Why is Worcester MA Mispronounced as "Wooster"
Larry R Harrison Jr
pronounce this city's name?
It ought to be pronounced something like "wor-kest-tur". Instead it's
MIS-pronounced as "wooster."
Why?
Larry
Michael Nitabach
news:8a4fe96a.04080...@posting.google.com:
Why not?
--
Mike Nitabach
John Dawkins
Dylan Nicholson
news:20040801205350...@mb-m15.aol.com...
> Dawkins:
>
> > (some-one else):
> >>
> >> It ought to be pronounced something like "wor-kest-tur". Instead it's
> >> MIS-pronounced as "wooster."
> >>
> >> Why?
> >
> >To confuse DE781.
>
So it worked then.
Robert Bannister
What silly person would thing that? You could reasonably expect it to be
pronounced "woo-sses-tuh", but if you said it quickly, the middle 'e'
would soon disappear, so you don't even need to compare it with the
English city of the same name and pronunciation.
--
Rob Bannister
Joachim Herzog
news:cek64t$3oh$1...@enyo.uwa.edu.au...
> What silly person would thing that?
If you thing that, you've got another thing coming.
--
Joachim
Robert Bannister
Yuck! I can't believe I wrote that. I'd better swallow some Worcester sauce.
--
Rob Bannister
Joachim Herzog
Pronounced wor-kes-tur saw-key presumably.
--
Joachim
Skitt
> Joachim Herzog wrote:
>>> What silly person would thing that?
>>
>> If you thing that, you've got another thing coming.
>>
> Yuck! I can't believe I wrote that. I'd better swallow some Worcester
> sauce.
I thought you were doing an AUE "in" joke.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
Dylan Nicholson
news:2n5n1oF...@uni-berlin.de...
> Robert Bannister wrote:
> > Joachim Herzog wrote:
> >> "Robert Bannister" wrote:
>
> >>> What silly person would thing that?
> >>
> >> If you thing that, you've got another thing coming.
> >>
> > Yuck! I can't believe I wrote that. I'd better swallow some Worcester
> > sauce.
>
> I thought you were doing an AUE "in" joke.
> --
difference between
Worcester sauce and Worcestershire sauce?
Skitt
> "Skitt" wrote:
>> Robert Bannister wrote:
>>> Joachim Herzog wrote:
>>>> "Robert Bannister" wrote:
>>>>> What silly person would thing that?
>>>>
>>>> If you thing that, you've got another thing coming.
>>>>
>>> Yuck! I can't believe I wrote that. I'd better swallow some
>>> Worcester sauce.
>>
>> I thought you were doing an AUE "in" joke.
>
> the difference between
> Worcester sauce and Worcestershire sauce?
I don't use it. Don't like it.
Dylan Nicholson
> Dylan Nicholson wrote:
> > "Skitt" wrote:
> >> Robert Bannister wrote:
> >>> Joachim Herzog wrote:
> >>>> "Robert Bannister" wrote:
>
> >>>>> What silly person would thing that?
> >>>>
> >>>> If you thing that, you've got another thing coming.
> >>>>
> >>> Yuck! I can't believe I wrote that. I'd better swallow some
> >>> Worcester sauce.
> >>
> >> I thought you were doing an AUE "in" joke.
> >
> > He still is. Obviously you're just not "in" enough - don't you know
> > the difference between
> > Worcester sauce and Worcestershire sauce?
>
> I don't use it. Don't like it.
I'd take it over any other condiment any day. Especially good on sausage
rolls (=AmE...um...anybody?).
And extremely useful in cooking.
Oddly, even though I've always seen it written as "Worcestershire sauce", I
pretty much always pronounce it "Worcester", presumably to avoid it spraying
it rather than saying it.
Christopher Johnson
> "Skitt" <ski...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:2n5nr1F...@uni-berlin.de...
> > Dylan Nicholson wrote:
> > > "Skitt" wrote:
> > >> Robert Bannister wrote:
> > >>> Joachim Herzog wrote:
> > >>>> "Robert Bannister" wrote:
> >
> > >>>>> What silly person would thing that?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> If you thing that, you've got another thing coming.
> > >>>>
> > >>> Yuck! I can't believe I wrote that. I'd better swallow some
> > >>> Worcester sauce.
> > >>
> > >> I thought you were doing an AUE "in" joke.
> > >
> > > He still is. Obviously you're just not "in" enough - don't you know
> > > the difference between
> > > Worcester sauce and Worcestershire sauce?
> >
> > I don't use it. Don't like it.
>
> I'd take it over any other condiment any day. Especially good on sausage
> rolls (=AmE...um...anybody?).
No such thing in AmE, I'm afraid. They (Americans) don't know
what they're missing, do they? Oh well, you can't miss what
you've never known, I suppose! :-)
> And extremely useful in cooking.
> Oddly, even though I've always seen it written as "Worcestershire sauce", I
> pretty much always pronounce it "Worcester", presumably to avoid it spraying
> it rather than saying it.
We always call it "'Lea & Perrins'" in *our* house.
--
Christopher ('CJ')
(Change 3032 to 7777 for e-mail)
Christopher Green
What makes you think it ought to be pronounced "wor-kest-tur", and
what makes you think "wooster" is a mispronunciation?
--
The tough coughs as he ploughs the dough,
Chris Green
Charles Riggs
Jr) wrote:
>What silly person long ago came up with this backwards way to
>pronounce this city's name?
A non-question.
>It ought to be pronounced something like "wor-kest-tur". Instead it's
>MIS-pronounced as "wooster."
If such considerations are of any importance, you should know it isn't
possible for a city's people to 'mispronounce' the name of their city,
--
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
<wizo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"Skitt" <ski...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:2n5nr1F...@uni-berlin.de...
>> Dylan Nicholson wrote:
>> > "Skitt" wrote:
>> >> Robert Bannister wrote:
>> >>> Joachim Herzog wrote:
>> >>>> "Robert Bannister" wrote:
>>
>> >>>>> What silly person would thing that?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> If you thing that, you've got another thing coming.
>> >>>>
>> >>> Yuck! I can't believe I wrote that. I'd better swallow some
>> >>> Worcester sauce.
>> >>
>> >> I thought you were doing an AUE "in" joke.
>> >
>> > He still is. Obviously you're just not "in" enough - don't you know
>> > the difference between
>> > Worcester sauce and Worcestershire sauce?
>>
>> I don't use it. Don't like it.
>
>I'd take it over any other condiment any day. Especially good on sausage
>rolls (=AmE...um...anybody?).
>And extremely useful in cooking.
