flickering lights as you burn on the burner

[tonbei]

I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.

"I set the kettle on the stove and turned on the burner. Lights flickered. "
("Black Notice" by Patricia Cornwell, p172)

My question is about "lights".
How should we interpretate "lights" here?
Google AI interpretates:
turning on a gas burner can cause a momentary surge in electricity, leading to flickering of nearby lights. This is the most likely interpretation if the novel is set in a modern environment with electric appliances.

I am doubtful of this interpretation.
I guess that "lights" are like small flames from the burner's blaze.
What do you say?

[Chris Elvidge]

On 08/01/2024 14:33, tonbei wrote:
> I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
>
> "I set the kettle on the stove and turned on the burner. Lights flickered. "
> ("Black Notice" by Patricia Cornwell, p172)

"Burner" here is possibly a colloquialism - a leftover from when gas
stoves were used. Electric "burner" (hotplate, ring are both used here,
UK) could easily make the electric lights flicker or dim. Switching on
my kettle (in Spain) dims the kitchen lights.

>
> My question is about "lights".
> How should we interpretate "lights" here?
> Google AI interpretates:
> turning on a gas burner can cause a momentary surge in electricity, leading to flickering of nearby lights. This is the most likely interpretation if the novel is set in a modern environment with electric appliances.
>
> I am doubtful of this interpretation.
> I guess that "lights" are like small flames from the burner's blaze.
> What do you say?
>

Well there you have it. How would "turning on a gas burner can cause a
momentary surge in electricity" work.


--
Chris Elvidge, England
BAGMAN, IS NOT A LEGITIMATE CAREER CHOICE

[TonyCooper]

Why do you assume it's a gas stove? Electric stoves have burners.

Turning on the burner of an electric stove could cause the room lights
to flicker if it adds to an already-large load on the circuit.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida

[Paul Carmichael]

El Mon, 08 Jan 2024 14:42:49 +0000, Chris Elvidge escribió:

> On 08/01/2024 14:33, tonbei wrote:
>> I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
>>
>> "I set the kettle on the stove and turned on the burner. Lights
>> flickered. "
>> ("Black Notice" by Patricia Cornwell, p172)
>
> "Burner" here is possibly a colloquialism - a leftover from when gas
> stoves were used. Electric "burner" (hotplate, ring are both used here,
> UK) could easily make the electric lights flicker or dim. Switching on
> my kettle (in Spain) dims the kitchen lights.

Ditto years ago. When we bought our first house here it had potencia of
3,5kW. Two appliances would trip it. The town cabling is all hanging from
frontages and often catches fire etc.

Now we are all solar and off grid we can draw 7kW without any problem :-)

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es

[Silvano]

Chris Elvidge hat am 08.01.2024 um 15:42 geschrieben:

> "Burner" here is possibly a colloquialism - a leftover from when gas
> stoves were used. Electric "burner" (hotplate, ring are both used here,
> UK) could easily make the electric lights flicker or dim. Switching on
> my kettle (in Spain) dims the kitchen lights.

Are electrical circuits really so bad in Spain?
SCNR.

[Chris Elvidge]

Not "bad" as such. In Spain, electricity is supplied as a contract for
maximum power - generally 3.3kw (15 amp), can be upgraded to 4.4kw (and
up) for a higher standing charge. Obviously 3.3kw will just about run a
normal (for UK) kettle (3kw) - hence light dimming/flickering.

Normal power in the UK is a 30 or 60 amp supply (upgradeable to 80 or
100 amp). 30 amps is about 7kw.


--
Chris Elvidge, England
EVERYONE IS TIRED OF THAT RICHARD GERE STORY

[tonbei]

So, Google AI was right.
Almost every question such as I've posted in this group these twenty years may be solved through AI

[lar3ryca]

On 2024-01-08 12:46, tonbei wrote:
> So, Google AI was right.
> Almost every question such as I've posted in this group these twenty years may be solved through AI

Google AI was definitely NOT right.

It said "turning on a gas burner can cause a momentary surge in electricity"

It would have been right if they has said "electric burner" or even just
"burner", but turning on a gas burner would not cause a momentary surge
in electricity"

--
Never put off until tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow.
–Mark Twain

[J. J. Lodder]

tonbei <lights...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
>
> "I set the kettle on the stove and turned on the burner. Lights flickered. "
> ("Black Notice" by Patricia Cornwell, p172)
>
> My question is about "lights".
> How should we interpretate "lights" here?
> Google AI interpretates:
> turning on a gas burner can cause a momentary surge in electricity,
> leading to flickering of nearby lights. This is the most likely
> interpretation if the novel is set in a modern environment with electric
> appliances.

Typical AI generated nonsense.
I can't understand why people are dumb enough
to ask google anything at all. Use your own brains.

> I am doubtful of this interpretation.
> I guess that "lights" are like small flames from the burner's blaze.
> What do you say?

As for the phrase, you really shouldn't read books by phrases,
and try to understand them phrase by phrase.
Cornwell writes stories, creates atmospheres,
and phrases must be understood in the context of the whole.

(getting a copy)
Context: She is at Marino's house.
Marino is described as a nut for Chrismas decorations.
He has hundreds of thousands of lights outdoors.
People go out of their way to drive by, to have look at his house.
He tells that he has had to install extra fuse boxes to feed it all.

So yes, Scarpetta causing the lights to flicker by turning on a burner
is a sideways comment on all that,

Jan
(not read, found relavant phrases)

[Janet]

In article <276f2d83-8e16-4a5e-aaee-
1c2074...@googlegroups.com>, lights...@gmail.com
says...

>
> I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
>
> "I set the kettle on the stove and turned on the burner. Lights flickered. "
> ("Black Notice" by Patricia Cornwell, p172)
>
> My question is about "lights".
> How should we interpretate "lights" here?

READ the PAGE, where she has just described in
detail, Marino's three hundred thousand flickering
Christmas lights. So many lights they overload the power
circuits on three fuse boxes.

You seem incapable of reading anything in the context
of the page it's written on.

