Freelance

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Maybe you know this already, but yesterday when I described my niece's
work as "a freelance tv photographer", I suddenly realized that I didn't
know the ethymology of "freelance". It turned out to be straight
forward: "free lance" = "mercenary". It's about 200 years old.

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Hibou]

It's usual if one doesn't want to be photographed to look daggers at the
camera. Looking lances would count as escalation.

Whatever, do you mean a still photographer or a TV camera operator?

[Janet]

In article <uqv82k$1q3g8$2...@dont-email.me>, vpaereru-
unmon...@yahoo.com.invalid says...

>
> Le 19/02/2024 à 08:51, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
> >
> > Maybe you know this already, but yesterday when I described my niece's
> > work as "a freelance tv photographer", I suddenly realized that I didn't
> > know the ethymology of "freelance". It turned out to be straight
> > forward: "free lance" = "mercenary". It's about 200 years old.

Interesting; that had never occurred to me.

>
> It's usual if one doesn't want to be photographed to look daggers at the
> camera. Looking lances would count as escalation.

Just a glancing black look might work. Or a veiled
expression.

Janet

[J. J. Lodder]

Janet <nob...@home.com> wrote:

> In article <uqv82k$1q3g8$2...@dont-email.me>, vpaereru-
> unmon...@yahoo.com.invalid says...
> >
> > Le 19/02/2024 à 08:51, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
> > >
> > > Maybe you know this already, but yesterday when I described my niece's
> > > work as "a freelance tv photographer", I suddenly realized that I didn't
> > > know the ethymology of "freelance". It turned out to be straight
> > > forward: "free lance" = "mercenary". It's about 200 years old.
>
> Interesting; that had never occurred to me.

Supposed to have been originated in 'Ivanhoe',
but that seems to be not quite true.

Sir Walter was more medieval than those poor misguided speakers
of middle English who didn't know their own language,

Jan

[occam]

Why straight forward? Mercenaries did not come free. 'Hirelance' or
'lanceforhire' would make more sense.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Hibou wrote:

> It's usual if one doesn't want to be photographed to look daggers at the
> camera. Looking lances would count as escalation.
>
> Whatever, do you mean a still photographer or a TV camera operator?

A camera operator. For a Dane they are all photographers (fotografer).

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

occam wrote:

> On 19/02/2024 09:51, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>> Maybe you know this already, but yesterday when I described my niece's
>> work as "a freelance tv photographer", I suddenly realized that I didn't
>> know the ethymology of "freelance". It turned out to be straight
>> forward: "free lance" = "mercenary". It's about 200 years old.
>>
>
> Why straight forward? Mercenaries did not come free.

Neither did free lancers:

Oxford Learner's Dictionaries (on ethymology)

early 19th cent. (denoting a mercenary): originally as two words.

> 'Hirelance' or 'lanceforhire' would make more sense.

Those words suggest to me that money is involved.

PS. They were not free of salary. They were unbound by a master.

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Jerry Friedman]

On Monday, February 19, 2024 at 3:40:24 AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Janet <nob...@home.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <uqv82k$1q3g8$2...@dont-email.me>, vpaereru-
> > unmon...@yahoo.com.invalid says...
> > >
> > > Le 19/02/2024 à 08:51, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
> > > >
> > > > Maybe you know this already, but yesterday when I described my niece's
> > > > work as "a freelance tv photographer", I suddenly realized that I didn't
> > > > know the ethymology of "freelance". It turned out to be straight
> > > > forward: "free lance" = "mercenary". It's about 200 years old.
> >
> > Interesting; that had never occurred to me.
>
> Supposed to have been originated in 'Ivanhoe',
> but that seems to be not quite true.

...

It's not? The OED and etymonline think it is.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Sam Plusnet]

Might a freebooter go ashore and become a freelance?
(Or indeed, vice versa)

I don't know what the relative rates of pay and levels of risk would be.

I have no idea why either the boot or the lance should be picked out in
this way.


--
Sam Plusnet

[Sam Plusnet]

But you could hire wholesale.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_company

--
Sam Plusnet

[Jerry Friedman]

On Monday, February 19, 2024 at 11:36:16 AM UTC-7, Sam Plusnet wrote:
...

> Might a freebooter go ashore and become a freelance?
> (Or indeed, vice versa)
>
> I don't know what the relative rates of pay and levels of risk would be.
>
> I have no idea why either the boot or the lance should be picked out in
> this way.