Great stuff, but if I were limited to one sauce, I'd pick soy: again,
excellent both when cooking and as a condiment.
--
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
<chris_jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Dylan Nicholson wrote:
>
>> "Skitt" <ski...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:2n5nr1F...@uni-berlin.de...
>> > Dylan Nicholson wrote:
>> > > "Skitt" wrote:
>> > >> Robert Bannister wrote:
>> > >>> Joachim Herzog wrote:
>> > >>>> "Robert Bannister" wrote:
>> >
>> > >>>>> What silly person would thing that?
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> If you thing that, you've got another thing coming.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>> Yuck! I can't believe I wrote that. I'd better swallow some
>> > >>> Worcester sauce.
>> > >>
>> > >> I thought you were doing an AUE "in" joke.
>> > >
>> > > He still is. Obviously you're just not "in" enough - don't you know
>> > > the difference between
>> > > Worcester sauce and Worcestershire sauce?
>> >
>> > I don't use it. Don't like it.
>>
>> I'd take it over any other condiment any day. Especially good on sausage
>> rolls (=AmE...um...anybody?).
>
>No such thing in AmE, I'm afraid.
He was referring to sausage buns, not that all Americans call them
that.
>They (Americans) don't know
>what they're missing, do they? Oh well, you can't miss what
>you've never known, I suppose! :-)
You don't know what you're missing either, unless you've been at least
as far east as Germany. Your snide remark about Americans fell
especially short this time.
--
Charles Riggs
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>What silly person long ago came up with this backwards way to
Perhaps because of the similarity of the name to Worcester in England which is
properly pronounced "Wooster" just as Gloucester is pronounced "Gloster".
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Matti Lamprhey
>
> If such considerations are of any importance, you should know it isn't
> possible for a city's people to 'mispronounce' the name of their city,
Known as the Shrewsbury Rule.
Matti
André Hartmann
which is
> properly pronounced "Wooster" just as Gloucester is pronounced "Gloster".
... and Leicester (pr. "lester") ! As in Leicester Square, London :)
david56
as modified by the Coventry Corollary.
--
David
=====
Adrian Bailey
news:8a4fe96a.04080...@posting.google.com...
> What silly person long ago came up with this backwards way to
> pronounce this city's name?
>
> It ought to be pronounced something like "wor-kest-tur".
c before e is soft, mate.
Adrian
Alan Crozier
news:MPG.1b781cdc2...@news.individual.net...
Is there a Cirencester Concession? Have the people of that town now switched
to a spelling-pronunciation?
--
Alan Crozier
Lund
Sweden
Stewart Gordon
>>Perhaps because of the similarity of the name to Worcester in England
>
> which is
>
>>properly pronounced "Wooster" just as Gloucester is pronounced "Gloster".
>
>
> ... and Leicester (pr. "lester") ! As in Leicester Square, London :)
And Bicester. Which seems to be the only one in which the vowel
preceding "cester" retains its usual English sound.
There ought to be others, but I can't think of them OTTOMH. But for
some strange reason, Cirencester is an exception, traditionally dropping
the "ren" rather than the "ce", but now generally spelling-pronounced.
Stewart.
--
My e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox. Please keep replies on
the 'group where everyone may benefit.
André Hartmann
> some strange reason, Cirencester is an exception, traditionally dropping
> the "ren" rather than the "ce", but now generally spelling-pronounced.
Do I get that right... it WAS pronounced ci-ce-ster but now it is
pronounced ci-ren-ce-ster ? Stress is on what syllable, respectively ? Sorry
if the question sounds dumb but I am german and it's not obvious to me...
Stewart Gordon
>> There ought to be others, but I can't think of them OTTOMH. But for
>> some strange reason, Cirencester is an exception, traditionally dropping
>> the "ren" rather than the "ce", but now generally spelling-pronounced.
>
> Do I get that right... it WAS pronounced ci-ce-ster but now it is
> pronounced ci-ren-ce-ster ?
"Traditionally, Cirencester was pronounced sis-etter or sis-sester, but
by the 1980s this pronunciation had been largely replaced by Syren-sester."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cirencester
> Stress is on what syllable, respectively ?
<snip>
Traditional: don't know.
Common: first, secondary on third.
Alan Crozier
news:410e232a$1...@olaf.komtel.net...
Stress always on the first syllable. Pronunciation has varied: Sissiter,
Sissister, Sizzister. Now Sirensester, with Siren as in siren. Never
Kirenkester.
Christopher Johnson
Rubbish, Charles. A sausage roll is made from *pastry*
and so could not be (correctly) referred to as a 'bun',
which, by definition, is made from bread. You appear
not to know what a 'sausage roll' is, Charles.
> >They (Americans) don't know
> >what they're missing, do they? Oh well, you can't miss what
> >you've never known, I suppose! :-)
>
> You don't know what you're missing either, unless you've been at least
> as far east as Germany.
I've been to many European countries, including Poland.
> Your snide remark about Americans fell
> especially short this time.
I'm sorry you found my remark to be snide, Charles. It
certainly was not intended to be so. Nevertheless, I
have re-read what I wrote but I found there to be nothing
snide about it whatsoever. You are simply over-sensitive
sometimes, and I stand by every single word I wrote.
Joe Fineman
There was once a young lady of Worcester
Who usest to crow like a roosester.
She usest to climb
Two trees at a time,
But her sisester usest to boosest her.
Conceivably you will get your wish if you live long enough. Americans
have often taken up spelling pronunciations of slurred British place
names (Waltham, MA, & Birmingham, AL are conspicuous examples), and
even the Brits are doing it at home, as part of what Gowers, in MEU 2,
calls "the speak-as-you-spell movement".
--
--- Joe Fineman j...@TheWorld.com
||: I know there are things I know nothing about, but I can't :||
||: actually think of any. :||
Christopher Johnson
Django Cat
wrote:
> André Hartmann wrote:
>
>>> Perhaps because of the similarity of the name to Worcester in England
>>
>> which is
>>
>>> properly pronounced "Wooster" just as Gloucester is pronounced
>>> "Gloster".
>>
>>
>> ... and Leicester (pr. "lester") ! As in Leicester Square, London :)
>
> And Bicester. Which seems to be the only one in which the vowel
> preceding "cester" retains its usual English sound.
>
> There ought to be others, but I can't think of them OTTOMH.
Towcester, pronounced 'Toaster'...
DC
R H Draney
>
>He still is. Obviously you're just not "in" enough - don't you know the
>difference between
>Worcester sauce and Worcestershire sauce?
One of them apparently has "shire" in it, whatever that is....r
Mike Lyle
It's just down the road from me, and I think they have. I've sometimes
doubted the genuineness of the "Sister" form, but never pursued it.
