I wish it stopped raining
Marius Hancu
1. I wish it would stop raining.
2. I wish it stopped raining.
AFAIK, 2 is incorrect.
Does this mean that the backshift in 2 doesn't work as a replacement
of the subjunctive mood form "would stop" in 1?
Any specific reasons for that?
Such replacements seem to work for
"I wish it went"
(in present time):
---
'The world goes very well with me, master,' replied he ; ' I wish it
went as well
with everybody as with me. I am well, thank God ! and health is dearer
to ....
http://tinyurl.com/ygbomxy
---
First, it should be said (I wish it went without saying) that no
racial
implication was intended, by TIME or by the artist.
http://tinyurl.com/ydphkfg
---
"I wish it went on longer," Kelly said, watching someone fly high
above the top
of the T, legs hanging loose. Greg said, "Yeah."
http://tinyurl.com/y8c4xd5
---
---
Thanks.
Marius Hancu
John O'Flaherty
The example (2) you gave doesn't work because, as written, it refers
to a specific future event. The other examples refer to a present
condition that was established sometime in the past. Even the last
example is expressing a wish about a generality; it assumes that this
event will be too short, like others of its type.
If your example referred to a general case, it would be alright:
I wish it stopped raining just on weekends, so we could have more
picnics.
--
John
Jared
> Hello:
>
> 1. I wish it would stop raining.
> 2. I wish it stopped raining.
>
> AFAIK, 2 is incorrect.
>
> Does this mean that the backshift in 2 doesn't work as a replacement
> of the subjunctive mood form "would stop" in 1?
You might say "I wish it opened earlier" on finding a restaurant
closed when you wanted dinner. That means you wish that it opened
earlier all the time, in general, or in similar instances (perhaps
Sundays).
You also might say "I wish it _had_ opened earlier". Today, maybe, you
wish it had opened earlier, so you could eat and then get to a concert
on time.
One statement emphasizes your feeling about a general situation, and
the other emphasizes the particular occurrence.
Django Cat
> On Mar 16, 9:48 pm, Marius Hancu <marius.ha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello:
> >
> > 1. I wish it would stop raining.
> > 2. I wish it stopped raining.
> >
> > AFAIK, 2 is incorrect.
> >
> > Does this mean that the backshift in 2 doesn't work as a replacement
> > of the subjunctive mood form "would stop" in 1?
>
> You might say "I wish it opened earlier" on finding a restaurant
> closed when you wanted dinner. That means you wish that it opened
> earlier all the time, in general, or in similar instances (perhaps
> Sundays).
>
> You also might say "I wish it had opened earlier". Today, maybe, you
> wish it had opened earlier, so you could eat and then get to a concert
> on time.
>
> One statement emphasizes your feeling about a general situation, and
> the other emphasizes the particular occurrence.
... so "I wish it stopped raining, *just occasionally*", works.
DC
--
Eric Walker
> 1. I wish it would stop raining.
> 2. I wish it stopped raining.
>
> AFAIK, 2 is incorrect.
>
> Does this mean that the backshift in 2 doesn't work as a replacement of
> the subjunctive mood form "would stop" in 1?
Yes and no. It would not be a replacement for the subjunctive but an
alternative form of it. Any statement expressing a wish mandates the
optative subjunctive, just as a conditionality ("If...") mandates the
potential subjunctive.
> Such replacements seem to work for
> "I wish it went"
> (in present time):
> ---
> 'I wish it went as well with everybody as with me.'
Normally, the present tense is used in the subjunctive when fulfillment
of a wish--express or implied--seems probable, the past when it does not:
The Lord *have* mercy on us. [present subjunctive]
I wish it *were* not so. [past subjunctive]
Thus, "I wish it *went* as well with everybody as with me," since it is
not a wish likely to be realized. Likewise:
I wish [that] it *would* stop raining. [past = unlikely]
But for the possessor of a magic ring or the like:
I wish [that] it *will* stop raining. [present = likely]
Strive as I may--and perhaps I am overlooking something obvious that
another can supply--I see no reason why "I wish it *stopped* raining"
would be unsound grammar. It sounds very strange, and would fall most
infelicitously on most native speakers' ears, but it seems not to differ
materially from "I wish I *had* wings." The latter is assuredly a proper
subjunctive, duly cast in the past tense to show unlikelihood (or, here,
impossibility). So then, it seems to me, must be the former.
If that be so, then it is merely a matter of the modern form of
expressing the subjunctive through the use of auxiliaries having become
so dominant that the older form often jangles. (It may be noteworthy
that the structure using auxiliaries evolved during a time when the old
subjunctive still had many more morphological distinctions than the few
that remain today, so it was not a reaction to some loss of clear forms
but rather a response to a perceived need for more fluid and powerful
modes of expression.)
Looking back, forms that seem a touch bizarre today were much more
common, and though now rare, remain sound: "I desire you will do no such
thing." Perhaps this is another such.
