The 420 Words That Shakespeare Invented

[Dingbat]

The 420 Words That Shakespeare Invented

https://www.litcharts.com/blog/shakespeare/words-shakespeare-invented/

Anchovy is on the list; does this mean that fish went nameless before?

If not, why would he have needed a new name for it?

[Richard Heathfield]

It would appear he didn't.

From Spanish anchova, from Genoese Ligurian anciôa or related Corsican
anchjuva, anciua. The term's ultimate origin is unclear; some suggest it
may have derived from an unattested Vulgar Latin term *apiuva, from
Latin aphyē, apua, from Ancient Greek ἀφύη (aphúē) (which may be formed
like Sanskrit अभ्व (ábhva-, “monster”))[1]; others suggest it comes from
Basque antxu, anchu (“dried fish”), from anchuva (“dry”),[2] if that
Basque term is not itself derived from Latin via some intermediary.[3]

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[Peter T. Daniels]

No, those are words that have not been attested outside (earlier than)
Shakespeare yet. The OED, its historians have noted, were not terribly
zealous at combing Early Modern English for antedatings.

[Adam Funk]

Even so, "anchovy" shouldn't be on the list --- the OED has a citation
from 1582, when Shakespeare was 18, & an iffy one ("Called by the
Spaniards Anchouas") from 1578.


--
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not
preserved, except in memory. LLAP. ---Leonard Nimoy

[bil...@shaw.ca]

On Friday, September 24, 2021 at 7:30:06 AM UTC-7, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2021-09-24, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > On Friday, September 24, 2021 at 8:49:15 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> >
> >> The 420 Words That Shakespeare Invented
> >>
> >> https://www.litcharts.com/blog/shakespeare/words-shakespeare-invented/
> >>
> >> Anchovy is on the list; does this mean that fish went nameless before?
> >>
> >> If not, why would he have needed a new name for it?
> >
> > No, those are words that have not been attested outside (earlier than)
> > Shakespeare yet. The OED, its historians have noted, were not terribly
> > zealous at combing Early Modern English for antedatings.
> Even so, "anchovy" shouldn't be on the list --- the OED has a citation
> from 1582, when Shakespeare was 18, & an iffy one ("Called by the
> Spaniards Anchouas") from 1578.
>

You're reminding me of something that has puzzled me for decades.
The Portuguese word for cod is bacalhau, and the Dutch is kabeljauw.
They were the two great cod-fishing nations for a time, but it sounds
as if one of them gave the cod a name, and the other adopted it but
scrambled the consonants in the first syllable. Does anyone here know
how this came about?

bill

[Peter Moylan]

On 25/09/21 09:30, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:

> You're reminding me of something that has puzzled me for decades. The
> Portuguese word for cod is bacalhau, and the Dutch is kabeljauw. They
> were the two great cod-fishing nations for a time, but it sounds as
> if one of them gave the cod a name, and the other adopted it but
> scrambled the consonants in the first syllable. Does anyone here
> know how this came about?

I don't know the answer, but I put this in the same category as
something else that has bothered me for years. Why are Portuguese
"obrigado" and Japanese "arigato" almost the same word? There does not
seem to have been any borrowing.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Jerry Friedman]

On Friday, September 24, 2021 at 4:30:10 PM UTC-6, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:

[anchovy]

> You're reminding me of something that has puzzled me for decades.
> The Portuguese word for cod is bacalhau, and the Dutch is kabeljauw.
> They were the two great cod-fishing nations for a time, but it sounds
> as if one of them gave the cod a name, and the other adopted it but
> scrambled the consonants in the first syllable. Does anyone here know
> how this came about?

A Dutch person with a good etymological source may be along soon. For
now, someone at Wiktionary thinks the Dutch word may have come from
the Portuguese and Basque ones.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kabeljauw

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

Just coincidence, like "sheriff" and "sharif", or Hebrew "kmo" and Spanish
and Portuguese "como", meaning "like, as".

