> > ...
> >
> >>> I'd go farther than PTD and suggest "Maple Mountain", though "Polowemerk Mountain" might be a possibility. Maybe you could find a Yurok speaker and get them to start a game of telephone (=Chinese whispers) with their word, in order to mimic the changes the word would go through in anglicization. (Wikipedia says that in 2013, there were no native speakers left, but there were some 400 people who had studied the language, including 17 who were conversationally fluent.)
> >>>
> >>> Have Yurok people made suggestions about the name of the mountain?
> >>>
> >> https://krcrtv.com/north-coast-news/eureka-local-news/yurok-tribe-calls-for-changing-offensive-mountain-peak-name
> >
> > You mean there's an Internet where I can find answers to such questions?
> > However, that page didn't load for me. Here's another one
> >
> > https://lostcoastoutpost.com/2022/may/13/yurok-tribe-petitions-federal-government-change-lo/
> >
> > which includes a sound file. The pronunciation is not, in my opinion, anything
> > like what the spelling suggests,
> I find it remarkably close to what I'd make of the spelling without
> further instruction.
Huh. I can't hear the e in `ue or the final kw, and the e in "merkw" sound like /a/
> * Jerry Friedman:
> > On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 1:46:08 AM UTC-6, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 8:02:47 AM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 11:20:06 PM UTC-6, dklei...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> > We want to change the name of Squaw Tit Mountain to pkwo’-o-lo’ ‘ue-merkw
> >>> > (Yurok for maple). This is something that will terrify the average English speaker. I am unsure how to say it (I have neglected my Yurok phonology). I
> >>> > imagine "pkw" is a labialized co-articulated stop and "'" is a glottal stop. But two glottal stops? I imagine people will say something like "polowemerk"
> > ...
> >
> >>> I'd go farther than PTD and suggest "Maple Mountain", though "Polowemerk Mountain" might be a possibility. Maybe you could find a Yurok speaker and get them to start a game of telephone (=Chinese whispers) with their word, in order to mimic the changes the word would go through in anglicization. (Wikipedia says that in 2013, there were no native speakers left, but there were some 400 people who had studied the language, including 17 who were conversationally fluent.)
> >>>
> >>> Have Yurok people made suggestions about the name of the mountain?
> >>>
> >> https://krcrtv.com/north-coast-news/eureka-local-news/yurok-tribe-calls-for-changing-offensive-mountain-peak-name
> >
> > You mean there's an Internet where I can find answers to such questions?
> > However, that page didn't load for me. Here's another one
> >
> > https://lostcoastoutpost.com/2022/may/13/yurok-tribe-petitions-federal-government-change-lo/
> >
> > which includes a sound file. The pronunciation is not, in my opinion, anything
> > like what the spelling suggests,
> I find it remarkably close to what I'd make of the spelling without
> further instruction.
to me. I shouldn't have said "not anything like", though.
> > and will be very difficult for about 99% of non-
> > Yuroks.
> >
> > That article also mentions broad local support (David's "we") and support from
> > the state of California, so the change seems likely to happen. Personally, I think
> > a suggested alternate name, Maple Peak, would be a nice addition.
> Having names in two languages for a geographic feature is not at all
> unusual, globally speaking, so yes.
"*Principle V. One Name for One Geographic Feature*
"The BGN [Board on Geographic Names] identifies one name, spelling, and application
as official for a geographic feature in the United States, and its territories and outlying
areas."
The BGN does record variant names, though.
--
Jerry Friedman
CDB
May 19, 2022, 6:50:57 AM5/19/22
to
On 5/18/2022 4:01 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
to be a lot of confusion about these terms: I remember a neighbour who
used to use "tubes" to mean "tits" (while scanning _Playboy_, for
instance: "lookit the tubes on this one").
> lar3ryca wrote:
>> Jerry Friedman wrote:
> [Squaw Tit objectionable in part]
>>> https://lostcoastoutpost.com/2022/may/13/yurok-tribe-petitions-federal-government-change-lo/
>>
>>>
>>>
That's hilarious! They've censored the word 'Squaw' and left 'Tit' as is.
> ? What's wrong with "tit"? It's the usual dairy farmer's word for
> udder (usually spelled teat, but pronounced tit), and regularly
> occurs in crossword puzzles to name a small bird.
> The hilarity is rich from someone who broadcast the 1950s(?) gay
> slang term "tube steak" for 'penis'.
> If lar3 doesn't understand the problem with "squaw," let everyone
> address him as "hoser." (We were recently told here that "canuck" is
> no longer offensive.)
