flip-flopper at the ADS
retrosorter
2004 "word of the year" by the American Dialect Society. Is this in
any way a new term? It seems to me that equivocators have been called
"flip-floppers" for quite a long time. Can anyone confitrm this?
Martin Ambuhl
> I noticed that flip-flopper meaning a waffler was the runner-up as the
> 2004 "word of the year" by the American Dialect Society. Is this in
> any way a new term?
It is not in any way a new term. That hardly is disqualifying for "word
of the year."
retrosorter
By that logic why not make "tsunami" the word of the year? Yet this
word which devastated millions wasn't even nominated. Do words only
have resonance insofar on how they impact Americans?
Tony Cooper
wrote:
The word "tsunami" wasn't in the news all that much until the last
week of December, 2004. The list is for 2004. By contrast,
"flip-flop" (and variations) was in the news during the whole of 2004.
There's no emphasis on the importance of the word, or the effects of
the meaning of the word, in the list. It's just a list of words that
bombarded the public's eye and ear in 2004.
You did notice that the list was published by the American Dialect
Society, didn't you?
Areff
> On 15 Jan 2005 12:19:02 -0800, "retrosorter" <hric...@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
>>By that logic why not make "tsunami" the word of the year? Yet this
>>word which devastated millions wasn't even nominated.
I don't think the *word* devastated millions.
BTW, one of the local newspapers today has this headline:
Images of Titan Are Like An Infant Earth
I'm like, huh?
> The word "tsunami" wasn't in the news all that much until the last
> week of December, 2004. The list is for 2004. By contrast,
> "flip-flop" (and variations) was in the news during the whole of 2004.
>
> There's no emphasis on the importance of the word, or the effects of
> the meaning of the word, in the list. It's just a list of words that
> bombarded the public's eye and ear in 2004.
>
> You did notice that the list was published by the American Dialect
> Society, didn't you?
I don't really think the world is yet closely-knit enough in any
linguistic sense for it to be useful to list words of the year for the
whole world. Even if you consider the Anglophone societies, a word of the
year in one country isn't likely to be that relevant for another country.
--
Steny '08!
Tony Cooper
>Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On 15 Jan 2005 12:19:02 -0800, "retrosorter" <hric...@sympatico.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>By that logic why not make "tsunami" the word of the year? Yet this
>>>word which devastated millions wasn't even nominated.
>
>I don't think the *word* devastated millions.
Sloppy attribution, Areff. "Retrosorter" wrote the above.
Areff
> On 15 Jan 2005 21:13:03 GMT, Areff <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> On 15 Jan 2005 12:19:02 -0800, "retrosorter" <hric...@sympatico.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>By that logic why not make "tsunami" the word of the year? Yet this
>>>>word which devastated millions wasn't even nominated.
>>
>>I don't think the *word* devastated millions.
>
> Sloppy attribution, Areff. "Retrosorter" wrote the above.
Straight question TTPG: Was my attribution there really "sloppy"? Isn't
it clear that retrosorter wrote the substantive remark and that Coop was
quoting retrosorter?
--
Steny '08!
Martin Ambuhl
Damn right. And only those 'Merkins who have no relatives living or
visiting Southern Asia. Why make George Bush person-of-the-year? Who
gives a shit? And why are you posting with software that munges quoted
text [restored]?
retrosorter
You did notice that the language is called English not American, didn't
yoü?
Martin Ambuhl
> Tony Cooper wrote:
>>You did notice that the list was published by the American Dialect
>>Society, didn't you?
>
> You did notice that the language is called English not American, didn't
> yoü?
Nothing in your original post (pasted below) says that the WotY is the
"English" Word of the Year. To the contrary, it suggests that it is
what the American Dialect Society considers WotY. There is no
constraint on ADS to pick "Word of the last week of 2004 according to
retrosorter's version of the language, ignoring both the the other 51
weeks of the year and the subject area of the ADS."
> I noticed that flip-flopper meaning a waffler was the runner-up as the
> 2004 "word of the year" by the American Dialect Society. Is this in
retrosorter
I just think it is worth recognizing that American English is but one
of the many variety of Englishes in the world. This might lead to less
Americentrism than the choice for the "word of the year" selected by
the American Dialect Society in theie inaugural selection in 1990 - the
eminently forgettable "bushlips." In five years time this year's
selection as word of the year "red state, blue state, purple state"
will also seem rather hackneyed.
retrosorter
logical positivism.
Sara Lorimer
> I just think it is worth recognizing that American English is but one
> of the many variety of Englishes in the world. This might lead to less
> Americentrism than the choice for the "word of the year" selected by
> the American Dialect Society in theie inaugural selection in 1990 - the
> eminently forgettable "bushlips."
You're condemning the American Dialect Society for "Americentrism"?
--
SML
Tony Cooper
wrote:
I don't think you give us credit for trying. We make every effort
possible to confine Americentricism to America. We try to keep all
news coverage about things like the ADS's pronouncement of the word of
the year, the World Series, football using an oblong ball and a
100-yard long field, and similar subjects under a news embargo.
Unfortunately, we can't control the Canadian press (although we're
working on it) and they keep leaking the stories. If we could just
get Canada to ignore us, it would make it easier for everyone.
We've successfully embargoed all news about professional hockey. As I
understand it, the Canadians are under the impression that
professional hockey is no longer being played - and played better - in
Tampa Bay, New Jersey, or Detroit. In actuality, the games continue
and we've renamed the ultimate prize as the "Uncle Sam Cup".
