Quartz=corts?
Michael
noticed that some people pronounce the word "quartz" as "corts", instead
of the usual "kwortz". I noticed the same thing with a quart of milk
being a cort of milk. I even heard "quote" pronounced "cote". This was
so rare, that for years I thought it was a speech impediment, like
people who have trouble with the letter R, but then I realized that
people who say cortz, instead of quartz, have no trouble pronouncing
words like quick, quite, or quake. Nobody ever says "earthcake" for
"earthquake", so I am thinking it must be a regional dialect of some
kind, but it must be a very small region, because I've only encountered
about a dozen people in my life who do this, and they otherwise have no
noticeable accent.
Michael
John Seeliger
OTOH, I know people who pronounced the video game Qix as Quix.
Charles Riggs
>I went through a couple of decades of hearing people speak before I
>noticed that some people pronounce the word "quartz" as "corts", instead
>of the usual "kwortz". I noticed the same thing with a quart of milk
>being a cort of milk.
I've often noticed this same laziness in speaking and, I'm sure, have
been guilty of it myself at times.
Another is "libary" for library.
Charles Riggs
John Seeliger
<l5t8ptgjssso9kb3f...@4ax.com>...
How about Febuary for February?
R H Draney
<jsee...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>Michael <a...@no.spam> wrote in article <3B9472...@no.spam>...
>> I went through a couple of decades of hearing people speak before I
>> noticed that some people pronounce the word "quartz" as "corts", instead
>> of the usual "kwortz".
>
>OTOH, I know people who pronounced the video game Qix as Quix.
How else would you pronounce it?.../tSIS/ (pinyin interpretation)?...
Seriously, I think what Michael is actually hearing is an alteration
of the /kwA/ to /kwo/ or /kwO/ in some dialects...with less distance
between the glide and the following vowel, those who hear it with a
certain accent may miss the glide altogether and hear it as a single
elongated vowel...speakers who apppear to "lose" the /w/ likely
include but are not limited to those who say "worsh" for "wash"...if
you can spend some time with someone who does this, see how prevalent
the /w/ sound is in words like "quality" (the first one that popped
into my mind with a low but not necessarily back vowel following the
/kw/)....
Incidentally, I've noticed what may be the reverse of this situation
when some people "assume" a Texas or a Southern US accent that they do
not possess...in at least two comedy songs I'm aware of, where the
artist is trying to sound "country", the word "me" comes out as
"mway"...the vowel shift I understand as a standard part of the
caricature, but I have no idea where that /w/ is coming from....r
Richard Fontana
> I went through a couple of decades of hearing people speak before I
> noticed that some people pronounce the word "quartz" as "corts", instead
> of the usual "kwortz". I noticed the same thing with a quart of milk
> being a cort of milk.
In my dialect, Postwar Prestige Standard[1], an influential contemporary
prestige dialect of American English, "quart" the unit of measure is
indeed a homophone of "court", /kOrt/, at least ordinarily (I'm sure
there's some tendency for the spelling to cause speakers to
backslide and use /kw/, e.g. when reading text aloud). But
"quartz" is /kwOrts/. "Quarter" the coin is /kOrtR/. But "quarters" =
"living accommodations" is /kwOrtRz/. "Headquarters" is /'hEd,kOrtRz/.
> I even heard "quote" pronounced "cote".
I'm having trouble believing that one.
> This was
> so rare, that for years I thought it was a speech impediment, like
> people who have trouble with the letter R, but then I realized that
> people who say cortz, instead of quartz, have no trouble pronouncing
> words like quick, quite, or quake. Nobody ever says "earthcake" for
> "earthquake", so I am thinking it must be a regional dialect of some
> kind, but it must be a very small region, because I've only encountered
> about a dozen people in my life who do this, and they otherwise have no
> noticeable accent.
It may be that you have not had sufficient exposure to speakers of Postwar
Prestige Standard and other dialects in which "quart" and "quarter" can be
pronounced with /k/ instead of /kw/. But the "cote" for "quote" thing is
absolutely unbelievable.