Janet

[Peter Moylan]

On 09/01/24 05:46, tonbei wrote:

> So, Google AI was right. Almost every question such as I've posted
> in this group these twenty years may be solved through AI

A lot of questions posted on newsgroups get stupid answers, but the
answers are rarely as stupid as what Google AI said.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

[Peter Moylan]

On 09/01/24 01:44, TonyCooper wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Jan 2024 06:33:39 -0800 (PST), tonbei
> <lights...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
>>
>> "I set the kettle on the stove and turned on the burner. Lights flickered. "
>> ("Black Notice" by Patricia Cornwell, p172)
>>
>> My question is about "lights".
>> How should we interpretate "lights" here?
>> Google AI interpretates:
>> turning on a gas burner can cause a momentary surge in electricity, leading to flickering of nearby lights. This is the most likely interpretation if the novel is set in a modern environment with electric appliances.
>>
>> I am doubtful of this interpretation.
>> I guess that "lights" are like small flames from the burner's blaze.
>> What do you say?
>
> Why do you assume it's a gas stove? Electric stoves have burners.

Tonbei assumed a gas stove because that's what Google AI said.

[TonyCooper]

The fact that the electrical load has been mentioned, the fact that
the stove is electric, not gas, is the normal take-away and that the
turned-on burner just added to the load.

Cornwell has been criticized as a bad writer, but this is a case of an
inept reader, not a problem with the writer.

[occam]

And therein lies a future problem. I accept all the instructions my GPS
gives me when I'm driving in uncharted territory. In the absence of any
other plausible explanation, we accept the one that is on offer.

Returning to the original sentence - I agree with Tony. It could be an
electric stove. And the flickering lights may be on the stove itself,
showing that the burner circuit has been turned on/is currently on.

[J. J. Lodder]

Janet <nob...@home.com> wrote:

> In article <276f2d83-8e16-4a5e-aaee-
> 1c2074...@googlegroups.com>, lights...@gmail.com
> says...
> >
> > I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
> >
> > "I set the kettle on the stove and turned on the burner. Lights flickered. "
> > ("Black Notice" by Patricia Cornwell, p172)
> >
> > My question is about "lights".
> > How should we interpretate "lights" here?
>
> READ the PAGE, where she has just described in
> detail, Marino's three hundred thousand flickering
> Christmas lights. So many lights they overload the power
> circuits on three fuse boxes.

Yes, and with some female exaggeration. (or is it innumeracy?)

This was written before the LED revolution,
and even at one watt/light 300 kW would overload much more
than just three fuse boxes.

But yes, the exaggeration fits the atmosphere that's being painted,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 09/01/24 05:46, tonbei wrote:
>
> > So, Google AI was right. Almost every question such as I've posted
> > in this group these twenty years may be solved through AI
>
> A lot of questions posted on newsgroups get stupid answers, but the
> answers are rarely as stupid as what Google AI said.

Yes, and it will only get worse as AI feeds upon itself.
In self learning AI that really does something beyond mere talk,
like winning chess games, there is hard feedback from reality.

With this kind of talk all contact with really real reality
may get lost completely.
Unfortunately, the laws of physics also apply
to those who don't believe in them,

Jan

[Janet]

In article <1qn29tx.1wzt6bp1tjfa35N%nospam@de-
ster.demon.nl>, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl says...

>
> Janet <nob...@home.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <276f2d83-8e16-4a5e-aaee-
> > 1c2074...@googlegroups.com>, lights...@gmail.com
> > says...
> > >
> > > I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
> > >
> > > "I set the kettle on the stove and turned on the burner. Lights flickered. "
> > > ("Black Notice" by Patricia Cornwell, p172)
> > >
> > > My question is about "lights".
> > > How should we interpretate "lights" here?
> >
> > READ the PAGE, where she has just described in
> > detail, Marino's three hundred thousand flickering
> > Christmas lights. So many lights they overload the power
> > circuits on three fuse boxes.
>
> Yes, and with some female exaggeration. (or is it innumeracy?)

Marino's outdoor and indoor "christmas lights display" is
so OTT it has become a seasonal tourist attraction. So in
terms of gender stereotypes, this is an example of male
tasteless /boundless macho-vanity.

Janet

> This was written before the LED revolution,

? 1999

[J. J. Lodder]

Janet <nob...@home.com> wrote:

> In article <1qn29tx.1wzt6bp1tjfa35N%nospam@de-
> ster.demon.nl>, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl says...
> >
> > Janet <nob...@home.com> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <276f2d83-8e16-4a5e-aaee-
> > > 1c2074...@googlegroups.com>, lights...@gmail.com
> > > says...
> > > >
> > > > I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
> > > >
> > > > "I set the kettle on the stove and turned on the burner. Lights
> > > > flickered. "
> > > > ("Black Notice" by Patricia Cornwell, p172)
> > > >
> > > > My question is about "lights".
> > > > How should we interpretate "lights" here?
> > >
> > > READ the PAGE, where she has just described in
> > > detail, Marino's three hundred thousand flickering
> > > Christmas lights. So many lights they overload the power
> > > circuits on three fuse boxes.
> >
> > Yes, and with some female exaggeration. (or is it innumeracy?)
>
> Marino's outdoor and indoor "christmas lights display" is
> so OTT it has become a seasonal tourist attraction. So in
> terms of gender stereotypes, this is an example of male
> tasteless /boundless macho-vanity.

Yes, I already mentioned that in my previous posting.

> Janet
>
>
> > This was written before the LED revolution,
>
> ? 1999

Yes, published, but internal evidence places the hapenings in 1996,

Jan

[Chris Elvidge]

I enjoyed her early stuff but decided she'd "lost it" about 10 years ago.
As Janet (et al) said upthread, extracting a bit of a page and asking
for clarification defeats the object. Context is everything.
However, colloquialisms sometimes need explaining, even between two
nations divided by a common language.


--
Chris Elvidge, England
I WILL FINISH WHAT I STA

[occam]

On 09/01/2024 11:28, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Unfortunately, the laws of physics also apply
> to those who don't believe in them,

<smile>. But why unfortunately? If you think you can fly, you deserve to
experience the force gravity from a leap-of-faith of a 100 meters.