We are currently working on an international agreement wherein
journalism students at Carleton, Concordia, and Ryerson will be taught
that Canada and Mexico have a common border and that "North America"
will be called "North Continent" in future. McGill University students
will continue to be taught that the United States is part of their
continent, but only if they agree to carry protest signs written in
English.
We hope that you appreciate our efforts.
retrosorter
Now Sara, please don't get your American dander up. I think that just
as the pre-eminent dictionary in the world -the OED tries to carry
words from all the varieties of English and not just British English,
that it is not that much to ask that the ADS realizes that other forms
of English exist other than American English. Heck, even the American
Heritage Dictionary covers some of them.
Sara Lorimer
> Sara Lorimer wrote:
> > retrosorter wrote:
> >
> > > I just think it is worth recognizing that American English is but
> one
> > > of the many variety of Englishes in the world. This might lead to
> less
> > > Americentrism than the choice for the "word of the year" selected
> by
> > > the American Dialect Society in theie inaugural selection in 1990 -
> the
> > > eminently forgettable "bushlips."
> >
> > You're condemning the American Dialect Society for "Americentrism"?
>
> Now Sara, please don't get your American dander up.
I'm amused, not riled.
> I think that just
> as the pre-eminent dictionary in the world -the OED tries to carry
> words from all the varieties of English and not just British English,
> that it is not that much to ask that the ADS realizes that other forms
> of English exist other than American English. Heck, even the American
> Heritage Dictionary covers some of them.
I'm not familiar with the ADS and their purpose. If they claim to cover
all the varieties of English As She Is Spoke, I agree with you; if they
are concerned only with American English, then it would be bizarre for
them to list, say, a Dominican English word as their Word of the Year.
Let's see what they say... hold on... here we go. From
<http://www.americandialect.org>: "...the American Dialect Society is
dedicated to the study of the English language in North America, and of
other languages, or dialects of other languages, influencing it or
influenced by it."
Hmmm. So if they did pick a Dominican English word, it would need to be
one that influenced North American English or was influenced by it.
Tricky.
--
SML
Charles Riggs
wrote:
>
>Martin Ambuhl wrote:
>> retrosorter wrote:
>> > I noticed that flip-flopper meaning a waffler was the runner-up as
>the
>> > 2004 "word of the year" by the American Dialect Society. Is this
>in
>> > any way a new term?
>>
>> It is not in any way a new term. That hardly is disqualifying for
>"word
>> of the year."
>
>
>
>By that logic why not make "tsunami" the word of the year? Yet this
>word which devastated millions wasn't even nominated.
Yes, getting hit by a word can be very painful.
> Do words only
>have resonance insofar on how they impact Americans?
You need to ask?
--
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
Give Richard a break. It was a natural mistake to make.
--
Charles Riggs
Michael Hamm
> I'm not familiar with the ADS and their purpose. If they claim to cover
> all the varieties of English As She Is Spoke, I agree with you; if they
> are concerned only with American English, then it would be bizarre for
> them to list, say, a Dominican English word as their Word of the Year.
>
> Let's see what they say... hold on... here we go. From
> <http://www.americandialect.org>: "...the American Dialect Society is
> dedicated to the study of the English language in North America, and of
> other languages, or dialects of other languages, influencing it or
> influenced by it."
>
> Hmmm. So if they did pick a Dominican English word, it would need to be
> one that influenced North American English or was influenced by it.
Hm? Is Dominica (or the Dominican Republic; I'm not sure which you meant)
not in North America?
Anyway, their "in North America" might be going back on "study".
Michael Hamm
AM, Math, Wash. U. St. Louis
msh...@math.wustl.edu Fine print:
http://math.wustl.edu/~msh210/ ... legal.html
Sara Lorimer
> Yesterday, Sara Lorimer <que.sara....@gmail.com> gosled:
> > I'm not familiar with the ADS and their purpose. If they claim to cover
> > all the varieties of English As She Is Spoke, I agree with you; if they
> > are concerned only with American English, then it would be bizarre for
> > them to list, say, a Dominican English word as their Word of the Year.
> >
> > Let's see what they say... hold on... here we go. From
> > <http://www.americandialect.org>: "...the American Dialect Society is
> > dedicated to the study of the English language in North America, and of
> > other languages, or dialects of other languages, influencing it or
> > influenced by it."
> >
> > Hmmm. So if they did pick a Dominican English word, it would need to be
> > one that influenced North American English or was influenced by it.
>
> Hm? Is Dominica (or the Dominican Republic; I'm not sure which you meant)
> not in North America?
Dominica. I don't think of the Caribbean (which, by the way, I say as
care-eh-BEE-en, not cuh-RIB-ee-en) as being in North America, but I
suppose it is. I should've chosen a better example.
>
> Anyway, their "in North America" might be going back on "study".
It's hard to tell.
--
SML
Steve Hayes
Lorimer) wrote:
>Dominica. I don't think of the Caribbean (which, by the way, I say as
>care-eh-BEE-en, not cuh-RIB-ee-en) as being in North America, but I
>suppose it is. I should've chosen a better example.
I also say it that way. How do the locals pronounce it?
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Maria Conlon
> Sara Lorimer wrote:
>
>> Dominica. I don't think of the Caribbean (which, by the way, I say as
>> care-eh-BEE-en, not cuh-RIB-ee-en) as being in North America, but I
>> suppose it is. I should've chosen a better example.
>
> I also say it that way. How do the locals pronounce it?
