How would you couch this question?
jinhyun
What question need
we ask him to elicit this information?
I did think of 'Senioritywise, where do you stand among your father's
children?' but 'I am seniormost' would be a complete answer which
doesn't contain the information we want.
This puzzle arises because in a certain Indian language this question
is particularly easy to ask whereas it presents some difficulties in
English. Thanks in advance for any replies.
the Omrud
This question is asked here about once a month. There is no English
question word for the concept.
--
David
=====
Bob Cunningham
<jinhyu...@gmail.com> said:
Say "How many of your father's children are older than you?"
Or you could reduce it by one word, saying "How many of your
siblings are older than you?"
And in yet three fewer words, "How many older siblings have
you?"
But if you ask "Are you your parents' oldest child?", and if
the person is at all polite, he or she will either say yes
or will say "No, I'm the <n>th oldest."
However, I think a lot of people would understand "Which
number child are you?"
For any of those questions, you don't have to know the total
number of children, but if you want to learn that number in
addition to the rank, you can say "How many older siblings
have you, and how many younger?"
jinhyun
> jinhyunsh...@gmail.com had it:
Oops. Sorry. I should be more observant. I didn't realize the question
had been asked here before.
athel...@yahoo
> jinhyunsh...@gmail.com had it:
used in the OP's proposed "complete answer" do not exist in English.
The first would probably nonetheless be understood if used in a
suitable context; the second might well not be, as the word "senior"
already exists to convey the intended and the hearer might well wonder
what different meaning for "seniormost" was intended. In any case,
even "senior" is rarely if ever used in relation to the ages of
siblings. It is used for relative rankings in a hierarchy, and sets of
siblings are not regarded in everyday language as constituting a
hierarchy -- I am younger than one of my sisters, and older than the
other, but I don't regard myself as "junior" to the former or "senior"
to the latter. In AmE, "Senior" and "Junior" (usually written as "Sr."
and "Jr.") are used to distinguish fathers and sons with the same
name, but this is rare in BrE (though not unknown -- one thinks (at
least, one does if one is a chemist) of William Perkin Junior, a
famous organic chemist of the 19th Century).
athel
jinhyun
> On 31 Jan 2007 01:12:11 -0800, "jinhyun"
Hi. 'How many older children does your father have?' certainly would
have elicited the required information but that one of the older
children might have died. Say you are the second of your father's
children and your elder brother has died; then you could legitimately
answer 'How many older children does your father have?' with 'none'
from which it can't be inferred that you are your father's first
child. I think we would need to ask.' I think you need to ask:'How
many children had your father had before you were born?'.
My understanding is that you need to have both parents in common with
someone else to qualify as his/her sibling. But whichever definition
of sibling is admitted, simple calculations can show that the wrong
answer may be elicited if either the mother or the father or both have
had children apart from those they have had together.
the Omrud
> On Jan 31, 2:29 pm, the Omrud <usenet.om...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > jinhyunsh...@gmail.com had it:
> >
> > > Hi. Let us say that a fellow is the third of his father's children.
> > > What question need
> > > we ask him to elicit this information?
> > > I did think of 'Senioritywise, where do you stand among your father's
> > > children?' but 'I am seniormost' would be a complete answer which
> > > doesn't contain the information we want.
> > > This puzzle arises because in a certain Indian language this question
> > > is particularly easy to ask whereas it presents some difficulties in
> > > English. Thanks in advance for any replies.
> >
> > This question is asked here about once a month. There is no English
> > question word for the concept.
> >
> Oops. Sorry. I should be more observant. I didn't realize the question
> had been asked here before.
No problem, but there's little more to say. Many speakers of other
languages seem to refuse to believe that this word doesn't exist in
English. English speakers don't notice that it's missing until it's
pointed out by non-native speakers.
I looked through the AUE FAQ to see if there are any standard replies
but I couldn't find an entry relating to it.
Donna, should we have this in the FAQ?
--
David
=====
jinhyun
Hi mate. Yeah, 'seniormost' is one of those words like 'prepone' which
also seems not to exist but which we are sometimes tempted to use. But
you wouldn't answer 'Senioritywise, where do you stand among your
father's children?' with 'I am the senior'. In situations like this
you wish you had a word such as seniormost. Of course, this would only
occur to you if you were bent upon using a derivative of 'senior'.
Otherwise, you could just say 'eldest'.However, you would call the
eldest son the senior son.
But I am intrigued about senioritywise. I thought that wise could be
appended to any noun whatever to make a new word. Could you please
elaborate on that?
the Omrud
> jinhyu...@gmail.com had it:
>
> > On Jan 31, 2:29 pm, the Omrud <usenet.om...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > jinhyunsh...@gmail.com had it:
> > >
> > > > Hi. Let us say that a fellow is the third of his father's children.
> > > > What question need
> > > > we ask him to elicit this information?
> > > > I did think of 'Senioritywise, where do you stand among your father's
> > > > children?' but 'I am seniormost' would be a complete answer which
> > > > doesn't contain the information we want.
> > > > This puzzle arises because in a certain Indian language this question
> > > > is particularly easy to ask whereas it presents some difficulties in
> > > > English. Thanks in advance for any replies.
> > >
> > > This question is asked here about once a month. There is no English
> > > question word for the concept.
> > >
> > Oops. Sorry. I should be more observant. I didn't realize the question
> > had been asked here before.
>
> No problem, but there's little more to say. Many speakers of other
> languages seem to refuse to believe that this word doesn't exist in
> English. English speakers don't notice that it's missing until it's
> pointed out by non-native speakers.
I've noticed that this question always relates to the birth order of
children in a family. Another reason for us not having a word to
question this is that it's not a topic of interest. It wouldn't be
rude to ask somebody the question, but it would be odd to do so.
Rather like "What colour is your mother's car?" There is a factual
answer, but why would anybody want to know?
--
David
=====
jinhyun
>
> > Or you could reduce it by one word, saying "How many of your
> > siblings are older than you?"
>
> > And in yet three fewer words, "How many older siblings have
> > you?"
>
> > But if you ask "Are you your parents' oldest child?", and if
> > the person is at all polite, he or she will either say yes
> > or will say "No, I'm the <n>th oldest."
>
> > However, I think a lot of people would understand "Which
> > number child are you?"
>
> > For any of those questions, you don't have to know the total
> > number of children, but if you want to learn that number in
> > addition to the rank, you can say "How many older siblings
> > have you, and how many younger?"
>
jinhyun
> usenet.om...@gmail.com had it:
>
>
>
>
>
> > jinhyunsh...@gmail.com had it:
>
> - Show quoted text -
I must disagree with you, mate. I don't think that that is a reason.
The fact that the question is odd, which I grant, needn't at all imply
that it should be difficult to express. There are plenty of outlandish
questions which no-one ever asks anyone else which are easily
facilitated in English. I don't think that this question is quite so
bad. Under certain circumstances, a lawyer might ask it of his client,
Hercule Poirot might demand it of Lady Astor and so on. But I think my
latest attempt: 'How many children had your father had before you were
born?' clinches it -- at least, as an expedient to elicit the desired
information.
Donna Richoux
> However, I think a lot of people would understand "Which
> number child are you?"
I like the sound of that, so I'm surprised that Google can only find 11
instances of "what number child".
It finds 97 "what number president" which also isn't very large.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
the Omrud
> On Jan 31, 3:41 pm, the Omrud <usenet.om...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I've noticed that this question always relates to the birth order of
> > children in a family. Another reason for us not having a word to
> > question this is that it's not a topic of interest. It wouldn't be
> > rude to ask somebody the question, but it would be odd to do so.
> > Rather like "What colour is your mother's car?" There is a factual
> > answer, but why would anybody want to know?
