Hemingway - barrel of laughs
John Dean
some jokes referred to in "Farewell to Arms". I tried a mainly US group to
see if anyone knew them but no luck. Here's my post:
Well, OK, I think we all know Papa wasn't the funniest guy to pick up a pen.
I was drawn to re-read Farewell to Arms and I found a passage about Frederic
telling jokes. I did a little on-line searching to see if I could find the
original jokes. (Papa wouldn't pretend jokes existed when they didn't. Would
he?) and all I found was this essay:
http://english.la.psu.edu/engl297a/oldjournal/group_3/Vol_1_No_1/goldfarb.htm
"Three of them-"the story about the English private soldier who was placed
under the shower bath," "the story of the jockey who found the penny," and
"the story about the traveling salesman who arrived at four o'clock in the
morning at Marseilles when the mistral was blowing"-are de-emphasized by
Frederic's mere mention of them in his narrative (39). (He does not actually
tell them to the reader.)"
Those are the three jokes I was wondering about. Anyone know what the actual
jokes were?
--
John Dean
Oxford
James Hogg
No idea, but your question about the jockey joke reminded me of a
joke I didn't get when I read the novel forty years ago:
"The only good sign was that Pablo was carrying the pack and that
he had given him the carbine. Perhaps he is always like that,
Robert Jordan thought. Maybe he is just one of the gloomy ones.
"No, he said to himself, don't fool yourself. You do not know how
he was before; but you do know that he is going bad fast and
without hiding it. When he starts to hide it he will have made a
decision. Remember that, he told himself. The first friendly
thing he does, he will have made a decision. They are awfully
good horses, though, he thought, beautiful horses. I wonder what
could make me feel the way those horses make Pablo feel. The old
man was right. The horses made him rich and as soon as he was
rich he wanted to enjoy life. Pretty soon he'll feel bad because
he can't join the Jockey Club, I guess, he thought. Pauvre Pablo.
Il a manqu� son Jockey.
"That idea made him feel better. He grinned, looking at the two
bent backs and the big packs ahead of him moving through the
trees. He had not made any jokes with himself all day and now
that he had made one he felt much better."
Robert Jordan's joke may have made him feel better, but I still
haven't got over the trauma of not understanding it.
--
James
James Hogg
<snip nearly everything>
>No idea, but your question about the jockey joke reminded me of a
>joke I didn't get when I read the novel forty years ago:
I am of course referring to a different novel, "For Whom the Bell
Palsy"
--
James
LFS
<giggle>
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
James Hogg
>James Hogg wrote:
>> Hastily correcting my own post:
>>
>> <snip nearly everything>
>>
>>> No idea, but your question about the jockey joke reminded me of a
>>> joke I didn't get when I read the novel forty years ago:
>>
>> I am of course referring to a different novel, "For Whom the Bell
>> Palsy"
>>
>
><giggle>
I've been Googling in the hope of finding an explanation for
Hemingway's joke. The best I could find was a site on the
misinformation superhighway which translated the Spanish [sic]
phrase "il a manque son jockey" into English as "his dj missed
him".
I kid you not. It carries the Noam Webster seal of approval:
http://www.websters-online-dictionary.net/translation/Spanish/il+a+manque+son+jockey
--
James
Mark Brader
>> ... The horses made him rich and as soon as he was
>> rich he wanted to enjoy life. Pretty soon he'll feel bad because
>> he can't join the Jockey Club, I guess, he thought. Pauvre Pablo.
>> Il a manqu� son Jockey.
>> That idea made him feel better. He grinned, looking at the two
>> bent backs and the big packs ahead of him moving through the
>> trees. He had not made any jokes with himself all day and now
>> that he had made one he felt much better.
James Hogg:
> Robert Jordan's joke may have made him feel better, but I still
> haven't got over the trauma of not understanding it.
Isn't it just that he made a sort of rhyme? Jockey and manqu�?