Language Log recently did "arigato".

https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=52053

--
Jerry Friedman

[J. J. Lodder]

bil...@shaw.ca <bil...@shaw.ca> wrote:

> On Friday, September 24, 2021 at 7:30:06 AM UTC-7, Adam Funk wrote:
> > On 2021-09-24, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >
> > > On Friday, September 24, 2021 at 8:49:15 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > >
> > >> The 420 Words That Shakespeare Invented
> > >>
> > >> https://www.litcharts.com/blog/shakespeare/words-shakespeare-invented/
> > >>
> > >> Anchovy is on the list; does this mean that fish went nameless before?
> > >>
> > >> If not, why would he have needed a new name for it?
> > >
> > > No, those are words that have not been attested outside (earlier than)
> > > Shakespeare yet. The OED, its historians have noted, were not terribly
> > > zealous at combing Early Modern English for antedatings.
> > Even so, "anchovy" shouldn't be on the list --- the OED has a citation
> > from 1582, when Shakespeare was 18, & an iffy one ("Called by the
> > Spaniards Anchouas") from 1578.
> >
> You're reminding me of something that has puzzled me for decades.
> The Portuguese word for cod is bacalhau, and the Dutch is kabeljauw.

Nowadays, but in older Dutch sources
both 'kabeljauw' and 'bakeljauw' may be found.
Oldest sources are 12th century,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

More than you want at
<https://www.jstor.org/stable/27699161?seq=3#metadata_info_tab_contents>

Jan

[Peter Moylan]

On 25/09/21 22:43, J. J. Lodder wrote:

> bil...@shaw.ca <bil...@shaw.ca> wrote:

>> You're reminding me of something that has puzzled me for decades.
>> The Portuguese word for cod is bacalhau, and the Dutch is kabeljauw.
>
> Nowadays, but in older Dutch sources
> both 'kabeljauw' and 'bakeljauw' may be found.
> Oldest sources are 12th century,

So, I guess, the same process that turns English spaghetti into basghetti.

[Ross Clark]

This one has puzzled me, too. Funnily enough, both words find their way
into the OED:

bacalao 'cod-fish, esp. dried or salted cod-fish'
< Spanish bacallao cod-fish, according to early navigators the name
used in Newfoundland or the adjacent mainland (Also in Portugues form
bacalhau.)

cabilliau, cabeliau 'cod-fish; 'cod-fish which has been salted and hung
for a few days, but not thoroughly dried'
< French cabillaud, cabliau, Dutch kabeljauw, a name used
(according to Franck) by all the coast Germans since the 14th cent.;
Middle Low German kabelaw , German kabliau , kabeljau , Swedish kabeljo,
Danish kabeljau , medieval Latin cabellauwus ( a.d. 1133 in Carpentier's
Du Cange). It has been generally regarded as a transposed form of
bakeljauw , bakkeljau , bacalao n., which is however not compatible with
the history of that word.

So...no definite answer.

[Paul Carmichael]

El Fri, 24 Sep 2021 14:03:50 +0100, Richard Heathfield escribió:

<anchovy>

> From Spanish anchova

Boquerón, last I heard.

Anchoa, once prepared.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

[Paul Carmichael]

El Sun, 26 Sep 2021 00:10:09 +1200, Ross Clark escribió:

> bacalao 'cod-fish, esp. dried or salted cod-fish'

I pulled somebody up a couple of years ago for saying "cod-fish", as
everybody knows, there's no such thing.

It turns out that's that's what they call cod in Ireland.

Weird.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

[Richard Heathfield]

On 25/09/2021 14:56, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> El Fri, 24 Sep 2021 14:03:50 +0100, Richard Heathfield escribió:
>
> <anchovy>
>
>> From Spanish anchova
>
> Boquerón, last I heard.
>
> Anchoa, once prepared.