"Hoser" isn't particularly unfriendly - more jocular, like. There seems
>> Jerry Friedman wrote:
> [Squaw Tit objectionable in part]
>>> https://lostcoastoutpost.com/2022/may/13/yurok-tribe-petitions-federal-government-change-lo/
>>
>>>
>>>
That's hilarious! They've censored the word 'Squaw' and left 'Tit' as is.
> ? What's wrong with "tit"? It's the usual dairy farmer's word for
> udder (usually spelled teat, but pronounced tit), and regularly
> occurs in crossword puzzles to name a small bird.
> The hilarity is rich from someone who broadcast the 1950s(?) gay
> slang term "tube steak" for 'penis'.
> If lar3 doesn't understand the problem with "squaw," let everyone
> address him as "hoser." (We were recently told here that "canuck" is
> no longer offensive.)
to be a lot of confusion about these terms: I remember a neighbour who
used to use "tubes" to mean "tits" (while scanning _Playboy_, for
instance: "lookit the tubes on this one").
Quinn C
May 19, 2022, 9:50:04 AM5/19/22
to
* Jerry Friedman:
> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 10:33:50 AM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Jerry Friedman:
>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 1:46:08 AM UTC-6, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 8:02:47 AM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 11:20:06 PM UTC-6, dklei...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> > We want to change the name of Squaw Tit Mountain to pkwo’-o-lo’ ‘ue-merkw
>>>>> > (Yurok for maple). This is something that will terrify the average English speaker. I am unsure how to say it (I have neglected my Yurok phonology). I
>>>>> > imagine "pkw" is a labialized co-articulated stop and "'" is a glottal stop. But two glottal stops? I imagine people will say something like "polowemerk"
>>> ...
>>>
>>>>> I'd go farther than PTD and suggest "Maple Mountain", though "Polowemerk Mountain" might be a possibility. Maybe you could find a Yurok speaker and get them to start a game of telephone (=Chinese whispers) with their word, in order to mimic the changes the word would go through in anglicization. (Wikipedia says that in 2013, there were no native speakers left, but there were some 400 people who had studied the language, including 17 who were conversationally fluent.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Have Yurok people made suggestions about the name of the mountain?
>>>>>
>>>> https://krcrtv.com/north-coast-news/eureka-local-news/yurok-tribe-calls-for-changing-offensive-mountain-peak-name
>>>
>>> You mean there's an Internet where I can find answers to such questions?
>>> However, that page didn't load for me. Here's another one
>>>
>>> https://lostcoastoutpost.com/2022/may/13/yurok-tribe-petitions-federal-government-change-lo/
>>>
>>> which includes a sound file. The pronunciation is not, in my opinion, anything
>>> like what the spelling suggests,
>
>> I find it remarkably close to what I'd make of the spelling without
>> further instruction.
>
> Huh. I can't hear the e in `ue
Agreed.
> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 10:33:50 AM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Jerry Friedman:
>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 1:46:08 AM UTC-6, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 8:02:47 AM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 11:20:06 PM UTC-6, dklei...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> > We want to change the name of Squaw Tit Mountain to pkwo’-o-lo’ ‘ue-merkw
>>>>> > (Yurok for maple). This is something that will terrify the average English speaker. I am unsure how to say it (I have neglected my Yurok phonology). I
>>>>> > imagine "pkw" is a labialized co-articulated stop and "'" is a glottal stop. But two glottal stops? I imagine people will say something like "polowemerk"
>>> ...
>>>
>>>>> I'd go farther than PTD and suggest "Maple Mountain", though "Polowemerk Mountain" might be a possibility. Maybe you could find a Yurok speaker and get them to start a game of telephone (=Chinese whispers) with their word, in order to mimic the changes the word would go through in anglicization. (Wikipedia says that in 2013, there were no native speakers left, but there were some 400 people who had studied the language, including 17 who were conversationally fluent.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Have Yurok people made suggestions about the name of the mountain?
>>>>>
>>>> https://krcrtv.com/north-coast-news/eureka-local-news/yurok-tribe-calls-for-changing-offensive-mountain-peak-name
>>>
>>> You mean there's an Internet where I can find answers to such questions?
>>> However, that page didn't load for me. Here's another one
>>>
>>> https://lostcoastoutpost.com/2022/may/13/yurok-tribe-petitions-federal-government-change-lo/
>>>
>>> which includes a sound file. The pronunciation is not, in my opinion, anything
>>> like what the spelling suggests,
>
>> I find it remarkably close to what I'd make of the spelling without
>> further instruction.