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "E-mail is amazing when it's amazing!"
m...@vex.net -- Robert Biddle
James Hogg
>Ernest Hemingway:
>>> ... The horses made him rich and as soon as he was
>>> rich he wanted to enjoy life. Pretty soon he'll feel bad because
>>> he can't join the Jockey Club, I guess, he thought. Pauvre Pablo.
>>> Il a manqu� son Jockey.
>
>>> That idea made him feel better. He grinned, looking at the two
>>> bent backs and the big packs ahead of him moving through the
>>> trees. He had not made any jokes with himself all day and now
>>> that he had made one he felt much better.
>
>James Hogg:
>> Robert Jordan's joke may have made him feel better, but I still
>> haven't got over the trauma of not understanding it.
>
>Isn't it just that he made a sort of rhyme? Jockey and manqu�?
If so, he was easily amused.
--
James
LFS
Isn't it something to do with underwear? Jockey shorts?
Evan Kirshenbaum
Jockey shorts date to 1934, according to the company site. The book
was published in 1929.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
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(650)857-7572
Vinny Burgoo
> LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes:
> > James Hogg wrote:
> >>>> Ernest Hemingway:
> >>>>> ... The horses made him rich and as soon as he was rich he
> >>>>> wanted to enjoy life. Pretty soon he'll feel bad because he
> >>>>> can't join the Jockey Club, I guess, he thought. Pauvre Pablo.
> >>>>> Il a manqué son Jockey. That idea made him feel better. He
> >>>>> grinned, looking at the two bent backs and the big packs ahead
> >>>>> of him moving through the trees. He had not made any jokes with
> >>>>> himself all day and now that he had made one he felt much
> >>>>> better.
> >>> Isn't it just that he made a sort of rhyme? Jockey and manqué?
> >> If so, he was easily amused.
> > Isn't it something to do with underwear? Jockey shorts?
> Jockey shorts date to 1934, according to the company site. The book
> was published in 1929.
'Jockey' is a slang word for a penis. (But what isn't?) It's a variant
of 'jockum, -am', for which Eric Partridge supplied the following
usage example in his _Dictionary of the Underworld_:
'There was a proud patrico and a nose-gent, he took his Jockam in his
famble, and a wappinge he went, he dokte the Dell, he pryge to
praunce, hy bunged a waste into the darke mans, he fylcht the Cofe,
with out any fylchman.'
Nasty! (Or nice. I got lost after 'wappinge'.)
It's probably equally relevant that Hemingway is said to have had a
very small jockey.
--
VB
Peter Moylan
That's a depressing story. It left me with Down Syndrome.
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Robert Bannister
But were they called that back then? I thought even Y-fronts would have
been a bit modern for the period.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes:
>
>> James Hogg wrote:
>>> Quoth m...@vex.net (Mark Brader), and I quote:
>>>> Ernest Hemingway:
>>>>>> ... The horses made him rich and as soon as he was rich he
>>>>>> wanted to enjoy life. Pretty soon he'll feel bad because he
>>>>>> can't join the Jockey Club, I guess, he thought. Pauvre Pablo.
>>>>>> Il a manqu� son Jockey. That idea made him feel better. He
>>>>>> grinned, looking at the two bent backs and the big packs ahead
>>>>>> of him moving through the trees. He had not made any jokes with
>>>>>> himself all day and now that he had made one he felt much
>>>>>> better.
>>>> James Hogg:
>>>>> Robert Jordan's joke may have made him feel better, but I still
>>>>> haven't got over the trauma of not understanding it.
>>>> Isn't it just that he made a sort of rhyme? Jockey and manqu�?
>>> If so, he was easily amused.
>>>
>> Isn't it something to do with underwear? Jockey shorts?
>
> Jockey shorts date to 1934, according to the company site. The book
> was published in 1929.
>
I am amazed. I don't think I met the term until the 50s at least,
although "jock strap" was known.