If it's wrong, it can be fixed!

https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=anchovy&action=edit

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, September 25, 2021 at 9:59:30 AM UTC-4, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> El Sun, 26 Sep 2021 00:10:09 +1200, Ross Clark escribió:

> > bacalao 'cod-fish, esp. dried or salted cod-fish'
>
> I pulled somebody up a couple of years ago for saying "cod-fish", as
> everybody knows, there's no such thing.
>
> It turns out that's that's what they call cod in Ireland.
>
> Weird.

I suppose they fish for cod, but the catch gets turned into codfish cakes.

[Ken Blake]

On 9/24/2021 7:22 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Friday, September 24, 2021 at 7:57:20 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 25/09/21 09:30, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
>>
>> > You're reminding me of something that has puzzled me for decades. The
>> > Portuguese word for cod is bacalhau, and the Dutch is kabeljauw. They
>> > were the two great cod-fishing nations for a time, but it sounds as
>> > if one of them gave the cod a name, and the other adopted it but
>> > scrambled the consonants in the first syllable. Does anyone here
>> > know how this came about?
>
>> I don't know the answer, but I put this in the same category as
>> something else that has bothered me for years. Why are Portuguese
>> "obrigado" and Japanese "arigato" almost the same word? There does not
>> seem to have been any borrowing.
>
> Just coincidence,

Really? I've always assumed that Japanese borrowed it from the Portuguese.

How many more things do I think I know than will turn out to be false?

> like "sheriff" and "sharif",

I know that "sheriff" comes from "shire reeve," or am I wrong about that
too?

> or Hebrew "kmo" and Spanish
> and Portuguese

...and Italian

> "como", meaning "like, as".

Since I've never seen the Hebrew word "kmo," I've never had any opinions
about it.


--
Ken

[Quinn C]

* Jerry Friedman:

So it wasn't the Japanese' way of saying "thank you for tempura".

--
O tempura, o moray

[Ken Blake]

On 9/25/2021 6:59 AM, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> El Sun, 26 Sep 2021 00:10:09 +1200, Ross Clark escribió:
>
>> bacalao 'cod-fish, esp. dried or salted cod-fish'
>
> I pulled somebody up a couple of years ago for saying "cod-fish", as
> everybody knows, there's no such thing.
>
> It turns out that's that's what they call cod in Ireland.
>
> Weird.

It's always seemed odd to me that some fish sometimes get the word
"fish" appended to their names, but others don't.

And even those names with "fish" at the end don't always get it
consistently. You can say "tuna" or "tunafish," but although it might be
understood, nobody says "sword" rather than "swordfish" except fishermen
for them.

There's also "whitefish." If you called it "white," nobody would understand.

And then there's the chessplayer and Sicilian defense variation called
"Levenfish."


--
Ken

[Ken Blake]

On 9/25/2021 4:00 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 25/09/21 22:43, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> bil...@shaw.ca <bil...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>>> You're reminding me of something that has puzzled me for decades.
>>> The Portuguese word for cod is bacalhau, and the Dutch is kabeljauw.
>>
>> Nowadays, but in older Dutch sources
>> both 'kabeljauw' and 'bakeljauw' may be found.
>> Oldest sources are 12th century,
>
> So, I guess, the same process that turns English spaghetti into basghetti.

A very minor point, but I think what my cousin said when he was very
young was much closer to pissghetti.


