Indian English - Omission of definite article - why?
halcombe
English speech:
"The government may have won the vote, but it has suffered a moral
defeat," Zoya Hasan, a professor of politics at Jawaharlal Nehru
University, said today. "BJP's authority in the government has been
seriously questioned by the anger and disapproval of its own allies."
In British and American English, I think the acronym of any political
party, used as a noun (as opposed to used in attribution), would take
the definite article. As would other party descriptions ('the
Democrats', 'the Conservatives').
In fact, the only exception I can think of is the (British) Labour
Party, which is often referred to shorn of the word 'Party'. As such,
even when qualified by the Blairite 'New', it does not take the
definite article: "Labour and the Conservatives are neck and neck in
the by-election in Bogchester", "New Labour hits out at critics", etc.
(The Australians also have a Labour, or rather, 'Labor', party. I'm
not sure whether they follow the British usage. But I have the (vague)
impression that this is more commonly referred to as the ALP.)
But why does Indian English usage omit the definite article, in this
as in many other situations? Is it because of the influence of the
vernacular languages?
Does Hindi, like Latin, do without a definite article altogether? What
about the other 'Aryan' languages (Bengali, Gujarati, etc)?
Do speakers of Dravidian languages (Malayalam, Tamil, etc) adopt the
same usage when it comes to English as their northern
fellow-countrymen?
When it comes to written English, would the likes of the professor
quoted above look at the omission of the article in a case like this
as a fault to be corrected?
[1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18167-2002May1.html
John Ings
wrote:
>
>Does Hindi, like Latin, do without a definite article altogether?
A friend of mine whose native language is Hindi tells me that he
always has trouble with articles because Hindi doesn't have them.
Erin Billy
INS (Immigration and Naturalization Service) vs. *the* INS.
Most of my colleagues refer to is as "INS," i.e., without the article,
but most of us use the article with "FBI," "CIA," etc.
Which got me wondering whether we tend to do this because of our
contact with non-native speakers, who definitely prefer to drop the
"the."
Anybody want to give their opinion?
On 2 May 2002 22:36:01 -0700, halc...@subdimension.com (halcombe)
wrote:
>The following (taken from [1]) is, I think typical of educated Indian
>English speech:
>
>"The government may have won the vote, but it has suffered a moral
>defeat," Zoya Hasan, a professor of politics at Jawaharlal Nehru
>University, said today. "BJP's authority in the government has been
>seriously questioned by the anger and disapproval of its own allies."
==========================
Erin Billy
TestMagic.com
e-mail: erin...@NOTcoldMail.com
You can figure it out...
Richard Fontana
> Funny you should bring that up. I've been thinking a lot lately about
> INS (Immigration and Naturalization Service) vs. *the* INS.
>
> Most of my colleagues refer to is as "INS," i.e., without the article,
> but most of us use the article with "FBI," "CIA," etc.
>
> Which got me wondering whether we tend to do this because of our
> contact with non-native speakers, who definitely prefer to drop the
> "the."
>
> Anybody want to give their opinion?
Who are your colleagues? That might be relevant.
As Laurel Insiders like R.J. Valentine, Joseph Manfre or Advocate
Lieblich can tell you, Laurel Insiders generally omit the "the" from
the names of these alphabet-soup government agencies. Laurel Outsiders
don't do this, and so we get a convenient way of distinguishing Laurel
Insiders from Laurel Outsiders.
Joe Fineman
> Funny you should bring that up. I've been thinking a lot lately
> about INS (Immigration and Naturalization Service) vs. *the* INS.
>
> Most of my colleagues refer to is as "INS," i.e., without the
> article, but most of us use the article with "FBI," "CIA," etc.
>
> Which got me wondering whether we tend to do this because of our
> contact with non-native speakers, who definitely prefer to drop the
> "the."
>
> Anybody want to give their opinion?
My usage, and my impression of U.S. usage, is that "the" is omitted if
(1) It isn't there in the spelled-out name: MIT
(2) The abbreviated name is prounounced as a word rather than as
separate letters: NATO, UNESCO, NASA
(3) It is regarded as a symbol rather than an abbreviation: AC (for
the axiom of choice in mathematics)
So I would use "the" with INS as well as FBI, CIA, US, EU, etc.
--
--- Joe Fineman j...@TheWorld.com
||: If you do the right thing under duress, you still get :||
||: credit, but you don't have as much fun. :||
Richard Fontana
>My usage, and my impression of U.S. usage, is that "the" is omitted if
>
>(1) It isn't there in the spelled-out name: MIT
Wot? The spelled-out name is "*the* Massachusetts Institute of
Technology". You can say
Mike Hardy works at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
Mike Hardy works at MIT.
But not:
*Mike Hardy works at Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
*Mike Hardy works at the MIT.
No matter how you look at it, "the" is part of the full name. It may be,
however, that MIT is an exception to a more general rule. Maybe a
university name exception.
>(2) The abbreviated name is prounounced as a word rather than as
> separate letters: NATO, UNESCO, NASA
That seems right.
>(3) It is regarded as a symbol rather than an abbreviation: AC (for
> the axiom of choice in mathematics)
>So I would use "the" with INS as well as FBI, CIA, US, EU, etc.
I would too (when they're used as nouns); of course Laurel Insider English
(LIE) is to the contrary.