[Paul Carmichael]

Here in the rural south, yes. When I bought this house, somebody had
fitted a new kitchen, with everything electric. They had used lighting
cable. You might of course say, so what?, the circuit breaker will
prevent a fire. That might have been true if there had been circuit
breakers. Or even a meter for that matter. The company had removed the
meter and left a note saying "disconnected for non-payment". The then
owner had simply twisted the wires to restore the supply. Almost killed
me when I came to rip out the old dodgy wiring. Goes without saying that
there was neither earth trip nor even earth rod.

Scary.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

When we moved into a university flat in Birmingham we bought quite a
few items from the previous tenants, including a washing machine. I had
occasion to check the fuse in the plug, and was utterly appalled to see
which wire was connected to which terminal. (I can't tell you exactly,
because I don't remember exactly, after 40 years: I think the earth
(yellow-green) was connected to the live, the live (brown) to the
neutral, and the neutral (blue) to the earth)). I was surprised that it
worked at all, let alone safely.


--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

[Paul Carmichael]

El Tue, 09 Jan 2024 18:27:58 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden escribió:

> When we moved into a university flat in Birmingham we bought quite a few
> items from the previous tenants, including a washing machine. I had
> occasion to check the fuse in the plug, and was utterly appalled to see
> which wire was connected to which terminal. (I can't tell you exactly,
> because I don't remember exactly, after 40 years: I think the earth
> (yellow-green) was connected to the live, the live (brown) to the
> neutral, and the neutral (blue) to the earth)). I was surprised that it
> worked at all, let alone safely.

Single phase stuff really is not fussy.

For one thing, live is exactly the same as neutral. Just opposite sides
of the sine wave. Neutral is normally connected to earth at some point.
For example in my house, the inverter connects neutral to earth so that
the following earth-trips work correctly. I think in the UK and some
other countries the house gets "mains earth" as well. We have to provide
our own.

I remember hearing some "UK-trained electrician" telling me that some
single phase stuff is "phase dependent" which is absolute bollocks. There
is only one phase and both "live" and "neutral" are it.


--
Paul.

https://paulc.es

[charles]

In article <l05e0u...@mid.individual.net>, Athel Cornish-Bowden

40 years ago the wire should have been Red, Brown, Green. If it was German,
the earth would have been Red- not sure about the other two colours.

But, the cable might have been installed totally wrongly at the machine end.

> -

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Sam Plusnet]

When we were students, we moved into a flat in Liverpool.
We had a single bar electric fire which it was as basic as could be - no
switch (unplug it to switch it off), no different settings (1 kW).

We had it in the Living room where it worked without a problem.
Someone took it into their bedroom where it failed to work (although
small electrical devices would work).
It wasn't one error, it was a whole sequence of mistakes that had been
made with the wiring.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Sam Plusnet]

You seem to have added misogyny to your usual (national) chauvinism.
Was this a New Year's resolution?

--
Sam Plusnet

[J. J. Lodder]

???? This is Patricia Cornwell we were talking about.
She, like for example Heinlein discussed in a // thread,
seems to be fond of dropping technical detail that suggests
far more technical and scientific knowledge and competence
than they really have.

One may comment on it, I guess,
without being suddenly mysogenic
when the author happens to be female,

Jan

[TonyCooper]

WHAT "technical detail"? She wrote that the lights flickered when the
burner was lit.

She wrote that Marino has 300,000 flickering Christmas lights.
("Flickering" is OK to describe Christmas tree lights, but I would
write "blinking"). Christmas lights are often factory-set to blink on
and off.

She wrote that the lighting overloaded the power circuits.

What is "technical" about anything she wrote?

What she wrote is something that the normal reader would read without
hestitation or question. One reader mistakenly (in my opinion)
thought the burner was on a gas stove and sparked a needless
discussion.

A reader, by the way, who is probably still confused after reading
"See spot run" thinking the spots are like Rudy Guiliani's hair dye.


Also, how can you compare Cornwell to Heinlein?

[Snidely]

J. J. Lodder explained on 1/9/2024 :

> Janet <nob...@home.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <1qn29tx.1wzt6bp1tjfa35N%nospam@de-
>> ster.demon.nl>, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl says...
>>>
>>> Janet <nob...@home.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <276f2d83-8e16-4a5e-aaee-
>>>> 1c2074...@googlegroups.com>, lights...@gmail.com
>>>> says...
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
>>>>>
>>>>> "I set the kettle on the stove and turned on the burner. Lights
>>>>> flickered. "
>>>>> ("Black Notice" by Patricia Cornwell, p172)
>>>>>
>>>>> My question is about "lights".
>>>>> How should we interpretate "lights" here?
>>>>
>>>> READ the PAGE, where she has just described in
>>>> detail, Marino's three hundred thousand flickering
>>>> Christmas lights. So many lights they overload the power
>>>> circuits on three fuse boxes.
>>>
>>> Yes, and with some female exaggeration. (or is it innumeracy?)
>>
>> Marino's outdoor and indoor "christmas lights display" is
>> so OTT it has become a seasonal tourist attraction. So in
>> terms of gender stereotypes, this is an example of male
>> tasteless /boundless macho-vanity.
>
> Yes, I already mentioned that in my previous posting.

Are xmas light shows limited to males? And is it macho-vanity or
geek-vanity, since the really good shows require controller setups.
But then, in the Nineties, people just used timers, mostly the
clock-type.

>
>> Janet
>>
>>
>>> This was written before the LED revolution,
>>
>> ? 1999
>
> Yes, published, but internal evidence places the hapenings in 1996,

LED xmas lights weren't much of a thing before the 20-teens, and it was
the small battery-powered strings that proliferated first. LED bulbs
for lamps were only reaching easy access about then. LED flashlights
became popular 5-10 years before that, but non-LED flashlights were
still dominating sales.