Speculation would be bootless.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Paul Wolff]

On Mon, 19 Feb 2024, at 14:53:56, Bertel Lund Hansen posted:

Just like a free mason, fully qualified after his apprenticeship and
available for hire on any cathedral building project.
--
Paul W

[bil...@shaw.ca]

When I worked in newspapers, a photographer took photographs for newspapers
or magazines, but a cameraman operated a video camera for television.

To my mind, someone who operates a video camera can't be described as a
photographer, because he doesn't take photographs. It is possible to extract
a single "still" frame from video, but it lacks the sharpness of a quality photo.

bill

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

bil...@shaw.ca wrote:

>>> Whatever, do you mean a still photographer or a TV camera operator?
>> A camera operator. For a Dane they are all photographers (fotografer).
>>
> When I worked in newspapers, a photographer took photographs for newspapers
> or magazines, but a cameraman operated a video camera for television.

I think that "kameramand" also exists in Danish, and maybe it's just me
that isn't involved in the branch.

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Sam Plusnet wrote:

> Might a freebooter go ashore and become a freelance?
> (Or indeed, vice versa)
>
> I don't know what the relative rates of pay and levels of risk would be.
>
> I have no idea why either the boot or the lance should be picked out in
> this way.

I don't think that it's a boot. Think "booty". In Danish it's a
"fribytter", where "bytte" has the same meaning as "booty" - probably
the same word.

--
Bertel, Denmark

[J. J. Lodder]

Jerry Friedman <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Now I'll have to search for it.
(may take some time)

Jan

[bil...@shaw.ca]

Similarly, Dutch has "vrijbuiter".

A quick search doesn't reveal which language originated the word, but I assume
it's from the days when when European explorers discovered wealth in various
forms around the world and either traded for or plundered it. I Wikipedia suggests
that it's from the days when the Spanish, the Portuguese and the Dutch were
finding sources of gold, silver and spices in the New World, and everyone from
rival nations' fleets, pirates, buccaneers and various sorts of freelancers lay in wait
for ships carrying the booty home.

bill

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

I suspected that the meaning is derived from one meaning of Danish
"bytte" which is exchange, and ODS and Oxford Learner's Dictionaries
(OLD)confirm my suspicion:

ODS:
fra mnt. bute, hvorfra ogs. oldn. býti, fsv. (sv.) byte,
ty. beute er laant; jf. II. bytte)

Middleage German "bute" - Old Norse "býti" - Swedish "byte"
German "beute"

OLD:
senses 1 to 2 late Middle English (originally denoting plunder
acquired in common): from Middle Low German būte, buite ‘exchange,
distribution’, of uncertain origin.

ODS: Ordbog over det Danske Sprog - dictionary of the Danish language -
the largest Danish dictionary.

The Danish word is alive in a word like "udbytte" - "outcome" and
"udbytteskat" - "taxes thereof".

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Sam Plusnet]

I was going to suggest that a bytte ought to be worth 8 boots - but I
decided not to.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Tony Cooper]

Generally, the person who uses a hand-held video camera professionally
or semi-professionally is called a "videographer" in the US. You
might hire both a videographer and a photographer to record a wedding.
The person who operates dolly-mounted cameras filming news shows,
entertainment events and sports is a called a "cameraman". That also
includes those who use those shoulder-mounted video cameras.

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <uqvkh9$1sps1$1...@dont-email.me>,

Bertel Lund Hansen <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

In the US, there is a distinction. We used to use the word
"videographer" but nowadays for location reporting it's not uncommon
to call them all "photogs". A "camera operator" would be someone who
operates a camera in a studio (or remotely, in a control room).
"Cameraman" is a relic of history.

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wol...@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 22:39:25 -0000 (UTC), wol...@bimajority.org
(Garrett Wollman) wrote:

>In article <uqvkh9$1sps1$1...@dont-email.me>,
>Bertel Lund Hansen <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>>Hibou wrote:
>>
>>> It's usual if one doesn't want to be photographed to look daggers at the
>>> camera. Looking lances would count as escalation.
>>>
>>> Whatever, do you mean a still photographer or a TV camera operator?
>>
>>A camera operator. For a Dane they are all photographers (fotografer).
>
>In the US, there is a distinction. We used to use the word
>"videographer" but nowadays for location reporting it's not uncommon
>to call them all "photogs". A "camera operator" would be someone who
>operates a camera in a studio (or remotely, in a control room).
>"Cameraman" is a relic of history.