>
> Huh. I can't hear the e in `ue
> or the final kw,
I perceived something after the k, but not something I could classify or
would seem important to a speaker of German or English. That's the
problem. But there seemed to be fewer issues of that kind than I
expected.
> and the e in "merkw" sound like /a/
> to me.
> I shouldn't have said "not anything like", though.
I'm a character actor - which they call actors who are not gorgeous,
or young.
-- Saul Rubinek
Peter T. Daniels
May 19, 2022, 11:00:57 AM5/19/22
to
On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 9:50:04 AM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Jerry Friedman:
> > On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 10:33:50 AM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
> >> * Jerry Friedman:
> * Jerry Friedman:
> > On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 10:33:50 AM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
> >> * Jerry Friedman:
> >>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 8:02:47 AM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 11:20:06 PM UTC-6, dklei...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> > We want to change the name of Squaw Tit Mountain to pkwo’-o-lo’ ‘ue-merkw
> >>>>> > (Yurok for maple). This is something that will terrify the average English speaker. I am unsure how to say it (I have neglected my Yurok phonology). I
> >>>>> > imagine "pkw" is a labialized co-articulated stop and "'" is a glottal stop. But two glottal stops? I imagine people will say something like "polowemerk"
> >>>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 11:20:06 PM UTC-6, dklei...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> > We want to change the name of Squaw Tit Mountain to pkwo’-o-lo’ ‘ue-merkw
> >>>>> > (Yurok for maple). This is something that will terrify the average English speaker. I am unsure how to say it (I have neglected my Yurok phonology). I
> >>>>> > imagine "pkw" is a labialized co-articulated stop and "'" is a glottal stop. But two glottal stops? I imagine people will say something like "polowemerk"
> >>> https://lostcoastoutpost.com/2022/may/13/yurok-tribe-petitions-federal-government-change-lo/
> >>> which includes a sound file. The pronunciation is not, in my opinion, anything
> >>> like what the spelling suggests,
> >> I find it remarkably close to what I'd make of the spelling without
> >> further instruction.
> > Huh. I can't hear the e in `ue
>
> Agreed.
>
> > or the final kw,
>
> I perceived something after the k, but not something I could classify or
> would seem important to a speaker of German or English. That's the
> problem. But there seemed to be fewer issues of that kind than I
> expected.
It's not necessarily a separate sound as in Latin/English qu. It may
> >>> which includes a sound file. The pronunciation is not, in my opinion, anything
> >>> like what the spelling suggests,
> >> I find it remarkably close to what I'd make of the spelling without
> >> further instruction.
> > Huh. I can't hear the e in `ue
>
> Agreed.
>
> > or the final kw,
>
> I perceived something after the k, but not something I could classify or
> would seem important to a speaker of German or English. That's the
> problem. But there seemed to be fewer issues of that kind than I
> expected.
be indicating that the k is lip-rounded.
Jerry Friedman
May 19, 2022, 11:49:00 AM5/19/22
to
On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:54:11 PM UTC-6, lar3ryca wrote:
> On 2022-05-18 09:47, Jerry Friedman wrote:
...
> On 2022-05-18 09:47, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > https://lostcoastoutpost.com/2022/may/13/yurok-tribe-petitions-federal-government-change-lo/
> That's hilarious! They've censored the word 'Squaw' and left 'Tit' as is.
> > which includes a sound file. The pronunciation is not, in my opinion, anything
> > like what the spelling suggests, and will be very difficult for about 99% of non-
> > Yuroks.
> It's a pretty good bet that non-Yurok folks will not be calling it that.
Not to stereotype about the North Coast of California, but there might be a few
stoned ex-hippies who will give it a try.
(Stoned ex-hippies are not unknown here in northern New Mexico either.)
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
May 19, 2022, 11:50:58 AM5/19/22
to
> > and the e in "merkw" sound[s] like /a/ to me.
> That it didn't.
No, it did.
> IIRC, it sounded more or less like English "merk" to me.
--
Jerry Friedman
David Kleinecke
May 20, 2022, 1:07:43 AM5/20/22
to
overlap significantly. All the old hippies are now over seventy and got to such an
age by being careful. Careful is not a attribute of the stoned.
If you were 18 in 1970 you are 70 now. Hum. Close enough for government work.
bil...@shaw.ca
May 20, 2022, 2:11:44 AM5/20/22
to
and entered university in 1966, just in time for so many adventures.