>
> I must disagree with you, mate. I don't think that that is a reason.
> The fact that the question is odd, which I grant, needn't at all imply
> that it should be difficult to express.
Up to there we agree. But my point is that, if this question were
asked millions of times every year over hundreds of years, a simple
form of words would have emerged. But it isn't asked, so English
hasn't evolved a simple question for it.
I presume that the position one holds in relation to one's siblings
must have a cultural importance in India which it doesn't have in
England. Rather like one's blood group in Japan.
> There are plenty of outlandish
> questions which no-one ever asks anyone else which are easily
> facilitated in English. I don't think that this question is quite so
> bad. Under certain circumstances, a lawyer might ask it of his client,
> Hercule Poirot might demand it of Lady Astor and so on. But I think my
> latest attempt: 'How many children had your father had before you were
> born?' clinches it -- at least, as an expedient to elicit the desired
> information.
So, why do you want to know? What will you do with the information?
If you ask that in England, you are likely to get an answer something
like: "Two, at least as far as my mother was aware".
--
David
=====
the Omrud
> Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
> > However, I think a lot of people would understand "Which
> > number child are you?"
>
> I like the sound of that, so I'm surprised that Google can only find 11
> instances of "what number child".
It would have to include "in your family". Without any other clues I
would not know what the "number" related to. Football shirt,
perhaps?
--
David
=====
Peter Moylan
> to the latter. In AmE, "Senior" and "Junior" (usually written as
> "Sr." and "Jr.") are used to distinguish fathers and sons with the
> same name, but this is rare in BrE (though not unknown -- one thinks
> (at least, one does if one is a chemist) of William Perkin Junior, a
> famous organic chemist of the 19th Century).
Recently I was going through an 1851 Irish land valuation document. In
one region, three plots of land are held by Edward Moylan jnr, Edward
Moylan snr, and Edw Moylan (middle). I have not yet worked out how the
three Edwards are related to one another.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet
address could disappear at any time.
CyberCypher
> usenet.om...@gmail.com had it:
It's very important in Japanese and Chinese families and societies in
general. Just as primogeniture once was in jolly olde England.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan.
"It has come to my attention that my opinions are not universally
shared." Scott Adams, The Dilbert Blog, 23 Jan 2007;
http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/
andy M
>
> Hi. 'How many older children does your father have?' certainly would
> have elicited the required information
No, actually it wouldnt as such, it would have to have been 'How many
children older than you does your father have?
"older Children" would just mean children above a certain age (and
would probably provoke the response "older than what?")
> but that one of the older
> children might have died. Say you are the second of your father's
> children and your elder brother has died; then you could legitimately
> answer 'How many older children does your father have?' with 'none'
No. See above, it would depend on *your* age.
> from which it can't be inferred that you are your father's first
> child. I think we would need to ask.' I think you need to ask:'How
> many children had your father had before you were born?'.
> My understanding is that you need to have both parents in common with
> someone else to qualify as his/her sibling.
No. A half/brother/sister would also be a sibling in common usage.
> But whichever definition
> of sibling is admitted, simple calculations can show that the wrong
> answer may be elicited if either the mother or the father or both have
> had children apart from those they have had together
The bare fact is that in the cultures which use english as a first
language (and most which use english as a second or third language)
none of this "information" is of the slightest interest.
andy M
the Omrud
> On Jan 31, 6:41 pm, the Omrud <usenet.om...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > usenet.om...@gmail.com had it:
>
> > I've noticed that this question always relates to the birth order
> > of children in a family. Another reason for us not having a word
> > to question this is that it's not a topic of interest. It
> > wouldn't be rude to ask somebody the question, but it would be odd
> > to do so. Rather like "What colour is your mother's car?" There
> > is a factual answer, but why would anybody want to know?
>
> It's very important in Japanese and Chinese families and societies in
> general. Just as primogeniture once was in jolly olde England.
I understand, but *why*? What is the information used for? Can't be
very exciting information in China these days though.
BTW, I don't think that primogeniture was of much interest to the
ordinary folk, unless to know who the next king was likely to be.
--
David
=====
DianeE
"jinhyun" <jinhyu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1170241831....@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Also--at least here in America--you mainly consider your *mother's* children
as your "real" siblings, and your father's children by other women as your
"half" siblings. So the question about how many children your *father* had
before you were born might even be considered rude, or at least too
personal.
If you're truly interested in birth order, the friendliest way to put the
question might be "Do you have older siblings?" If the answer is "Yes," you
could then ask "How many?"
DianeE
Donna Richoux
[snip discussion of the rank/how-manyeth/which-number question]
> No problem, but there's little more to say. Many speakers of other
> languages seem to refuse to believe that this word doesn't exist in
> English. English speakers don't notice that it's missing until it's
> pointed out by non-native speakers.
>
> I looked through the AUE FAQ to see if there are any standard replies
> but I couldn't find an entry relating to it.
>
> Donna, should we have this in the FAQ?
I should first say that anyone can submit FAQ material to AUE Webmaster
Mike Barnes.
For my own standards for the Intro Docs (Mini-FAQs) -- yes, it qualifies
under the frequently-asked requirement. And yes, it passes under the
can-we-say-anything-sensible requirement. Your sentences above about
foreign and English speakers could be half of it, the other half being a
few suggestions of how to phrase such a question.
I stumble on a technicality -- what to *call* such a FAQ section. If a
word doesn't exist, it's hard to know how to label the discussion in
such a way that it can be searched for and found. However, if we get all
the right terms in like "birth order" and "president" then it should
always be google-able.
I like to put drafts of Intro Doc entries here and revise them
collectively until they're satisfactory. Some people find that process
tedious, but for me, it feels better than trying to fix something that's
been put into a public document as if it had been the final form.
Listen, I've got a question that it would be well to clear up -- could
be list a few examples of how other languages say this thing easily?
I've been taking the word of others that they do.
Consider: George W. Bush is the 43rd president. What about Lincoln?
Question: How do you say "Which number president was Abraham Lincoln?"
in French or Finnish or ...?
Tony Cooper
wrote:
When the interest to know does come up, I usually ask "Are you the
oldest child in your family?" or "Are you the youngest child in your
family?" That serves to prompt the other person to provide his or
her birth order in the family.
There are occasions in conversation where the birth order comes up.
You can't very well talk about what it's like being forced to wear
hand-me-downs with someone who is the eldest child.
(Yes, I know...the eldest might have to wear an older relative's
clothes, or even those of an older non-related person.)
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
dcw
Donna Richoux <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote:
>I stumble on a technicality -- what to *call* such a FAQ section. If a
>word doesn't exist, it's hard to know how to label the discussion in
>such a way that it can be searched for and found. However, if we get all
>the right terms in like "birth order" and "president" then it should
>always be google-able.
Surely "howmanyeth" is the agreed form of this non-existent word?
David
bert
The question "Whereabouts do you come in your family?"
defies logical analysis, but it would be easily understood
to expect such a reply from a child as "I am the eldest",
"I am the third-eldest" or whatever.
--
Gerry
Birth order.
Bob Cunningham
<jinhyu...@gmail.com> said:
All of those problems go away when the question is addressed
to one of the children. "How many older siblings have you?"
gets the desired answer whether or not one of the siblings
has died. If number one sibling has died and child number
three is asked "How many older siblings have you?", the
answer is one", but if the question is "How many older
siblings have you had", the answer is two.
From the _New Shorter Oxford_:
sibling
1 A relative. OE豊ME.
2 Each of two or more offspring of the same parent
or parents. E20.
Definition 1 is effectively obsolete. I don't think anyone
nowadays would take "sibling" to mean relative.
Note "parent OR parents". So a child is your sibling if you
have the same father but not the same mother, the same
mother but not the same father, OR the same father and same
mother. For a given child, only one of those conditions
applies, so there is no ambiguity.
