Pronunciation of 'Amen' and 'Jesu' in Walton's music
Isabelle Cecchini
choir-singers and that's why I thought it would be a good idea to put my
query here.
How would you pronounce 'Amen' in William Walton's Missa Brevis? As you
do in Haendel's Messiah ? Is it /A:men/, or /eImen/? Walton's music is
modern, but the text is traditional Church of England liturgy, I think.
So my bet is on pronouncing 'Amen' in the traditional English way.
The word 'Jesu' is another word I made the acquaintance of, while
reading Walton's work. My pronouncing dictionary gives it as /dZi:zju:/.
Is that how those of you who are used to singing that type of work would
pronounce it ?
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Derek Turner
Jesu doesn't appear in the text of the missa brevis so I don't know why
you ask! It's the cod-vocative of Jesus often used in poetry and hymnody
(Ah! holy Jesu, how hast thou offended?)
Isabelle Cecchini
Derek Turner a écrit :
> Isabelle Cecchini wrote:
>> Quite a few members of this panel are also distinguished musicians and
>> choir-singers and that's why I thought it would be a good idea to put
>> my query here.
>>
>> How would you pronounce 'Amen' in William Walton's Missa Brevis? As
>> you do in Haendel's Messiah ? Is it /A:men/, or /eImen/? Walton's
>> music is modern, but the text is traditional Church of England
>> liturgy, I think. So my bet is on pronouncing 'Amen' in the
>> traditional English way.
>>
>> The word 'Jesu' is another word I made the acquaintance of, while
>> reading Walton's work. My pronouncing dictionary gives it as
>> /dZi:zju:/. Is that how those of you who are used to singing that type
>> of work would pronounce it ?
>>
>>
> yes and yes. Walton may be modern but he was British - always ARE-men.
Thanks!
> Jesu doesn't appear in the text of the missa brevis so I don't know why
> you ask!
It appears in my edition (Oxford University Press, p.17) in the Gloria,
in the text sung by the soprano solo: 'O Lord, the only begotten Son
Jesu Christ'.
We are a small choir and we take it in turns to sing the solos.
> It's the cod-vocative of Jesus often used in poetry and hymnody
> (Ah! holy Jesu, how hast thou offended?)
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Derek Turner
>
>
>
>> Jesu doesn't appear in the text of the missa brevis so I don't know
>> why you ask!
>
> It appears in my edition (Oxford University Press, p.17) in the Gloria,
> in the text sung by the soprano solo: 'O Lord, the only begotten Son
> Jesu Christ'.
>
You are quite right and I (and the web-site I consulted) was wrong!
The Book of Common Prayer has 'Jesu' in the Gloria in Excelsis, sorry
it's a long time since I went to a BCP communion service!
As you can see, it's in a vocative context and is a carry-over from the
Latin.
JEE-zoo
Isabelle Cecchini
[about 'Jesu'}
>
> As you can see, it's in a vocative context and is a carry-over from the
> Latin.
>
> JEE-zoo
Thanks. It's a little bit different from my dictionary's main
pronunciation, JEE-zyou. Your pronunciation is also noted, under a US label.
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Derek Turner
>
> Thanks. It's a little bit different from my dictionary's main
> pronunciation, JEE-zyou. Your pronunciation is also noted, under a US
> label.
>
Yes, I think I'd SAY JEE-zyou but as diphthongs are difficult to sing
properly and never sound right, I'd SING JEE-zoo.
Isabelle Cecchini
Good point! I think a French soprano might also find it more convenient.
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Alto
Matthew Huntbach
> Isabelle Cecchini wrote:
>> The word 'Jesu' is another word I made the acquaintance of, while reading
>> Walton's work. My pronouncing dictionary gives it as /dZi:zju:/. Is that
>> how those of you who are used to singing that type of work would pronounce
>> it ?
> yes and yes. Walton may be modern but he was British - always ARE-men. Jesu
> doesn't appear in the text of the missa brevis so I don't know why you ask!
> It's the cod-vocative of Jesus often used in poetry and hymnody (Ah! holy
> Jesu, how hast thou offended?)
It's the correct vocative, the "u" in "Jesus" deriving from the "u" in
Hebrew "Joshua" rather than the "u" in the Latin "-us" ending of the
second declension.
Correct pronunciation is "Yay-zoo", at least for Catholics.
Matthew Huntbach
K. Edgcombe
Matthew Huntbach <m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>It's the correct vocative, the "u" in "Jesus" deriving from the "u" in
>Hebrew "Joshua" rather than the "u" in the Latin "-us" ending of the
>second declension.
>
>Correct pronunciation is "Yay-zoo", at least for Catholics.
Interesting. Do you say "yay-zoos" for the nominative as well, in ordinary
English? If not, why the difference? Or are you referring here to Latin
text rather than English?