I have known many people who were stoned as often as not, and I can report that
they were careful or not careful in roughly the same proportions as the rest
of the population. It wasn't a function of being stoned.
bill
Peter Moylan
May 20, 2022, 3:05:05 AM5/20/22
to
On 20/05/22 15:07, David Kleinecke wrote:
> We have ex-hippies and we have stoned people. But I think the
> populations don't overlap significantly. All the old hippies are now
> over seventy and got to such an age by being careful. Careful is not
> a attribute of the stoned.
A strong impression I got in San Francisco is that all the hippies had
> We have ex-hippies and we have stoned people. But I think the
> populations don't overlap significantly. All the old hippies are now
> over seventy and got to such an age by being careful. Careful is not
> a attribute of the stoned.
moved over the bridge to Marin County. The hippies had turned into yuppies.
Silvano
May 20, 2022, 3:40:10 AM5/20/22
to
Jerry Friedman hat am 19.05.2022 um 00:24 geschrieben:
geographic features (and towns and cities) normally have different names
in those languages.
> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 10:33:50 AM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
>> Having names in two languages for a geographic feature is not at all
>> unusual, globally speaking, so yes.
>
> Locally speaking, though, it's forbidden.
In the US, maybe. In countries with two or more official languages,
>> Having names in two languages for a geographic feature is not at all
>> unusual, globally speaking, so yes.
>
> Locally speaking, though, it's forbidden.
geographic features (and towns and cities) normally have different names
in those languages.
Kerr-Mudd, John
May 20, 2022, 4:16:46 AM5/20/22
to
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
May 20, 2022, 4:20:10 AM5/20/22
to
Peter Moylan
May 20, 2022, 6:20:51 AM5/20/22
to
On 20/05/22 18:20, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2022-05-20 07:40:04 +0000, Silvano said:
>
>> Jerry Friedman hat am 19.05.2022 um 00:24 geschrieben:
>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 10:33:50 AM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
>>
>>>> Having names in two languages for a geographic feature is not
>>>> at all unusual, globally speaking, so yes.
>>>
>>> Locally speaking, though, it's forbidden.
>>
>> In the US, maybe. In countries with two or more official
>> languages, geographic features (and towns and cities) normally have
>> different names in those languages.
>
> Sometimes very different, like Mons and Bergen.
In some cases, e.g. the Belgian Mechelen/Malines, the two names are
> On 2022-05-20 07:40:04 +0000, Silvano said:
>
>> Jerry Friedman hat am 19.05.2022 um 00:24 geschrieben:
>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 10:33:50 AM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
>>
>>>> Having names in two languages for a geographic feature is not
>>>> at all unusual, globally speaking, so yes.
>>>
>>> Locally speaking, though, it's forbidden.
>>
>> In the US, maybe. In countries with two or more official
>> languages, geographic features (and towns and cities) normally have
>> different names in those languages.
>
> Sometimes very different, like Mons and Bergen.
direct translations of each other.
(Actually, Mons/Bergen is one of those cases. I'd never noticed that
before.)
Commonly enough, though, the two names seem to be unrelated.
bil...@shaw.ca
May 20, 2022, 7:07:24 PM5/20/22
to
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:05:05 AM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 20/05/22 15:07, David Kleinecke wrote:
>
> > We have ex-hippies and we have stoned people. But I think the
> > populations don't overlap significantly. All the old hippies are now
> > over seventy and got to such an age by being careful. Careful is not
> > a attribute of the stoned.
> A strong impression I got in San Francisco is that all the hippies had
> moved over the bridge to Marin County. The hippies had turned into yuppies.
There weren't nearly as many hippies as people think. There were a lot of people
> On 20/05/22 15:07, David Kleinecke wrote:
>
> > We have ex-hippies and we have stoned people. But I think the
> > populations don't overlap significantly. All the old hippies are now
> > over seventy and got to such an age by being careful. Careful is not
> > a attribute of the stoned.
> A strong impression I got in San Francisco is that all the hippies had
> moved over the bridge to Marin County. The hippies had turned into yuppies.
from, say, the early 1960s to the mid-70s, or pick your own period, who had long hair,
smoked dope and dressed in a certain way, sometimes involving tie-dyed shirts. Many
people call them all hippies, but some of them were artists, university professors,
students, free-speech activists, bohemians from the '50s, political radicals, assorted
eccentrics, yippies and others.
Certainly some of them turned into what were called yuppies, but they were mostly
any of the above who went out and got jobs when they moved on to the next phase
of their lives.
bill
Jerry Friedman
May 20, 2022, 8:25:44 PM5/20/22
to
context of official names.)
Also, this is a different situation from that of Switzerland, Canada, etc.,
since the proposed official name is in a language that well under a hundred
people speak fluently.
