"Jez" as a nickname for Jeremy

[Frank]

I'm in the States and been watching a UK show "Peep Show" and one of the
characters is called Jeremy, but his friends call him "Jez". Is that common
in the UK? I don't remember every hearing that in the US. Though here they
nick "Edward" with "Ted". Which makes no sense to me.

Also, the show is called "peep show" but is not a nudie show. I guess in
the UK it has a different meaning, like "spying"? I've come to enjoy the
show quite a bit. Almost up to the end of S7. Funny it's been 7 years and
they barely look like they have aged.

[the Omrud]

On 23/05/2013 22:35, Frank wrote:
> I'm in the States and been watching a UK show "Peep Show" and one of the
> characters is called Jeremy, but his friends call him "Jez". Is that
> common in the UK? I don't remember every hearing that in the US.
> Though here they nick "Edward" with "Ted". Which makes no sense to me.

Shortening given names to a single syllable ending in z to form a
nicknames for very close friends is quite common in BrE amongst
teenagers: Barry - Baz, Garry - Gaz, Gerald - Gez, Sharon - Shaz. It's
also very common to have these with "zzer" at the end: Bazzer, Gazzer,
Gezzer, Shazzer. There must be others. None of these would be used in
even slightly more formal situations, unlike Ted, Dick, etc.

> Also, the show is called "peep show" but is not a nudie show. I guess
> in the UK it has a different meaning, like "spying"? I've come to enjoy
> the show quite a bit. Almost up to the end of S7. Funny it's been 7
> years and they barely look like they have aged.

I don't know why it's called Peep Show, although I never watched more
than a few minutes. I know it was very well thought of.

--
David

[R H Draney]

the Omrud filted:

>
>On 23/05/2013 22:35, Frank wrote:
>> I'm in the States and been watching a UK show "Peep Show" and one of the
>> characters is called Jeremy, but his friends call him "Jez". Is that
>> common in the UK? I don't remember every hearing that in the US.
>> Though here they nick "Edward" with "Ted". Which makes no sense to me.
>
>Shortening given names to a single syllable ending in z to form a
>nicknames for very close friends is quite common in BrE amongst
>teenagers: Barry - Baz, Garry - Gaz, Gerald - Gez, Sharon - Shaz. It's
>also very common to have these with "zzer" at the end: Bazzer, Gazzer,
>Gezzer, Shazzer. There must be others. None of these would be used in
>even slightly more formal situations, unlike Ted, Dick, etc.

The "Pretend Pub" setting of the 1984 comedy show "Alfresco" assigned the
following character names to the regular cast members:

Robbie Coltrane - Bobzza
Siobhan Redmond - Shizza
Stephen Fry - Lord Stezza
Hugh Laurie - Huzza
Ben Elton - Bezza
Emma Thompson - Ezza

....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Andrew B]

On 23/05/2013 23:19, the Omrud wrote:
> On 23/05/2013 22:35, Frank wrote:
>> I'm in the States and been watching a UK show "Peep Show" and one of the
>> characters is called Jeremy, but his friends call him "Jez". Is that
>> common in the UK? I don't remember every hearing that in the US.
>> Though here they nick "Edward" with "Ted". Which makes no sense to me.
>
> Shortening given names to a single syllable ending in z to form a
> nicknames for very close friends is quite common in BrE amongst
> teenagers: Barry - Baz, Garry - Gaz, Gerald - Gez, Sharon - Shaz. It's
> also very common to have these with "zzer" at the end: Bazzer, Gazzer,
> Gezzer, Shazzer. There must be others. None of these would be used in
> even slightly more formal situations, unlike Ted, Dick, etc.

Note that the first syllable for all these names ends with r (Karen and
Darren would also fit). I don't think it'd be usual for a Kevin, say, to
be called "Kez".

[Robert Bannister]

On 24/05/13 6:19 AM, the Omrud wrote:
> On 23/05/2013 22:35, Frank wrote:
>> I'm in the States and been watching a UK show "Peep Show" and one of the
>> characters is called Jeremy, but his friends call him "Jez". Is that
>> common in the UK? I don't remember every hearing that in the US.
>> Though here they nick "Edward" with "Ted". Which makes no sense to me.
>
> Shortening given names to a single syllable ending in z to form a
> nicknames for very close friends is quite common in BrE amongst
> teenagers: Barry - Baz, Garry - Gaz, Gerald - Gez, Sharon - Shaz. It's
> also very common to have these with "zzer" at the end: Bazzer, Gazzer,
> Gezzer, Shazzer. There must be others. None of these would be used in
> even slightly more formal situations, unlike Ted, Dick, etc.

You omitted to mention that you can only do this with names that contain
an r. The older form was l for r - Terry was Tel - that has nearly
disappeared, but not completely.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

So much much for my "you can only do this with names that contain an r".
Thank you, Mr z Draney.
--
Robert Bannister

[R H Draney]

Robert Bannister filted:

Call me Rozza, and I'll do the same....r

[Frank]

"the Omrud" <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:LCwnt.15534$YO6....@fx29.am4...

> On 23/05/2013 22:35, Frank wrote:
>> I'm in the States and been watching a UK show "Peep Show" and one of the
>> characters is called Jeremy, but his friends call him "Jez". Is that
>> common in the UK? I don't remember every hearing that in the US.
>> Though here they nick "Edward" with "Ted". Which makes no sense to me.
>
> Shortening given names to a single syllable ending in z to form a
> nicknames for very close friends is quite common in BrE amongst teenagers:
> Barry - Baz, Garry - Gaz, Gerald - Gez, Sharon - Shaz. It's also very
> common to have these with "zzer" at the end: Bazzer, Gazzer, Gezzer,
> Shazzer. There must be others. None of these would be used in even
> slightly more formal situations, unlike Ted, Dick, etc.

okay, but those are all endings. I am still bothered by "Ted" from Edward.
How did a constant just come out of nowhere and land in? I can deal with
Maggie and Peggy from Margaret. And even Bill from William, and Bob from
Robert. But I am troubled by a constant being placed in front of Edward.
(Was there ever a "Tedward"?) Albert and Alphonse do not have a nick of Tad
or Tal, do they? Nor Eugene have some consonant picked out of the air and
placed in front of it, but simply the elegant "Gene" I have always found
Dick somewhat troubling. But again, Richard has at least a consonant in
front to morph. Though I do not like how the "ch" from Richard becomes a
hard "ck" that is Dick.

[Dr Nick]

But David can turn in to "Dazzer" or "Daz".

[Dr Nick]

I think you will have to remain bothered. If I introduce "Ned" to the
conversation will you become more bothered or less?

[Frank]

"Dr Nick" <nosp...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote in message
news:87ppwgn...@temporary-address.org.uk...

> I think you will have to remain bothered. If I introduce "Ned" to the
> conversation will you become more bothered or less?

I had not thought about Ned. I thought it was a standalone name till now,
but the "internet" says it is also a nickname for Edward. That ups the
bothered amount. And makes me wonder why another consonant out of the blue
in front of Edward... Who came up with Ned and Ted as a nickname for
Edward?? And who are the people that agreed and said "yeah, that makes
sense. Let's call people named Edward, Ted or Ned!"

[the Omrud]

I most certainly can not.

--
David

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Thu, 23 May 2013 23:19:13 +0100, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Pure speculation:

A "peep show" is/was, as Wikipedia says, "an exhibition of pictures,
objects or people viewed through a small hole or magnifying glass", and
as OED says, "Originally: a sequence of pictures viewed through a
magnifying lens or hole set into a box, formerly offered as a public
entertainment".

The idea might be that the viewer of "Peep Show" is observing the lives
of the characters.

It is not impossible that the writers had in mind "peep" as an
abbreviation of "people"[1]. So the "Peep Show" would be "viewers
peeping at people". As viewers are also people the "Peep Show" would be
"peeps peeping at peeps".


[1] A slang abbreviation of "people" is "peeps" (plural). According to
the OED it is used in both AmE and BrE.

Etymology: < peep, representing a pronunciation of the first
syllable of people n. + plural ending -s.