/dps "same country as Marino, opposite coast"

--
"Maintaining a really good conspiracy requires far more intelligent
application, by a large number of people, than the world can readily
supply."

Sam Plusnet

[J. J. Lodder]

Correct.

> She wrote that Marino has 300,000 flickering Christmas lights.
> ("Flickering" is OK to describe Christmas tree lights, but I would
> write "blinking"). Christmas lights are often factory-set to blink on
> and off.

Yes. It is the 300 000 ones which is an example of innumeracy.
No way that this is possible.

> She wrote that the lighting overloaded the power circuits.

Obviously not, or they wouldn't have been burning.
She wrote that Marino installed extra fuse boxes.

> What is "technical" about anything she wrote?
>
> What she wrote is something that the normal reader would read without
> hestitation or question. One reader mistakenly (in my opinion)
> thought the burner was on a gas stove and sparked a needless
> discussion.

Indeed.

> A reader, by the way, who is probably still confused after reading
> "See spot run" thinking the spots are like Rudy Guiliani's hair dye.
>
>
> Also, how can you compare Cornwell to Heinlein?

You missed that exchange, probably.
In the Heinlein thread I proposed that Heinlein had clever ways
of suggesting that he had more science and technology knowledge
than he really had. Cornwel does that too,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com> wrote:

> El Tue, 09 Jan 2024 18:27:58 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden escribió:
>
> > When we moved into a university flat in Birmingham we bought quite a few
> > items from the previous tenants, including a washing machine. I had
> > occasion to check the fuse in the plug, and was utterly appalled to see
> > which wire was connected to which terminal. (I can't tell you exactly,
> > because I don't remember exactly, after 40 years: I think the earth
> > (yellow-green) was connected to the live, the live (brown) to the
> > neutral, and the neutral (blue) to the earth)). I was surprised that it
> > worked at all, let alone safely.
>
>
> Single phase stuff really is not fussy.
>
> For one thing, live is exactly the same as neutral. Just opposite sides
> of the sine wave. Neutral is normally connected to earth at some point.
> For example in my house, the inverter connects neutral to earth so that
> the following earth-trips work correctly. I think in the UK and some
> other countries the house gets "mains earth" as well. We have to provide
> our own.

You are wrong about that.
(special cases with symmetrical nets excepted, not your case)

Just try touching a bare wire,
and you will know whether it is neutral or live.

> I remember hearing some "UK-trained electrician" telling me that some
> single phase stuff is "phase dependent" which is absolute bollocks.

It is, in the British system.
For example, it is the live wire that must be fused,
not the neutral one.
The live wire in a British socket must be on the right side.

> There is only one phase and both "live" and "neutral" are it.

Again, do try it.
(if you are squeamish about getting a bit shocked
you can use one of those neon bulb testers)

Jan

[charles]

In article <pan$55ccc$89c1e0e6$21965fcb$cb99...@gmail.com>,

Actually, there are 3 phases, but most domesticv premises only use one.
This house has two incoming; If I wanted a heavier load that my 60A, I
could connect to the other phase.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Tuesday, January 9, 2024 at 2:43:24 PM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > El Tue, 09 Jan 2024 18:27:58 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden escribió:
> >
> > > When we moved into a university flat in Birmingham we bought quite a few
> > > items from the previous tenants, including a washing machine. I had
> > > occasion to check the fuse in the plug, and was utterly appalled to see
> > > which wire was connected to which terminal. (I can't tell you exactly,
> > > because I don't remember exactly, after 40 years: I think the earth
> > > (yellow-green) was connected to the live, the live (brown) to the
> > > neutral, and the neutral (blue) to the earth)). I was surprised that it
> > > worked at all, let alone safely.
> >
> >
> > Single phase stuff really is not fussy.
> >
> > For one thing, live is exactly the same as neutral. Just opposite sides
> > of the sine wave. Neutral is normally connected to earth at some point.
> > For example in my house, the inverter connects neutral to earth so that
> > the following earth-trips work correctly. I think in the UK and some
> > other countries the house gets "mains earth" as well. We have to provide
> > our own.
>
> You are wrong about that.
> (special cases with symmetrical nets excepted, not your case)
>
> Just try touching a bare wire,
> and you will know whether it is neutral or live.

I don't know much about electricity in the sense of what electricians do,
but I assumed Paul was talking about the situation where current is
flowing.

> > I remember hearing some "UK-trained electrician" telling me that some
> > single phase stuff is "phase dependent" which is absolute bollocks.
>
> It is, in the British system.
> For example, it is the live wire that must be fused,
> not the neutral one.
> The live wire in a British socket must be on the right side.

...

I wouldn't use "phase-dependent" to mean the difference between the live
and the neutral wire.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <unhcgj$1kal9$1...@dont-email.me>,
Chris Elvidge <ch...@mshome.net> wrote:

>Not "bad" as such. In Spain, electricity is supplied as a contract for
>maximum power - generally 3.3kw (15 amp), can be upgraded to 4.4kw (and
>up) for a higher standing charge. Obviously 3.3kw will just about run a
>normal (for UK) kettle (3kw) - hence light dimming/flickering.
>
>Normal power in the UK is a 30 or 60 amp supply (upgradeable to 80 or
>100 amp). 30 amps is about 7kw.

Here on this side of the pond, electrical service is normally 200 A
for new installations (60 A in apartments and 100 A in older
residences, with 400 A available as an upgrade for people who have
weird stuff like welding rigs in their homes), which is 48 kVA.

I've recently learned that LED "bulbs" (as distinct from the
individual semiconductor diodes powered by low-voltage DC supplies
like you'd see on a piece of consumer electronics) vary quite a lot in
quality, and apparently even those from formerly reputable brands have
an annoying tendency to flicker, because the actual manufacturers have
cheaped out on just about everything that goes into them. I learned
this from someone on Mastodon who was desperately searching for
Edison-base LED bulbs that were reliable, could be installed in
recessed cans, were dimmable, and didn't flicker -- apparently this is
a "pick any two" problem -- because a previously trusted vendor had
dropped that from their product line to concentrate on more profitable
lines.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wol...@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

[J. J. Lodder]

In these parts the standard single house connection
is either 1x35A, (so 8KW) or 3x25A (so 17kW)
If you want more than that you can order 3x35A. (so 24 kW)
The standard house connection is 4x6mm^2, so there it ends.

