... save that thou art

[Oliver Cromm]

I had difficulties with a version of the hymn "Be thou my vision":

| Be thou my vision, o Lord of my heart
| Be all else but naught to me, save that thou art

To me that seemed to mean "please, Lord, be something, anything
else but nothing to me, but alas, you are [nothing]!" Suits me,
but couldn't well be intended, in a hymn.

From reading other translations (the original is Irish, I
learned), I conclude that "all else" refers to the rest of the
world. I can read it that way, but then find it hard again to
interpret the "save" part. Can someone translate to ordinary
English, please?

--
Q: What do computer engineers use for birth control?
A: Their personalities.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, August 9, 2016 at 4:06:54 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:

> I had difficulties with a version of the hymn "Be thou my vision":
>
> | Be thou my vision, o Lord of my heart
> | Be all else but naught to me, save that thou art
>
> To me that seemed to mean "please, Lord, be something, anything
> else but nothing to me, but alas, you are [nothing]!" Suits me,
> but couldn't well be intended, in a hymn.
>
> From reading other translations (the original is Irish, I
> learned), I conclude that "all else" refers to the rest of the
> world. I can read it that way, but then find it hard again to
> interpret the "save" part. Can someone translate to ordinary
> English, please?

It means 'Be anything, just don't be anything to me other than what you are."

'Except' is a meaning for "save."

"All save one escaped the conflagration. Unfortunately, the firefighters
couldn't get to the bedridden matriarch in time."

[James Hogg]

Oliver Cromm wrote:
> I had difficulties with a version of the hymn "Be thou my vision":
>
> | Be thou my vision, o Lord of my heart
> | Be all else but naught to me, save that thou art

The version I know scans better:

Naught be all else to me, save that Thou art

--
James

[bert]

On Tuesday, 9 August 2016 21:15:19 UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 9, 2016 at 4:06:54 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:
>
> > I had difficulties with a version of the hymn "Be thou my vision":
> >
> > | Be thou my vision, o Lord of my heart
> > | Be all else but naught to me, save that thou art

> > Can someone translate to ordinary English, please?
>
> It means 'Be anything, just don't be anything to me
> other than what you are."
>
> 'Except' is a meaning for "save."

Sorry, that's mostly wrong. Yes, 'save' here means
'except for', but the meaning of the lines is rather:

Let nothing else matter to me, except that You exist.
--

[Richard Tobin]

In article <4048lgpsfrvf$.d...@mid.crommatograph.info>,

Oliver Cromm <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>I had difficulties with a version of the hymn "Be thou my vision":
>
>| Be thou my vision, o Lord of my heart
>| Be all else but naught to me, save that thou art
>
>To me that seemed to mean "please, Lord, be something, anything
>else but nothing to me, but alas, you are [nothing]!" Suits me,
>but couldn't well be intended, in a hymn.

I take it to mean "Nothing is important to me, except that you exist".

-- Richard

[Cheryl]

I think it means "Let everything else be nothing to me, except you."
(or, a bit better I think "Let everything except you mean nothing to me")

There's a fair bit of archaic and/or unusual usage in the older hymns,
although eventually some people change them. I don't think modern hymn
books have "There is a green hill far away without a city wall" any
more, although now that I think of it, they probably don't sing that
hymn at all, but sing modern "worship songs" instead.


I'm trying to remember what is changed in "Jesus Loves Me", but it's
more a case of making the singer feel better than old language. The hymn
only shows up in my live these days once in a while at a baptism - and
three quarters of the people still sing "They are weak but he is
strong" instead of "In his love they will be strong"


--
Cheryl

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Jerry Friedman]

That's the one I learned in middle school. I always wondered whether it
was "except that you exist" or "except what you are".

--
Jerry Friedman
"No Trump" bridge-themed political shirts: cafepress.com/jerrysdesigns
Bumper stickers ditto: cafepress/jerrysstickers

[Richard Heathfield]

On 09/08/16 21:41, Cheryl wrote:
<snip>

> There's a fair bit of archaic and/or unusual usage in the older hymns,
> although eventually some people change them. I don't think modern hymn
> books have "There is a green hill far away without a city wall" any
> more, although now that I think of it, they probably don't sing that
> hymn at all, but sing modern "worship songs" instead.

