Taresthesia?

[Jennifer Murphy]

One of the original Trivial Pursuit cards asks the question:

Q: What part of the body goes to sleep when you experience taresthesia?
A: The foot

I can't find this word in any doctionary I have or online.

Was this ever a word?

I can find paresthesia, which has a similar meaning, but is not
restricted to the foot.

[Peter Brooks]

It looks like their invention.

[Jennifer Murphy]

That's what it looked like to me, too.

[Jennifer Murphy]

On Mon, 20 May 2013 04:29:30 +0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>In message <ec4jp89m4c81pn1sj...@4ax.com>

><http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=4922>
>
>and
>
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictitious_entry>
>
>The word, if it existed, *does* mean that, but the word doesn't exist
>outside of Trivial Pursuit.

OK, thanks. During our game, I questioned a number of their answers.
After the game, I check a few of them out. It's amazing how many glaring
errors there are. I'd say the error rate is about 3-5%.

Q: What did Jean Marie Farina of Cologne, Germany, invent in 1850?
A: Eau de Cologne
It was in 1709.

Q: What fabric derives its name from the French for 'cord of the king'?
A: Corduroy
While the origin is uncertain, it was developed in England and had no
connection to France, where it is known as "velours � c�tes".

Q: What's the positive electrode of a battery called?
A: The anode
This is at least incomplete. The positive electrode of a *charging*
battery is the anode. In a discharging battery, it's the cathode.

Q: What constellation embraces Polaris, the North Star?
A: Little Dipper
The Little Dipper is not a constellation. It's an asterism within the
Ursa Minor constellation.

Q: What are the three kingdoms of nature?
A: Animal, vegetable, mineral
Silly. These are the categories in 20 questions.

Q: How many tusks does an Indian rhinoceros have?
A: Two
Wrong on two counts. It only has one and it's a horn, not a tusk.

Q: What is believed to be created when a star collapses?
A: A black hole
Only for massive stars. Smaller stars form neutron start or white
dwarfs.

Q: How many tentacles does a squid have?
A: Ten
They have only 2 tentacles, but they also have 8 arms for a total of 10
appendages.

Q: Which of the Wright brothers flew their plane, based on the toss of a
50-cent piece?
A: Orville
Wrong. Wilbur won the coin toss and made the first flight, lasting just
3 seconds and damaging the plane. Three days later, Orville took the
next turn and went 120 feet.


Q: What mammal lives the longest?
A: Man
The bowhead whale can live over 200 years.

Q: What tool did Charles Moncke invent?
A: The monkey wrench
Screw-adjustable wrenches and even the term "monkey wrench" were used at
least from 1840, long before Moncke (sometimes "Moncky"), a London
blacksmith, supposedly invented it in 1858. And in the UK, it is called
a spanner, not a monkey wrench.

Q: What is June's birthstone?
A: Agate
It's the pearl or the moonstone.

[Arcadian Rises]

On May 20, 5:23 am, Jennifer Murphy <JenMur...@jm.invalid> wrote:
> On Mon, 20 May 2013 04:29:30 +0000 (UTC), Lewis
>
>
>
>
>

> <g.kr...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> >In message <ec4jp89m4c81pn1sjns1vcb2k7ugkvu...@4ax.com>

> >  Jennifer Murphy <JenMur...@jm.invalid> wrote:
> >> One of the original Trivial Pursuit cards asks the question:
>
> >> Q: What part of the body goes to sleep when you experience taresthesia?
> >> A: The foot
>
> >> I can't find this word in any doctionary I have or online.
>
> >> Was this ever a word?
>
> >> I can find paresthesia, which has a similar meaning, but is not
> >> restricted to the foot.
>
> ><http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=4922>
>
> >and
>
> ><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictitious_entry>
>
> >The word, if it existed, *does* mean that, but the word doesn't exist
> >outside of Trivial Pursuit.
>
> OK, thanks. During our game, I questioned a number of their answers.
> After the game, I check a few of them out. It's amazing how many glaring
> errors there are. I'd say the error rate is about 3-5%.
>
> Q: What did Jean Marie Farina of Cologne, Germany, invent in 1850?
> A: Eau de Cologne
> It was in 1709.
>
> Q: What fabric derives its name from the French for 'cord of the king'?
> A: Corduroy
> While the origin is uncertain, it was developed in England and had no

> connection to France, where it is known as "velours à côtes".

> It's the pearl or the moonstone.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I believe there should be a deontological code for trivia pursuit and
crossword puzzle authors. They should observe those ethical norms and
be held responsible for malpractice if they break those rules.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

OK, but the question doesn't ask for a connection with France, but with
a name that means that in French, which is OK (if we accept "cord" as
being derived from "cordon").

> and had no
> connection to France, where it is known as "velours � c�tes".
>
> Q: What's the positive electrode of a battery called?
> A: The anode
> This is at least incomplete. The positive electrode of a *charging*
> battery is the anode. In a discharging battery, it's the cathode.
>
> Q: What constellation embraces Polaris, the North Star?
> A: Little Dipper
> The Little Dipper is not a constellation. It's an asterism within the
> Ursa Minor constellation.

Arguable, as the names of constellations are arbitrary. You can give
any name you like to any set of stars you like and call it a

constellation.
>
> Q: What are the three kingdoms of nature?
> A: Animal, vegetable, mineral
> Silly. These are the categories in 20 questions.

Very silly.

