Why is it called London Broil if they don't eat it in London?

[Ann Marie Brest]

I can't imagine why they call the cut London Broil, when I couldn't
find a single restaurant in the UK that was serving it.

[Mack A. Damia]

Nobody seems to have any idea, but it is a "technique" of preparing an
inexpensive (and tough) cut of beef; that is, to marinate it, broil
and cut on the diagonal. James Beard believed that the name was first
used in Philadelphia.

The reason for the name may be similar to "Brown Windsor soup" -
ordinary common brown soup made genteel by adding the name, "Windsor".

An ordinary, cheap cut of beef made genteel by adding the name
"London".

--

[Guy Barry]

"Ann Marie Brest" wrote in message news:lis89i$v3o$1...@news.mixmin.net...

>
>I can't imagine why they call the cut London Broil, when I couldn't
>find a single restaurant in the UK that was serving it.

I'd certainly never heard of it. Wikipedia informs me:

"London broil is a North American beef dish made by broiling or grilling
marinated flank steak, then cutting it across the grain into thin strips.
The origin of the name is obscure; the dish is unknown in the English city
of London."

We don't normally use the term "broiling" either; we call it "grilling".
All very odd.

--
Guy Barry

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Ann Marie Brest skrev:

> I can't imagine why they call the cut London Broil, when I couldn't
> find a single restaurant in the UK that was serving it.

In Denmark we can have "engelsk bøf" (English steak). Few Brits
(if any) know what it is.

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2014-04-18 22:17:09 +0000, Ann Marie Brest said:

> I can't imagine why they call the cut London Broil, when I couldn't
> find a single restaurant in the UK that was serving it.

There are also English muffins, which bear no resemblance to any muffin
you might find in England.


--
athel

[charles]

In article <53523899$0$297$1472...@news.sunsite.dk>,

and in the UK we have (or used to have) "vienna steak"

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[Tony Cooper]

On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 12:08:54 +0100, charles
<cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <53523899$0$297$1472...@news.sunsite.dk>,
> Bertel Lund Hansen <kanon...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>> Ann Marie Brest skrev:
>
>> > I can't imagine why they call the cut London Broil, when I couldn't
>> > find a single restaurant in the UK that was serving it.
>
>> In Denmark we can have "engelsk bøf" (English steak). Few Brits
>> (if any) know what it is.
>
>and in the UK we have (or used to have) "vienna steak"

We have salisbury steak. I like mine plain.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL

[Peter T. Daniels]

Then what do you call grilling?

Broiling: intense heat from above. Grilling: intense heat from below,
using a grate so that the (formerly icky) fats drip away from the meat.
(A big review article now claims that all those fats that were supposed
to give us heart disease don't.)

As with many food names, perhaps it's named for the restaurant where
it was first devised.

[Guy Barry]

"Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message
news:e7ebc7cb-c371-44d8...@googlegroups.com...

>
>On Saturday, April 19, 2014 3:19:26 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:

>> We don't normally use the term "broiling" either; we call it "grilling".
>> All very odd.
>
>Then what do you call grilling?
>
>Broiling: intense heat from above. Grilling: intense heat from below,
>using a grate so that the (formerly icky) fats drip away from the meat.

They're both called "grilling" in BrE. You can grill food from either side,
or both at once.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grilling

--
Guy Barry

[Peter Percival]

Ann Marie Brest wrote:
> I can't imagine why they call the cut London Broil, when I couldn't
> find a single restaurant in the UK that was serving it.

I am reminded of a Danish fellow coming to Britain to work with me for a
few days. On the first day in the office I asked how his hotel was. He
replied that he'd had something called a Danish pastry, it was delicious
but he'd seen nothing like it in Denmark.

--
...if someone seduced my daughter it would be damaging and horrifying
but not fatal. She would recover, marry and have lots of children...
On the other hand, if some elderly, or not so elderly, schoolmaster
seduced one of my sons and taught him to be a homosexual, he would ruin
him for life. That is the fundamental distinction. -- Lord Longford

[Whiskers]

In the last 20 years or so "muffins" have appeared in British bakeries,
which are in fact a sort of small(ish) sponge-cake. I think they
originated in north America. We also still get real muffins, of course;
they are to be found in the bread section, near the crumpets.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

[Whiskers]

On 2014-04-19, Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Saturday, April 19, 2014 3:19:26 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
>> "Ann Marie Brest" wrote in message
>> news:lis89i$v3o$1...@news.mixmin.net...
>
>> >I can't imagine why they call the cut London Broil, when I couldn't
>>
>> >find a single restaurant in the UK that was serving it.
>>
>> I'd certainly never heard of it. Wikipedia informs me: "London broil
>> is a North American beef dish made by broiling or grilling marinated
>> flank steak, then cutting it across the grain into thin strips. The
>> origin of the name is obscure; the dish is unknown in the English
>> city of London."
>>
>> We don't normally use the term "broiling" either; we call it
>> "grilling". All very odd.
>
> Then what do you call grilling?
>
> Broiling: intense heat from above. Grilling: intense heat from below,
> using a grate so that the (formerly icky) fats drip away from the
> meat.

We call both those methods "grilling"; also, the use of direct contact
with a heated corrugated surface without the addition of any oil or fat
(or not much) or pressing between two corrugated heated surfaces, or
radiant heat from one or more sides.

The heat-source seems to have moved above the grill supporting the food,
when domestic cooking migrated from open fires to gas or electricity;
the gas burners or electrical heating elements wouldn't react well to
having fat or liquids dripped onto them.

Cooking by radiant heat is really "roasting", and we still have the term
"spit-roast" to describe the use of a spike or stick through the middle
of the food to hold it close to the heat-source. Confusingly, most
roasting nowadays takes place inside an enclosed "oven" where there is
more convection of hot air (possibly fan-assisted) than radiant heat or
contact with a hot surface. We distinguish roasting by the presence of
oil or fat, and possibly by the action of "basting" - dribbling hot
fatty liquid (dripped from the food into a container) over the food as
it cooks. In the absence of oil or fat, an oven "bakes".

Something roasted by being placed on a "grill" (a perforated support,
such as interlaced or parallel metal bars or wires) instead of on a
spit, would gain a distinctive pattern of dark marks from the grill, so
could be described as "grilled". We might say "barbecued" for this
method nowadays, especially if the cooking took place out of doors.

There is also a cooking implement known as a "griddle" (sometimes
"girdle"), being a flat or corrugated metal surface used for cooking by
placing it over the fire or embers. The corrugated version would impart
marks similar to those from the "grill" referred to above, so the terms
"grilled" and "griddled" probably became confused by the eaters even if
not originally by the cooks. Griddles with built-in electric heating
elements, often having a second metal plate to sit on top of the food
being cooked, seem always to be referred to as "grills".

A griddle with a smooth surface is difficult to distinguish from a metal
"bakestone" (or "backstone"), used for baking - possibly with a cover
forming in effect a simple "oven".

> (A big review article now claims that all those fats that were
> supposed to give us heart disease don't.)

Nutrition seems still to be more art than science.

> As with many food names, perhaps it's named for the restaurant where
> it was first devised.

Or from one of the Londons that isn't in England, or from the name of a
cook.

[Mack A. Damia]

We made them a lot in the 1970s when I was married. A local
supermarket chain, Shopright, seemed to specialize in them.

Two different cuts: shoulder and round. The round was more
expensive.

But we would sprinkle Lawry's Seasoned Salt on both sides and throw it
on a barbecue grill.

Grill to medium-rare and slice on the diagonal.

Oh, my mouth is watering!

--

[Mack A. Damia]

It is only a name - a technique for preparing tough, inexpensive
beef.

It is marinated, cooked and sliced on the bias.

It can be broiled, grilled or even fried. It matters not.

--

[Alastair Black]

No one names anything for themselves unless they are
so enamoured of themselves that they could be arrested.
In France, "French Fries" are merely pommes-de-terre
frites. Take our entire planet, for example. All the
other planets in the solar system are named for
Olympian gods; 'Mars', 'Venus', 'Neptune' and so on.
Our planet must surely be called 'Demeter'. Yet we
who live here call it 'Mudball' (sometimes 'Dirt'
or 'Earth').