--
Rob Bannister
Evan Kirshenbaum
You got me worried that maybe the web site merely meant that the style
was invented in 1934, but they weren't actually called "jockey shorts"
until later. (The company was "S.T. Cooper" back then.) But I see
"Jockey shorts and shirts" advertised as "The first _new_ style in
men's underwear in 15 years ...first showing in New York at WALLACH'S"
in the March 6th, 1935 _New York Times_.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Sometimes I think the surest sign
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |that intelligent life exists
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |elsewhere in the universe is that
|none of it has tried to contact us.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | Calvin
(650)857-7572
James Hogg
>On Sep 15, 8:33�pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenb...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>> LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes:
>> > James Hogg wrote:
>> >> ? wrote:
>> >>>> Ernest Hemingway:
>
>> >>>>> ... The horses made him rich and as soon as he was rich he
>> >>>>> wanted to enjoy life. Pretty soon he'll feel bad because he
>> >>>>> can't join the Jockey Club, I guess, he thought. Pauvre Pablo.
>> >>>>> Il a manqu� son Jockey. �That idea made him feel better. He
>> >>>>> grinned, looking at the two bent backs and the big packs ahead
>> >>>>> of him moving through the trees. He had not made any jokes with
>> >>>>> himself all day and now that he had made one he felt much
>> >>>>> better.
>
>> >>> Isn't it just that he made a sort of rhyme? �Jockey and manqu�?
>
>> >> If so, he was easily amused.
>
>> > Isn't it something to do with underwear? Jockey shorts?
>
>> Jockey shorts date to 1934, according to the company site. �The book
>> was published in 1929.
>
>'Jockey' is a slang word for a penis. (But what isn't?) It's a variant
>of 'jockum, -am', for which Eric Partridge supplied the following
>usage example in his _Dictionary of the Underworld_:
>
>'There was a proud patrico and a nose-gent, he took his Jockam in his
>famble, and a wappinge he went, he dokte the Dell, he pryge to
>praunce, hy bunged a waste into the darke mans, he fylcht the Cofe,
>with out any fylchman.'
>
>Nasty! (Or nice. I got lost after 'wappinge'.)
>
>It's probably equally relevant that Hemingway is said to have had a
>very small jockey.
My first reaction was "Eureka" (although of course in the second
person singular form "Eurekas" since it was not my discovery).
Then the old doubts began to creep in. If the slang word is
"jockum", why did Hemingway use "jockey"? Would he have known
this slang word in the first place? And why make the joke in
French? Why not: "Poor Pablo, he didn't get beyond the Jockey
short list"?
Is it some elaborate French pun like "�le amant qu'est songe au
quai" or something equally meaningless?
The trauma continues...
--
James
John Dean
OED has 19th C cites for 'jockey strap' as a variant of 'jockstrap'
""1896 Crescent (Brooklyn, N.Y.) 1 Dec. 33/1 (Advt.), Suspensories,
*Jockey Straps. 1909 Spalding's Athletic Library (N.Y.) Group XV. No. 333
(Advt.), Bike Jockey Strap Suspensory."
Maybe they were known as 'jockeys' for a while.
--
John Dean
Oxford
CDB
It is a little strained, but I was wondering if there could be a
connection with "manquer son coup", punning on "cup". That would
require some form of "jockey shorts", or perhaps a diminutive form of
"jock(strap)" to have been in use at the time.
Aha:
'In 1874,[1][5] Charles Bennett of the Chicago sporting goods company,
Sharp & Smith, invented the jockstrap. The original name of Bennett's
invention was the Bike Jockey Strap and its logo, a large bicycle
wheel. The jockey strap was intended, first, for "bicycle jockeys",
and secondly, for horseback riders. The "bike jockey strap" became
known as a "jock strap" and, eventually, simply a "jock".'
Even though I can't find how old the associated cup is; and even
though it's Wikip.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jockstrap#History
CDB
> Even though I can't find how old the associated cup is; and even
> though it's Wikip.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jockstrap#History
On further reflection -- being dragged across country marvellously
stimulating to the grey cells -- I think the undergarment motif may be
without foundation. I do think more than ever that it's a pun on
coup/(cup), but the jockey cup as a prize for horse-racing seems much
more relevant. According to this hit from Googlebooks, the term goes
back at least as far as 1873.