--
athel

[James Silverton]

On 5/20/2013 10:36 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2013-05-20 11:23:49 +0200, Jennifer Murphy <JenM...@jm.invalid> said:
>
>> On Mon, 20 May 2013 04:29:30 +0000 (UTC), Lewis
>> <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <ec4jp89m4c81pn1sj...@4ax.com>
>>> Jennifer Murphy <JenM...@jm.invalid> wrote:
>>>> One of the original Trivial Pursuit cards asks the question:
>>>
>>>> Q: What part of the body goes to sleep when you experience taresthesia?
>>>> A: The foot
>>>
>>>> I can't find this word in any doctionary I have or online.
>>>
>>>> Was this ever a word?
>>>
>>>> I can find paresthesia, which has a similar meaning, but is not
>>>> restricted to the foot.
>>>
>>> <http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=4922>
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictitious_entry>
>>>
>>> The word, if it existed, *does* mean that, but the word doesn't exist
>>> outside of Trivial Pursuit.

It is findable by Google but the OED does not have it and I am glad to
forget it and I do not accept that it is a "scientific" word for your
foot "going to sleep".

--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not." in Reply To.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2013-05-20 16:52:37 +0200, James Silverton
<not.jim....@verizon.net> said:

> On 5/20/2013 10:36 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden didn't write any of what
> you quoted:

athel

[Jennifer Murphy]

Au contraire. It asks for a fabric whose name was derived from the
French 'cord of the king'. Most sources say this is baloney. Here's one:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=corduroy

>> and had no
>> connection to France, where it is known as "velours � c�tes".
>>
>> Q: What's the positive electrode of a battery called?
>> A: The anode
>> This is at least incomplete. The positive electrode of a *charging*
>> battery is the anode. In a discharging battery, it's the cathode.
>>
>> Q: What constellation embraces Polaris, the North Star?
>> A: Little Dipper
>> The Little Dipper is not a constellation. It's an asterism within the
>> Ursa Minor constellation.
>
>Arguable, as the names of constellations are arbitrary. You can give
>any name you like to any set of stars you like and call it a
>constellation.

I guess I can call pig a cow, but I'll not get any milk.

A constellation is an area of the sky, not a collection of stars. An
asterism is a collection of stars. The Little Dipper is an asterism. It
cannot be a constellation. One could define an ad hoc constellation with
tighjt boindaries around the Little Dipper, I suppose, but it would not
be recognized by any astronomical body and it would also include any
other, less luminous, stars within that area.

>> Q: What are the three kingdoms of nature?
>> A: Animal, vegetable, mineral
>> Silly. These are the categories in 20 questions.
>
>Very silly.

Indeed

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Mon, 20 May 2013 02:23:49 -0700, Jennifer Murphy
<JenM...@jm.invalid> wrote:

>
>Q: What tool did Charles Moncke invent?
>A: The monkey wrench
>Screw-adjustable wrenches and even the term "monkey wrench" were used at
>least from 1840, long before Moncke (sometimes "Moncky"), a London
>blacksmith, supposedly invented it in 1858. And in the UK, it is called
>a spanner, not a monkey wrench.

In the UK the term "monkey wrench" is understood. It is not just a
"spanner", it is specifically an "adjustable spanner".

A search at this UK website for monkey wrench yields results for
various types of adjustable spanners and wrenches:
http://www.screwfix.com/


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Sam Plusnet]

In article <5lukp8lel8208vkp4...@4ax.com>,
ma...@peterduncanson.net says...

> In the UK the term "monkey wrench" is understood.
>
>

True.

In much the same way that "Sidewalk" and "Gasoline" would be understood
in the UK.


--
Sam

[John Briggs]

On 20/05/2013 10:23, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
>
> Q: What are the three kingdoms of nature?
> A: Animal, vegetable, mineral
> Silly. These are the categories in 20 questions.

No, that's correct - or rather it was 200 years ago. Natural history got
divided up: Animal and vegetable went to biology and mineral
[mineralogy] went to geology - with palaeontology hovering between the two.

> Q: What tool did Charles Moncke invent?
> A: The monkey wrench
> Screw-adjustable wrenches and even the term "monkey wrench" were used at
> least from 1840, long before Moncke (sometimes "Moncky"), a London
> blacksmith, supposedly invented it in 1858. And in the UK, it is called
> a spanner, not a monkey wrench.

An *adjustable* spanner. Although, strictly speaking, a monkey wrench is
gas grips in the UK. If you are thinking of a pipe wrench, that is
called "Stillsons"
--
John Briggs

[Odysseus]

In article <avuqmq...@mid.individual.net>,
Athel Cornish-Bowden <athe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>

> > Q: What constellation embraces Polaris, the North Star?
> > A: Little Dipper
> > The Little Dipper is not a constellation. It's an asterism within the
> > Ursa Minor constellation.
>
> Arguable, as the names of constellations are arbitrary. You can give
> any name you like to any set of stars you like and call it a
> constellation.

Historically, yes; colloquially, perhaps. But in astronomical jargon the
scope(*) of "constellation" is restricted to one of the 88 regions
defined by international convention, with definite boundaries and
comprising the entire celestial sphere. Any apparent grouping of stars
is an "asterism", and this term includes the traditional figures (with
the newer ones, mostly in the southern celestial hemisphere) around
which the boundaries were drawn in the XIX century. Accordingly the Big
Dipper (AKA Charles's Wain, the Plough &c.) is an asterism, and so is
the Great Bear -- a set of stars including those marking the head, legs
and whatever other details one imagines. OTOH the official constellation
Ursa Major is a region of the celestial sphere, vaguely reminiscent of
Texas in shape but with rectilinear boundaries.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ursa_Major_IAU.svg>

That said, although trivia games generally require _verbatim_ responses,
and the A: above is strictly incorrect in astronomical terminology, it
does serve to identify the wanted constellation unambiguously, through a
kind of metonymy.