I first heard the word "peeps" from the British comedian Harry Enfield.
He is quoted in the OED:

1988 H. Enfield Wad & Peeps 94/1 Golf, the sport of badly
dressed peeps all round the world.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Iain Archer]

Frank wrote on Fri, 24 May 2013 at 03:01:06 GMT

A look through the birth registration indexes for one county of England
finds "Ted" right from the start of civil registration (1837), even a
few "Teddy", and a "Tedwill". Also some "Ned", but fewer.
--
Iain Archer

[Pablo]

Frank wrote:

> okay, but those are all endings. I am still bothered by "Ted" from
> Edward.

Give it to Edward.
Give it to Ed.
Give it Ted.

> How did a constant just come out of nowhere and land in? I can deal with
> Maggie and Peggy from Margaret. And even Bill from William, and Bob from
> Robert.

Heh. That's nothing. Everyone here that has the name Francisco can be Paco
or Curro.

And every José is also Pepe.

Women called Concepción are also Conchi.

Francisca is generally Paquita.

José María becomes Chema.

The list goes on.

--

Pablo

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wibbleypants/
http://paulc.es/

[abc]

Frank wrote:
> and Bob from Robert. But I am troubled by a constant being placed in
> front of Edward. (Was there ever a "Tedward"?) Albert and Alphonse do

What constant?
abc

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Perhaps the "constant" customarily spelled as "consonant".

[Jerry Friedman]

On May 24, 1:01 am, "Frank" <Let.me.be.Fr...@atleastsometimes.nl>
wrote:
> "Dr Nick" <nospa...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote in message

If I may quote myself (from a post here in January), 'The N in "Ned",
"Nell", "Nancy", "Nan", and the Johnsonian "Noll" is from "mine Ed",
"mine Helen", "mine Annis" (= "Agnes"), etc.'

For other nicknames, see this link, posted by Guy Barry:

http://www.english-test.net/forum/ftopic54798.html

--
Jerry Friedman

[Frank]

"abc" <abc@ab.c> wrote in message news:knnqif$f6d$1...@news.albasani.net...

oopos, someone noticed... change "constant" ---> "consonant"

[Frank]

"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
news:6mtup89roqfs7vn85...@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 24 May 2013 15:39:22 +0200, abc <abc@ab.c> wrote:
>
>>Frank wrote:
>>> and Bob from Robert. But I am troubled by a constant being placed in
>>> front of Edward. (Was there ever a "Tedward"?) Albert and Alphonse do
>>
>>What constant?
>>abc
>
> Perhaps the "constant" customarily spelled as "consonant".

it's nickname!

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Pablo <no...@nowhere.net> writes:

> Frank wrote:
>
>> okay, but those are all endings. I am still bothered by "Ted" from
>> Edward.
>
> Give it to Edward.
> Give it to Ed.
> Give it Ted.
>
>> How did a constant just come out of nowhere and land in? I can
>> deal with Maggie and Peggy from Margaret. And even Bill from
>> William, and Bob from Robert.
>
> Heh. That's nothing. Everyone here that has the name Francisco can
> be Paco or Curro.

I had never really thought about these, but looking into them, it
looks like we may want to reopen our "earliest known acronyms"
discussion.

According to Wikipedia, "Paco" comes from "Pater Comunitatis", the
Franciscan designation of St. Francis of Assisi.

> And every Jos� is also Pepe.

Even better. St. Joseph is the reputed father, or "Padre Putativo"
("PP" or "pe pe") of Jesus,

I can't think of any name etymologies remotely like that in English.

> Women called Concepci�n are also Conchi.

The "Con" would just be a shortening. Did "Conchita" come from
"Conchi" or vice versa. I'm guessing vice versa, with "Concepci�n"
shortening via "Conce -ita" to "Conchita" and that being reanalyzed as
"Conchi -ita" and having its suffix dropped.

> Francisca is generally Paquita.

That would follow from Francisco being Paco.

> Jos� Mar�a becomes Chema.

Same sort of /s/ to /tS/ as in "Conchi".

> The list goes on.

I have a coworker named Cipriano who goes by "Pano". I don't know how
common that one is. My current boss is "Malu", short for "Mar�a
Guadalupe".

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |The bathwater, in this case, does
SF Bay Area (1982-) |not appear to ever have contained
Chicago (1964-1982) |any baby.
|
evan.kir...@gmail.com | ronniecat

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[R H Draney]

Frank filted:

>
>okay, but those are all endings. I am still bothered by "Ted" from Edward.
>How did a constant just come out of nowhere and land in? I can deal with
>Maggie and Peggy from Margaret. And even Bill from William, and Bob from
>Robert. But I am troubled by a constant being placed in front of Edward.
>(Was there ever a "Tedward"?) Albert and Alphonse do not have a nick of Tad
>or Tal, do they? Nor Eugene have some consonant picked out of the air and
>placed in front of it, but simply the elegant "Gene" I have always found
>Dick somewhat troubling. But again, Richard has at least a consonant in
>front to morph. Though I do not like how the "ch" from Richard becomes a
>hard "ck" that is Dick.

How do you feel about "Hal" for "Henry", as Corky Shakespeare had it....r

[Frank]

"R H Draney" <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:knocq...@drn.newsguy.com...

> How do you feel about "Hal" for "Henry", as Corky Shakespeare had it....r

I don't feel great about it, but it does not bother me too much. It does
not have have a consonant come out of nowhere in front of an initial vowel
like Ned and Ted for Edward.

[Jerry Friedman]

On May 24, 10:33 am, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Pablo <no...@nowhere.net> writes:

[Billy Bob]

> > Heh. That's nothing. Everyone here that has the name Francisco can
> > be Paco or Curro.

I'd never heard "Curro".

> I had never really thought about these, but looking into them, it
> looks like we may want to reopen our "earliest known acronyms"
> discussion.
>
> According to Wikipedia, "Paco" comes from "Pater Comunitatis", the
> Franciscan designation of St. Francis of Assisi.

And "Pancho"?

Both "Paco" and "Pancho" look like baby-talk for "Francisco" to me.
"Pancho" has the /tS/ for /s/ that you mentioned in
regard to "Conchita" and "Chema", and I might add "Chuy", not to
mention the ones I can't think of right now.

I know a young man named Francisco whose nickname is Kiko (or Quico?)--
looks like more baby-talk.

(As sure as my name's "Jerry", I have nothing against baby-talk as a
source of nicknames.)

> > And every Jos is also Pepe.

Not here in New Mexico, and not in Mexico, I think.

> Even better.  St. Joseph is the reputed father, or "Padre Putativo"
> ("PP" or "pe pe") of Jesus,

...

Surely it's from an old "Joseph"-like name that preserved the /p/ or /
f/. Italian has "Peppo" and "Beppo" for "Giuseppe".

--
Jerry Friedman

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> writes:

> On May 24, 10:33 am, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Pablo <no...@nowhere.net> writes:
>
> [Billy Bob]
>
>> > Heh. That's nothing. Everyone here that has the name Francisco can
>> > be Paco or Curro.
>
> I'd never heard "Curro".

Me neither.

>> I had never really thought about these, but looking into them, it
>> looks like we may want to reopen our "earliest known acronyms"
>> discussion.
>>
>> According to Wikipedia, "Paco" comes from "Pater Comunitatis", the
>> Franciscan designation of St. Francis of Assisi.
>
> And "Pancho"?
>
> Both "Paco" and "Pancho" look like baby-talk for "Francisco" to me.

Well, yeah. But the other explanation's more fun.

> "Pancho" has the /tS/ for /s/ that you mentioned in regard to
> "Conchita" and "Chema", and I might add "Chuy",

For "Jesús"

> not to mention the ones I can't think of right now.
>
> I know a young man named Francisco whose nickname is Kiko (or Quico?)--
> looks like more baby-talk.

My nephew Ofek (Hebrew) has been Keki since he was a baby, based on
his (not much) older sister's attempt at pronouncing it.

> (As sure as my name's "Jerry", I have nothing against baby-talk as a
> source of nicknames.)
>
>> > And every Jos is also Pepe.
>
> Not here in New Mexico, and not in Mexico, I think.
>
>> Even better.  St. Joseph is the reputed father, or "Padre Putativo"
>> ("PP" or "pe pe") of Jesus,
> ...
>
> Surely it's from an old "Joseph"-like name that preserved the /p/ or /
> f/. Italian has "Peppo" and "Beppo" for "Giuseppe".

