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Off-color as a racial slur?
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Kurt Schmidt
Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to
I wonder if anyone has heard about "off-color" (double f, as in "off-color
joke", not the more common "of color" as "person of color") as being a
common racial slur or even racially-related phrase. I was told (indeed,
chastized) that both single f (of color)and double f (off color) are common
racially negative phrases, but I only know about the single f phrase (of
color) being related to race. I wonder if this is a case of mistaken
identity as it were. I could not find any racially related information on
off-color on various English language sites. If you do k now about
"off-color" being commonly understood to be ralated to racial slurs, then
please be sokind as to provide the reference.
joke", not the more common "of color" as "person of color") as being a
common racial slur or even racially-related phrase. I was told (indeed,
chastized) that both single f (of color)and double f (off color) are common
racially negative phrases, but I only know about the single f phrase (of
color) being related to race. I wonder if this is a case of mistaken
identity as it were. I could not find any racially related information on
off-color on various English language sites. If you do k now about
"off-color" being commonly understood to be ralated to racial slurs, then
please be sokind as to provide the reference.
Thanks in adavance!
Kurt
--
1. All statements are my private opinions. All statements are my
responsibility and my employer may or may not share these opinions.
2. To reply by email you must remove the fruity part from my email address,
lest our mass marketing friends get a hold of me!
Richard Fontana
Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to
On Fri, 30 Jul 1999 19:20:37 GMT, Kurt Schmidt <KurtS...@point.com> wrote:
>I wonder if anyone has heard about "off-color" (double f, as in "off-color
>joke", not the more common "of color" as "person of color") as being a
>common racial slur or even racially-related phrase. I was told (indeed,
>chastized) that both single f (of color)and double f (off color) are common
>racially negative phrases, but I only know about the single f phrase (of
>color) being related to race. I wonder if this is a case of mistaken
>identity as it were. I could not find any racially related information on
>off-color on various English language sites. If you do k now about
>"off-color" being commonly understood to be ralated to racial slurs, then
>please be sokind as to provide the reference.
>I wonder if anyone has heard about "off-color" (double f, as in "off-color
>joke", not the more common "of color" as "person of color") as being a
>common racial slur or even racially-related phrase. I was told (indeed,
>chastized) that both single f (of color)and double f (off color) are common
>racially negative phrases, but I only know about the single f phrase (of
>color) being related to race. I wonder if this is a case of mistaken
>identity as it were. I could not find any racially related information on
>off-color on various English language sites. If you do k now about
>"off-color" being commonly understood to be ralated to racial slurs, then
>please be sokind as to provide the reference.
You have been misinformed on both counts, at least with respect to
contemporary American English. Neither of these phrases is considered
racially "negative", and one of them, "off color", is a very common phrase
which has nothing to do with race and I would be shocked if it ever has.
"Of color" (generally used in "people of color") is actually not itself a
racially negative phrase; it is in fact generally most often used by
people who are strong opponents and likely victims of racism, and is (I think)
thought to be an inclusive term which embraces various historically
disriminated-against racial minorities. Do not confuse "of color" with
"colored", which in the United States was at one time a standard "polite"
term (used by those both for and against racial segregation) for
African-Americans.
Best regards --
Richard Fontana
Trevor Baca
Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to
Richard Fontana <re...@cunix.columbia.edu> wrote in message
news:slrn7q3vsm...@localhost.localdomain...
I agree with Richard on both counts.
To help fill in Kurt's understanding, I might add that "off-color" means
"socially unacceptable" or "in bad taste" while "of color" (note the lack of
hypen) means "not white [in terms of race]".
Both phrases are tricky to use.
An off-color joke is one that is simply inappropriate. For example, one
with sexual innuendo, racial implications, or just general social
impropriety (like a joke about the dead being made at a funeral). The
phrase is mostly used to mean "sexually or racially offensive", so the
racial bit definitely is a part of implication, but the primary meaning of
the phrase focuses on impropriety.
Use off-color to describe something that is racially or sexually offensive
to you--usually a comment or a joke. You won't run into trouble using this
phrase; it is acceptable and in wide usage.
Be more careful using "of color". The phrase *is*, as Richard said, many
times used by blacks or Hispanics in the US to mean "non-white". However,
this doesn't sanctify the phrase for use by white people as it sounds a
little antiquated in certain parts of the US (in Austin, Texas, for example,
from where I'm writing). The fact a speaker is lumping all "non-white"
people together in the first place is somewhat suspect, and educated
speakers in my part of the country tend to avoid the phrase because of that.
("People of color" is something your grandmother might have said in the
1970s to thinly veil her racism; even though blacks now use it without that
meaning).
Please understand that Richard's usage of "of color" almost certainly is
correct for his region of the US, but not necessarily so elsewhere in the
country. Foreign speakers may want to err on the side of caution and avoid
the phrase all together.
HTH,
Trevor.
Michael Cargal
Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to
re...@cunix.columbia.edu (Richard Fontana) wrote:
>"Of color" (generally used in "people of color") is actually not itself a
>racially negative phrase; it is in fact generally most often used by
>people who are strong opponents and likely victims of racism, and is (I think)
>thought to be an inclusive term which embraces various historically
>disriminated-against racial minorities.
There are people of African descent in the US who assert that "people
of color" should be used only to describe Africans and people of
African descent. I think this is political rather than linguistic, an
attempt to make the discussion of racism or oppression center on
themselves rather than including, for example, Asians.
--
Michael Cargal car...@cts.com
Joseph C Fineman
Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to
I agree with the other responders, and would only add that I perceive
"off color" (said of a joke etc.) as a euphemistic metaphor. The
literal use of the phrase is as in "The part that had been repaired
was off color", i.e., the painter didn't manage to match the original
exactly. So also "off white" = a color just distinguishable from
white. As a metaphor, one would expect "off color" to mean _slightly_
inappropriate, and it is sometimes so used, but it is often a
euphemism for some stronger word such as dirty or obscene.
"off color" (said of a joke etc.) as a euphemistic metaphor. The
literal use of the phrase is as in "The part that had been repaired
was off color", i.e., the painter didn't manage to match the original
exactly. So also "off white" = a color just distinguishable from
white. As a metaphor, one would expect "off color" to mean _slightly_
inappropriate, and it is sometimes so used, but it is often a
euphemism for some stronger word such as dirty or obscene.
--- Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
||: For axolotls & humans growing up is a desperate remedy. :||
Evan Kirshenbaum
Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to
j...@world.std.com (Joseph C Fineman) writes:
> I agree with the other responders, and would only add that I perceive
> "off color" (said of a joke etc.) as a euphemistic metaphor. The
> literal use of the phrase is as in "The part that had been repaired
> was off color", i.e., the painter didn't manage to match the original
> exactly. So also "off white" = a color just distinguishable from
> white. As a metaphor, one would expect "off color" to mean _slightly_
> inappropriate, and it is sometimes so used, but it is often a
> euphemism for some stronger word such as dirty or obscene.
Does anybody have a good explanation why material that is sufficiently
"off color" is specifically described as "blue"?
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |If a bus station is where a bus
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |stops, and a train station is where
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |a train stops, what does that say
|about a workstation?
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Jack Applin
Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to
Evan Kirshenbaum <ev...@garrett.hpl.hp.com> wrote:
> Does anybody have a good explanation why material that is sufficiently
> "off color" is specifically described as "blue"?
I assume that "blue" comes from "blue laws", laws controlling things like
pornography or behavior on Sundays. As I recall, they were written on blue
paper in the early American colonies in New England. True?
-Jack Applin
neu...@verinet.com
http://www.verinet.com/~neutron/
Evan Kirshenbaum
Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to
Jack Applin <neu...@bamboo.verinet.com> writes:
> Evan Kirshenbaum <ev...@garrett.hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>
> > Does anybody have a good explanation why material that is
> > sufficiently "off color" is specifically described as "blue"?
>
> I assume that "blue" comes from "blue laws", laws controlling things
> like pornography or behavior on Sundays.
Oh, yeah. Duh. So is it just coincidence that both phrases are color
metaphors or did "off-color" come from "blue"? If not, what color is
an "off-color" remark "off" of? (I would guess white for "purity" and
"innocence".)
> As I recall, they were written on blue paper in the early American
> colonies in New England. True?
Apparently so, at least in some cases.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |A handgun is like a Lawyer. You
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |don't want it lying around where
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |the children might be exposed to
|it, but when you need one, you need
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |it RIGHT NOW, and nothing else will
(650)857-7572 |do.
| Bill McNutt
Robert M. Wilson
Jul 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/30/99
to
Jack Applin wrote in message <4Dqo3.41$VPg.17...@news.frii.net>...
>Evan Kirshenbaum <ev...@garrett.hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>
>> Does anybody have a good explanation why material that is sufficiently
>> "off color" is specifically described as "blue"?
>
>I assume that "blue" comes from "blue laws", laws controlling things like
>paper in the early American colonies in New England. True?
It may come from "blue laws", but 'blue paper' being the origin of that
phrase is speculative.
One suggested origin is that in earlier days, when a dancer went into the
most revealing part of her act, the lights were turned to blue.
Another, but unlikely, suggestion is that blue is the colour of burning
brimstone.
It may be connected to *bibliotheque bleu* = indecent books.
Another theory is that prostitutes wore blue dresses.
(I thought this had been discussed before?)
Iskandar Baharuddin
Jul 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/31/99
to
Joseph C Fineman wrote:
>
> I agree with the other responders, and would only add that I perceive
> "off color" (said of a joke etc.) as a euphemistic metaphor. The
> literal use of the phrase is as in "The part that had been repaired
> was off color", i.e., the painter didn't manage to match the original
> exactly. So also "off white" = a color just distinguishable from
> white. As a metaphor, one would expect "off color" to mean _slightly_
> inappropriate, and it is sometimes so used, but it is often a
> euphemism for some stronger word such as dirty or obscene.
>
>
> I agree with the other responders, and would only add that I perceive
> "off color" (said of a joke etc.) as a euphemistic metaphor. The
> literal use of the phrase is as in "The part that had been repaired
> was off color", i.e., the painter didn't manage to match the original
> exactly. So also "off white" = a color just distinguishable from
> white. As a metaphor, one would expect "off color" to mean _slightly_
> inappropriate, and it is sometimes so used, but it is often a
> euphemism for some stronger word such as dirty or obscene.
>
> --- Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
>
> ||: For axolotls & humans growing up is a desperate remedy. :||
>
> ||: For axolotls & humans growing up is a desperate remedy. :||
Off-colour can also mean feeling a bit crook (sick), equivalent
to being 'a bit green about the gills'.
--
Salaam & Shalom
Izzy
"So I cheered up, and sure enough, things got worse..."
from "My Struggle", by Alfred E Neuman
Richard Fontana
Jul 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/31/99
to
On Fri, 30 Jul 1999 23:33:20 GMT, Jack Applin <neu...@bamboo.verinet.com>
wrote:
>Evan Kirshenbaum <ev...@garrett.hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>
>> Does anybody have a good explanation why material that is sufficiently
>> "off color" is specifically described as "blue"?
>
>I assume that "blue" comes from "blue laws", laws controlling things like
>pornography or behavior on Sundays. As I recall, they were written on blue
>paper in the early American colonies in New England. True?
wrote:
>Evan Kirshenbaum <ev...@garrett.hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>
>> Does anybody have a good explanation why material that is sufficiently
>> "off color" is specifically described as "blue"?
>
>I assume that "blue" comes from "blue laws", laws controlling things like
>pornography or behavior on Sundays. As I recall, they were written on blue
>paper in the early American colonies in New England. True?
Ah, but, if so, then why were they written on blue paper?
JNugent
Jul 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/31/99
to
Joseph C Fineman wrote in message ...