It is still occasionally sung around these parts, albeit mostly TTTO
"House of the Rising Sun".

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[Cheryl]

On 2016-08-09 6:18 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On 8/9/16 2:34 PM, James Hogg wrote:
>> Oliver Cromm wrote:
>>> I had difficulties with a version of the hymn "Be thou my vision":
>>>
>>> | Be thou my vision, o Lord of my heart
>>> | Be all else but naught to me, save that thou art
>>
>> The version I know scans better:
>>
>> Naught be all else to me, save that Thou art
>
> That's the one I learned in middle school. I always wondered whether it
> was "except that you exist" or "except what you are".
>

I always took it to mean that you (God) are more important than anyone
or anything else - which, although a very strong statement, does fit
well with Christian theology. Putting someone or something else in that
number 1 position is idolatry. Doing that is also quite dangerous
psychologically - obsession over a person or thing is surely damaging to
the person with that "devotion", and often to the target as well, when
the target is human.

Of course, so can devotion to God that isn't informed by study and prayer.

[grammar...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, August 9, 2016 at 1:06:54 PM UTC-7, Oliver Cromm wrote:
> I had difficulties with a version of the hymn "Be thou my vision":
>
> | Be thou my vision, o Lord of my heart
> | Be all else but naught to me, save that thou art
>

I read "save that though art" as a delayed modifier of "else":
--> Be all else, save that thou art, but naught to me.
--> May all else, save that thou art, be but naught to me.
--> May everything else, except that you are, be as nothing to me.

The question is whether "be" is the copula (Jerry) or means "exist" (Bert).
1. May everything else, except that [which] you are, be as nothing to me.
2. May everything else, except that you [exist], be as nothing to me.
I'm fond of reading (1) but wonder about the missing "which."

[Oliver Cromm]

* bert:

That makes sense; after I had another interpretation in mind, it
took time to make the switch to art=exist.

--
Ice hockey is a form of disorderly conduct
in which the score is kept.
-- Doug Larson

[Mack A. Damia]

On Tue, 9 Aug 2016 18:48:40 -0400, Oliver Cromm
<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* bert:
>
>> On Tuesday, 9 August 2016 21:15:19 UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, August 9, 2016 at 4:06:54 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:
>>>
>>>> I had difficulties with a version of the hymn "Be thou my vision":
>>>>
>>>> | Be thou my vision, o Lord of my heart
>>>> | Be all else but naught to me, save that thou art
>>>> Can someone translate to ordinary English, please?
>>>
>>> It means 'Be anything, just don't be anything to me
>>> other than what you are."
>>>
>>> 'Except' is a meaning for "save."
>>
>> Sorry, that's mostly wrong. Yes, 'save' here means
>> 'except for', but the meaning of the lines is rather:
>>
>> Let nothing else matter to me, except that You exist.
>
>That makes sense; after I had another interpretation in mind, it
>took time to make the switch to art=exist.

"Be my whole life."

[Cheetah99218]

On Tue, 9 Aug 2016 16:06:53 -0400, Oliver Cromm
<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>I had difficulties with a version of the hymn "Be thou my vision":
>
>| Be thou my vision, o Lord of my heart
>| Be all else but naught to me, save that thou art
>
>To me that seemed to mean "please, Lord, be something, anything
>else but nothing to me, but alas, you are [nothing]!" Suits me,
>but couldn't well be intended, in a hymn.
>
>From reading other translations (the original is Irish, I
>learned), I conclude that "all else" refers to the rest of the
>world. I can read it that way, but then find it hard again to
>interpret the "save" part. Can someone translate to ordinary
>English, please?