I used to say care-eh-BEE-en, as Sara says, but now I say cuh-RIB-ee-en.
No explanation comes to mind. It just happened.
Maria Conlon
Sara Lorimer
> On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 11:00:36 -0800, que.sara....@gmail.com (Sara
> Lorimer) wrote:
>
> >Dominica. I don't think of the Caribbean (which, by the way, I say as
> >care-eh-BEE-en, not cuh-RIB-ee-en) as being in North America, but I
> >suppose it is. I should've chosen a better example.
>
> I also say it that way. How do the locals pronounce it?
care-eh-BEE-en, in my experience.
--
SML
Jim Ward
wrote:
>On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 11:00:36 -0800, que.sara....@gmail.com (Sara
>Lorimer) wrote:
>
>>Dominica. I don't think of the Caribbean (which, by the way, I say as
>>care-eh-BEE-en, not cuh-RIB-ee-en) as being in North America, but I
>>suppose it is. I should've chosen a better example.
>
>I also say it that way. How do the locals pronounce it?
Dominica has a nice parrot flag, unusual in that the stars don't all
point up, but rotate to point outward on their enclosing circle.
Charles Riggs
(Sara Lorimer) wrote:
>Steve Hayes wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 11:00:36 -0800, que.sara....@gmail.com (Sara
>> Lorimer) wrote:
>>
>> >Dominica. I don't think of the Caribbean (which, by the way, I say as
>> >care-eh-BEE-en, not cuh-RIB-ee-en) as being in North America, but I
>> >suppose it is. I should've chosen a better example.
>>
>> I also say it that way. How do the locals pronounce it?
>
>care-eh-BEE-en, in my experience.
Which is the proper way of pronouncing it.
--
Charles Riggs
William R Ward
Are you anti-Disney? I used to say cuh-RIB-ee-en which I got from my
parents, who once chartered a sailboat there. But then I was taken to
Disneyland and got a Disney record of the "Pirates of the
care-eh-BEE-en" (pronounced that way on the record), and I started
saying it that way instead. Now I go back and forth as the mood hits
me.
Other words that vary like that (pondially, I think): suh-HARE-uh
vs. suh-HARR-uh (cf. the song "Tea in the Sahara" by The Police) and
him-uh-LAY-uh vs. him-AL-yuh.
--
William R Ward bi...@wards.net http://bill.wards.net
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Help save the San Jose Earthquakes - http://www.soccersiliconvalley.com/
Donna Richoux
> Dominica. I don't think of the Caribbean (which, by the way, I say as
> care-eh-BEE-en, not cuh-RIB-ee-en) as being in North America, but I
> suppose it is. I should've chosen a better example.
Given your interest in the subject, I suppose you know the Judy
Garland/Gene Kelly movie "The Pirate." There's an amusing line in a song
where the singers have it both ways: "By the Cari-BE-an or Ca-RIB-bean
Sea."
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Areff
> Other words that vary like that (pondially, I think): suh-HARE-uh
> vs. suh-HARR-uh (cf. the song "Tea in the Sahara" by The Police)
Wait, which there is which Pond? I'm guessing that by "HARR" you mean the
"cart" vowel and that you're saying that that is the BrE pronunciation.
Presumably you are MIMIM, that is, you do not distinguish "hairy",
"Harry", and "herry". For *some* of us AmE speakers, however, "Sahara"
has the "Harry" vowel, which is not the "hare" vowel.
If BrE really uses "cart" in "Sahara", that seems to run counter to the
usual thing we see ("foreign" words where <a> is interpreted as "cat" by
BrE but "cart" by AmE).
--
Steny '08!
Skitt
> Sara Lorimer wrote:
>> Dominica. I don't think of the Caribbean (which, by the way, I say as
>> care-eh-BEE-en, not cuh-RIB-ee-en) as being in North America, but I
>> suppose it is. I should've chosen a better example.
>
> Given your interest in the subject, I suppose you know the Judy
> Garland/Gene Kelly movie "The Pirate." There's an amusing line in a
> song where the singers have it both ways: "By the Cari-BE-an or
> Ca-RIB-bean Sea."
Now you made me think of the carob bean cuisine of John (the B).
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
Sara Lorimer
William R Ward
> William R Ward wrote:
> > Other words that vary like that (pondially, I think): suh-HARE-uh
> > vs. suh-HARR-uh (cf. the song "Tea in the Sahara" by The Police)
>
> Wait, which there is which Pond? I'm guessing that by "HARR" you mean the
> "cart" vowel and that you're saying that that is the BrE pronunciation.
> Presumably you are MIMIM, that is, you do not distinguish "hairy",
> "Harry", and "herry". For *some* of us AmE speakers, however, "Sahara"
> has the "Harry" vowel, which is not the "hare" vowel.
I don't use the word "herry" so I'm not sure how to pronounce it, but
"hairy" and "Harry" are certainly the same to me.
> If BrE really uses "cart" in "Sahara", that seems to run counter to the
> usual thing we see ("foreign" words where <a> is interpreted as "cat" by
> BrE but "cart" by AmE).
Listen to the song (on the Synchronicity album) and let me know how
you would characterize that pronunciation.
--Bill.
Jacqui
> If BrE really uses "cart" in "Sahara", that seems to run counter
> to the usual thing we see ("foreign" words where <a> is
> interpreted as "cat" by BrE but "cart" by AmE).
