H....the 6th vowel?
Carlos M. Nash
Gerard Kane wrote:
>
> Why is the letter H at the beginning of a word treated as if it`s a
> vowel? e.g. an historic moment
Well, it kind of depends on how you define a vowel. Vowels
have the propeties of being [- obstruent] and/or [+ continuent].
It is just one of the fuzzy boundaries between vowels and
consonants. I am sure there other ways to define them.
Carlos M. Nash
Rice University
car...@rice.edu
Carlos M. Nash
Carlos M. Nash
Carlos M. Nash
Ralph M Jones
> Gerard Kane wrote:
> >
> > Why is the letter H at the beginning of a word treated as if it`s a
> > vowel? e.g. an historic moment
I wouldn't say that it's treated as a vowel. I'd say that it's treated
as if it were not there. And it isn't when it's pronounced. My question
would relate to the difference between "history" and "historic" as in "a
history book" and "an historic event".
Curtis Cameron
Simon R. Hughes wrote:
>
> Sometimes people have tended to generalise about the use of silent
> "h". It has been fashionable to drop "h" when it appears at the
> beginning of any word. I don't know how things stand at the moment.
>
> "an hôtel", "an human", "an historic moment", etc.
People who pronounce these words without an aspirated H would still say
"a human". I think they would pronounce it with the same initial sound
that I use for "united", which is really a consonant sound, therefore
the article "a" would apply.
Now here's my quesion - would they say "an history"?
-Curtis Cameron
Lars Eighner
In our last episode <338E01...@cableinet.co.uk>,
the lovely and talented Gerard Kane <maj...@cableinet.co.uk>
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
|Why is the letter H at the beginning of a word treated as if it`s a
|vowel? e.g. an historic moment
The letter H is never treated as a vowel. However, sometimes is it not
pronounced, and as the rule for "a" or "an" depends upon pronunciation,
sometime H is preceded by "a" and sometimes by "an":
a hotel
an honor.
Several words, such as "humble" and "herb" are pronounced differently
by different speakers and so take "a" or "an" depending upon the speaker.
In the case of "historic," some people who would pronounce the H in
"history" (making it "a history") either omit the H sound or pronounce
it very minimally when the stress moves to the second syllable. For this
reason some people say (and write) "an historic occasion," "an historically
accurate account," "an historian," and so forth.
--
Lars Eighner= http://www.io.com/%7Eeighner = http://www.crl.com/%7Eeighner =
12550 Vista View #302 (210)979-7124 eig...@crl.com eig...@io.com ==
San Antonio TX 78231 alt.books.lars-eighner "At better ISPs everywhere"=
============================================================================
T. Shannon Gilvary
On 2 Jun 1997 16:26:37 GMT, heel...@aol.com (HeelsFans) wrote:
>Actually, it should be "a historic moment" as the "h" is pronounced. "An"
>is the correct article when the "h" is silent. The use of "a" and "an" is
>determined by the noun begins with a vowel or consonant sound, not whether
>it begins with a vowel or consonant. The following would be correct:
>
>a cat, an apple, a historian, a union, an hour
I was always taught to say "an" if the "h" is pronounced but not in
the first syllable of the word. eg "an hist-OR-i-an" but "a
HIST-o-ry".
Shannon
Don M Chaffee
Curtis Cameron <cur...@remove.airmail.net> writes:
>-Curtis Cameron
Without thinking about it a lot, my guess is that the degree of
"consonance" of "h" has more to do with whether that aforementioned first
syllable is an emphasized one (it is in history, but not in historic).
I've often found that both written and spoken use of "a" or "an" before a
word beginning with "h" to be culturally-based. But I may revise my
thinking.
Don Chaffee
Emily K. Gard
Gerard Kane wrote:
>
> Why is the letter H at the beginning of a word treated as if it`s a
> vowel? e.g. an historic moment
I was under the impression that H is not treated as a vowel but rather
because it is treated as a silent letter sometimes, as in an honour
being pronounced an onour, some people treat it this way even when it is
pronounced. I could however be wrong. It is interesting that it is now
always treated as a vowel at the beginning of the word you could say a
help rather than an help. The position of the word in the sentance may
be involved too because it would be a history but an historic moment
Emily
Gard
Anthony Argyriou
shughes@sn*spam-blok*.no (Simon R. Hughes) replied to:
> Gerard Kane<maj...@cableinet.co.uk> who scribbled:
>
>> Why is the letter H at the beginning of a word treated as if it`s a
>> vowel? e.g. an historic moment
>
>have silent "h". Thus when choosing an article, you choose "an" if you
>don't pronounce the "h". The most famous case of this is "an hôtel"
>
>Other words have a pronounced "h" at the beginning. There the article
>should be "a".