Your recent remarks are addressed to the question of asking
the father. From the way you phrased the original question,
it was clear that you had in mind asking the child, not one
of the parents.
"How many older siblings have you?" does the job with no
problem under any circumstance.
Bob Cunningham
Richoux) said:
> Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > However, I think a lot of people would understand "Which
> > number child are you?"
> I like the sound of that, so I'm surprised that Google can
> only find 11 instances of "what number child".
"Which number child" gets 29.
It seems to me that asking "what number?" implies that you
think the answer can be any number whatsoever, while asking
"which number?" suggests that there's a finite ordered set
of children in the family and you want to know which member
of that set the interrogee is.
> It finds 97 "what number president" which also isn't very
> large.
I would ask "which" rather than "what", but "which number
president" gets only 32 hits.
I get 32 hits for "how many older siblings do you have".
Incidentally, the _New Shorter Oxford_ has "interrogee" but
not "interrogatee", while the _11th Collegiate_ has both,
but with no cross reference between them.
Ilpo
> Bob Cunningham <exw6...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > However, I think a lot of people would understand "Which
> > number child are you?"
>
> I like the sound of that, so I'm surprised that Google can only find 11
> instances of "what number child".
That's a bit strange, because it gave 106 hits to me (which still
isn't much, though).
To me, the expression "what number child" brings about a
counterreaction: children aren't numbers. Prior to reading this
thread, I probably would'n even have been able to formulate such a
question in English; if asked whether "what number child" is correct
English, I would have leaned towards the negative. Now I know better,
thanks to you and Bob.
In your earlier post you wondered how "which number president" would
be asked e.g. in Finnish. You probably picked Finnish as an example of
a bizarre and spoken-by-hardly-anyone language, but I'll answer
anyway. In Finnish "which number" would be "kuinka mones", which can
be further shortened to "monesko" with a case ending, something
Finnish uses a lot. "Kuinka mones" would literally translate into
English as "how manyeth", an expression English is unfortunately
lacking. I say unfortunately, because in my ears "what number" in that
meaning sounds clumsy and stilted, although not necessarily in the
ears of a NES, which naturally is what counts.
Ilpo
Frances Kemmish
> The bare fact is that in the cultures which use english as a first
> language (and most which use english as a second or third language)
> none of this "information" is of the slightest interest.
>
I think you are mistaken. It is of interest to many people to know the
family relationships of their friends and acquaintances, and knowing
someone's place in the "pecking order" of a family is part of that.
Fran
Bob Cunningham
<pe...@ozebelgDieSpammers.org> said:
> athel...@yahoo wrote:
>
> > to the latter. In AmE, "Senior" and "Junior" (usually written as
> > "Sr." and "Jr.") are used to distinguish fathers and sons with the
> > same name, but this is rare in BrE (though not unknown -- one thinks
> > (at least, one does if one is a chemist) of William Perkin Junior, a
> > famous organic chemist of the 19th Century).
>
> Recently I was going through an 1851 Irish land valuation document. In
> one region, three plots of land are held by Edward Moylan jnr, Edward
> Moylan snr, and Edw Moylan (middle). I have not yet worked out how the
> three Edwards are related to one another.
If you hadn't planted the suggestion that a problem may
exist, I would have assumed that "snr" is the father of
"middle", and "jnr" is the son of "middle".
"Middle" has to be between the other two. "Snr" has to be
older than "middle". "Jnr" has to be younger than "middle".
It seems the only way to satisfy those conditions is as I've
assumed above.
How can that not be so? What am I missing?
Frances Kemmish
You are assuming that "Senior" and "Junior" can only apply to fathers
and sons. That was not always the case. One could be a nephew or cousin
of the other.
Ilpo
>I probably would'n even have been able to
wouldn't
That one I was able to pick out myself. Any other corrections will be
accepted with gratitude.
Mike Lyle
[...]
> But I am intrigued about senioritywise. I thought that wise could be
> appended to any noun whatever to make a new word. Could you please
> elaborate on that?
No, the way you used it, meaning "in respect of" or "with reference to",
isn't productive in formal English. It's common enough in colloquial
speech, but even now (if we stop to think about it) the rest of us
perhaps regard it as a slightly comic Americanism. "The marriage was
awful, sex-wise."
Where it is standard is as a suffix meaning "in the manner of".
"Clockwise" comes to mind. I think this use is still productive in
standard English, but I'm not certain. I'm inventing examples in my
head, but so far they all seem a little strange. "He used a leafy branch
brush-wise to sweep the ground"? "He holds his knife penwise"?
--
Mike.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Mike Lyle
[...]
> My understanding is that you need to have both parents in common
> with someone else to qualify as his/her sibling. But whichever
> definition of sibling is admitted, simple calculations can show that
> the wrong answer may be elicited if either the mother or the father or
> both have had children apart from those they have had together.
>
half-siblings regard themselves simply as siblings, particularly if they
were brought up together. My own children have, between them, assorted
genetic parents, but I've never heard any of them mention the fact
unless the information was in some way relevant: there was discussion of
noses at a party the other day, for example.
It's like the "how-manieth child?" question: in our social conditions
the information is rarely of any importance or interest.
Default User
> I've noticed that this question always relates to the birth order of
> children in a family. Another reason for us not having a word to
> question this is that it's not a topic of interest. It wouldn't be
> rude to ask somebody the question, but it would be odd to do so.
> Rather like "What colour is your mother's car?" There is a factual
> answer, but why would anybody want to know?
That might be your experience, but it's certainly not mine. Perhaps
because I came from a family with eight kids. When people hear that,
they frequently ask about birth order. This is so frequent that I tend
to provide a short cut by saying, "I was the oldest of eight."
Brian
--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)
Default User
> Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
> > However, I think a lot of people would understand "Which
> > number child are you?"
>
> I like the sound of that, so I'm surprised that Google can only find
> 11 instances of "what number child".
The phrase "where are you in the birth order" gets 58, "where are you
in birth order" another dozen or so.
Just "birth order" gets a zillion.
Default User
Yeah, that's what I'd say. See message elsethread about that.
CDB
> Donna Richoux wrote:
>
>> Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> However, I think a lot of people would understand "Which
>>> number child are you?"
>>
>> I like the sound of that, so I'm surprised that Google can only
>> find 11 instances of "what number child".
>
> The phrase "where are you in the birth order" gets 58, "where are
> you in birth order" another dozen or so.
>
> Just "birth order" gets a zillion.
"Place in * birth order" gets another reported 240 hits, with an
actual count of 141. Not all of them are to the point, though.
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>the Omrud wrote:
>
>
>> I've noticed that this question always relates to the birth order of
>> children in a family. Another reason for us not having a word to
>> question this is that it's not a topic of interest. It wouldn't be
>> rude to ask somebody the question, but it would be odd to do so.
>> Rather like "What colour is your mother's car?" There is a factual
>> answer, but why would anybody want to know?
>
>That might be your experience, but it's certainly not mine. Perhaps
>because I came from a family with eight kids. When people hear that,
>they frequently ask about birth order. This is so frequent that I tend
>to provide a short cut by saying, "I was the oldest of eight."
My wife is the youngest of eight (surviving) children. One died in
early infancy, and my wife's mother was offended if "eight", instead
of "nine", was used.
Ian Noble
wrote:
>Hi. Let us say that a fellow is the third of his father's children.
>What question need
>we ask him to elicit this information?
>I did think of 'Senioritywise, where do you stand among your father's
>children?' but 'I am seniormost' would be a complete answer which
>doesn't contain the information we want.
>This puzzle arises because in a certain Indian language this question
>is particularly easy to ask whereas it presents some difficulties in
>English. Thanks in advance for any replies.
