use of the word 'darky' or 'darkie' in Australia
elph...@livveston.com
Australia in the early twentieth century..
I know that the words were applied to Aboriginal persons .
My question is whether the term was applied more widely, in a
friendly if jocular manner, to people of European ancestry who
happened to have skins somewhat darker than white?
Don Phillipson
news:508935d04t75o8fav...@4ax.com...
Basic Australian speech norms were 100 years ago nearly
the same as contemporary British norms. In Britain "darky"
was 100 years ago an Americanism, heard mainly in popular
entertainment (minstrel shows, Brer Rabbit stories etc.)
nowhere preferred over "nigger" and similar terms. I don't
think people discriminated finely about skin colour. People
talked in terms of race rather than colour, because the
Empire was full of different races, from the Australian
aborigine to the wily Pathan and the canny Scot. All or
any blackish people might be called either Negroes or
niggers (cf. Latin niger=black.) There are records from
India (where colour discrimination was normal a century
ago, cf. Nirad Chaudhuri, 1897 -1999) that darker Indians
(e.g. Tamils) were often called niggers. The children's
book Little Black Sambo is in fact set in India, not Africa.
I doubt that British or Australians attached any label for
Negroes (cf. also darky as new, from the USA) to
Europeans who "happened to have skins somewhat
darker than white." People who looked Levantine or
Spanish were called Arabs or Jews or Dagoes for a cluster
of physiological reasons, including skin colour but prima
facie not limited to that. The "racial science" of 1850-
1950 made fine distinctions about earlobes, eyebrows, lips,
chins etc. but seems often to have ignored complexion.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Joe Fineman
> There are records from India (where colour discrimination was normal
> a century ago, cf. Nirad Chaudhuri, 1897 -1999) that darker Indians
> (e.g. Tamils) were often called niggers.
From Orwell's _Burmese Days_ one gets the impression that the worse
sort of Englishmen in the Raj routinely referred to all the natives as
"niggers".
In my childhood (1940s), in a left-wing U.S. family, "darky" was not
yet considered offensive. We sang "'Tis summer, the darkies are gay"
straight.
Stephen Gaskin, who visited New Zealand in 1980, later commented:
Although it may not be common, it is heard of that the Maoris
are referred to as niggers. The English have a habit of going
everywhere in the world and referring to people in their own
country as niggers. It's one of the Englishmen's trips....
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net
||: There's no foolishness like old foolishness. :||
Richard Bollard
Not to my knowledge but I wouldn't rule it out. In Australia, a
red-head would often be called "bluey", and so on, so a dark-visaged
character might be called "snowy" in the same jocular manner. "Darkie"
is certainly not an established term and my awareness of it is
probably from American culture.
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia
To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.
Mike Lyle
> "Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> writes:
>
>> There are records from India (where colour discrimination was normal
>> a century ago, cf. Nirad Chaudhuri, 1897 -1999) that darker Indians
>> (e.g. Tamils) were often called niggers.
>
> From Orwell's _Burmese Days_ one gets the impression that the worse
> sort of Englishmen in the Raj routinely referred to all the natives as
> "niggers".
In Kipling, too, the usage was a marker of social or moral inferiority.
I note, though, that Pte Mulvaney, the Irish one of the "Soldiers
Three", used the word "naygur"; and the Irish are good guys in Kipling.
He himself was not above using the word of Africans.
>
> In my childhood (1940s), in a left-wing U.S. family, "darky" was not
> yet considered offensive. We sang "'Tis summer, the darkies are gay"
> straight.
The word was tabu in our family in Australia at the same time, and I
remember some fictional Aus war book in which an unpopular officer is
upbraided by one of the men for calling an Aboriginal soldier "darkie".
When singing round the piano with a Nigerian friend, I was much
embarrassed by the appearance of "darkies" in the song-book. He said he
didn't mind a bit, and sang it with gusto.
Back to the original question, though: George Macdonald Fraser's memoirs
say he was nicknamed "Darkie" by his men.
>
> Stephen Gaskin, who visited New Zealand in 1980, later commented:
>
> Although it may not be common, it is heard of that the Maoris
> are referred to as niggers. The English have a habit of going
> everywhere in the world and referring to people in their own
> country as niggers. It's one of the Englishmen's trips....
Hmm. It's news to me, but I won't say it's impossible. More offensive,
of course, than generalizing about a people by calling them "the ..." (I
suppose that "Englishmen's" up there is a typo for "Englishman's"). "The
English have a habit of..." is something I've said myself from time to
time, but of course it's all right when it's me that's doing it.
--
Mike.
Richard Bollard
wrote:
Watkin Tench (who was in the first group of English to settle here)
referred to the indigenous Australians as "Indians". Was a while ago,
though.
elph...@livveston.com
Somebody in another arena has drawn my attention to
www.anu.edu.au/ANDC/res/aus_words/wwi/D.php
where unbeknown to me there is a dictionary of slang among Australian
soldiers in WW1.
The entry reads:
"Dark Mode of addressing especially those with dark hair or
complexion.
General. From ca. 1880 (Partridge).
This is an abbreviation of �darky� applied to �a white man with a dark
skin�."