We do use 'cart' there, yes. At least, all the people I've asked in the
last half hour (three, one Northern, one Southern, one non-native
speaker) do. It's probably not the only 'foreign' 'cart' sound either,
but I'm trying to think of some more and failing because I'm too tired
(oh, there is a tendency for some people to use it in the last syllable
of ~stan country names, although it's probably not nation-wide).
Jac
Jonathan Jordan
news:Xns95E1D16E2F63Fsi...@163.1.2.7...
> Areff wrote
>
> > If BrE really uses "cart" in "Sahara", that seems to run counter
> > to the usual thing we see ("foreign" words where <a> is
> > interpreted as "cat" by BrE but "cart" by AmE).
>
> We do use 'cart' there, yes. At least, all the people I've asked in the
> last half hour (three, one Northern, one Southern, one non-native
> speaker) do.
I use "father", not "cart", but I think most people have the same vowel in
those two words.
> It's probably not the only 'foreign' 'cart' sound either,
> but I'm trying to think of some more and failing because I'm too tired
> (oh, there is a tendency for some people to use it in the last syllable
> of ~stan country names, although it's probably not nation-wide).
I (Northern) use the "cat" vowel in "-stan".
I think if the spelling suggests a "long" vowel (e.g. followed by a single
consonant then another vowel, like "Sahara", "armada", "salami") then
there's a tendency to use "father". The actual vowel sound in the original
language also has some effect, at least in cases like French and German
which a lot of BrE speakers are familiar with. I think there are going to
be lots of exceptions to any rule, though, and lots of regional and
person-to-person variation.
Jonathan
Michael Hamm
> Dominica has a nice parrot flag, unusual in that the stars don't all
> point up, but rotate to point outward on their enclosing circle.
>
> http://www.fotw.us/flags/dm.html
Funny how different people's minds work different ways. I immediately saw
the stars as alternating between upright and upside-down, and it took a
second to see that they all point outward. This, even after reading your
post.
Mike Lyle
Interesting thing here. Brought up with Aus E, I used the "cat" vowel
with "Pakistan", "dance", etc; but I now, after many years of
culturally-genocidal Anglicisation, use the Southern BrE "cart"
sound. As Jonathan says, though, the perceived native pronunciation
gives "cart" for "Sahara", "salami", etc. I'm sure Australian usage
has "cart" for all these, too. I almost know what's going on, but
don't think I more than half recognize the Areff rule: I just can't
remember the examples at this late hour. I'd need more examples. Is
it that Br-type E says "P&kistahn", while AmE says "Pahkistahn"? In
my Aus youth I'd certainly have said P&k@st&n.
Mike.
Areff
In AmE "Pakistan" commonly has "cat" (for both <a>s) (well, in
can-is-not-can dialects like NYCE the second one is tin-can can), but I
think several other -stan nation-states or like entities have "father".
> As Jonathan says, though, the perceived native pronunciation
> gives "cart" for "Sahara", "salami", etc. I'm sure Australian usage
> has "cart" for all these, too. I almost know what's going on, but
> don't think I more than half recognize the Areff rule: I just can't
> remember the examples at this late hour. I'd need more examples. Is
> it that Br-type E says "P&kistahn", while AmE says "Pahkistahn"? In
> my Aus youth I'd certainly have said P&k@st&n.
GenAm has /p&k@st&n/, so it's *not* an example of the general rule. I
think the general rule tends to be more applicable to non-proper-name loan
words from other languages.
--
Steny '08!
Ross Howard
(Sara Lorimer) wrought:
Would contemporary pirates (Aaaarrr!) have used the word at all,
though? Wouldn't they have called it "the Spanish Main" or something
equally piratey? (Aaaarrr!)
--
Ross Howard
Ross Howard
wrought:
>Would contemporary pirates (Aaaarrr!) have used the word at all,
>though? Wouldn't they have called it "the Spanish Main" or something
>equally piratey? (Aaaarrr!)
Sorry, poor word choice. By "contemporary" I was referring to the
Golden Age of Keel-Hawlin', Plank-Walkin', Parrot-Squawkin', Rum-Kegs
'n'-Peg-Legs Piracy (Aaaarrr!), i.e. 17th-18th century.
--
Ross Howard
Ross Howard
I heard another excellent MIMIM word on some TV showgramme or ither
last night: "ex-spearmints".
--
Ross Howard
John Dean
I thought the Spanish Main was the area along the Spanish-controlled
coast of South America ("main" = "mainland") while the Caribbean was the
whole nine yards (or whatever it measured from side to side).
--
John Dean
Oxford
Ross Howard
<john...@frag.lineone.net> wrought:
Er, yeah. Right. But it have been both. For example, Maracaibo (in
present-day Venezuela) was a port of choice for pirates (Aaaarrr!) to
sack, and that's definitely the Caribbean.
That still leaves the question of what the pirates (Aaaarrr! That's
enough "Crackerjack!" businesss -- Ed.) would have called the waters
that washed Hispaniola (present-day Haiti and the Dominican Republic),
Tortuga (off the northern coast of Haiti) or Port Royal (in Jamaicky)
-- just "the Indies", perhaps?
I don't really know why "Caribbean" sounds not-quite-right for the
17th century to me -- but it just does. I imagine Sara will be able to
set us straight.
--
Ross Howard
Maria Conlon
>
> I heard another excellent MIMIM word on some TV showgramme or ither
> last night: "ex-spearmints".
That's chewed gum, isn't it?