Really? On any given (American) football game day, you are quite
likely to hear one of the booth people comment on how a player ran
into and over a "cameraman". That would be one of the men (I've never
seen a woman in that job) roaming the sidelines with a huge video
camera hung on his shoulder.

One of my daughter's classmates worked for a network doing just that.
He's no longer on the job, but we used to watch for George on the
sidelines when the Tampa Bay Bucs were playing. George, as far as I
know, is still a network cameraman, but he no longer works football
games. Last I heard, he does remotes for a news team.

There are fewer of them now at football games because of the advent of
overhead cameras that are remotely operated and skitter across wires
above the playing field, but I would hardly say "relic" describes the
function. Today's camera operator at a football game is closer to
being a drone controller than a cameraman.

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/65198de0e10adba9275576c774a026ee93561eac/0_306_4593_2756/master/4593.jpg?width=1200&height=1200&quality=85&auto=format&fit=crop&s=69a98dc11a00dba8d887f1355837a242

There might be some movement to discontinue the term "cameraman" and
replace it with "camera operator" by HR because of the gender-naming,
but I don't think that extends to the actual usage by those describing
the person.

Even though the cameraman captures images on video, I would not use
"videographer" to describe the function. A videographer generally
produces an entire package...a wedding and reception from start to
finish that includes only the subjects. A cameraman produces bits and
pieces fed into a larger production or images for a production like a
remote where another person provides narration.

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 20:42:42 -0500, Tony Cooper
<tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 22:39:25 -0000 (UTC), wol...@bimajority.org
>(Garrett Wollman) wrote:
>
>>In article <uqvkh9$1sps1$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>Bertel Lund Hansen <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>>>Hibou wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's usual if one doesn't want to be photographed to look daggers at the
>>>> camera. Looking lances would count as escalation.
>>>>
>>>> Whatever, do you mean a still photographer or a TV camera operator?
>>>
>>>A camera operator. For a Dane they are all photographers (fotografer).
>>
>>In the US, there is a distinction. We used to use the word
>>"videographer" but nowadays for location reporting it's not uncommon
>>to call them all "photogs". A "camera operator" would be someone who
>>operates a camera in a studio (or remotely, in a control room).
>>"Cameraman" is a relic of history.
>

>There are fewer of them now at football games because of the advent of
>overhead cameras that are remotely operated and skitter across wires
>above the playing field, but I would hardly say "relic" describes the
>function. Today's camera operator at a football game is closer to
>being a drone controller than a cameraman.

Drifting a bit...there was a fairly recent thread on a "Bucket
List"...things one would like to do or accomplish before passing on..

My Bucket List would include going to a professional (American)
football game with access to the control room where the camera feeds
are determined. I would love to see how the choices are made in the
control room for what is shown during a game. There are many cameras
involved at one time and each play is covered by several cameras.

I've been to many pro football games, but always in the stands. I'd
like to be in the trailer - usually in the parking lot - where the
control room is located.

[lar3ryca]

Word!

--
मैं नहीं जानता
यह हिंदी में है

[lar3ryca]

They aren't exactly 'skittering across wires'. They are actually
suspended by three cables which can be reeled in or let out to position
the camera in three dimensions.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skycam

> https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/65198de0e10adba9275576c774a026ee93561eac/0_306_4593_2756/master/4593.jpg?width=1200&height=1200&quality=85&auto=format&fit=crop&s=69a98dc11a00dba8d887f1355837a242
>
> There might be some movement to discontinue the term "cameraman" and
> replace it with "camera operator" by HR because of the gender-naming,
> but I don't think that extends to the actual usage by those describing
> the person.
>
> Even though the cameraman captures images on video, I would not use
> "videographer" to describe the function. A videographer generally
> produces an entire package...a wedding and reception from start to
> finish that includes only the subjects. A cameraman produces bits and
> pieces fed into a larger production or images for a production like a
> remote where another person provides narration.
>

--
All roght, whi swotched my keytips ariund?

[Tony Cooper]

Semantics. Skitter: to move lightly and quickly. I think that
describes the movement of a suspended camera moving at up to 29 mph at
the direction of someone trying to follow the movement of one ball and
22 men clashing together.