Alastair

[charles]

In article <liucrs$98a$1...@n102.xanadu-bbs.net>,

Alastair Black <abqab...@example.net> wrote:
> On 04/19/2014 01:19 AM, Guy Barry wrote:
> > "Ann Marie Brest" wrote in message news:lis89i$v3o$1...@news.mixmin.net...
> >>
> >> I can't imagine why they call the cut London Broil, when I couldn't
> >> find a single restaurant in the UK that was serving it.
> >
> > I'd certainly never heard of it. Wikipedia informs me:
> >
> > "London broil is a North American beef dish made by broiling or grilling
> > marinated flank steak, then cutting it across the grain into thin
> > strips. The origin of the name is obscure; the dish is unknown in the
> > English city of London."
> >
> > We don't normally use the term "broiling" either; we call it "grilling".
> > All very odd.
> >

> No one names anything for themselves unless they are
> so enamoured of themselves that they could be arrested.
> In France, "French Fries" are merely pommes-de-terre
> frites.

That's because "French Fries" as a name originated in Belgium, created by
the US Army in WW1.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Hm. Further evidence of the inadequacy of Br cooking. The results are
not similar.

[Tak To]

On 4/19/2014 3:19 AM, Guy Barry wrote:
> "Ann Marie Brest" wrote in message news:lis89i$v3o$1...@news.mixmin.net...
>>
>> I can't imagine why they call the cut London Broil, when I couldn't
>> find a single restaurant in the UK that was serving it.
>
> I'd certainly never heard of it. Wikipedia informs me:
>
> "London broil is a North American beef dish made by broiling or grilling
> marinated flank steak, then cutting it across the grain into thin strips.
> The origin of the name is obscure; the dish is unknown in the English city
> of London."

Same article, just below

WK] "London Broil - the Cut
WK] Although American butchers may label a cut of meat "London
WK] broil", the term does not refer to a specific cut of meat
WK] but to a method of preparation and cookery. The cut of meat
WK] traditionally used is flank steak, but butchers may label
WK] top round steak or roast as London broil.

I don't remember if I ever had London Broil in a
restaurant or what kind of cut was used. However,
but in my experience, most "London Broil" sold in
the supermarket in Boston and NY area are from the
round. Flank steak is typically sold as a single
long thin piece, folded so that it can fit in the
the usual rectangular shape of a meat package.
"London broil" is typically sold in pieces having
the shape of a regular steak. One can tell from the
thickness, texture, marbling etc, that it is not
flank steak.

I use flank steak a lot for Chinese beef dishes.
A couple of decades ago it was very cheap. Now it
is more expensive.

> We don't normally use the term "broiling" either; we call it "grilling".
> All very odd.

Tak
--
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

[Adam Funk]

On 2014-04-18, Ann Marie Brest wrote:

> I can't imagine why they call the cut London Broil, when I couldn't
> find a single restaurant in the UK that was serving it.

Can you get it in Ontario?


--
I don't quite understand this worship of objectivity in
journalism. Now, just flat-out lying is different from being
subjective. --- Hunter S Thompson

[Adam Funk]

On 2014-04-19, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Saturday, April 19, 2014 3:19:26 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
>> "Ann Marie Brest" wrote in message news:lis89i$v3o$1...@news.mixmin.net...
>
>> >I can't imagine why they call the cut London Broil, when I couldn't
>>
>> >find a single restaurant in the UK that was serving it.
>>
>> I'd certainly never heard of it. Wikipedia informs me:
>> "London broil is a North American beef dish made by broiling or grilling
>> marinated flank steak, then cutting it across the grain into thin strips.
>> The origin of the name is obscure; the dish is unknown in the English city
>> of London."
>>
>> We don't normally use the term "broiling" either; we call it "grilling".
>> All very odd.
>
> Then what do you call grilling?

barbecuing


--
In the 1970s, people began receiving utility bills for
-£999,999,996.32 and it became harder to sustain the
myth of the infallible electronic brain. (Verity Stob)

[Tak To]

On 4/19/2014 1:11 PM, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 14:15:31 +0100, "Guy Barry"
> <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> "Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message
>> news:e7ebc7cb-c371-44d8...@googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>> On Saturday, April 19, 2014 3:19:26 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
>>
>>>> We don't normally use the term "broiling" either; we call it "grilling".
>>>> All very odd.
>>>
>>> Then what do you call grilling?
>>>
>>> Broiling: intense heat from above. Grilling: intense heat from below,
>>> using a grate so that the (formerly icky) fats drip away from the meat.
>>
>> They're both called "grilling" in BrE. You can grill food from either side,
>> or both at once.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grilling
>
> We made them a lot in the 1970s when I was married. A local
> supermarket chain, Shopright, seemed to specialize in them.
>
> Two different cuts: shoulder and round. The round was more
> expensive.

I have never heard of of a London Broil (cut) that is
from the shoulder (chuck). Chuck is in general tougher
than round, so it it used mainly for stew.

Incidentally, there is a local supermarket chain called
"ShopRite" here in New Jersey.

> But we would sprinkle Lawry's Seasoned Salt on both sides and throw it
> on a barbecue grill.
>
> Grill to medium-rare and slice on the diagonal.
>
> Oh, my mouth is watering!

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 16:01:22 -0400, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx>
wrote:

>On 4/19/2014 1:11 PM, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 14:15:31 +0100, "Guy Barry"
>> <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> "Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message
>>> news:e7ebc7cb-c371-44d8...@googlegroups.com...
>>>>
>>>> On Saturday, April 19, 2014 3:19:26 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
>>>
>>>>> We don't normally use the term "broiling" either; we call it "grilling".
>>>>> All very odd.
>>>>
>>>> Then what do you call grilling?
>>>>
>>>> Broiling: intense heat from above. Grilling: intense heat from below,
>>>> using a grate so that the (formerly icky) fats drip away from the meat.
>>>
>>> They're both called "grilling" in BrE. You can grill food from either side,
>>> or both at once.
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grilling
>>
>> We made them a lot in the 1970s when I was married. A local
>> supermarket chain, Shopright, seemed to specialize in them.
>>
>> Two different cuts: shoulder and round. The round was more
>> expensive.
>
>I have never heard of of a London Broil (cut) that is
>from the shoulder (chuck). Chuck is in general tougher
>than round, so it it used mainly for stew.
>
>Incidentally, there is a local supermarket chain called
>"ShopRite" here in New Jersey.

I don't know, they closed all of their stores in the Reading -
Allentown, PA area, but I haven't lived there for fifteen years, so
they could have reopened under new management.

When I talk about my experiences with London broil, I am talking about
the early to mid-1970s, and a neighbor turned my wife (ex) and I onto
them.

But that's the way it was: round and shoulder. The shoulder cut had
more fat, and we most always bought the round cut.

--

[Adam Funk]

I've recently seen muffins in England that are pretty similar to
American "English muffins". I've also seen them in Monoprix in Paris
as "muffins blancs".


From _Dharma & Greg_:

Why would they call it French toast if it wasn't invented in France?

Because "French" makes it sound classy, like with fries, or
sticking your tongue down someone's throat.


--
A firm rule must be imposed upon our nation before it destroys
itself. The United States needs some theology and geometry, some taste
and decency. I suspect that we are teetering on the edge of the abyss.
--- Ignatius J Reilly

[Katy Jennison]

You might argue that it's evidence for an inadequacy in the BrE
language, but not of Br cooking.

--
Katy Jennison

[Joe Fineman]

Bertel Lund Hansen <kanon...@lundhansen.dk> writes:

> In Denmark we can have "engelsk bøf" (English steak). Few Brits
> (if any) know what it is.

Likewise, in America, we have English muffins. I heard tell of a little
American girl who was introduced to the Queen & gave her a jar of orange
marmalade "to put on her English muffins". Alas, Her Majesty had to
look it up.
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net

||: Climate is what we expect; weather is what we get. :||

[micky]

Also grilling can exist without a grate, I think. In sandwich shops
were the food is cooked on a hot solid metal sheet, isn't that called a
grill. Maybe it's tipped so the grease runs off.

What's a griddle?

>As with many food names, perhaps it's named for the restaurant where
>it was first devised.

--
Please say where you live, or what
area's English you are asking about.
So your question or answer makes sense.
. .
I have lived all my life in the USA,
Western Pa. Indianapolis, Chicago,
Brooklyn, Baltimore.

[micky]

ShopRite has the answer. There are just a few of them in Baltimore,
none very nearby. The one I go to sometimes is very nice, serviing a
middle income to wealthy set of customers.

>
>When I talk about my experiences with London broil, I am talking about
>the early to mid-1970s, and a neighbor turned my wife (ex) and I onto
>them.
>
>But that's the way it was: round and shoulder. The shoulder cut had
>more fat, and we most always bought the round cut.


--

[Peter T. Daniels]

How so? If they don't distinguish grilling from broiling, and they
saw instructions to "grill," would they just throw the item at
whichever heat source happened to be most convenient, and hope?

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Adam Funk skrev:

> Because "French" makes it sound classy, like with fries, or
> sticking your tongue down someone's throat.