Congresbury. I'm very surprised the OP didn't know that place-names
were very often irregular, or why; actually, without wishing to cast
vulgar nasturtiums, I suspect he did know, unless he's a rather cocky
late EFL learner.
Mike.
Alan Crozier
news:3fa4d950.04080...@posting.google.com...
> "Alan Crozier" <alan.c...@telia.com> wrote in message
news:<aCoPc.99856$dP1.3...@newsc.telia.net>...
> > "david56" <bass.c...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.1b781cdc2...@news.individual.net...
> > > Matti Lamprhey typed thus:
> > >
> > > > "Charles Riggs" <chr...@eircom.net> wrote...
> > > > >
> > > > > If such considerations are of any importance, you should know it
isn't
> > > > > possible for a city's people to 'mispronounce' the name of their
city,
> > > >
> > > > Known as the Shrewsbury Rule.
> > >
> > > as modified by the Coventry Corollary.
> >
> > Is there a Cirencester Concession? Have the people of that town now
switched
> > to a spelling-pronunciation?
>
> It's just down the road from me, and I think they have. I've sometimes
> doubted the genuineness of the "Sister" form, but never pursued it.
The pronunciations I quoted come from Daniel Jones & A.C. Gimson, English
Pronouncing Dictionary. I think they can be trusted.
>
> I'm very surprised the OP didn't know that place-names
> were very often irregular, or why; actually, without wishing to cast
> vulgar nasturtiums, I suspect he did know, unless he's a rather cocky
> late EFL learner.
Anyway, the frequently asked question "Why is Worcester pronounced Wooster?"
(or whatever) is the wrong way around. It should be "Why is the sound
Wooster represented in writing by Worcester (and in surnames as Wooster)?"
The sounds come first. Spelling can take a long time to catch up.
Larry R Harrison Jr
> On 1 Aug 2004 15:51:45 -0700, larry...@yahoo.com (Larry R Harrison Jr)
> wrote:
>
> >What silly person long ago came up with this backwards way to
> >pronounce this city's name?
> >
> >It ought to be pronounced something like "wor-kest-tur". Instead it's
> >MIS-pronounced as "wooster."
>
> Perhaps because of the similarity of the name to Worcester in England which is
> properly pronounced "Wooster" just as Gloucester is pronounced "Gloster".
I would submit then, that Gloucester should be pronounced
"glue-kester." If they want to pronounce it "Gloster," then spell it
"Gloster." Likewise if the officials of Worcester want it pronounced
"Wooster," they should spell it "Wooster."
If a letter is silent, it has no business being there.
It's not the only example of silly English, I just felt compelled
today I guess because the History Channel was doing a bit on tornadoes
and the one that hit Wooster years ago, and it reminded me of this
little bit which I had first heard of a long time ago but had
forgotten about. Now I'd like to forget about it again.
But other silly examples would be:
* Honest. The H should be pronounced or it should be spelled "onest."
Yes it looks silly, but oh well--one of the two should be done.
* Or, like, the name Demi Moore. I agreed with George in that Seinfeld
episode, it should be pronounced "Demi" not "De-meeee" (that is, don't
stress the "eeeee" at the end, just make it a quick "Demi"). Like he
said, you never hear "Sem-eeee" tractor trailer.
Just my 2c worth. That's all.
Larry R Harrison Jr
Thanks for the rule and the enlightment. I had (h)onestly never heard
it.
(I put the h in parenthesis to stress my belief that the h should
either be pronounced or left out of the spelling.)
But I do think that's silly. Not that anyone cares of course. But
really--if "ce" is silent, why have it in there? It just wastes space
and is confusing for the unenlightened like myself. It just doesn't
make any sense.
LRH
david56
> If a letter is silent, it has no business being there.
pronounced "busy-ness" in your dialect, we must surmise.
--
David
=====
david56
> But I do think that's silly. Not that anyone cares of course. But
> really--if "ce" is silent, why have it in there? It just wastes space
> and is confusing for the unenlightened like myself. It just doesn't
> make any sense.
so how do you pronounced "light"?
--
David
=====
Christopher Johnson
> haye...@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) wrote in message news:<410dc042....@news.saix.net>...
> > On 1 Aug 2004 15:51:45 -0700, larry...@yahoo.com (Larry R Harrison Jr)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >What silly person long ago came up with this backwards way to
> > >pronounce this city's name?
> > >
> > >It ought to be pronounced something like "wor-kest-tur". Instead it's
> > >MIS-pronounced as "wooster."
> >
> > Perhaps because of the similarity of the name to Worcester in England which is
> > properly pronounced "Wooster" just as Gloucester is pronounced "Gloster".
>
> I would submit then, that Gloucester should be pronounced
> "glue-kester." If they want to pronounce it "Gloster," then spell it
> "Gloster." Likewise if the officials of Worcester want it pronounced
> "Wooster," they should spell it "Wooster."
>
> If a letter is silent, it has no business being there.
'Business' is generally pronounced 'bIznIs', so shouldn't you
have spelt it 'biznis' or something?
> It's not the only example of silly English, I just felt compelled
> today I guess because the History Channel was doing a bit on tornadoes
> and the one that hit Wooster years ago, and it reminded me of this
> little bit which I had first heard of a long time ago but had
> forgotten about. Now I'd like to forget about it again.
>
> But other silly examples would be:
>
> * Honest. The H should be pronounced or it should be spelled "onest."
> Yes it looks silly, but oh well--one of the two should be done.
>
> * Or, like, the name Demi Moore. I agreed with George in that Seinfeld
> episode, it should be pronounced "Demi" not "De-meeee" (that is, don't
> stress the "eeeee" at the end, just make it a quick "Demi"). Like he
> said, you never hear "Sem-eeee" tractor trailer.
Yes you do. Outside of America, the word 'semi' is generally
pronounced "sem-eeee".
> Just my 2c worth. That's all.
Barely worth 1¢, I'd say, as with any 'spell as you pronounce' rants,
especially this one. Maybe you think 'George in Seinfeld' should be
spelt: 'Jorj in Seinfelt'? Sheesh!
Christopher Johnson
Now, there's a thort!
Christopher Johnson
Huh?
Michael Nitabach
news:2n5o1gF...@uni-berlin.de:
> "Skitt" <ski...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:2n5nr1F...@uni-berlin.de...
>> Dylan Nicholson wrote:
>> > "Skitt" wrote:
>> >> Robert Bannister wrote:
>> >>> Joachim Herzog wrote:
>> >>>> "Robert Bannister" wrote:
>>
>> >>>>> What silly person would thing that?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> If you thing that, you've got another thing coming.