"How many older siblings do you have?"
Cheers - Ian
Peter Moylan
Your reasoning is logical, and indeed that was also my first thought.
However, I'm still trying to work out how the Moylans of that townland
are related to one another, and I don't think I can match up the data in
such a way that three Edwards occur in a direct line of descent. At this
point I am certain that snr/middle/jnr correctly describes their
relative ages, and that these tags were applied to remove a potential
ambiguity. I am far less certain that, for example, "middle" is the son
of "snr" or the father of "jnr".
In the American use of "Junior" it appears that the "Junior" is
considered to be an official or at least semi-official part of the
person's name. In the example I'm giving, I suspect that these were
merely tags of convenience. It is even possible - likely, even - that
the three Edwards are cousins of one another, who happen to be
sufficiently separated in age that those tags are more likely to be
chosen than, for example, "the red-haired one".
Oleg Lego
>the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>[snip discussion of the rank/how-manyeth/which-number question]
>
>> No problem, but there's little more to say. Many speakers of other
>> languages seem to refuse to believe that this word doesn't exist in
>> English. English speakers don't notice that it's missing until it's
>> pointed out by non-native speakers.
>>
>> I looked through the AUE FAQ to see if there are any standard replies
>> but I couldn't find an entry relating to it.
>>
>> Donna, should we have this in the FAQ?
>
>I should first say that anyone can submit FAQ material to AUE Webmaster
>Mike Barnes.
>
>For my own standards for the Intro Docs (Mini-FAQs) -- yes, it qualifies
>under the frequently-asked requirement. And yes, it passes under the
>can-we-say-anything-sensible requirement. Your sentences above about
>foreign and English speakers could be half of it, the other half being a
>few suggestions of how to phrase such a question.
>
>I stumble on a technicality -- what to *call* such a FAQ section.
The Howmanyeth?
cybercypher
> Cyber...@gmail.com had it:
Eldest sons inherit (family wealth and responsibility); younger sons
don't necessarily.
Regardless of the practical value os such information, the kindship
names based on birth order still exists. Therefore, the information
is always of some value.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan.
"It has come to my attention that my opinions are not universally
shared." Scott Adams, The Dilbert Blog, 23 Jan 2007;
http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/
teranews charges a one-time US$3.95 setup fee
jinhyun
> On 31 Jan 2007 02:01:58 -0800, "jinhyun"
> 2 Each of two or more offspring of the same parent
> or parents. E20.
>
> Definition 1 is effectively obsolete. I don't think anyone
> nowadays would take "sibling" to mean relative.
>
> Note "parent OR parents". So a child is your sibling if you
> have the same father but not the same mother, the same
> mother but not the same father, OR the same father and same
> mother. For a given child, only one of those conditions
> applies, so there is no ambiguity.
>
> Your recent remarks are addressed to the question of asking
> the father. From the way you phrased the original question,
> it was clear that you had in mind asking the child, not one
> of the parents.
>
> "How many older siblings have you?" does the job with no
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hi. Not sure I follow. Let us say that you are your father's first
child but your mother's third(the earlier two off a previous
marriage). Then you have two older siblings from which it can't be
inferred that you are your father's third child which isn't true.Also,
my latest version of the required question( 'How many children had
your father had before you were born?') is still clearly addressed to
the child.
Eric Schwartz
> Hi. Not sure I follow. Let us say that you are your father's first
> child but your mother's third(the earlier two off a previous
> marriage). Then you have two older siblings from which it can't be
> inferred that you are your father's third child which isn't true.Also,
> my latest version of the required question( 'How many children had
> your father had before you were born?') is still clearly addressed to
> the child.
But why is the important statistic how many children your father had?
What if your father was the one who came to the marriage with
children? What if both parents had? Why on earth is this useful
information? It seems an odd sort of thing to ask, and maybe even a
touch rude, as if you're saying that any children your mother might
have had before her marriage to your father weren't important enough
to be counted.
-=Eric
Eric Schwartz
> What if your father was the one who came to the marriage with
> children?
That was supposed to be "What if your mother...."
-=Eric (oops)
jinhyun
Hi. No, there is no need at all to go into the circumstances under
which the question or its answer might be needful. The puzzle is of
academic interest only. I grant that it is an odd question. But, say,
in a detective story, it may come up. But I suppose you could do it
this way.Hercule Poirot may say to Lady Astor: 'Madmoiselle, what I
ask of you is of the greatest moment. Had your father any children
before you were born?' Lady Astor, once she had composed herself would
be unlikely to answer with a simple 'yes' or 'no' but pour out all the
details of her secret past. And Poirot would have the answer he
needed. But if you had to couch the question in a single sentence and
in less dramatic circumstances, 'How many children had
your father had before you were born?' would do, at least to elicit
the desired information.
TakenEvent
'I am seniormost' would be a complete answer which
> doesn't contain the information we want.
> Hi. Let us say that a fellow is the third of his father's children.
> What question need
> we ask him to elicit this information?
> I did think of 'Senioritywise, where do you stand among your father's
> This puzzle arises because in a certain Indian language this question
> is particularly easy to ask whereas it presents some difficulties in
> English. Thanks in advance for any replies.
>
>
Amongst your siblings, where do you fall regarding birth order?
jinhyun
> "jinhyun" <jinhyunsh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
As with my original (Senioritywise, where do you stand among your
father's children?), the problem is that 'I am the youngest' would be
a complete answer to your proposed question. Moreover you should say
'father's children' rather than siblings for reasons I have
illustrated before.
CyberCypher
[...]
> Amongst your siblings, where do you fall regarding birth order?
How about "where are you in the birth order"? I really dislike
"regarding". Nothing personal, mind you; just a style preference.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan.
"It has come to my attention that my opinions are not universally
shared." Scott Adams, The Dilbert Blog, 23 Jan 2007; http://
dilbertblog.typepad.com/
teranews is on server-overload at the moment
Amethyst Deceiver
> Also--at least here in America--you mainly consider your *mother's*
> children as your "real" siblings, and your father's children by other
> women as your "half" siblings. So the question about how many
> children your *father* had before you were born might even be
> considered rude, or at least too personal.
Here in the UK, half-siblings come from either parent. My god-daughter
has 5 half-siblings. Two are the offspring of her father's previous
marriage and three the offspring of her mother's previous marriage.
--
Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary
cybercypher
> DianeE wrote:
>
>> Also--at least here in America--you mainly consider your
>> *mother's* children as your "real" siblings, and your father's
>> children by other women as your "half" siblings.
This is claptrap. If your "siblings" do not have both the same mother
and father as you do and have only one biological parent in common
with you, they are strictly half-brothers and half-sisters no matter
which parent you share. If you have half-siblings living in the same
house as you and your mother or you and your father, they are
certainly more "real" to you than your half-siblings living elsewhere
with their other parent (i.e., not the one you're living with), but
there is no preference for maternal versus paternal half-siblings in
America. I don't know what "America" you live in, DianeE, but I do
know that my younger son's half-brother, who lives in the USA, my
older son's "real" brother despite their having different mothers.
>> So the question
>> about how many children your *father* had before you were born
>> might even be considered rude, or at least too personal.
>
> Here in the UK, half-siblings come from either parent.
The same is true in the USA, despite what DianeE wrote.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan.
"It has come to my attention that my opinions are not universally
shared." Scott Adams, The Dilbert Blog, 23 Jan 2007;
Sara Lorimer
> the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote
> > BTW, I don't think that primogeniture was of much interest to the
> > ordinary folk, unless to know who the next king was likely to be.
>
> Eldest sons inherit (family wealth and responsibility); younger sons
> don't necessarily.
>
Is that still true? I've been involved in only one inheritance, and that
was divided equally between my older sister and me. No sons to worry
about... no family wealth or responsibility either, come to think of it.