Throat?

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 18:06:02 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>

They were very nice stores; I can only remember one in particular in
our general area.

Maybe an early version of Wegman's. A good selection of better foods
along with many extras. Not certain if you are familiar with that
chain.

http://www.wegmans.com/

About a previous comment:

("I cut meat for a living and just thought I should mention here that
flank steak is not the same thing as a london broil. There is a top
round london broil and a shoulder cut london broil, both of which are
very thick cuts (almost like roasts).... A flank steak is entirely
different and very thin cut - as the muscle is naturally thin and
small.")

http://allrecipes.com/recipe/london-broil-ii/

(recipe calls for "grilling".)

--

[Jenn]

On 4/19/2014 2:57 PM, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2014-04-19, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, April 19, 2014 3:19:26 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
>>> "Ann Marie Brest" wrote in message news:lis89i$v3o$1...@news.mixmin.net...
>>
>>>> I can't imagine why they call the cut London Broil, when I couldn't
>>>
>>>> find a single restaurant in the UK that was serving it.
>>>
>>> I'd certainly never heard of it. Wikipedia informs me:
>>> "London broil is a North American beef dish made by broiling or grilling
>>> marinated flank steak, then cutting it across the grain into thin strips.
>>> The origin of the name is obscure; the dish is unknown in the English city
>>> of London."
>>>
>>> We don't normally use the term "broiling" either; we call it "grilling".
>>> All very odd.
>>
>> Then what do you call grilling?
>
> barbecuing
>
>

Do you smoke meat, too?

--
Jenn

[Peter Moylan]

You can even buy something called a "vertical grill".

For me the primary meaning of "grill" is heat from above, with the meat
on a grille so that the fat drips away, but I recognise the other
variants. What they all seem to have in common are
- some way of letting the fat drip away; and
- a free flow of air, so that the cooking is done
by radiant heat rather than by baking.

I was shocked the first time I saw a griller inside an oven, but
eventually I came to realise that it's OK provided you keep the door
wide open, to let the hot air out.

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

[Peter Moylan]

The point remains that that was a name created by foreigners. The
Belgians themselves call them "frites" or "fritjes". (And don't consider
them to be French.)

[Rich Ulrich]

On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 00:36:30 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
<kanon...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

>Adam Funk skrev:
>
>> Because "French" makes it sound classy, like with fries, or
>> sticking your tongue down someone's throat.
>
>Throat?

- past the teeth, probably, as described
by someone whose passion is confusing
two different sexual encounters.

--
Rich Ulrich

[Mark Brader]

Adam Funk quotes "Dharma and Greg":

>>> Because "French" makes it sound classy, like with fries, or
>>> sticking your tongue down someone's throat.

Bertel Lund Hansen:
>> Throat?

Rich Ulrich:

> - past the teeth, probably, as described
> by someone whose passion is confusing
> two different sexual encounters.

It's a *joke*, people. A throwaway one, a simple exaggeration.
--
Mark Brader "It's okay to have our own language if we feel
Toronto we need it, but why does it have to be used
m...@vex.net as a nose to look down?" -- Becky Slocombe

[Guy Barry]

"Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message

news:15885eb5-e797-4641...@googlegroups.com...

>How so? If they don't distinguish grilling from broiling, and they
>saw instructions to "grill," would they just throw the item at
>whichever heat source happened to be most convenient, and hope?

"Grill under a medium heat for five minutes" is unambiguous. In practice I
think "grill" generally has this meaning in British recipes, as cookers
aren't usually equipped with a grill that works from below.

--
Guy Barry

[occam]

On 19/04/2014 00:17, Ann Marie Brest wrote:
> I can't imagine why they call the cut London Broil, when I couldn't
> find a single restaurant in the UK that was serving it.
>

Same reason why they call it 'Black Forest Gateaux' in the UK, but you
cannot find it in Bavaria. Ditto 'Danish pastry' (which the Danes call
English pastry), and 'French Custard' which the French call 'Crème
Anglaise'. The list is endless.

[Mike Barnes]

occam wrote:
> Same reason why they call it 'Black Forest Gateaux' in the UK,

Oy!

--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

[David D S]

only if tobacco isn't available

--
David D S: UK and PR China. (Native BrEng speaker)
Use Reply-To header for email. This email address will be
valid for at least 2 weeks from 2014/4/20 17:21:12

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

occam skrev:

> Same reason why they call it 'Black Forest Gateaux' in the UK, but you
> cannot find it in Bavaria. Ditto 'Danish pastry' (which the Danes call
> English pastry)

I have never come across anything in a Danish baker's shop that
is called anything with "engelsk".

Real Danish pastry is called "wienerbrød" or "basser" depending
on which group it belongs to. There are more specific names for
each kind, some of them from slang like "the baker's bad eye".

"Wienerbrød" means "bread from Vienna" and is so called because
it was invented (in Denmark) by a Viennese who moved to
Copenhagen and called his shop "Wienerbageriet" (-bakery).
Germans call it "Copenhagener".

"Basser" is/was a jocular designation. It means "grunt"
(military) or "big (fat) guy".

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Guy Barry]

"Guy Barry" wrote in message news:OaK4v.49207$ub6....@fx35.am4...

Does the similarity in sound between "broil" and "boil" ever lead to
confusion in American cookery? I can imagine that an instruction to "broil
the chicken" might easily be misinterpreted as "boil the chicken" or vice
versa, especially in a busy kitchen.

--
Guy Barry

[James Hogg]

occam wrote:
> On 19/04/2014 00:17, Ann Marie Brest wrote:
>> I can't imagine why they call the cut London Broil, when I couldn't
>> find a single restaurant in the UK that was serving it.
>>
>
> Same reason why they call it 'Black Forest Gateaux' in the UK, but
> you cannot find it in Bavaria.

Oh yes you can. You can even find it in Baden-Württemberg, where the
Black Forest is.

> Ditto 'Danish pastry' (which the Danes call English pastry),

The Danes call it "Wienerbrød" (Viennese bread).

> The list is endless.

It's just lost two items.

--
James

[Katy Jennison]

Yes. And as Adam said, in Br grilling from below is done on a barbecue.
(That's in a domestic setting: restaurants and similar may have other
arrangements.) The instructions in that case might be something like
"Cook on a barbecue grill". For plain "grill", the usual default would
be heat from above. In the absence of a toaster, Brits make toast under
a grill.

--
Katy Jennison

[John Holmes]

David D S wrote:

> Jenn wrote:
>>
>> Do you smoke meat, too?
>
> only if tobacco isn't available

That's the other way of rolling a joint.

--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au

[charles]

In article <lj09se$on1$1...@news.albasani.net>,

or on top of an Aga

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[Guy Barry]

It's just occurred to me that when Alice asks Humpty Dumpty to explain the
meanings of the "hard words" in Jabberwocky, he starts by saying " 'BRILLIG'
means four o'clock in the afternoon - the time when you begin BROILING
things for dinner". The term "broil" was clearly in use in BrE at the time,
so when did it go out of use? Did it mean the same thing as it now means in
AmE?

--
Guy Barry

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

OED:

broil, v.1

1. trans. To burn, to char with fire. Obs.

c1375 - 1568

2. spec. To cook (meat) by placing it on the fire, or on a gridiron
over it; to grill.

c1386 Chaucer Prol. l. 385 He koude rooste and seethe and
broille & frye..and wel bake a pye.
1483 Cath. Angl. 45 Brule, assare.
1616 B. Jonson Every Man in his Humor (rev. ed.) i. i, in Wks. I.
13 The first red herring, that was broil'd in Adam, and Eve's
kitchin.
1653 I. Walton Compl. Angler 57 Broil him [chub] upon wood-cole
or char-cole.
1769 E. Raffald Experienced Eng. Housekeeper (1778) 71 To broil
Mutton Steaks.
1835 W. Irving Tour Prairies 117 An evening banquet of
venison..roasted, or broiled on the coals.
1853 Arab. Nts. (Rtldg.) 621 Our gridiron is only fit to broil
small fish.

Non-culinary senses:

3. To scorch; to make very hot, to heat.
1635 E. Rainbow Labour 18 Let not his hot pursuit broyle him in
an Ægyptian furnace.
1718 Lady M. W. Montagu Let. 31 July (1965) I. 426, I was..halfe
broil'd in the Sun.
....

4.
a. intr. To be subjected to great heat, to be very hot. (Mainly in
to be broiling , for to be a-broiling .)
1623 Shakespeare & J. Fletcher Henry VIII iv. i. 57 God saue you
Sir, Where haue you bin broiling? Among the crow'd i'th' Abbey.
....
1883 Leisure Hour 148/1 Don't keep us broiling here for ever!

b. intr. To grow hot; esp. fig. to become heated with excitement,
anger, etc. ? Obs.

c. Said of passion, emotion, etc.: To burn, glow, be ardent.

