A Hice in the Country
KEVIN RICHARD DUNCLIFFE
Here's something that's been on my mind for years. I've noticed in
London and the Home Counties that some people pronounce words such as
"house" or "mouse" to rhyme with "mice". Words such as "loose" or
"noose" end up sounding something like "lease" or "niece". Most of these
people seem to be RP speakers, or near enough, and under 35.
Has anyone else come across this? Or is it just me? Is this new or has
this always been with us?
--
Kevin Duncliffe -- MSc Student
Prifysgol Cymru/
University of Wales
ABERYSTWYTH
Markus Laker
KEVIN RICHARD DUNCLIFFE <kr...@aber.ac.uk>:
> Here's something that's been on my mind for years. I've noticed in
> London and the Home Counties that some people pronounce words such as
> "house" or "mouse" to rhyme with "mice". Words such as "loose" or
> "noose" end up sounding something like "lease" or "niece". Most of these
> people seem to be RP speakers, or near enough, and under 35.
>
> Has anyone else come across this? Or is it just me? Is this new or has
> this always been with us?
It's as old as the hills, and is usually either exaggerated
pretentiousness or a spoof. The Queen is reputed to speak like that --
but then she can carry it orff. It's what we pay her for.
Quaite naice f'the taime of yaaah, what?
Markus Laker.
[Posted and mailed.]
--
If you quote me, I would appreciate an email copy of your article.
Mike Barnes
In alt.usage.english, Markus Laker <la...@tcp.co.uk> spake thuswise:
>KEVIN RICHARD DUNCLIFFE <kr...@aber.ac.uk>:
>
>> Here's something that's been on my mind for years. I've noticed in
>> London and the Home Counties that some people pronounce words such as
>> "house" or "mouse" to rhyme with "mice". Words such as "loose" or
>> "noose" end up sounding something like "lease" or "niece". Most of these
>> people seem to be RP speakers, or near enough, and under 35.
>>
>> Has anyone else come across this? Or is it just me? Is this new or has
>> this always been with us?
>
>It's as old as the hills, and is usually either exaggerated
>pretentiousness or a spoof. The Queen is reputed to speak like that --
>but then she can carry it orff. It's what we pay her for.
>
>Quaite naice f'the taime of yaaah, what?
The accent is nicely spoofed in (IIRC) "Fraffly Well Spoken", by
Afferbeck Lauder. I remember particularly (but probably inaccurately)
his definition--
"Cod"
(1) an item used in games - types are clops, dammands, hots and speds
(2) an inedible fish
--
-- Mike Barnes, Stockport, England.
-- If you post a response to Usenet, please *don't* send me a copy by e-mail.
Robert Caven
kr...@aber.ac.uk (Kevin Duncliffe) wrote
>Here's something that's been on my mind for years. I've noticed in
>London and the Home Counties that some people pronounce words such as
>"house" or "mouse" to rhyme with "mice". Words such as "loose" or
>"noose" end up sounding something like "lease" or "niece". Most of
these
>people seem to be RP speakers, or near enough, and under 35.
>Has anyone else come across this? Or is it just me? Is this new or has
>this always been with us?
Well that explains why Keith Moon sounded so funny on the "Tommy" movie
soundtrack, when he sang
"You won't shite as I fiddle abite...fiddle abite...fiddle abite...fiddle
abite."
I always wondered whether I was just hearing things.
- Bob C.
eqe...@prodigy.com
Ian P. Hudson
Mike Barnes wrote:
> The accent is nicely spoofed in (IIRC) "Fraffly Well Spoken", by
> Afferbeck Lauder. I remember particularly (but probably inaccurately)
And I remember there is a saying that in Belgravia "sex" are containers
used for delivering coal!
This accent is not really "received pronunciation" any more: it is
"Sloane Square" (and other streets in that part of London). No BBC
newsreader has sounded like this for two decades, and some of them are
still the best example of what "RP" means in Britain now...
John Davies
In article <3336FD...@polymetis.thenet.co.uk>, "Ian P. Hudson"
<i...@polymetis.thenet.co.uk> writes
>Mike Barnes wrote:
>And I remember there is a saying that in Belgravia "sex" are containers
>used for delivering coal!