* NPI at the time of writing.

--
Odysseus

[R H Draney]

Odysseus filted:

>
>In article <avuqmq...@mid.individual.net>,
> Athel Cornish-Bowden <athe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> > Q: What constellation embraces Polaris, the North Star?
>> > A: Little Dipper
>> > The Little Dipper is not a constellation. It's an asterism within the
>> > Ursa Minor constellation.
>>
>> Arguable, as the names of constellations are arbitrary. You can give
>> any name you like to any set of stars you like and call it a
>> constellation.
>
>Historically, yes; colloquially, perhaps. But in astronomical jargon the
>scope(*) of "constellation" is restricted to one of the 88 regions
>defined by international convention, with definite boundaries and
>comprising the entire celestial sphere. Any apparent grouping of stars
>is an "asterism", and this term includes the traditional figures (with
>the newer ones, mostly in the southern celestial hemisphere) around
>which the boundaries were drawn in the XIX century. Accordingly the Big
>Dipper (AKA Charles's Wain, the Plough &c.) is an asterism, and so is
>the Great Bear -- a set of stars including those marking the head, legs
>and whatever other details one imagines. OTOH the official constellation
>Ursa Major is a region of the celestial sphere, vaguely reminiscent of
>Texas in shape but with rectilinear boundaries.

Etymologically though, a "constellation" is a "group of stars taken
together"...as for asterisms, other than the two Dippers the only one I'm
familiar with is the Great Square of Pegasus, which straddles parts of both that
constellation and the neighboring Andromeda....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Peter Brooks]

On May 20, 10:18 pm, John Briggs <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> On 20/05/2013 10:23, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
>  >
>
> > Q: What are the three kingdoms of nature?
> > A: Animal, vegetable, mineral
> > Silly. These are the categories in 20 questions.
>
> No, that's correct - or rather it was 200 years ago. Natural history got
> divided up: Animal and vegetable went to biology and mineral
> [mineralogy] went to geology - with palaeontology hovering between the two.
>

Zoology and botany, rather than biology. 'Biology' was only coined in
the early 1800s, whilst 'botany' is from 1696 and 'zoology' from 1669
(according to the OED).

[Odysseus]

In article <kneek...@drn.newsguy.com>,
R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:

<snip>

> Etymologically though, a "constellation" is a "group of stars taken
> together"...as for asterisms, other than the two Dippers the only one
> I'm familiar with is the Great Square of Pegasus, which straddles
> parts of both that constellation and the neighboring Andromeda....r

Oh, there are a great many commonly recognized by stargazers, in
addition to those on which the constellations were based: some very
large, like the Summer Triangle (Vega, Deneb, and Altair), some very
small, like the Coat-hanger (part of Al-Sufi's or Brocchi's Cluster) in
Vulpecula. Just south of the Square of Pegasus is the Circlet of Pisces,
a pentagon that's supposed to represent one of the two zodiacal Fishes.
Not far from there, in Aquarius, is the Water Jar, four stars in a
Y-shaped arrangement. There's a small trapezoid-with-a-tail in
Sagittarius known as the Milk Dipper, most of its stars being included
in a larger group called the Teapot. And so on.

Not to mention the myriad figures described in the star-lore of
non-Western cultures ...

Of course you're right about the etymology, and that meaning remained
apt until well into the modern era. Earlier sources routinely describe
the location of faint or transient objects as near, between, above,
below, preceding, or following named constellations, showing that the
latter were treated as groupings separated by gaps.

--
Odysseus

[John Briggs]

Well, yes - but they are biology *now*. Botany (vegetable) and Zoology
(animal) were happily part of Natural History. [The early 1800s *is* 200
years ago!]
--
John Briggs

[David B]

"John Briggs" wrote in message news:pyvmt.9120$MQ7...@newsfe18.iad...

>
> > Q: What tool did Charles Moncke invent?
> > A: The monkey wrench
> > Screw-adjustable wrenches and even the term "monkey wrench" were used at
> > least from 1840, long before Moncke (sometimes "Moncky"), a London
> > blacksmith, supposedly invented it in 1858. And in the UK, it is called
> > a spanner, not a monkey wrench.
>
> An *adjustable* spanner. Although, strictly speaking, a monkey wrench is
> gas grips in the UK. If you are thinking of a pipe wrench, that is called
> "Stillsons"
>

Stillsons are a trade name for a monkey wrench.
They tighten and grip as you put pressure on them.

I've not heard the term 'gas grips' and I'm in the trade (sprinkler systems
designer).

D

[Stan Brown]

On Mon, 20 May 2013 02:23:49 -0700, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
> On Mon, 20 May 2013 04:29:30 +0000 (UTC), Lewis
> <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> >The word, if it existed, *does* mean that, but the word doesn't exist
> >outside of Trivial Pursuit.
>
> OK, thanks. During our game, I questioned a number of their answers.
> After the game, I check a few of them out. It's amazing how many glaring
> errors there are. I'd say the error rate is about 3-5%.

"It was the Moops!"