{This entry has not yet been fully updated (first published 1888).}

There are no additions.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Katy Jennison]

So these all have the fire underneath the thing cooking.

--
Katy Jennison

[Peter T. Daniels]

I suspect that by "cooker" you mean 'stove' (a "cooker" Over Here is
an appliance, usu. qualified, e.g. "pressure cooker," "slow cooker,"
"rice cooker").

A US gas stove (unfortunately electric ones may be gaining in popularity)
normally has an oven and a broiler. The oven is above the heat source,
and when the flames serve the oven, the thermostat turns them on and
off to maintain a constant temperature in the oven -- essential for
both baking and roasting, the two primary activities of an oven. The
rack(s) can be adjusted vertically to place them closer to or farther
from the heat source.

The broiler is a less high space beneath the heat source, and when it
is in use, the flames burn at full strength. (A single dial serves
both functions, calibrated between 250 and 600 [F] with "BROIL" at
the top end, which turns off the thermostat function.) Again the platform
(more supportive than a mere rack, because meat normally wouldn't be
placed in a removable pan for broiling; it's turned over after a few
minutes) is vertically adjustable, and there's a built-in pan beneath
to catch the drippings (it slides out for cleaning).

Someone mentioned leaving the oven door open to allow hot air to
escape. I suspect that person has never baked a cake.

[Peter T. Daniels]

It seems unlikely, given the desired end product in each case.

It seems unlikely that such an instruction would be given in a busy
kitchen, where the menu is planned out and "prepped" in advance and
individual portions are prepared as they are ordered.

But you'd usually broil chicken with a rotisserie, which provides radiant
heat from all (or as many as possible) sides, with the item turning on a
spit.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, April 20, 2014 7:05:52 AM UTC-4, James Hogg wrote:

> occam wrote:

> > Ditto 'Danish pastry' (which the Danes call English pastry),
>
> The Danes call it "Wienerbrød" (Viennese bread).
>
> > The list is endless.
>
> It's just lost two items.

But a "danish" isn't a specific item -- just about any individually
baked sweet yeast pastry, whatever its topping or filling, is a danish.
Cheese danish and cherry danish are very popular, but if someone sent
you out for danish and you came back with bearclaws or even black-and-
whites, there wouldn't be much complaining.

Donuts ("doughnuts") aren't baked but deep-fried; croissants are
mille-feuilles rather than yeast, so the filled ones (e.g. chocolate,
which aren't crescent-shaped anyway), though sweet, aren't danishes,
either.

Is a Wienerbrød a specific item, or is it a similarly general term?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, April 20, 2014 9:33:55 AM UTC-4, Katy Jennison wrote:
> On 20/04/2014 13:50, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:

> > [OED "broil"]

>
> So these all have the fire underneath the thing cooking.

What arrangement could there have been for placing the thing underneath
the fire, before gas or (shudder) electric cooking was invented?

Other, of course, than burying things (fish?) in the embers, for a
gentle process, or a clambake (New England) or luau (Hawai`i), where
the comestibles are buried in a (shallow) pit and the fire constructed
above -- a process that requires a very great deal of patience.

[Guy Barry]

"Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message

news:88c415e9-09f9-4ea7...@googlegroups.com...

>
>On Sunday, April 20, 2014 2:54:37 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:

>> "Grill under a medium heat for five minutes" is unambiguous. In practice
>> I
>> think "grill" generally has this meaning in British recipes, as cookers
>> aren't usually equipped with a grill that works from below.
>
>I suspect that by "cooker" you mean 'stove' (a "cooker" Over Here is
>an appliance, usu. qualified, e.g. "pressure cooker," "slow cooker,"
>"rice cooker").

The word "stove" seems to be going out of fashion over here. My grandmother
used to refer to the appliance as a "stove", but I would call it a "cooker"
(whether gas or electric). We also use the term "cooker" in the other
contexts you mention.

>A US gas stove (unfortunately electric ones may be gaining in popularity)
>normally has an oven and a broiler.

Ours would have a number of boiling rings as well.

>The oven is above the heat source,
>and when the flames serve the oven, the thermostat turns them on and
>off to maintain a constant temperature in the oven -- essential for
>both baking and roasting, the two primary activities of an oven. The
>rack(s) can be adjusted vertically to place them closer to or farther
>from the heat source.
>
>The broiler is a less high space beneath the heat source, and when it
>is in use, the flames burn at full strength. (A single dial serves
>both functions, calibrated between 250 and 600 [F] with "BROIL" at
>the top end, which turns off the thermostat function.) Again the platform
>(more supportive than a mere rack, because meat normally wouldn't be
>placed in a removable pan for broiling; it's turned over after a few
>minutes) is vertically adjustable, and there's a built-in pan beneath
>to catch the drippings (it slides out for cleaning).

We have those as well, but do you have the type with the separate grill
(i.e. broiler) at the top of the appliance? That's what I'm more familiar
with.

--
Guy Barry

[Katy Jennison]

Baking requires the oven door to be closed. Grilling (BrE meaning), in
a BrE oven, normally requires the door to be open, otherwise the whole
shebang overheats.

--
Katy Jennison

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, April 20, 2014 9:52:46 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
> "Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message
> news:88c415e9-09f9-4ea7...@googlegroups.com...
> >On Sunday, April 20, 2014 2:54:37 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:

> >> "Grill under a medium heat for five minutes" is unambiguous. In practice
> >> I
> >> think "grill" generally has this meaning in British recipes, as cookers
> >> aren't usually equipped with a grill that works from below.
> >I suspect that by "cooker" you mean 'stove' (a "cooker" Over Here is
> >an appliance, usu. qualified, e.g. "pressure cooker," "slow cooker,"
> >"rice cooker").
>
> The word "stove" seems to be going out of fashion over here. My grandmother
> used to refer to the appliance as a "stove", but I would call it a "cooker"
> (whether gas or electric). We also use the term "cooker" in the other
> contexts you mention.

I think it's unusual for a word for such a common distinction to go
completely out of use.

> >A US gas stove (unfortunately electric ones may be gaining in popularity)
> >normally has an oven and a broiler.
>
> Ours would have a number of boiling rings as well.

If that means 'burners' -- the things you put the pots and pans on --
then Duh. Normally there are four. You can get a flat sheet to lay
over two of them to use as a griddle for pancakes (since you can't
make enough pancakes in one frying pan for even a single serving).

(Frying pan = skillet.)

> >The oven is above the heat source,
> >and when the flames serve the oven, the thermostat turns them on and
> >off to maintain a constant temperature in the oven -- essential for
> >both baking and roasting, the two primary activities of an oven. The
> >rack(s) can be adjusted vertically to place them closer to or farther
> >from the heat source.
> >The broiler is a less high space beneath the heat source, and when it
> >is in use, the flames burn at full strength. (A single dial serves
> >both functions, calibrated between 250 and 600 [F] with "BROIL" at
> >the top end, which turns off the thermostat function.) Again the platform
> >(more supportive than a mere rack, because meat normally wouldn't be
> >placed in a removable pan for broiling; it's turned over after a few
> >minutes) is vertically adjustable, and there's a built-in pan beneath
> >to catch the drippings (it slides out for cleaning).
>
> We have those as well, but do you have the type with the separate grill
> (i.e. broiler) at the top of the appliance? That's what I'm more familiar
> with.

I think that may be what's depicted in turn-of-the-20th-century
advertisements and Sears Catalogs. These days, kitchens tend to
look like Rachael Ray's TV kitchen, with a stack of at least
three spaces: an oven, a broiler, and a microwave, and probably
by now there are some built-in "convection ovens," too.

Katy mentioned the "barbecue" for grilling -- but the barbecue is a
brick structure out in the back yard (BrE garden?)! Or a rickety
sort of thing on a tripod with wheels. They usually use charcoal
briquets, though possibly some home barbecuers might also use
wood. One might use a hibachi (small Japanese cast-iron barbecue)
on one's apartment balcony, but all indoor grilling is strongly
discouraged because of both the fire hazard and the emission of
noxious gases, notably CO, in confined spaces.

NB Related to but distinct from the _foods_ called barbecue,
discussed recently, with different referents in different places.

[Tak To]

On 4/19/2014 6:06 PM, micky wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 13:13:48 -0700, Mack A. Damia
> <mybaco...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 16:01:22 -0400, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/19/2014 1:11 PM, Mack A. Damia wrote:

>>>> On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 14:15:31 +0100, "Guy Barry"
>>>> <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message

>>>>> news:e7ebc7cb-c371-44d8...@googlegroups.com...