>Sometimes people have tended to generalise about the use of silent
>"h". It has been fashionable to drop "h" when it appears at the
>beginning of any word. I don't know how things stand at the moment.
>
>"an hôtel", "an human", "an historic moment", etc.
Since the use of "a" vs "an" is based on pronunciation, correct use
is regionally variable. As I understand, British use tends to silence
the "H"s, as do some New England and northeastern US upper-class
accents. Therefore, in those areas, and areas under their cultural
influence, "an historical" is correct. In areas where the initial "h"
in words is always pronounced, "a historical", "a hotel", etc. are
correct.
Anthony Argyriou
Alec Frank
My lay theory: forget about H; W and Y are actually, always vowels. If
you pronounce the W in word containing a "consonant" W (e.g., "win") as
if it were the double O in "moon" and say the word quickly and smoothly,
you will in fact pronounce the word as we are accustomed to hearing it.
The parallel effect can be obtained by pronouncing the "consonant" Y in
a word (e.g., "yes") like the double E in "feet."
A, E, I, O, U, and *always* Y and W!
Alec
afr...@loop.com
M. Murray
Gary Williams, Business Services Accounting (will...@ahecas.ahec.edu) wrote:
: In article <339351...@hal-pc.org>, Ralph M Jones <rmj...@hal-pc.org>
: writes:
:
: > My question would relate to the difference between "history" and "historic"
: Might it be that it is easy not to aspirate an unaccented initial syllable; not
: so easy an accented one?
Almost. In fact it is difficult (at least for me) to say "a historic"
where the h is aspirated and the first syllable of "historic" is
unstressed; it requires a glottal stop after the a. Whereas "a history",
with a stressed first syllable is much easier.
Try it.
--
Martin Murray :: School of Chemistry, Bristol University, BS8 1TS, England
Gerry Harbison
Anthony Argyriou wrote:
> Since the use of "a" vs "an" is based on pronunciation, correct use
> is regionally variable. As I understand, British use tends to silence
> the "H"s, as do some New England and northeastern US upper-class
> accents.
I would say that most British dialects pronounce the 'h' in historical,
Cockney being the most obvious exception. It might be an idiosyncrasy of
my upbringing, but I never encountered the usage 'an historical', 'an
herb', etc. until I came to the US. They still sound awful to me.
Therefore, in those areas, and areas under their cultural
> influence, "an historical" is correct. In areas where the initial "h"
> in words is always pronounced, "a historical", "a hotel", etc. are
> correct.
It would make sense.
(Take two aspirates and call me in the morning.)
Simon R. Hughes
On Wed, 04 Jun 1997 11:26:11 -0700, Alec Frank <afr...@loop.com>
scribbled:
The feature that phonologically categorises a sound as a vowel is its
ability to "carry" a syllable (a complicated issue, the syllable). The
sounds of "w" & "y" never do so and therefore cannot be classed as
vowels. Orthography can never do the same job.
Incidentally, according to a man called Charles Kreidler, English has
up to 24 vowel sounds--including those sometimes represented by "w" &
"y".
===
+ From the digits of Simon R. Hughes + mailto:shu...@sn.no +
+ Headers changed to prevent spamming. +
+ To reply, remove *spam-blok* from address line. +
+ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1194/index.html +
FranCurcio
In article <VAukzAwZ...@crl.com>, eig...@crl.com (Lars Eighner)
writes:
>
>In the case of "historic," some people who would pronounce the H in
>"history" (making it "a history") either omit the H sound or pronounce
>it very minimally when the stress moves to the second syllable. For this
>reason some people say (and write) "an historic occasion," "an
historically
>accurate account," "an historian," and so forth.