>> >>>>
>> >>> Yuck! I can't believe I wrote that. I'd better swallow some
>> >>> Worcester sauce.
>> >>
>> >> I thought you were doing an AUE "in" joke.
>> >
>> > He still is. Obviously you're just not "in" enough - don't you
>> > know the difference between
>> > Worcester sauce and Worcestershire sauce?
>>
>> I don't use it. Don't like it.
>
> I'd take it over any other condiment any day. Especially good on
> sausage rolls (=AmE...um...anybody?).
What do you mean by sausage roll?
A sausage roll in the northeast United States is usually a piece of
Italian sausage and some mozzarella cheese rolled in pizza dough and
baked in a pizza oven. Sauteed onions and sweet peppers can be
included as well. It would never occur to me to put Worcestershire
sauce on this kind of sausage roll.
--
Mike Nitabach
Michael Nitabach
news:8a4fe96a.04080...@posting.google.com:
> haye...@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) wrote in message
> news:<410dc042....@news.saix.net>...
>> On 1 Aug 2004 15:51:45 -0700, larry...@yahoo.com (Larry R
>> Harrison Jr) wrote:
>>
>> >What silly person long ago came up with this backwards way to
>> >pronounce this city's name?
>> >
>> >It ought to be pronounced something like "wor-kest-tur". Instead
>> >it's MIS-pronounced as "wooster."
>>
>> Perhaps because of the similarity of the name to Worcester in
>> England which is properly pronounced "Wooster" just as Gloucester
>> is pronounced "Gloster".
>
> I would submit then, that Gloucester should be pronounced
> "glue-kester." If they want to pronounce it "Gloster," then spell
> it "Gloster." Likewise if the officials of Worcester want it
> pronounced "Wooster," they should spell it "Wooster."
Do you see that your argument has as much logical weight as "If they
want to pronounce it 'Gloster', then spell it 'xgvvhc'"?
And where do you get the idea that the "officials" of Worcester have
the power (or desire, for that matter) to determine how the name of
the town is pronounced?
--
Mike Nitabach
Cece
> Surely you mean "Woosester":
>
> There was once a young lady of Worcester
> Who usest to crow like a roosester.
> She usest to climb
> Two trees at a time,
> But her sisester usest to boosest her.
>
> Conceivably you will get your wish if you live long enough. Americans
> have often taken up spelling pronunciations of slurred British place
> names (Waltham, MA, & Birmingham, AL are conspicuous examples), and
> even the Brits are doing it at home, as part of what Gowers, in MEU 2,
> calls "the speak-as-you-spell movement".
Ten or so years ago, in conversation with a Brit from near Cambridge,
I mentioned Pontefract -- and she had no idea where I was talking
about. She'd never heard it pronounced anyway other than /'pan ti
fr@kt/, while I had remembered what I'd read about the name years
before and said /'pVm frEt/.
Is Newcastle pronounced correctly at home? :-)
Cece
Matti Lamprhey
> "Dylan Nicholson" <wizo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> (re: Worcestershire sauce)
> >
> > I'd take it over any other condiment any day. Especially good on
> > sausage rolls (=AmE...um...anybody?).
>
> What do you mean by sausage roll?
In Britain, a sausage roll is unambiguously a small cylinder of sausage
meat wrapped in a puff-pastry jacket, usually consumed as a canapé.
See some here:
http://www.sausagelinks.co.uk/sausage_rolls_recipes.asp
Matti
Steve Hayes
as qualified by the Cirencester anomaly.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Alan Jones
"Django Cat" <nos...@please.com> wrote in message
news:opsb3wuj...@news.freenetname.co.uk...
Leominster (lemster)
Leamington (lemmington)
Ratlinghope (ratchup)
Frome (froom)
and many, many more.
A local oddity is Calne: older natives use the 'a' of 'bat' and pronounce
the 'l', younger natives and incomers say "kahn", presumably on the model of
"calm" and "palm". Another town nearby is Chippenham (chip-n'm in casual
speech) which has a newly-developed area given the name of Cepen Park. The
"Cepen" is the Anglo-Saxon name for Chippenham (there was a famous battle
there between Alfred and the Danish army under Guthrum), and should
therefore properly be pronounced with 'tch', but everyone says "see-p'n" -
eliminating the connection with the town of which Cepen Park is a
mini-suburb.
Alan Jones
david56
> "Michael Nitabach" <mnit...@acedsl.com> wrote...
> > "Dylan Nicholson" <wizo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > (re: Worcestershire sauce)
> > >
> > > I'd take it over any other condiment any day. Especially good on
> > > sausage rolls (=AmE...um...anybody?).
> >
> > What do you mean by sausage roll?
>
> In Britain, a sausage roll is unambiguously a small cylinder of sausage
> meat wrapped in a puff-pastry jacket, usually consumed as a canapé.
>
> See some here:
> http://www.sausagelinks.co.uk/sausage_rolls_recipes.asp
Gosh, what dainty sweetmeats. A breakfast sausage roll at my work's
canteen is about 9" long and oozes fat. I have seen people eat two
to get them started in the morning.
--
David
=====
david56
> Leominster (lemster)
> Leamington (lemmington)
That one is not so odd as the town is named for the River Leam,
pronounced Lemm.
--
David
=====
Michael Nitabach
news:MPG.1b78a93a2...@news.individual.net:
The ones pictured are most like what are called "pigs in a blanket"
in the US.
--
Mike Nitabach
Areff
> Perhaps because of the similarity of the name to Worcester in England which is
> properly pronounced "Wooster" just as Gloucester is pronounced "Gloster".
I thought that UK folks told us a few years ago that "Worcester" and
"Wooster" are not homophones. (Unless maybe there are some Englandish
dialects with look/Luke merger. It *sounds* to me like many Englandish
people pronounce "book" as [buk] rather than [bUk].)
I use the "cot" vowel in "Gloucester", interestingly enough, since I use
the "caught" vowel in "gloss". Up in Gloucester, Mass. they say
[glA.@st@] I guess.
--
Jacqui
> A local oddity is Calne: older natives use the 'a' of 'bat' and
> pronounce the 'l', younger natives and incomers say "kahn",
> presumably on the model of "calm" and "palm".
Hmmm, I use the a of 'calm' but pronounce the l. Taught by a local.
> Another town nearby
> is Chippenham (chip-n'm in casual speech) which has a
> newly-developed area given the name of Cepen Park. The "Cepen" is
> the Anglo-Saxon name for Chippenham (there was a famous battle
> there between Alfred and the Danish army under Guthrum), and
> should therefore properly be pronounced with 'tch', but everyone
> says "see-p'n" - eliminating the connection with the town of which
> Cepen Park is a mini-suburb.