--
Jerry Friedman
J. J. Lodder
May 26, 2022, 10:47:55 AM5/26/22
to
Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> On 20/05/22 18:20, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > On 2022-05-20 07:40:04 +0000, Silvano said:
> >
> >> Jerry Friedman hat am 19.05.2022 um 00:24 geschrieben:
> >>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 10:33:50 AM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
> >>
> >>>> Having names in two languages for a geographic feature is not
> >>>> at all unusual, globally speaking, so yes.
> >>>
> >>> Locally speaking, though, it's forbidden.
> >>
> >> In the US, maybe. In countries with two or more official
> >> languages, geographic features (and towns and cities) normally have
> >> different names in those languages.
> >
> > Sometimes very different, like Mons and Bergen.
>
> In some cases, e.g. the Belgian Mechelen/Malines, the two names are
> direct translations of each other.
>
> (Actually, Mons/Bergen is one of those cases. I'd never noticed that
> before.)
And Rijsel/Lille is one too.
> On 20/05/22 18:20, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > On 2022-05-20 07:40:04 +0000, Silvano said:
> >
> >> Jerry Friedman hat am 19.05.2022 um 00:24 geschrieben:
> >>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 10:33:50 AM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
> >>
> >>>> Having names in two languages for a geographic feature is not
> >>>> at all unusual, globally speaking, so yes.
> >>>
> >>> Locally speaking, though, it's forbidden.
> >>
> >> In the US, maybe. In countries with two or more official
> >> languages, geographic features (and towns and cities) normally have
> >> different names in those languages.
> >
> > Sometimes very different, like Mons and Bergen.
>
> In some cases, e.g. the Belgian Mechelen/Malines, the two names are
> direct translations of each other.
>
> (Actually, Mons/Bergen is one of those cases. I'd never noticed that
> before.)
Are there any that are really unrelated?
Jan
Silvano
May 26, 2022, 2:34:43 PM5/26/22
to
J. J. Lodder hat am 26.05.2022 um 16:47 geschrieben:
> And Rijsel/Lille is one too.
> Are there any that are really unrelated?
Please look yourself for the relationship between Aachen (German),
Aquisgrana (Italian) and Aix-la-Chapelle (French). Ok, A is always the
first letter. :-)
Italian friends of mine got lost on a Belgian highway before Internet
and navis, because they knew the first two names, but they could see
only the third one on Belgian highways on the French-speaking side they
were coming from.
Would they have understood that the Flemish Aken is the same as the
German Aachen if they had come from the north? Perhaps.
Also, we have in South Tyrol Ortisei (Italian) / St. Ulrich in Gröden
(German), Vipiteno (Italian) / Sterzing (German) and many more. In
Hungary: Pécs (Hungarian) / Fünfkirchen (German, perhaps outdated, but
please ask Austrians about it, as they still call Slovenia's capital
Laibach) and many more. In Poland (since 1945): Jelenia Góra (Polish) /
Hirschberg (German) and many more.
The last is not so unrelated, if you know that a German Hirsch, a Polish
jelen´ (the accent should be over the n) and an English deer are exactly
the same animal. Also, a German Berg, a Polish góra and an English
mountain are the same thing, but I guess than over 99.9% of native
English speakers do not know that.
> And Rijsel/Lille is one too.
> Are there any that are really unrelated?
Aquisgrana (Italian) and Aix-la-Chapelle (French). Ok, A is always the
first letter. :-)
Italian friends of mine got lost on a Belgian highway before Internet
and navis, because they knew the first two names, but they could see
only the third one on Belgian highways on the French-speaking side they
were coming from.
Would they have understood that the Flemish Aken is the same as the
German Aachen if they had come from the north? Perhaps.
Also, we have in South Tyrol Ortisei (Italian) / St. Ulrich in Gröden
(German), Vipiteno (Italian) / Sterzing (German) and many more. In
Hungary: Pécs (Hungarian) / Fünfkirchen (German, perhaps outdated, but
please ask Austrians about it, as they still call Slovenia's capital
Laibach) and many more. In Poland (since 1945): Jelenia Góra (Polish) /
Hirschberg (German) and many more.
The last is not so unrelated, if you know that a German Hirsch, a Polish
jelen´ (the accent should be over the n) and an English deer are exactly
the same animal. Also, a German Berg, a Polish góra and an English
mountain are the same thing, but I guess than over 99.9% of native
English speakers do not know that.
Kerr-Mudd, John
May 26, 2022, 3:09:13 PM5/26/22
to
On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:34:28 +0200
Silvano <Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
[]
Silvano <Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
[]
> the same animal. Also, a German Berg, a Polish góra and an English
> mountain are the same thing, but I guess than over 99.9% of native
> English speakers do not know that.