--
SML
Daniel al-Autistiqui
wrote:
>to the latter. In AmE, "Senior" and "Junior" (usually written as "Sr."
>and "Jr.") are used to distinguish fathers and sons with the same
>name, but this is rare in BrE (though not unknown -- one thinks (at
>least, one does if one is a chemist) of William Perkin Junior, a
>famous organic chemist of the 19th Century).
>
Why did you say "rare"?
daniel mcgrath
--
Daniel Gerard McGrath, a/k/a "Govende":
for e-mail replace "invalid" with "com"
Developmentally disabled;
has Autism (Pervasive Developmental Disorder),
Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder,
& periodic bouts of depression.
[This signature is under construction.]
cybercypher
Yep, still more (especially in the country and the mountains) or less
(in the big cities but only among the more cosmopolitan) true. When
my father-in-law died 12 years ago, his widow and two sons were the
beneficiaries of his insurance policy. They each got a third. His two
daughters, the elder siblings, got nothing. Daughters, married or
unmarried, are not part of the family in some ways: they belong to
their husband's family and become slaves to their m-i-l. Mothers,
especially those with no means of support, rely on their eldest sons
to take care of them. That's not practical in all cases, of course.
Some mothers have no sons, some have no useful eldest sons (the case
in my wife's family), and . . . well, there must be something else.
Often, though, all the children divvy up the financial responsbility
because the married ones cry poor if they have children to raise and
educate.
'Course, you aren't Taiwanese, Chinese, or Japanese, are you.
Sara Lorimer
> Yep, still more (especially in the country and the mountains) or less
> (in the big cities but only among the more cosmopolitan) true. When
> my father-in-law died 12 years ago, his widow and two sons were the
> beneficiaries of his insurance policy. They each got a third. His two
> daughters, the elder siblings, got nothing. Daughters, married or
> unmarried, are not part of the family in some ways: they belong to
> their husband's family and become slaves to their m-i-l. Mothers,
> especially those with no means of support, rely on their eldest sons
> to take care of them. That's not practical in all cases, of course.
> Some mothers have no sons, some have no useful eldest sons (the case
> in my wife's family), and . . . well, there must be something else.
> Often, though, all the children divvy up the financial responsbility
> because the married ones cry poor if they have children to raise and
> educate.
>
> 'Course, you aren't Taiwanese, Chinese, or Japanese, are you.
Nope. Nor rural, and my family doesn't own a business.
--
SML
Eric Schwartz
> Why did you say "rare"?
Daniel, let me save you a bit of time, and possibly some frustration:
whenever someone says 'rare', it's because they think it's the most
appropriate word to use for what they meant. That's always going to
be the answer, when you boil it down, and if you can just take it as
understood that whenever you ask "why 'rare'?" that someone will reply
"because that's what I meant", then you don't really need to ask the
question at all, do you?
-=Eric
Richard Bollard
wrote:
[...]
>I must disagree with you, mate. I don't think that that is a reason.
>The fact that the question is odd, which I grant, needn't at all imply
>that it should be difficult to express.
[...]
"Mate" can be a difficult word.
Your use of "mate" here doesn't (to my ear) carry the sort of tone you
probably want it to. It sounds to me like "sonny Jim", a sort of
non-friendly use of mate. There are other words that can be used in
this way.
If you wanted to get over the negative tone, it would be best not to
use the word at all. In speech, we can say "mate" in particular ways
to change its meaning. This won't work in writing.
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia
To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.
Archie Valparaiso
wrought:
Why did you say "boil"?
--
Archie Valparaiso
Tunbridge Wells borough residents are the
second best recyclers in Kent.
Richard Bollard
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:12:37 GMT, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
[...]
>When the interest to know does come up, I usually ask "Are you the
>oldest child in your family?" or "Are you the youngest child in your
>family?" That serves to prompt the other person to provide his or
>her birth order in the family.
[...]
"Where do you come in your family", while not snigger-proof, usually
works.
Richard Bollard
<fkem...@optonline.net> wrote:
>andy M wrote:
>
>> The bare fact is that in the cultures which use english as a first
>> language (and most which use english as a second or third language)
>> none of this "information" is of the slightest interest.
>>
>
>I think you are mistaken. It is of interest to many people to know the
>family relationships of their friends and acquaintances, and knowing
>someone's place in the "pecking order" of a family is part of that.
>
Agreed. It is of interest approaching "slightest interest". It is
usually a bit of trivia.
We may wonder if somebody is from a large family or, say, an only
child. It may be of interest to know if someone is the eldest child of
a brood or the youngest as this can influence their personality and
the way they interact with others (eldest child often seems to think
they are responsible for the world, youngest can have a chip on their
shoulder, and so on). Also middle children can be considered as a
separate type although precisely where in the middle they fall is
rarely relevant.
DianeE
"cybercypher" <dontb...@easypeasy.com> wrote in message
news:Xns98CBCC7...@66.150.105.47...
> ....I don't know what "America" you live in, DianeE, but I do
> know that my younger son's half-brother, who lives in the USA, my
> older son's "real" brother despite their having different mothers.
I live in New York City, and I have absolutely no idea what that sentence is
supposed to mean. There have to be some words missing from it.
DianeE
DianeE
> > DianeE wrote:
> >
> >> Also--at least here in America--you mainly consider your
> >> *mother's* children as your "real" siblings, and your father's
> >> children by other women as your "half" siblings.
>
> This is claptrap. If your "siblings" do not have both the same mother
> and father as you do and have only one biological parent in common
> with you, they are strictly half-brothers and half-sisters no matter
> which parent you share.
Well, of course, biologically, that is correct. I'm talking culturally. I
live in a culture where there are a lot of single mothers, and most children
don't live with their fathers.
DianeE
cybercypher
You're right. There's an "is" missingbetween "USA," and "my". If you
had thought a little, you might have been able to figure it out.
English is your native language, I assume. I can't be sure about
that, though, because of your weird kinship ideas.
cybercypher
Well, then, you ought to have mentioned the culture you live in. Your
culture is not -- let me repeat that for emphasis and as a hint that
your analysis of American culture is more than just a tad solipsistic
-- is not "American" culture, just the culture in your unfortunate
neighborhood.
DianeE
> "DianeE" <Tired...@SorryFolks.com> wrote
>
> >
> > "cybercypher" <dontb...@easypeasy.com> wrote in message
> > news:Xns98CBCC7...@66.150.105.47...
> >> "Amethyst Deceiver" <sp...@lindsayendell.co.uk> wrote
> >> > DianeE wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Also--at least here in America--you mainly consider your
> >> >> *mother's* children as your "real" siblings, and your father's
> >> >> children by other women as your "half" siblings.
> >>
> >> This is claptrap. If your "siblings" do not have both the same
> >> mother and father as you do and have only one biological parent
> >> in common with you, they are strictly half-brothers and
> >> half-sisters no matter which parent you share.
> > --------------
> > Well, of course, biologically, that is correct. I'm talking
> > culturally. I live in a culture where there are a lot of single
> > mothers, and most children don't live with their fathers.
>
> Well, then, you ought to have mentioned the culture you live in. Your
> culture is not -- let me repeat that for emphasis and as a hint that
> your analysis of American culture is more than just a tad solipsistic
> -- is not "American" culture, just the culture in your unfortunate
> neighborhood.
I have lived in NYC my entire life. It's part of America, like it or not,
and there are many places far more unfortunate. And furthermore I was not
claiming to *analyze* anything, but simply reporting what I have observed
around me over the course of a lifetime.
DianeE
DianeE
> "DianeE" <Tired...@SorryFolks.com> wrote
>
> >
> > "cybercypher" <dontb...@easypeasy.com> wrote in message
> > news:Xns98CBCC7...@66.150.105.47...