Oh dear. Where is Cepen Park? /me Googles. Ah, right. My end of town
(lived within 10 minutes of CTC for 2 years).
And what about the pronunciation of Hardenhuish, eh?
Jac
John Dawkins
"Dylan Nicholson" <wizo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Skitt" <ski...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:2n5nr1F...@uni-berlin.de...
> > Dylan Nicholson wrote:
> > > "Skitt" wrote:
> > >> Robert Bannister wrote:
> > >>> Joachim Herzog wrote:
> > >>>> "Robert Bannister" wrote:
> >
> > >>>>> What silly person would thing that?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> If you thing that, you've got another thing coming.
> > >>>>
> > >>> Yuck! I can't believe I wrote that. I'd better swallow some
> > >>> Worcester sauce.
> > >>
> > >> I thought you were doing an AUE "in" joke.
> > >
> > > He still is. Obviously you're just not "in" enough - don't you know
> > > the difference between
> > > Worcester sauce and Worcestershire sauce?
> >
> > I don't use it. Don't like it.
>
> I'd take it over any other condiment any day. Especially good on sausage
> rolls (=AmE...um...anybody?).
Sausage McMuffin.
--
J.
Mike Lyle
> "Adrian Bailey" <da...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<ZgoPc.49599$28.3...@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk>...
> >
> > Adrian
>
> Thanks for the rule and the enlightment. I had (h)onestly never heard
> it.
You mean, of course, that in your area everybody meets in the kenter
of the kity in Dekember to go danking. Nike idea. Is Larry short for
Laurenke?
Mike.
Christopher Johnson
That's not what he meant by 'sausage roll'. You and Charles
obviously don't have a clue.
Christopher Johnson
That's nothing like a British 'sausage roll'.
Matti Lamprhey
> Steve Hayes wrote:
> > Perhaps because of the similarity of the name to Worcester in
> > England which is properly pronounced "Wooster" just as Gloucester
> > is pronounced "Gloster".
>
> I thought that UK folks told us a few years ago that "Worcester" and
> "Wooster" are not homophones. (Unless maybe there are some
> Englandish dialects with look/Luke merger. It *sounds* to me like
> many Englandish people pronounce "book" as [buk] rather than [bUk].)
"Worcester" always gets the shorter vowel in RP "look" -- but note that
many dialects of BrEnglish give "look" the longer vowel of "Luke" as you
suggest. "Wooster", as in Bertram, is usually pronounced like
"Worcester" but many people give him the longer vowel. If anyone knows
how Wodehouse himself conceived it, I'd be fascinated.
Matti
Evan Kirshenbaum
> He still is. Obviously you're just not "in" enough - don't you know
> the difference between Worcester sauce and Worcestershire sauce?
Is Worcester sauce the stuff Elmer Fudd puts in his pho?
http://www.huyfong.com/frames/fr_sriracha.htm
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |"Algebra? But that's far too
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |difficult for seven-year-olds!"
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |
|"Yes, but I didn't tell them that
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |and so far they haven't found out,"
(650)857-7572 |said Susan.
Larry R Harrison Jr
Good one. I admit, you got me there. Surely I don't go around calling
it "li-hh-t?" Yes it's as if the "gh" wasn't there.
You got me on that one.
Dylan Nicholson
>
> Good one. I admit, you got me there. Surely I don't go around calling
> it "li-hh-t?" Yes it's as if the "gh" wasn't there.
>
> You got me on that one.
Not really, seeing as 'lit' is quite a different word.
"igh" is a common enough way of transcribing the sound of 'eye' (which is
actually a very uncommon way of writing it).
Areff
> "Worcester" always gets the shorter vowel in RP "look" -- but note that
> many dialects of BrEnglish give "look" the longer vowel of "Luke" as you
> suggest.
So is this a bona fide vowel merger, comparable to "cot is caught" of
Cunningham-Richoux-Dinkin fame? LIL?
--
Jacqui
> Areff wrote...
>> I thought that UK folks told us a few years ago that "Worcester"
>> and "Wooster" are not homophones. (Unless maybe there are some
>> Englandish dialects with look/Luke merger. It *sounds* to me
>> like many Englandish people pronounce "book" as [buk] rather than
>> [bUk].)
>
> "Worcester" always gets the shorter vowel in RP "look"
I just asked (Lancastrian) DH to tell me the name of the sauce that
Lea and Perrins make, and the chappy who has the manservant Jeeves,
and the results were "wuhstershuh" and "wooster", in that order.
Worcester apparently has exactly the same vowel as 'worse' for him,
and that goes for the place as well as the sauce. Curious.
For myself, there is a difference in embouchure between "Worcester"
and "[Bertie] Wooster". I can't put it any more precisely than that,
or hear enough of a difference to explain, DH tells me he can hear a
very slight difference too (and normally he doesn't notice this
stuff), but that's all we can come up with tonight.
Jac
david56
> "Dylan Nicholson" <wizo...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> > He still is. Obviously you're just not "in" enough - don't you know
> > the difference between Worcester sauce and Worcestershire sauce?
>
> Is Worcester sauce the stuff Elmer Fudd puts in his pho?
>
> http://www.huyfong.com/frames/fr_sriracha.htm
OK, I grew up a few miles from the Sauce Factory with many school
friends living within the Smell Event Horizon. There is no
"Worcester Sauce". If you look at a bottle of Lea & Perrins, you
will see that it is called "Worcestershire Sauce". Anything else is
like Tesco Cola - a pale imitation.
However, in the UK, it is always spoken as "Worcester Sauce", except
possibly on commercials for the stuff.
--
David
=====
John Dean
> news:<ZgoPc.49599$28.3...@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk>...
>>> What silly person long ago came up with this backwards way to
>>> pronounce this city's name?
>>>
>>> It ought to be pronounced something like "wor-kest-tur".
>>
>>
>> Adrian
>
> Thanks for the rule and the enlightment. I had (h)onestly never heard
> it.
>
> either be pronounced or left out of the spelling.)
>
> But I do think that's silly. Not that anyone cares of course. But
> really--if "ce" is silent, why have it in there? It just wastes space
> and is confusing for the unenlightened like myself. It just doesn't
> make any sense.
>
You ever wonder what the 'gh' is doing in 'unenlightened'? Or the 'l' in
'should'? I mean, if you're going to query 'unnecessary' letters,
shouldn't you query them *all*?