>I agree with the other responders, and would only add that I perceive
>"off color" (said of a joke etc.) as a euphemistic metaphor. The
>literal use of the phrase is as in "The part that had been repaired
>was off color", i.e., the painter didn't manage to match the original
>exactly. So also "off white" = a color just distinguishable from
>white. As a metaphor, one would expect "off color" to mean _slightly_
>inappropriate, and it is sometimes so used, but it is often a
>euphemism for some stronger word such as dirty or obscene.
It is actually derived from the pallor of a person who is feeling (and
looking) ill. The parallel uses (meaning "not in full working order" or "not
up to standard") are obvious linguistic spin-offs from the "not looking
well" usage.
Izzy said much the same thing in his contribution.
JNugent
Jul 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/31/99
to
Evan Kirshenbaum wrote in message ...
>Does anybody have a good explanation why material that is sufficiently
>"off color" is specifically described as "blue"?
Stage- and film-script censors traditionally used a blue pencil to indicate
passages up with which they would not put.
Bob Lipton
Jul 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/31/99
to JNugent
Editors in general used to use blue pencils.
Bob
Ralph Jones
Jul 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/31/99
to
Michael Cargal wrote:
>
> There are people of African descent in the US who assert that "people
> of color" should be used only to describe Africans and people of
> African descent. I think this is political rather than linguistic, an
> attempt to make the discussion of racism or oppression center on
> themselves rather than including, for example, Asians.
>
> There are people of African descent in the US who assert that "people
> of color" should be used only to describe Africans and people of
> African descent. I think this is political rather than linguistic, an
> attempt to make the discussion of racism or oppression center on
> themselves rather than including, for example, Asians.
That's interesting. Could you be more specific about the people who make
this assertion?
Are they organized? Do you know them personally?
--
I explore the esoteric.
You dabble in the obscure.
He wallows in trivia.
- rmj http://www.hal-pc.org/~rmjones
Simon Hosie
Aug 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/1/99
to
Kurt Schmidt:
> I wonder if anyone has heard about "off-color" (double f, as in "off-color
> joke", not the more common "of color" as "person of color") as being a
> common racial slur or even racially-related phrase.
> I wonder if anyone has heard about "off-color" (double f, as in "off-color
> joke", not the more common "of color" as "person of color") as being a
> common racial slur or even racially-related phrase.
I hear "off colour" quite often. Usually to mean "ill", otherwise to mean
"not polite" or "uncharacteristic".
--
# Please try to quote no more than you need to show the context of your post.
# If you also quote my .Sig then I hate you and I hope you get hiccups.
#
# email: Gumboot, at an ISP named Clear.Net, in New Zealand.
Nancy Lebovitz
Aug 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/2/99
to
In article <9Wmo3.293$CW3....@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>,
Kurt Schmidt <KurtS...@point.com> wrote:
>I wonder if anyone has heard about "off-color" (double f, as in "off-color
>joke", not the more common "of color" as "person of color") as being a
little too sexually explicit for some audience, and is a little out-
dated.
Kurt Schmidt <KurtS...@point.com> wrote:
>I wonder if anyone has heard about "off-color" (double f, as in "off-color
>joke", not the more common "of color" as "person of color") as being a
>common racial slur or even racially-related phrase. I was told (indeed,
>chastized) that both single f (of color)and double f (off color) are common
>racially negative phrases, but I only know about the single f phrase (of
>color) being related to race. I wonder if this is a case of mistaken
>identity as it were. I could not find any racially related information on
>off-color on various English language sites. If you do k now about
>"off-color" being commonly understood to be ralated to racial slurs, then
>please be sokind as to provide the reference.
>
In my experience, "off-color" is used to refer to jokes that are a>chastized) that both single f (of color)and double f (off color) are common
>racially negative phrases, but I only know about the single f phrase (of
>color) being related to race. I wonder if this is a case of mistaken
>identity as it were. I could not find any racially related information on
>off-color on various English language sites. If you do k now about
>"off-color" being commonly understood to be ralated to racial slurs, then
>please be sokind as to provide the reference.
>
little too sexually explicit for some audience, and is a little out-
dated.
"Of color" is a way of referring to people who aren't white while
not being as negative as "non-white".
I've never heard of "off-color" being used as a racial slur.
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com
Calligraphic button catalogue available by email!
Sara Rozycki
Aug 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/2/99
to
----------
In article <7o4vvg$g...@netaxs.com>, na...@unix3.netaxs.com (Nancy Lebovitz)
wrote:
In article <7o4vvg$g...@netaxs.com>, na...@unix3.netaxs.com (Nancy Lebovitz)
wrote:
"Off-color" material used to also be referred to as "blue." Should those
people of a blue ethnicity be offended?
In addition "People of color" and "Women of color" have become common
marketing terms for selling clothing and cosmetics. I strongly suspect that
not only is the term "of color" is not considered patently offensive, it is
generally considered to be a positive way of saying "Asian, Latino, Native
American, African-American, or any ethnic group that doesn't consider itself
"white" by American cultural standards. It would be difficult to sell
makeup formulated for women of color if you would offend women of color by
using the term. Realize that the opposite of "of color" could just as
easily be "lacking color."
Sara Rozycki
LaDana Edwards
Oct 8, 2020, 2:10:20 PM10/8/20
to
On Friday, July 30, 1999 at 9:00:00 AM UTC+2, Kurt Schmidt wrote:
> I wonder if anyone has heard about "off-color" (double f, as in "off-color
> joke", not the more common "of color" as "person of color") as being a
> common racial slur or even racially-related phrase. I was told (indeed,
> chastized) that both single f (of color)and double f (off color) are common
> racially negative phrases, but I only know about the single f phrase (of
> color) being related to race. I wonder if this is a case of mistaken
> identity as it were. I could not find any racially related information on
> off-color on various English language sites. If you do k now about
> "off-color" being commonly understood to be ralated to racial slurs, then
> please be sokind as to provide the reference.
> I wonder if anyone has heard about "off-color" (double f, as in "off-color
> joke", not the more common "of color" as "person of color") as being a
> common racial slur or even racially-related phrase. I was told (indeed,
> chastized) that both single f (of color)and double f (off color) are common
> racially negative phrases, but I only know about the single f phrase (of
> color) being related to race. I wonder if this is a case of mistaken
> identity as it were. I could not find any racially related information on
> off-color on various English language sites. If you do k now about
> "off-color" being commonly understood to be ralated to racial slurs, then
> please be sokind as to provide the reference.
> Thanks in adavance!
> Kurt
> --
> 1. All statements are my private opinions. All statements are my
> responsibility and my employer may or may not share these opinions.
> 2. To reply by email you must remove the fruity part from my email address,
> lest our mass marketing friends get a hold of me!
I am wondering the same thing. i am researching the term, but I only found your question. so there are two of us looking for an answer. The term is useful, but I don't want to use it if it offends.
> Kurt
> --
> 1. All statements are my private opinions. All statements are my
> responsibility and my employer may or may not share these opinions.
> 2. To reply by email you must remove the fruity part from my email address,
> lest our mass marketing friends get a hold of me!
Jerry Friedman
Oct 8, 2020, 2:40:29 PM10/8/20
to
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Oct 8, 2020, 2:42:20 PM10/8/20
to
not look back at what people said in 1999?
> The term is useful, but I don't want to use it if it offends.
athel
Ken Blake
Oct 8, 2020, 5:23:30 PM10/8/20
to
offensive.
--
Ken
Quinn C
Oct 9, 2020, 1:42:27 AM10/9/20
to
* Ken Blake:
> On 10/8/2020 11:40 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On Thursday, October 8, 2020 at 12:10:20 PM UTC-6, LaDana Edwards wrote:
>>> On Friday, July 30, 1999 at 9:00:00 AM UTC+2, Kurt Schmidt wrote:
>>> > I wonder if anyone has heard about "off-color" (double f, as in "off-color
>>> > joke", not the more common "of color" as "person of color") as being a
>>> > common racial slur or even racially-related phrase. [...]
is offensive?
--
If this guy wants to fight with weapons, I've got it covered
from A to Z. From axe to... zee other axe.
-- Buffy s05e03
> On 10/8/2020 11:40 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On Thursday, October 8, 2020 at 12:10:20 PM UTC-6, LaDana Edwards wrote:
>>> On Friday, July 30, 1999 at 9:00:00 AM UTC+2, Kurt Schmidt wrote:
>>> > I wonder if anyone has heard about "off-color" (double f, as in "off-color
>>> > joke", not the more common "of color" as "person of color") as being a
>>> I am wondering the same thing. i am researching the term, but I only
>>> found your question. so there are two of us looking for an answer.
>>> The term is useful, but I don't want to use it if it offends.
>>
>> I've never heard any claim that "off-color" is offensive.
>
> Nor have I, but there are certainly those who find off-color jokes
> offensive.
Isn't it rather that "off-color" is another way of stating that a joke
>>> found your question. so there are two of us looking for an answer.
>>> The term is useful, but I don't want to use it if it offends.
>>
>> I've never heard any claim that "off-color" is offensive.
>
> Nor have I, but there are certainly those who find off-color jokes
> offensive.
is offensive?
--
If this guy wants to fight with weapons, I've got it covered
from A to Z. From axe to... zee other axe.
-- Buffy s05e03
Lewis
Oct 9, 2020, 6:58:56 AM10/9/20
to
being offended, so much so that when someones says "that phrase is
offensive because it used to mean ____" you need to do some research to
find out if that is really true.
For example, I have had to look up "sold down the river" Yes, it does
refer to the slave trade, but since it means 'a betrayal' it still seems
a little odd that people object to it) and "cake walk" (also racist in
origin) after being burned on picnic (nothing at all to do with anything
offensive at all).
That said, you cannot use niggard or niggardly, at least in the US,
because the educational standards are so low that people will simply
assume it is racist and feel self-righteously vindicated when they burn
you at the stake.
--
Nothing is impossible for those who don't have to do it.
HVS
Oct 9, 2020, 7:08:39 AM10/9/20
to
On 09 Oct 2020, Lewis wrote
"Burned on picnic" is an entirely new expression for me (and googling
for the meaning didn't help).
What does it mean?
--
Cheers, Harvey
for the meaning didn't help).
What does it mean?
--
Cheers, Harvey
Madhu
Oct 9, 2020, 7:45:25 AM10/9/20
to
* Ken Blake <hu9eac...@mid.individual.net> :
Wrote on Thu, 8 Oct 2020 14:23:23 -0700:
Most of the free-software projects I'm seeing have renamed their code
for "Blacklists" and "Whitelists" because of the offense they give.
I'm surprised the physics community isn't so woke as the software
community and still keep going on with black holes and continue giving
offense to black people (with the negative connotations of sucking up
light)
Wrote on Thu, 8 Oct 2020 14:23:23 -0700:
for "Blacklists" and "Whitelists" because of the offense they give.
I'm surprised the physics community isn't so woke as the software
community and still keep going on with black holes and continue giving
offense to black people (with the negative connotations of sucking up
light)
CDB
Oct 9, 2020, 9:27:41 AM10/9/20
to
never know these days (for example, in 1971 Kurt Schmidt said that "of
colour" was racially negative, but now "person of colour" is entirely
acceptable).
If you're really worried, the safest thing is to avoid it. Jokes are
often called "off-colour" because of their sexual references, and for
that we have the somewhat old-fashioned "blue joke". Myself, I always
thought that was the colour referred to.
Peter T. Daniels
Oct 9, 2020, 10:58:56 AM10/9/20
to
On Friday, October 9, 2020 at 9:27:41 AM UTC-4, CDB wrote:
> I agree with others who say the phrase should not be offensive, but you
> never know these days (for example, in 1971 Kurt Schmidt said that "of
> colour" was racially negative, but now "person of colour" is entirely
> acceptable).