Maria Conlon
Occasional Purchaser of Wrigley's Spearmint
Sara Lorimer
> Er, yeah. Right. But it have been both. For example, Maracaibo (in
> present-day Venezuela) was a port of choice for pirates (Aaaarrr!) to
> sack, and that's definitely the Caribbean.
>
> That still leaves the question of what the pirates (Aaaarrr! That's
> enough "Crackerjack!" businesss -- Ed.) would have called the waters
> that washed Hispaniola (present-day Haiti and the Dominican Republic),
> Tortuga (off the northern coast of Haiti) or Port Royal (in Jamaicky)
> -- just "the Indies", perhaps?
>
> I don't really know why "Caribbean" sounds not-quite-right for the
> 17th century to me -- but it just does. I imagine Sara will be able to
> set us straight.
Frustratingly, my contemporary books and my OED are in boxes waiting
(and waiting and waiting) to be unpacked.
--
SML
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> In any case, I was not aware that so many Americans were devotees of
> logical positivism.
Determining us Americans' philosophies would be impossible--a
sociological investigation could determine only what we claim are our
philosophies--so the subject isn't worth talking about.
--
Jerry Friedman
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> Ross Howard wrote:
> > On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:12:14 -0800, que.sara....@gmail.com
> > (Sara Lorimer) wrought:
> >
> >> Donna Richoux <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Sara Lorimer <que.sara....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Dominica. I don't think of the Caribbean (which, by the way, I
say
> >>>> as care-eh-BEE-en, not cuh-RIB-ee-en) as being in North America,
> >>>> but I suppose it is. I should've chosen a better example.
I always thought it had the "marry" vowel for you MINMINMs. Anyway, I
accent the "rib". Your pronunciation is an effete English and
anglophilic one, like "HARass". So there.
> > Would contemporary pirates (Aaaarrr!) have used the word at all,
> > though? Wouldn't they have called it "the Spanish Main" or
something
> > equally piratey? (Aaaarrr!)
>
> I thought the Spanish Main was the area along the Spanish-controlled
> coast of South America ("main" = "mainland") while the Caribbean was
the
> whole nine yards (or whatever it measured from side to side).
MWCD says:
1 the mainland of Spanish America especially along N coast of S.
America
2 the Caribbean Sea & adjacent waters especially at the time when
region was infested with pirates
(I don't know why those "the"s are missing.)
AHD says:
1. The coastal region of mainland Spanish America in the 16th and 17th
centuries, extending from the Isthmus of Panama to the mouth of the
Orinoco River. 2. The section of the Caribbean Sea crossed by Spanish
ships in colonial times. The treasure-laden ships were often raided by
English buccaneers.
So it's settled. The Spanish Main is either bigger or smaller than the
Caribbean Sea.
By the way, AHD needs to sharpen their definition a little, as in the
16th and 17th centuries, mainland Spanish America also included the
rest of the Caribbean coast, from the Isthmus of Panama to Florida,
except Louisiana and the British settlements that became Belize. In
view of that and the many Spanish settlements on Caribbean islands, I
have trouble believing that the entire sea wasn't crossed by Spanish
ships.
--
Jerry Friedman
Areff
> John Dean wrote:
>> Ross Howard wrote:
>> > On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:12:14 -0800, que.sara....@gmail.com
>> > (Sara Lorimer) wrought:
>> >
>> >> Donna Richoux <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Sara Lorimer <que.sara....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Dominica. I don't think of the Caribbean (which, by the way, I
> say
>> >>>> as care-eh-BEE-en, not cuh-RIB-ee-en) as being in North America,
>> >>>> but I suppose it is. I should've chosen a better example.
> ...
>
> I always thought it had the "marry" vowel for you MINMINMs.
In New York City English (The Dialect So Nice They Named It NYCE)
"Caribbean" indeed has the "marry" vowel when the third syllable is
stressed (otherwise it's a schwa). I know that some other MINMINM
dialects differ on what goes into the "marry" class, so this might not be
true for them.
--
Steny '08!
Tony Cooper
I thought it was a reference to the Doublemint Twins.
William R Ward
> I don't really know why "Caribbean" sounds not-quite-right for the
> 17th century to me -- but it just does. I imagine Sara will be able to
> set us straight.
You've obviously not been sufficiently indoctrinated by the "Pirates
of the Caribbean" ride at Disneyland. Aarrrr.
Ross Howard
wrought:
>Ross Howard <ggu...@yahoo.com> writes:
>> I don't really know why "Caribbean" sounds not-quite-right for the
>> 17th century to me -- but it just does. I imagine Sara will be able to
>> set us straight.
>
>You've obviously not been sufficiently indoctrinated by the "Pirates
>of the Caribbean" ride at Disneyland. Aarrrr.
No, I just can't imagine a real pirate of the Caribbean saying,
"Aaarrr! Oi'm a poirate o' the Caribbean is oi!"
Where are Messrs Lyle & Dean (or indeed Messrs Pearl and Tate) when we
need their OEDs? Anyone else for a first ref for "Caribbean (Sea)"?
--
Ross Howard
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
This what Areff has not called "The Jeery Phenomenon", in which MINMINM
speakers, hearing the "Mary" vowel where they expect the "merry" vowel,
interpret it as the "mere" vowel and thus think I pronounce my name
"Jeery". Cf. "The Geery Phenomenon", which a college classmate of mine
named Gary could tell you all about.
(Or the person could have said "ex-spearmints". I wasn't there.)
--
Jerry Friedman
John Dean
Pa-pa-pa-PAH-pa-papa whatever.
Um, I'm HERE. I was just talking to you a moment ago.