Sure. The Spanish Wikipedia agrees:

Una extendida etimología popular propala que este hipocorístico
proviene de las siglas del presunto apodo Pater Putativus ("padre
putativo") otorgado a José de Nazaret como marido de la Virgen
María. En realidad, se trata de una forma reducida de Jusepe,
antigua versión del nombre en español, análoga a las reducciones
de tantos otros hipocorísticos en español y otras lenguas
romances. Los casos análogos del valenciano/catalán (Pep, de
Josep) y el italiano (Peppe o Beppe, de Giuseppe) dan evidencia
suficiente de ello.

One widespread popular etymology for this nickname is that it
comes from the initials of the supposed title Pater Putativus
("purported father"), given to Joseph of Nazerth as husband of the
Virgen Mary. In reality, it is a shortening of Jusepe, an old
version of the name in Spanish, analgogous to the shortenings of
so many other given names in Spanish and other Romance languages.
The analogous cases of Valencian/Catalan (Pep, from Josep) and
Italian (Peppe or Beppe, from Giuseppe) give sufficient evidence
of this.

I kinda like the notion of schoolboys seeing the name written as "San
José (PP)" and deciding to call their buddy José "Pepe", though.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |"The Dynamics of Interbeing and
SF Bay Area (1982-) |Monological Imperatives in 'Dick
Chicago (1964-1982) |and Jane' : A Study in Psychic
|Transrelational Modes."
evan.kir...@gmail.com | Calvin

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Has anybody tried?

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Each of the concubines was more
SF Bay Area (1982-) |beautiful than the last, regardless
Chicago (1964-1982) |of what order you put them in,
|which was weird.
evan.kir...@gmail.com |
| Christopher Moore, _Lamb_
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Mike L]

And the Pakistani cricketer Miandad was known to Australian players as
"Dave".

--
Mike.

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

"Ned" is easy to understand. "N" went back and forth on words that
began with (or were reanalyzed to begin with) vowels: adder, auger,
apron, umpire, newt, nickname, nonce, etc. ("Orange" is similar, but
it had lost its "n" before it got to English.) "Apple pie [order]".

I don't have a good explanation for "Ted". I presume (without
justification) that it's been in use as a shortened form of "Theodore"
for as long, so it may simply be a matter of one name being
substituted for a similar one.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |The look on our faces isn't confusion.
SF Bay Area (1982-) |It's disbelief.
Chicago (1964-1982) |
| Jon Stewart
evan.kir...@gmail.com

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Tony Cooper]

Which reminds me, I have long intended to as the poster who signs
himself as "Naddy" from what that comes. I hope he shows up in this
thread.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL

[Robin Bignall]

A famous David in that sort of arena is David Beckham, who has just
announced his retirement from soccer after a most laudable career. As
far as I know (which isn't much) he hasn't ever been referred to as
"Dazza.
--
Robin Bignall
Herts, England (BrE)

[R H Draney]

Mike L filted:

>
>And the Pakistani cricketer Miandad was known to Australian players as
>"Dave".

Guy I used to work with was assigned to mentor two contractors from India with
long given names, one beginning with T and the other with R...I suggested the
nicknames "Tom" and "Ray", knowing that my friend was well acquainted with NPR's
"Car Talk"...somewhat surprisingly, T and R had no objection....r

[Robert Bannister]

The name "Robert" gave rise at various times to Robin, Dobbin, Nobbin
and Hobbin.

--
Robert Bannister

[John Holmes]

Mike L wrote:
>
> And the Pakistani cricketer Miandad was known to Australian players as
> "Dave".

Not because of his ruddy complexion. For puzzled foreigners, a series of
books, films and a long-running radio serial:
http://aso.gov.au/titles/features/dad-and-dave-come-to-town/clip2/?nojs=

--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au

[Frank]

"Evan Kirshenbaum" <evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:r4gwvw...@gmail.com...

> "Frank" <Let.me....@least.sometimes> writes:
>
>> "R H Draney" <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
>> news:knocq...@drn.newsguy.com...
>>
>>> How do you feel about "Hal" for "Henry", as Corky Shakespeare had
>>> it....r
>>
>> I don't feel great about it, but it does not bother me too much. It
>> does not have have a consonant come out of nowhere in front of an
>> initial vowel like Ned and Ted for Edward.
>
> "Ned" is easy to understand. "N" went back and forth on words that
> began with (or were reanalyzed to begin with) vowels: adder, auger,
> apron, umpire, newt, nickname, nonce, etc. ("Orange" is similar, but
> it had lost its "n" before it got to English.) "Apple pie [order]".

sorry I don't understand. Is there link to something explaining it more?

> I don't have a good explanation for "Ted". I presume (without
> justification) that it's been in use as a shortened form of "Theodore"
> for as long, so it may simply be a matter of one name being
> substituted for a similar one.

I am ok with Ted from Theodore, but not Edward.

[John Holmes]

Where did you get that superfluous 'n' at the beginning of 'ekename'?

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Ditto.

His usual nickname is Becks, particularly when linked with his wife as
"Posh and Becks".

Some years ago his wife let slip that she calls him Goldenballs.

This report says that she adopted a "ghetto" name for him. It does not
seem to escaped into the wild.

http://www.glamourmagazine.co.uk/celebrity/celebrity-news/2008/02/13/d-beck

13 February 2008
....
Apparently the A-list couple's new friend, rapper Snoop Dogg,
thought David needed a new, 'ghetto' name. A source claimed, "Snoop
thought the name David was a bit boring, and he wasn't too impressed
by Becks either. Now Posh is calling him D Beck too."

[Leslie Danks]

How do I avoid getting on the A-list?

--
Les (BrE)
"... be skeptical of government guidelines. The Indians learned not to trust
our government and neither should you." (Fallon & Enig)

[Pablo]

Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:

> I kinda like the notion of schoolboys seeing the name written as "San
> José (PP)" and deciding to call their buddy José "Pepe", though.
>

For those that don't know:

The letter P in Spanish is pronounced "Peh".

[Pablo]

Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:

> I don't have a good explanation for "Ted". I presume (without
> justification) that it's been in use as a shortened form of "Theodore"
> for as long, so it may simply be a matter of one name being
> substituted for a similar one.
>

My uncle Harold was generally known as Harry.

[Jerry Friedman]

On May 24, 4:03 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> writes:
> > On May 24, 10:33 am, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:

...

I suspect some of the appeal to schoolboys was the chance to say the
first two syllables of "putativo".

--
Jerry Friedman

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

"Frank" <Let.me....@least.awhile> writes:

> "Evan Kirshenbaum" <evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:r4gwvw...@gmail.com...
>> "Frank" <Let.me....@least.sometimes> writes:
>>
>>> "R H Draney" <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
>>> news:knocq...@drn.newsguy.com...
>>>
>>>> How do you feel about "Hal" for "Henry", as Corky Shakespeare had
>>>> it....r
>>>
>>> I don't feel great about it, but it does not bother me too much. It
>>> does not have have a consonant come out of nowhere in front of an
>>> initial vowel like Ned and Ted for Edward.
>>
>> "Ned" is easy to understand. "N" went back and forth on words that
>> began with (or were reanalyzed to begin with) vowels: adder, auger,
>> apron, umpire, newt, nickname, nonce, etc. ("Orange" is similar, but
>> it had lost its "n" before it got to English.) "Apple pie [order]".
>
> sorry I don't understand. Is there link to something explaining it
> more?

English still has one word, "an", which loses its final "n" before
consonants. (These days, we think of it as "a" becoming "an" before
vowels, but it makes more sense to analyze it the other way.)
Historically, "mine" and "thine" worked the same way: "mine apple",
"my cow". All of the words and phrases I listed were the subject of
such reanalysis:

a nadder -> an adder
a nauger -> an auger
a napron -> an apron
a noumpere -> an umpire [from French "non per", without equal]
an eft -> a neft -> a newt
an ekename -> a nickname ["eke" meant "also"]
then anes -> the nanes -> the nonce

"Orange" came from French, from Old Provençal "auranja", from Arabic
"naranj", cognate to Spanish "naranja".

"Apple pie order" is said to be a reanalysis of French "nappe plié".

>> I don't have a good explanation for "Ted". I presume (without
>> justification) that it's been in use as a shortened form of "Theodore"
>> for as long, so it may simply be a matter of one name being
>> substituted for a similar one.
>
> I am ok with Ted from Theodore, but not Edward.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |First Law of Anthropology:
SF Bay Area (1982-) | If they're doing something you
Chicago (1964-1982) | don't understand, it's either an
| isolated lunatic, a religious
evan.kir...@gmail.com | ritual, or art.

