Old Englisch: "Swifan"
Michael Pachta
I recently watched the film "Beowulf" (2007), a computer animated film
dealing with the famous Beowulf saga.
In one scene a warrior sang a song:
<quote>
There was a dozen virgins,
Friesians, Danes and Franks
We took them for some swifan
And all we got were wanks
</quote>
I wanted to know what "swifan" means and found that it is an old English
word meaning "to have sex" (among other meanings that are less bawdy).
My actual question is: how vulgar is the use of "swifan" here (as
compared to, let's say, screwing)?
The same question applies to "wanks". That word seems to be related to
"to wank" which I consider to be quite vulgar. But I've never come
across "wank" as a noun.
James Hogg
>Hello,
>
>I recently watched the film "Beowulf" (2007), a computer animated film
>dealing with the famous Beowulf saga.
>
>In one scene a warrior sang a song:
>
><quote>
>There was a dozen virgins,
>Friesians, Danes and Franks
>We took them for some swifan
>And all we got were wanks
></quote>
>
>I wanted to know what "swifan" means and found that it is an old English
>word meaning "to have sex" (among other meanings that are less bawdy).
>
>My actual question is: how vulgar is the use of "swifan" here (as
>compared to, let's say, screwing)?
It could hardly be described as vulgar at all because I doubt if
many of the people who see that film will have heard the word
before. It is archaic or obsolete, known best to people who have
read Chaucer. They used it in the Beowulf song because it is
archaic.
In Old English (and the related Germanic languages), however, it
would not have been vulgar at all because it doesn't seem to have
had any sexual connotations back then. At least, it's not
recorded in that sense until the fourteenth century. The root
meaning (rather than the "root" meaning) is some kind of sweeping
or hovering movement, so it's understandable how it came to be
used of sex.
>The same question applies to "wanks". That word seems to be related to
>"to wank" which I consider to be quite vulgar. But I've never come
>across "wank" as a noun.
You must have lived a sheltered life. The noun is very common
and, yes, it could be described as quite vulgar. The Oxford
English Dictionary defines it as "(an act of) masturbation" and
says "This word and its derivatives are not in polite use."
It's an interesting song, full of anachronisms, such as
references to codpieces and Iceland in a song that's supposed to
have been sung in the sixth century:
http://www.movietranscriptions.com/300425_Beowulf_2007_KLAXXON.html#p380
--
James
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I recently watched the film "Beowulf" (2007), a computer animated film
>dealing with the famous Beowulf saga.
>
>In one scene a warrior sang a song:
>
><quote>
>There was a dozen virgins,
>Friesians, Danes and Franks
>We took them for some swifan
>And all we got were wanks
></quote>
>
>I wanted to know what "swifan" means and found that it is an old English
>word meaning "to have sex" (among other meanings that are less bawdy).
>
>My actual question is: how vulgar is the use of "swifan" here (as
>compared to, let's say, screwing)?
>
That's difficult to answer because "swifan" is a very old word that is
no longer in use. The vast majority of viewers of the film would guess
the meaning of "swifan" from the context - at least those who are
familiar with trhe word "wanks".
>The same question applies to "wanks". That word seems to be related to
>"to wank" which I consider to be quite vulgar. But I've never come
>across "wank" as a noun.
According to the quotations in the OED the noun "wank" is older than the
verb. The noun:
1948 PARTRIDGE Dict. Forces' Slang 203 Wank-pit,..a bed. (Air
Force.)
The verb:
1950 P. TEMPEST Lag's Lexicon 229 Whank, to, to masturbate.
The origin is unknown, and:
This word and its derivatives are not in polite use.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Tasha Miller
> Hello,
>
> I recently watched the film "Beowulf" (2007), a computer animated film
> dealing with the famous Beowulf saga.
>
> In one scene a warrior sang a song:
>
> <quote>
> There was a dozen virgins,
> Friesians, Danes and Franks
> We took them for some swifan
> And all we got were wanks
> </quote>
>
> I wanted to know what "swifan" means and found that it is an old
> English word meaning "to have sex" (among other meanings that are
> less bawdy).
>
Swifan (or swive, -ing) seems merely quaintly cheeky to me and in one sense,
at least, it's far less vulgar than the sexual meaning of screw. That is,
I'd expect far more people to know what screwing meant!
> My actual question is: how vulgar is the use of "swifan" here (as
> compared to, let's say, screwing)?