Who he? "Kurt Schmidt" doesn't sound like the name of a person of color.
> I agree with others who say the phrase should not be offensive, but you
> never know these days (for example, in 1971 Kurt Schmidt said that "of
> colour" was racially negative, but now "person of colour" is entirely
> acceptable).
CDB
Oct 9, 2020, 11:33:30 AM10/9/20
to
On 10/9/2020 10:58 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> CDB wrote:
>> I agree with others who say the phrase should not be offensive, but
>> you never know these days (for example, in 1971 Kurt Schmidt said
>> that "of colour" was racially negative, but now "person of colour"
>> is entirely acceptable).
> Who he? "Kurt Schmidt" doesn't sound like the name of a person of
> color.
Referred to in the OP question (qv) as having said what I quoted.
> CDB wrote:
>> I agree with others who say the phrase should not be offensive, but
>> you never know these days (for example, in 1971 Kurt Schmidt said
>> that "of colour" was racially negative, but now "person of colour"
>> is entirely acceptable).
> Who he? "Kurt Schmidt" doesn't sound like the name of a person of
> color.
Peter T. Daniels
Oct 9, 2020, 11:50:20 AM10/9/20
to
him. Especially for the unfortunate folk who can't look back 21 years
to his first posting.
Ken Blake
Oct 9, 2020, 12:42:51 PM10/9/20
to
On 10/8/2020 10:43 PM, Quinn C wrote:
> * Ken Blake:
>
>> On 10/8/2020 11:40 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> On Thursday, October 8, 2020 at 12:10:20 PM UTC-6, LaDana Edwards wrote:
>>>> On Friday, July 30, 1999 at 9:00:00 AM UTC+2, Kurt Schmidt wrote:
>>>> > I wonder if anyone has heard about "off-color" (double f, as in "off-color
>>>> > joke", not the more common "of color" as "person of color") as being a
>>>> > common racial slur or even racially-related phrase. [...]
>>>> I am wondering the same thing. i am researching the term, but I only
>>>> found your question. so there are two of us looking for an answer.
>>>> The term is useful, but I don't want to use it if it offends.
>>>
>>> I've never heard any claim that "off-color" is offensive.
>>
>> Nor have I, but there are certainly those who find off-color jokes
>> offensive.
>
> Isn't it rather that "off-color" is another way of stating that a joke
> is offensive?
Perhaps that's what it is to some people, but to me an off-color joke is
> * Ken Blake:
>
>> On 10/8/2020 11:40 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> On Thursday, October 8, 2020 at 12:10:20 PM UTC-6, LaDana Edwards wrote:
>>>> On Friday, July 30, 1999 at 9:00:00 AM UTC+2, Kurt Schmidt wrote:
>>>> > I wonder if anyone has heard about "off-color" (double f, as in "off-color
>>>> > joke", not the more common "of color" as "person of color") as being a
>>>> > common racial slur or even racially-related phrase. [...]
>>>> I am wondering the same thing. i am researching the term, but I only
>>>> found your question. so there are two of us looking for an answer.
>>>> The term is useful, but I don't want to use it if it offends.
>>>
>>> I've never heard any claim that "off-color" is offensive.
>>
>> Nor have I, but there are certainly those who find off-color jokes
>> offensive.
>
> Isn't it rather that "off-color" is another way of stating that a joke
> is offensive?
one that uses vulgar or obscene language. Some might find that
offensive, but not everyone does.
Ken Blake
Oct 9, 2020, 1:10:38 PM10/9/20
to
A man was sitting at a bar when a beautiful woman came and sat down next
to him. He said to her, "tickle your ass with a feather?"
She replied "WHAT DID YOU SAY?"
He replied "I said 'terribly nasty weather.' "
She said, "OK, I guess it is."
After she left the bar, he tried the same thing with a couple more
women. Eventually he was successful, and a woman replied "That sounds
like fun," and they left the bar together.
A drunk was sitting at the other side of the bar and watched his
becoming successful. The next time an attractive woman sat down, he went
up to her and said "Shove a feather up your ass?"
She replied "WHAT DID YOU SAY?"
He replied "I said 'It's fucking cold outside.' "
Undoubtedly some would find that joke offensive, but I don't. I think
it's at least mildly funny.
--
Ken
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Oct 9, 2020, 1:51:04 PM10/9/20
to
--
athel
Rich Ulrich
Oct 9, 2020, 2:03:07 PM10/9/20
to
On Fri, 9 Oct 2020 10:10:32 -0700, Ken Blake <k...@invalidemail.com>
wrote:
What saves the joke, IMO, is that it is not meaningless coarseness.
There is a point to it, or a moral that can be inferred. There may be
more than onel point. "God (or the Devil) is in the details" comes
to mind.
I have a vague recollection of a similalry constructed joke where
the ignoramus (or drunk) changed "dove" to "pigeon" - but is
all I recollect of it. I think I am surprised that I don't remember
several jokes like this. Also, I think the tension for the humor
comes from the person blurting something that is embarrassing
or really stupid; and coarseness or being off-color works.
--
Rich Ulrich
wrote:
There is a point to it, or a moral that can be inferred. There may be
more than onel point. "God (or the Devil) is in the details" comes
to mind.
I have a vague recollection of a similalry constructed joke where
the ignoramus (or drunk) changed "dove" to "pigeon" - but is
all I recollect of it. I think I am surprised that I don't remember
several jokes like this. Also, I think the tension for the humor
comes from the person blurting something that is embarrassing
or really stupid; and coarseness or being off-color works.
--
Rich Ulrich
Quinn C
Oct 9, 2020, 2:10:47 PM10/9/20
to
* Rich Ulrich:
A relatively well-known German one of the sort involves bilingual
word-play on the name "Bonaparte", and then the imitator says "Napoleon"
instead. There is a bit of a point to it, because the original word-play
isn't good on its own.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
word-play on the name "Bonaparte", and then the imitator says "Napoleon"
instead. There is a bit of a point to it, because the original word-play
isn't good on its own.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Paul Wolff
Oct 9, 2020, 3:18:37 PM10/9/20
to
On Fri, 9 Oct 2020, at 19:52:25, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> posted:
(Sorry, Ken.)
--
Paul
<acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> posted:
>On 2020-10-09 17:10:32 +0000, Ken Blake said:
>
>> On 10/9/2020 9:42 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On 10/8/2020 10:43 PM, Quinn C wrote:
>>>> * Ken Blake:
>>>>
>>>>> On 10/8/2020 11:40 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, October 8, 2020 at 12:10:20 PM UTC-6, LaDana Edwards wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, July 30, 1999 at 9:00:00 AM UTC+2, Kurt Schmidt wrote:
>>>>>>>> I wonder if anyone has heard about "off-color" (double f, as in
>>>>>>>>"off-color joke", not the more common "of color" as "person of
>>>>>>>>color") as being a common racial slur or even racially-related
>>>>>>>>
>
>> On 10/9/2020 9:42 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On 10/8/2020 10:43 PM, Quinn C wrote:
>>>> * Ken Blake:
>>>>
>>>>> On 10/8/2020 11:40 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, October 8, 2020 at 12:10:20 PM UTC-6, LaDana Edwards wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, July 30, 1999 at 9:00:00 AM UTC+2, Kurt Schmidt wrote:
>>>>>>>> I wonder if anyone has heard about "off-color" (double f, as in
>>>>>>>>"off-color joke", not the more common "of color" as "person of
>>>>>>>>color") as being a common racial slur or even racially-related
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am wondering the same thing. i am researching the term, but I only
>>>>>>> found your question. so there are two of us looking for an answer.
>>>>>>> The term is useful, but I don't want to use it if it offends.
>>>>>> I've never heard any claim that "off-color" is offensive.
>>>>> Nor have I, but there are certainly those who find off-color
>>>>>jokes offensive.
>>>> Isn't it rather that "off-color" is another way of stating that a
>>>>joke
>>>> is offensive?
>>> Perhaps that's what it is to some people, but to me an off-color
>>>joke is
>>> one that uses vulgar or obscene language. Some might find that
>>> offensive, but not everyone does.
>> I meant to include the following as an example of an off-color
>>joke:
>> A man was sitting at a bar when a beautiful woman came and sat down
>>next to him. He said to her, "tickle your ass with a feather?"
>> She replied "WHAT DID YOU SAY?"
>> He replied "I said 'terribly nasty weather.' "
"Particularly nasty weather."
>>>>>>> found your question. so there are two of us looking for an answer.
>>>>>>> The term is useful, but I don't want to use it if it offends.
>>>>>> I've never heard any claim that "off-color" is offensive.
>>>>> Nor have I, but there are certainly those who find off-color
>>>>>jokes offensive.
>>>> Isn't it rather that "off-color" is another way of stating that a
>>>>joke
>>>> is offensive?
>>> Perhaps that's what it is to some people, but to me an off-color
>>>joke is
>>> one that uses vulgar or obscene language. Some might find that
>>> offensive, but not everyone does.
>> I meant to include the following as an example of an off-color
>>joke:
>> A man was sitting at a bar when a beautiful woman came and sat down
>>next to him. He said to her, "tickle your ass with a feather?"
>> She replied "WHAT DID YOU SAY?"
>> He replied "I said 'terribly nasty weather.' "
>> She said, "OK, I guess it is."
>> After she left the bar, he tried the same thing with a couple more
>>women. Eventually he was successful, and a woman replied "That sounds
>>like fun," and they left the bar together.
>> A drunk was sitting at the other side of the bar and watched his
>>becoming successful. The next time an attractive woman sat down, he
>>went up to her and said "Shove a feather up your ass?"
>> She replied "WHAT DID YOU SAY?"
>> He replied "I said 'It's fucking cold outside.' "
>> Undoubtedly some would find that joke offensive, but I don't. I
>>think it's at least mildly funny.
>
>Mildly, at best.
>
It would have been a little funnier if Ken hadn't re-written the script.
>> After she left the bar, he tried the same thing with a couple more
>>women. Eventually he was successful, and a woman replied "That sounds
>>like fun," and they left the bar together.
>> A drunk was sitting at the other side of the bar and watched his
>>becoming successful. The next time an attractive woman sat down, he
>>went up to her and said "Shove a feather up your ass?"
>> She replied "WHAT DID YOU SAY?"
>> He replied "I said 'It's fucking cold outside.' "
>> Undoubtedly some would find that joke offensive, but I don't. I
>>think it's at least mildly funny.
>
>Mildly, at best.
>
(Sorry, Ken.)
--
Paul
David Kleinecke
Oct 9, 2020, 3:19:52 PM10/9/20
to
Englishmen who don't get jokes. Hinges on "can" versus "tin".
Ken Blake
Oct 9, 2020, 4:59:05 PM10/9/20
to
--
Ken
Snidely
Oct 9, 2020, 8:15:36 PM10/9/20
to
Jerry Friedman scribbled something on Thursday the 10/8/2020:
I think the color that is off is blue.
<URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribaldry>
However, the link to "off-color humor" goes to the more morbid "black
comedy".
/dps
--
"That’s where I end with this kind of conversation: Language is
crucial, and yet not the answer."
Jonathan Rosa, sociocultural and linguistic anthropologist,
Stanford.,2020
<URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribaldry>
However, the link to "off-color humor" goes to the more morbid "black
comedy".
/dps
--
"That’s where I end with this kind of conversation: Language is
crucial, and yet not the answer."
Jonathan Rosa, sociocultural and linguistic anthropologist,
Stanford.,2020
Peter Moylan
Oct 9, 2020, 9:15:40 PM10/9/20
to
weather", the final one is "Cunt of a day", and fewer people are involved.
