positive version of 'much less'?

[Yurui Liu]

Does 'much less' have a positive version? Is the following correct?

He can manage the most complicated movements, still/much more a
simple trick like this.

[mrucb...@att.net]

I don't think that works at all. 'Much less' is an idiomatic expression which
is often used when there is no exact 'more' or 'less' in the comparison. One
might hear: "He can manage the most complicated movements, much less a simple
trick." It may not be logical or strictly correct but it would be clearly
understood. Your example, no.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

mrucb...@att.net skrev:

> might hear: "He can manage the most complicated movements, much less a simple
> trick."

Don't you mean "he can't ..."?

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Jerry Friedman]

On 6/1/14 7:55 AM, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> mrucb...@att.net skrev:
>
>> might hear: "He can manage the most complicated movements, much less a simple
>> trick."
>
> Don't you mean "he can't ..."?

He or she said it might not be logical. Here's an example: "A mere 650
square feet is small for a two-person home, though, much less one that
also serves as a do-it-all workspace."

Jess Chamberlain, "Blurring the boundaries", /Sunset/ (magazine), thanks
to COCA.

"Even more so for" or "especially" would work.

I must admit I hadn't noticed this use of "much less".

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

In the most formal contexts, you might be able to get away with "much
more", "much more so", or the Latin phrase "a fortiori". Otherwise I'd
expect something like "He can manage the most complicated movements, so
obviously he can do a simple trick like this."

--
Jerry Friedman

[Guy Barry]

"Yurui Liu" wrote in message
news:ae00fdd5-98aa-4f87...@googlegroups.com...

>
>Does 'much less' have a positive version? Is the following correct?
>
>He can manage the most complicated movements, still/much more a
>simple trick like this.

Sometimes I wish I still had my original edition of Fowler. He had a superb
article on "much more"/"much less" used in the way you describe. Burchfield
mentions one of his original examples:

"It is a full day's work even to open, much less to acknowledge, all the
presents, the letters and the telegrams which arrive on these occasions".

Fowler argued that this should be "much more". I confess that I tend to
avoid such difficulties by using "let alone".

--
Guy Barry

[Peter Percival]

Well, "He can't manage a simple trick, much less the most complicated
movements." would be.

> Your example, no.
>


--
[...] They listened at his heart.
Little-less-nothing!-and that ended it.
No more to build on there. And they, since they
Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs.
"Out, Out-", Robert Frost, 1916.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Try "not to mention."

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, June 1, 2014 10:42:28 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:

> Sometimes I wish I still had my original edition of Fowler.

It's not like they're scarce in usedbook stores. In both regular-
and Bible-paper editions.

And there's the new OUP paperback with Introduction by David Crystal
(which on the cover falsely proclaims it is "edited by" Crystal).

[Stan Brown]

On Sun, 1 Jun 2014 15:55:46 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>
> mrucb...@att.net skrev:
>
> > might hear: "He can manage the most complicated movements, much less a simple
> > trick."
>
> Don't you mean "he can't ..."?

I don't think so. If the OP is trying to say that "he" is incapable,
it would be

"He can't manage a simple trick, much less a complicated one."

The idea is that his ability to do something complicated is less than
his ability to do something simple. Since his ability to do
something simple is assessed as nil, his ability to do something
complicated is negative -- obviously there is hyperbole here.

On the positive end, which the OP was asking about, I can't think of
an equivalent. The OP's order is right, but "much less" is wrong
because "he" can manage a simple trick better than a complicated
ones. Perhaps something like this?

"He can manage the most complicated movements, never mind a simple
trick."

Or perhaps "not to mention" for "never mind". Either way, the idea is
that since he can do the complicated stuff it goes without saying
that he can do simple stuff.

--
"The difference between the /almost right/ word and the /right/ word
is ... the difference between the lightning-bug and the lightning."
--Mark Twain
Stan Brown, Tompkins County, NY, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com

[Robert Bannister]

I'm afraid I can't even take your example. Now, if it had been "He can't
manage the normal hand movements, much less a simple trick", I would
find it normal.

--
Robert Bannister - 1940-71 SE England
1972-now W Australia

[Robert Bannister]

And I got that back to front.