>
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=QOQYc1CoieIC&q=%22jockey+cup%22&dq=%22jockey+cup%22
http://preview.tinyurl.com/ntqxq7
I couldn't bring myself to excommunicate the patrico and the
nose-gent, so I left everything in.
James Hogg
But the pun wouldn't work. The "coup" in "manquer son coup" and
the "coupe" meaning "cup" aren't pronounced the same in French,
no more than "coup de gr�ce" is the French for "lawnmower".
--
James
Mike Lyle
[...]
> It is a little strained, but I was wondering if there could be a
> connection with "manquer son coup", punning on "cup". That would
> require some form of "jockey shorts", or perhaps a diminutive form of
> "jock(strap)" to have been in use at the time.
>
> Aha:
>
> 'In 1874,[1][5] Charles Bennett of the Chicago sporting goods company,
> Sharp & Smith, invented the jockstrap. The original name of Bennett's
> invention was the Bike Jockey Strap and its logo, a large bicycle
> wheel. The jockey strap was intended, first, for "bicycle jockeys",
> and secondly, for horseback riders. The "bike jockey strap" became
> known as a "jock strap" and, eventually, simply a "jock".'
>
> Even though I can't find how old the associated cup is; and even
> though it's Wikip.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jockstrap#History
I haven't got the reference to hand, but in the wrong bit of my filing
cabinet, but I think the garment was invented long before. Perhaps
Bennett made the name public, or conceivably invented it. They were
advertised in _The Field_ as "suspensories". The normal British slang
abbreviation WIWAL was "jocker", not "jock" (cf "soccer" and "rugger").
Similarly, in Imperial English, the equivalent of N.Am. "cup" is "box".
--
Mike.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
WIWAL "jock strap" had not arrived in BrE. The item was known as an
"athletic support".
Being non-athletic, indeed anti-athletic, I never came within smelling
distance of one.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
CDB
attributions missing]
>>>>>>> James Hogg wrote:
>>>>>>>> ? wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ernest Hemingway:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ... The horses made him rich and as soon as he was rich he
>>>>>>>>>>> wanted to enjoy life. Pretty soon he'll feel bad because
>>>>>>>>>>> he can't join the Jockey Club, I guess, he thought. Pauvre
>>>>>>>>>>> Pablo. Il a manqu� son Jockey. That idea made him feel
>>>>>>>>>>> better. He grinned, looking at the two bent backs and the
>>>>>>>>>>> big packs ahead of him moving through the trees. He had
>>>>>>>>>>> not made any jokes with himself all day and now that he
>>>>>>>>>>> had made one he felt much better.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Isn't it just that he made a sort of rhyme? Jockey and
>>>>>>>>> manqu�?
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If so, he was easily amused.
>>>>>
>>> It is a little strained, but I was wondering if there could be a
>>> connection with "manquer son coup", punning on "cup". That would
>>> require some form of "jockey shorts", or perhaps a diminutive form
>>> of "jock(strap)" to have been in use at the time.
>>>
>>> Aha:
>>>
>>> [evidence]
>
>>> Even though I can't find how old the associated cup is; and even
>>> though it's Wikip.
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jockstrap#History
>>
>> On further reflection -- being dragged across country marvellously
>> stimulating to the grey cells -- I think the undergarment motif
>> may be without foundation. I do think more than ever that it's a
>> pun on coup/(cup), but the jockey cup as a prize for horse-racing
>> seems much more relevant. According to this hit from Googlebooks,
>> the term goes back at least as far as 1873.
>>>
>> http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=QOQYc1CoieIC&q=%22jockey+cup%22&dq=%22jockey+cup%22
>> http://preview.tinyurl.com/ntqxq7
>>
[...]
>
> But the pun wouldn't work. The "coup" in "manquer son coup" and
> the "coupe" meaning "cup" aren't pronounced the same in French,
> no more than "coup de gr�ce" is the French for "lawnmower".