>
>
MEU2 has it: "*an* was formerly usual before an unaccented syllable
beginning with *h* ...(an historian...)...But now that the *h* is
pronounced...."
The AP Stylebook clearly states "a historic" as the preferred rendering.
I learned the old style rule that MEU2 declared "formerly" back in 1965
and it is still with me because I still do not pronounce the *h* in
historic/historian. I do in history, so a history book sounds and looks OK
to me. *But*
historic sounds to me <iz TOUR ik>
historian sounds <iz TOUR ian>
I think with those sounds and write from those sounds. I always use *an* -
my AP trained editors *always* change the *an* to *a* -
The AmEnglish winning rule is a historian, a historic - and that was very
hard for me to type!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Frank A. Curcio = FranC...@aol.com
Local History; Maps; Roads; Pop Culture; Folklore
"Always look happy & cheerful. Enjoy life with the one you love" Ecc 9:8
John Davies
In article <VAukzAwZ...@crl.com>, Lars Eighner <eig...@crl.com>
writes
>In the case of "historic," some people who would pronounce the H in
>"history" (making it "a history") either omit the H sound or pronounce
>it very minimally when the stress moves to the second syllable. For this
>reason some people say (and write) "an historic occasion," "an historically
>accurate account," "an historian," and so forth.
>
affectation: so far as I can recall, I've always spoken that way.
By coincidence, BBC television showed a programme last night containing
an extract from a filmed interview with Bertrand Russell, some time in
the 1960s when he was already in his 90s: he also said "an historic..."
Russell was the son of a Viscount, I'm the son of a miner, so we can be
reasonably sure that it is a long-established and widely accepted usage
in Britain.
--
John Davies (jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk)
On that of which one cannot speak, one must remain silent. (Wittgenstein)
Gwen Lenker
Geoff Butler <ge...@gbutler.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<r6a3+OAf...@gbutler.demon.co.uk>...
> Alec Frank <afr...@loop.com> wrote:
[...]
> >
> >A, E, I, O, U, and *always* Y and W!
>
Not if he's American. We generally don't use the word "*o**o***".
Instead, we'd probably say "*u****i*".
Curtis Cameron
FranCurcio wrote:
>
> to me. *But*
> historic sounds to me <iz TOUR ik>
> historian sounds <iz TOUR ian>
You and I pronounce these words differently in three ways!
And I think I've never actually heard anyone say ANY of the three
as you do.
1. I aspirate the "h".
2. I pronounce the "s" as an "s", not as a "z".
3. I pronounce the "o" as long, not as the "ou" combination.
I think the IPA would be /his`torik/ and /his`tori@n/.
My impression is that non-aspiration of initial h's in America is pretty
much confined to the Boston area. Is this correct?
-Curtis Cameron
Alec Frank
[SNIP]
> > >A, E, I, O, U, and *always* Y and W!
> >
> > Oh? Do you say "an win"? "an yes"? "an troll"? "an load of *o**o***"?
>
Hmmm, guess no one got my point -- a bit of tongue-in-cheek. (But it
does seem a credible -- though perhaps false -- theory that Y & W
perhaps began life as vowels.)
For the record, I don't say "an win," or "an yes," or, for that matter,
"an use," or "an Ouija Board." (I guess your implied rule -- sarcasm
appreciated -- has exceptions.) And maybe I'm a dolt, but I don't get
the joke -- sarcasm assumed -- with "an troll," or with "an load of
*o**o***."
Does "Ouija" mean the saying should be "A, E, I, and sometimes O, U, Y,
and W"?
K. Edgcombe
In article <19970605204...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
HeelsFans <heel...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Are there actually places in which history is pronounced with the "h" and
>historical is not?
Yes.
Katy
Geoff Butler
Alec Frank <afr...@loop.com> wrote:
>[SNIP]
>
>> > >A, E, I, O, U, and *always* Y and W!
>> >
>> > Oh? Do you say "an win"? "an yes"? "an troll"? "an load of *o**o***"?
>>
>
>Hmmm, guess no one got my point -- a bit of tongue-in-cheek. (But it
>does seem a credible -- though perhaps false -- theory that Y & W
>perhaps began life as vowels.)