>
citizens of Edinburgh, rather than London. Certainly the Scottish
version is more apt: sex has never been very far from the thoughts of
the inhabitants of Belgravia, which is one of the causes of John Major's
current difficulties.
--
John Davies (jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk)
On that of which one cannot speak, one must remain silent. (Wittgenstein)
Mike Barnes
In alt.usage.english, John Davies <jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk> spake
thuswise:
>In article <3336FD...@polymetis.thenet.co.uk>, "Ian P. Hudson"
><i...@polymetis.thenet.co.uk> writes
>>Mike Barnes wrote:
[nothing, apparently]
>>And I remember there is a saying that in Belgravia "sex" are containers
>>used for delivering coal!
>>
>I think the original joke was by Billy Connolly, and referred to the
>citizens of Edinburgh, rather than London.
IIRC Afferbeck Lauder had "sex" of coal long before anybody had heard of
Billy Connolly.
> Certainly the Scottish
>version is more apt: sex has never been very far from the thoughts of
>the inhabitants of Belgravia, which is one of the causes of John Major's
>current difficulties.
Which difficulties are those? I smell a scandal. Please tell.
KEVIN RICHARD DUNCLIFFE
The responses to my original posting so far seem to be concerned with
"posh" people or cod "posh" accents. I should make it clear that the
pronunciation I have in mind is not quite like this. It comes from
people who are more middle-class than upper-class and is not affected.
You don't hear it in Belgravia but you do hear in in Berkhamsted,
Wimbledon, etc. And I reiterate that it seems to come from the
under-35s.
What I am referring to is the tendency to pronounce "house" to rhyme
with "mice" and "loose" to rhyme with "lease", or near enough. I'm sure
it can't just be my imagination..oh, hell, maybe it is. Thanks anyway.
--
Kevin Duncliffe
MSc Student
Dept. of Computer Science
University of Wales
ABERYSTWYTH
http://www.aber.ac.uk/~krd96
Avi Jacobson
Ian P. Hudson <i...@polymetis.thenet.co.uk> wrote in article
<3336FD...@polymetis.thenet.co.uk>...
> Mike Barnes wrote:
> > The accent is nicely spoofed in (IIRC) "Fraffly Well Spoken", by
> > Afferbeck Lauder. I remember particularly (but probably inaccurately)
> > his definition of "Cod"...
>
> used for delivering coal!
>
> "Sloane Square" (and other streets in that part of London). No BBC
> newsreader has sounded like this for two decades, and some of them are
> still the best example of what "RP" means in Britain now...
>
"Right Prat"? "Rigid Phart", perhaps?
--
Avi Jacobson, email: avi_...@netvision.net.il | When an idea is
Home Page (Israel): | wanting, a word
http://www.netvision.net.il/php/avi_jaco | can always be found
Mirror Home Page (U.S.): | to take its place.
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/4034 | -- Goethe
Dale Williams
KEVIN RICHARD DUNCLIFFE wrote:
>
> The responses to my original posting so far seem to be concerned with
> "posh" people or cod "posh" accents. I should make it clear that the
> pronunciation I have in mind is not quite like this. It comes from
> people who are more middle-class than upper-class and is not affected.
> You don't hear it in Belgravia but you do hear in in Berkhamsted,
> Wimbledon, etc. And I reiterate that it seems to come from the
> under-35s.
>
> What I am referring to is the tendency to pronounce "house" to rhyme
> with "mice" and "loose" to rhyme with "lease", or near enough. I'm sure
> it can't just be my imagination..oh, hell, maybe it is. Thanks anyway.
>
No, you're not imagining things. There are just not enough English
English posters to this newsgroup, as I've discovered in the past.
Examples of the usage you describe readily abind on BBC news programmes
when people are interviewed. It does sind affected, but I believe its
users don't consider it so.
It's a standing joke in my family that when one is rich, one's hice
costs thisands and thisands of pinds.
And in that satirical programme about the Royals in which actual archive
footage was used with a new sind track (forgotten its title), the Queen
was shown as making circles with her finger and saying that her horse
had gorn "rind and rind and rind and rind and rind".
I don't know about the loose/lease one though - I suspect they've not
gone quite that far yet. Though dibtless moving in that direction.