Indeed, no more than the English "coup" and "cup"; but that last is a
pun from _Fractured French_, n'est-ce pas? If it isn't, it could be.
And the character's name is Robert Jordan, the author's Ernest
Hemingway. They probably both said "coop* de grass" (if not "coop de
Grace"), at least in English.
An English speaker in Spain (where it wouldn't work at all --
copa/golpe) is talking to himself in English, and breaks suddenly into
French. We are told that he has made a joke. I don't think an
English/French pun is unlikely.
*Sorry, TC.
CDB
Woke up of the same opinion, but here's a possibility, also an E-F
pun, that might have added to the joke for our boys: "he has mankied
his jockey" -- soiled his wee man, put his foot wrong, blotted his
escutcheon (as I say to my dog when checking his bloomers for
indiscretions).
I think the jockey cup is still primary, since it fits so well with
the horse story, but this irrelevant naughtiness might provide an
added fillip. The only other drawback I can see is that "jockey", as
a diminutive, sounds very Scottish, and "mankie" in Scots is a kind of
fabric, as in the Reel o' Stumpie: "My daddy was a fiddler fine, my
minnie she made mankie-o". (As I'm sure you know; but maybe some
don't.)
Evan Kirshenbaum
> WIWAL "jock strap" had not arrived in BrE. The item was known as an
> "athletic support".
>
> Being non-athletic, indeed anti-athletic, I never came within
> smelling distance of one.
When I was in high school, every week in gym class, the boys[1] would
get a new set of freshly-laundered gym "issues" (turning in the
previous week's) consisting of a shirt, shorts, socks, and jock strap.
So even being not very athletic, in the course of four years I wore
many of them.
[1] I don't think that the girls had the same weekly exchange system
and had to take care of washing their own.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
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Mike Lyle
"Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message
news:ab0tim...@hpl.hp.com...
> "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes:
>
>> WIWAL "jock strap" had not arrived in BrE. The item was known as an
>> "athletic support".
That's the official term, as printed on Mr Litesome's label; but,
judging from OED, "jockstrap" was already familiar to readers of the New
Statesman by 1935
>>
>> Being non-athletic, indeed anti-athletic, I never came within
>> smelling distance of one.
>
> When I was in high school, every week in gym class, the boys[1] would
> get a new set of freshly-laundered gym "issues" (turning in the
> previous week's) consisting of a shirt, shorts, socks, and jock strap.
> So even being not very athletic, in the course of four years I wore
> many of them.
>
> [1] I don't think that the girls had the same weekly exchange system
> and had to take care of washing their own.
I wouldn't have blamed them: the idea of communal jockers, however
thoroughly laundered, fills me with yukness.
--
Mike.
Mark Brader
> WIWAL "jock strap" had not arrived in BrE. The item was known as an
> "athletic support".
"Athletic supporter", with an -er, was the official term when I was
in high school (Ontario, Canada, 1960s-70s), although "jockstrap" was
common usage (and was shortened to "jock", as I recall).
They were one of exactly two things students were required to buy from
the school; the other was the lock for our locker, so that school
officials would have a record of the combination and could open the
lock if they needed to.
--
Mark Brader, | "There is no silver bullet, because not every
Toronto, m...@vex.net | problem is a werewolf." -- Damian Conway
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Maria Conlon
> Peter Duncanson wrote:
>> WIWAL "jock strap" had not arrived in BrE. The item was known as an
>> "athletic support".
>
> "Athletic supporter", with an -er, was the official term when I was
> in high school (Ontario, Canada, 1960s-70s), although "jockstrap" was
> common usage (and was shortened to "jock", as I recall).
>
> They were one of exactly two things students were required to buy from
> the school; the other was the lock for our locker, so that school
> officials would have a record of the combination and could open the
> lock if they needed to.
Why was it necessary for students (just the males, I presume) to buy an
"athletic supporter" from the school rather than from a store? Was it
because the school officials would then know for sure that you bought
one? Or: Did the school get special rates, thus saving the student some
money? (If this has been answered already, I apologize. I haven't read
the whole thread.)