The context of my OP was in fact WW1, so I guess I have a packaged
answer to my question.
Joe Fineman
> Joe Fineman wrote:
>> From Orwell's _Burmese Days_ one gets the impression that the worse
>> sort of Englishmen in the Raj routinely referred to all the natives
>> as "niggers".
>
> In Kipling, too, the usage was a marker of social or moral
> inferiority.
An' if you treat a nigger to a dose o' cleanin'-rod,
'E's like to show you everything 'e owns.
Ick.
>> Stephen Gaskin, who visited New Zealand in 1980, later commented:
>> Although it may not be common, it is heard of that the Maoris
>> are referred to as niggers. The English have a habit of going
>> everywhere in the world and referring to people in their own
>> country as niggers. It's one of the Englishmen's trips....
>
> Hmm. It's news to me, but I won't say it's impossible. More
> offensive, of course, than generalizing about a people by calling
> them "the ..." (I suppose that "Englishmen's" up there is a typo for
> "Englishman's").
Not my typo, anyway. I wondered about that myself.
> "The English have a habit of..." is something I've said myself from
> time to time, but of course it's all right when it's me that's doing
> it.
Well, Gaskin, tho a radical, is a very American one, and has an
antique Middle Western hostility toward England, which I do not share
but find rather charming at this late date. On a visit to Canada, he
took care to point out to his hosts that without the Second Amendment
Britain might have subjugated us again.
The pun on "trips" is nice, anyway.
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net
||: Saw a crawdad big as a whale: :||
||: Jesus bugs fucking -- I was on their scale. :||
CDB
Not a direct reply to your question, but an occasional poster here,
The Other Fran, has said that Australians of Italian extraction, like
her, and also those from other southern European countries, are called
"wogs". Apparently they take it in stride.
Yes, here's some:
mike.j.har...@gmail.com wrote:
> I am always taken aback when I see the word "wog" used, quite
> casually,
> by (I think) mainly Australians in blogs, web forums, usenet groups,
> etc. It seems to mean "person of southern European origin, eg
> Spanish,
> Greek, Portuguese, etc", or "person with dark skin". I am not sure
> if
> it is exactly synonymous with "spic". Some Australians proudly
> describe
> themselves as "wogs". In the Uk, the word "wog" has the same
> inflammatory effect as, say, "nigger" or "darkie", and would be
> avoided
> by persons not wishing to appear racist.
[TOF]
It has lost much of its force in Australia now, in part because the
word has been appropriated by southern Europeans in a manner that
resembles the use of "nigger" by blacks in the US. A popular comedy
show called "Wogs Out of Work" involves a self-deprecating line of
humour by Greeks.
Joe Fineman
> It has lost much of its force in Australia now, in part because the
> word has been appropriated by southern Europeans in a manner that
> resembles the use of "nigger" by blacks in the US. A popular comedy
> show called "Wogs Out of Work" involves a self-deprecating line of
> humour by Greeks.
When I was in Scotland (1959), there was a saying amongst some
Scottish students: "Wogs begins at Newcastle".
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net
||: Money is like muck, no good unless it be spread. :||
James Silverton
>> It has lost much of its force in Australia now, in part
>> because the word has been appropriated by southern Europeans
>> in a manner that resembles the use of "nigger" by blacks in
>> the US. A popular comedy show called "Wogs Out of Work"
>> involves a self-deprecating line of humour by Greeks.
> When I was in Scotland (1959), there was a saying amongst some
> Scottish students: "Wogs begins at Newcastle".
> --
>
Lawd! Even in my neandertal days it was "Wogs begin at Calais"
--
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
Robert Bannister
> elph...@livveston.com wrote:
>> This is a question about usage of the words 'darky' and 'darkie' in
>> Australia in the early twentieth century..
>
>> I know that the words were applied to Aboriginal persons .
>
>> My question is whether the term was applied more widely, in a
>> friendly if jocular manner, to people of European ancestry who
>> happened to have skins somewhat darker than white?
>
> Not a direct reply to your question, but an occasional poster here,
> The Other Fran, has said that Australians of Italian extraction, like
> her, and also those from other southern European countries, are called
> "wogs". Apparently they take it in stride.
More common is "dings", also applied to Slav and other Mediterranean
people. Their retaliation is to call other Australians "skippies",
although this is a bit generational - I've only heard it from people
over 50.
--
Rob Bannister
Steve Hayes
>When I was in Scotland (1959), there was a saying amongst some
>Scottish students: "Wogs begins at Newcastle".
When I was in Durham in 1966 there was a saying "Wogs begin south of the
Trent".
In London it was "Wogs begin at Calais".
I was a wog in both places.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Richard Bollard
Interesting. I've never heard "dings". "Skips", I know and I've only
heard it from under 50s. Maybe we have our own intra-continental
pondialities.
Richard Bollard
<haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:33:34 -0400, Joe Fineman <jo...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>When I was in Scotland (1959), there was a saying amongst some
>>Scottish students: "Wogs begins at Newcastle".
>
>When I was in Durham in 1966 there was a saying "Wogs begin south of the
>Trent".