--
John Dean
Oxford
Robert Lieblich
>
> Dylan Nicholson filted:
> >
> >He still is. Obviously you're just not "in" enough - don't you know the
> >difference between
> >Worcester sauce and Worcestershire sauce?
>
--
Liebs
Oy! Adrian
Dylan Nicholson
>
> However, in the UK, it is always spoken as "Worcester Sauce", except
> possibly on commercials for the stuff.
>
you'd know why.
She sells sea shells and all that.
Robert Bannister
> "Skitt" <ski...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:2n5n1oF...@uni-berlin.de...
>
>>Robert Bannister wrote:
>>
>>>Joachim Herzog wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Robert Bannister" wrote:
>>
>>>>>What silly person would thing that?
>>>>
>>>>If you thing that, you've got another thing coming.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Yuck! I can't believe I wrote that. I'd better swallow some Worcester
>>>sauce.
>>
>>I thought you were doing an AUE "in" joke.
>>--
>
> He still is. Obviously you're just not "in" enough - don't you know the
> difference between
> Worcester sauce and Worcestershire sauce?
Round these parts, very few people bother to say "Worcestershire" when
"Worcester" will do. Some even call it "hot sauce" which is a bit
misleading considering how man chilli sauces are on the market.
--
Rob Bannister
Western Australia
Dylan Nicholson
news:cemo5n$5kl$1...@enyo.uwa.edu.au...
>
> Round these parts, very few people bother to say "Worcestershire" when
> "Worcester" will do. Some even call it "hot sauce" which is a bit
> misleading considering how man chilli sauces are on the market.
I'm pretty sure that should be hyphenated. Can't go past a good man-chilli
sauce.
Enough to convert anyone to cannibalism.
Mark Raymond
The little bits of frivolity depicted in the link are well known to me
... but only as the "party" variety, and a kid's birthday party at
that! Now a REAL sausage roll, whilst of the same recipe and
cross-section, is a good six inches long!
Mark@work, and thinking of popping down to the canteen to get a (one
is more than enough!) sausage roll for lunch.
Robert Bannister
> haye...@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) wrote in message news:<410dc042....@news.saix.net>...
>
>>On 1 Aug 2004 15:51:45 -0700, larry...@yahoo.com (Larry R Harrison Jr)
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>What silly person long ago came up with this backwards way to
>>>pronounce this city's name?
>>>
>>>It ought to be pronounced something like "wor-kest-tur". Instead it's
>>>MIS-pronounced as "wooster."
>>
>>Perhaps because of the similarity of the name to Worcester in England which is
>>properly pronounced "Wooster" just as Gloucester is pronounced "Gloster".
>
>
> I would submit then, that Gloucester should be pronounced
> "glue-kester."
Why would you possibly expect a 'k' sound? Do you pronounce 'incest' as
'inkest'?
--
Rob Bannister
R H Draney
In this context, that's a little off-putting....
(In the same spirit, I'll induce a cringe in everyone who bothers to follow this
link: http://web.newsguy.com/dadoctah/images/prickpunch.jpg)....r
R H Draney
>
>I would submit then, that Gloucester should be pronounced
>"Gloster." Likewise if the officials of Worcester want it pronounced
>"Wooster," they should spell it "Wooster."
>
>If a letter is silent, it has no business being there.
That'll never fly here in Feeniks....
In any event, you'll first have to take care of the A in aisle, the B in subtle,
the C in indict, the D in handsome, the E in twitched, the F in neufchātel, the
G in gnone, the H in myrrh, the I in heifer, the J in marijuana, the K in
knight, the L in talkathon, the first M in mnemonic, the N in autumn, the O in
leopard, the P in psychoneurotic, the Q in cinq-cents, the R in atelier, the S
in viscount, the T in hautboy, the U in plaque, the V in fivepence, the W in
writhing, the X in billet-doux, the Y in prayerful, and the Z in
rendezvous...then and only then should you start in on proper names....
Word list, by the way, courtesy of Willard Espy...I'm not entirely happy with
it; for one thing, there are too many unabsorbed gallisms....r
Christopher Johnson
"Unabsorbed gallisms"? That sounds like a physical ailment!
Perhaps you meant 'unabsorbed Gallicisms'?
Raymond S. Wise
news:cemht4$361$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
Occasionally, of course, "unnecessary letters" become "necessary": Two cases
in point: "ugh" where the "gh" was not originally pronounced like a hard
"g," as it often is today, and "kiln," in which the "n" is usually
pronounced, despite the fact it was once usually pronounced as "kill."
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Steve Hayes
I've know people to use the caught vowel in salt too.
Perhaps they think it makes them sound fraffly U.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Charles Riggs
Piss off, Christopher.
--
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
<chris_jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Charles Riggs wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 03:51:41 GMT, Christopher Johnson
>> <chris_jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Dylan Nicholson wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I'd take it over any other condiment any day. Especially good on sausage
>> >> rolls (=AmE...um...anybody?).
>> >
>> >No such thing in AmE, I'm afraid.
>>
>> He was referring to sausage buns, not that all Americans call them
>> that.
>
>Rubbish, Charles. A sausage roll is made from *pastry*
>and so could not be (correctly) referred to as a 'bun',
>which, by definition, is made from bread. You appear
>not to know what a 'sausage roll' is, Charles.
I know better than you, being infinitely older, thus having time to
consume an infinitely greater number of both sausages and hamburgers,
but many Americans don't call sausage rolls by that term. That was the
point, since you missed it. 'Hot dog buns', if AUEers are right, is
preferred over 'hot dog rolls' in America: something you'd know if you
were paying attention a few months back.
You do know, I hope, than the bread that often encloses a hamburger
patty is correctly termed a *bun*, made from 'pastry', as you put it.
>> >They (Americans) don't know
>> >what they're missing, do they? Oh well, you can't miss what
>> >you've never known, I suppose! :-)
>>
>> You don't know what you're missing either, unless you've been at least
>> as far east as Germany.
>
>I've been to many European countries, including Poland.
Sorry. Since you keep telling us how your parents restrict your
movements, I didn't realise P and M let you out of the backyard. I
hope you enjoyed Poland more than you have America.
>> Your snide remark about Americans fell
>> especially short this time.
>
>I'm sorry you found my remark to be snide, Charles. It
>certainly was not intended to be so. Nevertheless, I
>have re-read what I wrote but I found there to be nothing
>snide about it whatsoever.
ObAUE: please check this out:
1 in the COD -- 'derogatory or mocking in an indirect way.'
You don't frequently knock Americans, especially their English? Same
old, same old, was all I was saying.
>You are simply over-sensitive
>sometimes, and I stand by every single word I wrote.