My hymnal reads:

"Nought be all else to me, save that Thou art"

which, to me, means

'nothing else matters to me except that Thou exist'

[bill van]

In article <8itkqbhiue1a2gqe0...@4ax.com>,

That's my reading as well.
--
bill

[Will Parsons]

On Tuesday, 9 Aug 2016 4:55 PM -0400, Cheryl wrote:
> On 2016-08-09 6:18 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On 8/9/16 2:34 PM, James Hogg wrote:
>>> Oliver Cromm wrote:
>>>> I had difficulties with a version of the hymn "Be thou my vision":
>>>>
>>>> | Be thou my vision, o Lord of my heart
>>>> | Be all else but naught to me, save that thou art
>>>
>>> The version I know scans better:
>>>
>>> Naught be all else to me, save that Thou art
>>
>> That's the one I learned in middle school. I always wondered whether it
>> was "except that you exist" or "except what you are".

I've always thought the latter - it's not merely a matter of God
existing, but of who he is.

> I always took it to mean that you (God) are more important than anyone
> or anything else - which, although a very strong statement, does fit
> well with Christian theology. Putting someone or something else in that
> number 1 position is idolatry. Doing that is also quite dangerous
> psychologically - obsession over a person or thing is surely damaging to
> the person with that "devotion", and often to the target as well, when
> the target is human.

+1

--
Will

[Percival P. Cassidy]

"existest."

Perce

[grammar...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, August 9, 2016 at 1:06:54 PM UTC-7, Oliver Cromm wrote:

> I had difficulties with a version of the hymn "Be thou my vision":
>
> | Be thou my vision, o Lord of my heart
> | Be all else but naught to me, save that thou art
>

Thinking outside the grammatical box, I'm reminded of the
Eastern concept/mantrum "Thou art that" (Tat tvam asai),
which, with topicalization, is "That thou art." Perhaps
"save that thou art" could be read "save 'THAT THOU ART.'"
I'm stretching, I know, but it feels good. :)

[Will Parsons]

I don't think so - a subjunctive is called for.
cf. "What's important is that he be there."

--
Will

[Jerry Friedman]

On 8/9/16 2:55 PM, Cheryl wrote:
> On 2016-08-09 6:18 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On 8/9/16 2:34 PM, James Hogg wrote:
>>> Oliver Cromm wrote:
>>>> I had difficulties with a version of the hymn "Be thou my vision":
>>>>
>>>> | Be thou my vision, o Lord of my heart
>>>> | Be all else but naught to me, save that thou art
>>>
>>> The version I know scans better:
>>>
>>> Naught be all else to me, save that Thou art
>>
>> That's the one I learned in middle school. I always wondered whether it
>> was "except that you exist" or "except what you are".
>>
> I always took it to mean that you (God) are more important than anyone
> or anything else - which, although a very strong statement, does fit
> well with Christian theology. Putting someone or something else in that
> number 1 position is idolatry. Doing that is also quite dangerous
> psychologically - obsession over a person or thing is surely damaging to
> the person with that "devotion", and often to the target as well, when
> the target is human.

There's a lot of room between being obsessed with someone or something
and seeing everybody and everything, except God, as nothing.

> Of course, so can devotion to God that isn't informed by study and prayer.

I take it you're still writing from a Christian point of view.

[Jerry Friedman]

Speaking of subjunctives, it doesn't mean "nothing else matters to me"
but "may nothing else matter to me".

I'm afraid I don't know whether "art" is the second-person singular
subjunctive of "be". However, the KJV seems to use "if thou be", and
Milton and Shakespeare seem to use "if thou beest" (and maybe other
forms). I rather think "art" was intended as indicative.

[Jerry Friedman]

On 8/9/16 3:13 PM, grammar...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 9, 2016 at 1:06:54 PM UTC-7, Oliver Cromm wrote:
>> I had difficulties with a version of the hymn "Be thou my vision":
>>
>> | Be thou my vision, o Lord of my heart
>> | Be all else but naught to me, save that thou art
>>
>
> I read "save that though art" as a delayed modifier of "else":
> --> Be all else, save that thou art, but naught to me.
> --> May all else, save that thou art, be but naught to me.
> --> May everything else, except that you are, be as nothing to me.
>
> The question is whether "be" is the copula (Jerry) or means "exist" (Bert).
> 1. May everything else, except that [which] you are, be as nothing to me.
> 2. May everything else, except that you [exist], be as nothing to me.
> I'm fond of reading (1) but wonder about the missing "which."