> >> ....I don't know what "America" you live in, DianeE, but I do
> >> know that my younger son's half-brother, who lives in the USA, my
> >> older son's "real" brother despite their having different
> >> mothers.
> > ----------------
> > I live in New York City, and I have absolutely no idea what that
> > sentence is supposed to mean. There have to be some words missing
> > from it.
>
> You're right. There's an "is" missingbetween "USA," and "my". If you
> had thought a little, you might have been able to figure it out.
> English is your native language, I assume.
It is, but I still can't figure out what you said. Your younger son's half
brother is your older son's real brother despite *whose* having different
mothers? Do you have two sons or three?
DianeE
cybercypher
> "cybercypher" <dontb...@easypeasy.com> wrote
>> "DianeE" <Tired...@SorryFolks.com> wrote
>> > "cybercypher" <dontb...@easypeasy.com> wrote
>> >> > DianeE wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Also--at least here in America--you mainly consider your
>> >> >> *mother's* children as your "real" siblings, and your
>> >> >> father's children by other women as your "half" siblings.
>> >>
>> >> This is claptrap. If your "siblings" do not have both the same
>> >> mother and father as you do and have only one biological
>> >> parent in common with you, they are strictly half-brothers and
>> >> half-sisters no matter which parent you share.
>> > --------------
>> > Well, of course, biologically, that is correct. I'm talking
>> > culturally. I live in a culture where there are a lot of
>> > single mothers, and most children don't live with their
>> > fathers.
>>
>> Well, then, you ought to have mentioned the culture you live in.
>> Your culture is not -- let me repeat that for emphasis and as a
>> hint that your analysis of American culture is more than just a
>> tad solipsistic -- is not "American" culture, just the culture in
>> your unfortunate neighborhood.
> -----------
> I have lived in NYC my entire life. It's part of America, like it
> or not,
I used to live, study, and work in NYC back in 1969-1972. I know what
it used to be like. I loved it, but it drove me mad because of all
the stress, the noise, the dirt, the crime, and the outrageous rents.
> and there are many places far more unfortunate.
Yep. Calcutta, Cairo, Mogadishu, Baghdad.
> And furthermore I was not claiming to *analyze* anything,
Therein lies your problem, I fear: uncritical.
> but simply reporting what I have observed around me over
> the course of a lifetime.
You might try leaving the neighborhood once in a while. Does great
things to broaden the experiential horizon.
cybercypher
I know it isn't fashionable any longer to interpret comparative
endings as indicating only two and superlative endings as indicating
at least three, but I still do. Therefore, I must have only two sons,
one who is older and one who is younger. I am the father of both, but
each son has a different mother.
My Own Grandpa
-----------------
Many many years ago
when I was twenty three,
I got married to a widow who
Was pretty as could be.
This widow had a grown-up daughter
Who had hair of red.
My father fell in love with her,
And soon the two were wed.
This made my dad my son-in-law
And changed my very life.
My daughter was my mother,
For she was my father's wife.
To complicate the matters worse,
Although it brought me joy,
I soon became the father
Of a bouncing baby boy.
My little baby then became
A brother-in-law to dad.
And so became my uncle,
Though it made me very sad.
For if he was my uncle,
Then that also made him brother
To the widow's grown-up daughter
Who, of course, was my step-mother.
Father's wife then had a son,
Who kept them on the run
And he became my grandson,
For he was my daughter's son.
My wife is now my mother's mother
And it makes me blue.
Because, although she is my wife,
She's my grandmother too.
If my wife is my grandmother,
Then I am her grandchild.
And every time I think of it,
It simply drives me wild.
For now I have become
The strangest case you ever saw.
As the husband of my grandmother,
I am my own grandpa!
Amethyst Deceiver
Who the children live with has nothing to do with the sibling
relationship. Lots of children in the UK who live in single or blended
families have half-siblings who live with their other parent. They are
still half-siblings and still referred to as such. Heck, I've got two
half-brothers out there that I've never met. They're still my
half-brothers.
DianeE
So who are the parents of your younger son's half brother? That's what
confuses me. If he is not your son, then his mother must be the mother of
your younger son. Then you say that Older and Younger have two different
mothers, so how is Younger's half brother related to Older?
DianeE
DianeE
"Amethyst Deceiver" <sp...@lindsayendell.co.uk> wrote in message
news:epuu7j$tp5$1...@fiasco.xenopsyche.net...
Of course they are. I never said they weren't. However I am saying (okay,
implying) that if you lived with them you would probably not *call* them
your half brothers any more, in everyday conversation. You would probably
*think of them* as your brothers.
DianeE
DianeE
>
> You might try leaving the neighborhood once in a while. Does great
> things to broaden the experiential horizon.
---------------
Er....that's what I'm doing *here*!
DianeE
Donna Richoux
> "cybercypher" <dontb...@easypeasy.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns98CB9FD...@66.150.105.47...
> > I know it isn't fashionable any longer to interpret comparative
> > endings as indicating only two and superlative endings as indicating
> > at least three, but I still do. Therefore, I must have only two sons,
> > one who is older and one who is younger. I am the father of both, but
> > each son has a different mother.
> >
> ----------------
> So who are the parents of your younger son's half brother? That's what
> confuses me. If he is not your son, then his mother must be the mother of
> your younger son. Then you say that Older and Younger have two different
> mothers, so how is Younger's half brother related to Older?
>
Yes, you do sound confused. Cybercypher didn't say that anyone wasn't
his son, and he's now said he has only two sons.
Just suppose Cybercypher married WomanA and had SonA, and later C.
married WomanB and had SonB. SonA and SonB are called (by some)
half-brothers. It fits.
"Sisters and brothers have I none, but that man's father is my father's
son." (Old riddle, while pointing to photograph.)
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Donna Richoux
I think we're all getting broader, the longer we sit here. Between the
computer chair and the couch...
Jacqui
> BTW, I don't think that primogeniture was of much interest to the
> ordinary folk, unless to know who the next king was likely to be.
Or the next squire or lord of the manor... (and thus by extension, the
next vicar in many cases). Whether that's your brother, cousin, rival,
romantic interest, landlord, or employer, it might well matter a good
deal to you if you live some time before 1918. (Even if you haven't a
hope of influencing the outcome, you might pray hard for an unpleasant
older son to break his neck hunting and 'allow' a younger kinder one
inherit, for instance.)
Jac
Ilpo
> Just suppose Cybercypher married WomanA and had SonA, and later C.
> married WomanB and had SonB. SonA and SonB are called (by some)
> half-brothers. It fits.
Does it? SonB's half-brother either _is_ SonA, or he must have
different father than SonA. In the latter case he has different mother
_and_ different father than SonA, in which case he has no blood
relationship to SonA. If C has only two sons, SonB's half brother
can't have same father with SonA unless he _is_ SonA. And if SonA is
SonB, he can't be his brother, real or imaginary, at the same time.
This is like solving a Sudoku, which I'm not very good at.
Ilpo
> And if SonA is SonB, he can't be his brother
Meant to say "if SonB's half brother is SonA, he can't be SonA's
brother...".
I told you I'm not very good at this!
CyberCypher
Yes, that's what I said in my first reply. If you live one parent
(with your mother, in your case) and half-siblings, those half-
siblings will seem to be more like "real" (i.e., 100% biological)
brothers and sisters than those who live with the other parent (their
father, but probably not, in your case).
It's necessary to say what you mean and mean what you say, whenever
possible.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan.