I'm not sure whether the same thing applied in my (Michigan) high school
(1950s-60s) as I didn't need to buy the item (and had no brothers).
However: Our combination locks were not purchased from the school, nor
was the combination given to the school officials (IIRC). If they needed
to open the lock in the student's absence, I presume some kind of
metal-cutting tool was used.
BTW: There were kids who just closed the lock enough for it to look
"locked." They didn't want to fool with the combination between classes.
That took too much time. And I don't recall any locker thefts, but that
doesn't mean there weren't any.
Actually, we had two lockers -- one in the school hallways and one in
the gym dressing rooms. I think the locks in the gym may have been
provided by the school. Most people made sure that locker was locked
while they were in the gym, as it contained one's wallet or purse.
ObAUE: In our area (Southeast Michigan) in those school days, "athletic
supporters" were usually called "jock straps." Guys didn't mention them
in front of girls. (And girls didn't mention bras in front of boys. We
were much less open about things in those days.)
--
Maria Conlon
Skitt
> Mark Brader wrote:
>> Peter Duncanson wrote:
>>> WIWAL "jock strap" had not arrived in BrE. The item was known as an
>>> "athletic support".
>>
>> "Athletic supporter", with an -er, was the official term when I was
>> in high school (Ontario, Canada, 1960s-70s), although "jockstrap" was
>> common usage (and was shortened to "jock", as I recall).
>>
>> They were one of exactly two things students were required to buy
>> from the school; the other was the lock for our locker, so that
>> school officials would have a record of the combination and could
>> open the lock if they needed to.
>
> Why was it necessary for students (just the males, I presume) to buy
> an "athletic supporter" from the school rather than from a store? Was
> it because the school officials would then know for sure that you
> bought one? Or: Did the school get special rates, thus saving the
> student some money? (If this has been answered already, I apologize.
> I haven't read the whole thread.)
>
> I'm not sure whether the same thing applied in my (Michigan) high
> school (1950s-60s) as I didn't need to buy the item (and had no
> brothers). However: Our combination locks were not purchased from the
> school, nor was the combination given to the school officials (IIRC).
> If they needed to open the lock in the student's absence, I presume
> some kind of metal-cutting tool was used.
I know I didn't have to buy the athletic supporter and the combination locks
from the school.
> BTW: There were kids who just closed the lock enough for it to look
> "locked." They didn't want to fool with the combination between
> classes. That took too much time. And I don't recall any locker
> thefts, but that doesn't mean there weren't any.
>
> Actually, we had two lockers -- one in the school hallways and one in
> the gym dressing rooms. I think the locks in the gym may have been
> provided by the school. Most people made sure that locker was locked
> while they were in the gym, as it contained one's wallet or purse.
I had to buy both locks. I still have them, but they haven't been used in
more than fifty years.
> ObAUE: In our area (Southeast Michigan) in those school days,
> "athletic supporters" were usually called "jock straps." Guys didn't
> mention them in front of girls. (And girls didn't mention bras in
> front of boys. We were much less open about things in those days.)
Ditto for San Jose High School (1949 - 1950).
Mark Brader
>> "Athletic supporter", with an -er, was the official term when I was
>> in high school (Ontario, Canada, 1960s-70s), although "jockstrap" was
>> common usage (and was shortened to "jock", as I recall).
>>
>> They were one of exactly two things students were required to buy from
Maria Conlon:
> Why was it necessary for students (just the males, I presume)
(Er, yes.)
> to buy an "athletic supporter" from the school rather than from a
> store?
Now that you raise the point, perhaps it was really just that you
were required to buy one and the school made them available so you
didn't need to go to a store.
> Actually, we had two lockers -- one in the school hallways and one in
> the gym dressing rooms. I think the locks in the gym may have been
> provided by the school. Most people made sure that locker was locked
> while they were in the gym, as it contained one's wallet or purse.