Hardly the same thing; English mountains are much smaller!
> mountain are the same thing, but I guess than over 99.9% of native
> English speakers do not know that.
Peter T. Daniels
May 26, 2022, 3:57:19 PM5/26/22
to
Richard Heathfield
May 26, 2022, 4:11:32 PM5/26/22
to
German mountains are small enough to fit in an atlas, whereas
English mountains are so big they take the best part of a day.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Peter Moylan
May 26, 2022, 6:08:50 PM5/26/22
to
in Poland, according to some documents, and Schneidermühl in Germany
according to others. It took me a while to realise that they are the
same place. It's in the part of Poland where borders kept shfting.
Ruud Harmsen
May 27, 2022, 2:52:09 AM5/27/22
to
Thu, 26 May 2022 20:34:28 +0200: Silvano
<Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> scribeva:
>Italian friends of mine got lost on a Belgian highway before Internet
>and navis, because they knew the first two names, but they could see
>only the third one on Belgian highways on the French-speaking side they
>were coming from.
Ruud Harmsen
May 27, 2022, 2:54:10 AM5/27/22
to
>Also, we have in South Tyrol Ortisei (Italian) / St. Ulrich in Gröden
>(German), Vipiteno (Italian) / Sterzing (German) and many more. In
>Hungary: Pécs (Hungarian) / Fünfkirchen (German, perhaps outdated, but
>please ask Austrians about it, as they still call Slovenia's capital
>Laibach) and many more. In Poland (since 1945): Jelenia Góra (Polish) /
>Hirschberg (German) and many more.
Pressburg. Bratislava.
>(German), Vipiteno (Italian) / Sterzing (German) and many more. In
>Hungary: Pécs (Hungarian) / Fünfkirchen (German, perhaps outdated, but
>please ask Austrians about it, as they still call Slovenia's capital
>Laibach) and many more. In Poland (since 1945): Jelenia Góra (Polish) /
>Hirschberg (German) and many more.
J. J. Lodder
May 27, 2022, 3:15:26 AM5/27/22
to
Jan
Kerr-Mudd, John
May 27, 2022, 4:36:56 AM5/27/22
to
Kerr-Mudd, John
May 27, 2022, 4:40:10 AM5/27/22
to
Tuvalu 5m max.
Silvano
May 27, 2022, 4:41:06 AM5/27/22
to
Kerr-Mudd, John hat am 26.05.2022 um 21:09 geschrieben:
Good joke, but: do you call e.g. the Mont Blanc a "mountain" in English?
Silvano
May 27, 2022, 4:43:49 AM5/27/22
to
Ruud Harmsen hat am 27.05.2022 um 08:52 geschrieben:
Wrong. We always say "Monaco di Baviera", precisely to avoid confusion
with the small country of Monaco.
with the small country of Monaco.
Kerr-Mudd, John
May 27, 2022, 4:45:01 AM5/27/22
to
I don't think I'd say "the mountain Mont Blanc", but I don't think it would strike Native Speakers as obviously wrong.
CDB
May 27, 2022, 6:54:50 AM5/27/22
to
On 5/26/2022 3:09 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> Silvano <Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
> []
>> the same animal. Also, a German Berg, a Polish góra and an English
>> mountain are the same thing, but I guess than over 99.9% of native
>> English speakers do not know that.
> Hardly the same thing; English mountains are much smaller!
Hardly more than barrows.
> Silvano <Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
> []
>> the same animal. Also, a German Berg, a Polish góra and an English
>> mountain are the same thing, but I guess than over 99.9% of native
>> English speakers do not know that.
> Hardly the same thing; English mountains are much smaller!
J. J. Lodder
May 27, 2022, 6:55:18 AM5/27/22
to
Kerr-Mudd, John <ad...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> On Fri, 27 May 2022 09:15:22 +0200
> nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
>
> > Kerr-Mudd, John <ad...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:34:28 +0200
> > > Silvano <Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
> > > []
> > > > the same animal. Also, a German Berg, a Polish góra and an English
> > > > mountain are the same thing, but I guess than over 99.9% of native
> > > > English speakers do not know that.
> > >
> > > Hardly the same thing; English mountains are much smaller!
> >
> > But Dutch mountains are smaller still!!
> >
> Try Nauru. Blimey 71m! Let's use a Famous Wiktionary:
>
> Tuvalu 5m max.