(I think the Walton the OP wanted to know about is an English text, isn't it?)
I would say (and sing) Jeezyou in an English text and "Yay-zoo" in a Latin one
(or a German one) - I think this would be the common practice in English choirs.
I don't think I've ever encountered the vocative in a French text, but I don't
think the French generally use the "Y" for "J", do they? - even when singing
Latin?
Katy
Matthew Huntbach
> Matthew Huntbach <m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
>> It's the correct vocative, the "u" in "Jesus" deriving from the "u" in
>> Hebrew "Joshua" rather than the "u" in the Latin "-us" ending of the
>> second declension.
>>
>> Correct pronunciation is "Yay-zoo", at least for Catholics.
> Interesting. Do you say "yay-zoos" for the nominative as well, in ordinary
> English? If not, why the difference? Or are you referring here to Latin
> text rather than English?
> (I think the Walton the OP wanted to know about is an English text, isn't it?)
No, it's "Jee-zus" in English, but "Yay-zoo" when the word "Jesu" appears
in an English text. This only happens in a few old hymns. I guess the reasoning
is that "Jesus" is taken to be an English word, but "Jesu" a Latin word
quoted in an English text.
Matthew Huntbach
Isabelle Cecchini
> In article <Pine.LNX.4.64.06...@frank.dcs.qmul.ac.uk>,
> Matthew Huntbach <m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
>> It's the correct vocative, the "u" in "Jesus" deriving from the "u" in
>> Hebrew "Joshua" rather than the "u" in the Latin "-us" ending of the
>> second declension.
>>
>> Correct pronunciation is "Yay-zoo", at least for Catholics.
>
> Interesting. Do you say "yay-zoos" for the nominative as well, in ordinary
> English? If not, why the difference? Or are you referring here to Latin
> text rather than English?
> (I think the Walton the OP wanted to know about is an English text, isn't it?)
It is.
> I would say (and sing) Jeezyou in an English text and "Yay-zoo" in a Latin one
> (or a German one) - I think this would be the common practice in English choirs.
Ah! That's very interesting. Thank you!
> I don't think I've ever encountered the vocative in a French text, but I don't
> think the French generally use the "Y" for "J", do they? - even when singing
> Latin?
I can't say that I've ever read 'Jesu' in a French text either. We
pronounce 'Jesus' and 'Jesu' when singing in Latin in the same way, I
think, as yours, in the Italian tradition.
For some works by French composers written on Latin texts when the
Gallican pronunciation was still usual in France, some choir-masters
might insist that the singers sing in a historically correct way, and in
such a case, 'Jesu' would indeed be pronounced /Zezy/*, in the French way.
*That really looks quite odd, when written in ASCII-IPA. I don't really
know how to transcribe the French "J" and "u" in another way that would
make sense.
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Alan Jones
> K. Edgcombe a écrit :
>> In article <Pine.LNX.4.64.06...@frank.dcs.qmul.ac.uk>,
>> Matthew Huntbach <m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> It's the correct vocative, the "u" in "Jesus" deriving from the "u"
>>> in Hebrew "Joshua" rather than the "u" in the Latin "-us" ending of
>>> the second declension.
>>>
>>> Correct pronunciation is "Yay-zoo", at least for Catholics.
>>
>> Interesting. Do you say "yay-zoos" for the nominative as well, in
>> ordinary English? If not, why the difference? Or are you referring
>> here to Latin text rather than English?
>> (I think the Walton the OP wanted to know about is an English text,
>> isn't it?)
>
> It is.
>
>> I would say (and sing) Jeezyou in an English text and "Yay-zoo" in a
>> Latin one (or a German one) - I think this would be the common
>> practice in English choirs.
I've been a choral singer for more years than I care to count, and a
conductor for almost as long, and I agree that in a work with a Church of
England English text and by an English composer "Jesu" is always "jeezyou"
and "Amen" is always "ah-men". Walton went - at 16, I think - to Christ
Church, Oxford, later to be my own college, and those are and were the
choir's standard pronunciations. For the Walton Missa Brevis the Latinate
"yay-zoo" and the "ay-men" sometimes heard in RC English are both
inappropriate. If the text were in Latin, as in Britten's Missa Brevis, we
might reasonably differ as to how Italianate the pronunciation should be -
not much more, in most English performances, than a gesture towards the
Liber Usualis rules.
Alan Jones
Isabelle Cecchini
[...]
> I've been a choral singer for more years than I care to count, and a
> conductor for almost as long, and I agree that in a work with a Church of
> England English text and by an English composer "Jesu" is always "jeezyou"
> and "Amen" is always "ah-men". Walton went - at 16, I think - to Christ
> Church, Oxford, later to be my own college, and those are and were the
> choir's standard pronunciations.
Thanks, first of all for sharing your knowledge, and second for making
me suddenly feel almost physically close to the composer.