--
Ken

[Ken Blake]

On 9/25/2021 10:43 AM, Quinn C wrote:
> * Jerry Friedman:
>
>> On Friday, September 24, 2021 at 7:57:20 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:

>>> On 25/09/21 09:30,bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
>>>
>>>> You're reminding me of something that has puzzled me for decades. The
>>>> Portuguese word for cod is bacalhau, and the Dutch is kabeljauw. They
>>>> were the two great cod-fishing nations for a time, but it sounds as
>>>> if one of them gave the cod a name, and the other adopted it but
>>>> scrambled the consonants in the first syllable. Does anyone here
>>>> know how this came about?
>>> I don't know the answer, but I put this in the same category as
>>> something else that has bothered me for years. Why are Portuguese
>>> "obrigado" and Japanese "arigato" almost the same word? There does not
>>> seem to have been any borrowing.
>> Just coincidence, like "sheriff" and "sharif", or Hebrew "kmo" and Spanish
>> and Portuguese "como", meaning "like, as".
>>
>> Language Log recently did "arigato".
>>
>> https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=52053
> So it wasn't the Japanese' way of saying "thank you for tempura".
>
> -- O tempura, o moray

When an eel bites your toes
and it lights up your nose,
that's a moray.


or did you mean "O tempura, o unagi"?


--
Ken

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, September 25, 2021 at 1:45:07 PM UTC-4, Ken Blake wrote:

> And even those names with "fish" at the end don't always get it
> consistently. You can say "tuna" or "tunafish," but although it might be

The fish is tuna, the meat can be tunafish.

The fish is salmon, the meat can be salmon steak.

> understood, nobody says "sword" rather than "swordfish" except fishermen
> for them.

The meat is swordfish steak.

> There's also "whitefish." If you called it "white," nobody would understand.

The meat is gefilte fish. "Whitefish and pike," usually.

[Quinn C]

* Ken Blake:

> On 9/25/2021 6:59 AM, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>> El Sun, 26 Sep 2021 00:10:09 +1200, Ross Clark escribió:
>>
>>> bacalao 'cod-fish, esp. dried or salted cod-fish'
>>
>> I pulled somebody up a couple of years ago for saying "cod-fish", as
>> everybody knows, there's no such thing.
>>
>> It turns out that's that's what they call cod in Ireland.
>>
>> Weird.
>
> It's always seemed odd to me that some fish sometimes get the word
> "fish" appended to their names, but others don't.
>
> And even those names with "fish" at the end don't always get it
> consistently. You can say "tuna" or "tunafish," but although it might be
> understood, nobody says "sword" rather than "swordfish" except fishermen
> for them.
>
> There's also "whitefish." If you called it "white," nobody would understand.

Right. So if you have any argument here, it has to focus on fish where
the name is quite understandable without the -fish part. So far, we've
seen one example.

--
Well, if that isn't the Quacta calling the Stifling slimy.
-- Boba Fett

[Peter Moylan]

On 26/09/21 00:59, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> El Sun, 26 Sep 2021 00:10:09 +1200, Ross Clark escribió:
>
>> bacalao 'cod-fish, esp. dried or salted cod-fish'
>
> I pulled somebody up a couple of years ago for saying "cod-fish", as
> everybody knows, there's no such thing.
>
> It turns out that's that's what they call cod in Ireland.
>
> Weird.

Similarly, we never say "tuna fish" in AusE. It's always tuna. The first
time I heard "tuna fish" it sounded just as weird as "sparrow bird".

[Ken Blake]

On 9/25/2021 3:14 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 26/09/21 00:59, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>> El Sun, 26 Sep 2021 00:10:09 +1200, Ross Clark escribió:
>>
>>> bacalao 'cod-fish, esp. dried or salted cod-fish'
>>
>> I pulled somebody up a couple of years ago for saying "cod-fish", as
>> everybody knows, there's no such thing.
>>
>> It turns out that's that's what they call cod in Ireland.
>>
>> Weird.
>
> Similarly, we never say "tuna fish" in AusE. It's always tuna. The first
> time I heard "tuna fish" it sounded just as weird as "sparrow bird".

I might be wrong, but I think that in the US, it's always one word
"tunafish." "Tuna fish" looks weird to me.



Do you say "hummingbird'?