>
> The same question applies to "wanks". That word seems to be related to
> "to wank" which I consider to be quite vulgar. But I've never come
> across "wank" as a noun.
Haven't you? Gosh! As well as the obvious sense a wank can also describe an
activity that was a waste of time or behaviour that could be considered
silly or showing off.
And, yes, it's vulgar as a verb or a noun in any sense, in my opinion.
Michael Pachta
> Swifan (or swive, -ing) seems merely quaintly cheeky to me and in one
> sense, at least, it's far less vulgar than the sexual meaning of screw.
I see.
>> The same question applies to "wanks". That word seems to be related to
>> "to wank" which I consider to be quite vulgar. But I've never come
>> across "wank" as a noun.
>
> Haven't you? Gosh!
<shrug> Although I knew "to wank" and "wanker" before I've never read
nor heard the noun "wank". </shrug>
> As well as the obvious sense a wank can also
> describe an activity that was a waste of time or behaviour that could be
> considered silly or showing off.
>
> And, yes, it's vulgar as a verb or a noun in any sense, in my opinion.
I actually thought the same, so I also thought that "swifan" was
comparable to "wank" in terms of vulgarity. But obviously it is not, so
the use of "swifan" in the quoted song doesn't really fit to the use of
"wank" because "wank" appears to be much more vulgar than "swifan".
Don Phillipson
news:7h6jdiF...@mid.individual.net...
> Michael Pachta wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I recently watched the film "Beowulf" (2007), a computer animated film
> > dealing with the famous Beowulf saga.
> >
> > In one scene a warrior sang a song:
> >
> > <quote>
> > There was a dozen virgins,
> > Friesians, Danes and Franks
> > We took them for some swifan
> > And all we got were wanks
> > </quote>
> >
> > I wanted to know what "swifan" means and found that it is an old
> > English word meaning "to have sex" (among other meanings that are
> > less bawdy).
> >
>
> Swifan (or swive, -ing) seems merely quaintly cheeky to me and in one
sense,
> at least, it's far less vulgar than the sexual meaning of screw. That is,
> I'd expect far more people to know what screwing meant!
We may be able to distinguish better between (for some
particular date, say 900 AD for Beowulf)
1. What swive meant, i.e. what we would find in a dictionary.
2. Contemporary social evironment, e.g. what the community
censored or disapproved as unsayable, although the meaning
was understood. E.g. prudish Victorians invented the phrase
"criminal conversation" as an acceptable euphemism for
adultery, which although understood was socially unsayable.
Generally, the literary record suggests that in many periods
before the Victorian nothing much was socially unsayable.
No one knows any more than surviving writings suggest.
The makers of the Beowulf film were no doubt aware of
this, and sought to bridge 1000 years of changing social ideas,
and could not avoid contemporary feelings that the word swive
was cheeky or quaint, but they had to guess, like you and I.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
The makers of the Beowulf cartoon were probably
R H Draney
>>dealing with the famous Beowulf saga.
>>
>>In one scene a warrior sang a song:
>>
>><quote>
>>There was a dozen virgins,
>>Friesians, Danes and Franks
>>We took them for some swifan
>>And all we got were wanks
>></quote>
>
>references to codpieces and Iceland in a song that's supposed to
>have been sung in the sixth century:
No doubt as a concession to the audience, most of the characters in the film
speak a vaguely "old-fashioned" form of Modern English, but there was the
amusing touch of having Grendel speak Old English (his mother too, when
conversing with him)....r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
Christian Weisgerber
> >There was a dozen virgins,
> >Friesians, Danes and Franks
> >We took them for some swifan
> >And all we got were wanks
>
> It could hardly be described as vulgar at all because I doubt if
> many of the people who see that film will have heard the word
> before. It is archaic or obsolete, known best to people who have
> read Chaucer. They used it in the Beowulf song because it is
> archaic.
And because the film ratings board would not consider it profanity
unsuitable for children.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
James Silverton
It's interesting that there are several Middle English words beginning
with "sw" all of which have unappealing connotations. Didn't Chaucer say
that Austin's swink (manual labor) did not appeal to his monk?
--
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
Mike Lyle
"Michael Pachta" <mip...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:7h6f75F...@mid.individual.net...
"Four-and-twenty virgins
Came doon frae Inverness.
And when the ball was over,
There were still four-and-twenty because the train was late."
--
Mike.