Cheers
Dale from Dine Under
Ross Howard
Dale Williams <word...@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:
>KEVIN RICHARD DUNCLIFFE wrote:
>>
>> The responses to my original posting so far seem to be concerned with
>> "posh" people or cod "posh" accents. I should make it clear that the
>> pronunciation I have in mind is not quite like this. It comes from
>> people who are more middle-class than upper-class and is not affected.
>> You don't hear it in Belgravia but you do hear in in Berkhamsted,
>> Wimbledon, etc. And I reiterate that it seems to come from the
>> under-35s.
>>
>> What I am referring to is the tendency to pronounce "house" to rhyme
>> with "mice" and "loose" to rhyme with "lease", or near enough. I'm sure
>> it can't just be my imagination..oh, hell, maybe it is. Thanks anyway.
>>
He's right about the suburban middle-class though (although I'd put
it at 45). It was a part of the baggage wannabe yuppies brought with
them in the early '80s. Especially /i:/. Suddenly everybody was saying
things like
for /u:/
I'm just gaying to the lea.
But that *can't* be tree!
I enjoyed it. What about yee?
I yeast to be *the* place to gay, but not nairdays. I
stopped gaying when find ite that Hyee Grant
goes there tea.
Ross Howard
John Nurick
On Thu, 27 Mar 1997 02:05:26 GMT, mike...@netaccess.co.nz (Mike Long)
wrote:
>On Sat, 22 Mar 1997 19:27:35 GMT, la...@tcp.co.uk (Markus Laker)
>wrote:
>>Quaite naice f'the taime of yaaah, what?
>Another digression. <slap on the hand>
>I have no citations, but here's what I think, anyway. That should be:
>..., wot?
>...not the pronunciation -- the word "wot". It makes sense -- "what"
>doesn't. " Using the word "wot"in this context would be the equivalent
>of saying ", you know?" Does anyone know if the spelling of "wot" was
>changed to "what" at some point?
I think George III was the first famous /wA.t wA.t/ man. Contemporary
transcriptions rendered it as "what?" and not "wot?". From a mad
Hanoverian king, "what?" somehow seems much more plausible.
I suspect (too idle to research it, dontcher know) that the verbal tic
was taken up by the Nashes or Brummels, and passed from them via
"Bwab" Brabazon & co. to the Drones Club.
John
Colin Fine
In article <333290...@aber.ac.uk>, KEVIN RICHARD DUNCLIFFE
<kr...@aber.ac.uk> writes
>Here's something that's been on my mind for years. I've noticed in
>London and the Home Counties that some people pronounce words such as
>"house" or "mouse" to rhyme with "mice". Words such as "loose" or
>"noose" end up sounding something like "lease" or "niece". Most of these
>people seem to be RP speakers, or near enough, and under 35.
Steve Bell's cartoons in the Guardian often make use of odd spellings to
convey particular accents, and he has had the Royals saying 'hice' and
'trizers' for years.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Colin Fine 66 High Ash, Shipley, W Yorks. BD18 1NE, UK |
| Tel: 01274 592696/0976 436109 e-mail: co...@kindness.demon.co.uk |
| "Creative people love acknowledgement. |
| But they seldom manage to accept it." -K.B.Brown |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davies
In article <p8o5vXAr...@exodus.co.uk>, Mike Barnes
<mi...@exodus.co.uk> writes[...]
>> Certainly the Scottish
>>version is more apt: sex has never been very far from the thoughts of
>>the inhabitants of Belgravia, which is one of the causes of John Major's
>>current difficulties.
>
>Which difficulties are those? I smell a scandal. Please tell.
>
--
John Davies (jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk)
You read it here first
Lee Lester
On Sat, 22 Mar 1997 19:27:35 GMT, la...@tcp.co.uk (Markus Laker)
wrote:
>Quaite naice f'the taime of yaaa?
ML>Does anyone know if the spelling of "wot" was
ML>changed to "what" at some point?
It's pronounced 'hwat,' dear boy? Notice, it is not only young ladies
who are addressed in this manner.