[1]Post-Gulf of Tonkin, but I don't think it makes a difference here.
Mark Brader
> I went through a couple of decades of hearing people speak before I
> noticed that some people pronounce the word "quartz" as "corts", instead
> of the usual "kwortz". I noticed the same thing with a quart of milk
(Shakes head)
*Usual?* You mean there are people who think "quarts" and "quartz"
*aren't* pronounced like "corts"?!?
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "For want of a bit the loop was lost..."
m...@vex.net -- Steve Summit
Padraig Breathnach
>I've often noticed this same laziness in speaking and, I'm sure, have
>been guilty of it myself at times.
>
>Another is "libary" for library.
>
I hear "libry" more often. Wonderful, isn't it, that a reasonably
commonplace word should have two popular mispronunciations?
PB
Alan Jones
"Mark Brader" <m...@vex.net> wrote in message
news:9n23ac$upf$1...@news.tht.net...
> "Michael" writes:
> > I went through a couple of decades of hearing people speak before I
> > noticed that some people pronounce the word "quartz" as "corts",
instead
> > of the usual "kwortz". I noticed the same thing with a quart of milk
> > being a cort of milk. ...
>
> (Shakes head)
>
> *Usual?* You mean there are people who think "quarts" and "quartz"
> *aren't* pronounced like "corts"?!?
There is apparently a separate word "quart" as a term in fencing and
cards, which NSOED shows as "kaht" (or indeed "cart" on this side of the
Pond). Is "corts" for "quarts" and "quartz" perhaps the older
pronunciation? Mark, does your comment indicate that you use /k/ rather
than /kw/?
Alan Jones
Graeme Thomas
>I went through a couple of decades of hearing people speak before I
>noticed that some people pronounce the word "quartz" as "corts", instead
>of the usual "kwortz". I noticed the same thing with a quart of milk
>being a cort of milk. I even heard "quote" pronounced "cote".
One of the official Scrabble word lists is _Official Scrabble Words_,
now in its fourth edition. It contains the word COATE. All words found
in that word list are supposed to be in _The Chambers Dictionary_, and I
once tried to find COATE in that book. For some years I failed, until I
spotted it as a Shaksperian variant of QUOTE. (I came to the conclusion
that a cross-reference would help, and I have informed the editors of
the dictionary.)
That seems to suggest that the 17th century pronunciation of QUOTE may
very well have been /koUt/.
--
Graeme Thomas
John Seeliger
<YfY9QMAMsKl7Ewe$@graemet.demon.co.uk>...
> In article <3B9472...@no.spam>, Michael <a...@no.spam> writes
> >I went through a couple of decades of hearing people speak before I
> >noticed that some people pronounce the word "quartz" as "corts", instead
> >of the usual "kwortz". I noticed the same thing with a quart of milk
> >being a cort of milk. I even heard "quote" pronounced "cote".
>
> One of the official Scrabble word lists is _Official Scrabble Words_,
> now in its fourth edition. It contains the word COATE. All words found
> in that word list are supposed to be in _The Chambers Dictionary_, and I
> once tried to find COATE in that book. For some years I failed, until I
> spotted it as a Shaksperian variant of QUOTE. (I came to the conclusion
> that a cross-reference would help, and I have informed the editors of
> the dictionary.)
Nevertheless, I'm glad Poe didn't say "coate (or couth) the raven,
'Nevermore.'"
Mark Brader
> > You mean there are people who think "quarts" and "quartz"
> > *aren't* pronounced like "corts"?!?
Alan Jones:
> Is "corts" for "quarts" and "quartz" perhaps the older pronunciation?
> Mark, does your comment indicate that you use /k/ rather than /kw/?
Yep. And, like the original poster, had never noticed that another existed.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto |"--", Paul said, and then repeated it for emphasis.
m...@vex.net | --Spider Robinson, "Lifehouse"
fruitbat
>
> >Michael <a...@no.spam> wrote in article <3B9472...@no.spam>...
> >> I went through a couple of decades of hearing people speak before I
> >> noticed that some people pronounce the word "quartz" as "corts", instead
> >> of the usual "kwortz".