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[BCD]

On 5/24/2013 3:03 PM, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> [... teh snippage ...]

>
>> "Pancho" has the /tS/ for /s/ that you mentioned in regard to
>> "Conchita" and "Chema", and I might add "Chuy",
>

> For "Jes�s"

***It wasn't all that long ago that I found to my surprise that the
nickname "Jessie"/"Jesse" for a Latino male indicated "Jesus," at least
here in the L.A. area (elsewhere too?)--all the odder because "Jesus"
otherwise would be "Hay-soos" among the (Spanish-speaking) Latino
community. I'm wondering if use of "Jessie" as a nickname for "Jesus"
perhaps occurs only in English-as-the-primary-language Latino households
or groups.

Best Wishes,

--BCD

[Jerry Friedman]

On May 25, 10:06 am, BCD <piltdo...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On 5/24/2013 3:03 PM, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>

> > Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > [... teh snippage ...]
>
> >> "Pancho" has the /tS/ for /s/ that you mentioned in regard to
> >> "Conchita" and "Chema", and I might add "Chuy",
>

> > For "Jesús"

>
> ***It wasn't all that long ago that I found to my surprise that the
> nickname "Jessie"/"Jesse" for a Latino male indicated "Jesus," at least
> here in the L.A. area (elsewhere too?)

Normal here in northern New Mexico. I've also run into "Alvin" for
"Albino", "Larry" for "Laureano", and "Percy" for "Preciliano".

> --all the odder because "Jesus"
> otherwise would be "Hay-soos" among the (Spanish-speaking) Latino
> community.  I'm wondering if use of "Jessie" as a nickname for "Jesus"
> perhaps occurs only in English-as-the-primary-language Latino households
> or groups.

My impression, which is just an impression, is that it's more to have
something for the Anglos.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <dadaec2b-4806-4f61...@h13g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,

Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Normal here in northern New Mexico. I've also run into "Alvin" for
>"Albino", "Larry" for "Laureano", and "Percy" for "Preciliano".

My grandfather Laurent went by Larry after moving to Connecticut.
(But he also gave his full name as "Lawrence" when not speaking
French, and named his second son likewise.) I think people back then
treated given names as being subject to translation in a way that we
would only do for popes and royalty today. (But then again, how many
Etiennes ever became "Steve"?) My other uncles on that side got names
that were the same in English and French. (The girls, on the other
hand, got the totally standard popular American girls' names of that
era -- I checked on Baby Name Explorer once and IIRC all six were in
the top ten for the year they were born.)

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

[Robert Bannister]

On 25/05/13 7:14 PM, Pablo wrote:
> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>
>> I don't have a good explanation for "Ted". I presume (without
>> justification) that it's been in use as a shortened form of "Theodore"
>> for as long, so it may simply be a matter of one name being
>> substituted for a similar one.
>>
>
> My uncle Harold was generally known as Harry.
>

In many ways, changing Harold to Harry makes more sense than changing
Henry to Harry, but that's English.

--
Robert Bannister

[Jerry Friedman]

In America, "Harold" often becomes "Harry", and I don't think "Henry"
does very often.

--
Jerry Friedman

[R H Draney]

Jerry Friedman filted:

You have to watch those fundamental assumptions, though...I once discovered that
a friend's name was never Lawrence; his parents had actually filled out the
forms when he was born naming him "Larry"....

(My grandfather's given name was "Ralph" but everyone called him "Jim")....r

[Jerry Friedman]

On May 25, 9:05 pm, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> Jerry Friedman filted:
>
>
>
> >On May 25, 6:42=A0pm, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
> >> On 25/05/13 7:14 PM, Pablo wrote:
>
> >> > My uncle Harold was generally known as Harry.
>
> >> In many ways, changing Harold to Harry makes more sense than changing
> >> Henry to Harry, but that's English.
>
> >In America, "Harold" often becomes "Harry", and I don't think "Henry"
> >does very often.
>
> You have to watch those fundamental assumptions, though...I once discovered that
> a friend's name was never Lawrence; his parents had actually filled out the
> forms when he was born naming him "Larry"....

That's happening a lot now. "Larry" was the 200th most popular male
name in the U.S. in the '90s. Other former nicknames in the top 200
were
Jack (100)
Jake (114)
Alec (136)
Frank (147)
Johnny (176)
Max (177)
Randy (190)
Jerry (192)
Tony (197)

Female names:
Katie (69)
Jamie (95) (I'm not sure I should count that--there's no "fundamental
assumption" about a female Jamie's real name.)
Molly (94)
Lisa (118)
Natasha (149)
Nancy (163)
Cindy (196)
Gina (199)

"Randy" and "Gina" were more popular than any of the names they can be
nicknames for.

> (My grandfather's given name was "Ralph" but everyone called him "Jim")....r

Not for any obvious reason such as that his middle name was James, I
take it.

--
Jerry Friedman

[R H Draney]

Jerry Friedman filted:
>
>On May 25, 9:05=A0pm, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>> (My grandfather's given name was "Ralph" but everyone called him "Jim")..=

>..r
>
>Not for any obvious reason such as that his middle name was James, I
>take it.

Well, that, and only one (Forrest, the eldest) of the seven boys in his family
used the unabbreviatable first names my great-grandparents gave them....

This is the same grandfather who declared that if my parents named me Ronald, he
was going to call me Zebedee, Zeb for short...they did, and he did, and so did
everyone else who knew me up to the age of ten....r

[Cheryl]

My grandfather insisted on calling my mother by her first name, unlike
everyone else who called her by her second name, until she was about
five. One of her sisters was called 'Maise' which I thought for decades
was her real name because I'd never heard of it as a nickname for Mary.
Her real name was Mary Marguerite (the Marguerite after one of her
mother's friends) but the people who registered it got it wrong and
listed her as Mary Margaret, a much more common combination of names.
She asked me to get it officially corrected when I was working near the
office that took care of such things, and it was surprisingly easy to do
so in those days.

My grandmother must have had a number of friends with unusual names for
the time and place. She named another daughter Inez, pronounced locally
as EYE-ness, but Inez adopted a completely unrelated nickname as a young
adult, and was thereafter called by it by everyone except members of her
original family.

--
Cheryl

[Nick Spalding]

Robert Bannister wrote, in <b0d44h...@mid.individual.net>
on Sun, 26 May 2013 08:42:54 +0800:

The only Harold I can remember meeting is a near neighbour and he is
always known as Harry.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

[Nick Spalding]

R H Draney wrote, in <knru6...@drn.newsguy.com>
on 25 May 2013 20:05:42 -0700:

I've a son-in-law named Laurence who answers to either Larry or Lar, the
latter being Dublinese I think.

The only other Laurence I know is always known as Gus.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 26 May 2013 11:07:50 +0100, Nick Spalding <spal...@iol.ie>
wrote:

My neighbor Harold goes by "Hal". I know he is Harold only because
his mail is occasionally put in my mailbox.

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

"Henry" becomes "Hank" instead, apparently from Dutch.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |It's gotten to the point where the
SF Bay Area (1982-) |only place you can get work done is
Chicago (1964-1982) |at home, because no one bugs you,
|and the best place to entertain
evan.kir...@gmail.com |yourself is at work, because the
|Internet connections are faster.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Scott Adams

[R H Draney]

Tony Cooper filted:

>
>On Sun, 26 May 2013 11:07:50 +0100, Nick Spalding <spal...@iol.ie>
>wrote:
>>

>>The only Harold I can remember meeting is a near neighbour and he is
>>always known as Harry.
>
>My neighbor Harold goes by "Hal". I know he is Harold only because
>his mail is occasionally put in my mailbox.

And John Cho's character in the "Harold and Kumar" movies is known to his
closest friends as "Roldy"....

When did the recent practice of taking nicknames from the *middle* of a name
really take off?...there's actor Topher (for Christopher) Grace, and the
character Xander (Alexander) Harris from the "Buffy" TV series...outside the
entertainment field, I used to know a (Ber)Nardo....r

[Robert Bannister]

Those who read or are forced to read Shakespeare must get puzzled then
when they come across Prince Hal or, indeed, the current Prince Harry.