Don Phillipson
news:h8mber$2p9$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> It's interesting that there are several Middle English words beginning
> with "sw" all of which have unappealing connotations. Didn't Chaucer say
> that Austin's swink (manual labor) did not appeal to his monk?
Background for people who have not reread the Canterbury
Tales lately: there were two main alternative Rules for monastic
orders, those of Augustine which prescribed manual labour for
everyone and those of Benedict which focussed on prayer and
sedentary work (as a scribe, painter, etc.) Chaucer's monk
preferred the latter, that's all. (I do not doubt JS knows this.)
Peter Moylan
I can understand that most children wouldn't know that "swifan" means
"swive"; but really, how many children today don't know the meaning
of "wank"?
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Peter Moylan
> "Four-and-twenty virgins
> Came doon frae Inverness.
> And when the ball was over,
> There were still four-and-twenty because the train was late."
Four and twenty virgins
Went down to Kirriemuir
And when the ball was over
There were four and twenty fewer.
(The version for those who are having trouble finding a rhyme for
"Inverness".)
Jerry Friedman
>
> >>> There was a dozen virgins,
> >>> Friesians, Danes and Franks
> >>> We took them for some swifan
> >>> And all we got were wanks
> >> It could hardly be described as vulgar at all because I doubt if
> >> many of the people who see that film will have heard the word
> >> before. It is archaic or obsolete, known best to people who have
> >> read Chaucer. They used it in the Beowulf song because it is
> >> archaic.
>
> > And because the film ratings board would not consider it profanity
> > unsuitable for children.
>
> I can understand that most children wouldn't know that "swifan" means
> "swive"; but really, how many children today don't know the meaning
> of "wank"?
In what country?
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
Indeed. Britsh viewers enjoyed the unintentional humour of the maiden
name of a character in the TV show _Married... with Children_
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Married..._with_Children#Peggy_Bundy
the Omrud
And, I think, one of the technical crew on Buffy, and a character in
Mork & Mindy. Son used to watch the credits of Buffy through so that he
could roar with laughter at the end of every episode.
--
David
James Hogg
The writers couldn't think of any Dark Age Germanic tribe rhyming
with "hand jobs".
Nor can I.
--
James
Nick
I'm reminded of John Cleese saying "Wankel Rotary Engine" in "Are you
Embarrassed Easily?".
--
Online waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk
development version: http://canalplan.eu
Jerry Friedman
wrote:
That may have been a private joke on the part of some knowing writer.
Lots of Brits in Hollywood, after all.
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
> Quoth Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com>, and I quote:
Note to self: Write historical fiction set in northern Europe in the
Dark Ages. Make up names of tribes.
By the way, I first encountered "hand job" to mean masturbation in
Martin Amis's /Money/. As far as I know, in America it's always a job
somebody does for somebody else.
--
Jerry Friedman
James Hogg
I wondered about that as I wrote it. Is there a normal slang noun
for this in AmE that would be used in a context like the
following:
"I just thought I'd have a quick ****."
You're allowed to use more than four letters.
--
James
Default User
Do you really think that was unintentional? I'm sure lots of viewers
didn't get it, but I believe the writers knew what it meant in other
versions of English.
Brian
--
Day 225 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project
Jerry Friedman
> Quoth Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com>, and I quote:>
> >On Sep 15, 9:14 am, James Hogg <Jas.H...@gOUTmail.com> wrote:
[song from /Beowulf/ movie]
> >> The writers couldn't think of any Dark Age Germanic tribe rhyming
> >> with "hand jobs".
>
> >> Nor can I.
>
> >Note to self: Write historical fiction set in northern Europe in the
> >Dark Ages. Make up names of tribes.
>
> >By the way, I first encountered "hand job" to mean masturbation in
> >Martin Amis's /Money/. As far as I know, in America it's always a job
> >somebody does for somebody else.
>
> I wondered about that as I wrote it. Is there a normal slang noun
> for this in AmE that would be used in a context like the
> following:
>
> "I just thought I'd have a quick ****."
In my experience, such sentences aren't grammatical in the first
person in AmE, except as a figure of speech meaning "doing nothing".
> You're allowed to use more than four letters.
I can't think of one with any number of letters. However, it's been a
while since I moved in circles where masturbation was a frequent
topic, so slang may have moved on without me (as practical jokes
played on unconscious friends have, to cite a not unrelated thread).
There are lots of relevant verbs, and no doubt people would understand
if someone nouned them.
--
Jerry Friedman