You want OED?
< I want OED >
You want OED?
< YES I WANT OED >
You can't HANDLE OED! FUNEX?
Anyway, OED (bizarrely IMHO) has "Caribbean" only as an afterthought to
"Carib".
... Hence "Caribal a. (after cannibal); Cari"bbean a. and n., applied
to certain of the West Indian isles, and to the sea between them and the
mainland;
And no cites for "Caribbean" as a geographical term. (This is OED2 on
CD; I'd guess the on-line version has something better).
Better represented is:
b. Spanish Main, the mainland of America adjacent to the Caribbean
Sea, esp. that portion of the coast stretching from the Isthmus of
Panama to the mouth of the Orinoco; in later use also, the sea
contiguous to this, or the route traversed by the Spanish register
ships. Now Hist.
1725 Sloane Jamaica II. 297 This is brought from the Spanish Main, or
Continent of America. 1765 Phil. Trans. LV. 50 The portrait of a child
born of negro parents upon the Spanish main. 1803 J. Burney Disc. in
South Sea i. i. 7 That part of the continent, since known by the names
of Terra Firma, and the Spanish Main. 1839 Longfellow Wreck Hesperus
iv, Then+spake an old Sailor, Had sailed the Spanish Main. 1890 J.
Corbett Drake viii. 110 Cartagena was the capital of the Spanish Main.
--
John Dean Debacle
Oxford
Laura F. Spira
>
> Where are Messrs Lyle & Dean (or indeed Messrs Pearl and Tate)
Neat.
P & D are still going apparently and the music can be revisited at
http://www.pearlanddean.com/intro_ns.html
And now I have a *really* nasty bout of STS to deal with.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Donna Richoux
>
> And no cites for "Caribbean" as a geographical term. (This is OED2 on
> CD; I'd guess the on-line version has something better).
Since you didn't find much, I can report I didn't find much, either.
There's a page of citations mostly making the connection to the word
"cannibal"
http://employees.oneonta.edu/ramirel/spring00/ids/jan28.html
At the end are some references to "Caribbean," including DeFoe, 1719.
"Caribbees" appears to be the older term, relating to the Antilles and
the people thereon. That sounds nice and pirate-y, doesn't it?
"Caribbees." And it would suggest that the resulting adjective
"Caribbean" would have the stress on "be".
French influence in the region might have confused things, though...
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
dcw
John Dean <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
>Anyway, OED (bizarrely IMHO) has "Caribbean" only as an afterthought to
>"Carib".
According to Burchfield, it's OED policy to exclude placenames, though
there are some included for no obvious reason. "West Indies" is one.
David
Ross Howard
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrought:
>Ross Howard wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Where are Messrs Lyle & Dean (or indeed Messrs Pearl and Tate)
>
>Neat.
>
>P & D are still going apparently and the music can be revisited at
>http://www.pearlanddean.com/intro_ns.html
>
>And now I have a *really* nasty bout of STS to deal with.
CHA-CHAN, chuh-CHAN, chuh-CHAN, chuh-CHAN, CHA-chuh-chan....
--
Ross Howard
Ross Howard
wrought:
>John Dean <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
>>
>> And no cites for "Caribbean" as a geographical term. (This is OED2 on
>> CD; I'd guess the on-line version has something better).
>
>Since you didn't find much, I can report I didn't find much, either.
>There's a page of citations mostly making the connection to the word
>"cannibal"
>
>http://employees.oneonta.edu/ramirel/spring00/ids/jan28.html
>
>At the end are some references to "Caribbean," including DeFoe, 1719.
>
>"Caribbees" appears to be the older term, relating to the Antilles and
>the people thereon. That sounds nice and pirate-y, doesn't it?
Aaaarrr! Fer sure it do! To the Caribbees, me hearties, where the
pickins be rich they be!
--
Ross Howard
Linz
"Laura F. Spira" <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote in message
news:csqi0t$rkk$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Ross Howard wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Where are Messrs Lyle & Dean (or indeed Messrs Pearl and Tate)
>
> Neat.
>
> P & D are still going apparently and the music can be revisited at
> http://www.pearlanddean.com/intro_ns.html
>
> And now I have a *really* nasty bout of STS to deal with.
It was the done thing to sing along to that at FilmSoc when I was a
student and the habit came back to haunt me. I went with a friend to
the local cinema and just as the advertising started, the sound broke.
So he and I sang the theme and got a round of applause.
PapapapapaaaPA!
Richard Maurer
And now I have a *really* nasty bout of STS to deal with.
Ross Howard wrote:
CHA-CHAN, chuh-CHAN, chuh-CHAN, chuh-CHAN, CHA-chuh-chan....
Aversion therapy?
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Lyle
FGS, is it now regarded as appropriate for nurses to chew gum on
duty? And, if it is, are they really allowed to do it with their
bloody mouths open?
And in a Barclays Bank branch the other day, one of the suits was
talking to a client at an interview desk, and using his mouth-open
mastication as part of his smile. Barclays are a bit brash, I know;
but if it starts happening at my own bank I'm going to get seriously
connipted. Apparently it was a Providential Mercy that my
bank-manager grandfather didn't live to see banks advertising, so I
can hardly begin to imagine his reaction to outward and visible
chicle.
Mike.
Charles Riggs
Careful, Coop, for a mention of twins may stir Maria to rehash the
nappies topic in double time.
--
Charles Riggs
Mike Lyle
"After the show, why not relax with a visit to the OED?"