--
Robert Bannister

[Jerry Friedman]

Such puzzlement is known to happen. The current prince's nickname may
well be spreading the knowledge that "Harry" can be a nickname for
"Henry", and I wouldn't be surprised if the custom becomes a little
more popular over here. Not that I'll be able to tell.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Robert Bannister]

So hard for us older BrE speakers not to laugh when we hear "randy",
although the younger generation seem to have adopted "horny" lock, stock
and barrel.

Even though the granddaughter of one of my friends is named "Molly", I
would still expect a Molly to be Mary, but a number of names have
certainly gained full status. Of the ones you've mentioned, I would say
Alec, Jake, Cindy, Lisa, and Gina are established. Natasha too,
certainly - I have never met anyone (even Russian) called Natalya. I
have met people christened Jack, Sandy, Frank, Frankie, Jeri, Jon (not
always Jonathan), Katie, Cathy, Lisa, Liese... it all makes names like
Rita seem as though they've always been full names.

I'm not quite sure what to make of Jamie - as a boy's name, it sounds
Scottish, but then it merges in with Terri, Teri, Abi, Keri, Kelli,
Lori, and all the other stupid spellings. There are many other
diminutives that have become or are becoming fully-fledged names. When I
started thinking about it, the list became too long to write.

On the whole, I prefer these abbreviated "real" names to the many place
names popular today: Chelsea, Mason, Madison, Sydney, Dakota, Guadalupe
- the last two are from a list of alleged most popular girls' names for
2013 and includes a heap of surnames too, including Delaney, Mackenna,
Mackenzie and Mallory, plus the "hippy" ones like River, Sky, Harmony, etc.

Some names have strange spellings to a) make them more pronounceable b)
to make them distinctive and therefore less pronounceable or, unless
you're in the know, you can't say them because they are from Gaelic,
Arabic or who knows.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

So it is that r to z change we were talking about.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

I've have known a number called "Laurie" (pron. 'lorry'), although that
can also be a girl's name.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 27/05/13 12:05 AM, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> On May 25, 6:42 pm, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>>> On 25/05/13 7:14 PM, Pablo wrote:
>>>
>>>> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I don't have a good explanation for "Ted". I presume (without
>>>>> justification) that it's been in use as a shortened form of
>>>>> "Theodore" for as long, so it may simply be a matter of one name
>>>>> being substituted for a similar one.
>>>
>>>> My uncle Harold was generally known as Harry.
>>>
>>> In many ways, changing Harold to Harry makes more sense than
>>> changing Henry to Harry, but that's English.
>>
>> In America, "Harold" often becomes "Harry", and I don't think
>> "Henry" does very often.
>
> "Henry" becomes "Hank" instead, apparently from Dutch.
>

Yes. I know several Dutchmen here called Henk or Hank from Henrijk.
Disappointingly, I see this means "home ruler", where I had hoped for
"rich in hens".

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

Sandy for Alexander or Alexandra is very old.

--
Robert Bannister

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <2b02ea58-8728-4413...@v2g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,

Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On May 26, 9:17�pm, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>> Those who read or are forced to read Shakespeare must get puzzled then
>> when they come across Prince Hal or, indeed, the current Prince Harry.

>Such puzzlement is known to happen. The current prince's nickname may
>well be spreading the knowledge that "Harry" can be a nickname for
>"Henry"

How many people even know that his given name is "Henry" and not
"Harry"? Certainly I did not.

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <b0g3bd...@mid.individual.net>,

Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:

>I'm not quite sure what to make of Jamie - as a boy's name, it sounds
>Scottish, but then it merges in with Terri, Teri, Abi, Keri, Kelli,
>Lori, and all the other stupid spellings. There are many other
>diminutives that have become or are becoming fully-fledged names. When I
>started thinking about it, the list became too long to write.

Israeli men named "Daniel" who go by "Dani" have trouble when they
come here as that is interepreted as a female name. Some insist on
it, others go with the flow and become "Danny" when dealing with
Americans. (We also have issues with women named "Dana" who want it
pronounced the Israeli way, approximately "Donna", rather than the
normal-to-us "Dayna".)

Names (and especially nicknames) ending in -i or -ie are nearly always
interepreted as female. (Alex(e)i and Ari are the only
counterexamples I can think of, although I'm sure they are many more.)

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

And Freddie or Freda for Winifred, Trixie for Beatrix, Laney for
Elaine. Oh, and of course Tony for Anthony. Drew for Andrew. Gene
for Eugene. Tricia and Trish for Patricia. Becky for Rebecca. Ginny
for Virginia. Mandy for Amanda. Tina for Christina (and others).
Tori for Victoria. A good friend of mine is Andrea (second syllable
stress) who goes by Drea.

'Sbeen around for a while.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Specifically, I'd like to debate
SF Bay Area (1982-) |whether cannibalism ought to be
Chicago (1964-1982) |grounds for leniency in murder,
|since it's less wasteful.
evan.kir...@gmail.com | Calvin

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Leslie Danks]

"Sandl" is the German version round here. And I can't remember coming across
a Joseph who wasn't known as "Sepp".

--
Les (BrE)
"... be skeptical of government guidelines. The Indians learned not to trust
our government and neither should you." (Fallon & Enig)

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 04:26:36 +0000 (UTC), wol...@bimajority.org
(Garrett Wollman) wrote:

>In article <b0g3bd...@mid.individual.net>,
>Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>
>>I'm not quite sure what to make of Jamie - as a boy's name, it sounds
>>Scottish, but then it merges in with Terri, Teri, Abi, Keri, Kelli,
>>Lori, and all the other stupid spellings. There are many other
>>diminutives that have become or are becoming fully-fledged names. When I
>>started thinking about it, the list became too long to write.
>
>Israeli men named "Daniel" who go by "Dani" have trouble when they
>come here as that is interepreted as a female name. Some insist on
>it, others go with the flow and become "Danny" when dealing with
>Americans. (We also have issues with women named "Dana" who want it
>pronounced the Israeli way, approximately "Donna", rather than the
>normal-to-us "Dayna".)
>

In Britain "Dana" tends to be pronounced with the first "a" as "ah".
That may be a very similar sound to that in AmE "Donna".

In Ireland the sound is shorter like the "a" in BrE&IrE "cat".

Here is an example. The Irish singer and politican Dana (Dana Rosemary
Scallon) was one of the candidates in the last Irish Presidential
election. This clip shows the candidates on a TV talk show. The topic is
the planned reduction of the salary paid to the President:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3nEXk8hyDo&feature=youtu.be&t=59s


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[R H Draney]

Robert Bannister filted:

>
>On the whole, I prefer these abbreviated "real" names to the many place
>names popular today: Chelsea, Mason, Madison, Sydney, Dakota, Guadalupe
>- the last two are from a list of alleged most popular girls' names for
>2013 and includes a heap of surnames too, including Delaney, Mackenna,
>Mackenzie and Mallory, plus the "hippy" ones like River, Sky, Harmony, etc.

Guadalupe may be a place name now, but it was a personal name before that....r

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 04:18:56 +0000 (UTC), wol...@bimajority.org
(Garrett Wollman) wrote:

>In article <2b02ea58-8728-4413...@v2g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
>Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>On May 26, 9:17�pm, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>>> Those who read or are forced to read Shakespeare must get puzzled then
>>> when they come across Prince Hal or, indeed, the current Prince Harry.
>
>>Such puzzlement is known to happen. The current prince's nickname may
>>well be spreading the knowledge that "Harry" can be a nickname for
>>"Henry"
>
>How many people even know that his given name is "Henry" and not
>"Harry"? Certainly I did not.
>

I think I, here in the UK, might have known based on a distant
recollection of the announcement of his birth.

In his case "Harry" is rather more than a casual nickname. As the royal
website says:
http://www.royal.gov.uk/ThecurrentRoyalFamily/PrinceHarry/Stylesandtitles.aspx

Prince Harry's full title is His Royal Highness Prince Henry of
Wales. Despite officially being called Henry, he is always known as
Prince Harry.

In his military life, Prince Harry is known as Lieutenant Harry
Wales.

So in a military context it would be wrong to call him Lieutenant Henry
Wales.