"It has come to my attention that my opinions are not universally
shared." Scott Adams, The Dilbert Blog, 23 Jan 2007;
http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/
teranews free server is overloaded agaiin
Amethyst Deceiver
It would appear that my friend's family is different. She talks of her
six children. Three with her previous husband, one with her current
husband, and two from her husband's previous marriage. The children
refer to each other as brothers and sisters. Her husband's two chldren
do not live with her but are still regarded by the other four as their
brother and sister.
Donna Richoux
> On Feb 2, 2:56 pm, t...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote:
> > Just suppose Cybercypher married WomanA and had SonA, and later C.
> > married WomanB and had SonB. SonA and SonB are called (by some)
> > half-brothers. It fits.
>
> Does it? SonB's half-brother either _is_ SonA,
Yes.
>or he must have
> different father than SonA.
I don't see where you get that from. I suppose you're trying to say that
WomanB could have had another son by a different man before she married
Cybercypher. But C. has assured you he was speaking of *his* sons.
Do you realize that Cybercypher is agreeing with your basic premise,
that half-siblings consider each other to be "real" siblings in many
cases? He just said it might be the father they share instead of the
mother.
>In the latter case he has different mother
> _and_ different father than SonA, in which case he has no blood
> relationship to SonA. If C has only two sons, SonB's half brother
> can't have same father with SonA unless he _is_ SonA.
He is. Why not? SonB's half brother is SonA.
>And if SonA is
> SonB,
Now that's silly. We all agree that nobody is their own brother.
>he can't be his brother, real or imaginary, at the same time.
>
> This is like solving a Sudoku, which I'm not very good at.
Stick around, Monty Hall and his doors will come along sooner or later.
Ilpo
In that case the sentence (quote from CC's earlier post, my
supplements in parenthesis) "my (C) younger son's (SonB) half-brother
(SonA), who lives in the USA, (is) my older son's (SonA's!) "real"
brother" doesn't make sense, does it?
>
> >or he must have
> > different father than SonA.
>
> I don't see where you get that from.
Same father leads to a contradiction. If half-brothers, different
fathers and same mother is the alternative, but that leads to another
contradiction. "My younger son's half-brother, who lives in the USA,
is his "real" brother" would make sense at least to me. See the
difference?
Of course I may be totally lost as well. That happens a lot.
Ilpo
athel...@yahoo
> Daniel al-Autistiqui <govend...@hotmail.invalid> writes:
> > Why did you say "rare"?
>
> Daniel, let me save you a bit of time, and possibly some frustration:
> whenever someone says 'rare', it's because they think it's the most
I was just thinking of an answer to Daniel's question when I saw that
you had already admirably expressed what I would have said. I said
that use of Sr. and Jr. in BrE was "rare" because it is rare (at least
in my experience) in BrE. What more can one possibly say about it?
a.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Hi. Let us say that a fellow is the third of his father's children.
> What question need
> we ask him to elicit this information?
> I did think of 'Senioritywise, where do you stand among your father's
> children?' but 'I am seniormost' would be a complete answer which
> doesn't contain the information we want.
While others have given you ways to ask precisely this question, since
you asked what question to use to "elicit" the information, I'd say
that the most common way would be to ask a related "yes/no" question,
either "Are you the oldest child in your family?" or "Do you have any
older brothers or sisters?" If the answer is "no", nearly all
speakers will go on to answer the question behind the question and
give either their ordinal position or the number of older siblings
that they have.
Indeed, not going on to give that information would often be
considered something of a "smartass" response, akin to answering "Do
you have any suggestions on where we should go for dinner?" with a
simple "Yes".
> This puzzle arises because in a certain Indian language this question
> is particularly easy to ask whereas it presents some difficulties in
> English. Thanks in advance for any replies.
I note that your question presupposes that the ordinal of interest
starts from the oldest. Would it be just as easy to ask in these
languages if you wanted to consdier the youngest to be first?
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |When you rewrite a compiler from
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |scratch, you sometimes fix things
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |you didn't know were broken.
| Larry Wall
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
R H Draney
>
>I note that your question presupposes that the ordinal of interest
>starts from the oldest. Would it be just as easy to ask in these
>languages if you wanted to consdier the youngest to be first?
That makes abstract sense, but it's unlikely to work in the real world, where
new elements of the set can come along at any time...you wouldn't want everyone
involved to have to change their numbers every time that happened, would
you?...r
--
"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Evan Kirshenbaum filted:
>>
>>I note that your question presupposes that the ordinal of interest
>>starts from the oldest. Would it be just as easy to ask in these
>>languages if you wanted to consdier the youngest to be first?
>
> That makes abstract sense, but it's unlikely to work in the real
> world, where new elements of the set can come along at any
> time...you wouldn't want everyone involved to have to change their
> numbers every time that happened, would you?...r
And yet we talk about "youngest" and "next-to-youngest", which change
in just this way. And "last" (as in "my last car") and
"next-to-last", which are 2nd and 3rd on this ordinal (with "current"
being first). And we ask questions like "How many moves ago did you
live in New York?" or how many bosses ago did you work for John?" We
couch our answers as cardinals rather than ordinals, but it's really
an ordinal notion.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Sorry, captain. Convenient
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |technobabble levels are dangerously
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |low.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
DianeE
"Donna Richoux" <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote in message
news:1hswun2.yjqf0e1vkg5nkN%tr...@euronet.nl...
Nonononono. The way I look at it: if it keeps me out of the kitchen, it
keeps me from eating.
DianeE
DianeE
"CyberCypher" <Cyber...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1170426970....@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
An elephant's faithful, one hundred percent.
DianeE
DianeE
And she calls those two her children, not her stepchildren? That is
unusual, to me.
DianeE
DianeE
What he said was:
<<...my younger son's half-brother, who lives in the USA, [is] my
older son's "real" brother despite their having different mothers.>>
You're saying, I think, that "my younger son's half-brother" *is* "my older
son," but how could he then also be "my older son's 'real' brother?" You
can be your own grandpa, but you can't be your own brother!
DianeE
Peter Moylan
> Evan Kirshenbaum filted:
>> I note that your question presupposes that the ordinal of interest
>> starts from the oldest. Would it be just as easy to ask in these
>> languages if you wanted to consdier the youngest to be first?
>
> That makes abstract sense, but it's unlikely to work in the real
> world, where new elements of the set can come along at any time...you
> wouldn't want everyone involved to have to change their numbers every
> time that happened, would you?...r
It doesn't matter. Evan's question remains: "Does your language have a
word for this concept?" with an implied "If not, why not?" The answer to
that second question is almost certainly "Because we've never felt the
need for such a word. That concept has no importance in our culture."
It's the same in English. We don't have the word that the original
poster asked for, and that's because we get on perfectly well without
it. For English speakers, it's a non-issue. The discovery that Eskimos
had a hundred different words to express family relationships would be
interesting, but would say nothing about the need for such words in
other languages.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet
address could disappear at any time.
cybercypher
[...]
> And she calls those two her children, not her stepchildren? That
> is unusual, to me.
My stepmother always calls me her son, not her stepson. I, on the other
hand, having acquired a stepmother five years after getting married,
call her my stepmother and address her as "Mary", not "Mother", which
appellation belongs to my biological mother, the one who raised me.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan.
"It has come to my attention that my opinions are not universally
shared." Scott Adams, The Dilbert Blog, 23 Jan 2007;
http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/
Donna Richoux
> ----------------
> What he said was:
> <<...my younger son's half-brother, who lives in the USA, [is] my
> older son's "real" brother despite their having different mothers.>>
>
> You're saying, I think, that "my younger son's half-brother" *is* "my older
> son," but how could he then also be "my older son's 'real' brother?" You
> can be your own grandpa, but you can't be your own brother!
>
Okay, I got it now. You are right that there's one too many references
in there. 'My younger son considers his half-brother, my older son who
lives in the USA, to be his 'real" brother.'