--
Ken

[Dingbat]

You Can Tune a Piano, but You Can't Tuna Fish
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Can_Tune_a_Piano,_but_You_Can%27t_Tuna_Fish

[bil...@shaw.ca]

On Saturday, September 25, 2021 at 4:14:11 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:

> On 26/09/21 00:59, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> > El Sun, 26 Sep 2021 00:10:09 +1200, Ross Clark escribió:
> >
> >> bacalao 'cod-fish, esp. dried or salted cod-fish'
> >
> > I pulled somebody up a couple of years ago for saying "cod-fish", as
> > everybody knows, there's no such thing.

Of course there is. The fish exists, and what people call it varies
with time and place. Claiming there is no such thing as what
other people call it is one of the dumber ways to deal with that.

bill

[bil...@shaw.ca]

On Saturday, September 25, 2021 at 9:10:53 PM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:

> You Can Tune a Piano, but You Can't Tuna Fish
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Can_Tune_a_Piano,_but_You_Can%27t_Tuna_Fish

It's true that tuna fish can't can-can, having no legs, but you can can tuna fish.

bill

[CDB]

On 9/26/2021 1:55 AM, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
> Dingbat wrote:

>> You Can Tune a Piano, but You Can't Tuna Fish
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Can_Tune_a_Piano,_but_You_Can%27t_Tuna_Fish
>
>>
> It's true that tuna fish can't can-can, having no legs, but you can
> can tuna fish.

A canner exceedingly canny
One morning remarked to his granny,
"A canner can can
Anything that he can,
But a canner can't can a can, can he?"

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sat, 25 Sep 2021 10:34:20 -0700, Ken Blake <k...@invalidemail.com>
wrote:

>On 9/24/2021 7:22 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On Friday, September 24, 2021 at 7:57:20 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> On 25/09/21 09:30, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
>>>
>>> > You're reminding me of something that has puzzled me for decades. The
>>> > Portuguese word for cod is bacalhau, and the Dutch is kabeljauw. They
>>> > were the two great cod-fishing nations for a time, but it sounds as
>>> > if one of them gave the cod a name, and the other adopted it but
>>> > scrambled the consonants in the first syllable. Does anyone here
>>> > know how this came about?
>>
>>> I don't know the answer, but I put this in the same category as
>>> something else that has bothered me for years. Why are Portuguese
>>> "obrigado" and Japanese "arigato" almost the same word? There does not
>>> seem to have been any borrowing.
>>
>> Just coincidence,
>
>
>
>Really? I've always assumed that Japanese borrowed it from the Portuguese.
>
>How many more things do I think I know than will turn out to be false?
>
>
> > like "sheriff" and "sharif",
>
>
>I know that "sheriff" comes from "shire reeve," or am I wrong about that
>too?
>

OED:

Etymology: Old English scírgeréfa , < scír shire n. + geréfa reeve
n.1 The etymological form shire-reeve (shire-reeve n. at shire n.
Compounds 2) has occasionally been used by legal antiquaries from
the 16th cent. downwards.
As the Old English scír had, in addition to its specific sense, the
general sense of ‘district under a person's administration,
province’, scírgeréfa had also a wider meaning, e.g. when the bishop
is called ‘Christ's scírgerefa ’.

>
> > or Hebrew "kmo" and Spanish
> > and Portuguese
>
>...and Italian
>
> > "como", meaning "like, as".
>
>
>Since I've never seen the Hebrew word "kmo," I've never had any opinions
>about it.

--

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Jerry Friedman]

...

I wonder whether "Christ's sheriff" could be repopularized.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Ken Blake]

The word "scírgeréfa" is something like the Italian word for sheriff,
"sceriffa." The only reason I know that word is that I once ate in a
restaurant by that name in Capri.

Did Italian get it from the English? Perhaps, but I don't know.



--
Ken

[Ken Blake]

That reminds me that once, when I was asked how big a tunafish was, I
replied "seven ounces."


--
Ken

[Dingbat]

An example of a district under a person's administration would be a
bishopric, not a bishop. Was a bishopric called 'Christ's scirgerefa'?