If you really want more power you have to negotiate,
and they will need to dig. It wil be quite expensive.
Normally they allow that only for business use.

Jan

[TonyCooper]

On Tue, 09 Jan 2024 12:37:26 -0800, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I wouldn't say it's limited to males, but it is very close to that.
First, it isn't going to be much of a show unless it's a single-family
house. The female may be the one encouraging the display, but it's
generally the male who actually gets up on the ladder and installs
them.

If the male isn't willing to do that, it's not going to be much of a
display.

Before I get cards and letters saying that a female is quite capable
of getting up on a ladder and hanging lights, I think is that it is
mostly the male up on the ladder with the female on the ground
providing instructions.

[TonyCooper]

On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:43:19 +0100, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.

I am gobsmacked that you feel that fiction writers are guilty of
"technical" errors when they present impossible situations in their
novels. A great deal of fiction is based on impossible premises.
That's why it's classified as "fiction".

In my view, the only time an author of fiction is guilty of a
technical error is when the author describes a real, known factual
situation incorrectly. If two characters meet at the intersection of
two real streets, but those two streets never intersect, that's a
technical error.

If one of those characters has been time-transported from the future
or the past and meet at an intersection of fictionally-named streets,
that's impossible but it is not a technical error. It's allowable in
fiction.

What I find difficult to understand is how you have this knowledge of
Cornwell's propensity to suggest she has more science and
technological knowledge than she actually has. You obviously don't
like her writing, so I wouldn't think you read her books. What you do
see are her contextless excerpts from her most befuddled reader. And
you extrapolate from these?

[Peter Moylan]

On 10/01/24 05:53, Sam Plusnet wrote:

> When we were students, we moved into a flat in Liverpool. We had a
> single bar electric fire which it was as basic as could be - no
> switch (unplug it to switch it off), no different settings (1 kW).
>
> We had it in the Living room where it worked without a problem.
> Someone took it into their bedroom where it failed to work (although
> small electrical devices would work). It wasn't one error, it was a
> whole sequence of mistakes that had been made with the wiring.

WIWAL my father wanted to install a new ceiling lamp in the living room.
He was an electrical technician, so he knew what he was doing even
though he wasn't a licensed electrician. I helped him. The job turned
out to be a lot trickier than we expected. After tracing wiring all
around the ceiling cavity we discovered that half the house was supplied
between active and earth, and the other half between neutral and earth,
or something weird like that.

All of the houses in that neighbourhood had been built at the same time.
I conjecture that the wiring job was given to the lowest bidder.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

[Peter Moylan]

On 10/01/24 06:13, J. J. Lodder wrote:

> ???? This is Patricia Cornwell we were talking about. She, like for
> example Heinlein discussed in a // thread, seems to be fond of
> dropping technical detail that suggests far more technical and
> scientific knowledge and competence than they really have.

I was in the library a couple of hours ago, and noticed a Patricia
Cornwell book called "Quantum". The title made me pick it up. Reading
the dust jacket made me put it down again.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Our concièrge would be jealous. She doesnt put 300 000 lights around
her service flat at Christmas, but as many as she can.

>
>> She wrote that the lighting overloaded the power circuits.
>
> Obviously not, or they wouldn't have been burning.
> She wrote that Marino installed extra fuse boxes.
>
>> What is "technical" about anything she wrote?
>>
>> What she wrote is something that the normal reader would read without
>> hestitation or question. One reader mistakenly (in my opinion)
>> thought the burner was on a gas stove and sparked a needless
>> discussion.
>
> Indeed.
>
>> A reader, by the way, who is probably still confused after reading
>> "See spot run" thinking the spots are like Rudy Guiliani's hair dye.
>>
>>
>> Also, how can you compare Cornwell to Heinlein?
>
> You missed that exchange, probably.
> In the Heinlein thread I proposed that Heinlein had clever ways
> of suggesting that he had more science and technology knowledge
> than he really had. Cornwel does that too,
>
> Jan

[Madhu]

* TonyCooper <d3rrpi9dask25k86bqqjfck136jsit9irp @4ax.com> :
Wrote on Tue, 09 Jan 2024 20:28:22 -0500:
> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:43:19 +0100, nospam @de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.

>>> Also, how can you compare Cornwell to Heinlein?
>>You missed that exchange, probably.
>>In the Heinlein thread I proposed that Heinlein had clever ways
>>of suggesting that he had more science and technology knowledge
>>than he really had. Cornwel does that too,
>>
>
> I am gobsmacked that you feel that fiction writers are guilty of
> "technical" errors when they present impossible situations in their
> novels. A great deal of fiction is based on impossible premises.
> That's why it's classified as "fiction".

I think it's fair game (a fair cop?) for literary criticism. it is a
comment on the technique employed by the author

> In my view, the only time an author of fiction is guilty of a
> technical error is when the author describes a real, known factual
> situation incorrectly. If two characters meet at the intersection of
> two real streets, but those two streets never intersect, that's a
> technical error.
>
> If one of those characters has been time-transported from the future
> or the past and meet at an intersection of fictionally-named streets,
> that's impossible but it is not a technical error. It's allowable in
> fiction.
>
> What I find difficult to understand is how you have this knowledge of
> Cornwell's propensity to suggest she has more science and
> technological knowledge than she actually has. You obviously don't
> like her writing, so I wouldn't think you read her books. What you do
> see are her contextless excerpts from her most befuddled reader. And
> you extrapolate from these?

it is an inference from the style. but a clever author could fake it.

[J. J. Lodder]

Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 10/01/24 06:13, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
> > ???? This is Patricia Cornwell we were talking about. She, like for
> > example Heinlein discussed in a // thread, seems to be fond of
> > dropping technical detail that suggests far more technical and
> > scientific knowledge and competence than they really have.
>
> I was in the library a couple of hours ago, and noticed a Patricia
> Cornwell book called "Quantum". The title made me pick it up. Reading
> the dust jacket made me put it down again.