You're the kid here, we're the adults. A concept, yes a concept, Coop,
you might consider. You don't tell me or anyone else here we're
'simply over-sensitive'. You haven't met the tiniest fraction of the
people I have, or that most of us have, so you're not in the best of
positions to judge character.
--
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
British, smitish. You'll be no happier in Britain than you are in
America, until you grow up. Your attitude is what needs adjusting, not
your locality.
--
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
Indeed, but since human flesh is said to be sweet-tasting, mustard
might go even better with it. Coleman's, perhaps. Ying and yang, and
all that.
--
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
<matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
>"Charles Riggs" <chr...@eircom.net> wrote...
>>
>> If such considerations are of any importance, you should know it isn't
>> possible for a city's people to 'mispronounce' the name of their city,
>
>Known as the Shrewsbury Rule.
So you're calling me a woman. Hey, not the worst.
--
Charles Riggs
André Hartmann
That should be "tornados" then .. since youre so after eliminating silent
letters :)
Jonathan Jordan
news:2n7uaqF...@uni-berlin.de...
Depends on the accent. It's quite common in northern England (and the
north Midlands, e.g. Stoke on Trent) for people to have /u/ (as in
"Luke") in words spelt <ook>, e.g. "look", "book", "cook". However I
think such accents usually have /U/ (or /V/ - many such accents don't
have a "put"/"putt" distinction) in other words with RP /U/, probably
including "Worcester" /'wUst@(r)/.
OTOH, I understand that Scottish English has a genuine /U/~/u/ merger,
to go with its "cot"/"caught" merger.
Jonathan
Jonathan Jordan
news:1ca2e706.04080...@posting.google.com...
> Joe Fineman <j...@TheWorld.com> wrote in message
news:<wkzn5dg...@TheWorld.com>...
> > Surely you mean "Woosester":
> >
> > There was once a young lady of Worcester
> > Who usest to crow like a roosester.
> > She usest to climb
> > Two trees at a time,
> > But her sisester usest to boosest her.
> >
> > Conceivably you will get your wish if you live long enough.
Americans
> > have often taken up spelling pronunciations of slurred British
place
> > names (Waltham, MA, & Birmingham, AL are conspicuous examples),
and
> > even the Brits are doing it at home, as part of what Gowers, in
MEU 2,
> > calls "the speak-as-you-spell movement".
>
> Ten or so years ago, in conversation with a Brit from near
Cambridge,
> I mentioned Pontefract -- and she had no idea where I was talking
> about. She'd never heard it pronounced anyway other than /'pan ti
> fr@kt/, while I had remembered what I'd read about the name years
> before and said /'pVm frEt/.
I'm from rather closer than Cambridge to Pontefract, and I'd say
/'pA.ntIfrakt/ - that's "PONT-i-fract" for IPA-phobes - with a full
vowel and not a schwa in the third syllable. (I presume your /a/ is
meant to be a "cot" vowel, but we're talking Yorkshire here - /a/ is
in "cat".) I don't know what real locals say.
> Is Newcastle pronounced correctly at home? :-)
The local pronunciation of Newcastle (upon Tyne) is, I believe,
/nju'kas@l/, with second syllable stress and a "cat" vowel in the
second syllable. In the rest of the country people tend to say
/'njukas@l/ (north) or /'njukA:s@l/ (south). There are other
Newcastles around, of course, and they may have different local
pronunciations.
Jonathan
Alan Jones
"Jacqui" <sirlawren...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9539E040DEE01si...@163.1.2.7...
> Alan Jones wibbled
>
> > A local oddity is Calne: older natives use the 'a' of 'bat' and
> > pronounce the 'l', younger natives and incomers say "kahn",
> > presumably on the model of "calm" and "palm".
>
> Hmmm, I use the a of 'calm' but pronounce the l. Taught by a local.
That may well be more "correct". The vowel I hear as the 'a' of "bat" is
perhaps just the more rural version of 'ah'. As an incomer, I learned local
pronunciations from the craftsmen building my bungalow, especially Mick
(tiling, slabs etc.) whose ripe accent matched his intimate knowledge of the
Devizes-Chippenham-Calne part of Wiltshire and its history.
> > Another town nearby
> > is Chippenham (chip-n'm in casual speech) which has a
> > newly-developed area given the name of Cepen Park. The "Cepen" is
> > the Anglo-Saxon name for Chippenham (there was a famous battle
> > there between Alfred and the Danish army under Guthrum), and
> > should therefore properly be pronounced with 'tch', but everyone
> > says "see-p'n" - eliminating the connection with the town of which
> > Cepen Park is a mini-suburb.
>
> Oh dear. Where is Cepen Park? /me Googles. Ah, right. My end of town
> (lived within 10 minutes of CTC for 2 years).
>
> And what about the pronunciation of Hardenhuish, eh?
What indeed? I've never heard anyone say the word. If I were forced to say
it, I suppose it would come out as "HARD'n- HOO-ish", but that's too easy to
be right. How about "hard-nish"? Please advise me. (For the vast majority of
our readers, who won't know where Chippenham is, let alone Hardenhuish:
Hardenhuish is an outlying district of Chippenham unaccountably colonised by
several large schools. Chippenham is a medium-sized market town in northern
Wiltshire, now rapidly growing because it has a fast[ish] rail link to
Reading and London and is only a mile or two from the M4 motorway linking
London Heathrow to Wales and so by sea to Ireland.)
Alan Jones
david56
Actually, having grown up in Worcestershire, I have absolutely no
problem in pronouncing the name.
--
David
=====
Christopher Johnson
> Piss off, Christopher.
You know what, Charles, I think I will do just that. I admit to
finding it extremely difficult to respect condescending adults
who rudely tell me to "piss off" simply because I refuse to
pretend they aren't utterly clueless about something ('sausage
rolls' in your case).
Django Cat
wrote:
> In article <2n5o1gF...@uni-berlin.de>,
> "Dylan Nicholson" <wizo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> "Skitt" <ski...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:2n5nr1F...@uni-berlin.de...
>> > Dylan Nicholson wrote:
>> > > "Skitt" wrote:
>> > >> Robert Bannister wrote:
>> > >>> Joachim Herzog wrote:
>> > >>>> "Robert Bannister" wrote:
>> >
>> > >>>>> What silly person would thing that?
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> If you thing that, you've got another thing coming.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>> Yuck! I can't believe I wrote that. I'd better swallow some
>> > >>> Worcester sauce.
>> > >>
>> > >> I thought you were doing an AUE "in" joke.