>
>In London it was "Wogs begin at Calais".
>
>I was a wog in both places.
People may know this, but a wog in Australia is also a minor illness.
"I was in bed with a wog" or "I was sick with a wog" have been heard,
Tom said passively.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<rich...@spamt.edu.au> wrote:
>On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 06:52:42 +0200, Steve Hayes
><haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:33:34 -0400, Joe Fineman <jo...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>When I was in Scotland (1959), there was a saying amongst some
>>>Scottish students: "Wogs begins at Newcastle".
>>
>>When I was in Durham in 1966 there was a saying "Wogs begin south of the
>>Trent".
>>
>>In London it was "Wogs begin at Calais".
>>
>>I was a wog in both places.
>
>People may know this, but a wog in Australia is also a minor illness.
>"I was in bed with a wog" or "I was sick with a wog" have been heard,
>Tom said passively.
This caused some twitchiness among her cow-orkers when my Australian
doctor cousin went to work in a hospital in England. I drove her back
there after a Christmas gathering at my parents. She invited me to go
with her into the hospital coffee/whatever room to see the on-duty
doctors so that she could catch up with the state of the patients. She
used the word "wog", meaning a minor infection, a couple of times. I
noticed that one or two of those present were not totally relaxed with
this.
She also made a comment about inconsiderate patients who drop dead as
soon as you turn your back. The reaction to that was different. The
others in the room looked to see how I would react; I didn't; I
understood.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
contrex
> mike.j.har...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I am always taken aback when I see the word "wog" used, quite
> > casually,
That is me quoted above. I think I mentioned somewhere else about the
1960s Barry Humphries / Nicholas Garland comic strip in the UK Private
Eye magazine, in which Bazza frequently uses the phrase "choke a
darkie" as a euphemism for "defecate". I am still not sure if this was
Humphries being mischievous, or whether the phrase really was in
common use. A Google search reveals plenty of hits, but I am not sure
whether they are indications of life following art.
Robert Bannister
Must be. "Ding" is much more common than "wog" except when you've got a
bad cold.
--
Rob Bannister
Errol
> "Don Phillipson" <e...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> writes:
> > There are records from India (where colour discrimination was normal
> > a century ago, cf. Nirad Chaudhuri, 1897 -1999) that darker Indians
> > (e.g. Tamils) were often called niggers.
>
> From Orwell's _Burmese Days_ one gets the impression that the worse
> sort of Englishmen in the Raj routinely referred to all the natives as
> "niggers".
>
> In my childhood (1940s), in a left-wing U.S. family, "darky" was not
> yet considered offensive. We sang "'Tis summer, the darkies are gay"
> straight.
>
> Stephen Gaskin, who visited New Zealand in 1980, later commented:
>
> Although it may not be common, it is heard of that the Maoris
> are referred to as niggers. The English have a habit of going
> everywhere in the world and referring to people in their own
> country as niggers. It's one of the Englishmen's trips....
From 'Soldier Boy', the 'diaries of Henry George Gilbert, a young NZ
trooper who fought in the latter stages of the Boer War in South
Africa.'
"It has just popped into my head that I omitted to tell you a thing or
two about Albany [Western Australia, en route to SA] niggers and a few
of their doings, so before I pass on I will finish that little item
up. Well, we saw four in all and one wee spratt-nigger in arms. They
were at street corners begging, two men and two women, if such a name
can be applied to such objects. I have seen some specimens of Maories
in the North Island [he was from 'the rural settlement of Cust, NW of
Christchurch'] but the worst I ever saw was a king to them."
--
Errol Cavit
Narelle
I am born & bred in Sydney and I've never heard of Dings either, but wog
is common, skip less so. Neither would be regarded as a particularly
offensive word, but this can be situational. As someone else mentioned
upthread, Nick Giannopoulos made a career out of the sterotypical wog
character.
Narelle
contrex
> wog is common, skip less so. Neither would be regarded as a particularly
> offensive word, but this can be situational. As someone else mentioned
> upthread, Nick Giannopoulos made a career out of the sterotypical wog
> character.
Well, I'll come out plainly and say I don't like it. Mild or not, such
ways do not endear Australians to me. Maybe that's because I'm a
"greaseball" myself.
Richard Bollard
Humphries made most of these up. They were happily adopted afterwards
for humourous usage.
Richard Bollard
You have to immerse yourself in a culture to judge it fairly. Heavily
ironic usage became humorous-proud usage became fairly neutral usage
quite quickly.
If the term ceases to be used with any real menace then it quickly
loses its pejorative tone.
contrex
> You have to immerse yourself in a culture to judge it fairly.
Would that apply if it was Germany 1933-45? And my name was Cohen?
Robert Bannister
Didn't you actually read what Richard wrote? He said: "If the term
ceases to be used with any real menace then it quickly
loses its pejorative tone."
Most people realise that real menace was a continuing feature of Nazi
Germany. BTW, I doubt that the name would have been any more popular
under Stalin.
--
Rob Bannister
Richard Bollard
Yes, but I wouldn't recommend it for the obvious reasons. You don't
*have* to judge a culture, some are best avoided.