>
> of the /kwA/ to /kwo/ or /kwO/ in some dialects...with less distance
> between the glide and the following vowel, those who hear it with a
> certain accent may miss the glide altogether and hear it as a single
> elongated vowel...speakers who apppear to "lose" the /w/ likely
> include but are not limited to those who say "worsh" for "wash"...
I'm not sure what you mean by an "appearance" of losing the /w/, but I
don't believe I actually pronounce it at all. In almost[1] every word
that contains "quart", I say "kort". I think it's the dominant
pronunciation around here (Southeastern Pennsylvania and nearby parts
of New Jersey). I do not, however, say "worsh" (or "warsh", for that
matter).
[1] When I read the word "quartus" for the first time, I said /kwAr/
instead of /kOr/ for some reason, but that's the only counterexample I
can think of, and most of my coworkers pronounce it "kOr" like they do
everything else...
Jerry Friedman
[begin quoted text]
[End quoted text]
Before this thread, I had never imagined that any native speaker would
say "quart" or "quartz" without the /w/. MWCD10 gives only /kwOrt/
and /kwOrts/, if they don't mind my capitalizing their o's.
Back when I knew American fencers, about twenty years ago, their
"quart" was pronounced "four". "Parry four, parry six, riposte, et
laaaaa!"
And do people still play picquet? If so, how do they pronounce
"quart"?
Perhaps, though, I should quite quickly quench the "quark" question.
--
Jerry Friedman
Michael
Michael
Michael
>
> On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Michael wrote:
>
> > I went through a couple of decades of hearing people speak before I
> > noticed that some people pronounce the word "quartz" as "corts", instead
> > of the usual "kwortz". I noticed the same thing with a quart of milk
> > being a cort of milk.
>
> In my dialect, Postwar Prestige Standard[1], an influential contemporary
> prestige dialect of American English, "quart" the unit of measure is
> indeed a homophone of "court", /kOrt/, at least ordinarily (I'm sure
> there's some tendency for the spelling to cause speakers to
> backslide and use /kw/, e.g. when reading text aloud). But
> "quartz" is /kwOrts/. "Quarter" the coin is /kOrtR/. But "quarters" =
> "living accommodations" is /kwOrtRz/. "Headquarters" is /'hEd,kOrtRz/.
>
> > I even heard "quote" pronounced "cote".
>
> I'm having trouble believing that one.
I'm not kidding. I have to qualify that slightly, though, because when
I try to remember it, it seems to me that the people form their lips as
if about to say "oooo", and then say "cote". It does create a barely
detectable difference, but if you were looking the other way, it would
be hard to tell that they weren't saying "coat" in the normal way. That
seems to be the way they pronounce "quartz", "quarter", etc. The lips
form into an ooo, but it doesn't noticeably affect the way it sounds.
I think of the word "white". I have always pronounced it the same as
"wide", but with a "t" in place of "d". In school, I had a teacher who
tried to teach us that the correct way was to imagine that you were
blowing out a candle when saying "white", so there is that little puff
of air at the start of the word. I think that the issue with words like
"quartz" is similar. To say it as "kwortz" almost necessitates a bit of
air on the "w". What is odd about that is that everyone I've known who,
like myself, says "wite" for "white", also pronounces "quartz" as
"kwortz". It would be interesting to know if people who say "white" as
if blowing out a candle, also say "cortz". That would make be a funny
kind of symmetry in styles of speech.
>
> > This was
> > so rare, that for years I thought it was a speech impediment, like
> > people who have trouble with the letter R, but then I realized that
> > people who say cortz, instead of quartz, have no trouble pronouncing
> > words like quick, quite, or quake. Nobody ever says "earthcake" for
> > "earthquake", so I am thinking it must be a regional dialect of some
> > kind, but it must be a very small region, because I've only encountered
> > about a dozen people in my life who do this, and they otherwise have no
> > noticeable accent.