I don't remember what we did with our street clothes during phys.ed.,
only that I never worried about my wallet being stolen. It only had
a couple of dollars in it anyway, most of the time.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "But going repeatedly back and forth in time is
m...@vex.net | cheating. Anybody can do that!" --Paul Kriha
tony cooper
>Mark Brader:
>>> "Athletic supporter", with an -er, was the official term when I was
>>> in high school (Ontario, Canada, 1960s-70s), although "jockstrap" was
>>> common usage (and was shortened to "jock", as I recall).
>>>
>>> They were one of exactly two things students were required to buy from
>>> the school; the other was the lock for our locker...
>
>Maria Conlon:
>> Why was it necessary for students (just the males, I presume)
>
>(Er, yes.)
>
>> to buy an "athletic supporter" from the school rather than from a
>> store?
>
>Now that you raise the point, perhaps it was really just that you
>were required to buy one and the school made them available so you
>didn't need to go to a store.
In those days, buying a jock strap was an embarrassing thing for a
young high school male. Very likely, it was the youth's mother who
accompanied the boy on the shopping trip. Permanent blindness was a
risk from the eye-rolling at the mother's questions about the size and
protection afforded. Being able to buy the item at school with a male
coach or teacher as the clerk was a blessing.
>
>> Actually, we had two lockers -- one in the school hallways and one in
>> the gym dressing rooms. I think the locks in the gym may have been
>> provided by the school. Most people made sure that locker was locked
>> while they were in the gym, as it contained one's wallet or purse.
>
>I don't remember what we did with our street clothes during phys.ed.,
>only that I never worried about my wallet being stolen. It only had
>a couple of dollars in it anyway, most of the time.
We hung our street clothes on hooks along the wall of the locker room
when we changed for PE (gym) class. The lockers were for members of
the sports teams. I never had a lock for my hall locker. No one ever
stole my books or galoshes.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Robert Bannister
> Mark Brader:
>>> "Athletic supporter", with an -er, was the official term when I was
>>> in high school (Ontario, Canada, 1960s-70s), although "jockstrap" was
>>> common usage (and was shortened to "jock", as I recall).
>>>
>>> They were one of exactly two things students were required to buy from
>>> the school; the other was the lock for our locker...
>
> Maria Conlon:
>> Why was it necessary for students (just the males, I presume)
>
> (Er, yes.)
>
>> to buy an "athletic supporter" from the school rather than from a
>> store?
>
> Now that you raise the point, perhaps it was really just that you
> were required to buy one and the school made them available so you
> didn't need to go to a store.
>
>> Actually, we had two lockers -- one in the school hallways and one in
>> the gym dressing rooms. I think the locks in the gym may have been
>> provided by the school. Most people made sure that locker was locked
>> while they were in the gym, as it contained one's wallet or purse.
>
> I don't remember what we did with our street clothes during phys.ed.,
> only that I never worried about my wallet being stolen. It only had
> a couple of dollars in it anyway, most of the time.
I never owned a wallet in high school. The amount of money I had rarely
rose to more than a few coins. University was an introduction to riches.
--
Rob Bannister
Frank ess
I needed one at age fifteen point five, for a Learner's Permit and
then a Driver License. The Permit was a piece of pink paper, as I
recall. The License was a photostat (?), reverse black-to-white copy,
with a thumbprint. I don't remember when the photograph replaced the
print. I had an Arkansas License for a year or two; neither photo nor
print.
The wallet I got, which I called a "billfold", cost fifty cents US, in
Tijuana, Mexico. After a month it began to smell of decomposing animal
skin.
--
Frank ess
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
wrote:
>
>The wallet I got, which I called a "billfold", cost fifty cents US, in
>Tijuana, Mexico. After a month it began to smell of decomposing animal
>skin.
Ah... genuine leather, but it should have stayed longer in the tanning
salon.
Pat Durkin
>
>
> Robert Bannister wrote:
>>
>> I never owned a wallet in high school. The amount of money I had
>> rarely rose to more than a few coins. University was an
>> introduction to riches.