Odd that OED 1 & 2 _use_ "Caribbean Sea" without providing
quotations: odder still if 3's only example is OED1 (has this
happened?). Publishing in fascicles can play hell with scholarship;
but it's not in the 1931 Supplement, either. (I can't get _The
Century Dictionary_ to work.)
On pronunciation (re Donna, downthread), I think the locals prefer to
place the stress on the "-rib-".
Mike.
Ross Howard
<mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrought:
It's just another financial bubble, innit.
--
Ross Howard
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> Steve Hayes wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 11:00:36 -0800, que.sara....@gmail.com
(Sara
> > Lorimer) wrote:
> >
> > >Dominica. I don't think of the Caribbean (which, by the way, I say
as
> > >care-eh-BEE-en, not cuh-RIB-ee-en) as being in North America, but
I
> > >suppose it is. I should've chosen a better example.
> >
>
> care-eh-BEE-en, in my experience.
I listened to BBC World's "Letter" today. The speaker was Teresa
Mills, a journalist from Trinidad, talking about how the
English-speaking Caribbean nations are trying to change their final
court of appeal from the British Law Lords to a Caribbean Court of
Justice because the Law Lords (or do I mean the Privy Council?) are
getting in the way of the death penalty.
Anyway, she said "Ca-RIB-ee-an".
--
Jerry Friedman
Tony Cooper
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I've made quite a few dive trips to Caribbean dive destinations. I've
always heard Ca-RIB-ee-an down there.
John Dean
You're going to get one more warning about the Robert Newton stuff
followed, most likely, by a slap.
--
John "like, avast" Dean
Oxford
John Dean
They have "Atlantic" and as a definition for "pacific" they have "The
Pacific Ocean". They even have "North Sea" which, apparently, used to be
the Bristol Channel but is now the German Ocean.
More honoured in the breach than the observance then.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Sara Lorimer
I lived Kingston, Jamaica, in the mid-1980's and car-eh-BEE-an was more
popular with the people I knew. I wonder if there are regional
differences, class differences, just who it is who says which and how
long it's been that way.
--
SML
Mike Lyle
Surely you don't believe a thing that Julie Burchfield says?
Mike.
Tony Cooper
I've never been to Jamaica. I've been diving in the Bahamas, Caymans,
the ABCs, and the Virgin Islands. All I can tell you is what I heard.
On dive trips, you don't meet many locals unless you include people
who have moved there to work in the area.
Areff
My general sense is that "CariBEEan" was once more popular and that
"CaRIBbean" has been replacing it. I'd uneducatedly guesstimate that the
change primarily took place during the 1970s (like, duh) and was largely
complete by 1985, by which time Coop had moved to Orlando if I'm not
mistaken.
--
Steny '08!
Robin Bignall
Or Blind Pew giving him the Black Spot.
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Hertfordshire
England
John Dean
I believe "tipping" is technical term for it.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Maria Conlon
> Tony Cooper wrote:
>> Maria Conlon wrote:
>>> Ross Howard wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I heard another excellent MIMIM word on some TV showgramme or ither
>>>> last night: "ex-spearmints".
>>>
>>> That's chewed gum, isn't it?
>>>
>>> Maria Conlon
>>> Occasional Purchaser of Wrigley's Spearmint
>>
>> I thought it was a reference to the Doublemint Twins.
>>
> Careful, Coop, for a mention of twins may stir Maria to rehash the
> nappies topic in double time.
Nah. "Twins" does remind me, though, to mention that my husband is a
twin.[1] His mother always said that taking care of twins was easier
than taking care of just one. I still question that. (She had seven
children, btw. The twins were first [and second].)
People usually wonder, when I say Brian is a twin, if I ever get the two
of them mixed up. Never. I'm sure you all can guess why.
Maria Conlon
R J Valentine
...
} People usually wonder, when I say Brian is a twin, if I ever get the two
} of them mixed up. Never. I'm sure you all can guess why.
He's the bald one?
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:r...@smart.net>
Charles Riggs
When in Rome, do as the Romans do, not as the tourists in Rome do. The
word is pronounced car-eh-BEE-an, as several people have told you, and
as the natives would have told you had you associated with them.
--
Charles Riggs
John Holmes
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1106255949.2...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> This what Areff has not called "The Jeery Phenomenon", in which
MINMINM
> speakers, hearing the "Mary" vowel where they expect the "merry"
vowel,
> interpret it as the "mere" vowel and thus think I pronounce my name
> "Jeery". Cf. "The Geery Phenomenon", which a college classmate of
mine
> named Gary could tell you all about.
>
This is confusing. Doesn't Jerry have the merry vowel, and Gary the
marry vowel? What's Mary got to do with it?
Or are you Jairy, and your college mate Gairy?
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus those of alt.usage.english
at tpg dot com dot au
R H Draney
>
>On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 00:56:06 -0500 Maria Conlon <mariaco...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>...
>} People usually wonder, when I say Brian is a twin, if I ever get the two
>} of them mixed up. Never. I'm sure you all can guess why.
>
>He's the bald one?
I wouldn't recommend that as a spoken answer, though....r
Mike Lyle
> On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 00:56:06 -0500 Maria Conlon
> <mariaco...@hotmail.com> wrote: ...
> } People usually wonder, when I say Brian is a twin, if I ever get
> the two } of them mixed up. Never. I'm sure you all can guess why.
>
> He's the bald one?
Well, I certainly hope his sister doesn't wear a moustache.
Mike.