...

"That" used to mean "that which" sometimes. The OED says:

3 a. Of things: thăt = (the thing) that, that which, what. Very common
down to 16th c.; now /arch./ and /poetic/, /what/ being the prose
form.In later use the single that may become emphatic, and is then
demonstrative with ellipsis of the relative: see that pron.1 7.
c888 Ælfred tr. Boethius De Consol. Philos. xxvi. §1 Þonne ðu..oððe
hæfdest þæt ðu noldes oððe næfdest þæt ðu woldest.
c1175 Lamb. Hom. 5 Nu scule ȝe understonden þet hit bi-tacnet.
c1315 Shoreham vi. 11 Þou hast y-ryȝt þat was amys, Ywonne þat was
y-lore.
a1325 (▸c1250) Gen. & Exod. (1968) l. 3066 Ðat ail ða bileaf sal
al ben numen.
a1400 (▸a1325) Cursor Mundi (Vesp.) l. 3711 He ete and dranc þat
was his will.
c1400 Laud Troy Bk. 7877 Antenor did that In him was.
1477–9 in H. Littlehales Medieval Rec. London City Church (1905) 91
Paid to hewe Clerk that he lackyd in his wagis.
1535 Bible (Coverdale) Matt. xx. 14 Take that thine is [ Wyclif that
that is thine] and go thy waye.
a1568 R. Ascham Scholemaster (1570) i. f. 12v, Where they should,
neither see that was vncumlie, nor heare that was vnhonest.
1611 Bible (King James) Job xlii. 3 Therefore haue I vttered that I
vnderstood not.
a1616 Shakespeare As you like It (1623) iii. ii. 71, I earne that I
eate: get that I weare.
1887 W. Morris tr. Homer Odyssey I. xii. 225 In peace eat that ye have.

The next definition, "b. Of persons [etc.]", cites "I am that I am."

[Peter Moylan]

Doesn't that depend on one's religious views? The subjunctive works if
the singer has doubts about the existence of the god being addressed.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Cheryl]

On 2016-08-10 2:19 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 2016-Aug-10 12:59, Will Parsons wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 9 Aug 2016 9:45 PM -0400, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
>>> On 08/09/2016 08:36 PM, Cheetah99218 wrote:
>
>>>> My hymnal reads:
>>>>
>>>> "Nought be all else to me, save that Thou art"
>>>>
>>>> which, to me, means
>>>>
>>>> 'nothing else matters to me except that Thou exist'
>>>
>>> "existest."
>>
>> I don't think so - a subjunctive is called for.
>> cf. "What's important is that he be there."
>
> Doesn't that depend on one's religious views? The subjunctive works if
> the singer has doubts about the existence of the god being addressed.
>

I doubt if the writer of the hymn intended to express doubts about the
existence of God.

--
Cheryl

[Cheryl]

On 2016-08-10 2:07 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On 8/9/16 2:55 PM, Cheryl wrote:
>> On 2016-08-09 6:18 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> On 8/9/16 2:34 PM, James Hogg wrote:
>>>> Oliver Cromm wrote:
>>>>> I had difficulties with a version of the hymn "Be thou my vision":
>>>>>
>>>>> | Be thou my vision, o Lord of my heart
>>>>> | Be all else but naught to me, save that thou art
>>>>
>>>> The version I know scans better:
>>>>
>>>> Naught be all else to me, save that Thou art
>>>
>>> That's the one I learned in middle school. I always wondered whether it
>>> was "except that you exist" or "except what you are".
>>>
>> I always took it to mean that you (God) are more important than anyone
>> or anything else - which, although a very strong statement, does fit
>> well with Christian theology. Putting someone or something else in that
>> number 1 position is idolatry. Doing that is also quite dangerous
>> psychologically - obsession over a person or thing is surely damaging to
>> the person with that "devotion", and often to the target as well, when
>> the target is human.
>
> There's a lot of room between being obsessed with someone or something
> and seeing everybody and everything, except God, as nothing.