Patrick Gillard
In article <WUVCnOBO...@kindness.demon.co.uk>, Colin Fine
<co...@kindness.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <333290...@aber.ac.uk>, KEVIN RICHARD DUNCLIFFE
><kr...@aber.ac.uk> writes
>>Here's something that's been on my mind for years. I've noticed in
>>London and the Home Counties that some people pronounce words such as
>>"house" or "mouse" to rhyme with "mice". Words such as "loose" or
>>"noose" end up sounding something like "lease" or "niece". Most of these
>>people seem to be RP speakers, or near enough, and under 35.
>
>Steve Bell's cartoons in the Guardian often make use of odd spellings to
>convey particular accents, and he has had the Royals saying 'hice' and
>'trizers' for years.
>
I remember he once had a recognition chart to show how to distinguish
between Prince Phillip and Norman Tebbit. Phil says 'trizers' and Norman
says 'trahzis' He certainly has an ear for it.
--
Patrick Gillard
Chris Malcolm
In article <FLlzGFAB...@redwoods.demon.co.uk> John Davies <jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk> writes:
>In article <3336FD...@polymetis.thenet.co.uk>, "Ian P. Hudson"
><i...@polymetis.thenet.co.uk> writes
>>And I remember there is a saying that in Belgravia "sex" are containers
>>used for delivering coal!
>I think the original joke was by Billy Connolly, and referred to the
>citizens of Edinburgh, rather than London.
Specifically the inhabitants of the Morningside district of Edinburgh,
whose accent is the butt of many jokes. Belgravia is nonsense.
Another Morningside joke:
"Is that a doughnut or a meringue?"
"You're perfectly correct, madam."
--
Chris Malcolm c...@dai.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 650 3085
Department of Artificial Intelligence, Edinburgh University
5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK DoD #205
mig
On 29 Mar 1997 23:19:53 GMT, c...@dai.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm) wrote:
>Another Morningside joke:
>
>"Is that a doughnut or a meringue?"
>
>"You're perfectly correct, madam."
>--
Can't resist a related accent joke:
The Oklahoman asks, "What does my finger have in common with a lemon
pie? They both have meringue on them."
For those with confused looks on their faces, an Oklahoman would
pronounce "meringue" something like mah-rang or, "my ring".
saludos, "Grapes of Wrath" mig
---------------------------
Any fool can make a rule
And every fool will mind it.
Henry David Thoreau
-----
m...@satlink.com
Adrian Tan
>
> >Another digression. <slap on the hand>
>
> >I have no citations, but here's what I think, anyway. That should be:
>
> >..., wot?
>
> >...not the pronunciation -- the word "wot". It makes sense -- "what"
> >doesn't. " Using the word "wot"in this context would be the equivalent
> >changed to "what" at some point?
I've always interpreted "wot" as an attempt to represent a certain
pronunciation of "what" and not as having anything to do with any verb
"to know". "What" appears to have a number of elliptical usages, and
perhaps this is one of them. OED2 under "4c" claims "what" is used "As
an interrogative expletive (sometimes with _eh_) usually at the end of a
sentence, especially in recent trivial or affected colloquial use." It
doesn't give a "wot" in its examples for that entry, but does provide
that form elsewhere.
Duncan McKenzie
Adrian Tan <as...@usyd.edu.au> wrote in article
<33441A...@usyd.edu.au>...
> > >>Quaite naice f'the taime of yaaah, what?
> > >I have no citations, but here's what I think, anyway. That should be:
> >
> > >..., wot?
> I've always interpreted "wot" as an attempt to represent a certain
> pronunciation of "what" and not as having anything to do with any verb
> "to know".
Yes, I'm sure it's absolutely nothing to do with OE "witan". If I remember
right, the original began with a hard H -- hwaet.
Whenever I've read "wot" (eg, "Wot, no cheese?" or in various instances in
British children's comic books like Beano) I assume it's to give the
impression of a very uneducated pronunciation, even though, phonetically,
"wot" is a pretty accurate rendition of the way most people say "what". I
would read it Cockney-style, with a glottal stop to replace the T. So, in
fact, the spelling is very UNphonetic. But then, if you wrote "Woh?" nobody
would understand it.
I like "Wha?" myself, but the context is a bit different.
Duncan McKenzie
Toronto, Canada