Excercise: spot the mountain, aka the 'berg' in
> On Fri, 27 May 2022 09:15:22 +0200
> nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
>
> > Kerr-Mudd, John <ad...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:34:28 +0200
> > > Silvano <Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
> > > []
> > > > the same animal. Also, a German Berg, a Polish góra and an English
> > > > mountain are the same thing, but I guess than over 99.9% of native
> > > > English speakers do not know that.
> > >
> > > Hardly the same thing; English mountains are much smaller!
> >
> > But Dutch mountains are smaller still!!
> >
> Try Nauru. Blimey 71m! Let's use a Famous Wiktionary:
>
> Tuvalu 5m max.
<https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillegersberg>
(hint, it is under the church)
Jan
(the //en. version has an inferior picture)
Richard Heathfield
May 27, 2022, 6:59:34 AM5/27/22
to
CDB
May 27, 2022, 8:57:19 AM5/27/22
to
On 5/27/2022 6:59 AM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
'barrow (n.2)
"mound, hill, grave-mound," Old English beorg (West Saxon), berg
(Anglian) "barrow, mountain, hill, mound," from Proto-Germanic *bergaz
(source also of Middle Dutch berch, Old Saxon, Old High German berg
"mountain," Old Frisian berch, birg "mountain, mountainous area," Old
Norse bjarg "rock, mountain"), from PIE root *bhergh- (2) "high," with
derivatives referring to hills and hill-forts.'
https://www.etymonline.com/word/barrow
"
> CDB wrote:
>> John wrote:
>>> Silvano <Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
>>> []
>>>> the same animal. Also, a German Berg, a Polish góra and an
>>>> English mountain are the same thing, but I guess than over
>>>> 99.9% of native English speakers do not know that.
>>> Hardly the same thing; English mountains are much smaller!
>> Hardly more than barrows.
> Try climbing one. They're higher than they look.
Yabbut,
>> John wrote:
>>> Silvano <Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
>>> []
>>>> the same animal. Also, a German Berg, a Polish góra and an
>>>> English mountain are the same thing, but I guess than over
>>>> 99.9% of native English speakers do not know that.
>>> Hardly the same thing; English mountains are much smaller!
>> Hardly more than barrows.
> Try climbing one. They're higher than they look.
'barrow (n.2)
"mound, hill, grave-mound," Old English beorg (West Saxon), berg
(Anglian) "barrow, mountain, hill, mound," from Proto-Germanic *bergaz
(source also of Middle Dutch berch, Old Saxon, Old High German berg
"mountain," Old Frisian berch, birg "mountain, mountainous area," Old
Norse bjarg "rock, mountain"), from PIE root *bhergh- (2) "high," with
derivatives referring to hills and hill-forts.'
https://www.etymonline.com/word/barrow
"
Richard Heathfield
May 27, 2022, 9:12:16 AM5/27/22
to
9.8m), and I've climbed a mountain, and my legs can easily tell
them apart.
Peter T. Daniels
May 27, 2022, 9:37:35 AM5/27/22
to
Peter T. Daniels
May 27, 2022, 9:39:18 AM5/27/22
to
Ken Blake
May 27, 2022, 10:38:16 AM5/27/22
to
Blanc.
CDB
May 27, 2022, 1:29:55 PM5/27/22
to
On 5/27/2022 9:12 AM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> CDB wrote:
>> Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>> CDB wrote:
>>>> John wrote:
>>>>> Silvano <Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
>>>>> []
>>>>>> the same animal. Also, a German Berg, a Polish góra and an
>>>>>> English mountain are the same thing, but I guess than over
>>>>>> 99.9% of native English speakers do not know that.
>>>>> Hardly the same thing; English mountains are much smaller!
>>>> Hardly more than barrows.
>>> Try climbing one. They're higher than they look.
>> Yabbut,
>> 'barrow (n.2)
>> "mound, hill, grave-mound," Old English beorg (West Saxon), berg
>> (Anglian) "barrow, mountain, hill, mound," from Proto-Germanic
>> *bergaz (source also of Middle Dutch berch, Old Saxon, Old High
>> German berg "mountain," Old Frisian berch, birg "mountain,
>> mountainous area," Old Norse bjarg "rock, mountain"), from PIE root
>> *bhergh- (2) "high," with derivatives referring to hills and
>> hill-forts.'
>> https://www.etymonline.com/word/barrow
> Yabbut, I've climbed a barrow (Hetty Pegler's Tump -- height 9.8m),
> and I've climbed a mountain, and my legs can easily tell them apart.