Obsession is, by definition, excessive. I suppose it could be used to
refer to less overwhelming psychological states of mind - I say I'm
obsessed over keeping the house clean (I'm not, actually), but mean that
I am too concerned over it but not that I devote all my time to it and
refuse to allow anyone in my life to, say, put their jacket on the wrong
hanger.

>> Of course, so can devotion to God that isn't informed by study and
>> prayer.
>
> I take it you're still writing from a Christian point of view.
>

Yes.

--
Cheryl

[Peter Moylan]

Which is the writer used the indicative, not the subjunctive. It was
Cheetah99218 who changed indicative "art" to subjunctive "exist".

[Percival P. Cassidy]

On 08/09/2016 10:59 PM, Will Parsons wrote:

>>>> I had difficulties with a version of the hymn "Be thou my vision":
>>>>
>>>> | Be thou my vision, o Lord of my heart
>>>> | Be all else but naught to me, save that thou art
>>>>
>>>> To me that seemed to mean "please, Lord, be something, anything
>>>> else but nothing to me, but alas, you are [nothing]!" Suits me,
>>>> but couldn't well be intended, in a hymn.
>>>>
>>> >From reading other translations (the original is Irish, I
>>>> learned), I conclude that "all else" refers to the rest of the
>>>> world. I can read it that way, but then find it hard again to
>>>> interpret the "save" part. Can someone translate to ordinary
>>>> English, please?
>>>
>>> My hymnal reads:
>>>
>>> "Nought be all else to me, save that Thou art"
>>>
>>> which, to me, means
>>>
>>> 'nothing else matters to me except that Thou exist'
>>
>> "existest."
>
> I don't think so - a subjunctive is called for.
> cf. "What's important is that he be there."

I thought about that, but the "art" that it replaces is not subjunctive.

Perce

[grammar...@gmail.com]

Splendid! Now that verse is no longer a grammatical mystery to me. It
seems it's but an exalted incarnation of the "It is what it is" structure.

I say we go with the "that [which]" interpretation for the hymn line too.
In paraphrase, it yields: "May everything that is not you not exist for me."

[sejga...@gmail.com]

Hey all,

I was looking for clarity on that line because I was seeking to translate the hymn from christian-ese into modern day english, just to hear what it could sound like, and here's what I went with.

I chose to put 'Nothing else matters except that “You Are”' for that ambiguous line for a few reasons:

1. "Nothing else matters" is not the same as saying "may nothing else matter to me", but if you're saying "may nothing else matter to me" then you believe that nothing else really matters to you, but that you're aware that you may treat other things like they really do matter to you and you don't want them to. It's not the same sentiment, but both phrases come from the same truth. Also, if you're fond of Metallica then
2. I went for "You Are" rather than "you exist" because:
> it sounds more like the original
> it rhymes with "heart" better
> adding the capital letters is my own hat-tip to the times when the Father and Son call themselves "I Am"; and if "I Am" can refer to God as a name then "You Are" should be able to refer to the name of God as well, when it's spoken by someone who is not "I Am". So you could also read the line as "Nothing else matters, except that (incredible) God (who loves us)", etc, Nothing matters except THAT god. That one. Over there. The one dying for you.

Thank you for your discussion :)
Scott


Be, you, my vision, O Lord of my heart,
Nothing else matters except that “You Are”,
You’re my best thought by day or by night,
Waking or sleeping, your presence my light.

Be, you, my wisdom. Be, you, my true Word;
I ever with you, and you with me, Lord;
You’re my great Father, I’m your true son;
You dwelling in me, and I with you: one.