[Ken Blake]

As I understand it, and as you said, a bishopric is a district, not a
person. Calling someone a bishopric sounds very insulting to my ear.


--
Ken

[Quinn C]

* Ken Blake:

As far as my Google-fu goes, it seems that "sceriffo" is used to denote
the sheriff in English-speaking countries, not any local official. Also,
historically, sceriffo/sceriffa was used for Arab nobles, which would
these days be written sharif/sharifa. I imagine the restaurant name was
using the latter sense.

--
- You all packed?
- Vagabond shoes and all. And pepper spray. For if we run into
that Trump character.
-- Veronica Mars, S02E22 (2006)

[Jerry Friedman]

On Sunday, September 26, 2021 at 1:06:20 PM UTC-6, Dingbat wrote:
> On Sunday, September 26, 2021 at 9:25:06 AM UTC-7, PeterWD wrote:
> > On Sat, 25 Sep 2021 10:34:20 -0700, Ken Blake <k...@invalidemail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >On 9/24/2021 7:22 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:

...

> > >> Just coincidence,
...

> > > > like "sheriff" and "sharif",
> > >
> > >
> > >I know that "sheriff" comes from "shire reeve," or am I wrong about that
> > >too?
> > >
> > OED:
> >
> > Etymology: Old English scírgeréfa , < scír shire n. + geréfa reeve
> > n.1 The etymological form shire-reeve (shire-reeve n. at shire n.
> > Compounds 2) has occasionally been used by legal antiquaries from
> > the 16th cent. downwards.

> > As the Old English scír had, in addition to its specific sense, the
> > general sense of ‘district under a person's administration,
> > province’, scírgeréfa had also a wider meaning, e.g. when the bishop
> > is called ‘Christ's scírgerefa ’.
> >
> >
> An example of a district under a person's administration would be a
> bishopric, not a bishop. Was a bishopric called 'Christ's scirgerefa'?

The word for district was scír, not scírgerefa.

--
Jerry Friedman

[occam]

On 24/09/2021 14:49, Dingbat wrote:
> The 420 Words That Shakespeare Invented
>
> https://www.litcharts.com/blog/shakespeare/words-shakespeare-invented/
>
> Anchovy is on the list; does this mean that fish went nameless before?
>
> If not, why would he have needed a new name for it?
>

For the same reason he needed the new verbs 'to unsex' and 'to unhappy'.
A consummate wordsmith enlarging his toolkit?

[Adam Funk]

"There's no such thing as a PIN number!"


--
they're OK, the last days of May

[Adam Funk]

Via spaghetti westerns?


--
World War III has been happening for years now. Everyone’s
just too busy watching the commercials to notice.
--Jerry Cornelius

[Adam Funk]

So make a stand for your man, honey
Try to can the can

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYoogY-UGio>


--
Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided
missiles and misguided men. ---Martin Luther King, Jr.

[CDB]

Unchove my pizza here, and fill it all
chock-full of veg from centre unto rim;
And let proud Caesar boast the fishies which
Do in his salad swim - I'll none of him.

[CDB]

On 9/26/2021 3:06 PM, Dingbat wrote:
> PeterWD wrote:
>> Ken Blake <k...@invalidemail.com> wrote:
>>> Jerry Friedman wrote:

In line with what Peter posted (still just above), a bishopric would be
"Christes scir".

[...]

[Peter T. Daniels]

?? Then how are you going to work the ATM machine?

[occam]

I like 'unchove'. If you look at the full list (and you accept the
provenance of the words) you will notice that "un" -words appear to be
quite common inversions attributed as Shakespeare 'inventions'.