>> > >
>> > > He still is. Obviously you're just not "in" enough - don't you know
>> > > the difference between
>> > > Worcester sauce and Worcestershire sauce?
>> >
>> > I don't use it. Don't like it.
>>
>> I'd take it over any other condiment any day. Especially good on
>> sausage
>> rolls (=AmE...um...anybody?).
>
> Sausage McMuffin.
>
Not even close.
Bob Cunningham
Stick around, Christopher. You don't have to respect anyone
to be comfortable here.
Dr Robin Bignall
wrote:
Cooked human is known as 'long pig' is it not? Apple sauce sounds
appropriate.
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Hertfordshire
England
Jacqui
> Jacqui wrote
>
> What indeed? I've never heard anyone say the word. If I were
> forced to say it, I suppose it would come out as "HARD'n-
> HOO-ish", but that's too easy to be right. How about "hard-nish"?
> Please advise me.
Your suspicion is correct. It used to be "Harnish" (or 'arnish), but
since the school was built it's drifted to "HARD'n-HOO-ish" or "HARD'n-
HEW-ish". Which is a shame, really.
Jac
Mike Lyle
[...]
> I've know people to use the caught vowel in salt too.
>
> Perhaps they think it makes them sound fraffly U.
Good heavens! How do you say it, then? The 'cot' vowel?
What about 'tall', and 'already', and 'balk'?
Mike.
Mike Lyle
[...]
> Occasionally, of course, "unnecessary letters" become "necessary": [Two cases
> in point:] "ugh" where the "gh" was not originally pronounced like a hard
Interesting. A new one on me. What's that in a phonetic transcription, please?
Mike.
Mike Lyle
> "Areff" <m...@privacy.net> wrote...
> > Steve Hayes wrote:
> > > Perhaps because of the similarity of the name to Worcester in
> > > England which is properly pronounced "Wooster" just as Gloucester
> > > is pronounced "Gloster".
> >
> > I thought that UK folks told us a few years ago that "Worcester" and
> > "Wooster" are not homophones. (Unless maybe there are some
> > Englandish dialects with look/Luke merger. It *sounds* to me like
> > many Englandish people pronounce "book" as [buk] rather than [bUk].)
>
> many dialects of BrEnglish give "look" the longer vowel of "Luke" as you
> "Worcester" but many people give him the longer vowel. If anyone knows
> how Wodehouse himself conceived it, I'd be fascinated.
Dunno. But AYK his own name was "wood-house". (I'd love to think that
was Chaucerian, and meant "mad-house".)
Mike.
Jonathan Jordan
news:3fa4d950.04080...@posting.google.com...
> haye...@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) wrote in message
news:<410f1ed6...@news.saix.net>...
> [...]
> > I've know people to use the caught vowel in salt too.
> >
> > Perhaps they think it makes them sound fraffly U.
>
> Good heavens! How do you say it, then? The 'cot' vowel?
Quite likely. A lot of people in Britain do. If you look at Prof
J.C.Wells's 1998 pronunciation survey
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/wells/poll98.htm
(NB self-selecting sample) the figures for "halt" (can we assume that
that rhymes with "salt"?) are 52% with /A./ as in "cot" and 48% with
/O:/ as in "caught".
If I had answered the survey, I'd have been thrown by this question.
For me "halt" and "salt" have the same vowel as "colt", phonemically
/o/ as in "coat", though the vowel quality is different before /l/.
> What about 'tall', and 'already', and 'balk'?
I have /O:/ in "tall" and "already", but "balk" is /bolk/. Also
"false" /fols/, "fault" /folt/ (in spite of the <au>), "also" /'olso/,
and indeed most cases of traditional RP /O:/ followed by
/l/+consonant.
Jonathan
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> >
> > If such considerations are of any importance, you should know it isn't
> > possible for a city's people to 'mispronounce' the name of their city,
>
> Known as the Shrewsbury Rule.
>
(including the quotes) was a commercial site that had nothing to do
with it! However, I know that the topic of how to pronounce it has
come up several times in aue.
The posh pronunciation is, I think, derived from a misunderstanding.
The earliest recognizable spellings of the name of the town have
"ow"or "ou", and date from a time when the normal pronunciation of
either spelling would be as in the modern pronunciation of "shrew".
Later on, the spelling was corrected to better reflect what was then
the universal pronunciation. Later still, some people made the wrong
deduction from the older spelling that the older, and supposedly
therefore more "correct", pronunciation had the diphthong we would now
spell as "o" (as in "so") or "ow" (as in "show").
athel
--
Athel Cornish-Bowden
at...@ibsm.cnrs-mrs.fr
http://bip.cnrs-mrs.fr/bip10/homepage.htm
Gary Williams
> "Adrian Bailey" <da...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<ZgoPc.49599$28.3...@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk>...
> it.
As one one of whose earliest posts to a.u.e. involved either an
ignorance of the consonant-before-front-vowels rule or else exceptions
thereto, I am in some sympathy.
However, as to your larger point, well, some languages undergo
periodic spelling reform, with, I imagine, one or more of these
consequences:
a) old texts become illegible
b) readers give old texts the pronunciations current in bygone
times, sort of like an English-speaker reading a Br'er Rabbit tale
c) many readers must adjust their reading of new texts as spelled
in order to accomodate local pronunciation variants.
And even in languages, such as Spanish, which undergo rather frequent
spelling reform, the reforms sometimes retain spelling features purely
for etymological reasons. Many native speakers of Spanish are, for
example, uncertain as to whether or not to put an 'h' at the beginning
of words like 'hombre' or 'onda'. Proper names are especially
resistant to spelling reforms: Ximenez and México, for example.
Once your spelling reforms are introduced, there is nothing,
especially in mostly-illiterate times, to prevent further
pronunciation change and necessitating further spelling reform.
Spelling pronunciation is a phenomenon of mostly-literate times; and
for how this can work out, somtimes amusingly, sometimes
embarrassingly, see the FAQ under "misles".
Gary Williams
Christopher Johnson
Thanks, Bob. I should just mention, though, that you happen
to be one of the posters I respect a lot! Perhaps I should
just try to keep a safe distance from Charles when he gets
annoyed with me like this.
--
Christopher ('CJ')
(Change 3032 to 7777 for e-mail)
R H Draney
>
>R H Draney wrote:
>
>> Word list, by the way, courtesy of Willard Espy...I'm not entirely happy with
>> it; for one thing, there are too many unabsorbed gallisms....r
>
>"Unabsorbed gallisms"? That sounds like a physical ailment!
>
>Perhaps you meant 'unabsorbed Gallicisms'?
Perhaps I did...nowadays we call them "freedomisms"....r