The name of his website is based on his Totally Official title but it
refers to him as Prince Harry:
http://www.princehenryofwales.org/

[R H Draney]

Robert Bannister filted:

I've only known two Sandys in my life...the first was short for Sandra (the
daughter of famous western-swing bandleader Tex Williams, as it happens); the
second was officially yclept "August", but he had red hair....r

[Cheryl]

On 27/05/2013 1:56 AM, Garrett Wollman wrote:
> In article <b0g3bd...@mid.individual.net>,
> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm not quite sure what to make of Jamie - as a boy's name, it sounds
>> Scottish, but then it merges in with Terri, Teri, Abi, Keri, Kelli,
>> Lori, and all the other stupid spellings. There are many other
>> diminutives that have become or are becoming fully-fledged names. When I
>> started thinking about it, the list became too long to write.
>
> Israeli men named "Daniel" who go by "Dani" have trouble when they
> come here as that is interepreted as a female name. Some insist on
> it, others go with the flow and become "Danny" when dealing with
> Americans. (We also have issues with women named "Dana" who want it
> pronounced the Israeli way, approximately "Donna", rather than the
> normal-to-us "Dayna".)
>
> Names (and especially nicknames) ending in -i or -ie are nearly always
> interepreted as female. (Alex(e)i and Ari are the only
> counterexamples I can think of, although I'm sure they are many more.)
>
> -GAWollman
>

Russian also has male nicknames that sound female to English ear -
Kolya, Dima, Sasha, etc. It's the a at the end that does it.

--
Cheryl

[Walter P. Zähl]

Leslie Danks <leslie...@aon.at> wrote:
> Robert Bannister wrote:
>
>> On 27/05/13 4:53 AM, R H Draney wrote:
>>> Tony Cooper filted:
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 26 May 2013 11:07:50 +0100, Nick Spalding <spal...@iol.ie>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The only Harold I can remember meeting is a near neighbour and he is
>>>>> always known as Harry.
>>>>
>>>> My neighbor Harold goes by "Hal". I know he is Harold only because
>>>> his mail is occasionally put in my mailbox.
>>>
>>> And John Cho's character in the "Harold and Kumar" movies is known to his
>>> closest friends as "Roldy"....
>>>
>>> When did the recent practice of taking nicknames from the *middle* of a
>>> name really take off?...there's actor Topher (for Christopher) Grace, and
>>> the character Xander (Alexander) Harris from the "Buffy" TV
>>> series...outside the entertainment field, I used to know a
>>> (Ber)Nardo....r
>>
>> Sandy for Alexander or Alexandra is very old.
>>
> "Sandl" is the German version round here. And I can't remember coming across
> a Joseph who wasn't known as "Sepp".

That's clearly marked as Bavarian or Austrian; if you come to the Cologne
region, you'll find the same frequency of "Jupp", but not a single Sepp.
Not sure if the northern or eastern parts of Germany have their own local
variants - Jupp and Sepp seem to be unique in this. "Jo" (pronounced 'yo')
is universal.

/Walter

[Jerry Friedman]

On May 26, 11:23 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> writes:
> > On 27/05/13 4:53 AM, R H Draney wrote:
> >> Tony Cooper filted:
>

> >>> On Sun, 26 May 2013 11:07:50 +0100, Nick Spalding <spald...@iol.ie>

> >>> wrote:
>
> >>>> The only Harold I can remember meeting is a near neighbour and he is
> >>>> always known as Harry.
>
> >>> My neighbor Harold goes by "Hal".  I know he is Harold only because
> >>> his mail is occasionally put in my mailbox.
>
> >> And John Cho's character in the "Harold and Kumar" movies is known to his
> >> closest friends as "Roldy"....
>
> >> When did the recent practice of taking nicknames from the *middle* of a name
> >> really take off?...there's actor Topher (for Christopher) Grace, and the
> >> character Xander (Alexander) Harris from the "Buffy" TV series...outside the
> >> entertainment field, I used to know a (Ber)Nardo....r

In the entertainment field, one of the Puerto Rican gangsters in /West
Side Story/--I think the main one--is Nardo. Lupe is the long-
standing nickname for Guadalupe, and Tito can come from Robertito or
Ernestito as well as being a name in its own right (from Titus). Etc.

> > Sandy for Alexander or Alexandra is very old.
>
> And Freddie or Freda for Winifred, Trixie for Beatrix, Laney for
> Elaine.  Oh, and of course Tony for Anthony.  Drew for Andrew.  Gene
> for Eugene.  Tricia and Trish for Patricia.  Becky for Rebecca.  Ginny
> for Virginia.  Mandy for Amanda.  Tina for Christina (and others).
> Tori for Victoria.  A good friend of mine is Andrea (second syllable
> stress) who goes by Drea.
>
> 'Sbeen around for a while.

Also most of those nicknames for Elizabeth that have been around since
Good Queen Bess's day.

German-speakers do that too, as in Hansel and Gretel for Johann(es)
and Margarete. And much of that enormous list of Russian nicknames
that Cheryl mentioned a few from.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

It was a place name first (the first two syllables are from Arabic /
wadi al-/, "river of the"), but its history is definitely different
from that of the other ones on Rob's list.

I suspect Mason, Madison, and Sydney are thought of as surnames
adopted as first names, and Dakota refers more to the tribe than to
the states. Some place names that have become popular in America for
girls' names are Erin, Brittany, and Devon (also for boys). Wales,
Cornwall, Scotland, and Ireland seem unlikely, but I don't know why
they're waiting for Caledonia.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Cheryl]

The first time I met a Mercedes, I thought she was named after the car,
but that was not the case.

--
Cheryl

[Tony Cooper]

My daughter has a first name that isn't going to be found on a list:
her mother's maiden name.

She didn't like it when she was very young. She didn't like
explaining the source, she didn't like that she couldn't buy something
off the shelf with her name imprinted on it as all the Beths and
Sallys could, and she didn't like being different.

As she grew up, she became to like the idea of having a unique name.
If, for nothing else, it's a conversational ice breaker.

[Tony Cooper]

One grandson is a Kolya, but his full name is Nikolai.

>Dima, Sasha, etc. It's the a at the end that does it.
--

[Nick Spalding]

Jerry Friedman wrote, in
<b6b34fad-5686-46d7...@k4g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>
on Mon, 27 May 2013 07:06:28 -0700 (PDT):

My twin granddaughters are Summer and Taylor, no idea why. They make a
useful mnemonic to tell them apart, Taylor is taller, Summer is smaller.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

[Jerry Friedman]

On May 27, 3:03 am, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> Robert Bannister filted:
>
>
>
> >On 27/05/13 4:53 AM, R H Draney wrote:
>
> >> When did the recent practice of taking nicknames from the *middle* of a name
> >> really take off?...there's actor Topher (for Christopher) Grace, and the
> >> character Xander (Alexander) Harris from the "Buffy" TV series...outside the
> >> entertainment field, I used to know a (Ber)Nardo....r
>
> >Sandy for Alexander or Alexandra is very old.
>
> I've only known two Sandys in my life...the first was short for Sandra

Aha, that's one I missed. Behindthename.com says, "Short form of
ALESSANDRA. It was introduced to the English-speaking world by author
George Meredith, who used it for the heroine in his novel 'Emilia in
England' (1864) and the reissued version 'Sandra Belloni' (1887)."

> (the
> daughter of famous western-swing bandleader Tex Williams, as it happens); the
> second was officially yclept "August", but he had red hair....r

I knew a red-haired Sandy in high school. I can't remember his real
first name. You're probably not the one I should ask, but what does
the color of red hair have to do with sand?

The father of one of my elementary school classmates was named Sanford
Shore. Sandy. Get it?

--
Jerry Friedman

[Katy Jennison]

On 27/05/2013 15:24, Cheryl wrote:
>
> The first time I met a Mercedes, I thought she was named after the car,
> but that was not the case.
>

I found I couldn't warm to the car (not that I've had much opportunity)
because I associate the name with the character in The Count of Monte
Cristo (the book). (Yes, I know she's in the film too, but it was the
book which I read in my teens.)

--
Katy Jennison

[Jerry Friedman]

On May 27, 3:15 am, Cheryl <cperk...@mun.ca> wrote:
> On 27/05/2013 1:56 AM, Garrett Wollman wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> > In article <b0g3bdF3oa...@mid.individual.net>,

Interesting. I met a Dima and was told that was very unusual--most
Dmitris are called Mitya (etc.). Maybe lots of people chose "Dima"
because few people chose it.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Leslie Danks]

Presumably because 'red' hair is the same colour as (some kinds of) sand.