Thanks, I hadn't seen those yet. The reviews are mixed,
to put it mildly. It is supposed to become a new series.
Capt. Chase #2 is titled 'Spin',

Jan
(I'll pass)

[J. J. Lodder]

There is 'technical' and 'technical'.
Nothing wrong with Capt. kirk warping though the Galaxy,
as a story premisse.
Obvious technical impossibilities should be avoided though.
(like having 50mm machine guns installed instead of .50 ones)

> In my view, the only time an author of fiction is guilty of a
> technical error is when the author describes a real, known factual
> situation incorrectly. If two characters meet at the intersection of
> two real streets, but those two streets never intersect, that's a
> technical error.

IIRC Holmes had something like that somewhere.
Dr. Watson's literary agent really didn't give a damn.

> If one of those characters has been time-transported from the future
> or the past and meet at an intersection of fictionally-named streets,
> that's impossible but it is not a technical error. It's allowable in
> fiction.
>
> What I find difficult to understand is how you have this knowledge of
> Cornwell's propensity to suggest she has more science and
> technological knowledge than she actually has.

Selective reading.

> You obviously don't like her writing, so I wouldn't think you read her
> books. What you do see are her contextless excerpts from her most
> befuddled reader. And you extrapolate from these?

How do you know how much I see, once I start looking?

Jan

[Peter Moylan]

On 10/01/24 04:27, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> When we moved into a university flat in Birmingham we bought quite a
> few items from the previous tenants, including a washing machine. I
> had occasion to check the fuse in the plug, and was utterly appalled
> to see which wire was connected to which terminal. (I can't tell you
> exactly, because I don't remember exactly, after 40 years: I think
> the earth (yellow-green) was connected to the live, the live (brown)
> to the neutral, and the neutral (blue) to the earth)). I was
> surprised that it worked at all, let alone safely.

In one of my student vacation jobs I was required to install something
like ten fluorescent light units on the ceiling of a factory building. I
wasn't keen on doing this because heights make me nervous, the ceiling
was very high, and the ladder looked flimsy to me. (It probably wasn't,
but it doesn't take much to trigger vertigo.) Anyway, I had to do it.
For each unit I had to carry the thing, plus screws and screwdrivers, to
the top of the ladder, and then screw it in place above my head; and
then connect the power leads to a supply that was already present.
Sweating the whole way as I imagined I was about to fall.

Finally, thinking that the job was done, I turned on the light switch at
ground level. Half the lights turned on, half didn't. So I had to go up
the ladder again, remove the faulty units, work out what was wrong (that
was the easy part), and reinstall them.

So what was wrong? These units had some internal wiring (that's normal
for fluorescent lamps), and they had been put together in a slave farm
somewhere by people who didn't know what they were doing. They did the
wiring by colour code, and apparently got it wrong about 50% of the time.

[Paul Carmichael]

El Tue, 09 Jan 2024 18:53:08 +0000, Sam Plusnet escribió:

> When we were students, we moved into a flat in Liverpool.
> We had a single bar electric fire which it was as basic as could be - no
> switch (unplug it to switch it off), no different settings (1 kW).
>
> We had it in the Living room where it worked without a problem.
> Someone took it into their bedroom where it failed to work (although
> small electrical devices would work).

Depending on where one lives, this can happen. For example, here in Spain
it's quite legal to have bedside powerpoints on the lighting circuit.
They're assumed to only be used for a lamp or a phone charger.


--
Paul.

https://paulc.es

[Paul Carmichael]

El Tue, 09 Jan 2024 13:58:28 -0800, Jerry Friedman escribió:

> I don't know much about electricity in the sense of what electricians
> do,
> but I assumed Paul was talking about the situation where current is
> flowing.

Killfiles work well. I hadn't seen that nonsense.

> I wouldn't use "phase-dependent" to mean the difference between the live
> and the neutral wire.

In single phase there is only one phase. Odd that.

The live wire will give you a shock because it's live. The neutral is
just as "live" but has been connected to earth, so no longer dangerous.
It's really as simple as that. Put an oscilloscope on the mains and tell
me there's a difference between L and N. They are identical. This is why
it matters absolutely not which way round you connect an appliance. In
fact the plugs in my house have no "correct way round".

Three phase is another matter. Neutral is "neutral" relative to the
offset phases.

How can one of the 2 only wires coming out of a transformer winding be
"neutral"?

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es

[charles]

In article <pan$bb6e3$2c085c17$4bb95d38$d6a7...@gmail.com>,

by grounding it.

[Peter Moylan]

On 10/01/24 22:05, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> El Tue, 09 Jan 2024 13:58:28 -0800, Jerry Friedman escribió:

>> I wouldn't use "phase-dependent" to mean the difference between
>> the live and the neutral wire.
>
> In single phase there is only one phase. Odd that.

The difficulty here is that "phase" has more than one meaning. You are
using it to mean the number of phases -- i.e. the number of active lines
-- in an electrical supply. More commonly, it means the phase difference
between voltage and current delivered to the load. The voltage and
current are in phase with each other for a purely resistive load, but
most loads are not purely resistive. The current will lag the voltage
for an inductive load, and vice versa for a capacitive load. Many
domestic loads are resistive, but all bets are off once you get to
things like induction cooktops. (But most industrial
loads, FWIW, are inductive.)

> The live wire will give you a shock because it's live. The neutral is
> just as "live" but has been connected to earth, so no longer
> dangerous. It's really as simple as that. Put an oscilloscope on the
> mains and tell me there's a difference between L and N. They are
> identical. This is why it matters absolutely not which way round you
> connect an appliance. In fact the plugs in my house have no "correct
> way round".

I think it was Jan who pointed out that the neutral line is connected to
earth somewhere upstream; but the "somewhere" depends on the policies of
the supply authority. You can in some situations get a shock from the
neutral line. Only a few volts, typically, but the effect on you will
depend on the phase difference between the neutral voltage and the
timing of your heartbeat.