--
"The difference between the /almost right/ word and the /right/ word
is ... the difference between the lightning-bug and the lightning."
--Mark Twain
Stan Brown, Tompkins County, NY, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com

[Stan Brown]

On Mon, 20 May 2013 10:52:37 -0400, James Silverton wrote:
> It is findable by Google but the OED does not have it and I am glad to
> forget it and I do not accept that it is a "scientific" word for your
> foot "going to sleep".
>

Could it be simply a mishearing of "paresthesia"? P and T are not
that far apart. In Bergman's version of /The Magic Flute/, I thought
that Papageno was saying "nej pack" rather than "nej tack".

[Jennifer Murphy]

On Mon, 20 May 2013 21:18:22 +0100, John Briggs
<john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>On 20/05/2013 10:23, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
> >
>> Q: What are the three kingdoms of nature?
>> A: Animal, vegetable, mineral
>> Silly. These are the categories in 20 questions.
>
>No, that's correct - or rather it was 200 years ago. Natural history got
>divided up: Animal and vegetable went to biology and mineral
>[mineralogy] went to geology - with palaeontology hovering between the two.

Do you really think the TP authors were referring to the taxonomy of 200
years ago?

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Wed, 22 May 2013 01:05:23 +0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>In message <r2mjp8llfq1p6ptqr...@4ax.com>

> Jennifer Murphy <JenM...@jm.invalid> wrote:
>> Q: How many tentacles does a squid have?
>> A: Ten
>> They have only 2 tentacles, but they also have 8 arms for a total of 10
>> appendages.
>

>Oh? I've never heard that distinction. I know they have two that are
>longer, but what makes the 8 arms not tentacles?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalopod_arm

In the scientific literature, a cephalopod arm is often treated as
distinct from a tentacle, though the terms are sometimes used
interchangeably. Generally, arms have suckers along most of their
length, as opposed to tentacles, which have suckers only near their
ends. Barring a few exceptions, octopuses have eight arms and no
tentacles, while squid and cuttlefish have eight arms and two
tentacles. The limbs of nautiluses, which number around 90 and lack
suckers altogether, are called tentacles.

The tentacles of Decapodiformes are thought to be derived from the
fourth arm pair of the ancestral coleoid, but the term arms IV is
used to refer to the subsequent, ventral arm pair in modern animals
(which is evolutionarily the fifth arm pair).

[Iain Archer]

Peter Brooks wrote on Sun, 19 May 2013 at 21:19:15 GMT

I doubt that there's any -esthesia word that refers to a specific part
of the bdy. I've not found one. Those that there are all refer to a
more generic aspect of feeling, though I suppose that "graphesthesia" --
ability to recognise writing by touch (on the skin) -- comes closest.
Query: have any experiments been done with writing by touch on any body
tissue other than skin?

>It looks like their invention.
>

Like the fictional places inserted in some maps to help detect copying?
--
Iain Archer

[Jennifer Murphy]

On Tue, 21 May 2013 21:53:49 -0400, Stan Brown
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>On Mon, 20 May 2013 10:52:37 -0400, James Silverton wrote:
>> It is findable by Google but the OED does not have it and I am glad to
>> forget it and I do not accept that it is a "scientific" word for your
>> foot "going to sleep".
>>
>
>Could it be simply a mishearing of "paresthesia"? P and T are not
>that far apart. In Bergman's version of /The Magic Flute/, I thought
>that Papageno was saying "nej pack" rather than "nej tack".

If you are referring to me, no. I have the actual card in front of me.
Here's an image:

http://tinypic.com/r/6iww08/5

If you are referring to the author of the game, or possibly the printer,
I have no idea. But it's still an error in their research or QA.

I checked quite a few of the cards. The error rate is at least 2-3% . If
you count typos and spelling errors, especially of names, it's probably
more like 5-8%.

Apparently, the originator of the game or the corporation that bought
it, just stole the information wholesale without bothering to do even
the most rudimentary of sanity checks. According to this Wikipedia
article, about 25% of the questions were lifted verbatim including
errors. The court held that facts cannot be copyrighted. Neither can
false information, apparently.

"In October 1984, Fred L. Worth, author of The Trivia Encyclopedia,
Super Trivia, and Super Trivia II, filed a $300 million lawsuit against
the distributors of Trivial Pursuit. He claimed that more than a quarter
of the questions in the game's Genus Edition had been taken from his
books, even to the point of reproducing typographical errors and
deliberately placed misinformation. One of the questions in Trivial
Pursuit was "What was Columbo's first name?" with the answer "Philip".
That information had been fabricated to catch anyone who might try to
violate his copyright

"The inventors of Trivial Pursuit acknowledged that Worth's books were
among their sources, but argued that this was not improper and that
facts are not protected by copyright. The district court judge agreed,
ruling in favor of the Trivial Pursuit inventors. The decision was
appealed, and in September 1987 the United States Court of Appeals for
the Ninth Circuit upheld the ruling. Worth asked the Supreme Court of
the United States to review the case, but the Court declined, denying
certiorari in March 1988.

[Jennifer Murphy]

If it was inserted to detect copying, it was by the author of the
original work from whom the TP authors stole the data.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trivial_Pursuit#Fred_Worth_lawsuit.

[Jennifer Murphy]

On Wed, 22 May 2013 01:05:23 +0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>In message <r2mjp8llfq1p6ptqr...@4ax.com>
> Jennifer Murphy <JenM...@jm.invalid> wrote:

>> Q: How many tentacles does a squid have?
>> A: Ten
>> They have only 2 tentacles, but they also have 8 arms for a total of 10
>> appendages.
>

>Oh? I've never heard that distinction. I know they have two that are
>longer, but what makes the 8 arms not tentacles?
>

>> Q: Which of the Wright brothers flew their plane, based on the toss of a
>> 50-cent piece?
>> A: Orville
>> Wrong. Wilbur won the coin toss and made the first flight, lasting just
>> 3 seconds and damaging the plane. Three days later, Orville took the
>> next turn and went 120 feet.
>

>I think in this case it is obvious they were talking about *the* flight.