Hence we have:

- (to) unmuzzle
- unbosom
- uncurl
- undervalue (?)
- undress
- unfool
- unhappy
- unsex
- unaccommodated
- unappeased
- unchanging
- unclaimed
- unearthy
- uneducated
- unfrequented
- ungoverned
- ungrown (the mind boggles)
- unhelpful
- unhidden
- unlicensed
- unmitigated
- unmusical
- unpolluted
- unpublished
- unquestionable
- unquestioned
- unreal
- unrivalled
- unscarred
- unscratched
- unsolicited
- unsullied
- unswayed
- untutored
- unvarnished
- unwillingness


...and not forgetting "unchovied"


Do you think Shakespeare was a contrarian at heart?

[Adam Funk]

Same way you find a book even though there's no such thing as an ISBN
number, I guess.


--
In the fall when plants return, by harvest time, she knows the score,
ripe and ready to the eye, but rotten somehow to the core.

[CDB]

On 9/27/2021 10:04 AM, occam wrote:

You can't pin him down; there's always more.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Using the PIN. Or if you prefer, using the PI number.

[Paul Carmichael]

Sometimes I forget that people here can take things rather seriously.

My pets are now wongtongchipperclogs. And don't tell me there's no such
thing just because you call them cats.


--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

[Ken Blake]

3.1415926....?


--
Ken

[Ken Blake]

I've never heard of wongtongchipperclogs, but I like wongtong soup.

--
Ken

[Richard Heathfield]

That's really not good enough. Even if you stretch it to twenty
decimals: 3.14159265358979323846 it's *still* not good enough. Using
twenty decimals and calculating the circumference of the observable
universe from its radius, you'll be an entire Planet Earth Diameter out.
Downright sloppy, I call it.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[Jerry Friedman]

On Monday, September 27, 2021 at 10:58:59 AM UTC-6, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 27/09/2021 17:41, Ken Blake wrote:
> > On 9/27/2021 9:23 AM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> >> On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 06:42:53 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Monday, September 27, 2021 at 5:45:06 AM UTC-4, Adam Funk wrote:

...

> >>>> "There's no such thing as a PIN number!"
> >>>
> >>> ?? Then how are you going to work the ATM machine?
> >>
> >> Using the PIN. Or if you prefer, using the PI number.
> >
> > 3.1415926....?

> That's really not good enough. Even if you stretch it to twenty
> decimals: 3.14159265358979323846 it's *still* not good enough. Using
> twenty decimals and calculating the circumference of the observable
> universe from its radius, you'll be an entire Planet Earth Diameter out.
> Downright sloppy, I call it.

Like your assumption that the observable universe is perfectly flat.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Richard Heathfield]

No, it's ball-shaped. I know that, because Wikipedia says so, which
presumably makes it a truncated icosahedron.

[Sam Plusnet]

Give it a week or so, and someone will be selling Wongtong Clipper Clogs
on Amazon.

(I haven't checked to see if they are already on sale)

[Jerry Friedman]

On Monday, September 27, 2021 at 12:13:49 PM UTC-6, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 27/09/2021 18:36, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Monday, September 27, 2021 at 10:58:59 AM UTC-6, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> >> On 27/09/2021 17:41, Ken Blake wrote:
> >>> On 9/27/2021 9:23 AM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> >>>> On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 06:42:53 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> >>>> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Monday, September 27, 2021 at 5:45:06 AM UTC-4, Adam Funk wrote:
> > ...
> >
> >>>>>> "There's no such thing as a PIN number!"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ?? Then how are you going to work the ATM machine?
> >>>>
> >>>> Using the PIN. Or if you prefer, using the PI number.
> >>>
> >>> 3.1415926....?
> >
> >> That's really not good enough. Even if you stretch it to twenty
> >> decimals: 3.14159265358979323846 it's *still* not good enough. Using
> >> twenty decimals and calculating the circumference of the observable
> >> universe from its radius, you'll be an entire Planet Earth Diameter out.
> >> Downright sloppy, I call it.
> >
> > Like your assumption that the observable universe is perfectly flat.

> No, it's ball-shaped. I know that, because Wikipedia says so, which
> presumably makes it a truncated icosahedron.