> Three phase is another matter. Neutral is "neutral" relative to the
> offset phases.

I would phrase that differently. The phase voltages are relative to the
neutral voltage. This is true whether you have a single-phase supply or
a three-phase supply, or, for that matter, a seven-phase supply.

> How can one of the 2 only wires coming out of a transformer winding
> be "neutral"?

It depends on what is connected on the secondary side. In many cases, a
smart designer will ensure that one of the two wires is earthed.

[Peter Moylan]

This will change, I suspect, once Spain moves into the 20th century.

[Paul Carmichael]

El Wed, 10 Jan 2024 23:06:56 +1100, Peter Moylan escribió:

> It depends on what is connected on the secondary side. In many cases, a
> smart designer will ensure that one of the two wires is earthed.

Can't argue with that.

I think that many people believe that what we receive as single phase, is
actually half wave, with "neutral" being the flat line.

There is currently attached to my power supply an oscilloscope that shows
a near perfect sine wave.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Spain did that, a long time ago. For example, it has the most extensive
high-speed rail network in Europe. That's not the only example I could
give.

[Sam Plusnet]

Have they looked into "The Dubai Lamp"?

Getting hold of them outside Dubai is difficult, but not impossible.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Sam Plusnet]

If you look far enough, I suspect most countries are a mix of 'Ancient
and Modern'.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Sam Plusnet]

And no doubt the third time's a charm.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Taking a different example close to my own interests, the Spanish
biochemical society is vibrant, energetic, run by scientists and has a
magazine that people want to read, whereas going to a meeting of the
French society is like a trip into the 1930s; likewise the Italian. A
few years ago I'd have said that the Spanish society compared
favourably with the British society, but now that the latter is being
taken over by accountants and woke diversity specialists the former has
overtaken it. I mention biochemistry because that's what I know about,
but I suspect that it's true of other learned societies. Maybe, of
course, your "modern" translates to "run by accountants and woke
diversity specialists", in which case you're right.

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <dlBnN.183759$xHn7....@fx14.iad>,

Well, most of the Western Hemisphere doesn't have "ancient". There's
*some*, but the original inhabitants mostly did not leave large
structures or feats of civil engineering, in many places because
either their population wasn't large enough or they didn't have access
to durable enough materials for their structures to survive. Even the
first European arrivals didn't leave much behind; our material history
really isn't much preserved until you get to the 18th c.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Wednesday, January 10, 2024 at 12:53:47 PM UTC-7, Garrett Wollman wrote:
> In article <dlBnN.183759$xHn7....@fx14.iad>,
> Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
> >On 10-Jan-24 17:16, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >> Spain did that, a long time ago. For example, it has the most extensive
> >> high-speed rail network in Europe. That's not the only example I could
> >> give.
> >
> >If you look far enough, I suspect most countries are a mix of 'Ancient
> >and Modern'.

...

> Well, most of the Western Hemisphere doesn't have "ancient". There's
> *some*, but the original inhabitants mostly did not leave large
> structures or feats of civil engineering, in many places because
> either their population wasn't large enough or they didn't have access
> to durable enough materials for their structures to survive. Even the
> first European arrivals didn't leave much behind; our material history
> really isn't much preserved until you get to the 18th c.

We are still using species that the native people used and in some
cases domesticated. Many place names and other words are derived
from native names, and some languages survive among relatively small
numbers of people. Also it's not that unusual for people to own or
have occasion to see art or craft work based on native traditions or to
have watched, even participated in, native ceremonies and events
with ancient origins. However, I agree that "ancient" here isn't as
pervasive as in Eurasia.

--
Jerry Friedman

[J. J. Lodder]

> Our concičrge would be jealous. She doesnt put 300 000 lights around

> her service flat at Christmas, but as many as she can.

In France too her freedom of expression will be limited
to less than 300 000 lights.
To 1x90A or 3x30A, if memory serves.

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Jerry Friedman <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, January 9, 2024 at 2:43:24?PM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > El Tue, 09 Jan 2024 18:27:58 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden escribió:
> > >

> > > > When we moved into a university flat in Birmingham we bought quite a few
> > > > items from the previous tenants, including a washing machine. I had
> > > > occasion to check the fuse in the plug, and was utterly appalled to see
> > > > which wire was connected to which terminal. (I can't tell you exactly,
> > > > because I don't remember exactly, after 40 years: I think the earth
> > > > (yellow-green) was connected to the live, the live (brown) to the
> > > > neutral, and the neutral (blue) to the earth)). I was surprised that it
> > > > worked at all, let alone safely.
> > >
> > >

> > > Single phase stuff really is not fussy.
> > >
> > > For one thing, live is exactly the same as neutral. Just opposite sides
> > > of the sine wave. Neutral is normally connected to earth at some point.
> > > For example in my house, the inverter connects neutral to earth so that
> > > the following earth-trips work correctly. I think in the UK and some
> > > other countries the house gets "mains earth" as well. We have to provide
> > > our own.
> >

> > You are wrong about that.
> > (special cases with symmetrical nets excepted, not your case)
> >
> > Just try touching a bare wire,
> > and you will know whether it is neutral or live.

>
> I don't know much about electricity in the sense of what electricians do,
> but I assumed Paul was talking about the situation where current is
> flowing.

I don't know what he is talking about, beyond his being confused.
At the output of a transformer two wires come out,
and they are equivalent, as long as both are free.
Then you ground one of those wires,
and all of a sudden one of them is null,
and the other is phase.
More common: there will be six of them, three will be grounded together,
resulting in one null/neutral and three phases.

> > > I remember hearing some "UK-trained electrician" telling me that some
> > > single phase stuff is "phase dependent" which is absolute bollocks.
> >

> > It is, in the British system.
> > For example, it is the live wire that must be fused,
> > not the neutral one.
> > The live wire in a British socket must be on the right side.
> ...

>
> I wouldn't use "phase-dependent" to mean the difference between the live
> and the neutral wire.