John Riley
<erin...@notCOLDmail.com> wrote:
>Funny you should bring that up. I've been thinking a lot lately about
>INS (Immigration and Naturalization Service) vs. *the* INS.
>
>Most of my colleagues refer to is as "INS," i.e., without the article,
>but most of us use the article with "FBI," "CIA," etc.
>
>Which got me wondering whether we tend to do this because of our
>contact with non-native speakers, who definitely prefer to drop the
>"the."
>
>Anybody want to give their opinion?
At first, BJP in the original sentence didn't bother me, but on trying
to think of other examples without the article, I was stuck, until I
remembered the Australian habit of giving things "nick names".
We have a bank called National Australia Bank (NAB) and most would
call it The NAB unless they were economical media types. "NAB drops
two cents overnight". Now many Australians love to irreverently call
things by a familiar nickname, and The NAB has copped NABBY.
So an expression might go. "Bloody Nabby has just closed my loan
account, the bastards!"
So I wonder whether the article tends to get dropped, the more
familiar folk become with an organisation's acronym, and the more they
regard it as a person. You wouldn't refer to "The Riley" for yours
truly unless you were confusing him with a rather interesting brand of
car. But "Riley is a silly Ozzie" is normal IME.
ATB John
Ambarish
> Does Hindi, like Latin, do without a definite article altogether? What
> about the other 'Aryan' languages (Bengali, Gujarati, etc)?
Hindi, like its parent Sanskrit, does not have articles.
> Do speakers of Dravidian languages (Malayalam, Tamil, etc) adopt the
> same usage when it comes to English as their northern
> fellow-countrymen?
Tamil (my native tongue) and other Dravidian languages do not have articles
either. One uses demonstrative adjectives or numbers instead.
> When it comes to written English, would the likes of the professor
> quoted above look at the omission of the article in a case like this
> as a fault to be corrected?
As far as I have seen in newspaper articles and the like, many Indians,
(especially in writing) take care to use the definite article [1, 2].
It seems to me that it is out of ignorance that Indians miss the definite
article and that they would be willing to correct such errors.
--
Ambarish
[1] http://www.hinduonnet.com/stories/2002051404620100.htm
"The Congress demanded Mr. Sinha's resignation ..."
[2] http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Articleshow.asp?art_id=9860530
"The BJP has issued a whip asking party MLAs in Uttar Pradesh to be present
in the House ..."
Skitt
"Ambarish" <iidm...@insightbb.removethis.com> wrote:
> <snip>
>
> > Does Hindi, like Latin, do without a definite article altogether? What
> > about the other 'Aryan' languages (Bengali, Gujarati, etc)?
>
> Hindi, like its parent Sanskrit, does not have articles.
Latvian, also having Sanskrit influence, does not have articles either.
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
I speak English well -- I learn it from a book!
-- Manuel (Fawlty Towers)
Richard Fontana
>
>"Ambarish" <iidm...@insightbb.removethis.com> wrote:
>
>> <snip>
>>
>> > Does Hindi, like Latin, do without a definite article altogether? What
>> > about the other 'Aryan' languages (Bengali, Gujarati, etc)?
>>
>> Hindi, like its parent Sanskrit, does not have articles.
>
>Latvian, also having Sanskrit influence,
Say what?
Skitt
"Richard Fontana" <rfon...@wesleyan.edu> wrote in message
news:slrnae350d....@localhost.localdomain...
What I said. See:
http://www.hamilton.net/drfootball/Latvian.htm
http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi15.htm
http://www.baltfest.org/latvia.php?lang=en
http://meadev.nic.in/perspec/feb2001/ivbulis.htm
http://www.lmhi.net/his_latvia.html
http://school.discovery.com/students/homeworkhelp/worldbook/atozgeography/l/
314760.html
and other sites.
Don Aitken
wrote:
>
>"Richard Fontana" <rfon...@wesleyan.edu> wrote in message
>news:slrnae350d....@localhost.localdomain...
>> On Tue, 14 May 2002 12:39:24 -0700 Skitt wrote:
>> >
>> >"Ambarish" <iidm...@insightbb.removethis.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> <snip>
>> >>
>> >> > Does Hindi, like Latin, do without a definite article altogether?
>What
>> >> > about the other 'Aryan' languages (Bengali, Gujarati, etc)?
>> >>
>> >> Hindi, like its parent Sanskrit, does not have articles.
>> >
>> >Latvian, also having Sanskrit influence,
>>
>> Say what?
>
>What I said. See:
>http://www.hamilton.net/drfootball/Latvian.htm
>http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi15.htm
>http://www.baltfest.org/latvia.php?lang=en
>http://meadev.nic.in/perspec/feb2001/ivbulis.htm
>http://www.lmhi.net/his_latvia.html
>http://school.discovery.com/students/homeworkhelp/worldbook/atozgeography/l/
>314760.html
>
and Sanskrit have diverged less far from proto-IE than other IE
languages, rather than that either had any influence on the other.
When the ancestors of their present speakers were last in contact,
neither language yet existed.
--
Don Aitken
John Smith
>
> I think a strictly accurate way of putting it would be that Latvian
> and Sanskrit have diverged less far from proto-IE than other IE
> languages, rather than that either had any influence on the other.
> When the ancestors of their present speakers were last in contact,
> neither language yet existed.
But proto-Latvian dialect and proto-Sanskrit dialect did. And one may
have influenced the other.
\\P. Schultz