But that's mere detail. It's still the same joke.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW
Peter Moylan
Oct 9, 2020, 11:19:40 PM10/9/20
to
On 10/10/20 05:02, Rich Ulrich wrote:
> What saves the joke, IMO, is that it is not meaningless coarseness.
> There is a point to it, or a moral that can be inferred. There may
> be more than onel point. "God (or the Devil) is in the details"
> comes to mind.
>
> I have a vague recollection of a similalry constructed joke where the
> ignoramus (or drunk) changed "dove" to "pigeon" - but is all I
> recollect of it. I think I am surprised that I don't remember
> several jokes like this. Also, I think the tension for the humor
> comes from the person blurting something that is embarrassing or
> really stupid; and coarseness or being off-color works.
One I remember from years ago, one that is not even off-colour, was
> What saves the joke, IMO, is that it is not meaningless coarseness.
> There is a point to it, or a moral that can be inferred. There may
> be more than onel point. "God (or the Devil) is in the details"
> comes to mind.
>
> I have a vague recollection of a similalry constructed joke where the
> ignoramus (or drunk) changed "dove" to "pigeon" - but is all I
> recollect of it. I think I am surprised that I don't remember
> several jokes like this. Also, I think the tension for the humor
> comes from the person blurting something that is embarrassing or
> really stupid; and coarseness or being off-color works.
about a young girl who was told by her mother that the words "jam" and
"tale" were coarse, and that she should instead say "preserves" and
"narrative". Later, the girl told her mother that the cat had its
narrative preserved in the door.
Another story, which I probably heard in French class at school, was
about a girl whose mouth was too big. A therapist gave her the exercise
of saying "pomme, prune, puce", in that order, several times a day. (You
might need to understand French pronunciation to get the point of this.)
Her mother thought "puce" (=flea) was indelicate, and got the girl to
say "pomme, prune, poire" instead. The girl's mouth got bigger.
Another French joke that now occurs to me is a bit more off-colour. A
man at a formal dinner found it necessary to go into another room to
release a build-up of internal gas. As he was flapping the tails of his
coat, a waiter came by and said "Ah, quelle pétulance." The first man
replied "Monsieur, il ne faut pas me tutoyer."
(How's that for obscurity?)
Peter Moylan
Oct 9, 2020, 11:24:12 PM10/9/20
to
"black hole", because a literal translation of the phrase is obscene.
Peter Moylan
Oct 9, 2020, 11:28:05 PM10/9/20
to
disappeared by now.
It wasn't in 1971, by the way. AUE didn't even exist back then. It had
to wait for Usenet to be invented.
Tony Cooper
Oct 10, 2020, 12:39:53 AM10/10/20
to
On Sat, 10 Oct 2020 14:27:58 +1100, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>On 10/10/20 01:58, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> On Friday, October 9, 2020 at 9:27:41 AM UTC-4, CDB wrote:
>>
>>> I agree with others who say the phrase should not be offensive, but
>>> you never know these days (for example, in 1971 Kurt Schmidt said
>>> that "of colour" was racially negative, but now "person of colour"
>>> is entirely acceptable).
>>
>> Who he? "Kurt Schmidt" doesn't sound like the name of a person of
>> color.
>
>Nobody remembers who he was. Almost all of the 1999 AUE regulars have
>disappeared by now.
Check out https://www.alt-usage-english.org/AUE_gallery/gallery.html
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>On 10/10/20 01:58, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> On Friday, October 9, 2020 at 9:27:41 AM UTC-4, CDB wrote:
>>
>>> I agree with others who say the phrase should not be offensive, but
>>> you never know these days (for example, in 1971 Kurt Schmidt said
>>> that "of colour" was racially negative, but now "person of colour"
>>> is entirely acceptable).
>>
>> Who he? "Kurt Schmidt" doesn't sound like the name of a person of
>> color.
>
>Nobody remembers who he was. Almost all of the 1999 AUE regulars have
>disappeared by now.
and see how many of pictured there are still posting here.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Oct 10, 2020, 2:35:29 AM10/10/20
to
On 2020-10-10 03:19:32 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>
> [ … ]
> Another French joke that now occurs to me is a bit more off-colour. A
> man at a formal dinner found it necessary to go into another room to
> release a build-up of internal gas. As he was flapping the tails of his
> coat, a waiter came by and said "Ah, quelle pétulance." The first man
> replied "Monsieur, il ne faut pas me tutoyer."
>
> (How's that for obscurity?)
The origin of the title Oh Calcutta! of a review that was popular half
a century ago was Quel con t'as!
--
athel
>
> [ … ]
> Another French joke that now occurs to me is a bit more off-colour. A
> man at a formal dinner found it necessary to go into another room to
> release a build-up of internal gas. As he was flapping the tails of his
> coat, a waiter came by and said "Ah, quelle pétulance." The first man
> replied "Monsieur, il ne faut pas me tutoyer."
>
> (How's that for obscurity?)
a century ago was Quel con t'as!
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Oct 10, 2020, 2:41:52 AM10/10/20
to
few others who post occasionally.
--
athel
Lewis
Oct 10, 2020, 5:18:24 AM10/10/20
to
fooled and embarrassed.
--
"Woof bloody woof."
occam
Oct 10, 2020, 5:21:27 AM10/10/20
to
On 08/10/2020 20:40, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Thursday, October 8, 2020 at 12:10:20 PM UTC-6, LaDana Edwards wrote:
>> On Friday, July 30, 1999 at 9:00:00 AM UTC+2, Kurt Schmidt wrote:
>>> I wonder if anyone has heard about "off-color" (double f, as in "off-color
>>> joke", not the more common "of color" as "person of color") as being a
>>> common racial slur or even racially-related phrase. I was told (indeed,
>>> chastized) that both single f (of color)and double f (off color) are common
>>> racially negative phrases, but I only know about the single f phrase (of
>>> color) being related to race. I wonder if this is a case of mistaken
>>> identity as it were. I could not find any racially related information on
>>> off-color on various English language sites. If you do k now about
>>> "off-color" being commonly understood to be ralated to racial slurs, then
>>> please be sokind as to provide the reference.
>>> Thanks in adavance!
>>> Kurt
>>> --
>>> 1. All statements are my private opinions. All statements are my
>>> responsibility and my employer may or may not share these opinions.
>>> 2. To reply by email you must remove the fruity part from my email address,
>>> lest our mass marketing friends get a hold of me!
>> I am wondering the same thing. i am researching the term, but I only found your question. so there are two of us looking for an answer. The term is useful, but I don't want to use it if it offends.
>
> I've never heard any claim that "off-color" is offensive.
>
It is all in the mind's-eye of the person on the receiving end of the
> On Thursday, October 8, 2020 at 12:10:20 PM UTC-6, LaDana Edwards wrote:
>> On Friday, July 30, 1999 at 9:00:00 AM UTC+2, Kurt Schmidt wrote:
>>> I wonder if anyone has heard about "off-color" (double f, as in "off-color
>>> joke", not the more common "of color" as "person of color") as being a
>>> common racial slur or even racially-related phrase. I was told (indeed,
>>> chastized) that both single f (of color)and double f (off color) are common
>>> racially negative phrases, but I only know about the single f phrase (of
>>> color) being related to race. I wonder if this is a case of mistaken
>>> identity as it were. I could not find any racially related information on
>>> off-color on various English language sites. If you do k now about
>>> "off-color" being commonly understood to be ralated to racial slurs, then
>>> please be sokind as to provide the reference.
>>> Thanks in adavance!
>>> Kurt
>>> --
>>> 1. All statements are my private opinions. All statements are my
>>> responsibility and my employer may or may not share these opinions.
>>> 2. To reply by email you must remove the fruity part from my email address,
>>> lest our mass marketing friends get a hold of me!
>> I am wondering the same thing. i am researching the term, but I only found your question. so there are two of us looking for an answer. The term is useful, but I don't want to use it if it offends.
>
> I've never heard any claim that "off-color" is offensive.
>
comment.
On the BBC there is a car program called 'Top Gear'. In one episode,
shot in Asia somewhere, the team built a makeshift bridge where the cars
could cross a stretch of some river. Jeremy Clarkson (the presenter) at
some stage examined the bridge and said something like "there is a slant
on it", meaning the construction was not level. It so happened that at
that moment there was an Asian man coming across the bridge.
There was uproar when his statement was interpreted as a reference to
'slant eyes', an offensive term for an oriental person.
He and his team had to issue an apology to all viewers (worldwide)
regarding the statement. I had to watch the episode 2-3 times before I
figured out which segment was the offensive bit.
We have discussed 'intent' and 'perception' here before. There is no
limit to the hypersensitivity of the public. More so these days when the
audience is international and where the dissemination medium is global
(podcast, Tweets, Instagram images, Facebook, etc.)
It strikes me that *any* 2-line statement can be turned around and
(mis-)interpreted as offensive.
Peter Moylan
Oct 10, 2020, 5:38:50 AM10/10/20
to
Peter Moylan
Oct 10, 2020, 5:46:09 AM10/10/20
to
Don't we all look young, though?
Kerr-Mudd,John
Oct 10, 2020, 7:08:16 AM10/10/20
to
it's his crusade against political correctness.
> He and his team had to issue an apology to all viewers (worldwide)
> regarding the statement. I had to watch the episode 2-3 times before I
> figured out which segment was the offensive bit.
>
> We have discussed 'intent' and 'perception' here before. There is no
> limit to the hypersensitivity of the public. More so these days when
> the audience is international and where the dissemination medium is
> global (podcast, Tweets, Instagram images, Facebook, etc.)
>
> It strikes me that *any* 2-line statement can be turned around and
> (mis-)interpreted as offensive.
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Oct 10, 2020, 9:07:33 AM10/10/20
to
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Oct 10, 2020, 9:13:06 AM10/10/20
to
of Accounting. Mind you, if you look at the new picture gallery that
Eric created, you'll see that I look a year or two younger than I
really am.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
Oct 10, 2020, 9:21:33 AM10/10/20
to
On Friday, October 9, 2020 at 11:19:40 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 10/10/20 05:02, Rich Ulrich wrote:
> > What saves the joke, IMO, is that it is not meaningless coarseness.
> > There is a point to it, or a moral that can be inferred. There may
> > be more than onel point. "God (or the Devil) is in the details"
> > comes to mind.
> > I have a vague recollection of a similalry constructed joke where the
> > ignoramus (or drunk) changed "dove" to "pigeon" - but is all I
> > recollect of it. I think I am surprised that I don't remember
> > several jokes like this. Also, I think the tension for the humor
> > comes from the person blurting something that is embarrassing or
> > really stupid; and coarseness or being off-color works.
>
> One I remember from years ago, one that is not even off-colour, was
> about a young girl who was told by her mother that the words "jam" and
> "tale" were coarse, and that she should instead say "preserves" and
> "narrative". Later, the girl told her mother that the cat had its
> narrative preserved in the door.
Good but not really repeat-worthy.
> On 10/10/20 05:02, Rich Ulrich wrote:
> > What saves the joke, IMO, is that it is not meaningless coarseness.
> > There is a point to it, or a moral that can be inferred. There may
> > be more than onel point. "God (or the Devil) is in the details"
> > comes to mind.
> > I have a vague recollection of a similalry constructed joke where the
> > ignoramus (or drunk) changed "dove" to "pigeon" - but is all I
> > recollect of it. I think I am surprised that I don't remember
> > several jokes like this. Also, I think the tension for the humor
> > comes from the person blurting something that is embarrassing or
> > really stupid; and coarseness or being off-color works.
>
> One I remember from years ago, one that is not even off-colour, was
> about a young girl who was told by her mother that the words "jam" and
> "tale" were coarse, and that she should instead say "preserves" and
> "narrative". Later, the girl told her mother that the cat had its
> narrative preserved in the door.