>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Saturday, April 19, 2014 3:19:26 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> We don't normally use the term "broiling" either; we call it "grilling".
>>>>>>> All very odd.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then what do you call grilling?
>>>>>>

>>>>>> Broiling: intense heat from above. Grilling: intense heat from below,
>>>>>> using a grate so that the (formerly icky) fats drip away from the meat.
>>>>>
>>>>> They're both called "grilling" in BrE. You can grill food from either side,
>>>>> or both at once.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grilling
>>>>

>>>> We made them a lot in the 1970s when I was married. A local
>>>> supermarket chain, Shopright, seemed to specialize in them.
>>>>
>>>> Two different cuts: shoulder and round. The round was more
>>>> expensive.
>>>
>>> I have never heard of of a London Broil (cut) that is
>> >from the shoulder (chuck). Chuck is in general tougher
>>> than round, so it it used mainly for stew.
>>>
>>> Incidentally, there is a local supermarket chain called
>>> "ShopRite" here in New Jersey.
>>
>> I don't know, they closed all of their stores in the Reading -
>> Allentown, PA area, but I haven't lived there for fifteen years, so
>> they could have reopened under new management.
>
> ShopRite has the answer. There are just a few of them in Baltimore,
> none very nearby. The one I go to sometimes is very nice, serviing a
> middle income to wealthy set of customers.

Here in New Jersey ShopRite chain is the one with the
least fancy-most inexpensive produce merchandise. It
is doing quite well. The other "inexpensive" chains
seem to be dying -- Acme, Pathmark, etc. The small
number of A&P's seem to have been converted to cater
to customers of higher income.

>> When I talk about my experiences with London broil, I am talking about
>> the early to mid-1970s, and a neighbor turned my wife (ex) and I onto
>> them.
>>
>> But that's the way it was: round and shoulder. The shoulder cut had
>> more fat, and we most always bought the round cut.

Tak
--
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

[Peter T. Daniels]

Broiling is done with the door closed both because of the intense heat
and because it's a brief procedure -- a few minutes per side for a
normal steak, a bit longer for a thick one.

[Tak To]

> When I talk about my experiences with London broil, I am talking about
> the early to mid-1970s, and a neighbor turned my wife (ex) and I onto
> them.
>
> But that's the way it was: round and shoulder. The shoulder cut had
> more fat, and we most always bought the round cut.

Interesting. Btw, did they actually use the word
"shoulder"? I have not seen "shoulder" as a cut
of beef either.

When I was get bread and cold cut last night at
the supermarket closest to my home (a "Stop & Shop"),
I found that they don't have any London Broil.
They have flank steak as well as skirt steak (a
inexpensive cut that has become quite the fashion).
However, the cold cut department has a "London
Broil" roast beef from Boar's Head (a national brand),
and the label states that it is from the top round.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 07:03:20 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Sunday, April 20, 2014 9:52:46 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
>> "Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message
>> news:88c415e9-09f9-4ea7...@googlegroups.com...
>> >On Sunday, April 20, 2014 2:54:37 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
>
>> >> "Grill under a medium heat for five minutes" is unambiguous. In practice
>> >> I
>> >> think "grill" generally has this meaning in British recipes, as cookers
>> >> aren't usually equipped with a grill that works from below.
>> >I suspect that by "cooker" you mean 'stove' (a "cooker" Over Here is
>> >an appliance, usu. qualified, e.g. "pressure cooker," "slow cooker,"
>> >"rice cooker").
>>
>> The word "stove" seems to be going out of fashion over here. My grandmother
>> used to refer to the appliance as a "stove", but I would call it a "cooker"
>> (whether gas or electric). We also use the term "cooker" in the other
>> contexts you mention.
>
>I think it's unusual for a word for such a common distinction to go
>completely out of use.
>
>> >A US gas stove (unfortunately electric ones may be gaining in popularity)
>> >normally has an oven and a broiler.
>>
>> Ours would have a number of boiling rings as well.
>
>If that means 'burners' -- the things you put the pots and pans on --
>then Duh.

An oven which includes a grill does not necessarily have a hob
(rings/burners).

This, for instance, is a double oven with a grill in the top oven. It
has no hob.
http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/built-in-appliances/built-in-cooking/ovens/built-under-ovens/aeg-nc4003020m-electric-built-under-double-oven-stainless-steel-10965057-pdt.html#longDesc
or
http://tinyurl.com/kd2jgbh

These are separate hobs that can be positioned in the kitchen away from
the oven(s).
http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/built-in-appliances/built-in-cooking/hobs-3818-m.html

[LFS]

On 20/04/2014 14:58, Katy Jennison wrote:
>>
>
> Baking requires the oven door to be closed. Grilling (BrE meaning), in
> a BrE oven, normally requires the door to be open, otherwise the whole
> shebang overheats.
>

My oven requires the door to be closed while grilling, which was very
difficult to get used to.

--
Laura (emulate St George for email)

[Whiskers]

On 2014-04-20, Mike Barnes <mikeba...@gmail.com> wrote:
> occam wrote:
>> Same reason why they call it 'Black Forest Gateaux' in the UK,
>
> Oy!

One is never enough.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

[Whiskers]

Only if you're saddled with one of those foreign abominations that uses
the same space as either oven or grill (or a "Baby Belling"). Some
British kitchens are lumbered with the sort of 'two box' arrangement
described by PTD, but in my experience people who buy those typically
don't know what to do with them.

A "stove" is something that contains a fire of some sort, not
necessarily used for cooking, but which isn't a "fire-place". A "cooker"
combines oven, hot-plate(s) and/or "boiling rings", "grill", and
possibly other facilities; the grill will have the heat directed
downwards onto the food, and may be at waist level beneath the hot-plate
or at eye level - where the handle of the grill pan is ideally placed
for catching one in the face when inspecting the progress of things in
sauce-pans on the "hob". The grill is not usually enclosed, although
some cookers with waist level grills above the oven do have a drop-down
door for neatness when not in use or for plate-warming if the grill
isn't required as such.

A "cooker" could be a "stove" if it has gas flames in it, or burns wood
or coal etc. Cookers and stoves are usually free-standing things, ovens
can be part of something else.

The cooker I had most success with was in a rented flat, where it had
been installed at some time in the early 20th century and the legs had
sunk into the floorboards from the weight of the cast iron. The oven
had a pipe with a row of gas burners at the back of its floor and a knob
on the side of the cooker for adjusting the flames; the hob had four gas
burners individually controlled by brass levers, and one of those
burners was in the shape of a ring and could be turned upside down to
make the space below function as a grill. Such a cooker probably
wouldn't be allowed these days, as it had no safety features at all, but
it worked beautifully. It would also fall into the category "stove" -
indeed, I think the maker's badge included that word.

[Katy Jennison]

On 20/04/2014 15:47, LFS wrote:
> On 20/04/2014 14:58, Katy Jennison wrote:
>>>
>>
>> Baking requires the oven door to be closed. Grilling (BrE meaning), in
>> a BrE oven, normally requires the door to be open, otherwise the whole
>> shebang overheats.
>>
>
> My oven requires the door to be closed while grilling, which was very
> difficult to get used to.
>

I think I must be behind the times. But, come to think of it, our
multi-purpose microwave has the door closed for grilling. I take it all
back.

--
Katy Jennison

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Whiskers skrev:

> A "stove" is something that contains a fire of some sort, not
> necessarily used for cooking, but which isn't a "fire-place".

What you call "cooker" is called "(kitchen) range" in an American
program I have. Why "range"?

In Danish we use the English word "cooker" for a special faucet
that is mounted next to a normal faucet at a kitchen sink. The
special one will deliver boiling water on the fly and has a
safety device so kids can't turn it on. What do you and other
English-speaking persons call that?

--
Bertel, Denmark

[musika]

The hot tap.

--
Ray
UK

[Guy Barry]

"musika" wrote in message news:lj0sg6$tf0$1...@dont-email.me...

My hot tap doesn't deliver boiling water, nor would I wish it to. I'd have
scalded myself by now.

--
Guy Barry

[Guy Barry]

"Guy Barry" wrote in message news:qGS4v.41550$sa2....@fx33.am4...

Bertel must be talking about one of these: the Quooker, "a 100% Dutch
invention taking over the world".

http://www.quooker.co.uk/enuk

--
Guy Barry

[Tak To]

By "top", do you mean _outside_ or _inside_ the
appliance?