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker, Owlcroft House
http://owlcroft.com/english/
Marius Hancu
Very interesting.
Thanks.
Marius Hancu
Marius Hancu
Tough subject.
Thanks.
Marius Hancu
Marius Hancu
> > 1. I wish it would stop raining.
> > 2. I wish it stopped raining.
>
> > AFAIK, 2 is incorrect.
>
> > Does this mean that the backshift in 2 doesn't work as a replacement of
> > the subjunctive mood form "would stop" in 1?
>
> Yes and no. It would not be a replacement for the subjunctive but an
> alternative form of it. Any statement expressing a wish mandates the
> optative subjunctive, just as a conditionality ("If...") mandates the
> potential subjunctive.
Could you offer examples of the optative and of the potential
subjunctive, mainly to see what they exactly mean to you?
> > Such replacements seem to work for
> > "I wish it went"
> > (in present time):
> > ---
> > 'I wish it went as well with everybody as with me.'
>
> Normally, the present tense is used in the subjunctive when fulfillment
> of a wish--express or implied--seems probable, the past when it does not:
>
> The Lord *have* mercy on us. [present subjunctive]
>
> I wish it *were* not so. [past subjunctive]
>
> Thus, "I wish it *went* as well with everybody as with me," since it is
> not a wish likely to be realized. Likewise:
>
> I wish [that] it *would* stop raining. [past = unlikely]
>
> But for the possessor of a magic ring or the like:
>
> I wish [that] it *will* stop raining. [present = likely]
Thanks for these clarifications and reinforcements.
> Strive as I may--and perhaps I am overlooking something obvious that
> another can supply--I see no reason why "I wish it *stopped* raining"
> would be unsound grammar. It sounds very strange, and would fall most
> infelicitously on most native speakers' ears, but it seems not to differ
> materially from "I wish I *had* wings." The latter is assuredly a proper
> subjunctive, duly cast in the past tense to show unlikelihood (or, here,
> impossibility). So then, it seems to me, must be the former.
> If that be so, then it is merely a matter of the modern form of
> expressing the subjunctive through the use of auxiliaries having become
> so dominant that the older form often jangles.
The auxiliary in this case being "would/will," right?
>(It may be noteworthy
> that the structure using auxiliaries evolved during a time when the old
> subjunctive still had many more morphological distinctions than the few
> that remain today, so it was not a reaction to some loss of clear forms
> but rather a response to a perceived need for more fluid and powerful
> modes of expression.)
>
> Looking back, forms that seem a touch bizarre today were much more
> common, and though now rare, remain sound: "I desire you will do no such
> thing." Perhaps this is another such.
Very interesting musings and questions.
Thank you very much.
Marius Hancu
Eric Walker
[...]
> Could you offer examples of the optative and of the potential
> subjunctive, mainly to see what they exactly mean to you?
In practice, there is little or no difference between them; those are
simply convenient labels to help one see why a statement calls for the
subjunctive mood. The optative, to quote Curme, "represents the
utterance as something desired or planned"; the potential "represents the
statement, not as an actual fact, but only as a conception of the mind."
There are niceties associated with each form, such as how the relative
strength of a directive is modulated by the choice of auxiliary ("You
shall do as I say!"), or by the degree of modesty of an assertion ("This
would seem to confirm his statement"), but no real difference in sheer
grammar.
[...]
>> If that be so, then it is merely a matter of the modern form of
>> expressing the subjunctive through the use of auxiliaries having become
>> so dominant that the older form often jangles.
>
> The auxiliary in this case being "would/will," right?
Just so.
Robert Bannister
> Hello:
>
> 1. I wish it would stop raining.
> 2. I wish it stopped raining.
>
> AFAIK, 2 is incorrect.
>
> Does this mean that the backshift in 2 doesn't work as a replacement
> of the subjunctive mood form "would stop" in 1?
>
> Any specific reasons for that?
My take is that you can't use a past tense for a sort of future meaning.
--
Rob Bannister
Eric Walker
[...]
> My take is that you can't use a past tense for a sort of future meaning.
Tenses in the subjunctive are not much related to temporality. Compare:
I wish it stopped raining.
I wish I had wings.
No noticeable difference, except one sounds weird.
Robert Bannister
> On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 09:25:06 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> My take is that you can't use a past tense for a sort of future meaning.
>
> Tenses in the subjunctive are not much related to temporality. Compare:
>
> I wish it stopped raining.
>
> I wish I had wings.
>
> No noticeable difference, except one sounds weird.
>
>
You mentioned the case of "had" earlier and I was rather struck by it.
Perhaps the reason "stopped" appears odd is that in this "wishing"
construction, we are only used to the subjunctives "had, were, would,
could, might" and maybe a couple of others that I've missed. I would
certainly perceive "stopped" or most other past forms as being
subjunctives in other subjunctive constructions.
--
Rob Bannister