>
>For the record, I don't say "an win," or "an yes," or, for that matter,
>"an use," or "an Ouija Board." (I guess your implied rule -- sarcasm
>appreciated -- has exceptions.) And maybe I'm a dolt, but I don't get
>the joke -- sarcasm assumed -- with "an troll," or with "an load of
>*o**o***."
Yep, you're absolutely right. Here's a clue: Vowels are about sounds,
not letters.
-ler
Dr. Peter Kittel
In article <3397A1...@loop.com> Alec Frank <afr...@loop.com> writes:
>
>> > >A, E, I, O, U, and *always* Y and W!
>> >
>> > Oh? Do you say "an win"? "an yes"? "an troll"? "an load of *o**o***"?
>
>"an use," or "an Ouija Board."
Ok, but using "a" or "an" before a word are probably not the only
condition for being a vowel or not. For me, the Y in "system" acts
definitely as a vowel.
> (I guess your implied rule -- sarcasm
>appreciated -- has exceptions.)
Indeed :-).
--
Best Regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // http://www.pios.de
Private Site in Frankfurt, Germany \X/ office: pet...@pios.de
Geoff Butler
"Dr. Peter Kittel" <pet...@combo.ganesha.com> wrote:
>In article <3397A1...@loop.com> Alec Frank <afr...@loop.com> writes:
>>
>>> > >A, E, I, O, U, and *always* Y and W!
>>> >
>>> > Oh? Do you say "an win"? "an yes"? "an troll"? "an load of *o**o***"?
>>
>>For the record, I don't say "an win," or "an yes," or, for that matter,
>>"an use," or "an Ouija Board."
>
>Ok, but using "a" or "an" before a word are probably not the only
>condition for being a vowel or not. For me, the Y in "system" acts
>definitely as a vowel.
I can hardly believe I'm getting into this argument.
- Use of "a" or "an" is not a condition for anything being a vowel, it's
a symptom. If a word begins with a vowel ***sound***, the indefinite
article preceding it is "an". If it doesn't, it's "a".
- Of course the "y" in "system" represents a vowel ***sound***, or acts
as a vowel if you prefer. This sound is not the same sound as the sound
that the "y" in "yes" sounds like. It's a different sound. The letter
"y" represents more than one sound (no surprise there, then). "A yawn"
/@ jOn/; "A yak" /@ jak/; "An ypsilon" /@n IpsIlAn/ "An Yggdrasil" /@n
IgdrasIl/.
- "Y" sometimes acts as a vowel, sometimes not. It depends (need I say
it?) on the sound that it represents.
- "A", "E", "I", "O", "U" almost always represent vowel sounds. That's
why they're often called "the vowels".
There are plenty of exceptions, of which "Ouija" is one. The sound at
the beginning is consonantal, /widZ@/, so it's "a Ouija". "Ou"
representing [w] is a French thing.
The first letter of "Yeltsin" in Russian is an "E" of some sort: /jE/,
/ja/ and /ju/ are single letters in the Cyrillic script. I've seen his
name spelt "Eltsin" in the past, but nevertheless, it's "a Eltsin of a
hangover" provided you pronounce it correctly as /@ jEltsIn .../.
(I wrote that unlikely example, so I'll leave it there, but I've just
remembered "a ewe", /@ yu/.)
Initial "u" often represents /ju/, especially in BrE. When it does, it's
preceded by "a", when not, "an". "A unicorn" /@ junIkArn/. "An umble"
/@n umbl/.
It depends (need I say it?) on the sound that they represent.
- The semivowels and liquids are much more interesting to discuss,
because the categorisation into "vowel" and "consonant" starts to look
decidedly dubious. They're about sound, too.
>> (I guess your implied rule -- sarcasm
>>appreciated -- has exceptions.)
>
>Indeed :-).
"My" implied rule has no exceptions: your inference must be incorrect.
Here is "my" rule, explicitly: Vowels are about sound, not spelling.
Sheesh, trolls are supposed to be fun.
-ler
Anandashankar Mazumdar
>Gary Williams, Business Services Accounting (will...@ahecas.ahec.edu) wrote:
>: In article <339351...@hal-pc.org>, Ralph M Jones <rmj...@hal-pc.org>
>: writes:
>:
>: > My question would relate to the difference between "history" and "historic"
>: > as in "a history book" and "an historic event".