Be, you, my buckler, my sword for the fight;
Be, you, my dignity, you, my delight,
You, my soul’s shelter, you my high tower;
You raise me heav’nward, O power of my power.

Riches I heed not, nor man’s empty praise;
You’re my inheritance, now and always:
You and you only, first in my heart,
High King of Heaven, my treasure you are.

High King of Heaven, when vict’ry is won
May I reach heaven’s joys, O bright heav’n’s sun!
Heart of my heart, whatever befall
Still be my vision, O ruler of all.

On Tuesday, August 9, 2016 at 9:06:54 PM UTC+1, Oliver Cromm wrote:
> I had difficulties with a version of the hymn "Be thou my vision":
>
> | Be thou my vision, o Lord of my heart
> | Be all else but naught to me, save that thou art
>

> To me that seemed to mean "please, Lord, be something, anything
> else but nothing to me, but alas, you are [nothing]!" Suits me,
> but couldn't well be intended, in a hymn.
>
> From reading other translations (the original is Irish, I
> learned), I conclude that "all else" refers to the rest of the
> world. I can read it that way, but then find it hard again to
> interpret the "save" part. Can someone translate to ordinary
> English, please?
>

[Anton Shepelev]

Scott:

> I was looking for clarity on that line because I
> was seeking to translate the hymn from christian-
> ese into modern day english, just to hear what it
> could sound like, and here's what I went with.

I think it is no more christian-ese and no less En-
glish than KJV.

> I chose to put "Nothing else matters except that

> 'You Are'" for that ambiguous line for a few rea-
> sons:

What comprises that ambiguity?

I think the line

Naught be all else to me, save that Thou art;

means that the God's existence gives meaning the
speaker's life, and that if God did not exist then
everything else would mean nothing to him. Your un-
derstanding seems to differ:

> So you could also read the line as "Nothing else
> matters, except that (incredible) God (who loves
> us)", etc, Nothing matters except THAT god. That
> one. Over there. The one dying for you.

P.S.: Will you please treat the subject field as a
caption of your article rather than its ini-
tial sentence?

--
() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\ http://preview.tinyurl.com/qcy6mjc [archived]

[Anton Shepelev]

I wrote:

> I think the line
>
> Naught be all else to me, save that Thou art;
>
> means that the God's existence gives meaning the

> spaker's life, and that if God did not exist then

> everything else would mean nothing to him.

Omit the article before "God's".

If the meaning expressed above is not the intended
one, then "else" should superfluous: "All is nothing
to me except that You are," for otherwise "else" and
"except" are tautological.

[Jerry Friedman]

On 3/18/17 1:56 PM, Anton Shepelev wrote:
> Scott:
>
>> I was looking for clarity on that line because I
>> was seeking to translate the hymn from christian-
>> ese into modern day english, just to hear what it
>> could sound like, and here's what I went with.
>
> I think it is no more christian-ese and no less En-
> glish than KJV.
>
>> I chose to put "Nothing else matters except that
>> 'You Are'" for that ambiguous line for a few rea-
>> sons:
>
> What comprises that ambiguity?
>
> I think the line
>
> Naught be all else to me, save that Thou art;
>

> means that [] God's existence gives meaning the
> speaker's life,

You want either "gives meaning to the speaker's life" or "gives the
speaker's life meaning".

> and that if God did not exist then
> everything else would mean nothing to him. Your un-
> derstanding seems to differ:

...

"Be" here is subjunctive or optative or whatever you want to call it.
The speaker is expressing a wish about his feelings about God, not
stating a fact.

As I pointed out in the first incarnation of this thread, "that" used to
have the sense "that which" or "what". It was common until the 16th
century, and later archaic and poetic--which is exactly the style of
this hymn. So the line could mean "May everything else be nothing to me
except what You are."