> Another story, which I probably heard in French class at school, was
> about a girl whose mouth was too big. A therapist gave her the exercise
> of saying "pomme, prune, puce", in that order, several times a day. (You
> might need to understand French pronunciation to get the point of this.)
> Her mother thought "puce" (=flea) was indelicate, and got the girl to
> say "pomme, prune, poire" instead. The girl's mouth got bigger.
> Another French joke that now occurs to me is a bit more off-colour. A
> man at a formal dinner found it necessary to go into another room to
> release a build-up of internal gas. As he was flapping the tails of his
> coat, a waiter came by and said "Ah, quelle pétulance." The first man
> replied "Monsieur, il ne faut pas me tutoyer."
>
> (How's that for obscurity?)
Peter T. Daniels
Oct 10, 2020, 9:25:43 AM10/10/20
to
On Saturday, October 10, 2020 at 5:21:27 AM UTC-4, occam wrote:
> It is all in the mind's-eye of the person on the receiving end of the
> comment.
>
> On the BBC there is a car program called 'Top Gear'. In one episode,
> shot in Asia somewhere, the team built a makeshift bridge where the cars
> could cross a stretch of some river. Jeremy Clarkson (the presenter) at
> some stage examined the bridge and said something like "there is a slant
> on it", meaning the construction was not level. It so happened that at
> that moment there was an Asian man coming across the bridge.
>
> There was uproar when his statement was interpreted as a reference to
> 'slant eyes', an offensive term for an oriental person.
When Red China began its rapprochement with the West, it was the
> It is all in the mind's-eye of the person on the receiving end of the
> comment.
>
> On the BBC there is a car program called 'Top Gear'. In one episode,
> shot in Asia somewhere, the team built a makeshift bridge where the cars
> could cross a stretch of some river. Jeremy Clarkson (the presenter) at
> some stage examined the bridge and said something like "there is a slant
> on it", meaning the construction was not level. It so happened that at
> that moment there was an Asian man coming across the bridge.
>
> There was uproar when his statement was interpreted as a reference to
> 'slant eyes', an offensive term for an oriental person.
only chink in the Iron Curtain.
Lewis
Oct 10, 2020, 9:33:57 AM10/10/20
to
--
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Umm.. I think so Bigbrainy-fishface-stovepipe-wiggleroom-Arlene, but
if you get a long little doggy wouldn't you just call it a
Dachshund?"
CDB
Oct 10, 2020, 9:38:38 AM10/10/20
to
On 10/10/2020 5:18 AM, Lewis wrote:
> HVS <off...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>> Lewis wrote:>>> Ken Blake<k...@invalidemail.com> wrote:
>>>> Jerry Friedman wrote:
appearance of her picnic, and did she then pour hot soup over him??
> HVS <off...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>> Lewis wrote:>>> Ken Blake<k...@invalidemail.com> wrote:
>>>> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>>> LaDana Edwards wrote:
>>>>>> Kurt Schmidt wrote:
>>>>>>> I wonder if anyone has heard about "off-color" (double f,
>>>>>>> as in "off-color joke", not the more common "of color" as
>>>>>>> "person of color") as being a common racial slur or even
>>>>>>> racially-related phrase. I was told (indeed, chastized)
>>>>>>> that both single f (of color)and double f (off color) are
>>>>>>> common racially negative phrases, but I only know about
>>>>>>> the single f phrase (of color) being related to race. I
>>>>>>> wonder if this is a case of mistaken identity as it were.
>>>>>>> I could not find any racially related information on
>>>>>>> off-color on various English language sites. If you do k
>>>>>>> now about "off-color" being commonly understood to be
>>>>>>> ralated to racial slurs, then please be sokind as to
>>>>>>> provide the reference. Thanks in adavance! Kurt --
>>>>>> Kurt Schmidt wrote:
>>>>>>> I wonder if anyone has heard about "off-color" (double f,
>>>>>>> as in "off-color joke", not the more common "of color" as
>>>>>>> "person of color") as being a common racial slur or even
>>>>>>> racially-related phrase. I was told (indeed, chastized)
>>>>>>> that both single f (of color)and double f (off color) are
>>>>>>> common racially negative phrases, but I only know about
>>>>>>> the single f phrase (of color) being related to race. I
>>>>>>> wonder if this is a case of mistaken identity as it were.
>>>>>>> I could not find any racially related information on
>>>>>>> off-color on various English language sites. If you do k
>>>>>>> now about "off-color" being commonly understood to be
>>>>>>> ralated to racial slurs, then please be sokind as to
>>>>>>> provide the reference. Thanks in adavance! Kurt --
>>>>>> I am wondering the same thing. i am researching the term,
>>>>>> but I only found your question. so there are two of us
>>>>>> looking for an answer. The term is useful, but I don't want
>>>>>> to use it if it offends.
>>>>> I've never heard any claim that "off-color" is offensive.
>>>> Nor have I, but there are certainly those who find off-color
>>>> jokes offensive.
>>> And there are people who invent etymologies just for the purpose
>>> of being offended, so much so that when someones says "that
>>> phrase is offensive because it used to mean ____" you need to do
>>> some research to find out if that is really true.
>>> For example, I have had to look up "sold down the river" Yes, it
>>> does refer to the slave trade, but since it means 'a betrayal'
>>> it still seems a little odd that people object to it) and "cake
>>> walk" (also racist in origin) after being burned on picnic
>>> (nothing at all to do with anything offensive at all).
>> "Burned on picnic" is an entirely new expression for me (and
>> googling for the meaning didn't help).
> You've never heard "To be burned on/about a topic"? It means to be
> fooled and embarrassed.
Did the protagonist compliment a Black mother at the park on the
>>>>>> but I only found your question. so there are two of us
>>>>>> looking for an answer. The term is useful, but I don't want
>>>>>> to use it if it offends.
>>>>> I've never heard any claim that "off-color" is offensive.
>>>> Nor have I, but there are certainly those who find off-color
>>>> jokes offensive.
>>> And there are people who invent etymologies just for the purpose
>>> of being offended, so much so that when someones says "that
>>> phrase is offensive because it used to mean ____" you need to do
>>> some research to find out if that is really true.
>>> For example, I have had to look up "sold down the river" Yes, it
>>> does refer to the slave trade, but since it means 'a betrayal'
>>> it still seems a little odd that people object to it) and "cake
>>> walk" (also racist in origin) after being burned on picnic
>>> (nothing at all to do with anything offensive at all).
>> "Burned on picnic" is an entirely new expression for me (and
>> googling for the meaning didn't help).
> You've never heard "To be burned on/about a topic"? It means to be
> fooled and embarrassed.
appearance of her picnic, and did she then pour hot soup over him??
CDB
Oct 10, 2020, 9:38:55 AM10/10/20
to
On 10/9/2020 11:50 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> CDB wrote:
> It would have been polite not to remove the attribution that
> identified him. Especially for the unfortunate folk who can't look
> back 21 years to his first posting.
You should address your complaint to someone else.
riffle-riffle-riffle-riffle
Ah, a brief search amongst the "read" messages indicates that you are
the culprit; so not precisely "someone else".
> CDB wrote:
>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> CDB wrote:
>>>> I agree with others who say the phrase should not be offensive,
>>>> but you never know these days (for example, in 1971 Kurt
>>>> Schmidt said that "of colour" was racially negative, but now
>>>> "person of colour" is entirely acceptable).
>>> Who he? "Kurt Schmidt" doesn't sound like the name of a person
>>> of color.
>> Referred to in the OP question (qv) as having said what I quoted.
>>> CDB wrote:
>>>> I agree with others who say the phrase should not be offensive,
>>>> but you never know these days (for example, in 1971 Kurt
>>>> Schmidt said that "of colour" was racially negative, but now
>>>> "person of colour" is entirely acceptable).
>>> Who he? "Kurt Schmidt" doesn't sound like the name of a person
>>> of color.
> It would have been polite not to remove the attribution that
> identified him. Especially for the unfortunate folk who can't look
> back 21 years to his first posting.
You should address your complaint to someone else.
riffle-riffle-riffle-riffle
Ah, a brief search amongst the "read" messages indicates that you are
the culprit; so not precisely "someone else".
CDB
Oct 10, 2020, 9:39:06 AM10/10/20
to
On 10/9/2020 11:27 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> CDB wrote:
>>> I agree with others who say the phrase should not be offensive,
>>> but you never know these days (for example, in 1971 Kurt Schmidt
>>> said that "of colour" was racially negative, but now "person of
>>> colour" is entirely acceptable).
>> Who he? "Kurt Schmidt" doesn't sound like the name of a person of
>> color.
> Nobody remembers who he was. Almost all of the 1999 AUE regulars
> have disappeared by now.
> It wasn't in 1971, by the way. AUE didn't even exist back then. It
> had to wait for Usenet to be invented.
I do take responsibility for that one. Typo? KS was said to have
>>> I agree with others who say the phrase should not be offensive,
>>> but you never know these days (for example, in 1971 Kurt Schmidt
>>> said that "of colour" was racially negative, but now "person of
>>> colour" is entirely acceptable).
>> Who he? "Kurt Schmidt" doesn't sound like the name of a person of
>> color.
> Nobody remembers who he was. Almost all of the 1999 AUE regulars
> have disappeared by now.
> It wasn't in 1971, by the way. AUE didn't even exist back then. It
> had to wait for Usenet to be invented.
posted in the 1990s, AIR.
Peter T. Daniels
Oct 10, 2020, 9:44:30 AM10/10/20
to
However, GG shows me no messages by me earlier than yours that I
responded to.
HVS
Oct 10, 2020, 9:55:26 AM10/10/20
to
On 10 Oct 2020, Lewis wrote
> In message <XnsAC517B93...@144.76.35.198> HVS
> <off...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 09 Oct 2020, Lewis wrote
>
-snip-
>>> For example, I have had to look up "sold down the river" Yes, it
>>> does refer to the slave trade, but since it means 'a betrayal'
>>> it still seems a little odd that people object to it) and "cake
>>> walk" (also racist in origin) after being burned on picnic
>>> (nothing at all to do with anything offensive at all).
>
>> "Burned on picnic" is an entirely new expression for me (and
>> googling for the meaning didn't help).
>
> You've never heard "To be burned on/about a topic"? It means to be
> fooled and embarrassed.
Ah; thanks. I see it now that you explain it: I took it as a some sort
of set phrase rather than that,
It's still a bit odd to me, though: I'm more familiar with having some
part -- like my metaphorical fingers -- burned, rather than "me" in
general.
I think my default way of writing would also require the same use of
quotation marks that were placed around "sold down the river" and "cake
walk" (...after being burned on "picnic").
--
Cheers, Harvey
> In message <XnsAC517B93...@144.76.35.198> HVS
> <off...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 09 Oct 2020, Lewis wrote
>
>>> For example, I have had to look up "sold down the river" Yes, it
>>> does refer to the slave trade, but since it means 'a betrayal'
>>> it still seems a little odd that people object to it) and "cake
>>> walk" (also racist in origin) after being burned on picnic
>>> (nothing at all to do with anything offensive at all).
>
>> "Burned on picnic" is an entirely new expression for me (and
>> googling for the meaning didn't help).
>
> You've never heard "To be burned on/about a topic"? It means to be
> fooled and embarrassed.
of set phrase rather than that,
It's still a bit odd to me, though: I'm more familiar with having some
part -- like my metaphorical fingers -- burned, rather than "me" in
general.
I think my default way of writing would also require the same use of
quotation marks that were placed around "sold down the river" and "cake
walk" (...after being burned on "picnic").