I wouldn't either, but 'phase' is used with many meanings.
In some cases 'phase' 'line' 'live' 'hot'
are all used with the same meaning.
Standard on European plugs is L and N, without attaching a word to it.
(natural interpretations in many European languages fit)

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

When it is grounded of course.
Your confusion stems rom your failure to see the difference
between polarised and unpolarised systems.
Not surprising, because you live in Spain.

Explanation: sterting at the mains transformer winding one side must be
grounded. (there seems to be no difference of opinion on that)
That makes one wire live, and one wire neutral/null.

From there on you can do two things.
1) Britain and France and others: use polarised sockets and plugs.
You always at all times, also in appliances know which wire is phase and
which of neutral. This can be used for minor design tweaks.

2) Germany, Spain, and others: use unpolarised plugs.
It no longer matters how you wire the sockets and plugs.
Inside an apparatus you don't know which wire is live.
(which is not really a great disadvantage)

Summary: if you have polarised sockets (like UK and F)
phase and neutral are NOT equivalent.

The genius who invented the Europlug found the best compromise:
it is a plug which is polarised in France, (and other countries)
and unpolarised in Germany and Spain. (and other countries)

It is by now a de facto standard, but stupid old-fashoned plugs
can still be found in DIY shops.

For feed-through things like timers the difference must remain:
Spanish ones can't be used in France, and vica versa. [1]

Your insistence that there is only one phase,
and that everything is may be phase is based on deep misunderstandings.

Jan

[1] You will need an 'adaptateur Franco-Allemand'

[J. J. Lodder]

Certainly. It -must- be. (see below)
Hence it is possible that there is a voltage
between the incoming 'ground' (as in Denmark)
and true 'ground', as determined by wet feet on the floor.
In bad cases you can even feel it tingling, when you touch 'ground'.
More practical: touching 'neutral/null' to 'ground'
(both 'system ground' and 'real ground')
will usually trip your ground fault switch.

> > Three phase is another matter. Neutral is "neutral" relative to the
> > offset phases.
>
> I would phrase that differently. The phase voltages are relative to the
> neutral voltage. This is true whether you have a single-phase supply or
> a three-phase supply, or, for that matter, a seven-phase supply.
>
> > How can one of the 2 only wires coming out of a transformer winding
> > be "neutral"?
>
> It depends on what is connected on the secondary side. In many cases, a
> smart designer will ensure that one of the two wires is earthed.

More than just smart, it is essential and unavoidable.
Both the iron core of the power transformer
and one side of the all secondary windings must be grounded.
If not, a single lightning stroke may destroy your system,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

You still have separate 10A 'lighting' groups
and 16A 'power' groups in Spain?
(phased out in France)

Jan

[Jerry Friedman]

On Wednesday, January 10, 2024 at 5:07:06 AM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 10/01/24 22:05, Paul Carmichael wrote:

...

> > The live wire will give you a shock because it's live. The neutral is
> > just as "live" but has been connected to earth, so no longer
> > dangerous. It's really as simple as that. Put an oscilloscope on the
> > mains and tell me there's a difference between L and N. They are
> > identical. This is why it matters absolutely not which way round you
> > connect an appliance. In fact the plugs in my house have no "correct
> > way round".
>
> I think it was Jan who pointed out that the neutral line is connected to
> earth somewhere upstream; but the "somewhere" depends on the policies of
> the supply authority. You can in some situations get a shock from the
> neutral line. Only a few volts, typically, but the effect on you will
> depend on the phase difference between the neutral voltage and the
> timing of your heartbeat.

...

For a few volts?

--
Jerry Friedman

[J. J. Lodder]

Unfortunately far too many Spaniards want to drag Spain
back to the 19th century, like the Generalissimo they admire so much,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Not "Out of Control'?

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Jerry Friedman <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sometimes. If you are standing under a shower,
and you get a pricking feeling in your hands and feet
when you touch a tap it is time to get out asap,
and never to get in again until something has been done about it,

Jan

[Jerry Friedman]

Echa roncas todavía
el siglo decimonono,
con la cabeza vendada,
y los huesos rotos.

--Antonio Machado, "Proverbios y Cantares", in /Nuevas Canciones/ (1924)

The 19th century
still bellows [*],
with its head bandaged,
and its bones broken .

I can't comment on how true that is a century later.

[*] The bellows are those of a stag in rut.

--
Jerry Friedman

[J. J. Lodder]

Jerry Friedman <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:

They have a significant neo-fascist party,
and a big extreme-right party.
(that's extreme right by European standards)
Together somewhat less than a majority.

The left and centre together could keep them out of power
only with the support of the various separatist movements,

Jan

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Aren't you on rather delicate ground after the 2023 Dutch election?
Geert Wilders, who is very popular in the Netherlands, is just as
right-wing as any Spanish person that I know.

Some years ago (2007, I think) I found myself in a major street in
Puerto de la Cruz (Tenerife) called Avenida del Generalísimo Francisco
Franco Bahamonde or something similar. It is no longer called that (it
seems to be Avenida Agular y Quesada), and Google Maps can't find it.
They told me then that apart from Puerto de la Cruz the only city that
still had a street named after Franco was Santander, but when we were
in Santander a few years later there was no sign of it.

[Sam Plusnet]

That "Ancient" wasn't intended to be taken literally.
Here we still (for the moment) have 'copper wire to the house' POTS
phone networks in many places, alongside a fibre optic digital network.
Two technologies with maybe a century between their introduction.

--
Sam Plusnet

[J. J. Lodder]

Wilders cannot be described as neo-fascist
in any meaningful interpretation of that term.
He is more like Farage, in British equivalent.

From what it is worth:
The Dutch vote has become quite volatile.
They have had four different biggest parties
in the last four general elections.

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

[continued]
I looked it up, and it seems that Cornwell has given up
on her superwoman SF fantasy. So probably no charm.

She is again churning out Scarpettas at her regular rate
of one per year, now at #27.
And Scarpetta is technically up to date again:
she now wears an advanced computer controlled smart ring
that is almost as good as a smart watch,

Jan