>
>
> The wallet I got, which I called a "billfold", cost fifty cents US,
> in Tijuana, Mexico. After a month it began to smell of decomposing
> animal skin.
Oh, not Moroccan, then.
Goat piss has a characteristic pungency.
Robert Bannister
When I first entered Australia, the customs man spent ages over two
items of apparel that I had bought in Afghanistan. Eventually, he
confiscated my rather nice, knee-high boots, but let me keep the rather
smelly coat. The latter, according to him had been tanned in camel's
urine was, therefore, all right.
--
Rob Bannister
Evan Kirshenbaum
I had two locks: one for my hall locker and one for my gym locker. In
the locker room, everybody had one tiny locker (in banks three or four
high) that was big enough to store gym clothes (including shoes).
Facing that row of lockers was a row of full-sized lockers. When you
had gym class, you put your street clothes and books in a full-sized
locker and moved your lock to it. Then when you got back, your gym
clothes went back into your tiny locker and the lock went back there.
It was a relatively efficient system, as long as each period's
students were reasonably evenly distributed around the locker room.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Your claim might have more
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |credibility if you hadn't mispelled
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |"inteligent"
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Don Aitken
When at school, I never had a locker, or indeed a lock. I think that
was normal in British schools at the time (sixties). Books and
oddments lived in a non-lockable desk or were carried around, as was
gym kit. During gym and suchlike things, street clothes were hung on
hooks (or just lay around, according to taste) in the changing rooms.
No-one was afraid of anything being stolen, and as far as I know
nothing ever was. It was just taken for granted that schoolkids didn't
have anything worth stealing, even by other schoolkids. I don't think
I had a wallet; money lived in your pocket, and nobody ever had more
than small change.
Different times, indeed. It may be relevant that this was in a small
town, about as far from any big city as you can get in England.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
Robert Bannister
> When at school, I never had a locker, or indeed a lock. I think that
> was normal in British schools at the time (sixties). Books and
> oddments lived in a non-lockable desk or were carried around, as was
> gym kit. During gym and suchlike things, street clothes were hung on
> hooks (or just lay around, according to taste) in the changing rooms.
> No-one was afraid of anything being stolen, and as far as I know
> nothing ever was. It was just taken for granted that schoolkids didn't
> have anything worth stealing, even by other schoolkids. I don't think
> I had a wallet; money lived in your pocket, and nobody ever had more
> than small change.
>
> Different times, indeed. It may be relevant that this was in a small
> town, about as far from any big city as you can get in England.
>
I'm sure the small town effect had a bearing on it. My very minor
English public school certainly gave us lockers that had their own
locks, but we mainly kept our books and outdoor clothes there.
For gym and sport, we also just left our stuff hanging on pegs.
Occasionally, there were instances of theft, but we were constantly told
not to leave valuables there, so people really only had themselves to
blame. Anyway, I only remember small amounts of cash being stolen;
things like watches and fountain pens (both quite valuable items back
then) never seemed to get touched - maybe they were too recognisable.
--
Rob Bannister
John Dean
I had exactly the same experience in the same period in a large school in a
large city (Manchester). The 'lockers' we had in our classrooms (additional
to the swing-top desk which was the main place to keep books and stuff)
didn't even have doors.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Robin Bignall
It was the same a decade before that in the fifties. Nottingham was
not as big a city as Manchester, but it was still a city rather than a
small town. We carried nothing around with us: exercise books and any
necessary textbooks were handed out at the start of a lesson and
collected at the end. Nothing was left in desks and there were no
lockers. There was, of course, no homework, for this was a school
devoted to the future truck drivers and hole diggers of the world, or
apprentices if you were lucky. (Brits familiar with the eleven plus
and the secondary modern system will know what I mean.)
The school was roughly at the intersection point of three large
council house estates and none of its pupils was more than half an
hour's walk away. There were no shops of any kind within about twenty
minutes' walk in any direction (the estate was designed that way
deliberately) so there was little need for money, even for phones,
because few people on such estates had private phones in those days.
--
Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England