--
Cheers, Harvey
Tony Cooper
Oct 10, 2020, 10:30:10 AM10/10/20
to
On Sat, 10 Oct 2020 14:55:20 +0100, HVS <off...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>
wrote:
The explanation might have been clearer if it read "burned in
accepting the myth of the origin of the word 'picnic'."
wrote:
accepting the myth of the origin of the word 'picnic'."
Paul Wolff
Oct 10, 2020, 11:22:20 AM10/10/20
to
On Sat, 10 Oct 2020, at 10:30:03, Tony Cooper posted:
or embarrass us. So this whole discussion remains a mystery.
--
Paul
>On Sat, 10 Oct 2020 14:55:20 +0100, HVS <off...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>
>>>> On 09 Oct 2020, Lewis wrote
>>
>>
>>>>> For example, I have had to look up "sold down the river" Yes, it
>>>>> does refer to the slave trade, but since it means 'a betrayal'
>>>>> it still seems a little odd that people object to it) and "cake
>>>>> walk" (also racist in origin) after being burned on picnic
>>>>> (nothing at all to do with anything offensive at all).
>>>
>>>> "Burned on picnic" is an entirely new expression for me (and
>>>> googling for the meaning didn't help).
>>>
>>> You've never heard "To be burned on/about a topic"? It means to be
>>> fooled and embarrassed.
>>
>>Ah; thanks. I see it now that you explain it: I took it as a some sort
>>of set phrase rather than that,
>>
>>It's still a bit odd to me, though: I'm more familiar with having some
>>part -- like my metaphorical fingers -- burned, rather than "me" in
>>general.
>>
>>I think my default way of writing would also require the same use of
>>quotation marks that were placed around "sold down the river" and "cake
>>walk" (...after being burned on "picnic").
>
>The explanation might have been clearer if it read "burned in
>accepting the myth of the origin of the word 'picnic'."
Not all of us even know there's a picnic myth out there waiting to fool
>>>>> does refer to the slave trade, but since it means 'a betrayal'
>>>>> it still seems a little odd that people object to it) and "cake
>>>>> walk" (also racist in origin) after being burned on picnic
>>>>> (nothing at all to do with anything offensive at all).
>>>
>>>> "Burned on picnic" is an entirely new expression for me (and
>>>> googling for the meaning didn't help).
>>>
>>> You've never heard "To be burned on/about a topic"? It means to be
>>> fooled and embarrassed.
>>
>>Ah; thanks. I see it now that you explain it: I took it as a some sort
>>of set phrase rather than that,
>>
>>It's still a bit odd to me, though: I'm more familiar with having some
>>part -- like my metaphorical fingers -- burned, rather than "me" in
>>general.
>>
>>I think my default way of writing would also require the same use of
>>quotation marks that were placed around "sold down the river" and "cake
>>walk" (...after being burned on "picnic").
>
>The explanation might have been clearer if it read "burned in
>accepting the myth of the origin of the word 'picnic'."
or embarrass us. So this whole discussion remains a mystery.
--
Paul
Ken Blake
Oct 10, 2020, 11:29:16 AM10/10/20
to
to make sure I was right, I just verified it on Wikipedia.
--
Ken
Ken Blake
Oct 10, 2020, 11:34:20 AM10/10/20
to
--
Ken
Tony Cooper
Oct 10, 2020, 12:00:50 PM10/10/20
to
knows the actual origin.
The the origin of the word "picnic", according to some sources, is an
expression that means "pick a ninny" which is a play on the word
"pickaninny". "Pickaninny" is a very offensive term meaning "small
black child".
The "picnic"/"pickaninny" association is that Americans supposedly
brought lunches and watched lynchings.
There *is* ample evidence that the crowds at lynchings treated the
event as a festive spectacle (much line the hanging of criminals in
England), but no real evidence that the word "picnic" came from this.
I don't think most Americans - today - have ever seen or heard the
word "pickaninny".
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Oct 10, 2020, 12:12:23 PM10/10/20
to
On 2020-10-10 15:14:05 +0000, Paul Wolff said:
> On Sat, 10 Oct 2020, at 10:30:03, Tony Cooper posted:
[ … ]
> On Sat, 10 Oct 2020, at 10:30:03, Tony Cooper posted:
>>>
>>
>> The explanation might have been clearer if it read "burned in
>> accepting the myth of the origin of the word 'picnic'."
>
> Not all of us even know there's a picnic myth out there waiting to fool
> or embarrass us. So this whole discussion remains a mystery.
in our chemistry course.
--
athel
Lewis
Oct 10, 2020, 12:53:44 PM10/10/20
to
--
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
bebe...@aol.com
Oct 10, 2020, 1:07:27 PM10/10/20
to
- Calcutta !
- Oui, il est bien Bombay.
Peter Moylan
Oct 10, 2020, 1:31:07 PM10/10/20
to
RH Draney
Oct 10, 2020, 1:57:20 PM10/10/20
to
On 10/10/2020 2:21 AM, occam wrote:
>
> On the BBC there is a car program called 'Top Gear'. In one episode,
> shot in Asia somewhere, the team built a makeshift bridge where the cars
> could cross a stretch of some river. Jeremy Clarkson (the presenter) at
> some stage examined the bridge and said something like "there is a slant
> on it", meaning the construction was not level. It so happened that at
> that moment there was an Asian man coming across the bridge.
>
> There was uproar when his statement was interpreted as a reference to
> 'slant eyes', an offensive term for an oriental person.
>
> He and his team had to issue an apology to all viewers (worldwide)
> regarding the statement. I had to watch the episode 2-3 times before I
> figured out which segment was the offensive bit.
"Coming up next: Emperor Hirohito flies back to Japan after his historic
>
> On the BBC there is a car program called 'Top Gear'. In one episode,
> shot in Asia somewhere, the team built a makeshift bridge where the cars
> could cross a stretch of some river. Jeremy Clarkson (the presenter) at
> some stage examined the bridge and said something like "there is a slant
> on it", meaning the construction was not level. It so happened that at
> that moment there was an Asian man coming across the bridge.
>
> There was uproar when his statement was interpreted as a reference to
> 'slant eyes', an offensive term for an oriental person.
>
> He and his team had to issue an apology to all viewers (worldwide)
> regarding the statement. I had to watch the episode 2-3 times before I
> figured out which segment was the offensive bit.
first-ever visit to the United States and weatherman Bob Kudzma says
there's a nip in the air tonight."
-- Bill Burns, newsreader for KDKA in Pittsburgh
(I'm still not sure to this day whether Phoenix's Scott Passmore
realized what he was saying in 1996 the morning after the Republican
convention, when he led off with "Well, it looks like Jack Kemp is Bob
Dole's right-hand man")....r
Paul Wolff
Oct 10, 2020, 2:12:26 PM10/10/20
to
On Sat, 10 Oct 2020, at 16:53:39, Lewis <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me>
posted:
Thank you, but having read another explanation already, I'll skip the
re-telling if you don't mind.
--
Paul
posted:
re-telling if you don't mind.
--
Paul
Tony Cooper
Oct 10, 2020, 2:12:39 PM10/10/20
to
On Sun, 11 Oct 2020 04:31:00 +1100, Peter Moylan
The self-portrait of me on Eric's page at
https://owlcroft.com/aue/aposter.php?id=Tony%20Cooper
was taken in April, 2020. I don't know when the photo of me on the
old page was taken.
Note, that while I'm very proficient at Adobe Photoshop, I have not
edited the 2020 photograph to smooth out those neck wrinkles or
reduced the size of that nose.
There is a no more-recent photograph of me. While I have taken 100s
of photographs of the family since April, the photographer never gets
photographed.
https://owlcroft.com/aue/aposter.php?id=Tony%20Cooper
was taken in April, 2020. I don't know when the photo of me on the
old page was taken.
Note, that while I'm very proficient at Adobe Photoshop, I have not
edited the 2020 photograph to smooth out those neck wrinkles or
reduced the size of that nose.
There is a no more-recent photograph of me. While I have taken 100s
of photographs of the family since April, the photographer never gets
photographed.
bil...@shaw.ca
Oct 10, 2020, 6:18:25 PM10/10/20
to
where we have had considerable Chinese immigration since the 1870s,
and lots of racism. Notably, when an automated procedure for gutting
and cleaning salmon was adopted in canning plants, where many
of the employees were Chinese, the machine that replaced them
was called the "iron chink".
bill
Quinn C
Oct 10, 2020, 7:30:32 PM10/10/20
to
* Peter Moylan:
> On 09/10/20 22:45, Madhu wrote:
>> * Ken Blake <hu9eac...@mid.individual.net> : Wrote on Thu, 8 Oct
>> 2020 14:23:23 -0700:
>> code for "Blacklists" and "Whitelists" because of the offense they
>> give.
>>
>> I'm surprised the physics community isn't so woke as the software
>> community and still keep going on with black holes and continue
>> giving offense to black people (with the negative connotations of
>> sucking up light)
>
> I've been told that Russians have to use a completely different term for
> "black hole", because a literal translation of the phrase is obscene.
Urban legend?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D1%87%D1%91%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B4%D1%8B%D1%80%D0%B0#Russian
In German, the usage of "black" to mean "illegally", as in "black
market" has come under fire, but it's not gone yet.
This is more common in German than in English.
"Schwarzarbeit" black work = undeclared, without paying taxes
"Schwarzfahren" going black (on a bus or train) = without a ticket
"Schwarzkopie" illegal copy [1]
[1] But "Raubkopie", robbed copy, is more common. Little sense though it
makes - holding someone at gunpoint is rarely involved.
--
The wrong body ... now comes not to claim rightness but to
dismantle the system that metes out rightness and wrongness
according to the dictates of various social orders.
-- Jack Halberstam, Unbuilding Gender
> On 09/10/20 22:45, Madhu wrote:
>> * Ken Blake <hu9eac...@mid.individual.net> : Wrote on Thu, 8 Oct
>> 2020 14:23:23 -0700:
>>> On 10/8/2020 11:40 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>> I've never heard any claim that "off-color" is offensive.
>>> Nor have I, but there are certainly those who find off-color jokes
>>> offensive.
>>
>> Most of the free-software projects I'm seeing have renamed their
>>>> I've never heard any claim that "off-color" is offensive.
>>> Nor have I, but there are certainly those who find off-color jokes
>>> offensive.
>>
>> code for "Blacklists" and "Whitelists" because of the offense they
>> give.
>>
>> I'm surprised the physics community isn't so woke as the software
>> community and still keep going on with black holes and continue
>> giving offense to black people (with the negative connotations of
>> sucking up light)
>
> I've been told that Russians have to use a completely different term for
> "black hole", because a literal translation of the phrase is obscene.
Urban legend?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D1%87%D1%91%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B4%D1%8B%D1%80%D0%B0#Russian
In German, the usage of "black" to mean "illegally", as in "black
market" has come under fire, but it's not gone yet.
This is more common in German than in English.
"Schwarzarbeit" black work = undeclared, without paying taxes
"Schwarzfahren" going black (on a bus or train) = without a ticket
"Schwarzkopie" illegal copy [1]
[1] But "Raubkopie", robbed copy, is more common. Little sense though it
makes - holding someone at gunpoint is rarely involved.
--
The wrong body ... now comes not to claim rightness but to
dismantle the system that metes out rightness and wrongness
according to the dictates of various social orders.
-- Jack Halberstam, Unbuilding Gender
Quinn C
Oct 10, 2020, 7:30:34 PM10/10/20
to
* bebe...@aol.com:
In a German joke, a woman looks out a window in Tehran and gestures
towards a man: "Khomeini!" And he declines: "Islam!"
("Come in!" "... is lame!" It's a stretch even in German, but you can
work it out.)
--
The least questioned assumptions are often the most questionable
-- Paul Broca
... who never questioned that men are more intelligent than women
towards a man: "Khomeini!" And he declines: "Islam!"