I doubt "they" were talking about anything in particular. They just
lifted the factoid from someone else's work without examination.

But even if you are right, which flight was "the" flight? As documented
in this Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_Flyer,
there were 5 flights in all. On December 14, 1903, the brothers tossed a
coin to see who would make the first flight. Wilbur won. He pulled up
too quickly, stalled, and crashed, causing minor damage. Three days
later, after repairs, they made four more flights, alternating who was
the pilot.

1. 12/14/03, Wilbur, 3 seconds.
2. 12/17/03, Orville, 120 feet.
3. 12/17/03, Wilbur, 175 feet.
4. 12/17/03, Orville, 200 feet.
5. 12/17/03, Wilbur, 852 feet in 59 seconds.

After the last flight, a gust of wind turned the plane over and over
damaging it beyond repair.

I say the TP answer to the question is wrong, but it is certainly at
least incomplete and misleading.

[Iain Archer]

Jennifer Murphy <JenM...@jm.invalid> wrote on Wed, 22 May 2013 at
07:44:11:

Yes, thanks. I looked at that after reading your parallel post, and
have had a look at the Court of Appeal judgment too.

I feel a bit sorry for Fred Worth, despite my belief in the freeness of
information. But, as the judgement quotes: "The discovery of a fact,
regardless of the quantum of labor and expense, is simply not the work
of an author."; and " 'sweat of a researcher's brow' does not merit
copyright protection."
--
Iain Archer

[Jennifer Murphy]

On Wed, 22 May 2013 17:24:55 +0100, Iain Archer <i...@montaigne.me.uk>
wrote:

In my opinion, the court erred in this ruling. I am not an attorney, but
I have had some experience with copyright law. I know of a case where
someone wanted to develop a vocabulary program. The question arose as to
where to obtaon the definitions. Nowadays, many dictionaries are online
where the definituons are easily pirated.

The opinion of a couple of parent attorneys was that word definitions
are part of the language and cannot be copyrighted. However, the body of
work that is a particular dictionary can be. Therefore, the developer
was free to use the definitions in a published dictionary, but could not
copy the work wholesale. The suggestion was to consult at least two, and
preferebly three, sources and combine the definitions so that none are
quoted verbatim. Alternatively, seek to license the definitions.

It appears that the TP authors copied wholesale and did little or no
original work at all. I consider that at least shameful and I think it
should be actionable. The game has reportedly earned hundreds of
millions of dollars. I would think the corporate parasites could have
tossed a million or so to Mr. Worth, who would probably have settled.

[Stan Brown]

On Wed, 22 May 2013 07:34:41 -0700, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
> "In October 1984, Fred L. Worth, author of The Trivia Encyclopedia,
> Super Trivia, and Super Trivia II, filed a $300 million lawsuit against
> the distributors of Trivial Pursuit. He claimed that more than a quarter
> of the questions in the game's Genus Edition
>

And what's up with "Genus Edition"? Is there any possible way to
parse that and have it be correct English?

[Stan Brown]

On Thu, 23 May 2013 01:10:30 +0000 (UTC), Lewis wrote:
>
> In message <MPG.2c0715d12...@news.individual.net>

> Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> > On Wed, 22 May 2013 07:34:41 -0700, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
> >> "In October 1984, Fred L. Worth, author of The Trivia Encyclopedia,
> >> Super Trivia, and Super Trivia II, filed a $300 million lawsuit against
> >> the distributors of Trivial Pursuit. He claimed that more than a quarter
> >> of the questions in the game's Genus Edition
>
> > And what's up with "Genus Edition"? Is there any possible way to
> > parse that and have it be correct English?
>

> The name of the edition is "Genus"

Well, yes, but what does that _mean_? Or rather, given what "genus"
_does_ mean, how is it an appropriate name for an edition?

[R H Draney]

Stan Brown filted:

>
>On Thu, 23 May 2013 01:10:30 +0000 (UTC), Lewis wrote:
>>
>> In message <MPG.2c0715d12...@news.individual.net>
>> Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>> > On Wed, 22 May 2013 07:34:41 -0700, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
>> >> "In October 1984, Fred L. Worth, author of The Trivia Encyclopedia,
>> >> Super Trivia, and Super Trivia II, filed a $300 million lawsuit against
>> >> the distributors of Trivial Pursuit. He claimed that more than a quarter
>> >> of the questions in the game's Genus Edition
>>
>> > And what's up with "Genus Edition"? Is there any possible way to
>> > parse that and have it be correct English?
>>
>> The name of the edition is "Genus"
>
>Well, yes, but what does that _mean_? Or rather, given what "genus"
>_does_ mean, how is it an appropriate name for an edition?

It's just a generic label....r

[John Briggs]

In so far as it is still part of general knowledge - yes, of course. Why
do you imagine that those categories are used in 20 questions?
--
John Briggs

[Jennifer Murphy]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 15:36:22 +0100, John Briggs

<john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>On 22/05/2013 06:54, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
>> On Mon, 20 May 2013 21:18:22 +0100, John Briggs
>> <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>> On 20/05/2013 10:23, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Q: What are the three kingdoms of nature?
>>>> A: Animal, vegetable, mineral
>>>> Silly. These are the categories in 20 questions.
>>>
>>> No, that's correct - or rather it was 200 years ago. Natural history got
>>> divided up: Animal and vegetable went to biology and mineral
>>> [mineralogy] went to geology - with palaeontology hovering between the two.
>>
>> Do you really think the TP authors were referring to the taxonomy of 200
>> years ago?
>
>In so far as it is still part of general knowledge - yes, of course.