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

On 3/18/17 1:41 PM, sejga...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> I was looking for clarity on that line because I was seeking to translate the hymn from christian-ese into modern day english, just to hear what it could sound like, and here's what I went with.
>
> I chose to put 'Nothing else matters except that “You Are”' for that ambiguous line for a few reasons:
>
> 1. "Nothing else matters" is not the same as saying "may nothing else matter to me", but if you're saying "may nothing else matter to me" then you believe that nothing else really matters to you, but that you're aware that you may treat other things like they really do matter to you and you don't want them to. It's not the same sentiment, but both phrases come from the same truth. Also, if you're fond of Metallica then

I'll just say I like that Metallica song better than any of their others
that I've heard.

> 2. I went for "You Are" rather than "you exist" because:
>> it sounds more like the original
>> it rhymes with "heart" better
>> adding the capital letters is my own hat-tip to the times when the Father and Son call themselves "I Am"; and if "I Am" can refer to God as a name then "You Are" should be able to refer to the name of God as well, when it's spoken by someone who is not "I Am". So you could also read the line as "Nothing else matters, except that (incredible) God (who loves us)", etc, Nothing matters except THAT god. That one. Over there. The one dying for you.

For it to mean that, I think it would have to be "Naught be all gods to
me, save that thou art." I see no suggestion in the lyrics of any other
gods.

> Thank you for your discussion :)
> Scott
>
>
> Be, you, my vision, O Lord of my heart,

I'd say "You be my vision" is more natural.

> Nothing else matters except that “You Are”,
> You’re my best thought by day or by night,
> Waking or sleeping, your presence my light.

...

--
Jerry Friedman

[Anton Shepelev]

Jerry Friedman:

> > I think the line
> >
> > Naught be all else to me, save that Thou art;
> >
> > means that God's existence gives meaning the
> > speaker's life,
>
> You want either "gives meaning to the speaker's
> life" or "gives the speaker's life meaning".

Thanks, it was a mental slip. I wanted the former.

> > and that if God did not exist then verything
> > else would mean nothing to him. Your under-
> > standing seems to differ:

>
> "Be" here is subjunctive or optative or whatever
> you want to call it. The speaker is expressing a
> wish about his feelings about God, not stating a
> fact.

The bare "be" may state a fact as well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_be_dragons

Consider also these sentences from William Morris
and Eric Rucker Eddison:

1. For we were best to make no long delay here;
because, though thou hast slain the King-
dwarf, yet there be others of his kindred, who
swarm in some parts of the wood as the rabbits
in a warren.

2. Yea, of the Bear they be, though there be oth-
er folks of them far and far away to the
northward and eastward, near to the borders of
the sea

3. But, meseemeth, ye who be gathered round the
fire here this evening are less than the whole
tale of the children of the Bear

4. And my heart is afraid for Goldry Bluszco, big
and strong though he be and unconquered in
war;

5. But look to my Lord Gro: I fear he be hurt.

6. Mark the dusky cloak streamed with gold and
lined with blood-red silk: a charmed cloak,
made by the sylphs in forgotten days, bringing
good hap to the wearer, so he be true of heart
and no dastard.

> As I pointed out in the first incarnation of this
> thread, "that" used to have the sense "that which"
> or "what". It was common until the 16th century,

> and later archaic and poetic -- which is exactly

> the style of this hymn.

That may be, but there seem also to be the phrase
"but that", or "save that", which meant "unless",
"if not", "but for":

1. Nor would I have urged thee otherwise, but
that I do throughly fear these Demons, and all
my mind was to take their plotting in reverse.

2. Beshrew me, but that seven days' space seemed
to me but an hour!

3. I would not have come to you in this deep and
dead time of the night but that I knew you no-
ble and the great King, and no amorous sur-
feiter that should deal false with me.

At other times "save that" means simply "except
that", where "that" is a relative pronoun:

1. nor would aught please him save that they
should go forthwith up to the walls with all
their force

2. All was confounded in the dark, and nought
certain, save that the Demons were broken out
from Eshgrar Ogo.

3. but of Juss and Brandoch Daha no certain news,
save that they were not of Spitfire's company,
but were with those against whom Corund went
in person, having fared forth northaway.

which is how I interpret "save that" in the hymn:

1. Everything else is nothing to me except that
You are.

2. Everything else would be nothing to me but for
Your existance.

> So the line could mean "May everything else be
> nothing to me except what You are."