("Come in!" "... is lame!" It's a stretch even in German, but you can
work it out.)
--
The least questioned assumptions are often the most questionable
-- Paul Broca
... who never questioned that men are more intelligent than women
Quinn C
Oct 10, 2020, 7:30:34 PM10/10/20
to
* Peter Moylan:
My photo on the new homepage is from this year. But I do look younger
than I am to most people. In a hilarious turn of phrase, I've been told
I don't look old enough to have a child, by someone who turned out to be
exactly the same age as me, i.e. 52 at the time.
--
Oh Sam! You're so funny and insensitive! -- Cat
than I am to most people. In a hilarious turn of phrase, I've been told
I don't look old enough to have a child, by someone who turned out to be
exactly the same age as me, i.e. 52 at the time.
--
Oh Sam! You're so funny and insensitive! -- Cat
RH Draney
Oct 10, 2020, 8:20:41 PM10/10/20
to
On 10/10/2020 3:18 PM, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
>
> "Chink" is considered a serious racial slur here in British Columbia,
> where we have had considerable Chinese immigration since the 1870s,
> and lots of racism. Notably, when an automated procedure for gutting
> and cleaning salmon was adopted in canning plants, where many
> of the employees were Chinese, the machine that replaced them
> was called the "iron chink".
I still find this hilarious:
>
> "Chink" is considered a serious racial slur here in British Columbia,
> where we have had considerable Chinese immigration since the 1870s,
> and lots of racism. Notably, when an automated procedure for gutting
> and cleaning salmon was adopted in canning plants, where many
> of the employees were Chinese, the machine that replaced them
> was called the "iron chink".
https://www.quirkspace.com/boo/images/GookieMilk.jpg
....r
Madhu
Oct 11, 2020, 2:28:38 AM10/11/20
to
* David Kleinecke <cfc3ccc5-1008-4391...@googlegroups.com> :
Wrote on Fri, 9 Oct 2020 12:19:48 -0700 (PDT):
> On Friday, October 9, 2020 at 11:10:47 AM UTC-7, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Rich Ulrich:
>> > On Fri, 9 Oct 2020 10:10:32 -0700, Ken Blake <k...@invalidemail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>On 10/9/2020 9:42 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> >>> On 10/8/2020 10:43 PM, Quinn C wrote:
>> >>>> * Ken Blake:
>> >>>>> On 10/8/2020 11:40 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> >>>>>> On Thursday, October 8, 2020 at 12:10:20 PM UTC-6, LaDana
>> >>>>>> Edwards wrote:
>> >>>>>>> On Friday, July 30, 1999 at 9:00:00 AM UTC+2, Kurt Schmidt wrote:
>> >>>>>>> > I wonder if anyone has heard about "off-color" (double f,
>> >>>>>>> > as in "off-color joke", not the more common "of color" as
>> >>>>>>> > "person of color") as being a common racial slur or even
>> >>>>>>> > racially-related phrase. [...]
>> >>>>>>> > I wonder if anyone has heard about "off-color" (double f,
>> >>>>>>> > as in "off-color joke", not the more common "of color" as
>> >>>>>>> > "person of color") as being a common racial slur or even
>> >>>>>>> I am wondering the same thing. i am researching the term, but
>> >>>>>>> I only found your question. so there are two of us looking
>> >>>>>>> for an answer. The term is useful, but I don't want to use
>> >>>>>>> it if it offends.
>> >>>>>>> I only found your question. so there are two of us looking
>> >>>>>>> for an answer. The term is useful, but I don't want to use
>> >>>>>>> it if it offends.
>> >>>>>> I've never heard any claim that "off-color" is offensive.
>> >>>>> Nor have I, but there are certainly those who find off-color
>> >>>>> jokes offensive.
>> >>>> Isn't it rather that "off-color" is another way of stating that
>> >>>>> Nor have I, but there are certainly those who find off-color
>> >>>>> jokes offensive.
>> >>>> a joke is offensive?
>> >>> Perhaps that's what it is to some people, but to me an off-color
>> >>> joke is one that uses vulgar or obscene language. Some might find
>> >>> that offensive, but not everyone does.
[tickle your ass with a feather]
>> > What saves the joke, IMO, is that it is not meaningless coarseness.
>> > There is a point to it, or a moral that can be inferred. There may
>> > be more than onel point. "God (or the Devil) is in the details"
>> > comes to mind.
>> >
>> > I have a vague recollection of a similalry constructed joke where
>> > the ignoramus (or drunk) changed "dove" to "pigeon" - but is all I
>> > recollect of it. I think I am surprised that I don't remember
>> > several jokes like this.
>>
>> word-play on the name "Bonaparte", and then the imitator says
>> "Napoleon" instead. There is a bit of a point to it, because the
>> original word-play isn't good on its own.
> There is a well-know old clean version involving salmon fishing and
> Englishmen who don't get jokes. Hinges on "can" versus "tin".
I had to look up "Chase and Sanborn" before I understood this:
%
"Hello, Chase and Sanborn," said the little brother to his big
sister's flame. "Why address me as 'Chase and Sanborn,' Tommy?"
"Oh, your date's on the can."
%
I never imagined a racial origin for "Off-colour" in off-colour jokes. I
assumed came from blushing, or "something wrong" - a wrong colour in
urine say.
Here is Ken's joke as found in my local fortune file
%
A drunk was sitting at the end of the bar in a popular single's place,
watching a young, good-looking man working his way through the women. The
guy didn't appear to be having much luck, and he was only spending a few
moments with each woman. As he worked his way closer, while he couldn't
hear what the young man was saying, he realized that the women were somewhat
shocked at his approach. Finally, the man approaches a pretty brunette and
they hit it off immediately. After a bit of quiet conversation, she handed
the young man her hotel key and they started off for the elevators. As they
passed the drunk, he stopped the lucky one and asked him what his method was.
"Well," the man replied, "It's simple. You say 'Tickle your ass
with a feather?' If she sounds interested, you take it from there. If she
sounds angry, you smile and say 'Typically nasty weather.'"
The drunk says "Ohhhhh, got it, I got it!" and walks over to a woman
at the end of the bar to try out his new approach. Getting her attention,
he smiles and says "Fuck me!"
"What?!?!?" she screams.
"Raining like hell, isn't it?"
%
David Kleinecke
Oct 11, 2020, 3:00:21 AM10/11/20
to
On Saturday, October 10, 2020 at 11:28:38 PM UTC-7, Madhu wrote:
> * David Kleinecke <cfc3ccc5-1008-4391...@googlegroups.com> :
> Wrote on Fri, 9 Oct 2020 12:19:48 -0700 (PDT):
> * David Kleinecke <cfc3ccc5-1008-4391...@googlegroups.com> :
> Wrote on Fri, 9 Oct 2020 12:19:48 -0700 (PDT):
> > There is a well-know old clean version involving salmon fishing and
> > Englishmen who don't get jokes. Hinges on "can" versus "tin".
>
> I had to look up "Chase and Sanborn" before I understood this:
>
> %
> "Hello, Chase and Sanborn," said the little brother to his big
> sister's flame. "Why address me as 'Chase and Sanborn,' Tommy?"
> "Oh, your date's on the can."
> %
Wrong joke.
> > Englishmen who don't get jokes. Hinges on "can" versus "tin".
>
> I had to look up "Chase and Sanborn" before I understood this:
>
> %
> "Hello, Chase and Sanborn," said the little brother to his big
> sister's flame. "Why address me as 'Chase and Sanborn,' Tommy?"
> "Oh, your date's on the can."
> %
Manager of salmon fishery takes Englishman on tour of facility.
Explains "We eat as much fish as we can and what we can't we can."
English man likes joke, returns to England and tells joke - "We
eat as much as possible and tin the balance".
RH Draney
Oct 11, 2020, 5:46:11 AM10/11/20
to
British victim: "I don't know. What?"
American: "The seat of his pants."
British victim: "Say, that's rather clever. I'll have to remember it."
- some time later -
British victim: "Say, Alfie, what do you see when you look down a dog's
throat?"
His friend: "Sorry, no idea. What do you see when you look down a
dog's throat?"
British victim: "The seat of his trousers, of course!"
....r
bebe...@aol.com
Oct 11, 2020, 8:43:39 AM10/11/20
to
Le dimanche 11 octobre 2020 01:30:34 UTC+2, Quinn C a écrit :
> * bebe...@aol.com:
>
> > Le samedi 10 octobre 2020 11:38:50 UTC+2, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> >> On 10/10/20 17:39, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >>> On 2020-10-10 03:19:32 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> [ … ]
> >>>
> >>>> Another French joke that now occurs to me is a bit more off-colour.
> >>>> A man at a formal dinner found it necessary to go into another room
> >>>> to release a build-up of internal gas. As he was flapping the tails
> >>>> of his coat, a waiter came by and said "Ah, quelle pétulance." The
> >>>> first man replied "Monsieur, il ne faut pas me tutoyer."
> >>>>
> >>>> (How's that for obscurity?)
> >>>
> >>> The origin of the title Oh Calcutta! of a review that was popular
> >>> half a century ago was Quel con t'as!
> >>
> >> That was one that I almost managed to decode. My guess was Quel cul tu as.
> >
> > An imaginary dialogue in French:
> >
> > - Calcutta !
> > - Oui, il est bien Bombay.
>
> In a German joke, a woman looks out a window in Tehran and gestures
> towards a man: "Khomeini!" And he declines: "Islam!"
>
> ("Come in!" "... is lame!" It's a stretch even in German, but you can
> work it out.)
He could have added "Aga Khan" for "I can't" (with a BrE accent) but
> * bebe...@aol.com:
>
> > Le samedi 10 octobre 2020 11:38:50 UTC+2, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> >> On 10/10/20 17:39, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >>> On 2020-10-10 03:19:32 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> [ … ]
> >>>
> >>>> Another French joke that now occurs to me is a bit more off-colour.
> >>>> A man at a formal dinner found it necessary to go into another room
> >>>> to release a build-up of internal gas. As he was flapping the tails
> >>>> of his coat, a waiter came by and said "Ah, quelle pétulance." The
> >>>> first man replied "Monsieur, il ne faut pas me tutoyer."
> >>>>
> >>>> (How's that for obscurity?)
> >>>
> >>> The origin of the title Oh Calcutta! of a review that was popular
> >>> half a century ago was Quel con t'as!
> >>
> >> That was one that I almost managed to decode. My guess was Quel cul tu as.
> >
> > An imaginary dialogue in French:
> >
> > - Calcutta !
> > - Oui, il est bien Bombay.
>
> In a German joke, a woman looks out a window in Tehran and gestures
> towards a man: "Khomeini!" And he declines: "Islam!"
>
> ("Come in!" "... is lame!" It's a stretch even in German, but you can
> work it out.)
that would be even more of a stretch.
Janet
Oct 11, 2020, 9:13:02 AM10/11/20
to
In article <91m3ofd9t1bngm3u7...@4ax.com>, tonycooper214
@gmail.com says...
"Picnic" does not originate from lynching parties.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picnic
Janet
@gmail.com says...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picnic
Janet
CDB
Oct 11, 2020, 9:20:23 AM10/11/20
to
line and his message:
"I wonder if anyone has heard about "off-color" (double f, as in
"off-color joke", not the more common "of color" as "person of color")
told (indeed, chastized) that both single f (of color)and double f (off
color) are common racially negative phrases, but I only know about the
single f phrase (of color)
being related to race. I wonder if this is a case of mistaken
identity as it were. I could not find any racially related
information on off-color on various English language sites. If you
do k now about "off-color" being commonly understood to be ralated
to racial slurs, then please be sokind as to provide the reference.
Thanks in adavance! Kurt"
Your response didn't.