If outside, it is called a "grill". A separate
rectangular grill besides the "burners" seems
to be going in and out of fashion all the time.
I don't see them lately. It could be regional.
Some of these grills have air intakes at the sides
(and a built-in fan) to help removing the smoke
quickly.

As for inside, I have only seen it in restaurant
appliances. (However, the current fashion trend
is to use professional appliances at home.) The
heating element in a restaurant broiler is
movable. One can move it to various fixed
heights with a handle. Say you are broiling a
number of steaks. You raise the heating element,
put on the steaks, and then lower the heating
element to the proper height.

Btw, I have seen restaurants advertising "flame
broiled" steaks. It seems an oxymoron to me.
If the flame meets the meat then it is grilling
by me.

[Tak To]

It does not have a "top" side either. Yes,
built-in-the-wall appliances exist in the US
too.

> These are separate hobs that can be positioned in the kitchen away from
> the oven(s).
> http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/built-in-appliances/built-in-cooking/hobs-3818-m.html

I think the AmE word for "hob" is "cooking top".

[Tak To]

Also distinct _methods_ of cooking. A vociferous portion
of the US population distinguishes barbecuing (slow) from
grilling/broiling (fast). Smoking is a form of barbecuing
for these people.

[Guy Barry]

"Tak To" wrote in message news:lj0tln$6mr$1...@dont-email.me...

>
>On 4/20/2014 9:52 AM, Guy Barry wrote:

>> We have those as well, but do you have the type with the separate grill
>> (i.e. broiler) at the top of the appliance? That's what I'm more
>> familiar
>> with.
>
>By "top", do you mean _outside_ or _inside_ the
>appliance?

I mean this type of thing:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/bhp/gas-cooker-level-grill

There's what I'd call a "grill", which cooks with heat from above, at the
top. The hob is below that, and the oven is below that.

--
Guy Barry

[Whiskers]

On 2014-04-20, Bertel Lund Hansen <kanon...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
> Whiskers skrev:
>
>> A "stove" is something that contains a fire of some sort, not
>> necessarily used for cooking, but which isn't a "fire-place".
>
> What you call "cooker" is called "(kitchen) range" in an American
> program I have. Why "range"?

To me, a "kitchen range" is an iron cooker inserted into the large open
hearth of a pre-industrial kitchen; the wood or coal fire is surrounded
by a range of devices such as ovens, grills, griddles, hot-plates,
spits, hot water tanks, and so on. Early ones can be very quirky and
strange, built individually to fit a particular space and to suit a
particular cook. Later ones are more standardised free-standing things,
the acme being the current "Aga" "Esse" and "Rayburn" models, or
"Rangemaster Kitchener" - some of which use gas or oil or even
electricity. Some makers of less luxurious cookers also refer to their
largest models as "ranges".

A "cottage range" is a small solid-fuel stove with oven and hot plate
and little else, fitted into small dwellings meant for low-paid workers
mostly in the late 19th or early 20th centuries.

> In Danish we use the English word "cooker" for a special faucet
> that is mounted next to a normal faucet at a kitchen sink. The
> special one will deliver boiling water on the fly and has a
> safety device so kids can't turn it on. What do you and other
> English-speaking persons call that?

BrE for "faucet" is "tap", but boiling water on tap is too rare for us
to have a special word for the delivery nozzle. Hot water, for washing
not cooking or drinking, comes from a "hot tap", so I would expect
boiling water to come from a "boil[ing|er] tap".

A domestic kitchen will have one or more "kettles" for boiling water as
required; commercial or institutional kitchens often have an "urn" or
"boiler" which is in effect a large kettle with a tap at the bottom for
drawing off water; not unlike a "samovar" in function - but almost
always electrically heated.

[Tak To]

Few American homes not have this. Typically,
there is a large hot water tank holding hot
(140F) water for the entire household. In New
Jersey (colder than London in general) 60 gallon
(US gallon) is about the norm for small homes.
Because of mineral built-up in the water tank
over the years, most people do not use the
household hot water supply for cooking or
drinking.

An American kitchen might have a separate drinking
water tap installed next to the kitchen faucet.
Usually there is an additional filtration system
involved. Some of these taps have an electric
coil so that one has the option to have instant
hot drinking water.

Btw, the US has outlawed separate hot and cold
water flow controls for faucets in the kitchen
and bathroom as well as shower heads. This is
to prevent people from turning on (only) the
hot water by accident.

The Japanese make a table top electric hot water
container (4 litre) that keeps water at near
boiling temperature. It is very convenient for
people who like to have tea at all hours of the
day (but don't trust the microwave).

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

musika skrev:

> The hot tap.

The hot tap delivers water at about 65 °C. The faucet I am
talking about, delivers water at about 99 °C.

It's not common to have such one in Denmark. Most people use an
electric 'kettle'.

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Tak To]

On 4/20/2014 5:26 AM, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> occam skrev:
>
>> Same reason why they call it 'Black Forest Gateaux' in the UK, but you
>> cannot find it in Bavaria. Ditto 'Danish pastry' (which the Danes call
>> English pastry)
>
> I have never come across anything in a Danish baker's shop that
> is called anything with "engelsk".
>
> Real Danish pastry is called "wienerbrød" or "basser" depending
> on which group it belongs to. There are more specific names for
> each kind, some of them from slang like "the baker's bad eye".
>
> "Wienerbrød" means "bread from Vienna" and is so called because
> it was invented (in Denmark) by a Viennese who moved to
> Copenhagen and called his shop "Wienerbageriet" (-bakery).
> Germans call it "Copenhagener".
>
> "Basser" is/was a jocular designation. It means "grunt"
> (military) or "big (fat) guy".

What are these cookies called in Denmark?
http://www.royal-dansk.com/

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 10:20:20 -0400, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx>

Maybe you missed this from a previous reply:

("I cut meat for a living and just thought I should mention here that
flank steak is not the same thing as a london broil. There is a top
round london broil and a shoulder cut london broil, both of which are
very thick cuts (almost like roasts).... A flank steak is entirely
different and very thin cut - as the muscle is naturally thin and
small.")

http://allrecipes.com/recipe/london-broil-ii/

(recipe calls for "grilling".)

>When I was get bread and cold cut last night at
>the supermarket closest to my home (a "Stop & Shop"),
>I found that they don't have any London Broil.
>They have flank steak as well as skirt steak (a
>inexpensive cut that has become quite the fashion).
>However, the cold cut department has a "London
>Broil" roast beef from Boar's Head (a national brand),
>and the label states that it is from the top round.

Michael Quinion and I have been discussing the origins of "Brown
Windsor soup" (see the first response to the OP's question).

I sent him a message yesterday about my idea about the origin of the
name "London Broil" - to give an inexpensive and, perhaps, tough cut
of beef an air of respectability. Same with Brown Windsor soup -
ordinary, common brown soup made respectable by adding the name
"Windsor".

He replied back to me this morning with thanks. Seems to be a logical
explanation - maybe one restaurant starting using the name(s) and the
practice caught on.

--

[micky]

On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 15:40:44 -0700, Mack A. Damia
<mybaco...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 18:06:02 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
>wrote:
>

>>On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 13:13:48 -0700, Mack A. Damia

>>ShopRite has the answer. There are just a few of them in Baltimore,
>>none very nearby. The one I go to sometimes is very nice, serviing a
>>middle income to wealthy set of customers.
>

>They were very nice stores; I can only remember one in particular in
>our general area.
>
>Maybe an early version of Wegman's. A good selection of better foods
>along with many extras. Not certain if you are familiar with that
>chain.
>
>http://www.wegmans.com/

There's one Wegman's in Baltimore, but pretty far away. Sometimes I'm
over there for other reasons.

But a new one is opening as soon as the clear the land and build it,
only 2 or 3 miles and where I already go fairly often.


>About a previous comment:

>
>("I cut meat for a living and just thought I should mention here that
>flank steak is not the same thing as a london broil. There is a top
>round london broil and a shoulder cut london broil, both of which are
>very thick cuts (almost like roasts).... A flank steak is entirely
>different and very thin cut - as the muscle is naturally thin and
>small.")

I missed this the first itme, but it makes sense. I've seen flank steak,
and I've felt my flanks (whose muscles are a lot punier than a cow's)
And I've seen what they call London broil.

>
>http://allrecipes.com/recipe/london-broil-ii/
>
>(recipe calls for "grilling".)

--
Please say where you live, or what
area's English you are asking about.
So your question or answer makes sense.
. .
I have lived all my life in the USA,
Western Pa. Indianapolis, Chicago,
Brooklyn, Baltimore.