I'm assuming that most of the replies to
this question have been from
non-Americans. Here in the U.S., most
people would always use "a" before a
non-silent "h": "a history book," "a historic
event."
Those who affect to say "an historic" in the
U.S.
are usually doing so in formal, public
situations >: Might it be that it is easy not to
aspirate an unaccented initial syllable; not
>: so easy an accented one?
>
>Almost. In fact it is difficult (at least for me) to say "a historic"
>where the h is aspirated and the first syllable of "historic" is
>unstressed; it requires a glottal stop after the a. Whereas "a history",
>with a stressed first syllable is much easier.
>
>Try it.
I did. It's easy.
Ananda
P.S.: Please excuse me if you're receiving
multiple copies or postings.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Anandashankar Mazumdar
In article
<3397A1...@loop.com>,
afr...@loop.com wrote:
>For the record, I don't say "an win," or "an yes," or, for that matter,
>"an use," or "an Ouija Board." (I guess your implied rule -- sarcasm
>appreciated -- has exceptions.) And maybe I'm a dolt, but I don't get
>the joke -- sarcasm assumed -- with "an troll," or with "an load of
>*o**o***."
>
>Does "Ouija" mean the saying should be "A, E, I, and sometimes O, U, Y,
>and W"?
The line "A, E, I, O, U, and sometimes
Y" or any alternative version you're
proposing have nothing to do with "a"
and "an." Forget letters altogether. The
key is pronunciation: Use "an" before
vowel _sounds_. If we agree for the
moment that /w/ and /j/ are treated as
consonant sounds, then "Ouija" and
"use" (/widZ@/ and /jus/) don't start with
vowel sounds, so they are consistent
with the rule.
Ananda
(Apologies if you're receiving multliple
copies.)
Hideto Akiyama
Gerard S. Harbison <ge...@chem-gharbison.unl.edu> wrote in article
<33971F...@chem-gharbison.unl.edu>...
> Gary Williams, Business Services Accounting wrote:
>
> > Might it be that it is easy not to aspirate an unaccented initial
syllable; not
> > so easy an accented one?
>
aspirate
> an unaccented initial syllable. However, this surely can't be the case
with
> Simon Hughes' 'an hammer'.
In this thread and another (W.Y...the 6th & 7th vowels) thread,
A.Frank said forget about "H".
S.Hughes said about 24 vowels in which "H" is not included.
Professor P.ROACH of U. of Reading said
in his book "ENGLISH PHONETICS AND PHONOLOGY,CHAPTER 6" that "H" is
phonetically a vowel , and phonologically a consonant.
C.M.Nash called it fuzzy.
G.Williams is saying about aspiration. Does the aspiration define
"H" sound?
And now G.S.Harbison posted.
Does someone answer this question? How do you utter true "H"
sound.?
H.A.
Anandashankar Mazumdar
In article
<01bc74dc$da95aa80$LocalH
ost@zzz>, tei...@zzz.or.jp
wrote:
> Does someone answer this question? How do you utter true "H"
>sound.?
/h/
Ananda
(Apologies for multiple copies
or short line lengths)
Richard Leach
Yes again.
Returning to the (h)otel, I once heard an "older woman" in a BBC play say of a
young man "I haven't had a young man round here who says 'otel for a long
time". She said it with approval. It's possible to rationalize this by
pretending it's a French word, the English being "inn".
That ornament of the English stage Sir John Gueilgud prefers 'otel, 'umor.
--
Richard A Leach ri...@richux.demon.co.uk|Use doors, not window$. Free software.
Adrian Tan
Hideto Akiyama wrote:
[snip]
> G.Williams is saying about aspiration. Does the aspiration define
> "H" sound?
[snip]
> Does someone answer this question? How do you utter true "H"
> sound.?
It's a "glottal fricative". (Linguists, feel free to punch me out here).
The "'h' sound" is a type of "aspiration", but stops can also be
aspirated.
Donna Richoux
Richard Leach <ri...@richux.demon.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]> Returning to the (h)otel, I once heard an "older woman" in a BBC
play say of a
> young man "I haven't had a young man round here who says 'otel for a long
> time". She said it with approval. It's possible to rationalize this by
> pretending it's a French word, the English being "inn".