Although my interpretation may be wrong, I dislike
yours, where "else" is superfluous or even tautolog-
ical:

May everything be nothing to me except what You are.

What is "what You are" if not "You"? Aren't you
what you are?

[Jerry Friedman]

"There be" was an idiom (and maybe still is in some dialects for all I
know). The rest are subjunctive, though 4 state(s) a fact, except 2 and
3 which are examples of what you want. However, in the hymn the "be" is
subjunctive.

>> As I pointed out in the first incarnation of this
>> thread, "that" used to have the sense "that which"
>> or "what". It was common until the 16th century,
>> and later archaic and poetic -- which is exactly
>> the style of this hymn.
>
> That may be, but there seem also to be the phrase
> "but that", or "save that", which meant "unless",
> "if not", "but for":
>
> 1. Nor would I have urged thee otherwise, but
> that I do throughly fear these Demons, and all
> my mind was to take their plotting in reverse.
>
> 2. Beshrew me, but that seven days' space seemed
> to me but an hour!
>
> 3. I would not have come to you in this deep and
> dead time of the night but that I knew you no-
> ble and the great King, and no amorous sur-
> feiter that should deal false with me.

None of those are "save that", and anyway that sense doesn't seem
relevant here.

> At other times "save that" means simply "except
> that", where "that" is a relative pronoun:
>
> 1. nor would aught please him save that they
> should go forthwith up to the walls with all
> their force
>
> 2. All was confounded in the dark, and nought
> certain, save that the Demons were broken out
> from Eshgrar Ogo.
>
> 3. but of Juss and Brandoch Daha no certain news,
> save that they were not of Spitfire's company,
> but were with those against whom Corund went
> in person, having fared forth northaway.
>
> which is how I interpret "save that" in the hymn:
>
> 1. Everything else is nothing to me except that
> You are.
>
> 2. Everything else would be nothing to me but for
> Your existance.

That's one of the two interpretations that seem possible to me.

>> So the line could mean "May everything else be
>> nothing to me except what You are."
>
> Although my interpretation may be wrong, I dislike
> yours, where "else" is superfluous or even tautolog-
> ical:
>
> May everything be nothing to me except what You are.
>
> What is "what You are" if not "You"? Aren't you
> what you are?

Yes, that's what I think it might mean. The superfluous words are
needed for the tune.

--
Jerry Friedman

[bebe...@aol.com]

In all these examples of "be" as indicative, the order
is <subject> + "be". Conversely, "be" + <subject> can
apparently only be subjunctive.

[Jerry Friedman]

...

Also, in formal literary English, indicative "be" was far more common in
the plural than in the singular, including in "here be" and "there be"
(except in alterations of "Here be dragons" and maybe other fixed phrases).


--
Jerry Friedman

[Adam Funk]

On 2017-03-20, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> Also, in formal literary English, indicative "be" was far more common in
> the plural than in the singular, including in "here be" and "there be"
> (except in alterations of "Here be dragons" and maybe other fixed phrases).

...even though Latin uses the ordinary equivalent of "are": "hic sunt
dracones/leones".


--
If hard data were the filtering criterion you could fit the entire
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[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 10:15:06 AM UTC-4, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2017-03-20, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
> > Also, in formal literary English, indicative "be" was far more common in
> > the plural than in the singular, including in "here be" and "there be"
> > (except in alterations of "Here be dragons" and maybe other fixed phrases).
>
> ...even though Latin uses the ordinary equivalent of "are": "hic sunt
> dracones/leones".

Do we have actual early maps in English inscribed "Here there be ...,"
or is that a modern fantasy like "Ye Olde Tea Shoppe"?

[Adam Funk]

The latter, at least in English. Wikipedia says there are 2 known
"dracones" examples in Latin, but "leones" was common.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_be_dragons>


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