[micky]

On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 10:05:30 -0400, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx> wrote:

>
>>> I don't know, they closed all of their stores in the Reading -
>>> Allentown, PA area, but I haven't lived there for fifteen years, so
>>> they could have reopened under new management.
>>
>> ShopRite has the answer. There are just a few of them in Baltimore,
>> none very nearby. The one I go to sometimes is very nice, serviing a
>> middle income to wealthy set of customers.
>
>Here in New Jersey ShopRite chain is the one with the
>least fancy-most inexpensive produce merchandise. It
>is doing quite well. The other "inexpensive" chains
>seem to be dying -- Acme, Pathmark, etc. The small
>number of A&P's seem to have been converted to cater
>to customers of higher income.

Very interesting. I think I"m glad I wasn't in marketing.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 14:33:55 +0100, Katy Jennison
<ka...@spamtrap.kjennison.com> wrote:

>So these all have the fire underneath the thing cooking.

I will always be convinced that the best way to cook meat - a steak or
pork chops - maybe even a London Broil - is to pan fry it.

Sear on both sides and fry until medium-rare.

--

[Tak To]

On 4/20/2014 9:46 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Sunday, April 20, 2014 7:05:52 AM UTC-4, James Hogg wrote:
>> occam wrote:
>
>>> Ditto 'Danish pastry' (which the Danes call English pastry),
>>
>> The Danes call it "Wienerbrød" (Viennese bread).
>>
>>> The list is endless.
>>
>> It's just lost two items.
>
> But a "danish" isn't a specific item -- just about any individually
> baked sweet yeast pastry, whatever its topping or filling, is a danish.
> Cheese danish and cherry danish are very popular, but if someone sent
> you out for danish and you came back with bearclaws or even black-and-
> whites, there wouldn't be much complaining.
>
> Donuts ("doughnuts") aren't baked but deep-fried; croissants are
> mille-feuilles

"Puff Pastry Dough"

> rather than yeast, so the filled ones (e.g. chocolate,
> which aren't crescent-shaped anyway), though sweet, aren't danishes,
> either.

[charles]

In article <0iO4v.105055$Yq5....@fx28.am4>, Guy Barry
<guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> It's just occurred to me that when Alice asks Humpty Dumpty to explain
> the meanings of the "hard words" in Jabberwocky, he starts by saying "
> 'BRILLIG' means four o'clock in the afternoon - the time when you begin
> BROILING things for dinner". The term "broil" was clearly in use in BrE
> at the time, so when did it go out of use? Did it mean the same thing
> as it now means in AmE?

My Chambers Dictionary says it means "Grill over hot coals" - waht we now
call "barbecuing"

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 13:27:02 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 10:05:30 -0400, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx> wrote:
>
>>
>>>> I don't know, they closed all of their stores in the Reading -
>>>> Allentown, PA area, but I haven't lived there for fifteen years, so
>>>> they could have reopened under new management.
>>>
>>> ShopRite has the answer. There are just a few of them in Baltimore,
>>> none very nearby. The one I go to sometimes is very nice, serviing a
>>> middle income to wealthy set of customers.
>>
>>Here in New Jersey ShopRite chain is the one with the
>>least fancy-most inexpensive produce merchandise. It
>>is doing quite well. The other "inexpensive" chains
>>seem to be dying -- Acme, Pathmark, etc. The small
>>number of A&P's seem to have been converted to cater
>>to customers of higher income.
>
>Very interesting. I think I"m glad I wasn't in marketing.

Interesting about A & P. It was the leader for decades among the
large grocery chains, but it declined because of bad management and
bad decisions. One thing was that they did not move out to the
suburbs when everybody else did. For the most part, they remained in
the city.

In 1972 in a Marketing course at Penn State we did a research project
of comparing all of the major grocery store chains in the Reading, PA
area. We compared dozens of items in each store and noted its price.
Then we did a statistical analysis. We found that Weis Markets were
the least expensive. A & P stores were among the most expensive.
along with ShopRight.

I guess Weis Markets are still around, but not on the West Coast.
Haven't seen an Acme for decades. In the 1950s/60s, there was a large
chain that competed with Acme called "Food Fair". Now it is called
"Pantry Pride".

--

[Mark Brader]

Bertel Lund Hansen:

> What you call "cooker" is called "(kitchen) range" in an American
> program I have. Why "range"?

I have no idea.

> In Danish we use the English word "cooker" for a special faucet
> that is mounted next to a normal faucet at a kitchen sink. The
> special one will deliver boiling water on the fly and has a
> safety device so kids can't turn it on. What do you and other
> English-speaking persons call that?

Never heard of such a setup. I suppose I'd call it a boiling-water tap.
The only English-speaking country where I've encountered tap water
anywhere near the boiling point was Australia, and there it came from
the ordinary hot-water tap. (I happened to be traveling with a
thermometer that I could confirm the temperature with.)
--
Mark Brader "Finally no number of additional epicycles can
Toronto hide the fact that We've Got a Problem Here."
m...@vex.net -- from a science book club promotion

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 13:14:49 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

>Bertel Lund Hansen:
>> What you call "cooker" is called "(kitchen) range" in an American
>> program I have. Why "range"?
>
>I have no idea.

OED isn't much help, but my thought is that the device has to have a
variety (or "range") of cooking mechanisms. A range has both an oven
and burners, maybe a grill or broiler.

--

[Tak To]

I haven't seen these.

The ones I was talking about were
http://www.thermador.com/Public/Images/seoImages/rangeGrill/rangeGrill1.jpg

and
http://www.pciwebdesigns.com/menj/broilers/frb36.gif

CORRECTION: in a restaurant broiler, it is the food tray
that can be moved up and down, not the heating element.

The older oven-on-top-of-broiler (shared heating
element) kind that PTD was talking about
http://www.110220volts.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/JBP66.jpg

The newer, more upscale dual-oven-cum-broiler type[*]
http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/300/33/33b51a23-4d56-4ed2-bad4-b775b876eaed_300.jpg

[*] Some have a broiler heating element in only of the ovens.

Apparently it is important to roast a turkey and bake a
pie at the same time.

[Tak To]

Or "cooktop".

[Katy Jennison]

Ah, yes. As Flanders & Swann remarked, "so that without you having to
bend down, the hot fat can spit straight in your eye."

--
Katy Jennison

[James Hogg]

Tak To wrote:
> On 4/20/2014 5:26 AM, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>> occam skrev:
>>
>>> Same reason why they call it 'Black Forest Gateaux' in the UK, but you
>>> cannot find it in Bavaria. Ditto 'Danish pastry' (which the Danes call
>>> English pastry)
>> I have never come across anything in a Danish baker's shop that
>> is called anything with "engelsk".
>>
>> Real Danish pastry is called "wienerbrød" or "basser" depending
>> on which group it belongs to. There are more specific names for
>> each kind, some of them from slang like "the baker's bad eye".
>>
>> "Wienerbrød" means "bread from Vienna" and is so called because
>> it was invented (in Denmark) by a Viennese who moved to
>> Copenhagen and called his shop "Wienerbageriet" (-bakery).
>> Germans call it "Copenhagener".
>>
>> "Basser" is/was a jocular designation. It means "grunt"
>> (military) or "big (fat) guy".
>
> What are these cookies called in Denmark?
> http://www.royal-dansk.com/

Their Danish website uses the term "smørbagte cookies"; "smørbagte"
means literally "butter-baked".

--
James

[musika]

On 20/04/2014 20:33, James Hogg wrote:

> Tak To wrote:
>> What are these cookies called in Denmark?
>> http://www.royal-dansk.com/
>
> Their Danish website uses the term "smørbagte cookies"; "smørbagte"
> means literally "butter-baked".
>

One of the first thing I saw on that page.
"royal-dansk.com uses cookies to improve your experience..."

--
Ray
UK

[Rich Ulrich]

On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 01:07:00 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

>Adam Funk quotes "Dharma and Greg":
>>>> Because "French" makes it sound classy, like with fries, or
>>>> sticking your tongue down someone's throat.
>
>Bertel Lund Hansen:
>>> Throat?
>
>Rich Ulrich:
>> - past the teeth, probably, as described
>> by someone whose passion is confusing
>> two different sexual encounters.
>
>It's a *joke*, people. A throwaway one, a simple exaggeration.

Oh, yeah, once you know it is a modern cliché.

These clichés - they lose their force.

--
Rich Ulrich

[James Hogg]

They put a lot of thought into that one.

--
James

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 20:41:57 +0100, musika <mUs...@NOSPAMexcite.com>
wrote:

>On 20/04/2014 20:33, James Hogg wrote:
>> Tak To wrote:
>>> What are these cookies called in Denmark?
>>> http://www.royal-dansk.com/
>>

>> Their Danish website uses the term "sm�rbagte cookies"; "sm�rbagte"

>> means literally "butter-baked".
>>
>One of the first thing I saw on that page.
>"royal-dansk.com uses cookies to improve your experience..."