>
> That ornament of the English stage Sir John Gueilgud prefers 'otel, 'umor.
I happened to notice this one yesterday, in a 1934 English novel by
Angela Thirkell called "The Demon in the House":
"I thought we would go to Barchester and have lunch at an hotel for a
treat," said Laura, "and then see the cathedral."
Angela Thirkell is quite careful with language and pokes merciless fun
at her characters who make errors through ignorance or fake gentility.
There is no indication here of anything except ordinary, standard usage
in England, 1934.
By the way, I said "pokes fun at" -- do you UKers have that phrase among
your precious few meanings of "poke"? Or can you only "make fun of"?
Best wishes --- Donna Richoux
Markus Laker
tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux):
> By the way, I said "pokes fun at" -- do you UKers have that phrase among
> your precious few meanings of "poke"? Or can you only "make fun of"?
We can do either. I'm not aware that poking fun at people is an
American innovation; if it is, it must be an *old* innovation (so to
speak).
Markus Laker.
--
My newsfeed is dropping messages again.
*Please* send an emailed copy of any reply.
MMG
y in "by" is a vowel (ie. the long i)
w in "we is a vowel (ie the oo sound)
wh in where (ie again, the oo sound)
none of these are usually aspirated.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MMG
Colin Fine
In article <3395e9dc...@news.sn.no>, "Simon R. Hughes"
<shughes@sn*spam-blok*.no> writes
[snip]
>I saw this one today:
>
> Judges 4:21 (AV)
> "Then Jael Heber's wife took a nail
> of the tent, and took _an_hammer_
> in her hand, and went softly unto him,
> and smote the nail into his temples,
> and fastened it into the ground: for
> he was fast asleep and weary. So he died."
>
>This reflects 17th century pronunciation, but it shows that the trend
>is long established. "Hammer" is a good old Anglo-Saxon word, stressed
>on the first syllable and the "H" is dropped. This is also an example
>from a standard dialect.
Your conclusion does not follow. Two possibilities that occur to me are:
1) The spelling is conventional and does not represent current
pronunciation.
2) The spelling is representative, but fashion dictates the use of 'an'
before 'h' whether 'h' is sounded or not.
I have no evidence for either of these, but they are at least possible.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Colin Fine 66 High Ash, Shipley, W Yorks. BD18 1NE, UK |
| Tel: 01274 592696/0976 436109 e-mail: co...@kindness.demon.co.uk |
| "Please don't help me. I need to learn to walk by myself. |
| Only this - remind me when I won't." -K.B.Brown |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Simon R. Hughes
On Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:50:25 +0100, Colin Fine
<co...@kindness.demon.co.uk> scribbled:
> In article <3395e9dc...@news.sn.no>, "Simon R. Hughes"
> <shughes@sn*spam-blok*.no> writes
> [snip]
>
> >I saw this one today:
> >
> > Judges 4:21 (AV)
> > "Then Jael Heber's wife took a nail
> > of the tent, and took _an_hammer_
> > in her hand, and went softly unto him,
> > and smote the nail into his temples,
> > and fastened it into the ground: for
> > he was fast asleep and weary. So he died."
> >
> >This reflects 17th century pronunciation, but it shows that the trend
> >is long established. "Hammer" is a good old Anglo-Saxon word, stressed
> >on the first syllable and the "H" is dropped. This is also an example
> >from a standard dialect.
>
> Your conclusion does not follow. Two possibilities that occur to me are:
> 1) The spelling is conventional and does not represent current
> pronunciation.
>
> 2) The spelling is representative, but fashion dictates the use of 'an'
> before 'h' whether 'h' is sounded or not.
>
> I have no evidence for either of these, but they are at least possible.
The conclusion that I made was that the dropping of "H" is long
established. Today we should NEVER write "an" unless we pronounce the
following word with an initial vowel (sound--not letter). "an HMO",
"an LCD". Back in the 17th century (1611 for the AV/KJV), spelling was
only just becoming standardised and reflected pronunciation much more
than it does today. I would conclude that the example that I gave also
reflects the pronunciation of the period.