But, of course, it's not. I went out 200 years ago.

>Why do you imagine that those categories are used in 20 questions?

Very silly. If you are willing to compare a children's game to a
scientific classification system, there's no limit to the silliness.
Next you will be saying that the "kingdoms" at Disneyland had a
scientific basis. If memory serves, they used to be Fantasyland,
Adventureland, Frontierland, Tomorrowland, and Main Street.

But I think you just being oppositional.

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 15:45:15 -0700, Jennifer Murphy
<JenM...@jm.invalid> wrote:

>On Fri, 24 May 2013 15:36:22 +0100, John Briggs
><john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>On 22/05/2013 06:54, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
>>> On Mon, 20 May 2013 21:18:22 +0100, John Briggs
>>> <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>>> On 20/05/2013 10:23, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Q: What are the three kingdoms of nature?
>>>>> A: Animal, vegetable, mineral
>>>>> Silly. These are the categories in 20 questions.
>>>>
>>>> No, that's correct - or rather it was 200 years ago. Natural history got
>>>> divided up: Animal and vegetable went to biology and mineral
>>>> [mineralogy] went to geology - with palaeontology hovering between the two.
>>>
>>> Do you really think the TP authors were referring to the taxonomy of 200
>>> years ago?
>>
>>In so far as it is still part of general knowledge - yes, of course.
>
>But, of course, it's not. I went out 200 years ago.

This is not the place to complain about how infrequently you date.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 15:45:15 -0700, Jennifer Murphy
<JenM...@jm.invalid> wrote:

>On Fri, 24 May 2013 15:36:22 +0100, John Briggs
><john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>On 22/05/2013 06:54, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
>>> On Mon, 20 May 2013 21:18:22 +0100, John Briggs
>>> <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>>> On 20/05/2013 10:23, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Q: What are the three kingdoms of nature?
>>>>> A: Animal, vegetable, mineral
>>>>> Silly. These are the categories in 20 questions.
>>>>
>>>> No, that's correct - or rather it was 200 years ago. Natural history got
>>>> divided up: Animal and vegetable went to biology and mineral
>>>> [mineralogy] went to geology - with palaeontology hovering between the two.
>>>
>>> Do you really think the TP authors were referring to the taxonomy of 200
>>> years ago?
>>
>>In so far as it is still part of general knowledge - yes, of course.
>
>But, of course, it's not. I went out 200 years ago.
>
>>Why do you imagine that those categories are used in 20 questions?
>
>Very silly. If you are willing to compare a children's game to a
>scientific classification system, there's no limit to the silliness.

I'm surprised that you describe Twenty Questions as a children's game.
Here in the UK, I, and I suspect many others, know it primarily as a
radio and TV show played by adults. I have never met it as a children's
game. Others may have done.

>Next you will be saying that the "kingdoms" at Disneyland had a
>scientific basis. If memory serves, they used to be Fantasyland,
>Adventureland, Frontierland, Tomorrowland, and Main Street.
>
>But I think you just being oppositional.

In science the word "Kingdom" is an arbitrary description.

The game Twenty Questions uses the scientific classification of the
"three kingdoms of nature" used by the scientist Carl Linnaeus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systema_Naturae#Taxonomy

Taxonomy

In his Imperium Natur�, Linnaeus established three kingdoms, namely
Regnum Animale, Regnum Vegetabile and Regnum Lapideum. This
approach, the Animal, Vegetable and Mineral Kingdoms, survives until
today in the popular mind, notably in the form of parlour games: "Is
it animal, vegetable or mineral?".
....

Biological science divides organisms into five kingdoms:
http://www.fcps.edu/islandcreekes/ecology/classification_group_expla.htm

Animal Kingdom: organisms that usually move around and find their
own food.

Plant Kingdom: organisms that make their own food and do not
actively move around.

Fungi Kingdom: organisms that absorb food from living and non-living
things.

Protist Kingdom: organisms that have single, complex cells.

Moneran Kingdom: organisms that have single, simple cells.

Those 5 kingdoms are not described as "kingdoms of nature".

As far as I know "Animal, Vegetable and Mineral" are still the only
groupings known as the Three Kingdoms of Nature, even though this
terminology is no longer used in science. It may be a historic
classification system but it has not be replaced by a newer version of
"Three Kingdoms of Nature".

Therefore "Animal, vegetable, mineral" would be the correct answer to
"What are the three kingdoms of nature?".

[Tony Cooper]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 10:17:44 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

>I'm surprised that you describe Twenty Questions as a children's game.
>Here in the UK, I, and I suspect many others, know it primarily as a
>radio and TV show played by adults. I have never met it as a children's
>game. Others may have done.

I would not describe it as a children's game, but would describe it as
a game that can be played with children. We often play 20 Questions
with the grandchildren at the dinner table when they're over.

It's a good way of teaching them logical process. If you say "I'm
thinking of an animal with hard feet", it teaches them to reduce the
pool of candidates by questions instead of blurting out answers.

(We don't try to get too technical. Hence, "hard feet".)

[Whiskers]

I remember the wireless programme well, on the Home Service during the
1950s. I was only a child, but I found it entertaining, educational, and
informative - very Reithian.