One of our local markets had Royal Dansk Oat and Cranberry cookies at
Christmas. They were about $5.00 for a one pound tin. Only made at
Christmas as far as I know.

They turned out not to be a local favorite, and after Christmas, they
went on sale for about $1.00 per tin. I bought at least a dozen tins.
You can still buy last year's stock through Amazon, but the cheapest
price is about $15.00 including shipping.

Don't understand why they are only a Christmas specialty since they
are yummy with a cuppa; also why they are not enjoyed by locals
considering, say, that rice and beans are worshiped.

--

[Jenn]

On 4/20/2014 12:51 PM, Mack A. Damia wrote:

> Interesting about A & P. It was the leader for decades among the
> large grocery chains, but it declined because of bad management and
> bad decisions. One thing was that they did not move out to the
> suburbs when everybody else did. For the most part, they remained in
> the city.
>
> In 1972 in a Marketing course at Penn State we did a research project
> of comparing all of the major grocery store chains in the Reading, PA
> area. We compared dozens of items in each store and noted its price.
> Then we did a statistical analysis. We found that Weis Markets were
> the least expensive. A & P stores were among the most expensive.
> along with ShopRight.

What to you think Wal-mart should attribute it's success to? I remember
when they were just a small clothing type store, and then they changed
and became "super" Wal-marts where a person could shop for clothes,
other odds and end, and groceries at the same time.

--
Jenn

[Tak To]

On 4/20/2014 4:01 PM, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 20:41:57 +0100, musika <mUs...@NOSPAMexcite.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 20/04/2014 20:33, James Hogg wrote:
>>> Tak To wrote:
>>>> What are these cookies called in Denmark?
>>>> http://www.royal-dansk.com/
>>>
>>> Their Danish website uses the term "sm�rbagte cookies"; "sm�rbagte"
>>> means literally "butter-baked".
>>>
>> One of the first thing I saw on that page.
>> "royal-dansk.com uses cookies to improve your experience..."
>
> One of our local markets had Royal Dansk Oat and Cranberry cookies at
> Christmas. They were about $5.00 for a one pound tin. Only made at
> Christmas as far as I know.

I have never tried it, but the oat and cranberry
version looks very different from the "classic"
version and I would imagine that the taste would be
quite different too. The oat and cranberry version
looks like regular American cookies; whereas the
classic version has various traditional forms,
some of which are encrusted with sugar particles.

The texture of the "classic" version is like Scottish
shortbread (e.g., Walker), only more buttery and less
crumbly (due to the presence of egg white). Adding
oat (oatmeal?) would change the texture entirely.

Is cranberry a native Danish ingredient? If not,
then I think the oat and cranberry version was invented
specifically for the American market. "Oat" sounds
sound a lot healthier than "butter".

> They turned out not to be a local favorite, and after Christmas, they
> went on sale for about $1.00 per tin. I bought at least a dozen tins.
> You can still buy last year's stock through Amazon, but the cheapest
> price is about $15.00 including shipping.
>
> Don't understand why they are only a Christmas specialty since they
> are yummy with a cuppa; also why they are not enjoyed by locals
> considering, say, that rice and beans are worshiped.

Most people probably order them as gifts rather for
themselves. A lot of Americans consider cookies
"home made food" and feel guilty about buying
mass-produced ones.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 16:17:14 -0500, Jenn <therealm...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Lower prices than the competition.

--

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Tak To skrev:

> What are these cookies called in Denmark?
> http://www.royal-dansk.com/

"Småkager" - "smallcookies". "Kager" is ethymologically the same
word as "cakes", and we use the word about all kinds of
cookies/cakes.

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

James Hogg skrev:

> Their Danish website uses the term "smørbagte cookies"; "smørbagte"
> means literally "butter-baked".

That is a service to English-understanding people. The Danish
name is "småkager". They are baked in an ordinary way, but butter
is an ingredient.

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 17:20:00 -0400, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx>
wrote:

>On 4/20/2014 4:01 PM, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 20:41:57 +0100, musika <mUs...@NOSPAMexcite.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 20/04/2014 20:33, James Hogg wrote:
>>>> Tak To wrote:
>>>>> What are these cookies called in Denmark?
>>>>> http://www.royal-dansk.com/
>>>>

>>>> Their Danish website uses the term "smørbagte cookies"; "smørbagte"

>>>> means literally "butter-baked".
>>>>
>>> One of the first thing I saw on that page.
>>> "royal-dansk.com uses cookies to improve your experience..."
>>
>> One of our local markets had Royal Dansk Oat and Cranberry cookies at
>> Christmas. They were about $5.00 for a one pound tin. Only made at
>> Christmas as far as I know.
>
>I have never tried it, but the oat and cranberry
>version looks very different from the "classic"
>version and I would imagine that the taste would be
>quite different too. The oat and cranberry version
>looks like regular American cookies; whereas the
>classic version has various traditional forms,
>some of which are encrusted with sugar particles.
>
>The texture of the "classic" version is like Scottish
>shortbread (e.g., Walker), only more buttery and less
>crumbly (due to the presence of egg white). Adding
>oat (oatmeal?) would change the texture entirely.
>
>Is cranberry a native Danish ingredient? If not,
>then I think the oat and cranberry version was invented
>specifically for the American market. "Oat" sounds
>sound a lot healthier than "butter".

I have no idea, but another strange thing is that no other U.S.
company produces an oat and cranberry cookie as far as I know, and I
have looked. There are hundreds of different varieties of cookies in
the supermarket aisle.

>> They turned out not to be a local favorite, and after Christmas, they
>> went on sale for about $1.00 per tin. I bought at least a dozen tins.
>> You can still buy last year's stock through Amazon, but the cheapest
>> price is about $15.00 including shipping.
>>
>> Don't understand why they are only a Christmas specialty since they
>> are yummy with a cuppa; also why they are not enjoyed by locals
>> considering, say, that rice and beans are worshiped.
>
>Most people probably order them as gifts rather for
>themselves. A lot of Americans consider cookies
>"home made food" and feel guilty about buying
>mass-produced ones.

I don't know. Some American cookies (Oreo, for instance) are very
popular. Both oats and cranberries are an American thing, so I don't
understand the apparent dislike or lack of favor for them.

Here's another one: Ghirardelli fine chocolate made in California put
out a dark chocolate bar filled with orange cream about four or five
years ago. I have always loved chocolate and orange cream; my sister
and I would fight over them in the boxes of chocolates my mother would
usually get on special occasions.

But Ghirardelli produced a large bar of dark chocolate filled with
orange cream, and it was on the pricey side - almost $4.00 for the
bar.

We have chain of shops similar to the 99 cent stores in the States
here called "Waldo's", and a few weeks ago while I was in one of the
stores, I spied dozens and dozens of these bars for about $1.00 each
after converting from pesos.

I checked the Ghirardelli website, and if you click on the bar in
question, you are taken to a Facebook page. Some of the earlier
comments go back to 2010, but the recent ones want to know where the
bars have disappeared to!

Apparently, they did not sell, and some of the surplus was shipped to
Mexico to be sold at a discount - much to my pleasure. I now have
about thirty bars in the freezer.

--

[Peter T. Daniels]

Dansk cookies are one kind of butter cookie. They differ from run-
of-the-mill butter cookies in having an uppper coating of coarse
sugar crystals.

[John Holmes]

Guy Barry wrote:
> "Guy Barry" wrote in message news:qGS4v.41550$sa2....@fx33.am4...
>>
>> "musika" wrote in message news:lj0sg6$tf0$1...@dont-email.me...

>>>
>>> On 20/04/2014 16:59, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>
>>>> In Danish we use the English word "cooker" for a special faucet
>>>> that is mounted next to a normal faucet at a kitchen sink. The
>>>> special one will deliver boiling water on the fly and has a
>>>> safety device so kids can't turn it on. What do you and other
>>>> English-speaking persons call that?
>>>>

>>> The hot tap.
>>
>> My hot tap doesn't deliver boiling water, nor would I wish it to. I'd
>> have scalded myself by now.
>
> Bertel must be talking about one of these: the Quooker, "a 100% Dutch
> invention taking over the world".
>
> http://www.quooker.co.uk/enuk

It doesn't look as useful as the 100% Australian one which can do
boiling or chilled or sparkling filtered water from the same unit:
http://www.zipindustries.com/
I have only seen them in commercial premises such as office tea rooms,
though, not in private homes.

--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au