So it does work out to be like the "Sisters and brothers have I none"
riddle -- there's such a temptation to mix up the various people
referred to.
cybercypher
> DianeE <Tired...@SorryFolks.com> wrote:
>
>> ----------------
>> What he said was:
>> <<...my younger son's half-brother, who lives in the USA, [is] my
>> older son's "real" brother despite their having different
>> mothers.>>
>>
>> You're saying, I think, that "my younger son's half-brother" *is*
>> "my older son," but how could he then also be "my older son's
>> 'real' brother?" You can be your own grandpa, but you can't be
>> your own brother!
>
> Okay, I got it now. You are right that there's one too many
> references in there.
Nonsense. She's wrong and you are following her down the murky path.
> 'My younger son considers his half-brother,
> my older son who lives in the USA, to be his 'real" brother.'
>
> So it does work out to be like the "Sisters and brothers have I
> none" riddle -- there's such a temptation to mix up the various
> people referred to.
There's a temptation, but if you have a logical and analytical mind,
you will see quite clearly that ", my older son who lives in the
USA," is in apposition to "his half-brother". Take out the appositive
and you have this: "My younger son considers his half-brother to be
his 'real' brother". What's so difficult about that? Analytical minds
want to know.
DianeE
I'm sure I'm being very obtuse and literal-minded here, but I don't
understand where I'm wrong. You said:
<<...my younger son's half-brother, who lives in the USA, [is] my
older son's "real" brother despite their having different mothers.>>
If by "older" you actually meant "younger," then the sentence makes perfect
sense to me. Otherwise, it still doesn't.
DianeE
Donna Richoux
Take out "who lives in the USA" and you have "My younger son's
half-brother is my older son's real brother."
You eliminated the possibility of any third son being involved, so that
would be:
My younger son = SonB
[My younger son's half-brother] = SonA
Older son = SonA
[Older son's "real" brother] = SonB
If [My younger son's half-brother] is [Older son's "real" brother]
then SonA is SonB
which is absurd. Hence the original statement cannot be true.
Analytical enough for ya?
tinwhistler
wrote:
>
> Amongst your siblings, where do you fall regarding birth order?
A slight variation, for AmE:
"Where do you fit in your family birth order?"
Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego
cybercypher
You changed the verb from "considers X to be" to "is". That's
pisspoor analysis, IMHO. It twists the reality of the sentence.
Let me restate it by changer "younger son" and older son" with names:
"Willie [my younger son] considers David [his half-brother], David
[my older son who] lives in the USA, to be his 'real' brother." ==>
"Willie considers David---David lives in the USA---to be his 'real'
brother."
The appositive now needs m-dashes or parentheses, not commas.
When you learn how to analyze sentences by using the words actually
used by the writer instead of replacing crucial words with other
words to serve your preconceived notions of what you think you see on
the page, ask me again about your analytical abilities. I won't even
bother to respond to DianeE, who is far more confused thajn I
believed.
I'm quite frankly surprised at this gaffe of yours, Donna, but I
invite everyone who might be reading this thread to tell me whose
analysis is correct. If my brain has deteriorated to the point that I
am actually saying things that I don't mean or understand, I would
appreciate being told. I know that I sometimes do that, as does
everyone --- we can't all express ourselves perfectly every time ---
but I don't think I did it this time.
I will agree that my sentence was just a tad complex, but not too
complex for someone of your intellectual caliber and English ability,
Donna.
cybercypher
> "TakenEvent" <lightbulbsnick...@charter.net> wrote:
>
>> Amongst your siblings, where do you fall regarding birth order?
>
> A slight variation, for AmE:
>
> "Where do you fit in your family birth order?"
I fit it into every conversation I have about my family by beginning
with "I'm an only child"[1].
[1] A bald-faced lie. I have a younger sister, but we have been
estranged for 38 years, so she no longer exists for me. That makes me
The Older Sibling, by the bye, and not The Oldest Of Two Children In
My Family, as the illiterati are so fond of saying with perfectly
straight and innocent faces. I'll never understand how they keep
themselves from turning red around the ears and sweating profusely at
such cherubic stupidity.
rzed
<cybercypher wrote>
... but I do know that my younger son's half-brother, who lives in
the USA, my older son's "real" brother despite their having
different mothers.
<DianeE pointed out that the sentence was unclear. Cybercypher
then amended it graciously:>
You're right. There's an "is" missingbetween "USA," and "my". If
you had thought a little, you might have been able to figure it
out. English is your native language, I assume. I can't be sure
about that, though, because of your weird kinship ideas.
<DianeE pointed out that is still makes no actual sense even in
English, to which Donna agreed. Much merriment ensued, with
various rewrites and an eventual analysis by DianeE based on this
formulation:
...my younger son's half-brother, who lives in the USA,
[is] my older son's "real" brother despite their having
different mothers.
... which seems to be exactly what the amended version was. Now
cybercpyher writes as follows:
cybercypher <dontb...@easypeasy.com> wrote in
news:Xns98CD72C...@66.150.105.47:
[...]
> You changed the verb from "considers X to be" to "is". That's
> pisspoor analysis, IMHO. It twists the reality of the sentence.
>
[Twisted it back to what you said originally, Franke]
Since I've been invited, I'll chime in with a couple of
observations. As I read the sentence, it seems that Donna and
DianeE have it right. They (and I) read
"my younger son's half-brother, who lives in the USA,"
as a reference to cybercypher's older son, who, the sentence says
"[is] my older son's "real" brother".
I don't see how it can be read any other way. The confusion comes
from trying to understand how the older brother can be the older
brother's brother (disregarding fractions for (I hope) clarity).
I feel sure that if cybercypher had thought a little, he might
have been able to figure it out. English is his native language, I
believe.
In his capacity as an editor, rather than as its author, I wonder
whether he would have allowed such a sentence to pass unchanged? I
believe that the sentence means that in the eyes of the younger
son, the older son is his true brother. But that's not what it
says. When cybercypher learns how to analyze sentences by using
the words actually used by the writer instead of replacing crucial
words with other words to serve his preconceived notions of what
he thinks he sees on the page, then nobody will question his
analytical abilities.
--
rzed
Donna Richoux
> tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote
> >
> > Take out "who lives in the USA" and you have "My younger son's
> > half-brother is my older son's real brother."
> > You eliminated the possibility of any third son being involved, so
> > that would be:
> >
> > My younger son = SonB
> > [My younger son's half-brother] = SonA
> > Older son = SonA
> > [Older son's "real" brother] = SonB
> >
> > If [My younger son's half-brother] is [Older son's "real" brother]
> >
> > then SonA is SonB
> >
> > which is absurd. Hence the original statement cannot be true.
> >
> > Analytical enough for ya?
>
> You changed the verb from "considers X to be" to "is". That's
> pisspoor analysis, IMHO. It twists the reality of the sentence.
Au contraire, mon ami. I'm the one who put "considers" *into* the
sentence a couple of posts ago, when trying to suggest what you really
meant.
You didn't put "considers" in the original post. Your original post was
Message-ID: <Xns98CBCC7...@66.150.105.47>
I don't know what "America" you live in, DianeE, but I do know that
my younger son's half-brother, who lives in the USA, my older son's
"real" brother despite their having different mothers.
>
Notice complete absence of "considers" or even a verb. Somewhere along
the way Diane suggested the missing verb was "is". I can't find any
comment you made to that.
I stand by my analysis as representing the original logical confusion
that kicked off Diane's posts.
I have no problem understanding what you really meant. I got *that* even
before I grasped you hadn't literally said it.
> Let me restate it by changer "younger son" and older son" with names:
>
> "Willie [my younger son] considers David [his half-brother], David
> [my older son who] lives in the USA, to be his 'real' brother." ==>
Yup. I'm really glad your boys like each other.