There are three broadcasts available on the BBC iPlayer, for those who have
access to it <http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p017bdl3/episodes/guide>
(BBC - Animal, Vegetable, Mineral? - Episode guide).

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

[R H Draney]

Tony Cooper filted:

If you ever feel like changing it up, teach them about intersecting sets with
what I call the Venn Diagram game...you name three characteristics, and they
have to come up with an example of each of the eight combinations of those
characteristics...for example, you might name "black things", "living things",
"things with four legs"...a valid answer-set might include "panther" as
belonging to all three, "book" belonging to none, and such things as "crow",
"pool table", "cast-iron skillet" among the other slots....r

[Bob Martin]

in 1972886 20130525 161613 Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com> wrote:
>On 2013-05-25, Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 May 2013 10:17:44 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
>> <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>>
>>>I'm surprised that you describe Twenty Questions as a children's game.
>>>Here in the UK, I, and I suspect many others, know it primarily as a
>>>radio and TV show played by adults. I have never met it as a children's
>>>game. Others may have done.
>>
>> I would not describe it as a children's game, but would describe it as
>> a game that can be played with children. We often play 20 Questions
>> with the grandchildren at the dinner table when they're over.
>>
>> It's a good way of teaching them logical process. If you say "I'm
>> thinking of an animal with hard feet", it teaches them to reduce the
>> pool of candidates by questions instead of blurting out answers.
>>
>> (We don't try to get too technical. Hence, "hard feet".)
>
>I remember the wireless programme well, on the Home Service during the
>1950s. I was only a child, but I found it entertaining, educational, and
>informative - very Reithian.

Ah, yes! Anona Winn, Gilbert Harding, etc

[Bob Martin]

in 1972886 20130525 161613 Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com> wrote:

Just noticed that you refer to "Animal, Vegetable, Mineral?" but the previous posts
were about "Twenty Questions", which wasn't the same thing.

[Whiskers]

If Wikipedia is to be trusted, it seems that the BBC used the name "Animal,
Vegetable, Mineral?" for the version on the World Service and "Twenty
Questions" for the Home Service version, with different people involved.
Perhaps my childhood recollection was unaware of the station to which the
wireless was tuned, or perhaps at the time announcers were more flexible in
their usage than the official history suggests.

The iPlayer episodes are from a television series; interesting to see the
'production values' and camera limitations - and to hear the very RP
speech.

[Peter Brooks]

On May 26, 3:35 pm, Whiskers <catwhee...@operamail.com> wrote:
> On 2013-05-26, Bob Martin <bob.mar...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > in 1972886 20130525 161613 Whiskers <catwhee...@operamail.com> wrote:

I always thought that they were simply different names for the same
game.

[Iain Archer]

Stan Brown wrote on Tue, 21 May 2013 at 21:53:49 GMT

>On Mon, 20 May 2013 10:52:37 -0400, James Silverton wrote:
>> It is findable by Google but the OED does not have it and I am glad to
>> forget it and I do not accept that it is a "scientific" word for your
>> foot "going to sleep".
>
>Could it be simply a mishearing of "paresthesia"? P and T are not
>that far apart. In Bergman's version of /The Magic Flute/, I thought
>that Papageno was saying "nej pack" rather than "nej tack".
>

It's from "tara-esthesia" - a feeling of an impending goodbye.
--
Iain Archer

[Mike L]

On Sun, 26 May 2013 16:54:19 +0100, Iain Archer <m...@privacy.net>
wrote:

Not, you think, Scarlet's overwhelming appreciation of her lovely
home?

--
Mike.

[Iain Archer]

Mike L wrote on Sun, 26 May 2013 at 20:44:54 GMT

I'll take that as a rhettorical question.
--
Iain Archer

[Bob Martin]

I'm sure they were separate programs on the BBC : "Twenty Questions" was a light-hearted
panel game with Gilbert Harding etc, but "Animal, Vegetable and Mineral" came later,
was a bit more serious and was chaired by Sir Mortimer Wheeler.

MW's Wiki says : "He appeared in three television series that aimed to bring archaeology
to the public: Animal, Vegetable, Mineral (1952–60), which was a quiz game,
an archaeological variant of Twenty Questions, Buried Treasure (1954–59),
and Chronicle (from 1966), and was named British TV Personality of the Year in 1954."

[James Hogg]

Who gives a damn?

--
James

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 07:08:17 BST, Bob Martin <bob.m...@excite.com>

>to the public: Animal, Vegetable, Mineral (1952–60), which was a quiz game,
>an archaeological variant of Twenty Questions, Buried Treasure (1954–59),

>and Chronicle (from 1966), and was named British TV Personality of the Year in 1954."

A similar game involving questions with Ye/No answers was _What's My
Line_:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_My_Line%3F

[R H Draney]

Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> filted:

>
>On Mon, 27 May 2013 07:08:17 BST, Bob Martin <bob.m...@excite.com>
>wrote:
>>

>>MW's Wiki says : "He appeared in three television series that aimed to bring
>>archaeology
>>to the public: Animal, Vegetable, Mineral (1952–60), which was a quiz
>>game,
>>an archaeological variant of Twenty Questions, Buried Treasure (1954–59),
>>and Chronicle (from 1966), and was named British TV Personality of the Year in
>>1954."
>
>A similar game involving questions with Ye/No answers was _What's My
>Line_:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_My_Line%3F

With the added quirk that each panelist was allowed to continue asking one
question after another until a "no" answer was received, resulting in some
tricky semantic hoop-jumping...if one harbored a suspicion that the guest's
product was something meant for men, the question would be phrased as: "would I
be more likely to use your product than, say, my wife?"....