> The father of one of my elementary school classmates was named Sanford
> Shore. Sandy. Get it?
>
> --
> Jerry Friedman

[Cheryl]

I'm acquainted with a Dima who is also a Dimitry, but I wasn't aware of
the Mitya nickname, and don't know enough Russians to guess at the two
names' relative popularity.

--
Cheryl

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> writes:

> On May 27, 2:58 am, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>> Robert Bannister filted:
>>
>>
>>
>> >On the whole, I prefer these abbreviated "real" names to the many
>> >place names popular today: Chelsea, Mason, Madison, Sydney,
>> >Dakota, Guadalupe - the last two are from a list of alleged  most
>> >popular girls' names for 2013 and includes a heap of surnames too,
>> >including Delaney, Mackenna, Mackenzie and Mallory, plus the
>> >"hippy" ones like River, Sky, Harmony, etc.
>>
>> Guadalupe may be a place name now, but it was a personal name
>> before that....r
>
> It was a place name first (the first two syllables are from Arabic /
> wadi al-/, "river of the"),

Or "gully", a wadi being a river that's dry except after a rain, at
least in English. In this case, the Wadi al-lupe, or "Wolf gully".
Similarly "Guadalajara" (Stone Gully), "Gudalcanal" (Stall Gully),
"Guadalquivir" (Great River [it's always full]).

> but its history is definitely different from that of the other ones
> on Rob's list.

In particular, in 1531, the Virgin Mary appeared to Juan Diego on a
hill near Mexico City, spoke to him in Nahuatl, told him to build a
church, and, as proof of her identity, miraculously made her image
appear on a cloth in front of the local bishop. This icon now resides
in the Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe. And girls have been named
"Guadalupe" (shortened to "Lupe") or "María Guadalupe" (shortened to
"Malu")

So why "Guadalupe"? There's no river or city with that name in the
area. Well, there's one in western Spain, in Extramadura, and in the
early fourteenth century, the Virgin Mary appeared to Gil Cordero, out
looking for a missing cow, and told him to tell the local priests to
dig there to find a statue carved by St. Luke. So she was already
"Our Lady of Guadalupe". (But I don't believe that the naming thing
started until she showed up in Mexico.)

The alternative, first floated in the seventeenth century is that the
Spanish priests misunderstood a Nahuatl word, originally proposed to
be "Tecuatlanopeuh" (she whose origins were in the rocky summit) or
"Tecuantlaxopeuh" (she who banishes those who devoured us). Another
possibility is that it referred to Quetzalcoatl and was "Coatlaxopeuh"
(the one who crushes the serpent).

> I suspect Mason, Madison, and Sydney are thought of as surnames
> adopted as first names,

Almost certainly, probably via being used as middle names. Sydney
(or, more often, "Sidney") has been around so long in the US
(Wikipedia says from the early/mid nineteenth century) that most
people probably don't think of it as a surname at all anymore.

> and Dakota refers more to the tribe than to the states. Some place
> names that have become popular in America for girls' names are Erin,
> Brittany, and Devon (also for boys). Wales, Cornwall, Scotland, and
> Ireland seem unlikely, but I don't know why they're waiting for
> Caledonia.

--

Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Theories are not matters of fact,
SF Bay Area (1982-) |they are derived from observing
Chicago (1964-1982) |fact. If you don't have data, you
|don't get good theories. You get
evan.kir...@gmail.com |theology instead.
| --John Lawler
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Some sand is red.
Frinstance:
http://faculty.ucr.edu/~chappell/INW/scenics/redsand.shtml

That may not explain the link between red hair and sand, though.

>The father of one of my elementary school classmates was named Sanford
>Shore. Sandy. Get it?

--

[Jerry Friedman]

On May 27, 10:56 am, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> writes:

[Guadalupe]

> > It was a place name first (the first two syllables are from Arabic /
> > wadi al-/, "river of the"),
>
> Or "gully", a wadi being a river that's dry except after a rain, at
> least in English.

Apparently in Arabic too. At least, as far as I can tell from
Wikipedia, the usual word for "river", used for the Tigris, is
something else (نهر, and let's see who can see that).

Around here, of course, we say "arroyo", not "gully" (or "gulch",
"draw", or "coulee").

> In this case, the Wadi al-lupe, or "Wolf gully".
> Similarly "Guadalajara" (Stone Gully), "Gudalcanal" (Stall Gully),
> "Guadalquivir" (Great River [it's always full]).

So "wadi" got transferred to at least one perennial river in Spain.

> > but its history is definitely different from that of the other ones
> > on Rob's list.
>
> In particular, in 1531, the Virgin Mary appeared to Juan Diego

Normally we use the English versions of saints' names where available--
e.g., St. Rose of Lima, St. John of the Cross (not "Juan of the Cross"
or "Juan de la Cruz"). Should we refer to the guy who saw the Virgin
as St. John James?

> on a
> hill near Mexico City, spoke to him in Nahuatl, told him to build a
> church, and, as proof of her identity, miraculously made her image
> appear on a cloth in front of the local bishop.

Which she also filled with garden roses ("rosas de Castilla"), though
it was December. The cloth was a /tilmatli/, his garment and carrier.

> This icon now resides
> in the Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe.  And girls have been named
> "Guadalupe" (shortened to "Lupe") or "María Guadalupe" (shortened to
> "Malu")

Hm. I haven't known any Malus, but I did have a student named
Marilu. Simultaneously María Guadalupe and Mary Lou?

> So why "Guadalupe"?  There's no river or city with that name in the
> area.  Well, there's one in western Spain, in Extramadura, and in the
> early fourteenth century, the Virgin Mary appeared to Gil Cordero, out
> looking for a missing cow, and told him to tell the local priests to
> dig there to find a statue carved by St. Luke.  So she was already
> "Our Lady of Guadalupe".  (But I don't believe that the naming thing
> started until she showed up in Mexico.)
>
> The alternative, first floated in the seventeenth century is that the
> Spanish priests misunderstood

Or deliberately hispanicized?

> a Nahuatl word, originally proposed to
> be "Tecuatlanopeuh" (she whose origins were in the rocky summit) or
> "Tecuantlaxopeuh" (she who banishes those who devoured us).  Another
> possibility is that it referred to Quetzalcoatl and was "Coatlaxopeuh"
> (the one who crushes the serpent).
>
> > I suspect Mason, Madison, and Sydney are thought of as surnames
> > adopted as first names,
>
> Almost certainly, probably via being used as middle names.  Sydney
> (or, more often, "Sidney") has been around so long in the US
> (Wikipedia says from the early/mid nineteenth century) that most
> people probably don't think of it as a surname at all anymore.

...

It's probably true of Mason and Madison now too. I wonder how long it
takes for people to stop thinking of a name as a surname once it
starts being used as a first name.

--
Jerry Friedman

[R H Draney]

Jerry Friedman filted:

>
>German-speakers do that too, as in Hansel and Gretel for Johann(es)
>and Margarete. And much of that enormous list of Russian nicknames
>that Cheryl mentioned a few from.

I decided recently, watching the movie that recast them as professional
witch-hunters, that Hans-El and his sister Gret-El may have been Kryptonians,
and distant relatives of Superman....r

[R H Draney]

Jerry Friedman filted:

>
>On May 27, 3:03=A0am, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>
>> I've only known two Sandys in my life...the first was short for Sandra
>
>Aha, that's one I missed. Behindthename.com says, "Short form of
>ALESSANDRA. It was introduced to the English-speaking world by author
>George Meredith, who used it for the heroine in his novel 'Emilia in
>England' (1864) and the reissued version 'Sandra Belloni' (1887)."

But Sandy Williams was never Alessandra....

Just as, despite what it says in the Big Book Of Names, no Jill I've known was
ever Juliana....r

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

What does the color of (most) red hair have to do with the color red?
Hair colors that were thought of as close to sand were called both
"sandy blonde", "sandy red", or "sandy brown". Consider Rupert Grint,
who played Ron Weasley in the _Harry Potter_ movies. He's definitely
a redhead, and most of the recent pictures of him show what I would
call "sandy" hair. It's not "rusty" or "ginger".