>
> It may be that you have not had sufficient exposure to speakers of Postwar
> Prestige Standard and other dialects in which "quart" and "quarter" can be
> pronounced with /k/ instead of /kw/. But the "cote" for "quote" thing is
> absolutely unbelievable.
I wish I'd had a tape recorder. Same thing with "quotation", i.e.
"cotation".
Michael
Padraig Breathnach
> What about pronouncing Wednesday as Wenzeday?
>
What's wrong with that?
PB
Michael
>
> "Michael" writes:
> > I went through a couple of decades of hearing people speak before I
> > noticed that some people pronounce the word "quartz" as "corts", instead
> > of the usual "kwortz". I noticed the same thing with a quart of milk
> > being a cort of milk. ...
>
> (Shakes head)
>
> *Usual?* You mean there are people who think "quarts" and "quartz"
> *aren't* pronounced like "corts"?!?
Now that is really strange, because I notice you are also from Toronto.
Speaking very honestly, it seems to me that most of the people I have
met who say "corts" were from the central part of Toronto, i.e. less
than two miles from Yonge and Mt. Pleasant. I lived in the suburbs for
years and didn't here "corts" there even once.
It is strange that pronunciation can vary within a city. For example, I
noticed that in Toronto, re the word "schedule", people in the west end
pronounced it as "skedjewel", whereas in the east end it was always
"shedjewel", and sometimes even "shezhewel", with the middle "zh" as in
Zha-Zha Gabor. Sometimes even just "shezhul". I thought that things like
that only happened in England.
Michael
Richard Fontana
> Richard Fontana wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Michael wrote:
> > > I even heard "quote" pronounced "cote".
> >
> > I'm having trouble believing that one.
>
> I'm not kidding. I have to qualify that slightly, though, because when
> I try to remember it, it seems to me that the people form their lips as
> if about to say "oooo", and then say "cote". It does create a barely
> detectable difference, but if you were looking the other way, it would
> be hard to tell that they weren't saying "coat" in the normal way. That
> seems to be the way they pronounce "quartz", "quarter", etc. The lips
> form into an ooo, but it doesn't noticeably affect the way it sounds.
Well, if it's just a vowel like [o] or [O] that they're using, their lips
are likely to be rounded somewhat. But you seem to be suggesting that
there was a detectable difference between "quote" and "coat".
> I think of the word "white". I have always pronounced it the same as
> "wide", but with a "t" in place of "d". In school, I had a teacher who
> tried to teach us that the correct way was to imagine that you were
> blowing out a candle when saying "white", so there is that little puff
> of air at the start of the word.
Some English accents have /hw/ for the initial sound of "white" (and other
wh- words other than 'who' and its derivatives), and others have /w/. I'm
not sure which is more prevalent now, but in Postwar Prestige Standard it
is not natural to use /hw/. In those accents that have /hw/ it is the
case that "which" and "witch" are not homophones. In the US, some people
consider it more prestigious to use /hw/ (these are typically people who
do not have /hw/ in their native accents, and such people are particularly
well-represented in the news broadcasting profession), but others consider
it pretentious. I have argued, controversially, that even if /hw/ is part
of the speaker's natural accent, use of it cannot be considered correct in
some wh- words. For example, when I recently heard Noah Adams or some
other NPR guy use /hw/ in "double whammy", I nearly lost it.
> I think that the issue with words like
> "quartz" is similar. To say it as "kwortz" almost necessitates a bit of
> air on the "w". What is odd about that is that everyone I've known who,
> like myself, says "wite" for "white", also pronounces "quartz" as
> "kwortz". It would be interesting to know if people who say "white" as
> if blowing out a candle, also say "cortz". That would make be a funny
> kind of symmetry in styles of speech.
I suspect you would not find such a correlation, but I don't know. I
really do not thinkg "kortz" is common as a pronunciation of "quartz", but
I think it is reasonably common as a pronunciation of "quarts", and I
suspect that many if not most of those who say /kOrts/ for "quarts" would
also not use /hw/.
Sometimes our ears play tricks on us.
Richard Fontana
> What about pronouncing Wednesday as Wenzeday?
How do you say it?