You snipped the paragraph I was responding to:
> CDB wrote:
>> Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>> CDB wrote:
>>>> John wrote:
>>>>> Silvano <Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
>>>>> []
>>>>>> the same animal. Also, a German Berg, a Polish góra and an
>>>>>> English mountain are the same thing, but I guess than over
>>>>>> 99.9% of native English speakers do not know that.
>>>>> Hardly the same thing; English mountains are much smaller!
>>>> Hardly more than barrows.
>>> Try climbing one. They're higher than they look.
>> Yabbut,
>> 'barrow (n.2)
>> "mound, hill, grave-mound," Old English beorg (West Saxon), berg
>> (Anglian) "barrow, mountain, hill, mound," from Proto-Germanic
>> *bergaz (source also of Middle Dutch berch, Old Saxon, Old High
>> German berg "mountain," Old Frisian berch, birg "mountain,
>> mountainous area," Old Norse bjarg "rock, mountain"), from PIE root
>> *bhergh- (2) "high," with derivatives referring to hills and
>> hill-forts.'
>> https://www.etymonline.com/word/barrow
> Yabbut, I've climbed a barrow (Hetty Pegler's Tump -- height 9.8m),
> and I've climbed a mountain, and my legs can easily tell them apart.
Richard Heathfield
May 27, 2022, 1:51:50 PM5/27/22
to
Ruud Harmsen
May 27, 2022, 6:07:19 PM5/27/22
to
CDB
May 28, 2022, 6:43:34 AM5/28/22
to
Anders D. Nygaard
May 29, 2022, 5:20:12 PM5/29/22
to
/Anders, Denmark
Kerr-Mudd, John
May 30, 2022, 6:17:55 AM5/30/22
to
On Sun, 29 May 2022 23:20:08 +0200
"Anders D. Nygaard" <news2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Den 28-05-2022 kl. 12:43 skrev CDB:
> > On 5/27/2022 1:51 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> >> CDB wrote:
> >>> Richard Heathfield wrote:
> >>>> CDB wrote:
> >>>>> Richard Heathfield wrote:
> >>>>>> CDB wrote:
> >>>>>>> John wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Silvano <Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
> >
> >>>>>>>> []
> >>>>>>>>> the same animal. Also, a German Berg, a Polish góra and
> >>>>>>>>> an English mountain are the same thing, but I guess
> >>>>>>>>> than over 99.9% of native English speakers do not know
> >>>>>>>>> that.
> >
[]
"Anders D. Nygaard" <news2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Den 28-05-2022 kl. 12:43 skrev CDB:
> > On 5/27/2022 1:51 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> >> CDB wrote:
> >>> Richard Heathfield wrote:
> >>>> CDB wrote:
> >>>>> Richard Heathfield wrote:
> >>>>>> CDB wrote:
> >>>>>>> John wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Silvano <Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
> >
> >>>>>>>> []
> >>>>>>>>> the same animal. Also, a German Berg, a Polish góra and
> >>>>>>>>> an English mountain are the same thing, but I guess
> >>>>>>>>> than over 99.9% of native English speakers do not know
> >>>>>>>>> that.
> >
> >>> You snipped the paragraph I was responding to:
> >
> >>> "the same animal. Also, a German Berg, a Polish góra and an English
> >>> mountain are the same thing, but I guess than over 99.9% of native
> >>> English speakers do not know that".
> >
> >> No, I didn't snip that paragraph.
> >
> > Right, sorry. The Mudge did it, listed in the credits as "John".
>
> ?? It's still up there, in fact as the very first contents in the post.
I was worried for a moment.
> >
> >>> "the same animal. Also, a German Berg, a Polish góra and an English
> >>> mountain are the same thing, but I guess than over 99.9% of native
> >>> English speakers do not know that".
> >
> >> No, I didn't snip that paragraph.
> >
> > Right, sorry. The Mudge did it, listed in the credits as "John".
>
> ?? It's still up there, in fact as the very first contents in the post.
CDB
May 30, 2022, 7:04:53 AM5/30/22
to
On 5/29/2022 5:20 PM, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
> CDB:
There are different versions floating around, some more radically
snipped than others. In the one where I wrongly claimed that RH had
snipped context, context had been snipped. Further discussions were
attached to the relatively unsnipped version you used. I CBA search
them out again, sorry.
--
CTA
> CDB:
snipped than others. In the one where I wrongly claimed that RH had
snipped context, context had been snipped. Further discussions were
attached to the relatively unsnipped version you used. I CBA search
them out again, sorry.
--
CTA
Phoenix Mister Two
Mar 9, 2023, 9:43:56 AM3/9/23
to
Lets not change names. Lets stop catering to the fragile sensibilities of those who are offended by everything. How about we get offended at them for being so offended.
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