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |The great thing about Microsoft
SF Bay Area (1982-) |dominating the world is that
Chicago (1964-1982) |there's no shortage of support
|opportunities.
evan.kir...@gmail.com | Sam Alvis

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> writes:

> Jerry Friedman filted:
>>
>>On May 27, 3:03=A0am, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> I've only known two Sandys in my life...the first was short for Sandra
>>
>>Aha, that's one I missed. Behindthename.com says, "Short form of
>>ALESSANDRA. It was introduced to the English-speaking world by author
>>George Meredith, who used it for the heroine in his novel 'Emilia in
>>England' (1864) and the reissued version 'Sandra Belloni' (1887)."
>
> But Sandy Williams was never Alessandra....

Right. He was Alexander. Sandy Koufax was Sanford.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |The General Theorem of Usenet
SF Bay Area (1982-) |Information: If you really want to
Chicago (1964-1982) |know the definitive answer, post
|the wrong information, and wait for
evan.kir...@gmail.com |someone to come by and explain in
|excruciating detail precisely how
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |wrong you are.
| Eric The Read

[R H Draney]

Evan Kirshenbaum filted:

>
>Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>> I knew a red-haired Sandy in high school. I can't remember his real
>> first name. You're probably not the one I should ask, but what does
>> the color of red hair have to do with sand?
>
>What does the color of (most) red hair have to do with the color red?
>Hair colors that were thought of as close to sand were called both
>"sandy blonde", "sandy red", or "sandy brown". Consider Rupert Grint,
>who played Ron Weasley in the _Harry Potter_ movies. He's definitely
>a redhead, and most of the recent pictures of him show what I would
>call "sandy" hair. It's not "rusty" or "ginger".

I'm *definitely* not the one Jerry or anyone else should ask when there's a
color involved...I've mentioned here before that I've never seen a "green"
traffic light that actually looked green to me, and when hair is involved it's
even worse...I've seen "blondes" whose hair was darker than the "brown" hair of
their friends...is "auburn" red or brown?..."strawberry blonde" red or
yaller?...and while we're on driver's license terminology, what exactly are
"hazel" eyes but brown with pretensions?....r

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> writes:

> and while we're on driver's license terminology, what exactly are
> "hazel" eyes but brown with pretensions?....r

As a bearer of hazel eyes, they're certainly not brown. They don't
appear to have worked out the genetics, but it's thought to be a level
of melanin between green and brown. Looking at my own eyes closely in
a mirror, it appears that there's something to do with the
distribution of pigment as well, as I would describe them as having a
thin ring of brown right around the pupil and a wider band of
green/gray around them.

Genetically, hazel eyes appear to pattern with green eyes as bb on
Bey2 (which makes a lot of melanin) and GG or Gg on Gey (which makes a
smaller amount of melanin), but there must be at least one more gene
involved to make hazel.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |It is error alone which needs the
SF Bay Area (1982-) |support of government. Truth can
Chicago (1964-1982) |stand by itself.
| Thomas Jefferson
evan.kir...@gmail.com

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Mike L]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 11:08:14 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On May 27, 10:56 am, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>> Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>[Guadalupe]
>
>> > It was a place name first (the first two syllables are from Arabic /
>> > wadi al-/, "river of the"),
>>
>> Or "gully", a wadi being a river that's dry except after a rain, at
>> least in English.
>
>Apparently in Arabic too. At least, as far as I can tell from
>Wikipedia, the usual word for "river", used for the Tigris, is

>something else (???, and let's see who can see that).

"Wadi" means simply "valley": you get dry ones and wet ones. Local
topography will influence local usage, of course.

I can't read your three question-marks, but that panel in Wkp shows
how the various regional names for the Tigris relate and overlap. The
two Arabic names don't contain an element I could identify as meaning
"river". The first Arabic word for "river" that comes to my mind is
"nahr". Some big rivers (e.g. branches of the Upper Nile) are called
"bahr", which really means "sea" but can extend to any large body of
water.

(Player's cigarettes are called "Bahri" - "Sailor", just as Craven 'A'
are called "Abu Bis" - "With a Cat".)
>
[...]

--
Mike.

[Robert Bannister]

On 27/05/13 4:58 PM, R H Draney wrote:
> Robert Bannister filted:
>>

>> On the whole, I prefer these abbreviated "real" names to the many place
>> names popular today: Chelsea, Mason, Madison, Sydney, Dakota, Guadalupe
>> - the last two are from a list of alleged most popular girls' names for
>> 2013 and includes a heap of surnames too, including Delaney, Mackenna,
>> Mackenzie and Mallory, plus the "hippy" ones like River, Sky, Harmony, etc.
>
> Guadalupe may be a place name now, but it was a personal name before that....r

Who? I can't find any reference to this. Wiki says:
'Guadalupe, or Guadeloupe (Spanish pronunciation: [ɡwaðaˈlupe]) was an
early Arabic name in reference to a "river of black gravel" or "river
with a black bed".'


--
Robert Bannister

[Odysseus]

In article <b0g3qd...@mid.individual.net>,
Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:

<snip>

> > When did the recent practice of taking nicknames from the *middle* of a name
> > really take off?...there's actor Topher (for Christopher) Grace, and the
> > character Xander (Alexander) Harris from the "Buffy" TV series...outside the
> > entertainment field, I used to know a (Ber)Nardo....r
>
> Sandy for Alexander or Alexandra is very old.

The Slavic "Sasha" seems similar, but there's not much of "Alexandr(a)"
left there.

--
Odysseus

[Robert Bannister]

I meant to say that about the surnames, many of which along with some
tribal names refer to the place where the ancestral bearer of the name
came from. I'm sure I've heard of a woman named "America", but so far
"England" and "Ireland" only seem to exist as surnames.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 27/05/13 1:23 PM, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> writes:
>

>> On 27/05/13 4:53 AM, R H Draney wrote:

>>> Tony Cooper filted:
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 26 May 2013 11:07:50 +0100, Nick Spalding <spal...@iol.ie>

>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The only Harold I can remember meeting is a near neighbour and he is
>>>>> always known as Harry.
>>>>
>>>> My neighbor Harold goes by "Hal". I know he is Harold only because
>>>> his mail is occasionally put in my mailbox.
>>>
>>> And John Cho's character in the "Harold and Kumar" movies is known to his
>>> closest friends as "Roldy"....
>>>

>>> When did the recent practice of taking nicknames from the *middle* of a name
>>> really take off?...there's actor Topher (for Christopher) Grace, and the
>>> character Xander (Alexander) Harris from the "Buffy" TV series...outside the
>>> entertainment field, I used to know a (Ber)Nardo....r
>>
>> Sandy for Alexander or Alexandra is very old.
>

> And Freddie or Freda for Winifred, Trixie for Beatrix, Laney for
> Elaine. Oh, and of course Tony for Anthony. Drew for Andrew. Gene
> for Eugene. Tricia and Trish for Patricia. Becky for Rebecca. Ginny
> for Virginia. Mandy for Amanda. Tina for Christina (and others).
> Tori for Victoria. A good friend of mine is Andrea (second syllable
> stress) who goes by Drea.

I thought we were just talking about the middle of the name rather than
the ending. On endings, although they're a bit old-fashioned now, a male
one is Bert for Albert, Hubert, Rupert, Umberto but not for some reason
Robert. In the old days, Charlotte became Lottie, but nowadays she is
more usually Charlie.
--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 27/05/13 5:03 PM, R H Draney wrote:
> Robert Bannister filted:
>>

>> On 27/05/13 4:53 AM, R H Draney wrote:
>>>
>>> When did the recent practice of taking nicknames from the *middle* of a name
>>> really take off?...there's actor Topher (for Christopher) Grace, and the
>>> character Xander (Alexander) Harris from the "Buffy" TV series...outside the
>>> entertainment field, I used to know a (Ber)Nardo....r
>>
>> Sandy for Alexander or Alexandra is very old.
>

> I've only known two Sandys in my life...the first was short for Sandra (the

> daughter of famous western-swing bandleader Tex Williams, as it happens); the
> second was officially yclept "August", but he had red hair....r
>
>

I have said this here before, but I once taught a girl whose official
name was Sandy Beach - no Alexandra she, just a few grains of silicon.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

Sandy for Alexander is most common in Scotland and, as with many
countries occupied by the Vikings, the Scots are known for red hair.
--
Robert Bannister

[R H Draney]

Robert Bannister filted:

The default expansion of "Bert" WIWAL was "Herbert"....r