("I don't know; how often do you use your wife?")...r

[Whiskers]

My family had no TV set till the early '60s - but I do have a mental image
of Brigadier Sir Mortimer Wheeler standing up in an open Landrover as if
leading a cavalry charge against an iron-age hill fort. I suspect he
wouldn't have approved of the scruffy "Time Team" style of archaeology.

[Mike L]

Any more than they approve of his, probably. The Rover pose said a lot
about him.

--
Mike.

[Iain Archer]

Whiskers wrote on Mon, 27 May 2013 at 11:14:06 GMT

>My family had no TV set till the early '60s - but I do have a mental image
>of Brigadier Sir Mortimer Wheeler standing up in an open Landrover as if
>leading a cavalry charge against an iron-age hill fort.

I had not known that he had had a military career. But Passchendaele
_and_ El Alamein and Salerno!
--
Iain Archer

[Whiskers]

He may even have lead a real military assault on a defended ancient
fortification. He could certainly bring life to history.

[Odysseus]

In article <knv14u$ba$1...@dont-email.me>,

Not Frank.

--
Odysseus

[Mark Brader]

Peter Duncanson:
>> A similar game [show] involving questions with Ye/No answers was
>> _What's My Line_:

R.H. Draney:

> With the added quirk that each panelist was allowed to continue asking one
> question after another until a "no" answer was received, resulting in some
> tricky semantic hoop-jumping...

In particular, there were a lot of questions of the form "is it something
other than...?" Which is why I thought it was hilarious when I saw this
happen on the show. (I forget the name of one of the panelists involved;
I'll just arbitrarily put "Charles".)

Host: Our next guest grows something, and you must tell us what
he grows. Charles?

Charles: Is it something other than hair?

Guest: No.

Host: Soupy?

Soupy Sales (gesticulating wildly): IS IT HAIR?

--
Mark Brader, Toronto / "A computer makes it possible to do, in half an hour,
m...@vex.net / tasks which were completely unnecessary to do before."

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[Mark Brader]

Jennifer Murphy:
>>> Q: Which of the Wright brothers flew their plane, based on the toss of a
>>> 50-cent piece?
>>> A: Orville
>>> Wrong. Wilbur won the coin toss and made the first flight, lasting just
>>> 3 seconds and damaging the plane. Three days later, Orville took the
>>> next turn and went 120 feet.

You mean "right". After Wilbur failed to make a flight, Orville did
make one as a result of losing the coin toss.

> 1. 12/14/03, Wilbur, 3 seconds.
> 2. 12/17/03, Orville, 120 feet.
> 3. 12/17/03, Wilbur, 175 feet.
> 4. 12/17/03, Orville, 200 feet.
> 5. 12/17/03, Wilbur, 852 feet in 59 seconds.

Exactly. Orville, on line 2.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto, m...@vex.net
The precedence don't enter into it -- it's stone undefined.
This expression makes no sense. It has ceased to be. It's
expired and gone, though sadly not forgotten. This is a latent
expression. Bereft of meaning, it should rest in peace. If
people didn't keep nailing it into these discussions, it would be
pushing up the daisies. It's rung down the curtain and joined
the choir ineffable. This is not an ex-pression.
-- Steve Summit (after Monty Python)

[Mark Brader]

Jennifer Murphy:
> Apparently, the originator of the game or the corporation that bought
> it...

What you mean is the originators (plural) of the game. There were four
of them.

> just stole the information wholesale...

As the courts ruled, there is no such thing as "stealing the information".
If Fred L. Worth and the other sources they used did not want their works
to be used as sources of facts, they should not have published them.
--
Mark Brader | "In the land of truth, my friend,
Toronto | the man with one fact is king."
m...@vex.net | --"In the Loop", Jesse Armstrong et al.

[Snidely]

Monday, John Briggs quipped:

> On 20/05/2013 10:23, Jennifer Murphy wrote:

>> Q: What tool did Charles Moncke invent?
>> A: The monkey wrench
>> Screw-adjustable wrenches and even the term "monkey wrench" were used at
>> least from 1840, long before Moncke (sometimes "Moncky"), a London
>> blacksmith, supposedly invented it in 1858. And in the UK, it is called
>> a spanner, not a monkey wrench.
>
> An *adjustable* spanner. Although, strictly speaking, a monkey wrench is gas
> grips in the UK. If you are thinking of a pipe wrench, that is called
> "Stillsons"

I'm late to the parade [1], I know, but a monkey wrench around my area
(Western US) is associated with machinery, and gets the job of being
thrown into the gears (or the works) to jam things up good and proper.

I happen to have a Ford wrench. It is so called because it came in the
toolkit of an early Ford motorcar (maybe a Model T or a Model A, but I
can't verify that with my pop anymore), and even says "Ford" on it (in
a distinctive script).

This is a picture that's a pretty close match to what I have, although
I don't remember the tab on the bottom. Perhaps I'll eventually get
mine out of storage and photogram it.

[1] I started reading this thread when it was new, but the Irish Drover
thread [2] expanded greatly, so I kept skipping ....

[2] Hope you have a good trip, Jerry, even if you _aren't_ taking me
along.

/dps "does inheriting it make it an estate wrench?"

--
Maybe C282Y is simply one of the hangers-on, a groupie following a
future guitar god of the human genome: an allele with undiscovered
virtuosity, currently soloing in obscurity in Mom's garage.
Bradley Wertheim, theAtlantic.com, Jan 10 2013