Peter T. Daniels
Oct 11, 2020, 10:20:33 AM10/11/20
to
My mother yelled at my grandmother when she suggested "eating at
the chinks" (or maybe Chink's), i.e. the Chinese restaurant,
indicating it was a usual locution in the Oughts of the 20th
century when her diction was finalized.
Peter T. Daniels
Oct 11, 2020, 10:25:40 AM10/11/20
to
to, and when it does show it, you have to scroll up to see it.
The context didn't suggest that the person was a contributor
to the thread.
Snidely
Oct 11, 2020, 1:02:20 PM10/11/20
to
Janet formulated the question :
The point is that many people believe it does.
/dps
--
"First thing in the morning, before I have coffee, I read the obits, If
I'm not in it, I'll have breakfast." -- Carl Reiner, to CBS News in
2015.
/dps
--
"First thing in the morning, before I have coffee, I read the obits, If
I'm not in it, I'll have breakfast." -- Carl Reiner, to CBS News in
2015.
Tony Cooper
Oct 11, 2020, 1:51:24 PM10/11/20
to
On Sun, 11 Oct 2020 10:02:11 -0700, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Yes, that's why it's identified as a "popular myth".
wrote:
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Oct 11, 2020, 2:28:11 PM10/11/20
to
--
athel
Tony Cooper
Oct 11, 2020, 3:33:57 PM10/11/20
to
screen a couple of inches.
And, you'd be hard-pressed to find an American who isn't old enough to
qualify to join AARP or to get a Jersey City bus pass who have ever
heard/seen the word "pickaninny".
RH Draney
Oct 11, 2020, 4:21:07 PM10/11/20
to
On 10/11/2020 12:33 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
> And, you'd be hard-pressed to find an American who isn't old enough to
> qualify to join AARP or to get a Jersey City bus pass who have ever
> heard/seen the word "pickaninny".
It was famously used by Arizona's one-year governor Evan Mecham during
>
> And, you'd be hard-pressed to find an American who isn't old enough to
> qualify to join AARP or to get a Jersey City bus pass who have ever
> heard/seen the word "pickaninny".
his 1986 "term", so anyone living in the state at that time is certain
to have heard it....r
spains...@gmail.com
Oct 11, 2020, 4:21:29 PM10/11/20
to
On Friday, July 30, 1999 at 8:00:00 AM UTC+1, Kurt Schmidt wrote:
> I wonder if anyone has heard about "off-color" (double f, as in "off-color
> joke", not the more common "of color" as "person of color") as being a
> common racial slur or even racially-related phrase. I was told (indeed,
> chastized) that both single f (of color)and double f (off color) are common
> racially negative phrases, but I only know about the single f phrase (of
> color) being related to race. I wonder if this is a case of mistaken
> identity as it were. I could not find any racially related information on
> off-color on various English language sites. If you do k now about
> "off-color" being commonly understood to be ralated to racial slurs, then
> please be sokind as to provide the reference.
> Thanks in adavance!
It is a common spelling mistake, in London at any rate, to have "of" and
> I wonder if anyone has heard about "off-color" (double f, as in "off-color
> joke", not the more common "of color" as "person of color") as being a
> common racial slur or even racially-related phrase. I was told (indeed,
> chastized) that both single f (of color)and double f (off color) are common
> racially negative phrases, but I only know about the single f phrase (of
> color) being related to race. I wonder if this is a case of mistaken
> identity as it were. I could not find any racially related information on
> off-color on various English language sites. If you do k now about
> "off-color" being commonly understood to be ralated to racial slurs, then
> please be sokind as to provide the reference.
> Thanks in adavance!
"off" as alternative spellings of the same word, with the same meaning. It is
not quite as common as thinking "creats" is the correct spelling of "crates",
but it comes close.
"Person of colour" is like many euphemisms - "toilet", "lavatory", "wash room",
"rest room" etc a euphemism for just a short while, before it becomes overtaken
by the word it trying to euphemise. I was taught in my childhood *never* to use
the work "black" because it is extremely offensive; the polite term is "negro".
That advice flip-flopped very soon afterwards, and there is no word you can
safely use today which won't be held against you to prove you are "racist" a year
or so from now.
Ken Blake
Oct 11, 2020, 4:37:27 PM10/11/20
to
--
Ken
Ken Blake
Oct 11, 2020, 4:40:09 PM10/11/20
to
On 10/11/2020 12:33 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
I'm an AARP member. I've seen the word "pickaninny," but I don't
remember ever hearing it.
--
Ken
Mark Brader
Oct 11, 2020, 4:48:37 PM10/11/20
to
R.H. Draney:
--
Mark Brader | "...it doesn't even fulfill the most basic
Toronto | requirements for a good text editor, such as
m...@vex.net | having a built-in mail reader." -- Per Abrahamsen
> American jokester: "What do you see when you look down a dog's throat?"
> British victim: "I don't know. What?"
> American: "The seat of his pants."
> British victim: "Say, that's rather clever. I'll have to remember it."
Hey, so it is. I didn't get it until I read the British, er, mistranslation.
> British victim: "I don't know. What?"
> American: "The seat of his pants."
> British victim: "Say, that's rather clever. I'll have to remember it."
--
Mark Brader | "...it doesn't even fulfill the most basic
Toronto | requirements for a good text editor, such as
m...@vex.net | having a built-in mail reader." -- Per Abrahamsen
Peter T. Daniels
Oct 11, 2020, 4:57:23 PM10/11/20
to
On Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 3:33:57 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Oct 2020 20:29:34 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> >On 2020-10-11 17:02:11 +0000, Snidely said:
> >> Janet formulated the question :
> >>> In article <91m3ofd9t1bngm3u7...@4ax.com>, tonycooper214
> >>> @gmail.com says...
> On Sun, 11 Oct 2020 20:29:34 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> >On 2020-10-11 17:02:11 +0000, Snidely said:
> >> Janet formulated the question :
> >>> In article <91m3ofd9t1bngm3u7...@4ax.com>, tonycooper214
> >>> @gmail.com says...
> >>>> The the origin of the word "picnic", according to some sources, is
> >>>> an expression that means "pick a ninny" which is a play on the word
> >>>> "pickaninny". "Pickaninny" is a very offensive term meaning "small
> >>>> an expression that means "pick a ninny" which is a play on the word
> >>>> "pickaninny". "Pickaninny" is a very offensive term meaning "small
> >>>> The "picnic"/"pickaninny" association is that Americans supposedly
> >>>> brought lunches and watched lynchings.
> >>> "Picnic" does not originate from lynching parties.
> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picnic
> >> The point is that many people believe it does.
> >Many people in the USA, perhaps. Nowhere else.
Lookit that. Athel has interviewed every human being in the entire
> >>>> brought lunches and watched lynchings.
> >>> "Picnic" does not originate from lynching parties.
> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picnic
> >> The point is that many people believe it does.
> >Many people in the USA, perhaps. Nowhere else.
world.
> Yes, and that's why I added "Americans" in the sentence just up the
> screen a couple of inches.
>
> And, you'd be hard-pressed to find an American who isn't old enough to
> qualify to join AARP or to get a Jersey City bus pass who have ever
> heard/seen the word "pickaninny".
Tony Cooper
Oct 11, 2020, 5:03:29 PM10/11/20
to
describe something about the past and to chose which word to use.
For example: There were only two (word) in my high school class in
1952/1956.
Chose: African Americans, blacks, coloreds, negroes.
That first choice was not used in that period, and I don't think the
second choice was, either. The second two were, but can I write that
sentence today using either?
Peter T. Daniels
Oct 11, 2020, 5:20:09 PM10/11/20
to
Peter T. Daniels
Oct 11, 2020, 5:23:51 PM10/11/20
to
On Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 5:03:29 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Oct 2020 13:21:25 -0700 (PDT), "spains...@gmail.com"
> <spains...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >"Person of colour" is like many euphemisms -
It's not a euphemism, and it's not a synonym for "Negro / African-
> On Sun, 11 Oct 2020 13:21:25 -0700 (PDT), "spains...@gmail.com"
> <spains...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >"Person of colour" is like many euphemisms -
American." It refers to all US non-whites.
> >"toilet", "lavatory", "wash room",
> >"rest room" etc a euphemism for just a short while, before it becomes overtaken
> >by the word it trying to euphemise. I was taught in my childhood *never* to use
> >the work "black" because it is extremely offensive; the polite term is "negro".
> >That advice flip-flopped very soon afterwards, and there is no word you can
> >safely use today which won't be held against you to prove you are "racist" a year
> >or so from now.
>
> I've brought this up before, but the difficult thing for me is to
> describe something about the past and to chose which word to use.
>
> For example: There were only two (word) in my high school class in
> 1952/1956.
>
> Chose: African Americans, blacks, coloreds, negroes.
>
> That first choice was not used in that period, and I don't think the
> second choice was, either. The second two were, but can I write that
> sentence today using either?
"Negroes" throughout his career, which began during that period.
Lewis
Oct 11, 2020, 5:37:34 PM10/11/20
to
In message <85ef84d2-e3fc-47d7...@googlegroups.com> spains...@gmail.com <spains...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, July 30, 1999 at 8:00:00 AM UTC+1, Kurt Schmidt wrote:
>> I wonder if anyone has heard about "off-color" (double f, as in "off-color
>> joke", not the more common "of color" as "person of color") as being a
>> common racial slur or even racially-related phrase. I was told (indeed,
>> chastized) that both single f (of color)and double f (off color) are common
>> racially negative phrases, but I only know about the single f phrase (of
>> color) being related to race. I wonder if this is a case of mistaken
>> identity as it were. I could not find any racially related information on
>> off-color on various English language sites. If you do k now about
>> "off-color" being commonly understood to be ralated to racial slurs, then
>> please be sokind as to provide the reference.
>> Thanks in adavance!
>
> It is a common spelling mistake, in London at any rate, to have "of" and
> "off" as alternative spellings of the same word, with the same meaning. It is
> not quite as common as thinking "creats" is the correct spelling of "crates",
> but it comes close.
For at least some BrE it is hard to hear a difference between the two
> On Friday, July 30, 1999 at 8:00:00 AM UTC+1, Kurt Schmidt wrote:
>> I wonder if anyone has heard about "off-color" (double f, as in "off-color
>> joke", not the more common "of color" as "person of color") as being a
>> common racial slur or even racially-related phrase. I was told (indeed,
>> chastized) that both single f (of color)and double f (off color) are common
>> racially negative phrases, but I only know about the single f phrase (of
>> color) being related to race. I wonder if this is a case of mistaken
>> identity as it were. I could not find any racially related information on
>> off-color on various English language sites. If you do k now about
>> "off-color" being commonly understood to be ralated to racial slurs, then
>> please be sokind as to provide the reference.
>> Thanks in adavance!
>
> It is a common spelling mistake, in London at any rate, to have "of" and
> "off" as alternative spellings of the same word, with the same meaning. It is
> not quite as common as thinking "creats" is the correct spelling of "crates",
> but it comes close.
words.
> "Person of colour" is like many euphemisms - "toilet", "lavatory", "wash room",
> "rest room" etc a euphemism for just a short while, before it becomes overtaken
> by the word it trying to euphemise. I was taught in my childhood *never* to use
> the work "black" because it is extremely offensive; the polite term is "negro".
but I do remember some older people who absolutely did not like being
called black.
> That advice flip-flopped very soon afterwards, and there is no word you can
> safely use today which won't be held against you to prove you are "racist" a year
> or so from now.
four decades and has not been replaced by African-American despite a lot
of efforts from some.
--
'Tell me, Sir Samuel, do you know the phrase "Quis custodiet ipsos
custodes?"? (...) It means "Who guards the guards themselves?"
(...) Who watches the Watch?' --Feet of Clay
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