Well, if you truncate it right...

But is it a ball in flat spacetime or curved spacetime? This article says
the universe is known to be flat only, and I mean *only*, to 99.75%
precision. Talk about sloppy!

--
Jerry Friedman

[Richard Heathfield]

It absolutely depends how you kick it. Square on, Newtonian mechanics
straight into the defensive wall. Slightly off centre, and you can bend
it like Einstein.

> This article says
> the universe is known to be flat only, and I mean *only*, to 99.75%
> precision. Talk about sloppy!

;-)

[Quinn C]

* Ken Blake:

You eat cats??

But you said "soup", so maybe you meant catsup?

I'll stay with wonton soup.

--
I don't see people ... as having a right to be idiots. It's
just impractical to try to stop them, unless they're hurting
somebody. -- Vicereine Cordelia
in L. McMaster Bujold, Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen

[Ken Blake]

On 9/27/2021 2:55 PM, Quinn C wrote:
> * Ken Blake:
>
>> On 9/27/2021 9:26 AM, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>> El Sat, 25 Sep 2021 22:51:37 -0700, bil...@shaw.ca escribió:
>>>
>>>> On Saturday, September 25, 2021 at 4:14:11 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>> On 26/09/21 00:59, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>>>> > El Sun, 26 Sep 2021 00:10:09 +1200, Ross Clark escribió:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> bacalao 'cod-fish, esp. dried or salted cod-fish'
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I pulled somebody up a couple of years ago for saying "cod-fish", as
>>>>> > everybody knows, there's no such thing.
>>>>
>>>> Of course there is. The fish exists, and what people call it varies with
>>>> time and place. Claiming there is no such thing as what other people
>>>> call it is one of the dumber ways to deal with that.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Sometimes I forget that people here can take things rather seriously.
>>>
>>> My pets are now wongtongchipperclogs. And don't tell me there's no such
>>> thing just because you call them cats.
>>
>> I've never heard of wongtongchipperclogs, but I like wongtong soup.
>
> You eat cats??
>
> But you said "soup", so maybe you meant catsup?
>
> I'll stay with wonton soup.

Some say wonton and some say wongtong.

Let's call the whole thing off.


--
Ken

[Peter Moylan]

I've tried that. The machine wouldn't let me go past 3.14.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Adam Funk]

On 2021-09-27, Quinn C wrote:

> * Ken Blake:
>
>> On 9/27/2021 9:26 AM, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>> El Sat, 25 Sep 2021 22:51:37 -0700, bil...@shaw.ca escribió:
>>>
>>>> On Saturday, September 25, 2021 at 4:14:11 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>> On 26/09/21 00:59, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>>>> > El Sun, 26 Sep 2021 00:10:09 +1200, Ross Clark escribió:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> bacalao 'cod-fish, esp. dried or salted cod-fish'
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I pulled somebody up a couple of years ago for saying "cod-fish", as
>>>>> > everybody knows, there's no such thing.
>>>>
>>>> Of course there is. The fish exists, and what people call it varies with
>>>> time and place. Claiming there is no such thing as what other people
>>>> call it is one of the dumber ways to deal with that.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Sometimes I forget that people here can take things rather seriously.
>>>
>>> My pets are now wongtongchipperclogs. And don't tell me there's no such
>>> thing just because you call them cats.
>>
>> I've never heard of wongtongchipperclogs, but I like wongtong soup.
>
> You eat cats??
>
> But you said "soup", so maybe you meant catsup?
>
> I'll stay with wonton soup.

Wanton soup, OTOH, could lead you astray.


--
We got music in our solar system
We're space truckin' round the stars

[Quinn C]

* Adam Funk:

[cross-thread alert]

Your wanton soup is other people's needon soup, y'know!

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

[Adam Funk]

Udon make this stuff up, do u?


--
You planned to leave me cold
But you'll never get your wish
On the 24th of May
I'll gather up your reins