Mark Brader
> Now that is really strange, because I notice you are also from Toronto.
> Speaking very honestly, it seems to me that most of the people I have
> met who say "corts" were from the central part of Toronto, i.e. less
> than two miles from Yonge and Mt. Pleasant. I lived in the suburbs for
> years and didn't
...Notice that Yonge St. and Mt. Pleasant Rd. are parallel? :-)
> ...[hear] "corts" there even once.
Bizarre.
For the last 18 years I have in fact lived within two miles of both Yonge
and Mt. Pleasant. But, as I noted earlier, I previously lived in England,
Alberta, and then other places in southern Ontario.
> It is strange that pronunciation can vary within a city. For example, I
> noticed that in Toronto, re the word "schedule", people in the west end
> pronounced it as "skedjewel", whereas in the east end it was always
> "shedjewel", and sometimes even "shezhewel", with the middle "zh" as in
> Zha-Zha Gabor.
That's Zsa-Zsa; it's just *pronounced* Zha-Zha.
> Sometimes even just "shezhul". I thought that things like
> that only happened in England.
I know what you mean!
I say "shedjul".
--
Mark Brader | "You wake me up early in the morning to tell me
Toronto | I am right? Please wait until I am wrong."
m...@vex.net | -- John von Neumann, on being phoned at 10 am
My text in this article is in the public domain.
R H Draney
<rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Michael wrote:
>
>> I think of the word "white". I have always pronounced it the same as
>> "wide", but with a "t" in place of "d". In school, I had a teacher who
>> tried to teach us that the correct way was to imagine that you were
>> blowing out a candle when saying "white", so there is that little puff
>> of air at the start of the word.
>
>Some English accents have /hw/ for the initial sound of "white" (and other
>wh- words other than 'who' and its derivatives), and others have /w/. I'm
>not sure which is more prevalent now, but in Postwar Prestige Standard it
>is not natural to use /hw/. In those accents that have /hw/ it is the
>case that "which" and "witch" are not homophones. In the US, some people
>consider it more prestigious to use /hw/ (these are typically people who
>do not have /hw/ in their native accents, and such people are particularly
>well-represented in the news broadcasting profession), but others consider
>it pretentious. I have argued, controversially, that even if /hw/ is part
>of the speaker's natural accent, use of it cannot be considered correct in
>some wh- words. For example, when I recently heard Noah Adams or some
>other NPR guy use /hw/ in "double whammy", I nearly lost it.
I asked about this on another newsgroup recently, but I see here
another opportunity...on the most familiar recording of Cab Calloway
performing "Minnie the Moocher", there's something odd happening in
the line "Minnie had a heart as big as a whale"....
(Set aside for a moment whether "as a whale" or "as a whale's" makes
more sense in context)....
I've saved a clipping of this line here:
http://home.earthlink.net/~dadoctah/hey-huh-wail.wav
Between me and the denizens of alt.movies.silent, a number of
different theories were discussed about what's happening at the
beginning of the word "whale":
(1) Cab started to say something other than "whale", possibly
something risqué, and corrected himself in mid-utterance....
(2) Cab started to pronounce the word as /hweIl/, decided it sounded
too hoity-toity for the audience he intended, and slurred it into the
form heard....
(3) Cab simply stuttered, accidentally or deliberately, at the
crucial moment....
(4) Multiple takes of the song were combined in an early (and by
today's standards primitive) attempt at splice-editing or the pre-tape
equivalent, and the syllable began at different points in each
version....
(5) The recording equipment slipped, producing a "mechanical error"
in the finished recording (remember, this was before tape)....
There are probably others...all give a listen and we'll see if we
can't find some kind of consensus....r
Richard Fontana
I'd go with either (4) or (5). It sounds too unnatural to be any of the
others.
Jonathan Jordan
"quarts" is not a homophone of "courts" - "courts" has an /oU/
(realised as [o:]) rather than an /O:/. My accent tends to be a
muddle of Sheffield (Yorkshire), RP and Northern Ireland though, so I
don't know whether all these features come from the same place.
Jonathan Jordan