Maria Conlon
> R J Valentine wrote:
>> Maria Conlon wrote: ...
>> } People usually wonder, when I say Brian is a twin, if I ever get
>> the two } of them mixed up. Never. I'm sure you all can guess why.
>>
>> He's the bald one?
He's not bald.
> Well, I certainly hope his sister doesn't wear a moustache.
Bingo. (But neither does Brian. Still, I can tell them apart.)
Maria Conlon
Michael Hamm
> > > > People usually wonder, when I say Brian is a twin, if I ever get
> > > > the two of them mixed up. Never. I'm sure you all can guess why.
> > Well, I certainly hope his sister doesn't wear a moustache.
>
> Bingo. (But neither does Brian. Still, I can tell them apart.)
I just figured they're fraternal (which they are): that'd suffice
(usually).
Michael Hamm
AM, Math, Wash. U. St. Louis
msh...@math.wustl.edu Fine print:
http://math.wustl.edu/~msh210/ ... legal.html
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1106255949.2...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > This what Areff has not called "The Jeery Phenomenon", in which
> MINMINM
> > speakers, hearing the "Mary" vowel where they expect the "merry"
> vowel,
> > interpret it as the "mere" vowel and thus think I pronounce my name
> > "Jeery". Cf. "The Geery Phenomenon", which a college classmate of
> mine
> > named Gary could tell you all about.
> >
> This is confusing. Doesn't Jerry have the merry vowel, and Gary the
> marry vowel? What's Mary got to do with it?
>
> Or are you Jairy, and your college mate Gairy?
Right. Gary and I and a great many Amairicans pronounce "Mary",
"marry", and "merry" all the same. Those of you who make a distinction
would probably here it as the "Mary" vowel--but some people take it one
step farther and here it as the "mere" vowel.
--
Jerry Friedman
R J Valentine
She's the bald one?
John Dean
> Today, Maria Conlon <mariaco...@hotmail.com> gosled:
>>>>> People usually wonder, when I say Brian is a twin, if I ever get
>>>>> the two of them mixed up. Never. I'm sure you all can guess why.
>> <snip>
>>> Well, I certainly hope his sister doesn't wear a moustache.
>>
>> Bingo. (But neither does Brian. Still, I can tell them apart.)
My sister wears a mustache,
My brother wears a dress.
Goodness gracious, that's why I'm a mess!
BTW, is "wear a mustache" an Americanism? I don't recollect hearing it
UK-side where I think the usual term is "has a mustache".
--
John Dean
Oxford
Laura F. Spira
AARGH! One of the worst songs for STS! Particularly bad because if my
husband hears me humming it, he will join in just to show that he knows
all the words... In fact, all the WSS songs are stickers - must be
something to do with the combination of Sondheim and Bernstein. Or being
a teenager...
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
I say and hear "has a mustache" too. Maybe it's a New York City
Delinquentism, or maybe Sondheim just wanted the parallelism.
--
Jerry Friedman
John Dean
Could be.
Who Knows?
--
John Dean
Oxford
William R Ward
> John Dean wrote:
> > My sister wears a mustache,
> > My brother wears a dress.
> > Goodness gracious, that's why I'm a mess!
> >
> > BTW, is "wear a mustache" an Americanism? I don't recollect hearing
> it
> > UK-side where I think the usual term is "has a mustache".
>
> I say and hear "has a mustache" too. Maybe it's a New York City
> Delinquentism, or maybe Sondheim just wanted the parallelism.
I'm with you on "has" too. But perhaps it makes sense here; most
women don't grow enough facial hair to "have" a mustache. Perhaps the
sister is *wearing* an artificial one?
--
William R Ward bi...@wards.net http://bill.wards.net
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Help save the San Jose Earthquakes - http://www.soccersiliconvalley.com/
Michael Hamm
> > > BTW, is "wear a mustache" an Americanism? I don't recollect hearing
> > > it UK-side where I think the usual term is "has a mustache".
> >
> > I say and hear "has a mustache" too. Maybe it's a New York City
> > Delinquentism, or maybe Sondheim just wanted the parallelism.
>
> I'm with you on "has" too.
As am I (formerly of NYC).
John Dean
> "jerry_f...@yahoo.com" <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> writes:
>> John Dean wrote:
>>> My sister wears a mustache,
>>> My brother wears a dress.
>>> Goodness gracious, that's why I'm a mess!
>>>
>>> BTW, is "wear a mustache" an Americanism? I don't recollect hearing
>>> it UK-side where I think the usual term is "has a mustache".
>>
>> I say and hear "has a mustache" too. Maybe it's a New York City
>> Delinquentism, or maybe Sondheim just wanted the parallelism.
>
> I'm with you on "has" too. But perhaps it makes sense here; most
> women don't grow enough facial hair to "have" a mustache. Perhaps the
> sister is *wearing* an artificial one?
Which is a possibility that confuses the results in a Google search for
"have / has" versus "wear / wears" a "mustache / moustache".
But the possessive seems to outnumber the portative by around ten to
one.
Federal Bureau of Prisons regulations online include:
"[MUSTACHES AND BEARDS §551.2 An inmate may wear a mustache or beard or
both. The Warden shall require an inmate with a beard to wear a beard
covering when working in food service or where a beard could result in
increased likelihood of work injury.]
7. [HAIRPIECES §551.3 Inmates may not wear wigs or artificial
hairpieces, unless medical authorization to do so is approved by the
Warden.] "
--
John Dean
Oxford
the Omrud
Maria?
--
David
=====
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