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Jonathan Morton
I can't add much to that, except to say (a) that Alan's views as to
pronunciation would certainly be shared by the two leading choirs (St
John's and King's) at the other university and [OT](b) that, although
his missa brevis is not one of the works I know, Walton is certainly
worth getting to know - "The Twelve", "Set me as a seal" and "Drop,
drop, slow tears" immediately spring to mind as twentieth-century classics.
Elgar without the syrup, in many ways.
Regards
Jonathan
Robert Bannister
The "y" in "u" sounds is generally dropped these days when preceded by
l, r, s or z, but everybody is different, and some will insert a "y" in
one word and omit it in another, similarly spelt word. I, however, don't
remember hearing "jee-zyou" with a "y". Maybe because it is a word I
have mainly pronounced or heard pronounced in singing.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
I'm pretty sure one choir master I sang with made us use that
pronunciation, and we practised in a CofE church hall.
--
Rob Bannister
don groves
Yay-su. From the original transliteration, "iesu."
--
dg
"Jesus used to be merciful and loving of the poor. But now
he’s a Republican." – Kurt Vonnegut
Isabelle Cecchini
[...]
> I can't add much to that, except to say (a) that Alan's views as to
> pronunciation would certainly be shared by the two leading choirs (St
> John's and King's) at the other university and [OT](b) that, although
> his missa brevis is not one of the works I know, Walton is certainly
> worth getting to know - "The Twelve", "Set me as a seal" and "Drop,
> drop, slow tears" immediately spring to mind as twentieth-century
> classics.
I've discovered his music with a lot of interest. We have also started
reading a Jubilate Deo of his, and I find it very plesasurable.
> Elgar without the syrup, in many ways.
From time to time, France-Musiques, something like your Radio 3,
decides that broadcasting anything by Elgar, provided it is not Pomp
and Circumstance, will better our souls and, probably, make us into
better citizens.
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Not really an Elgar fan
Pat Durkin
"Isabelle Cecchini" <isabelle...@wananospam.invalid> wrote in
message news:447f0c09$0$16365$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...
> Jonathan Morton a écrit :
> [...]
>
>> I can't add much to that, except to say (a) that Alan's views as to
>> pronunciation would certainly be shared by the two leading choirs (St
>> John's and King's) at the other university and [OT](b) that, although
>> his missa brevis is not one of the works I know, Walton is certainly
>> worth getting to know - "The Twelve", "Set me as a seal" and "Drop,
>> drop, slow tears" immediately spring to mind as twentieth-century
>> classics.
>
> I've discovered his music with a lot of interest. We have also started
> reading a Jubilate Deo of his, and I find it very plesasurable.
Such a coincidence. On three separate days, I have seen or heard
references to Walton's work. I heard part of one composition by a
regional Wisconsin orchestra in commemoration of the 70th anniversary of
something. I had never heard of him before.
>
Mike Lyle
Pat Durkin wrote:
> "Isabelle Cecchini" <isabelle...@wananospam.invalid> wrote in
> > I've discovered his music with a lot of interest. We have also started
> > reading a Jubilate Deo of his, and I find it very plesasurable.
>
> Such a coincidence. On three separate days, I have seen or heard
> references to Walton's work. I heard part of one composition by a
> regional Wisconsin orchestra in commemoration of the 70th anniversary of
> something. I had never heard of him before.
> >
I like the symphonies, and Olivier's film of _Henry V_ just wouldn't be
the same without Walton's music.
--
Mike.
K. Edgcombe
I'm amazed that nobody has yet mentioned "Belshazzar's Feast". Well, I have
now. One of the most exciting things I've ever sung - lots of spine-tingling.
And Facade! (can't do cedillas on this machine......). I don't know whether
the Sitwell humour travels successfully; it's always struck me as rather
English.
Katy
Nick Spalding
on 2 Jun 2006 10:36:35 GMT:
He could turn his hand to Elgar as well. "Crown Imperial" for the
Coronation of George VI.
<http://www.williamwalton.net/works/orchestral/crown_imperial.html>
--
Nick Spalding
Jonathan Morton
[Walton]
> He could turn his hand to Elgar as well. "Crown Imperial" for the
> Coronation of George VI.
> <http://www.williamwalton.net/works/orchestral/crown_imperial.html>
That's the well-known one. But "Orb and Sceptre", also written for the
Coronation, is at least as good. As you say, both are excellent Elgar
pastiche.
Regards
Jonathan
Mike Lyle
about _Belshazzar_. I think I now find _Facade_ a bit annoying.
--
Mike.
Jonathan Morton
Actually "Spitfire" in the singular - the "Prelude and Fugue" written
for the film "Battle of Britain", but not (IIRC) actually used in the film.
I agree that "Façade" has dated badly. Edith Sitwell was pretty barking...
Regards
Jonathan