[Hibou]

Le 19/02/2024 à 22:39, Garrett Wollman a écrit :
> In article <uqvkh9$1sps1$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Bertel Lund Hansen <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>> Hibou wrote:
>>>
>>> Whatever, do you mean a still photographer or a TV camera operator?
>>
>> A camera operator. For a Dane they are all photographers (fotografer).
>
> In the US, there is a distinction. We used to use the word
> "videographer" but nowadays for location reporting it's not uncommon
> to call them all "photogs". A "camera operator" would be someone who
> operates a camera in a studio (or remotely, in a control room).
> "Cameraman" is a relic of history.

<https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=cameraman%2Ccamerawoman%2Ccameraperson%2Ccamera+operator%2Cvideographer&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=en-US-2019&smoothing=3>

'Camera operator' seems to be the current PC term.

[Hibou]

... This last from scanning job ads and sites listing careers in television.

[occam]

On 19/02/2024 19:36, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> Might a freebooter go ashore and become a freelance?
> (Or indeed, vice versa)

In fact historically some mercenaries ('free lancers') were rewarded
with the spoils of war in lieu of pay.

The main difference between freebooters and freelancers is that the
former are self-employed while the latter hire themselves out for pay. A
bit like whores - not so free.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

lar3ryca wrote:

>> There are fewer of them now at football games because of the advent of
>> overhead cameras that are remotely operated and skitter across wires
>> above the playing field, but I would hardly say "relic" describes the
>> function. Today's camera operator at a football game is closer to
>> being a drone controller than a cameraman.
>
> They aren't exactly 'skittering across wires'. They are actually
> suspended by three cables which can be reeled in or let out to position
> the camera in three dimensions.

Why don't they use 'free' drones? Is it too dangerous for the players if
they should drop out of the sky (the drones - not the players)?

--
Bertel, Denmark

[J. J. Lodder]

bil...@shaw.ca <bil...@shaw.ca> wrote:

Data point: The recently awarded with something Hoye van Hoytema,
(Oppenheimer)
for being 'director of photography', not 'director of cinematography'
nor 'director of videography' or anything like that.

It seems fairly obvious that he didn't get that award for taking stills,

Jan

[Hibou]

A director of photography is a step up from a cameraman...

<https://www.screenskills.com/job-profiles/browse/film-and-tv-drama/technical/director-of-photography-dop/>
:

"Film and TV drama / Director of photography (DoP) / Also known as:
Cinematographer (especially when the DoP operates the camera), DoP, DP /
Directors of photography are responsible for the photographic heart of a
production. / They read the screenplay and work closely with the
director to discuss the look and feel of a film. They then research how
to create the look through lighting, framing and camera movement and
what they will need in terms of kit and crew to achieve this."

Videoing is 'photography', it is 'painting with light'. Nonetheless, the
chap or chapess behind the camera is a 'cameraman' or 'camera operator',
not a 'photographer'.

Most stills photographers work alone. They are in effect their own
artistic directors. A film or television cameraman would hardly ever
work alone.

[Ken Blake]

I still remember. It was close to 30 years ago that I was on a cruise
ship on Halloween. In the auditorium the MC was interviewing several
people in costumes. One was a boy around 5 or 6 years old, dressed as
a pirate.

The MC asked, "are you a pirate?"

The boy replied "yes," and the MC then asked, "if you're a pirate,
where's your booty?"

The boy looked down at his feet and said, "pirates sometimes wear
sandals."

[lar3ryca]

It was not 'skittering' I was commenting on. It was 'across the wires',
which skycams definitely do not do.

--
When I was a child, my dad used to hit me with a camera.
I still have flashbacks.

[lar3ryca]

In our stadium, they do use drones, but they are hovering well above
ground, but not within the boundaries of the stadium itself, and are
used more for 'filler' on the Maxtron (scoreboard/replay screen) than
for following plays.

If they used them within the stadium for following plays, they would be
low enough to be at risk of being hit by the ball, especially ones that
have been kicked. As it is now, the skycam could be hit, but if it is,
there is no danger of it falling .

--
I don't think I got the job at Microsoft.
They haven't responded to my telegram.

[lar3ryca]

A friend once told me about a conversation between his two young children:

"Why do they call them 'undies'?"
"Silly, it's because they are under your overies."

--
⨄ International symbol for "More wine, please."

[bil...@shaw.ca]

They're much more likely to drop into the stands, which may have tens
of thousands of people in them, any number of whom could be maimed
by the whirling blades.

Imagine the lawsuits.

bill

[lar3ryca]

I once read a caution about drone flying. It was soe\mething like this:

Pretend that your drone is a brick with 4 rotating razors.

--
I read that 10 out of two people are dyslexic.