It has been conjectured that fashion did influence the written
language of the early modern English period (please don't ask by whom,
I'd have to read everything again), but the theories are not generally
accepted (this is supposed to be science and the truth doesn't
matter--only what is generally accepted).
Aaron J. Dinkin
"Fashion" was probably a poor choice of words for Colin. What he probably
meant is that, while the /h/ may have been pronounced, the English of that
day required use of "an" before any vowel _or /h/_. I believe this is the
theory that is supported by etymology. (If there had been no /h/ in "an
hand", for instance, which is probably attested before Chaucer, the /h/
would probably have dropped from the spelling as well back then and never
made its way back into pronunciation.)
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Donna Richoux
Richard Leach <ri...@richux.demon.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]
> Returning to the (h)otel, I once heard an "older woman" in a BBC play say of a
> young man "I haven't had a young man round here who says 'otel for a long
> time". She said it with approval. It's possible to rationalize this by
> pretending it's a French word, the English being "inn".
>
> That ornament of the English stage Sir John Gueilgud prefers 'otel, 'umor.
I just have to report anothing sighting of "an h-" before an unaccented
syllable. On "Star Trek: Voyager" last night, Captain Janeway said, "Is
it an hallucination?"
There's no way of knowing if that is the preference of the actress or
the scriptwriter. Checking the Web, I see that Kate Mulgrew was born in
1955 in Iowa and raised in Dubuque, in case that matters.
Simon R. Hughes
On Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:20:27 GMT, shughes@sn*spam-blok*.no (Simon R.
Hughes) scribbled:
[snippety snip]
>
> It has been conjectured that fashion did influence the written
> language of the early modern English period (please don't ask by whom,
> I'd have to read everything again), but the theories are not generally
> accepted (this is supposed to be science and the truth doesn't
> matter--only what is generally accepted).
Methinks that was rather clumsily said. I should have said that the
theories of fashion dictating early modern English usage are not
generally accepted in all cases. I haven't actually read anything
about "H" and the definate article. (Strange, I expected some flames
on this yesterday!)
Mike Ford
On Tue, 17 Jun 1997 16:27:24 GMT, shughes@sn*spam-blok*.no (Simon R.
Hughes) wrote:
>about "H" and the definate article. (Strange, I expected some flames
>on this yesterday!)
OK, quite happy to flame you for misspelling "definite". Will that do?
----
Mike Ford m...@mcgoff.karoo.co.uk
Leeds, UK
William R. Ward
t...@monmouth.com.NO.JUNK.EMAIL (T. Shannon Gilvary) writes:
> On 2 Jun 1997 16:26:37 GMT, heel...@aol.com (HeelsFans) wrote:
>
> >Actually, it should be "a historic moment" as the "h" is pronounced. "An"
> >is the correct article when the "h" is silent. The use of "a" and "an" is
> >determined by the noun begins with a vowel or consonant sound, not whether
> >it begins with a vowel or consonant. The following would be correct:
> >
> >a cat, an apple, a historian, a union, an hour
>
> I was always taught to say "an" if the "h" is pronounced but not in
> the first syllable of the word. eg "an hist-OR-i-an" but "a
> HIST-o-ry".
Huh? In "historian" the "h" *IS* in the first syllable of the word.
Did you mean when the emphasis was not in the first syllable of the
word?
My theory is that some people observed some upper class brits writing
"an historian" (since they don't pronounce the "h") and figured that
was the proper way to do it since the stuffy upper class brits did it
that way. Thus "an historian" with a pronounced "h" became trendy in
the US, where we *do* pronounce the "h". Then someone came up with a
rule about emphasis on the first syllable to rationalize it.
Test: do you say "an herm-APH-ro-dite"? If so, then I'll believe you
about your rule, but I doubt you do. Think of other words starting
with "h" that don't have the accent on the first syllable. Do you
really say "an" there? I doubt it. The only situation I know of
where poeple do this is "historian" and (sometimes) related words.
--Bill.
--
William R Ward Bay View Consulting http://www.bayview.com/~hermit/
her...@bayview.com 1803 Mission St. #339 voicemail +1 408/479-4072
her...@cats.ucsc.edu Santa Cruz CA 95060 USA pager +1 408/458-8862